HC Deb 24 June 1958 vol 590 cc341-67

8.15 p.m.

Mr. John Hare

I beg to move, in page 4, line 11, at the end to insert: Provided that where it appears to the Tribunal that an agricultural activity specified in the tenant's application has not been carried on on the holding for a period of at least three years immediately preceding the making of the application the Tribunal shall not direct the landlord to carry out work in connection with that activity unless they are satisfied that the starting of the activity did not or, where the activity has not yet been started, will not constitute or form part of a substantial alteration of the type of farming carried on on the holding. The purpose of this Amendment is to prevent the tribunal from serving a direction facilitating a new or recent activity which forms a part of a substantial alteration in the type of farming, and seeks to fulfil the purpose of an Amendment sponsored in the Standing Committee by the hon. and gallant Member for Gloucestershire, South (Captain Corfield) and the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Mathew), which we accepted in principle, subject to looking again at the wording. We have, in fact, made very little alteration—the wording of this Amendment is very similar—and the changes are really more drafting ones than anything else.

Fears were expressed in the Standing Committee that the Amendment then moved would discourage new techniques in farming, but we do not think that that objection can be sustained against the wording of this Amendment. It does not affect the technique; it seeks only to prevent a landlord from being faced with the cost of equipping a holding for a substantially different type of farming as, for example, a change from arable to dairy farming.

The Amendment would not prevent the tribunal from giving a direction to enable a tenant to extend the existing line of enterprise in which he is interested, or to modify the methods which he is using. To give an example, he may want to keep cows, or to store produce in a building that is not, at the moment, used for that purpose. If the tribunal was satisfied that this was reasonable but that the activity would contravene the statutory safety, health and welfare requirements, the Amendment would not prevent the tribunal from directing the landlord to carry out any necessary work. Nor would it rule out a direction to enable a tenant to extend his present type of farming, or to make small alterations in the type of farming

It will, however, exclude a direction to provide equipment for a really substantially new type of enterprise. To give a very simple example, a direction could still be given to promote a change in the type of enterprise, but a direction could not be given that would alter the whole nature of the enterprise and, by so doing, turn property to an entirely different use.

If the tenant wants to change to a completely different type of farming, he should apply under Section 50 of the 1948 Act for any new equipment that he needs. That, he would have to pay for himself, and get compensation at the end of the tenancy for any increased value resulting from his work. That, I think, is as far as it is reasonable to go.

Mr. Champion

The Minister has said that he is carrying out his promise, made to his own back benchers during the Committee stage of the Bill. We have nothing against a Minister carrying out his promises—we think that he should—but in this case what his back benchers were seeking to do, and what the Minister has now agreed to do, was to limit the tribunal's discretion in favour of the landlord as against the tenant.

That is precisely what this Amendment does. The intention of the previous, similar Amendment was made quite clear in Committee by its supporters. But what we say is that, having already deprived the tenant of all the safeguards against the landlord that are contained in Part II of the 1947 Act, and having defeated this afternoon our new Clause to safeguard the tenant, the Minister is now going very much too far.

The right hon. Gentleman has already given a new direction to the arbitrators in favour of the landlord as against the tenant for the only purpose, as I understand, of enabling the landlord to charge a higher rent. Already, he has been operating entirely in favour of the landlord as against the tenant. It is quite clear from this Amendment that the Government intend further to limit the tribunal's powers in the only sop given to the tenant in this Bill. The Clause which we are discussing is something of a sop to the tenants to cause them to look with a little favour on the Bill which, for the rest of its main provisions, is in favour of landlords.

I am not the only person who feels that the Bill is weighted in favour of the landlord as against the tenant. I would ask the Minister to read today's Daily Express, which says that the Government have one more chance to protect the tenant farmer against unjust increases. The Daily Express merits attention in this connection, because it was the only newspaper which was fighting for the farmer, with the Labour Party, in the inter-war years in which the Minister referred a little earlier. Consideration should be given to what is said by a newspaper which in the main supports the party opposite.

As I understand Clause 4, it says, in effect, that if the tenant is being placed in jeopardy because of statutory requirements and is unable to comply with them because of the inadequacy of his fixed equipment, he shall have the right to ask the agricultural land tribunal to issue a direction to the landlord to carry out the work necessary to enable the tenant to comply with the law.

There is a very important saving provision for the landlord, for the tribunal shall not direct the landlord to carry out such work unless the tribunal is satisfied that it is reasonable so to do having regard to the landlord's responsibilities to manage the land comprised in the holding in accordance with the rules of good estate management and also to the period for which the holding may be expected to remain a separate holding and to any other material consideration … It seems to me that already in this Clause there are adequate safeguards for the landlord, and to which the tribunal has to pay attention. To all that the Minister goes on to add the words in the proposed Amendment.

Our objections to the Amendment can be briefly stated. It is true that we put these points in Committee but, as the Minister has moved an Amendment, it is right that we should mention them again. I certainly think that the Minister has not met the arguments that were put by the Opposition in Committee in this connection. For example, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said in Committee that the provision would tend to make farming a static industry. That is the last thing that any Minister of Agriculture would wish to do. Indeed, in Committee, in answer to a question of mine relating to a tenant who might wish to change from the production of beef to milk, he said: I hope that it will be the other way and that the tenant will be requiring the switch from milk to beef. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 21st May, 1958; c. 764.] The Minister was anxious that these changes should take place, and quite rightly so. I am with the Minister on all this. But every Minister of Agriculture, of whatever party, must from time to time wish to see a change from this type of production to that, from beef to milk or from milk to beef. These are the sorts of things which every Minister must be prepared to assist as public demand varies or production exceeds demand or the balance of payments position requires. Farming must be a changing industry within the limits imposed upon us by our climate, type of soil, and so forth. Nothing that we do on Report should tend to make the agricultural industry static.

The Amendment says to the farmer, "If you have been farming a certain way, so far as the fixed equipment of the farm is concerned you must continue in that way to the end of your days or to the end of the tenancy." Farms are not so easily obtained that a farmer can get another farm, as the Minister himself said earlier today. It is also true that the farmer is not an entirely free agent in this matter of what he shall produce. The Annual Review of Farm Prices, as I understand it, is intended in some cases to cause him to change from one method of farming to another. It is done by the price method.

The end price of the product is definitely intended to encourage farmers to change from what is not needed so much within our economy to something which is needed within our economy. By price differences on the end product the Minister of Agriculture is always, and rightly so, seeking to bring about a switch from this type of production to another.

I have said before—and it has been said more than once in Committee—that, in the main, this is a landlords' Bill. It is a rent Bill. It is a Bill against the tenant, in favour of the landlord. It is a bad Bill for agriculture. Now, the only provision which the Government have put in for the protection of the tenant is to be whittled away by the Amendment. We most strongly oppose it for the reasons that I have given. The Government should have left unchanged this little sop which they put into a bad Bill, and because they have not we certainly oppose the Amendment.

8.30 p.m.

Mr. Robert Mathew (Honiton)

I should like to express my gratitude to my right hon. Friend and the Parliamentary Secretary for bringing forward an Amendment which is substantially the same as that which I moved in Committee. I thank my right hon. Friend very sincerely for accepting the principle embodied in it.

I am rather astonished that the hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion) should describe it as a whittling away of the tenant's rights under the Clause. The Amendment has one object only, and that is to provide a safeguard against a possible danger. There is no question of taking away the rights of the tenant and helping the landlord. It really is a bit of party pleading about what is a very sensible and necessary safeguard to a useful Clause which seeks to prevent abuse.

The hon. Member quoted the rather lengthy speech made in Committee by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). We listened to that speech with close attention. The hon. and learned Member put forward the view that the Amendment would tend to make agriculture static. I am sorry that he is not here. I have never heard such nonsense before. If a change in husbandry in a number of holdings is desirable, and that change is reflected in the terms of the Annual Price Review, every sensible landlord will agree to the change. It is only in a case where an application is made, and where the landlord has refused to give his consent to pay for fixed equipment and there is a dispute, that difficulty arises.

It is absolutely right to insert this necessary safeguard. For those reasons I say that the arguments which have been put up by hon. Members opposite, both here and in Committee, have no validity. The hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) even said that if such an Amendment had been passed agriculture would have become so static over the last few years that the tractor would never have been introduced. All I can say to that comment is that the tractor that he must have been thinking of at that time could have had no wheels on it.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I was talking in terms of the general idea of the development of agriculture.

Mr. Mathew

All I can say is that the hon. Member was talking in terms very much broader in scope than are covered by this necessary but quite narrow Amendment. For those reasons, I hope that the House will accept the Amendment.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I should not have intervened in the debate had it not been for the remarks of the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Mathew). I agree that he knows a little about agriculture, because, in the 1946 Election, he was my opponent in South Ayrshire, and a very large section of the farmers in that constituency weighed up our relative knowledge of agriculture and decided in my favour. I understand that his reputation in his own constituency is very high because he still imports Ayrshire cattle to his farm.

As far as I can understand it, his argument is that the landlord must receive the maximum rent with the minimum amount of risk. Let us suppose that the farmer changes from one kind of agriculture to another, and makes a good thing of it. Does the landlord reduce his rent? Not at all. The whole argument of the Minister and the hon. Member for Honiton is that the landlord should get the maximum amount of rent with the minimum amount of risk. That argument is in tone with all the other arguments which have been put forward by hon. Members opposite in connection with the Bill. They are doing everything possible to give the maximum opportunity to the landlord to squeeze the farmer.

Mr. Clifford Kenyon (Chorley)

On Second Reading and in Committee the Minister emphasised his faith in the reasonableness of tribunals, and said that when the Government approached a question they did so with reason and, I think someone said, common sense. By the Amendment it seems that the Minister is not prepared to trust the tribunal to exercise reasonableness and common sense in a question of this nature which may come before it. If it is in the interests of agriculture that a drastic change should not be made in the way in which a farm is worked, surely a reasonable tribunal would not allow it. It has the power not to allow it. But here the Minister is laying down a hard and fast rule that unless "an agricultural activity" has been operated for three years the tribunal shall not allow it unless it thinks otherwise.

I think that the Amendment is unnecessary from that point of view. The tribunal itself surely has common sense and reason to argue this out.

The purpose of the Amendment is entirely different. It is to prevent the extension of dairying any further. We have at present an excess of milk production. The Price Review emphasises that year after year. We know that the Milk Marketing Board is in difficulties over the excess of milk which it is receiving. It is not in the interests of agriculture generally, and of the dairying industry, in particular, that that extension of production should be allowed.

If the Minister had advanced an argument like that I could have understood it, and, what is more, I could have accepted it, because it is true. We do not want an extension of milk production at present, but an extension of other types of agriculture. We do not want arable farming to be turned over to dairying at present. Such a change would be a drastic change coming within the scope of this Amendment. I could have understood an argument like that, but the argument which the Minister and the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Mathew) puts forward is not an argument at all. I venture to say that they are not putting forward the true reason for the Amendment, which is to prevent an extension of dairying to safeguard the dairy industry rather than to allow it to extend, as it is doing, in spite of everything that is being done to prevent it.

Mr. J. Johnson

I have given my word not to make a speech, but may I ask a question of the Minister? Will he kindly consider the words that he proposes to insert in Clause 4? Why has he made it three years? The Government do not seem to know their own mind, because they switch year after year to a new tactic in farming, changing from beef to milk, potatoes to eggs, and vice versa. Why is he specifying three years? It seems a little harsh to tenant farmers to give that length of time when they are asked almost annually to change their method of farming.

Mr. Hare

On advice, three years seemed to be a reasonable time. Therefore, that period was chosen. I think that on consideration the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. J. Johnson) will realise that it is about the right time. I do not have a great deal to add to what I said in moving the Amendment. I assure the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Kenyon) that it is not a disguised plot on my part to reduce milk production.

The reasons I have given were the reasons which justified my moving the Amendment. Under the Clause, which is a new concession to the tenant, it would be unfair to encourage people suddenly to switch into milk production because they had this particular power against the landlord which they do not have in carrying out other forms of farming. I assure the hon. Member that there is nothing sinister.

The hon. Member for Derbyshire, South-East (Mr. Champion) could not resist saying that the Bill was a Bill entirely to do the tenant down. It was rather hard that he should have made that assertion on Clause 4, although he made a slight proviso which excuses him, perhaps, of any too sinister intentions. I cannot feel that any of the arguments which have been put forward is sufficient to change my view that the Amendment is justified.

Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 183.

Division No. 171.] AYES [8.6 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Elliott, R. W. (Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.) Kerby, Capt. H. B.
Aitken, W. T. Farey-Jones, F. W. Kerr, Sir Hamilton
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathooat (Tiverton) Finlay, Graeme Kershaw, J. A.
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Fisher, Nigel Kirk, P. M.
Arbuthnot, John Fletcher-Cooke, C. Lagden, G. W.
Armstrong, C. W. Fort, R. Langford-Holt, J. A.
Atkins, H. E. Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) Leather, E. H. C.
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Gammans, Lady Leavey, J. A.
Baldwin, A. E. Garner-Evans, E. H. Leburn, W. G.
Barber, Anthony Gibson-Watt, D. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Barlow, Sir John Glover, D. Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Barter, John Godber, J. B. Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)
Batsford, Brian Gower, H. R. Linstead, Sir H. N.
Baxter, Sir Beverley Graham, Sir Fergus Llewellyn, D. T.
Beamish, Col. Tufton Grant, W. (Woodside) Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Green, A. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Gresham Cooke, R. Macdonald, Sir Peter
Bennett, Dr. Reginald Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Gurden, Harold McKibbin, Alan
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H. Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)
Bishop, F. P. Harris, Frederic (Croydon. N. W.) McLaughlin, Mrs. P.
Black, C. W. Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) Macmillan, Maurine (Halifax)
Body, R. F. Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)
Bossom, Sir Alfred Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Maddan, Martin
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hay, John Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)
Boyle, Sir Edward Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)
Brains, B. R. Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Henderson, John (Cathcart) Markham, Major Sir Frank
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Marlowe, A. A. H.
Bryan, P.
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Hesketh, R. F. Marshall, Douglas
Burden, F. F. A. Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. Mathew, R.
Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Mawby, R. L.
Campbell, Sir David Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.
Cary, Sir Robert Holland-Martin, C. J. Medlicott, Sir Frank
Chichester-Clark, R. Hope, Lord John Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Hornby, R. P. Mott-Radclyffe. Sir Charles
Cole, Norman Hornsby-Smoth, Miss M. P. Nabarro, G. D. N.
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Horobin, Sir Ian Nairn, D. L. S.
Cooke, Robert Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Neave, Airey
Cooper-Key, E. M. Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. Nicholson, Sir Godfrey (Farnham)
Corfield, Capt. F. V. Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Hulbert, Sir Norman Noble, Michael (Argyll)
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Hurd, A. R. Nugent, G. R. H.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Cunningham, Knox Hyde, Montgomery Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Currie, G. B. H. Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Osborne, C.
Davidson, Viscountess Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Page, R. G.
D'Avidgor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Deedes, W. F. Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Partridge, E.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) Peel, W. J.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Drayson, G. B. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Pike, Miss Mervyn
du Cann, E. D. L. Joseph, Sir Keith Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Duncan, Sir James Kaberry, D. Pitman, I. J.
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) Keegan, D. Pott, H. P.
Powell, J. Enoch Spearman, Sir Alexander Tweedsmuir, Lady
Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) Speir, R. M. Vane, W. M. F.
Ramsden, J. E. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard Vickers, Miss Joan
Rawlinson, Peter Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Redmayne, M. Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Rees-Davies, W. R. Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm Wall, Patrick
Renton, D. L. M. Storey, S. Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)
Ridsdale, J. E. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley) Studholme, Sir Henry Webbe, Sir H.
Robertson, Sir David Summers, Sir Spencer Webster, David
Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington) Whitelaw, W. S. I.
Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Roper, Sir Harold Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard Teeling, W. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Russell, R. S. Temple, John M. Wood, Hon. R.
Sharples, R. C. Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Shepherd, William Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Smithers, Peter (Winchester) Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.) Mr. Oakahott and
Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood) Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) Mr. Brooman-White.
NOES
Ainsley, J. W. Hale, Leslie Oswald, T.
Albu, A. H. Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Owen, W. J.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Hamilton, W. W. Paget, R. T.
Awbery, S. S. Hannan, W. Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Deanne Valley)
Bacon, Miss Alice Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Baird, J. Hastings, S. Palmer, A. M. F.
Balfour, A. Hayman, F. H. Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)
Ballenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) Parker, J.
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Herbison, Miss M. Paton, John
Bann, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S. E.) Hewitson, Capt. M. Pearson, A.
Benson, Sir George Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) Peart, T. F.
Blackburn, F. Pentland, N.
Blenkinsop, A. Holman, P. Popplewell, E.
Blyton, W. R. Holt, A. F. Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Boardman, H. Houghton, Douglas Probert, A. R.
Bonham Carter, Mark Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) Proctor, W. T.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Howell, Denis (All Saints) Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S. W.) Hoy, J. H. Randell, H. E.
Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Hubbard, T. F. Rankin, John
Bowles, F. G. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Redhead, E. C.
Brockway, A. F. Hunter, A. E. Reid, William
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Rhodes, H.
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Burke, W. A. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Burton, Miss F. E. Janner, B. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Carmichael, J. Johnson, James (Rugby) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Champion, A. J. Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield) Royle, C.
Chetwynd, G. R. Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Clunie, J. Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Coldrick, W. Kenyon, C. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) King, Dr. H. M. Skeffington, A. M.
Crossman, R. H. S. Lawson, G. M. Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Cullen, Mrs. A. Ledger, R. J. Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Lee, Frederick (Newton) Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Darling, George (Hillsborough) Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Sorensen, R. W.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Lewis, Arthur Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Logan, D. G. Sparks, J. A.
Deer, G. MacColl, J. E. Spriggs, Leslie
Delargy, H. J. MacDermot, Niall Steele, T.
Dodds, N. N. McGhee, H. G. Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch) McGovern, J. Stonehouse, John
Dye, S. McInnes, J. Stones, W. (Consett)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. McLeavy, Frank Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Mahon, Simon Sylvester, G. O.
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mainwaring, W. H. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.) Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Finch, H. J. Mann, Mrs. Jean Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Fitch, E. A. Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Tourney, F.
Fletcher, Eric Mason, Roy Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Forman, J. C. Messer, Sir F. Usborne, H. C.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mikardo, Ian Viant, S. P.
George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then) Mitchison, G. R. Wade, D. W.
Gibson, C. W. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Watkins, T. E.
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Mort, D. L. Weitzman, D.
Greenwood, Anthony Moss, R. Welis, Percy (Faversham)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Moyle, A. Wheeldon, W. E.
Grey, C. F. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Wilkins, W. A.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) Willey, Frederick
Grimond, J. Orbach, M. Williams, David (Neath)
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. Zilliacus, K.
Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.) Woof, R. E.
Winterbottom, Richard Yates, V. (Ladywood) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. J. Taylor and Mr. J. T. Price.
Division No. 172.] AYES [8.42 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) Nugent, G. R. H.
Aitken, W. T. Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) Oakshott, H. D.
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Armstrong, C. W. Hay, John Osborne, C.
Atkins, H. E. Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Page, R. G.
Baldock, Lt,-Cmdr. J. M. Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Baldwin, A. E. Henderson, John (Cathcart) Partridge, E.
Barlow, Sir John Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Peel, W. J.
Barter, John Hesketh, R. F. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Batsford, Brian Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. Pike, Miss Mervyn
Baxter, Sir Beverley Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Beamish, Col. Tufton Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) Pitman, I. J.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Holland-Martin, C. J. Pott, H. P.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Holt, A. F. Powell, J. Enoch
Bennett, Dr. Reginald Hope, Lord John Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Hornby, R. P. Ramsden, J. E.
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Rawlinson, Peter
Bishop, F. P. Horobin, Sir Ian Redmayne, M.
Black, C. W. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Body, R. F. Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. Renton, D. L. M.
Bonham Carter, Mark Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Ridsdale, J. E.
Bossom, Sir Alfred Hulbert, Sir Norman Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Hurd, A. R. Robertson, Sir David
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Boyle, Sir Edward Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Braine, B. R. Irvine, Bryant Godrnan (Rye) Roper, Sir Harold
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Russell, R. S.
Brooman-White, R. C. Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Sharples, R. C.
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Shepherd, William
Burden, F. F. A. Joseph, Sir Keith Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saflron Walden) Keegan, D. Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Cary, Sir Robert Kerby, Capt. H. B. Smyth, Brig, Sir John (Norwood)
Chichester-Clark, R. Kerr, Sir Hamilton Spearman, Sir Alexander
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Kershaw, J. A. Speir, R. M.
Cole, Norman Kirk, P. M. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Lagden, G. W. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Cooke, Robert Langford-Holt, J. A. Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Corfield, Capt. F. V. Leather, E. H. C. Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Leavey, J. A. Storey, S.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Leburn, W. G. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Studholme, Sir Henry
Cunningham, Knox Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Summers, Sir Spencer
Currie, G. B. H. Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)
Davidson, Viscountess Linstead, Sir H. N. Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Llewellyn, D. T. Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Deedes, W. F. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Teeling, W.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Temple, John M.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Macdonald, Sir Peter Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Drayson, G. B. Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
du Cann, E. D. L. McKibbin, Alan Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Duncan, Sir James Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Elliott, R. W. (Ne'castle upon Tyne, N.) Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) Tweedsmuir, Lady
Farey-Jones, F. W. Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Vane, W. M. F.
Finlay, Graeme Maddan, Martin Vickers, Miss Joan
Fisher, Nigel Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) Wade, D. W.
Fort, R. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) Markham, Major Sir Frank Wall, Patrick
Gammans, Lady Marlowe, A. A. H. Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)
Garner-Evans, E. H. Marshall, Douglas Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Glover, D. Mathew, R. Webbe, Sir H.
Godber, J. B. Mawby, R. L. Webster, David
Gower, H. R. Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C. Whitelaw, W. S. I.
Graham, Sir Fergus Medlicott, Sir Frank Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Grant, W. (Woodside) Morrison, John (Salisbury) Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Green, A. Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Gresham Cooke, R. Nabarro, G. D. N. Wood, Hon. R.
Grimond J. Nairn, D. L. S. Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Neave, Airey
Gurden, Harold Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H. Noble, Michael (Argyll) Mr. Bryan and Mr. Gibson-Watt.
NOES
Ainsley, J. W. Hastings, S. Paton, John
Albu, A. H. Hayman, F. H. Peart, T. F.
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis) Pentland, N.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Herbison, Miss M. Popplewell, E.
Awbery, S. S. Hewitson, Capt. M. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Bacon, Miss Alice Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Baird, J. Holman, P. Probert, A. R.
Balfour, A. Houghton, Douglas Proctor, W. T.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Howell, Denis (All Saints) Randall, H. E.
Blackburn, F. Hoy, J. H. Rankin, John
Blenkinsop, A. Hubbard, T. F. Redhead, E. C.
Blyton, W. R. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Rhodes, H.
Boardman, H. Hunter, A. E. Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S. W.) Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Bowles, F. G. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Rogers, George (Kensington, N)
Brockway, A. F. Janner, B. Royle, C.
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Johnson, James (Rugby) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Brown, Thomas (Ince) Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield) Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Burke, W. A. Jones, David (The Hartlepool) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Burton, Miss F. E. Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Skeffington, A. M.
Carmichael, J. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Champion, A. J. Kenyon, C. Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Chetwynd, G. R. Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Clunie, J. King, Dr. H. M. Snow, J. W.
Coldrick, W. Lawson, G. M. Sorensen, R. W.
Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury) Ledger, R. J. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Sparks, J. A.
Crossman, R. H. S. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Spriggs, Leslie
Cullen, Mrs. A. Lewis, Arthur Steele, T.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Logan, D. G. Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Darling, George (Hillsborough) MacColl, J. E. Stonehouse, John
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) MacDerrnot, Niall Stones, W. (Consett)
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) McGhee, H. G. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Deer, G. McInnes, J. Sylvester, G. O.
Delargy, H. J. McLeavy, Frank Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Dodds, N. N. Mahon, Simon Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch) Mainwaring, W. H. Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Dye, S. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Mann, Mrs. Jean Tomney, F.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Mason, Roy Usborne, H. C.
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Messer, Sir F. Viant, S. P.
Finch, H. J. Mikardo, Ian Watkins, T. E.
Fitch, E. A. Mitchison, G. R. Weitzman, D.
Fletcher, Eric Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Forman, J. C. Mort, D. L. Wheeldon, W. E.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Moss, R. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then) Moyle, A. Wilkins, W. A.
Gibson, C. W. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Willey, Frederick
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon) Williams, David (Neath)
Greenwood, Anthony Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Orbach, M. Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Grey, C. F. Oswald, T. Winterbottom, Richard
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Owen, W. J. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Paget, R. T. Woof, R. E.
Hale, Leslie Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) Yates, V. (Ladywood)
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Zilliacus, K.
Hamilton, W. W. Palmer, A. M. F.
Hannan, W. Pannell, Charles (Leeds W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Parker, J. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.
Mr. Willey

I beg to move, in page 4, line 17, to leave out from "management" to "and" in line 19.

This is an Amendment which explains itself. What we are doing by this Amendment is to seek to reject the second thoughts of the Government. The Government reworded this part of the Clause, which in general we welcome, and we believe that in so amending the Clause they have made it less effective from the point of view of the tenant. It is for that reason that we move the Amendment.

What this subsection does is to make it mandatory—I stress this because the word "shall" is used—on the tribunals not to direct the landlord to carry out the work unless they are satisfied that it is reasonable so to do having regard to the lardlord's responsibilities to manage the land comprised in the holding in accordance with the rules of good estate management"— and here we come to the words we propose should be left out— and also to the period for which the holding may be expected to remain a separate holding and to any other material consideration". We believe that this provision would be much more effective and much fairer if it stopped at the word "management". We do not think that the additional words will help. We believe that they will serve only to make the decision of the tribunal more difficult. As we said in Committee, we do not think this will be a consideration which will arise in the majority of cases, but here is a matter which is placed upon the tribunal for its consideration. We think that if the words remain they could operate to the detriment of the tenant. If the landlord chooses to say—and we have been considering the provision in Clause 3 (2, b)—that he intends to seek to end the period of this holding as a separate holding, then the tribunal may find it very difficult to make a direction under this Clause.

This matter was considered in Committee. Unless the Government have third thoughts, reject their second thoughts and recognise that this is another act to the detriment of the tenant, I shall have no alternative but to ask my hon. Friends to support this Amendment by a Division.

Mr. Champion

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. Godber

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) for putting his point so briefly and clearly. He talks about the Government having third thoughts. I can assure him that the Government are always full of thought on this and on all other matters. He need have no fears on that score whatever.

He says that these words are less effective from the point of view of the tenant. I took very careful note of what the hon. Member said in Committee on this. I have looked again at what he said, and I am satisfied that these words are necessary to clarify the position and to show exactly what we are seeking to achieve here. I think it is right that we should make it abundantly clear that if there is a case in which it is anticipated that within a relatively short period of time the holding is to be amalgamated with another it would be wrong not only from the point of view of the landlord but from the national point of view as a waste of capital expenditure if insistence were laid on putting up buildings wanted for only a short period of time.

After all, in Part II of the Agriculture Act, 1957, dealing with farm improvement schemes, we made it clear that we would not grant-aid schemes where it would be likely that there would be an amalgamation which would upset the holding. We provided that a considerable period of time ahead must be clearly seen before the money was to be spent. If that is right from the national point of view, and from the point of view of grant, it is right that we should not put an imposition on the landlord to provide buildings which would be white elephants in a short space of time.

We could well have a case where a landlord has in mind that he has a small uneconomic holding which he wishes to amalgamate with another larger holding to provide a better economic unit. He has on that holding an elderly tenant and he has decided that it would be unfair and unreasonable to dispossess that tenant, as he could seek to do under one of the provisos in Clause 3. He has decided that it would be better to leave the matter until that tenant has retired, when the holding would become available and he could then amalgamate it. Then this hypothetical tenant gets into some trouble about his buildings for milk production purposes and seeks to invoke this Clause. What would happen then, probably, would be that the landlord, unwilling to carry out the work, would seek to carry out the amalgamation. Thus, instead of helping the tenant, the Amendment would precipitate some action on the part of the landlord to secure amalgamation.

I put that as a case that could happen, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Sunderland, North would not wish it to happen for one moment. It is not for any dogmatic reason that we feel unwilling to accede to his point of view, but for sound practical reasons. I would remind the hon. Member also that when this matter was considered in Committee no difference of opinion was expressed by a Division. Therefore, I feel somewhat surprised that the hon. Member feels it necessary to divide the House against this proposal on this occasion. These words can be of help to the tenant in the sort of case that I have cited. They are certainly necessary to express clearly the Bill's intention, and I strongly advise the House that the words should be allowed to remain in the Bill.

Mr. Dye

Whereas the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has tried to make out a case for the first few words of the lines which it is proposed to leave out— … also to the period for which the holding may be expected to remain a separate holding … —he has done nothing about the other words— and to any other material consideration … The hon. Gentleman has not given the House an inkling of what is meant by those latter words. He is so obsessed with this idea that we must amalgamate existing holdings that he wants to obliterate all the small holdings which he would describe as uneconomic holdings. This is the one great obsession that the Government have in the Bill and in the administration of their subsidies for farm improvements.

9.0 p.m.

I am sure that they are wrong. There are many very large holdings which would be more economic to this country if they were divided amongst those skilled farm workers who could make full use of them. Nowhere in this Bill does the Minister intend to tackle the problem of the one man or the large company who is getting ownership and control over large sections of the land of this country. The obsession that we must make provision whereby any landlord can get a scheme to amalgamate holdings and reduce the number of tenant farmers in this country will lead to the ruination of British agriculture, make no mistake about it. For our agriculture depends not only upon our land but also upon the quality and the knowledge of the people in charge of it.

You know the old saying, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that these companies have neither a bottom to be kicked nor a soul to be damned, but each man who has given of his knowledge and of his skill and of his life to improve the quality of his land and the output of his products is a man who, once destroyed, can never be replaced. Yet these people want to destroy the very lifeblood of British agriculture, whether it is in the Highlands of Scotland or in the fields of Norfolk. Therefore, I want to oppose most strongly this incessant desire on the part of the Government to make provision whereby each landlord could get rid of the old man or refuse to carry out an improvement because, when they get rid of the old man, they can reduce the number of holdings.

That is one aspect of the problem. Nowhere has the Joint Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister of Agriculture tried to say in what way "any other material consideration" is a limiting factor. Where does it apply? Of course, the tribunal can direct the landlord in such a way, in taking any other material consideration into account, as to enable him to do anything. It is giving all power to the landlord. We could rightly have expected the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, if not to divest himself of the obsession of himself and his Minister to amalgamate holdings as far as they can, to explain the meaning of that phrase and to tell us what are the limitations that can be put upon it.

Mr. Godber

I shall be happy to deal with the two points the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye) has raised. The first one he referred to was the phrase "any other material consideration". The best thing I can do is to refer him to column 767 of the Report of Standing Committee A. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), whom I am happy to quote, said: We all know, the Lord Advocate better than anyone, that the words 'any other material consideration' are included to make it clear that the Tribunal is not to direct its mind exclusively to this matter, but must turn its attention to the rules of good estate management."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 21st May, 1958; c. 767.] The hon. Gentleman stated the position clearly and succinctly, and I am grateful to him. Perhaps he will have a word with his hon. Friend afterwards. For those reasons, I did not seek to detain the House at this stage. I was ready to rest myself on what the hon. Gentleman had said, and I hope his hon. Friend will accept it.

On the other point on which the hon. Gentleman waxed eloquent, in phrases that I do not propose to follow, he referred to the claim he makes that we are seeking all the time to amalgamate holdings. We are doing nothing of the kind. We are making it possible for that to take place where uneconomic holdings exist. I am sure the hon. Gentleman does not want uneconomic holdings to continue, because this merely means that there are people continuing to try to obtain a living from land out of which they cannot obtain a living. Where they could obtain a reasonable living we should not seek to prevent them.

May I call in aid the word of his right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). During a Committee stage debate on the 1957 Act, the right hon. Gentleman said: There happen to be already about 210,000 farms in this country of between one and 50 acres … That is a very large number of very small farms … I do not think that we should extend that number"— this was said by a right hon. Friend of the hon. Gentleman— We should be on the return journey, unifying small and uneconomic units so that both the nation and the individual producers may get whatever benefit society as a whole is willing to give to agriculture."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 2nd May, 1957; c. 214–5.]

Mr. Emrys Hughes

And not landlords.

Mr. Godber

I am dealing specifically with the point raised by the hon. Member for Norfolk, South-West—

Mr. Dye

No.

Mr. Godber

Indeed, I am. The hon. Member's point was that it was wrong to assist amalgamations. That is as I understood him. I have quoted his right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley as saying that he felt there was a case for reducing the number of units. I have dealt with those two points by quoting from his right hon. and hon. Friends. If the hon. Gentleman will not accept my words, I hope he will accept theirs.

Mr. Willey

Apart from the quotation which the Parliamentary Secretary kindly made from a contribution of mine during a Standing Committee discussion, his replies have been thoroughly disappointing. All he said in his first reply would be met by the Clause as we seek to amend it. If the obligation were placed on the tribunal—we do not object to this—to see that the direction should be in accordance with the rules of good estate management, all the considerations raised

by the Parliamentary Secretary would be met. We object to further provision being made, and for that reason, on practical grounds, we propose the insertion of these words.

During the proceedings in the Standing Committee to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, we were considering a number of matters at the same time, and for that reason we did not seek to divide the Committee on this question. But having had an opportunity further to consider it, we believe that on practical grounds it is wrong to place this burden on the tribunal. There is also placed on the tribunal the consideration of matters of Government policy. The Parliamentary Secretary has already indicated that. I delicately hinted at some things of which my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South-West (Mr. Dye) has spoken with good forthright Norfolk vigour, but the Parliamentary Secretary has disturbed us even more than he did in Committee. Then he disturbed us by talking about over security. Now he has disturbed us by talking about amalgamation in this context.

We welcome this Clause as giving certain powers to the tenant which he did not possess before. But when the Parliamentary Secretary talks about amalgamation, even in this context, I say to him in all seriousness that the question of amalgamation is extremely difficult and complex. It brings in many social consequences which must be considered. If, as appears to be the case, the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that this is a matter which should be left to individual landlords, he will run against the full-blooded opposition of my right hon. and hon. Friends and, I think, most members of the agriculture industry. We say, therefore, that we are more disturbed than when we began to consider this Amendment, and we have no alternative but to divide the House.

Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 212, Noes 186.

Division No. 173.] AYES [9.8 p.m.
Agnew, Sir Peter Atkins, H. E. Batsford, Brian
Aitken, W. T. Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. Baxter, Sir Beverley
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) Baldwin, A. E. Beamish, Col. Tufton
Anstruther-Gray, Major Sir William Barlow, Sir John Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)
Armstrong, C. W. Barter, John Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald Holland-Martin, C. J. Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) Hope, Lord John Partridge, E.
Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel Hornby, R. P. Peel, W. J.
Bishop, F. P. Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Black, C. W. Horobin, Sir Ian Pike, Miss Mervyn
Body, R. F. Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Pilkington, Capt. R. A.
Bossom, Sir Alfred Hughes Hallet, Vice-Admiral J. Pott, H. P.
Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hughes-Young, M. H. C. Powell, J. Enooh
Boyle, Sir Edward Hulbert, Sir Norman Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Braine, B. R. Kurd, A. R. Ramsden, J. E.
Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.) Rawlinson, Peter
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry Redmayne, M.
Brooman-White, R. C. Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton) Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Renton, D. L. M.
Bryan, P. Jennings, J. C. (Burton) Ridsdaie, J. E.
Burden, F. F. A. Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam) Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden) Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Cary, Sir Robert Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Chichester-Clark, R. Joseph, Sir Keith Roper, Sir Harold
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) Keegan, D. Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Cole, Norman Kerby, Capt. H. B. Russell, R. S.
Conant, Maj. Sir Roger Kerr, Sir Hamilton Scott-Miller, comdr. R.
Cooke, Robert Kershaw, J. A. Sharples, R. C.
Corfield, Capt. F. V. Kirk, P. M. Shepherd, William
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Lagden, G. W. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Smithers, Peter (Winchester)
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Langford-Holt, J. A. Smyth, Brig. Sir John (Norwood)
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Leather, E. H. C. Spearman, Sir Alexander
Cunningham, Knox Leavey, J. A. Speir, R. M.
Currie, G. B. H. Leburn, W. G. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Davidson, Viscountess Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) Steward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Deedes, W. F. Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Linstead, Sir H. N. Storey, S.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Drayson, G. B. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Studholme, Sir Henry
du Cann, E. D. L. Macdonald, Sir Peter Summers, Sir Spencer
Duncan, Sir James Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington)
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) McKibbin, Alan Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Elliot, R. W. (Ne'casle-upon Tyne, N.) Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) Taylor, William (Bradford, N.)
Farey-Jones, F. W. McLaughlin, Mrs. P. Teeling, W.
Finlay, Graeme McLean, Neil (Inverness) Temple, John M.
Fisher, Nigel Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax) Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Fort, R. Maddan, Martin Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) Maitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) Thompson, R. (Croydon, S.)
Gammans, Lady Maitland, Hon Patrick (Lanark) Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.)
Garner-Evans, E. H. Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hon. Sir R. Turner, H. F. L.
Godber, J. B. Markham, Major Sir Frank Tweedsmuir, Lady
Gower, H. R. Marlowe, A. A. H. Vane, W. M. F.
Graham, Sir Fergus Marshall, Douglas Vickers, Miss Joan
Grant, W (Woodside) Mathew, R. Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F.
Green, A. Maudling, Rt. Hon. R. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Gresham Cooke, R. Mawby, R. L. Wall, Patrick
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C. Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester)
Gurden, Harold Medlicott, Sir Frank Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth)
Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H. Morrison, John (Salisbury) Webbe, Sir H.
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.) Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles Webster, David
Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) Nabarro, G. D. N. Whitelaw, W. S. I.
Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.) Nairn, D. L. S. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Hay, John Neave, Airey Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Heaid, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. Noble, Michael (Argyll) Wood, Hon. R.
Henderson, John (Cathcart) Nugent, G. R. H.
Henderson-Stewart, Sir James Oakshott, H. D. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hesketh, R. F. O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Colonel J. H. Harrison and
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Osborne, C. Mr. Gibson-Watt.
Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n) Page, R. G.
NOES
Ainsley, J. W. Bonham Carter, Mark Coldrick, W.
Albu, A. H. Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S. W) Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Allen, Scholefield (Crowe) Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) Crossman, R. H. S.
Awbery, S. S. Bowles, F. G. Cullen, Mrs. A.
Bacon, Miss Alice Brockway, A. F. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
Baird, J. Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Darling, George (Hillsborough)
Balfour, A. Brown, Thomas (Ince) Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Burke, W. A. Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.) Burton, Miss F. E. Deer, G.
Blackburn, F. Carmichael, J. Delargy, H. J.
Blenkinsop, A. Champion, A. J. Dodds, N. N.
Blyton, W. R. Chetwynd, G. R. Dugdale, Rt. Hn. John (W. Brmwch)
Boardman, H. Clunie, J. Dye, S.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. King, Dr. H. M. Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) Lawson, G. M. Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Ledger, R. J. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Edwards, Robert (Bilston) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Lever, Harold (Cheetham) Royle, C.
Finch, H. J. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Fitch, E. A. Logan, D. C. Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Fletcher, Eric MacColl, J. E. Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Forman, J. C. MacDermot, Niall Skeffington, A. M.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) McGhee, H. C. Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
George, Lady Megan Lloyd (Car'then) McInnes, J. Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Gibson, C. W. McLeavy, Frank Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Snow, J. W.
Greenwood, Anthony Mahon, Simon Sorensen, R. W.
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Grey, C. F. Mann, Mrs. Jean Sparks, J. A.
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. Spriggs, Leslie
Griffiths, Rt Hon. James (Llanelly) Mason, Roy Steele, T.
Grimond, J. Messer, Sir F. Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mitchison, G. R. Storehouse, John
Hamilton, W. W. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Stones, W. (Consett)
Hannan, W. Mort, D. L. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) Moss, R. Sylvester, G. O.
Hastings, S. Moyle, A. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Hayman, F. H. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Herbison, Miss M. Noel-Baker, Francis (8windon) Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Hewitson, Capt. M. Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Hobson, C. R. (Keighley) Orbach, M. Tomney, F.
Holman, P. Oswald, T. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Holt, A. F. Owen, W. J. Usborne, H. C.
Houghton, Douglas Paget, R. T. Wade, D. W.
Howell, Denis (All Saints) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) Watkins, T. E.
Hoy, J. H. Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Weitzman, D.
Hubbard, T. F. Palmer, A. M. F. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Hughes, Emrys, (S. Ayrshire) Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) Wheeldon, W. E.
Hunter, A. E. Parker, J. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Hynd, H. (Accrington) Paton, John Wilkins, W. A.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Peart, T. F. Willey, Frederick
Irving, Sydney (Dartford) Pentland, N. Williams, David (Neath)
Isaacs, Rt, Hon. G. A. Poppiewell, E. Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Janner, B. Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Johnson, James (Rugby) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Winterbottom, Richard
Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefleid) Probert, A. R. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Jones, David (The Hartlepools) Prootor, W. T. Woof, R. E.
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) Pursey, Cmdr. H. Yates, V. (Ladywood)
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Randall, H. E. Zilliacus, K.
Kenyon, C. Rankin, John
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Redhead, E. C. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.
Mr. Godber

I beg to move in line 35, to leave out "specified therein" and to insert "allowed by the Tribunal".

I think it would be convenient if we could discuss at the same time the Government Amendment in line 39.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

That would be in order, if it meets the convenience of the House.

Mr. Godber

I should first apologise to the House in that when a similar Amendment arose in Standing Committee I said that it was purely drafting. That was an error. I should not have said it, and when questions were raised I withdrew what I had said. The truth is that I had not the papers before me at the time and I thought that the Amendment was purely drafting. In fact we had it in mind that we should have to insert a proviso to meet this point. I had no intention to mislead the Committee.

This is a paving Amendment to the longer Amendment which takes the words of an Amendment moved in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe). When that Amendment was moved I said that I would consider it. I was satisfied that a case had been made out and I said that I would look at the wording suggested and would move an Amendment on Report. This is what we seek to do. The main Amendment makes it possible to give an extended period to the landlord where that is justified to enable him to carry out the work.

The wording is … will not allow sufficient time both for the completion of preliminary arrangements necessary or desirable in connection with the work required by the direction … and for the carrying out of the said work. We merely want to ensure that if some special circumstance arises that would prevent the landlord from carrying out his duties under subsection (1) he shall be given the opportunity of further time. For example, very severe weather could prevent him carrying out the work for a period, or difficulties could arise if some materials were required but their arrival was delayed. It would apply where there was a genuine case.

We do not seek in any way to let the landlord get out of his obligations at all, but we believe that a case has been made out, where a genuine need has been proved, for an extension of time, and we thought it right to provide for it. We felt that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) had made out his case in Committee, and it is for that reason that I now move the Amendment.

Mr. Champion

We thank the Parliamentary Secretary for moving his Amendment in such a fair way. We regard it as a reasonable one, and shall be happy to facilitate its passage.

Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe (Windsor)

I only want to thank my hon. Friend for carrying out his pledge in Committee in respect of the Amendment I then moved.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Emrys Hughes

I beg to move, in page 4, line 39, at the end to insert: and any loss or damage which the tenant may have suffered by reason of the failure of the landlord to carry out the work by the date specified in the order". The Minister has just told us that the Government do not wish to do anything to assist a landlord to get out of his obligations, so I see no reason why they should not accept this Amendment. Surely, a tenant is entitled to justice and compensation if the neglect has been proved to be the fault of the landlord. One can easily imagine the case where a farmer has not been able to develop his herd of milk cows because of the failure of the landlord to provide the necessary buildings.

The attitude of hon. Members opposite to compensation is, surely, that in the case of, say, the National Coal Board or any of the other nationalised industries, they would insist on the maximum reasonable compensation being paid to any individual who suffered as a result of a nationalised industry's neglect. We wish this principle to be applied, and that is the whole purpose of this Amendment.

Why should the landlord escape from his liabilities when he has failed to carry out his legal obligations? I suggest that the Government should adopt exactly the same attitude here, and say that they propose to accept the Amendment because they do not wish to do anything to assist a landlord to get rid of his obligations.

Mr. Peart

I beg to second the Amendment.

In their previous Amendments we have had examples of the Government's desire to help the landlord, and my hon. Friends have been sympathetic. We hope that there will be some reciprocity, and that the Parliamentary Secretary will be sympathetic to an Amendment which, after all, gives the tenant farmer some rights, and certain safeguards in certain circumstances.

If the landlord has failed to carry out his legal obligations we feel that the tenant should receive compensation. This Amendment should be supported by every hon. Member because we on these benches have been conciliatory to the landlord on previous Amendments and we merely ask hon. Members opposite to be sympathetic towards us. That is a reasonable demand. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will be objective and will agree that the tenant should have security if any damage is caused to his holding or farm unit. I hope, therefore, that the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that this is a reasonable request.

Sir J. Duncan

I am at a loss to understand the reason for this Amendment. In Committee, the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) moved an Amendment in exactly the same terms. My hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said: … I am advised that it is unnecessary to have an Amendment of this sort in order to obtain what the hon. Member wishes. Later, the hon. Member for South Ayrshire said: … in view of the otherwise sympathetic reply of the Minister, and in view of the fact that the case put shows that the legal phraseology is already contained in the Clause, I do not wish to press the point. I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment"—[OFFICINT, REPORT, Standing Committee A, 22nd May, 1958; c. 779 and 785.] Now the hon. Gentleman moves an Amendment in the same form on Report and it seems to me to be wasting the time of the House.

Mr. Peart

May I, Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House ask a question? Surely it is the normal procedure when a matter is reported back from Committee that we look afresh at the arguments and that if, in the changed circumstances, hon. Members feel that something which should have been put into the Bill during the Committee stage has not been put into the Bill, it is right to look at the matter again. That is no reflection on my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes). It is merely in response to an intimation by the Parliamentary Secretary that he would be prepared to look afresh at the matter on Report.

Mr. Speaker

I understood that there was an undertaking to reconsider the matter.

Mr. Peart

Yes, that is so.

Mr. Godber

I undertook to look at this matter again merely to satisfy myself that the points that I had put forward were correct in the light of the comments that had been made. I am happy to give the assurance that I have looked into this matter and that I stand by what I said in Committee. Therefore, my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) is quite right; there is no fresh point here.

What I said then was quite valid, that under the Clause the tenant already has security. As my hon. Friend has reminded the House, in column 779 of the OFFICIAL REPORT I am reported as having pointed out that under the Clause the tenant already has security.

While, as I pointed out in Committee, I am sympathetic with the desire of the hon. Member for South Ayrshire in this respect, I am assured that there is no need to write in words of this kind because the tenant has his rights to claim damages against the landlord. I think that this meets the case which hon. Members have in mind.

9.30 p.m.

The hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) said that because hon. Members on his side of the House had been sympathetic to provisions relating to the landlords we should be sympathetic to this Amendment, which relates to tenants. I would remind him that we inserted the Clause for the very reason that we are sympathetic to tenants. The Clause deals with the help which is to be given to tenants, and nothing else. We have shown our sympathy to tenants quite conclusively.

I can only repeat what I said in Committee. I have looked at the matter again in the light of what was said then, and I still say that there is no need to include words of this nature, because a tenant already has his rights under the Clause. Therefore, I cannot recommend the House to accept the Amendment.

Mr. Willey

I am not sure that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's reply is yet satisfactory. The hon. Member for South Angus (Sir J. Duncan) surely realises that this was a matter which quite properly fell to be reconsidered by the Government after the Committee stage. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary will remember that we also had a discussion about the word "same". We cannot discuss that now, because the Amendment relating to it has not been selected, but we had a discussion about the meaning of the Clause.

In Committee, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary also said: In any case it is covered and the tenant can sue for damages".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee A, 22nd May, 1458; c. 780.] If the hon. Gentleman is saying that he is satisfied merely in the sense that the the tenant can recover damages I do not think that my hon. Friends will be content, because they are seeking to provide that the tribunal should be able to enforce this provision. If there is a difference of view between us we would stick to our point that it is unfair to oblige the tenant to rely upon his right to damages.

It is for that reason that I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is saying that as he understands the Clause it would not interfere with the tenant's right to proceed for damages. My hon. Friends are seeking to go beyond that and say that the tribunal should be able to deal with the matter and that the tenant should, therefore, have a much simpler remedy.

Mr. Godber

I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. It is important that we should be clear what we are saying. The hon. Member is quite right; I am saying that under the Clause any work covered by the tribunal's direction would be regarded as incorporated in the tenancy agreement. That was what I thought I said; it is certainly what I intended to say. Therefore, the tenant will have the same right to claim damages from the landlord if he fails to carry out his obligation under a direction as he would if the landlord had failed to fulfil a term of the tenancy agreement itself. That is an adequate safeguard. If the landlord falls down on his duties the tenant has a clear statutory right. I would have thought that that was sufficient.

The hon. Member referred to the word "same". I must not go into that matter. I merely say that I have looked into it very carefully and I have been assured that there is no need to alter that point of drafting.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment made: In page 4, line 39, at end insert: (4) The Tribunal, on an application by the landlord, may extend or further extend the period specified in a direction under subsection (1) of this section if it is shown to their satisfaction that the period so specified, or that period as previously extended under this subsection, as the case may be, will not allow sufficient time both for the completion of preliminary arrangements necessary or desirable in connection with the work required by the direction (including, in appropriate cases, the determination of an application by the landlord for a grant out of moneys provided by Parliament in respect of that work) and for the carying out of the said work.—[Mr. Hare.]