§ The mental state of every person charged with murder shall be examined by two doctors of whom one shall be a qualified psychiatrist who is not a member of the prison medical service and copies of their reports shall be supplied to the defence fourteen days before the trial.—[Mr. Anthony Greenwood.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ Mr. Anthony GreenwoodI beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
Many hon. Members will recall that Recommendation (28) of the Royal Commission reads as follows:
In England and Wales the mental state of every prisoner charged with murder should be examined by two doctors, of whom one at least should be a psychiatrist of standing who is not a member of the prison medical service and the other usually an experienced member of that service.The present practice, as I understand, is as follows. In England and Wales the prosecution in a murder case relies on the prison medical officer for its information about the prisoner's state of mind. In Scotland, however, only one prison—at any rate that was so at the time of the Royal Commission—has a full-time 952 medical officer, and it is, therefore, the practice for the prosecution to arrange for two psychiatrists to see every prisoner accused of murder.The obvious advantage of the English system is that it provides for continuous professional observation of a man or woman charged with murder. However, the English system also has three disadvantages. First, the prisoner may be in a prison where there is only a part-time medical officer. Secondly, even full-time medical officers may have no psychiatric training or experience. Thirdly, it is, I think, most desirable that any evidence about a prisoner's state of mind which is presented by the Crown should obviously bear the stamp of independence of judgment, and, although one would not for a moment suggest that prison medical officers are biased in the reports which they give, nevertheless they are officers of the Crown and to that extent their judgment may sometimes be questioned by the prisoner and by those who sympathise with him. The Scottish practice avoids this disadvantage, but it fails to secure the advantage of continuity of skilled observation.
I should like to read to the Committee the compromise at which the Royal Commission arrived upon this point. The Report states, in paragraph 422:
We have considered whether it would be possible to introduce a system in England which would combine the advantages of the English and the Scottish procedures. We believe that this could best be done by arranging that every prisoner charged with murder in England or Wales should be specially examined as to his state of mind by two doctors, of whom one at least should be a psychiatrist of standing who is not a member of the prison medical service, and the other usually an experienced member of that service.It is the results of the Royal Commission's deliberations as contained in that paragraph which we have sought to embody in the new Clause.8.45 p.m.
In this Clause we have two main objects in view. First, we want to establish that it is the duty of the State to obtain the best advice which is available about the mental condition of a prisoner as a guide to the Crown's conduct of the case against him, and, secondly, we want to ensure that the evidence on this point presented by the Crown shall be the best obtainable and of undoubted impartiality. 953 We attach a great deal of importance to both these points. Although our deliberations are now coming to a close, we hope that even at this very late stage, if only as a gesture to the work the Opposition have put in, the Under-Secretary will feel disposed to support us and see that this new Clause is added to the Bill.
§ Mr. Elwyn JonesI should like briefly to say how impressed I was with the observations of my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood), expressed with moderation and impressive skill, about the difficult problems of the administration of justice in the courts.
I hope that the Under-Secretary will say that the kind of arrangement which the new Clause proposes is being applied already. I know that to a certain extent it is. If I may, without undue advertisement, venture to refer to the last murder trial in which I appeared, that was the very arrangement which the Crown carried out, namely, a report by both a member of the prison medical service and by an independent consultant psychiatrist.
It seemed to me to be a most admirable arrangement and I trust that we will get that kind of answer at the very least from the Under-Secretary. I hope that at long last there will be a concession to the sweet reasonableness which on this, as on so many other matters, the Opposition have shown in the course of the debate.
§ Mr. WeitzmanI want to refer once again to a case, mentioned on a number of occasions, which is relevant to this new Clause, the Christofi case. There, the prison doctor, who was certainly an able doctor from the point of view of qualifications, but one doctor and one alone, gave his opinion that Mrs. Christofi was insane. We know that subsequently, after she had been found guilty, three doctors appointed by the Home Secretary examined her and found her sane. Had this new Clause been in operation, the position would have been that at a very early stage she would have been examined by two people, one of whom would have been a qualified psychiatrist not a member of the prison medical service, and another doctor.
The evidence about medical findings would be open to the prosecution and supplied to the defence and the position about such a woman's condition would 954 be perfectly clear. Clause 2 (2) puts upon the defence the onus of showing diminished responsibility. It is, therefore, essential that something should be done to provide the evidence in that way. There is no reason whatever why this new Clause should not be adopted.
§ Mr. SimonIf I say that the Government cannot accept this Amendment, it is not because—to echo the words of the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood)—I do not feel that the Opposition has been helpful in the detailed examination and scrutiny of the Bill, and particularly it is not because—to echo the words of the hon. and learned Member for West Ham, South (Mr. Elwyn Jones)—that I think that the attitude of the Opposition has been other than sweetly reasonable. It is because, in the first place, there are drafting points about this new Clause which render it unacceptable. Secondly, and far more importantly, as the hon. and learned Gentleman himself suggested, the Home Office have now adopted the practice set out in this new Clause and the Government feel that it is the sort of matter which is eminently suitable for administrative arrangement and unsuitable for interpolation in a statutory enactment.
The hon. Member for Rossendale set out the background of this proposal and referred to the evidence that was given before the Royal Commission as to the Scottish and English procedure, and that, I think, renders it unnecessary for me to recapitulate those matters.
When the Royal Commission reported, the Home Office did take steps to implement administratively its proposal in this connection, and for the last two years it has been implemented so far as practicable.
§ Mr. Elwyn Jones indicated assent.
§ Mr. SimonI see that the hon. and learned Gentleman nods his head, and I am sure that in his experience he has come across more than one case where this practice has obtained. I say "so far as practicable" because, in these matters, one does rely to some extent on the good nature of outside psychiatrists, and I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the services they have rendered in this flatter. It is often at very great inconvenience, because the 955 observation, to be of value, cannot be an isolated observation and there must be, at any rate, repeated visits to the prisoner to form any worthwhile opinion on his mental state, other than in a very obvious case of psychosis. What one would desire, as the hon. Member for Rossendale pointed out, is really continuous observation, and, of course, that is the value of having one of the medical officers a member of the prison medical service, most of whom have had psychiatric training or experience.
Since the practice was introduced, out of 200 prisoners in round numbers, 130 have been examined by outside psychiatrists—that is, I think I am right in saying, in practically every case where there has been a question of mental instability. Copies of the prison officer's medical report and of the report of the outside psychiatrist, where one has been appointed, are sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions and he sends them on to the defence. The prison medical officers are instructed to submit their reports as early as possible, and in any event not later than fourteen days before the trial, if this can be achieved.
That really meets the point as to the fourteen days which is in the new Clause, but, of course, sometimes that cannot be done and it would be unreasonable to say automatically there should be a failure to observe the statute and an application for an adjournment of the trial if, for example, the reports could not be rendered to the defence fourteen days before the trial and arrived only seven days before. If the defence were in any way hampered in its conduct of the case by the late arrival, that, on its merits, would be a ground for postponement; but it would introduce a quite unnecessary rigidity to have the present administrative practice reduced in such terms to a statutory enactment. The difficulty in the case of the outside psychiatrist is far greater, because he is by definition not subject to the control of the Prison Commissioners and, therefore, clearly cannot be rigidly tied as to time.
I spoke of some drafting difficulties. I do not want to over-labour this sort of point, but the term "qualified psychiatrist" is unsatisfactory. I do not know what qualifications are required. The Royal Commission's expression was "a 956 psychiatrist of standing", and that would cover the kind of medical practitioner or consultant whom one would desire to appoint, and the type of man who is in fact appointed. He may or may not have a psychiatric degree or a diploma in psychiatric medicine but, nevertheless, he may be a consultant and a great expert in this branch. As I have said, the requirement that the report should be supplied to the defence fourteen days before the trial could not always be complied with, and it would be unreasonable to insist upon it and therefore have to adjourn the trial.
I do not think I need refer to some of the other smaller matters which have been raised. I wanted to assure the Committee that the Home Office has adopted the practice recommended by the Commission I certainly do not read its recommendation as meaning that it wished to see the recommendation reduced to a statutory enactment, and I can give an undertaking that the practice which has been instituted in pursuance of Recommendation 28 since the Report will be continued in the spirit desired by the hon. Member and hon. and learned Member who have spoken.
§ Mr. EdeCan the hon. and learned Gentleman tell me what happens if the defence intimates that it does not want the prisoner examined mentally? I had a case where a certain person had been found guilty of murder and, within ten minutes of the sentence having been passed, the distinguished King's Counsel who had been briefed for the defence was in my room at the Home Office to inform me that I could not hang this man because he was mad. When I said, "Why did not you plead that at the trial?" he said, "I thought I was going to get him off." He was therefore very anxious to keep any thought of "guilty but insane" out of everybody's mind. If this is understood generally to be the case and it leaks out that somehow or other a prisoner has not been medically examined, it might give rise to certain thoughts in some people's minds. I do not know what will happen now that what the hon. and learned Member says has become the practice.
I heard the earlier part of his speech with a profound feeling of disappointment. I do not think anybody could have been more reasonable than my hon. 957 Friend in the way he put the proposal forward. The Minister paid a great tribute to him, and then gave him no reward. I know that virtue always has to be its own reward, but if there are difficulties of drafting—which has been said on more than one occasion—it is always open to the Government to say to an hon. Member, "This is a very good Amendment, but there are difficulties of drafting. We have a form of words which covers the point, and if you would sooner move it in that form than the form in which you have put the Amendment down we shall be very happy to accept it." Or the Government spokesman might say, "We will put down this form of words, and if you will withdraw your Amendment, we will move it." I wonder why that was not done regarding several points in this Bill. I am sure now that there was no desire to avoid a Report stage, because we have been so happy and pleasant together for the greater part of today. I should have thought the hon. and learned Gentleman would have been anxious to continue so pleasant an association. I hope that when we discuss the Amendments to the Schedule he may yet think a suitable reward might be given to my hon. Friend.
§ 9.0 p.m.
§ Mr. SimonThe right hon. Gentleman has made two points. He asks whether a suitable form of words could be devised. I do not doubt that it could, but I am sure he will agree that this is preeminently a matter for administration, rather than statutory enactments. For that reason, rather than because of draft-
§ ing errors, we cannot accept the Amendment.
§ I hesitate to give an answer to his second point in view of the right hon. Gentleman's experience and my inexperience. However, I think I am right in saying, whether under prison rules or standing orders, that every prisoner admitted to prison by routine must be medically examined. This would mean that there would be an initial examination of his state of mind. In the case of a prisoner charged with murder, it is very much more thorough, and he is kept under continuous observation with a view to having an exhaustive inquiry into his mental state. I do not think that that can in any way operate to his detriment.
§ Medical evidence is made available to the defence who can use it if they wish. It is not the practice of the prosecution to advance evidence of that sort. Indeed, I think I am right in saying that there are no means by which the prosecution could seek a verdict, say, of guilty but insane, or of diminished responsibility. That is a matter for the defence. Therefore I think that the right hon. Gentleman may rest assured that there is a routine medical examination; that in the case of persons charged with murder it is the best available, in the sense that there is continuous observation and now there may be outside examination. That operates purely for the benefit of the accused man.
§ Question put, That the Clause be read a Second time:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 160, Noes 194.
961| Division No. 49.] | AYES | [9.3 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.) | Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead) | Hale, Leslie |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Corbet, Mrs. Freda | Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Hayman, F. H. |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Crossman, R. H. S. | Herbison, Miss M. |
| Balfour, A. | Cullen, Mrs. A. | Hobson, C. R. |
| Benn, Hn. Wedgwood (Bristol, S.E.) | Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) | Holman, P. |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Deer, G | Holmes, Horace |
| Blackburn, F, | de Freitas, Geoffrey | Houghton, Douglas |
| Blyton, W. R. | Delargy, H. J. | Howell, Charles (Perry Barr) |
| Boardman, H. | Dye, S. | Howell, Denis (All Saints) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Hoy, J. H. |
| Bowden, H. W. (Leicester, S.W.) | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Hubbard, T. F. |
| Bowles, F. G. | Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Fernyhough, E. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Brockway, A. F. | Fienburgh, W. | Hunter, A. E. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Forman, J. C. | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) |
| Burke, W. A. | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Irving, Sydney (Dartford) |
| Burton, Miss F. E. | Gibson, C. W. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. |
| Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green) | Greenwood, Anthony | Janner, B. |
| Callaghan, L. J. | Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. | Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Jeger, Mrs. Lena (Holbn &St.Pnes.S.) |
| Champion, A. J. | Griffiths, William (Exchange) | Jenkins, Roy (Stechford) |
| Coldrick, W. | Grimond, J. | Johnson, James (Rugby) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. A. Creech (Wakefield) | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Jones, David (The Hartlepools) | Orbach, M. | Sparks, J. A. |
| Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.) | Oswald, T. | Steele, T. |
| Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Padley, W. E. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham) |
| Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham) | Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) | Stones, W. (Consett) |
| Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Palmer, A. M. F. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Kenyon, C. | Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.) | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Pargiter, G. A. | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| King, Dr. H. M. | Parker, J. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Lawson, G. M. | Parkin, B. T. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Ledger, R. J. | Peart, T. F. | Thornton, E. |
| Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Pentland, N. | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn |
| Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock) | Plummer, Sir Leslie | Usborne, H. C. |
| Lewis, Arthur | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | Wade, D. W. |
| Lindgren, G. S. | Probert, A. R. | Warbey, W. N. |
| Lipton, Marcus | Proctor, W. T. | Weitzman, D. |
| Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson | Randall, H. E. | West, D. G. |
| MacColl, J. E. | Redhead, E. C. | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| McGovern, J. | Reeves, J. | Willey, Frederick |
| McInnes, J. | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery) |
| McKay, John (Wallsend) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley) |
| Mahon, Simon | Rosa, William | Williams, W. R. (Openshaw) |
| Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Royle, C. | Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Mason, Roy | Short, E. W. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Mitchison, G. R. | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | Woof, R. E. |
| Moody, A. s. | Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) | Younger, Rt. Hon. K. |
| Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) | Skeffington, A. M. | Zilliacus, K. |
| Mort, D. L. | Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.) | |
| Moyle, A. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. Pearson and Mr. Wilkins. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Agnew, Sir Peter | Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. |
| Aitken, W. T. | Duthie, W. S. | Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) |
| Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) | Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) | Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.) |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Emmet, Hon. Mrs. Evelyn | Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Errington, Sir Eric | Longden, Gilbert |
| Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Farey-Jones, F. W. | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) |
| Armstrong, C. W. | Fell, A. | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick) |
| Ashton, H. | Finlay, Graeme | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh |
| Atkins, H. E. | Fisher, Nigel | Macdonald, Sir Peter |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Fletcher-Cooke, C. | McKibbin, A. J. |
| Barber, Anthony | Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale) | Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Garner-Evans, E. H. | McLaughlin, Mrs. P. |
| Barter, John | Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir Alan | Maclean, Fitzroy (Lancaster) |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Gower, H. R. | McLean, Neil (Inverness) |
| Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) | Graham, Sir Fergus | Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.) |
| Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) | Grant, W. (Woodside) | Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) |
| Bidgood, J. C. | Grant-Ferris, Wg. Cdr. R.(Nantwich) | Maddan, Martin |
| Biggs-Davison, J. A. | Green, A. | Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark) |
| Birch, Rt. Hon. Nigel | Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G. | Manningham-Buller, Rt. Hn. Sir R. |
| Bishop, F. P. | Gurden, Harold | Marlowe, A A. H. |
| Body, R. F. | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Marples, Rt. Hon. A. E. |
| Bossom, Sir Alfred | Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon) | Marshall, Douglas |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. | Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) | Mathew, R. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfd) | Maude, Angus |
| Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) | Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | Mawby, R. L. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G. | Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R. |
| Brooman-White, R. C. | Hesketh, R. F. | Morrison, John (Salisbury) |
| Bryan, P. | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Nabarro, G. D. N. |
| Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. | Hill, John (S. Norfolk) | Nairn, D. L. S. |
| Burden, F. F. A. | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Nicholls, Harmar |
| Butcher, Sir Herbert | Holland-Martin, C. J. | Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) |
| Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden) | Hope, Lord John | Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch) |
| Carr, Robert | Hornby, R. P. | Nugent, G. R. H. |
| Chichester-Clark, R. | Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) | Oakshott, H. D. |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.) | Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D. |
| Cole, Norman | Hurd, A. R. | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) |
| Conant, Maj. Sir Roger | Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry | Osborne, C. |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Iremonger, T. L. | Page, R. G. |
| Cordeaux, Lt.-Col. J. K. | ||
| Corfield, Capt. F. V. | Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye) | Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale) |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Jennings, J. C. (Burton) | Pilkington, Capt. R. A. |
| Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Johnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle) | Pott, H. P. |
| Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-North wood) | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) | Powell, J. Enoch |
| Cunningham, Knox | Joseph, Sir Keith | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) |
| Currie, G. B. H. | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir Lancelot | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. |
| Dance, J. C. G. | Kaberry, D. | Raikes, Sir Victor |
| D'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry | Keegan, D. | Rawlinson, Peter |
| Deedes, W. F. | Kerr, H. W. | Redmayne, M. |
| Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. | Kimball, M. | Remnant, Hon. P. |
| Doughty, C. J. A. | Lagden, G. W. | Rippon, A. G. F. |
| du Cann, E. D. L. | Leburn, W. G. | Robinson, Sir Roland (Blackpool, S.) |
| Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) | Summers, Sir Spencer | wall, Major Patrick |
| Roper, Sir Harold | Sumner, W. D. M. (Orpington) | Ward, Rt. Hon. G. R. (Worcester) |
| Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard | Temple, J. M. | Ward, Dame Irene (Tynemouth) |
| Russell, R. S. | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. |
| Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) | Whitelaw, W. S. I. (Penrith & Border) |
| Shepherd, William | Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.) | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| Simon, J. E. S.(Middlesbrough, W.) | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. | Wills, G. (Bridgwater) |
| Smithers, Peter (Winchester) | Tiley, A. (Bradford, W.) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Soames, Capt. C. | Tilney, John (Wavertree) | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Spearman, Sir Alexander | Turner, H. F. L. | Woollam, John Victor |
| Stevens, Geoffrey | Vane, W. M. F. | |
| Steward, Harold (Stockport, S.) | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. | Vickers, Miss J. H. | Mr. Wakefield and |
| Storey, S. | Vosper, Rt. Hon. D. F. | Mr. Hughes-Young. |
| Studholme, Sir Henry | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone) |