Commons Sitting of 20 May 1954

Preamble
The House met at Half past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  BRITISH TRANSPORT COMMISSION BILL
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.]
  Read the Third time, and passed.

  RUTHERGLEN BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read a Second time, and committed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH

    Deaf and Dumb Persons (Mental Hospitals)
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Health (1) how many deaf persons without speech and language are inmates of mental hospitals and institutions; whether he will give figures placing them in age groups, within a 10-year range; and the average intake and discharge of such patients per year since the end of the war in 1945;
    (2) in regard to deaf inmates of mental hospitals and institutions, the age-range of these inmates and the ages, in ranges of 10 years, when they were admitted.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Iain Macleod): I will, with permission, circulate the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Evans: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the incidence of mental deficiency among these people is higher than that among other people? Secondly, is he satisfied that ail the considerations in regard to the certification of deaf-mutes are borne in mind by certifying officers?
    Mr. Macleod: I am not certain that I have the information to enable me to
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    answer that supplementary question. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will study the answer and put a Question down.
    Mr. Evans: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of my question?
    Following is the answer:
    The following table gives the numbers on 1st April, 1954, in all but a few hospitals, from which returns have not yet been received.

    Age

    Mental hospitals

    Mental deficiency hospitals

    Deaf with speech

    Deaf without speech

    Deaf with speech

    Deaf without speech

    Under 20 …

    3

    7

    17

    188

    20–39

    73

    105

    81

    187

    40–59

    533

    340

    177

    189

    60–69

    586

    164

    62

    38

    70 or over …

    1,091

    148

    35

    9

    Age unknown

    46

    3

    1

    …

    TOTAL

    2,332

    767

    373

    611

    No information is available as to the number of admissions or discharges per year, nor the age of patients at the time of admission.

    Trichinosis Outbreak, Liverpool
    Mrs. Braddockasked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the recent outbreak of trichinosis in Liverpool; and what action he has taken to make it fully known that this infection is caused by eating raw pork sausage meat.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The Medical Officer of Health of Liverpool reported a localised outbreak of trichinosis there last November, and at the time warned the public through the local and national Press not to eat uncooked pork or pork sausage meat. Only three small outbreaks in England and Wales, of which this was one, have been reported in the past seven years. No further action on my part was called for.
    Mrs. Braddock: Is not the Minister aware that this disease is very difficult to diagnose? Does he not agree that if people are made fully aware of how the complaint is contracted it will make them

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    very careful about the things they eat and they will take precautions? In spite of the fact that there have been only one or two localised outbreaks in this country, does he not think that it is a danger and that some special steps should be taken by him to make the situation fully known to the public?
    Mr. Macleod: I do not dissent from that. The danger is in eating raw sausage meat as if it were meat paste. Although there have been only three cases, I am prepared to consider whether any further information should be circulated. I am sure that the Question and answer will help in that respect.
    Mr. Hastings: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider suggesting to the Minister of Food that a notice should be placed on sausages to the effect that they should only be eaten cooked?
    Mr. Macleod: That is a matter for my right hon. and gallant Friend.

    Chloramphenicol Treatment (Deaths)
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health how many Children and how many adults have died following, and as a result of, treatment by chloramphenicol in 1952 and 1953.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I regret that the information is not available.
    Dr. Stross: Is the Minister aware that there have been deaths, particularly of children, reference to which is seen in the medical Press from time to time? Would he agree that it is fair to say that this powerful and most useful drug should only be used for children if other drugs are not available or will not do the work?
    Mr. Macleod: I should not like to comment upon the second part of the supplementary question, for it is not really a matter upon which a layman should pronounce. Certainly considerable dangers are involved in the use of the drug, and there have been a number of deaths. These deaths are not recorded because it is not a notifiable cause of death, but it is known that there have been a number. Most of them, I think, have been due to an overdose being given.

    Cortisone and ACTH Prescriptions (Private Patients)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health whether, under his regulations, cortisone and ACTH can be prescribed by doctors to their private patients.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: There are no regulations governing the prescription of these or any other drugs for the use of private patients. In the public interest I have limited the distribution of cortisone and ACTH to selected hospitals from which they may be obtained for the treatment of private patients suffering from certain serious conditions.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Does not the Minister agree that it is undesirable that patients should feel that they can get these drugs as private patients but may not be able to get them, at any rate from general practitioners, under the National Health Service? Will he urge upon doctors generally that these drugs should not be prescribed except in hospitals?
    Mr. Macleod: We are at the moment limiting the distribution of cortisone—the supply position is rapidly becoming a great deal easier—to about 100 selected hospitals. It is hoped to extend the distribution very considerably. However, the use of the drug must, clearly, be entirely at the discretion of the doctors. One obviously cannot deny cortisone to a patient, if it is thought desirable that he should have it, merely because he happens to be in a private room and not in a ward.
    Mr. T. Williams: Before a general distribution of cortisone is made, will the Medical Research Council be consulted as to how, by whom and in what quantities it shall be prescribed?
    Mr. Macleod: Certainly. As cortisone becomes increasingly available, this sort of problem will arise. We shall move in step with the Medical Research Council.
    Mr. Russell: Can my right hon. Friend explain what ACTH stands for?
    Mr. Macleod: It is a short name for a very complicated drug.
    Dr. Summerskill: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that if a doctor at a hospital thinks that a National Health Service patient would benefit from the drug, he will be able to prescribe it?
    Mr. Macleod: I am not certain that I can give precisely that assurance yet, but we are rapidly approaching the position when supplies will be fully adequate to fulfil all such purposes.

    Cancer (Statistics)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health what statistical services are made available by his Department to the various organisations concerned with cancer research in this country; and what steps it is proposed to take in the near future to expand such statistical services in view of the bearing that statistics have on this particular issue.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Detailed statistics about cancer are published, with commentaries, in the Registrar-General's Annual Statistical Reviews and otherwise. They relate to all deaths from cancer and to cases of cancer reported by a number of hospitals under the cancer registration scheme. Additional data are made available by the General Register Office from time to time to meet specific needs of individuals or organisations connected with cancer research. I have recently issued a circular asking hospitals to make still greater efforts to achieve the registration of all cases of cancer.

    Ultrasonic Dental Drill
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that dental experts of the Royal Air Force are experimenting with the ultrasonic dentists' drill, operating at 25,000 vibrations a second, which can deal with cavities in teeth in one minute with no pain to the patient: and whether he will bring this method to the attention of dentists under the National Health Service.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Miss Patricia Hornsby-Smith): My right hon. Friend is aware of this instrument. As it is still in an early experimental stage, it would be premature to encourage its use in the general dental service, but my right hon. Friend will watch developments with interest.
    Mr. Janner: Would the hon. Lady ask her right hon. Friend to expedite the research into this drill, because it seems to be an extremely satisfactory instrument, and as there is no danger attached to its use, it should be used generally?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: We are certainly watching the experiments closely, but one point about it is that it is only usable vertically.
    Mr. Paget: Has the hon. Lady risked it?

    Urgent Dental Treatment (N.H.S. Number)
    Mr. F. Willeyasked the Minister of Health whether, in view of the inconvenience and suffering occasionally caused by the requirement of the production of the patient's National Health Service number to those seeking urgent dental treatment, he will allow some relaxation in such cases.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: My right hon. Friend is not aware of any serious inconvenience resulting from this requirement.
    Mr. Willey: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that people are not accustomed to carrying their National Health Service number about with them, that they cannot be presumed to be expecting to have toothache during the day and that I have had several complaints from my own constituency? If it is possible to allow relaxation in an emergency situation, does the hon. Lady think that her right hon. Friend could permit it?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: May I make the position clear? The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that, with 200,000 cases coming in to the Dental Estimates Board a week, obviously there must be some system of numbering. Certainly the system works more smoothly when the dentists are able to obtain the number. However, a patient need not be denied treatment in an emergency because he cannot produce his number, nor does the board withhold authorisation of payment because the number has not been provided. However, I do not want that to be misread by anyone so as to lead them to believe that the numbers are not helpful and necessary for the smooth and quick working of the system.

    Striede Artificial Leg
    Lieut.-Colonel Liptonasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made in experimental tests of the Striede artificial leg.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The experimental tests of six Striede kneejoints are still in progress and no final decision has yet been reached.
    Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that very great hopes are entertained about what is believed to be a considerable improvement in artificial limbs? As these experiments have now been going on for some considerable time, can he give any indication of when a final decision is likely to be reached?
    Mr. Macleod: I hope it will not be too long. We started to follow this development up as soon as we heard about it, and the experiments have been going on for just over a year. It takes a considerable time to reach the end of those experiments, but I hope there will be no undue delay.

  HOSPITALS

    Services, North Staffordshire
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Health if he will now give priority to the need for a large modern orthopædic centre at the North Staffordshire Infirmary, and health centres in the city of Stoke-on-Trent; what plans have been prepared; and when it is expected that the services will be available for the increasing needs of the people.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I understand that plans are being prepared for the replacement of the present orthopædic outpatient department at the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary, and I will consider the question of priorities in the light of the regional hospital board's recommendations. I have agreed the need for one health centre and revised plans are being prepared by the local health authority, but it is not possible to say when the centre will be completed.
    Mr. Smith: Is the Minister aware that the accommodation is disgraceful, and that miners, who suffer more than any other section of the community, have been attending under these conditions for years? In view of the fact that plans are now being prepared, will he give instructions that they should be given super-priority?
    Mr. Macleod,: I am aware of the need, but I certainly would not instruct the regional hospital board to put one scheme in front of the many others which there are. I will, however, study the question of priorities when it puts the list of recommendations to me.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Health if he is aware of the good work being carried out at the City General Hospital, Stoke-on-Trent; and when the hospital is to be extended, modernised, and provided with more equipment and staff.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Yes, Sir. Extensive improvements have been carried out since the appointed day and I understand that for the present no further improvement is envisaged. The equipment is adequate, and every possible effort is being made to recruit nursing staff up to requirements.
    Mr. Ellis Smithasked the Minister of Health what action has been taken to carry out the promises made by his Department about the North Stafford shire Infirmary; when the hospital is to be extended to meet the growing needs of the area it serves; when the amount of food served to staff and patients is to be improved and increased; when the payment of the staff is to be brought up to national agreed rates; and how far the needs of this hospital were considered when pages 8, 9 and 10 of Command Paper No. 8933 were prepared.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Various plans for improvement at the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary are being considered by the hospital management committee and the regional hospital board with whom, in the first instance, the responsibility for taking measures to meet local needs rests, but it is not possible to predict when these plans will be carried out. I am unaware of any complaints about the amount of food served or about the rates of payment to the staff, but if the hon. Member has any particular instances in mind, I will look into them. The answer to the last part of the Question is that all relevant needs were then considered.
    Mr. Smith: Will the Minister take particular note of this concrete example which I will give him of the need for special attention to be given to the problem? I have in my hand a letter from the North Staffordshire miners, who are complaining of the long period of waiting time when they have to see specialists for special purposes. Is it not most unfair that miners, who are rendering great service to the community, should be placed in this position?
    Mr. Macleod: I am always prepared to look at any cases. If the hon. Gentleman likes to send me the details of that case I will look at it.
    Dr. Stressasked the Minister of Health how many beds are available in North Staffordshire for the treatment of orthopædic cases; and how many of these were unoccupied in the North Stafford shire Royal Infirmary and in the Orthopædic Hospital in Biddulph at the latest available date.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Three hundred and nineteen. On 13th May, 1954, one bed was unoccupied at the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary and 29 at the Biddulph Orthopædic Hospital.
    Dr. Stross: Does not the Minister agree that it might be possible to make better use of the beds available in the Orthopædic Hospital at Biddulph in order to ease the pressure upon the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary, bearing in mind that the public are appreciative of the skill of the consultant and nursing staff there but that the amenities are really deplorable?
    Mr. Macleod: I take note of what the hon. Member says in the latter part of his supplementary question. With regard to the first part, I would say that there is a remarkable discrepancy between the waiting lists of the two hospitals. There is a very substantial waiting list for the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary but I am told that there is no waiting list at all for the Biddulph Orthopædic Hospital. In view of that, we certainly might see whether something can be done on the lines suggested by the hon. Gentleman in his supplementary question.
    Dr. Strossasked the Minister of Health what appointment systems exist at the North Staffordshire Royal Infirmary for all branches of out-patient work; and if he will give an assurance that any assistance which may be needed to improve amenities for patients and staff will be afforded by his Department.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: In all departments except the eye department patients are given appointments by the registration officer. I am prepared to consider any proposals which are submitted to me for the improvement of amenities.
    Dr. Stross: If the Minister receives a request from the hospital management committee in the usual way for assistance for the purpose of establishing an appointments system in the ophthalmic department, will he give what help he can, for patients have to wait a long time, and that is obviously unnecessary?

    Beds, Wales
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Health what progress has been made during recent months in increasing the number of hospital beds in Wales and in bringing the proportion of beds to number of population nearer the proportion in England.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Schemes completed have added 465 beds which are now being brought into use and building work on other schemes designed to add 266 further beds within the next 12 months has been substantially advanced. Planning for later developments has also proceeded.
    Mr. Gower: While I thank the Minister for that reply may I ask him whether he can say what effect progress is having upon the respective proportions?
    Mr. Macleod: I am afraid that the mathematical calculation is beyond me at short notice.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will the right hon. Gentleman say how far Wales is lagging behind England in the provision of hospital beds?
    Mr. Macleod: It depends upon one's calculation. If one includes mental and mental deficiency cases, the figures are 11.6 beds per 1,000 population in England and 104 in Wales. If one excludes such categories, the figures are 6.7 and 6.3 respectively.

    Nurses (Shortage)
    Mr. Holtasked the Minister of Health what action he is taking to deal with the shortage of trained hospital nurses, particularly in the non-teaching and smaller provincial hospitals.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: Recruitment measures are being concentrated on local campaigns which should enable these hospitals to secure their share of the general increase in the number of trained nurses.
    Mr. Holt: Is the Parliamentary Secretary satisfied that the General Nursing Council is not setting too high a level of general education for students entering the profession, which, although it may be satisfactory for London, brings about problems in some provincial areas?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: That is another question, but I should be loth to suggest that provincial areas should have a lower standard than London.

    Crumpsall, Manchester
    Mr. E. Johnsonasked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the decision of the Hospital Management Committee of Crumpsall Hospital, Manchester, to close a further 48 beds on account of a shortage of nursing staff, making a total of 108 beds closed for this reason; and what action he is taking to remedy this state of affairs.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am aware that it has been necessary to close further beds at Crumpsall Hospital because of shortage of nursing staff. I am informed that the hospital management committee, in co-operation with the Ministry of Labour and National Service, is making every effort to recruit additional staff and that a local campaign is being considered.
    Mr. Johnson: Will my right hon. Friend consider allowing hospitals to advertise in the ordinary Press as well as in the "Nursing Times" and the "Nursing Mirror" for trained staff and State-enrolled assistants for full-time work?
    Mr. Macleod: I am prepared to consider any suggestion which might improve recruitment. I am told that recruitment is slightly better at Crumpsall this year.

    Nursing Vacancies (Advertising)
    Mr. Palmerasked the Minister of Health if he will state his reasons for enforcing the block advertising procedure for vacancies for nursing staff in the National Health Service.
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: The main object of the procedure is to avoid the waste of advertising space and of money entailed by the insertion of separate advertisements by hospital management committees.
    Mr. Palmer: Is the hon. Lady satisfied that this rather mechanical system is, in practice, producing results?
    Miss Hornsby-Smith: I should have thought that the concentration of all the advertisements relating to any hospital management committee would be far more easily spotted by potential applicants than if they were dotted about in any part of the newspapers. The new scheme was recommended by the Ministry in 1952, and was enforced in 1954 at the request of the regional hospital boards.

    Bracknell New Town
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    MR. REMNANT: TO ask the Minister of Health what hospitalisation arrangements are being made for the new town of Bracknell.
    Mr. G. Thomas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, on this Question. Would you require, as a matter of order, that when hon. Members make up their own words, they should tell the House what they mean—for instance, by this word "hospitalisation?"
    Mr. Speaker: If hon. Members would study this Question with the aid of a dictionary, they would get some idea of what it is about.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Bracknell is at present served by hospitals in Windsor. A new hospital will probably have to be built ultimately in the town, but it is not possible to say when a start can be made.
    Mr. Remnant: May I take it from the answer of my right hon. Friend that the understanding amongst the new town tenants that the proposal to build a new hospital at Lily Hill has been abandoned is not correct?
    Mr. Macleod: There are no fewer than five new towns in this area. It may be that in due course each will need a new hospital. Although, one will some day be built at Bracknell, I cannot commit myself to the site nor when it will be possible to make a start.

    Pharmacists
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Minister of Health what reduction there has been in the number of hospital pharmacists during the past two years; and whether

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    any hospital out-patient pharmacy departments have had to be closed for lack of staff.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I regret that figures for 1953 are not available but there was a small increase in 1952 compared with 1951. So far as my information goes, one hospital out-patient pharmacy department has had to be closed for lack of staff.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Would the Minister keep an eye on this position, since I understand that there has been some difficulty in recruiting staff for hospitals; and would he see whether anything more can be done to encourage further recruitment?
    Mr. Macleod: Yes, certainly. I was rather surprised to see from these figures that there has been a small increase every year since 1949. I know there are such difficulties, and it is one problem that I am watching.

    Queen's Hotel, Harrogate
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Health the salary paid by the Leeds Regional Hospital Board to the catering manager at the Queen's Hotel, Harrogate; how many applications were received; when the appointment was made; at what salary the job was advertised; and whether the present holder was one of the original applicants.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: There is a joint appointment of manager and manageress for the whole of the establishment at the Queen's Hotel, their salaries being respectively £625 and £470 a year. The appointment was originally advised with a joint salary of £1,050, and applications from 28 couples were received. It was, however, re-advertised at the rates I have mentioned when the board decided that the manageress should also act as warden of the preliminary training school. An additional 15 applications were then received, including that of the present holders of the appointment, who were appointed in January, 1954.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scottasked the Minister of Health how much of the 16,698 square yards of gardens at the Leeds Regional Board Headquarters at the Queen's Hotel, Harrogate, is subject to planning approval; and how much was
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    paid in wages to the three gardeners in 1953.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: I am informed that the local planning authority has agreed to the present use of the premises on condition that the board maintains the external appearance of the hotel and garden substantially in the condition in which they were in November, 1950; and that £1,132 was paid to the gardener and his two labourer assistants in 1953.
    Colonel Stoddart-Scott: Why is it that only a small portion of this garden, which is seen by the public, has £1,300 spent on it every year, when a large part of the garden at the back, which is never seen, is kept up in the same way, and no planning authority has been given for the back part of the garden to be kept up? After all, this House votes money for the care and treatment of patients and not for the upkeep of hospital board gardens?
    Mr. Macleod: As I understand the position, it was a condition of the agreement with the local authorities that the gardens should be kept up to a very good standard. I do not think any particular part of them was referred to.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the Minister say what the total cost to his Department must be, by now, of all the Questions by his hon. Friend about the premises of the regional board.

    Capital Allocations (Weighting)
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Health what weighting in the allocation of capital expenditure is given to regional hospital boards operating in areas which suffered serious unemployment in the depression in the 193O's.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: The allocation is made mainly on a population basis with an additional weighting to meet particular local needs, including a disproportionate shortage of beds, from whatever cause arising.
    Miss Ward: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the more prosperous areas in the 30's were able to improve their hospital services, whereas the Special Areas were not in that favourable position? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that the Newcastle Regional Hospital Board considers that

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    it has not got a fair allocation with which to catch up on the period of distress and unemployment during the depression, and will he bear that in mind when he receives a deputation from that board?
    Mr. Macleod: I should have thought the figures go a long way to disprove that assertion, because the Newcastle Regional Hospital Board received £393,000 on a population basis and £69,000 on account of lack of beds, and of the further central £2 million allocation, Newcastle was allocated more than twice the amount that would have been given on a purely population basis.
    Mr. Slater: Could the Minister state what are the possibilities of having a new county hospital built in Durham, as there has been such a restriction upon capital expenditure of the North Regional Hospital Board?
    Mr. Macleod: I think the hon. Gentleman ought to put down a Question on an individual case.

  EDUCATION

    Subnormal Children
    Mr. Iremongerasked the Minister of Education what precise information is available as to the number of handicapped and backward children in the United Kingdom; and whether she is satisfied with the special school facilities at present available for them.
    The Minister of Education (Miss Florence Horsbrugh): In December, 1953, local education authorities in England and Wales were providing special educational treatment for 53,118 pupils accommodated in special schools (other than hospital schools), boarding homes or independent schools, and were seeking special school places for a further 19,861. They were also educating 2,077 handicapped pupils at home, some of whom were awaiting special school places, and about 8,000 in hospital. The number of special school places is being increased as rapidly as resources permit. Nearly 15,000 additional special school places have been brought into use since the war, and the provision of a further 9,000 is either in progress or will shortly be put in hand.
    Mr. Iremonger: Is my right hon. Lady Friend—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I hope, Mr. Speaker, that my
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    unsolicited tribute will be taken in the way in which it was given. Is the right hon. Lady aware that local authorities have expressed the opinion that shortage of residential school places for emotionally maladjusted schoolchildren of average intelligence over the age of 11 is a very large factor in juvenile delinquency, and is she now prepared to announce a definite priority in the investment programme for building facilities for educating these children and also for educationally subnormal children?
    Miss Horsbrugh: It is difficult to go into all the points raised in answer to a question, but in the programme for special schools I am now giving a priority to the educationally subnormal.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Edward Evans.
    Mr. Iremonger: On a point of order. I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I propose to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: I called the hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Edward Evans).
    Mr. Edward Evans: What type of special schools have the longest waiting list?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am afraid that I could not give that information without notice. If the hon. Member will put a Question on the Order Paper, I will obtain the information for him.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Education how many special schools for the mentally-retarded are now open; what is their accommodation; and what reports she has in respect of the number of mentally-retarded children for whom there are at present no vacancies.
    Miss Horsbrugh: There are 92 boarding special schools for educationally subnormal children providing about 6,600 places, and, 140 day special schools providing some 15,000 places. Returns from local education authorities show that in December, 1953, there were 12.794 educationally subnormal children awaiting vacancies in special schools.
    Mr. Sorensen: What steps are being taken to try to meet this very great need, seeing that the retention of these mentally-retarded children at home

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    causes a great deal of distress to the parents, as well as doing some injury to the children themselves?
    Miss Horsbrugh: If the hon. Gentleman will look at my answer to an earlier Question, I think he will see how we are pressing on with the building programme particularly to deal with these children.
    Mr. Nicholson: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great danger that some of these children may be classified as mentally-retarded when really all that is the matter with them is that they are deaf?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, we have been taking particular care over the matter of deaf children.

    Independent Schools (Recognition)
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education how many children are attending independent schools which, following inspection, have failed to satisfy her standards for recognition as efficient.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Recognition as efficient was refused in 1953 to nine of the schools that had applied for it. They were attended by 912 pupils.
    Mr. Morley: What steps is the right hon. Lady taking, or advising the local authorities to take, to safeguard the interests of children who are attending schools that have been declared inefficient by H.M. Inspectors?
    Miss Horsbrugh: This does not necessarily mean that the schools are inefficient. The certificate of recognition of efficiency demands a very high standard, and if the schools wish to have a special inspection it is for them to apply for it. Very often refusal of the certificate may have to do with particular features of the building and those concerned can make improvements and then apply again.

    Black List Schools
    Mr. Morleyasked the Minister of Education how many schools on the original black list are still in use.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Of the 2,827 schools on the original black list 2,250 have since been withdrawn from the list either on
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    closure or because conditions have been substantially improved. This leaves on the list and still in use 577 schools, of which 66 were originally condemned as unsuitable for continued recognition and incapable of improvement.
    Mr. Morley: When does the right hon. Lady propose to sanction an additional building programme in order that these schools may be replaced by modern schools?
    Miss Horsbrugh: As soon as possible.
    Mr. C. Davies: Are any of the schools mentioned in that very long list in Wales, and are some of the schools which were condemned by her Department as long ago as 1927, and which I found in 1937 had not been dealt with, still in that list?
    Miss Horsbrugh: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman puts down a Question on the Order Paper relating particularly to Wales, I will try to obtain the information.
    Mr. J. Johnson: Is it not a fact that the inquiry into black-listed schools took place almost 30 years ago, and that the Select Committee on Estimates said last year that there were many more than these 577? Will the right hon. Lady look again into the question of the actual number of schools that ought to be declared unfit for educational purposes?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Unfortunately, we are well aware of the great number of schools that ought to be condemned and pulled down. There is no dispute between either side of the House on that point. I do not think that having another inquiry would help us. We want to get on as quickly as we can with building programmes, so that when it is possible we can have these schools replaced.

    Secondary School Pupils (Transfer Facilities)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Minister of Education if she will take steps to increase facilities and opportunities for transfers between secondary modern and grammar schools, and all other practicable steps to assist pupils whose performances during their early years at secondary modern schools indicate that they are suited for a grammar school education.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am anxious that there should be ample opportunity for pupils to transfer from one kind of secondary school to another where it would clearly be in their interests to do so. I think that local education authorities are well aware of their responsibilities in this matter.
    Mr. Gower: Whilst thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether she would also ensure that children at secondary modern schools shall have increased facilities to enable them to sit for the General Certificate of Education?
    Miss Horsbrugh: Local authorities are beginning to examine whether they can supply different or extra courses in modern schools more appropriate for the children concerned.

    Cardiff
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education the number of classes in Cardiff, in primary and secondary schools, respectively, with over 50 children on the register; and the comparable figures for 1952 and 1951, respectively.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Complete returns for January, 1954, are not yet available, but provisional figures show that in Cardiff there are three junior classes and no senior classes with more than 50 pupils on the roll. In 1952 and 1951 there were 12 and 13 junior classes respectively with more than 50 pupils; there was no senior class of this size in either year.
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education what is the number of classes in primary schools in Ely, Grange-town, Canton, Roath Park and Llanishen, respectively, which have more than 40 and more than 50 children on the register.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I regret that it is not practicable for me to give figures about classes in particular districts of an authority's area.
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education how many children in Cardiff reached a standard of more than 50 per cent, in the secondary grammar schools entrance examination in Cardiff, and how many were admitted to secondary grammar schools in 1950, 1951, 1952, and 1953, respectively.
    Miss Horsbrugh: This information is not available in my Department.
    Mr. Thomas: Is the Minister aware that if the information was available it would indicate the need for comprehensive schools in Cardiff?
    Mr. Speaker: That is quite hypothetical.

    Wolverstone Residential School (cost)
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Minister of Education the cost of maintaining a child at the London County Council residential school at Wolverstone, Surrey.
    Miss Horsbrugh: This school is not in Surrey but in Suffolk. I am informed that for 1952–53, the latest for which detailed figures are available, the annual cost per head, after deducting parental contributions and other income, is estimated to have been about £370. This includes some £35 for loan charges and about £56 for tuition.
    Sir H. Williams: Since the maintenance cost in this school is higher than at Eton, Borstal or Haileybury, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of closing it down and transferring the children to one or other of those three eminent educational institutions?
    Miss Horsbrugh: The future of the school has been under consideration for some time, and I recently invited the London County Council to discuss the problem with me.
    Mr. M. Stewart: May I ask the right hon. Lady whether the school has, at present, a full complement of pupils, and whether the cost of running it would not be favourably affected if certain alterations which it was hoped to carry out on the premises were carried out? Would the right hon. Lady not also agree that very little help is to be expected from people who have only just found out in which county the school is situated?
    Miss Horsbrugh: It does not very much matter whether the school is in Surrey or Suffolk. The point is that it is administered by the London County Council, and the London County Council fully realises that the present position cannot continue. Even if the roll was increased to 245 the cost per head would be expected to be £300. London County

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    Council attributes the high cost to the nature of the buildings, which are largely huts scattered over 53 acres, and various other factors, but I think the best thing is for me to discuss the problem fully with the London County Council first and see what arrangements we can make.
    Mr. Ian Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is an important educational development which ought to be encouraged?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I agree that we should encourage the idea of boarding school education. Many people want it, but we have to look into the question of how it can be provided more economically than at present it seems possible to provide it at this school.

    School Uniforms
    Sir L. Ropnerasked the Minister of Education whether she is aware that the colour and pattern of the uniform for pupils at grammar schools is not standardised; and whether she will assist the parents of those children who are forced to move from one school to another by recommending uniformity throughout the country.
    Miss Horsbrugh: While I have asked for strict economy over school uniforms to avoid unnecessary expense to public funds and to parents, I do not think that it would be either sensible or acceptable to try to standardise school uniform throughout the country.
    Sir L. Ropner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when parents change the locality in which they live or work they are often under the necessity of having to buy a new uniform for a boy or girl to conform with the uniform in the new school? Is she aware that there are cases where parents, within a year or 18 months, have to buy two, three or even four uniforms?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I know the difficulties, but I think that my hon. and gallant Friend would agree that the point of having a school uniform is to have a different uniform for different schools. In many cases assistance is given from public funds. I do not think that we want expensive uniforms, but we do want some distinguishing mark for pupils of different schools.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Is the right hon. Lady aware that most staffs of secondary grammar schools try to ensure that the required uniforms are not too expensive? Is she also aware that where there is a transfer to another school reasonable time is given for the provision of a new uniform, and that she might as well try to have the same school colours for Eton and Winchester as try to change the uniforms of the grammar schols?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I agree, but I also sympathise with parents who have to move from place to place on account of their work and find that their children, on going into a new school, naturally want to wear the uniform of that school.

    Poynton
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Education if she will take steps to ensure that there is a choice of grammar school education in Poynton, where children at the present time have to attend the Macclesfield school, in view of the inadequate transport facilities to Macclesfield.
    Miss Horsbrugh: No. I understand that there are trains between Poynton and Higher Poynton and Macclesfield which are quite convenient for the journeys both to and from the Macclesfield grammar schools.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if she studies the time-table she will see that a child who misses one train will arrive several hours late? It should be possible to arrange for a bus. This is an urgent requirement.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I know that trains from Poynton and Higher Poynton leave at 8.12 and 8.22, but I have not taken into account how the child would fare if she missed the train. As to the point about a bus, I think the first thing would be to see locally what arrangement can be made.
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Education if she will see that further provision is made for primary education at Poynton, where the classes are overcrowded, in particular with regard to the fact that there is a steady increase of population in this area, whose educational needs will have to be catered for.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The provision of school accommodation is a matter in the first instance for the local education authority. I am making inquiries and will write to my hon. and gallant Friend as soon as I have further information.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we have been corresponding for several months, and the letters have been read by local authorities, which are not satisfied? They would like something done in the matter.
    Miss Horsbrugh: As I have said, it is for the local authorities to discuss the particular problems with me, and I will certainly see what can be done.
    Air Commodore Harveyasked the Minister of Education the future arrangements for the provision of day technical schools in or near Poynton.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The education authority's long-term development plan proposes the provision of technical courses, both in the new secondary modern school that is to be provided, when circumstances allow, in Poynton, and in the secondary grammar schools serving the area. I have suggested to the authority that this aspect of their plan requires further consideration.
    Air Commodore Harvey: Will my right hon. Friend stress that if British industry is to compete with foreign industry we must have good technical education? There is not a single day technical school in Cheshire. Will my right hon. Friend treat the matter as one of utmost urgency?
    Miss Horsbrngh: A domestic science course for girls and a combined technical and rural study course for boys are available at the Poynton Secondary Modern School. At the Macclesfield Grammar School for Girls there are commercial and domestic science courses and a pre-nursing course is to be instituted next autumn. At the King's School in Macclesfield there is a technical course in light engineering for boys.

    Classrooms (Illumination Standards)
    Mr. G. Longdenasked the Minister of Education how many of her officials are employed in administering her requirements for illumination in class rooms laid down in the Standards for
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    School Premises Regulations, 1954; and what instruments are used for testing the standards of illumination.
    Miss Horsbrugh: It is the duty of local education authorities to see that the requirements of the Standards for School Premises Regulations, 1954, are complied with, and no officers of my Department are solely employed in administering these Regulations. If exact measurements of the illumination in a particular school are required, my Department arranges for them to be made by the building research station of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research.
    Mr. Longden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these Regulations lay down that in all teaching accommodation and kitchens the lowest level of maintained illumination and the minimum daylight factor shall be 10 lumens per square foot and 2 per cent, respectively; that she defines a "lumen" as:
    "the luminous flux emitted in unit solid angle by a uniform source of artificial light giving a luminous intensity of one candala";
    and that "Daylight factor" is in equally abstruse terms? Would it not be better, instead of using verbiage which can be understood—if at all—only by a senior wrangler—and I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that a dictionary is no help here —to say in simple English that lighting shall be such as seems reasonable for the purpose in the opinion of the head teacher and, if necessarly, to H.M. Inspectors?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member should not be so hard on verbiage.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I have read the document, portions of which my hon. Friend has now read. I am assured that architects and those engaged in building schools know what those terms mean, and in the majority of cases I am sure that the Regulations are fully complied with.

    Catering Training, Torquay
    Mr. Awberyasked the Minister of Education (1) if she is aware of the inadequacy of the training facilities in the south-west region for those desiring to enter the catering industry, and that the Hotels Association are running a course which is inadequate to meet the situation, as are the facilities

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    at present provided by the South Devon Technical College; and whether she will take steps to provide a catering school which will meet the needs in this area;
    (2) if, in view of the fact that the catering industry is one of our best dollar earning industries and is also one of the largest in the south-west region, she will remove the embargo on the building of a catering unit at the South Devon Technical College for the purpose of training the necessary recruits for this industry.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am well aware that the facilities for catering education at Torquay are unsatisfactory. Officers of my Department will shortly be exploring with representatives of the local education authority the possibility of meeting the more pressing needs by carrying out a relatively small amount of new building, but I cannot approve the substantial building project which has been put forward by the authority.
    Mr. Awbery: Is the Minister aware that this is the largest industry in the south-west region, but that no provision for training is made? Some time ago the Minister provided money for the building of a unit at the college but then withdrew the amount. Will she now reconsider that decision, in view of the urgency of the matter?
    Miss Horsbrugh: The difficulty is that, while we are doing a great deal more building of technical colleges than before, we have had to confine building to the more urgent projects for engineering, mining, textiles and building. With the suggestion of some enlargement at Torquay, I hope that at any rate we might help instruction in catering to go on in the meantime.

    School Dental Services Leek
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Education if she is aware of the shortage of school dental services for the schools in and around Leek; and whether she will arrange for a better dental service for the children in these schools.
    Miss Horsbrugh: The answer to the first part of the Question is, "Yes, Sir," but it is, of course, the responsibility of local education authorities to provide
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    school dental services for their areas. I understand that the education authority concerned is doing everything possible to recruit further dentists.
    Mr. Davies: Whilst thanking the right hon. Lady for that answer, may I ask if her Department is co-operating with the Ministry of Health to try to provide further dental services in the area?
    Miss Horsbrugh: We are trying to see throughout how we can recruit more dentists for the school dental service. The hon. Member will be glad to know that in 1953 there was an increase of the equivalent of 95 full-time officers. Before that the number was, for some years, going down. We shall go on doing all we can to recruit dentists.

    School Meals (Warslow, Leek)
    Mr. Harold Daviesasked the Minister of Education if she is aware that the children at the Warslow School which is in rural area near Leek have neither arrangements for hot meals nor school milk; and whether she will make arrangements for the provision of milk and meals at this remote country school.
    Miss Horsbrugh: Yes, Sir, but I cannot undertake that it will be possible in the near future to overcome the difficulties which have hitherto prevented this provision from being made.
    Mr. Davies: Is the right hon. Lady aware that this school is in a remote rural area? Out of fairness to the children of rural England, will she see that they have the same meal and milk facilities as those in the cities? Will she exercise a little ingenuity to find a little extra finance for this school and this area for the supply of milk?
    Miss Horsbrugh: There are particular difficulties. The local education authority is exploring the possibility of obtaining meals from a Derbyshire school. The local education authority and the Ministry of Food have tried for a long time to arrange for a supply of safe liquid milk, but as yet they have been unsuccessful.
    Mr. Davies: Will the right hon. Lady apply her ingenuity to this problem?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I will certainly do my very best. I realise the difficulties, but I am sure that the local education

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    authority, the Ministry of Food and the Ministry of Education will all try to see how they can be solved.

    Highway Code (School Curriculum)
    Mr. Lewisasked the Minister of Education if she will approach local education authorities with a request that they should include a study of the Highway Code in the school curriculum.
    Miss Horsbrugh: I am satisfied that local education authorities take their responsibilities in regard to road safety instruction very seriously. As in other curriculum matters, the exact arrangements must be left to the discretion of authorities and teachers, but I feel sure that the schools already make appropriate use of the Highway Code.
    Mr. Lewis: Yes, but is the Minister aware that there are some schools which do not educate and train children in the study of the Highway Code? Is she aware that there are a number of boys and girls aged 11 and 12, and teenagers, who ride pedal cycles on the roads and who give completely wrong signals, which is a danger both to themselves and to other traffic; and that, if she could advise education authorities to consider giving lectures and instruction, it would be helpful to the children?
    Miss Horsbrugh: I assure the hon. Gentleman that local authorities are doing everything possible—
    Mr. Lewis: Some are not.
    Miss Horsbrugh: —and I am sure that they will notice the hon. Member's Question and the answer. I understand that special editions of the Code for infants and juniors, issued by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, are widely used in schools.
    Mr. H. Nicholls: As the Highway Code is shortly to be issued in a revised form, could not the Minister recommend that local authorities give at least one session to instruction?
    Miss Horsbrugh: It is not for the Minister to advise local education authorities, or the teachers who are in charge on the curriculum, but I am sure
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    that the fact that this Question has been asked and answered in the House, will be noted.

    ATOMIC ENERGY (U.K.-U.S. AGREEMENT)
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Prime Minister if he can now state when, and how, this country lost the right to veto the use of the atomic bomb by the United States of America.
    The Prime Minister (Sir Winston Churchill): I do not wish to add today to what I have already said on this subject.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Is it not in the public interest that they should be told the whole truth of this matter? Is there any way of proving to the people of this country that the right to veto the use of the atomic bomb by the United States was sold by the Leader of the Opposition?
    Mr. Lewis: On a point of order. I could not hear that Question. May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman would repeat it.

    SCHOOL MEDICAL SERVICE (RESPONSIBILITY)
    Miss Wardasked the Prime Minister whether he will make the necessary arrangements to transfer responsibility for the school medical service to the Minister of Health.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I am not advised that this would be desirable at the present moment.
    Miss Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the British Dental Association has recommended this course of action, as also have other authorities who are knowledgeable about dental treatment; and will he reconsider the point, as it would seem to be of real importance to have all dental treatment under the Ministry of Health rather than to have divided responsibility.
    The Prime Minister: I think my answer covered exactly that part of the hon. Lady's supplementary question.
    Miss Ward: What about the first part?

    GIBRALTAR (SPANISH CLAIM)
    Mr. Ernest Daviesasked the Prime Minister in what circumstances cession of Gibraltar to Spain in return for her assistance in the late war was promised.
    Mr. G. Jegerasked the Prime Minister if he will publish the exact terms of the promises he made to return Gibraltar to Spain.
    The Prime Minister: No promises to cede Gibraltar to Spain were made during the late war.
    Mr. Davies: While thanking the Prime Minister for that answer, may I ask if his attention has been drawn to a recent article which appeared in "Arriba," a Spanish paper, and which is attributed to General Franco himself, in which it was stated that Gibraltar was promised to be returned to Spain—
    Mr. Follick: What does my hon. Friend mean—"returned"?
    Mr. Davies: —if Spain remained neutral during the war? Will he take steps to give instructions to our ambassador in Madrid to make representations to the Spanish Government against these inaccurate statements and the distortion of history.
    The Prime Minister: I have seen the article and heard of the source to which it was attributed, but the facts are as stated in my answer.
    Mr. A. Hendersonasked the Prime Minister if he will publish in HANSARD the full text of the note dated 26th June, 1940, sent by him to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with regard to the status of Gibraltar.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Henderson: Will not the Prime Minister agree that the tone of this minute completely refutes the allegation made, by those who speak for the Spanish Government, that there has been a breach of faith on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, I do agree with that.
    Following is the information:

    TEXT OF A MINUTE FROM THE PRIME MINISTER TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS, DATED JUNE 26, 1940.
    "I am sure we shall gain nothing by offering to ' discuss' Gibraltar at the end of the war. Spaniards will know that if we win, discussions will not be fruitful; and if we lose, they would not be necessary. I do not believe mere verbiage of this kind will affect the Spanish decision. It only shows weakness and lack of confidence in our victory, which will encourage them the more.

    NATIONALISED BOARDS (COSTS)
    Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister if he will recommend a Royal Commission before which evidence can be taken on oath with sittings held in public to inquire into the costs of the nationalised boards, and to report on ways in which economies can be made.
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir. A Royal Commission with evidence on oath is certainly not the right kind of body for the examination of the nationalised industries. Following the debate of 8th February last about ways of increasing the opportunities of Parliament to scrutinise and discuss the affairs of the nationalised industries, the Government are considering what the next step shall be.
    Sir W. Smithers: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his answer, may I ask if he is aware that at present hon. Members are unable to ask questions about the maladministration and waste of public money by the nationalised industries, and will he do his utmost to do away with this piece of Socialistic folly as soon as possible.
    The Prime Minister: I think that I should add more to controversy than to the information of the House if I were to answer that supplementary question.
    Mr. Noel-Baker: Will the Prime Minister suggest to the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) that he should read the annual reports of the nationalised boards, where he will find full information about their costs of production and a record of constantly increasing efficiency.
    The Prime Minister: I am sure that my hon. Friend will have heard the statement which has been made.

    INDO-CHINA

      United States—French Discussions
      Mr. D. Healeyasked the Prime Minister at what stage Her Majesty's Government were consulted by the French and United States Governments about their discussions concerning the circumstances in which the United States of America might make a military intervention in Indo-China.
      The Prime Minister: Her Majesty's Government were not informed of these discussions in advance. On the basis of reports that appeared in the Press, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary discussed the matter with the United States representative in Geneva during the week-end, and Her Majesty's Ambassador in Washington has since been given a full account of the discussions by the State Department. It appears that the exchanges between the United States and French Governments were of an informal and exploratory nature and that no further commitments have been entered into by either party.
      Mr. Healey: Is the Prime Minister aware that the adoption of these hole-and-corner methods between two major Western Allies can only widen the unfortunate breach between them regarding a settlement in Indo-China and delay a possible settlement at Geneva; and is inconsistent with the spirit of the Western Alliance and the Entente Cordiale?.
      The Prime Minister: We must bear that in mind too.

      Five-Power Staff Talks
      Mr. A Hendersonasked the Prime Minister where the Five-Power staff talks are taking place; who is representing Her Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom; and whether he can state the problems under examination.
      The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add today to the reply given by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State on 10th May.
      Mr. Henderson: Does that mean that the Prime Minister will be able to say something next week.
      The Prime Minister: I always look forward to opportunities to give the House information, especially information of a kind that it likes.
      Mr. Wyatt: Can the Prime Minister comment on the report in the Press today of an answer given by President Eisenhower at his Press conference yesterday, in which he said that America will go ahead with a Pacific pact or South-East Asia pact on the basis of Australia, New Zealand and certain other Asian countries, with or without Britain, and does not this mean that once again Britain will be by-passed unless we find out exactly what is happening.
      The Prime Minister: I attend here at this time to answer Questions by hon. Members and not to comment on remarks made by the heads of other Governments and States.

      COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA
      Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the setting up of a Royal Commission in Australia to inquire into espionage and Communist propaganda and to the setting up in the United States of America of an Information Agency to inaugurate a world-wide propaganda campaign against Communism; and if he will give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will co-operate with Australia and the United States of America in their efforts to expose the danger of Communism to the world.
      The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I am aware of the action taken by the Australian and the United States' authorities. Her Majesty's Government will always give their help to any country of the free world that desires it in seeking to counter the insidious attacks of Communist propaganda. We must, however, be free in this country to pursue the methods we judge best suited to our traditions and circumstances. They do not seem to have worked too badly so far.
      Sir W. Smithers: Has my right hon. Friend noticed the evidence given in Australia, since this Question was put down on the Order Paper? Is not it the duty of Her Majesty's Government to discover to what extent Communist propaganda is rife in this country? I hear, though I cannot prove it, that it is much greater than anyone realises.
      The Prime Minister: That does not require any further answer from me.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Attlee: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal to state the business for next week.
The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Harry Crookshank): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows.
MONDAY, 24TH MAY—Supply [16th Allotted Day]: Committee. It is proposed to take the Supply formally and then debate a Motion on Members' Expenses which it is understood will be tabled by hon. Members on the back benches.
Committee and remaining stages: Post Office (Site and Railway) Bill.
Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill.
TUESDAY, 25TH MAY AND WEDNESDAY, 26TH MAY—Further progress will be made in Committee on the Finance Bill.
THURSDAY, 27TH MAY—Television Bill: Committee [3rd Allotted Day].
FRIDAY, 28TH MAY—Private Members' Motions.
Perhaps I may be allowed at this stage to answer the question which I am bound to be asked today, because I am asked it every week. It is in regard to the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill. At this period in the Session—[Laughter] Hon. Members had better wait to hear the whole of my statement. At this period in the Session, most of our time must be devoted to the consideration of essential financial business and to the concluding stages of legislation. We shall thus be unable to proceed in the immediate future with the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, which, as it stands, would take effect from 1st July this year.
From the point of view of assuring the ultimate solvency of the account a few months' delay is not vital but the House will realise that the longer the interval the greater will be the deficiency that will have to be met. It is, therefore, the intention of the Government to carry through the Bill as soon as the pressure of the Parliamentary time-table permits, and, in any case, before the end of the present financial year.
Mr. Attlee: On Monday's business, can the Lord Privy Seal say whether it is proposed that there should be a free vote of
2294
the House on any Motion that will be tabled?
Mr. Crookshank: I should like to see the Motion before making any statement about that. There will be an opportunity between now and Monday for everybody concerned to discuss the matter.
Mr. Attlee: Can it be discussed through the usual channels?
Mr. Crookshank: Through the usual channels, if the right hon. Gentleman likes.
Captain Waterhouse: Has my right hon. Friend had an opportunity of considering the question I raised last week, whether time could be given to discuss the second special Report of the Estimates Committee? Before he replies may I ask him whether he is aware of the extreme difficulty which faces the Estimates Committee, a most important Committee set up by this House with very definite duties to perform, and which finds itself precluded by the rules of the House apparently from carrying out its duties as it thinks they should be carried out?
Mr. Crookshank: I am sure that my right hon. and gallant Friend knows the answer to his first question, because I have had the pleasant opportunity of discussing the matter with him and other hon. Members since last week. If there is a genuine desire in all parts of the House to have this matter debated perhaps it could be discussed through the usual channels, though I do not think that at this time of the Session it could be anything but for a short time for the reasons I have already stated, namely, that financial Measures are the chief things that we have to debate in the immediate future. But perhaps that can be discussed through the usual channels.
Captain Waterhouse: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for what he has said, but may I draw has attention to the fact that there is a little urgency in this matter because there are only about 10 working weeks left until the Summer Recess and certain steps have to be taken by the sub-committee if the House so desires?
Mr. Jay: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is essential that this House should retain control over the ever increasing volume of Government expenditure abroad?
Mr. Crookshank: That is not the real question at issue. That is only the question behind the question at issue.
Mr. Woodburn: Can the Lord Privy Seal say whether the relief that has been granted to the teachers in England will also apply to the teachers in Scotland?
Mr. Crookshank: I do not quite know what the right hon. Gentleman is referring to. I was speaking of the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill.
Mr. Woodburn: Does that relief apply to the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill for Scotland as well?
Mr. Crookshank: As far as I know there is only one Bill. It is not a question of relief at this stage, except possibly for hon. Members opposite.
Sir H. Williams: As there are no usual channels functioning in regard to Monday's business, and as somebody fixed up with somebody unknown to us to debate on Monday an unknown Motion, is it not about time that the rest of the House was treated with some respect and given some information?
Mr. Crookshank: The Motion has not appeared on the Order Paper, but I have an idea that its terms are well-known to quite a number of hon. Members. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I have not got it, but if hon. Members are drafting a Motion to put before the House, presumably, in the normal course of events, they will discuss it with other hon. Members. I myself cannot take it any further than that.
Mr. Yates: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a report from the Estimates Committee was issued to this House three years ago and the sub-committee then examining the matter was presided over by no less a person than the present Solicitor-General. The Committee actually reported to the House a suggestion that consideration should be given to the manner in which proper supervision can be exercised by the Committee over expenditure authorised by Parliament which is incurred in foreign territories? As no action was taken, and a special Report has been in the hands of the Government for five weeks, is it not reasonable to ask the Government to treat the Committee with more respect and give it an adequate opportunity to examine the expenditure? Can
2296
we have a definite assurance that the issue will be resolved in a very short time?
Mr. Crookshank: I cannot ever promise that any issue will be resolved, but I have no doubt that the hon. Member heard the interchanges between myself and my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leicester, South-East (Captain Waterhouse). If there were a general desire in all parts of the House for a debate the usual channels could discuss whether it should take place and, if so, how much time should be available for such a debate. I said that I feared it could not be debated for very long. I hope that that will satisfy the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Nicholson: In regard to the Estimates Committee, may I ask my right hon. Friend how he expects that the general desire of the House will be expressed? In regard to the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, can he say whether any burden additional to that provided for in the Estimates will be passed on to the taxpayer by reason of the postponement of the Bill?
Mr. Crookshank: I really do not know, and I hope that 1 shall not be asked to go into the details of the Bill at the moment. I did say, in an earlier reply, that the longer the interval the greater would be the deficiency that would have to be met. As to how we can tell whether or not there is a general desire for a debate, I should not like to lay down any particular rule on the subject, but, generally, if we find that the Leader of the Opposition supports a movement in other parts of the House for a debate, it indicates that more than one group is interested.
Mr. Pannell: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the deficit which he envisages, owing to the delay in the introduction of the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill, is a responsibility of the Government because they are delaying this legislation? Seeing that the Government can no longer govern their own back benchers, ought they not to have the grace to get out?
Mr. J. Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill is viewed with extreme dissatisfaction by teachers? Will he

2297
therefore, be less ambiguous and tell the House whether, as the teachers do not want it, he will bury it, or whether he intends to have it enacted in the coming Session?
Mr. Crookshank: On the assumption that the rule against repetition still applies, I ask the hon. Gentleman to study the carefully phrased answer which I have already given on this subject?
Mr. Osborne: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House who is responsible for the Motion that we are to debate on Monday? Since most hon. Members leave the House tonight and will not be here again until Monday—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh‡"]—tomorrow being a Private Members' day—is it not unreasonable to expect most hon. Members to leave this House in the knowledge that such an important matter is being discussed but without knowing who is to be responsible for the Motion?
Mr. Crookshank: I have an idea that I could almost speak for all parties in the House by saying that today will provide them with an opportunity of going further into the matter.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  TELEVISION BILL
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee [Progress, 19th May.]
  [Sir CHARLES MACANDREW in the Chair]

  TELEVISION BILL

    Clause 2.—(POWERS OF AUTHORITY.
    Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 3, at end, insert:
    "shall (a) themselves provide in the programmes all items of current news, and."—[Sir L. Plummer
    Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    3.44 p.m.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I propose to make some comments on two of the speeches that were made in the debate last evening before it was interrupted by the operation of the Guillotine. I regret very much that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. Elliot) is not in his place. [HON. MEMBERS: "He is."] I apologise.
    Mr. Walter Elliot. Does the right hon. Gentleman wish me to offer him any comment or advice?
    Mr. Edwards: I looked for the right hon. Gentleman in the usual place and I did not know that he had moved up. My general impression was that, in these days, he was moving down. Be that as it may, the right hon. Gentleman is here, and, therefore, I shall be much more free to say what I want to say in relation to what, coming from him, I thought was one of the most disgraceful speeches I have ever heard him make in the House.
    The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday that he was almost persuaded to support the Amendment but for the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman ever had any intention of supporting the Amendment, but that that was a piece of window-dressing as a preliminary to an attack upon my hon. Friend. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] The right hon. Gentleman then proceeded completely to misrepresent, as I thought, what my hon. Friend had said, and, having

    2299
    misrepresented my hon. Friend's case, he went on to destroy it. Although he said that he wanted to smear no one, I thought the right hon. Gentleman deliberately went out of his way to indulge in a smear of which he ought to be ashamed.
    After all, the right hon. Gentleman— and I say this very seriously—when he was Minister of Health, commanded from all sides of the House the highest degree of respect. He was then talked of as a future Prime Minister, but, apparently, in these days, he has politically degenerated to such an extent that, no matter what comes from his own Front Bench, he is always prepared to cover it up with a lot of dreary drivel, and go out of his way to insult hon. Members on this side of the House.
    I hope that the right hon. Gentleman has read his speech, and that he feels thoroughly ashamed of it. I thought that the speech of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) dealt with any substance that might have been in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove, and I will leave it there.
    Coming now to the Assistant Postmaster-General, we had a masterpiece of dissembling. I was astonished at the hon. Gentleman's adroitness in moving from one position to another and in abandoning all the safeguards which his right hon. and learned Friend had given to the House, and doing it all in the interests of his commercial friends, for whom, apparently, he spoke.
    The hon. Gentleman said that, if the Authority presented news itself, it would have to have an outside broadcasting unit and an editorial staff, and, apparently, he regarded that as something that ought not to exist. He evidently thought that the Independent Television Authority ought not to have studios, and ought not to have any programme capacity at all. That was his view, but the hon. Gentleman went on and said that, if we laid a direct responsibility on the Authority itself to put out news, it would be tantamount to not trusting the Authority. But he regarded it with an element of trust, apparently, in saying that the Authority should be able to send out news itself. He first said, "We are not trusting the Authority," and then declared that it was
    2300
    to have facilities for doing so. That is, indeed, cockeyed logic.
    The hon. Member went further when my right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary put a point to him very clearly. He said that, in exceptional circumstances and as a last resort, the I.T.A. itself could provide the news. How is it to present the news if it has not studios and the authority to employ an outside broadcasting unit.
    I am wondering which line the hon. Gentleman will take. The 1953 White Paper provided that £750,000 should be spent on studio facilities to enable the Independent Television Authority to handle news, political broadcasts, religious broadcasts and children's programmes. There is already provision in the Bill for the Authority to do it. How does the hon. Gentleman deal with the matter? Let me take what he said to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede), yesterday:
    "Does the hon. Gentleman mean to say that the last alternative that the Authority is to consider is broadcasting the news itself?.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General replied:
    "I should say, yes. I am quite happy to admit that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th May, 1954; Vol. 527, c. 2239.
    According to that statement, the Independent Television Authority will have studios and an outside broadcasting unit and, in the last analysis, will have authority to give the news. Is that what the hon. Gentleman really means? That is what he said in answer to the interjection of my right hon. Friend in this Committee. He now shakes his head and seems to indicate that that is not what he really meant.
    Although that is not what he meant, it is provided in his own White Paper that the Independent Television Authority would have these facilities in order to put out the news. Now, when we say they should have this authority, and when we want to make it obligatory upon them to use it, the hon. Gentleman has all sorts of reasons for not agreeing to our Amendment. The Assistant Postmaster-General has said it is not intended that the Independent Television Authority shall have programme-making capacity. Where does the truth lie in that statement? Perhaps the right hon. Member for Kelvingrove will observe that his hon. Friend is applying the method that he

    2301
    mentioned, which was, "Aim high, aim low and then hit the target." There is so much dissembling in this matter that we do not know where we are.
    Is not this the position? The Independent Television Authority cannot handle news on its own? The hon. Gentleman knows they cannot and his answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields was quite misleading. I do not want to be harsh about this matter, but the hon. Gentleman knew when he gave that answer and after we had dealt with two Amendments, that the Independent Television Authority was being robbed of the right to issue the news itself.
    Captain L. P. S. Orr: Why should it?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: We had been given an undertaking that the news was to be impartial and objective.
    The Bill lays it down, and it appears in previous speeches and in the White Paper, that there are certain things that the Independent Television Authority will have to do for itself so as to ensure impartiality. An assurance that there would be impartiality and objectivity in regard to news was given in the House of Lords to try to calm the opposition that was rising there among friends of the Government's supporters, and the I.T.A. was to be given £750,000 a year to handle these things itself. To ensure that it shall have such facilities the Bill provides for them in Clause 2 (1, b).
    Now we are told that it is not to be allowed to do so. That is what we have been arguing about. The hon. Gentleman is handing the I.T.A. completely over to the programme companies. The people who will handle the news will probably be the programme companies. Apparently that is the position that the hon. Gentleman takes up. How is the Independent Television Authority to be independent if it is completely in the hands of the programme companies?
    Mr. Eric Fletcher: Is not the matter made worse by the fact that there is every reason to believe that some of the great national newspapers may themselves become programme companies or interested in programme companies? Have we yet had any denial from the Assistant Postmaster-General that the "Daily Mail" or the "Daily Express" groups or some other group
    2302
    may become programme companies and be interested in giving biased and impartial accounts of the news?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: That intervention emphasises what I have been asking. It is proved now that the I.T.A. cannot give news itself. If the hon. Gentleman persists in saying that it can, would he look at the Amendments that he has put on the Order Paper? He will see that this matter is to be handled entirely by programme companies and that the I.T.A. will not be a programme company. News will be handled by a second or third party.
    We are not told whether the programme company that handles it will be paid for by the I.T.A. or by advertisers. Is the programme company when broadcasting the news to put out advertisements and get money in in that way? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Are we coming back to the question, "Why should there be any news at all?" a point we discussed earlier in the debate, and is now being raised by someone who was not then present? If so, the Guillotine did not perform its task efficiently.
    The Government appear to have resiled from the undertaking which they originally gave. They are changing the nature of the Bill as they go along. They are robbing the Independent Television Authority of any independence it may have had. In the later Amendments, especially, they are taking away from the Authority the right to handle the news. That is contrary to the statement made by the hon. Gentleman yesterday.
    4.0 p.m.
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. David Gammans): If it wishes to do so, the Independent Television Authority can, in fact, handle the news. I said that last night in answer to the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede). It has been given the money to do it.
    Mr. Ness Edwards rose—
    Mr. Charles Ian Orr-Ewing: Withdraw.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not withdraw. I would ask the hon. Member to keep that in mind when he discusses his own Amendment. We shall then see whether or not he can substantiate the word he has now used.

    2303
    We are completely dissatisfied with this position and we shall express that dissatisfaction in the Division Lobby.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted.
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 232.

    Division No. 109.]

    AYES

    [4.1 p.m.

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Grimond, J.

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    Adams, Richard

    Hale, Leslie

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Albu, A. H.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Pannell, Charles

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.)

    Parker, J.

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

    Hamilton, W. W.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Awbery, S. S.

    Hannan, W.

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Hargreaves, A.

    Popplewell, E.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Porter, G.

    Bence, C. R.

    Hastings, S.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bern, Hon. Wedgwood

    Hayman, F. H.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Benson, G.

    Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.)

    Proctor, W. T.

    Beswick, F.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. R. (Rowley Regis)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pursey, Cmdr H

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Holman, P.

    Reeves, J.

    Blackburn, F.

    Holmes, Horace

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Holt, A. F.

    Reid, William (Camlachie)

    Blyton, W. R.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Boardman, H.

    Hudson, James (Ealing, N.)

    Ross, William

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Royle, C.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Brookway, A. F.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon E.

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Short, E. W.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Janner, B.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Carmichael, J.

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Champion, A. J.

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent, N.)

    Chapman, W. D.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgfield)

    Clunie, J.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Collick, P. H.

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Snow, J. W.

    Cove, W. G.

    Keenan, W.

    Sorensen, R. W

    Craddook, George (Bradford, S.)

    Kenyon, C.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

    Steele, T.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Kinley, J.

    Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.

    Daines, P.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Carmook)

    Stross, Dr Barnett

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Davies, Rt. Ho. Clement (Montgomery)

    Lewis, Arthur

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Davies, Harold (Leak)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Deer, G.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Mclnnes, J.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Dodds, N. N.

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Thornton, E.

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)

    McLeavy, F.

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Usborne, H. C.

    Edelman, M.

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Viant, S. P.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Warbey, W. N.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Manuel, A. C.

    Watkins, T. E.

    Edward, W. J. (Stepney)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mason, Roy

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Messer, Sir F.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Fernyhough, E.

    Milkardo, Ian

    Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Mitohison, G. R

    Willey, F. T.

    Folliok, M.

    Monslow, W.

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Foot, M. M.

    Moody, A. S.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

    Forman, J. C.

    Morley, R.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Moyle, A.

    Willis, E. G.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Mulley, F. W.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huylon)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

    Murray, J. D.

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Nally, W.

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Glanville, James

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.

    Gooch, E. G.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C

    Oliver, G. H.

    Yates, V. F.

    Gray, C. F.

    Oswald, T.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Padley, W. E.

    TELLERS FOB THE AYES:

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanetty)

    Paget, R. T.

    Mr. Hoosod and Mr. Rogers

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    NOES

    Altken, W. T.

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S>

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Orr-Ewing, Chares Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Hay, John

    Osborne, C.

    Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Head, Rt. Hon. A. H.

    Page, R. G.

    Arbuthnot, John

    Heath, Edward

    Perkine, Sir Robort

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Hill Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Peyton, J. W. W.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Barlow, Sir John

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Pitkington, Capt. R. A.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Pitman, I. J.

    Beach, Maj. Hicks

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Powell, J. Enoch

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Profumo, J. D.

    Birch, Nigel

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Raikes, Sir Victor

    Bishop, F. P.

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Black, C. W.

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Redmayne, M.

    Boothby, Sir R. J. G.

    Hurt, A. R.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Boyd-CarpentBr, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Hutchison, James (Scotstoun)

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Bullard, D. G.

    Johnson, Howard (Kempton)

    Russell, R. S.

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Kaberry, D.

    Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Kerby, Capt. H. B

    Schofied, Lt.-Col. W.

    Carr, Robert

    Lambert, Hon G

    Scott, R. Donald

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Lambton, Viscount

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Channon, H.

    Langford-Holt, J. A

    Shepherd, William

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfiled)

    Smyth, Brig. J G. (Norwood)

    Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

    Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Lindsay, Martin

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Craddoek, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Linstead. Sir H. N.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Speir, R. M.

    Crouch, R. F.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.)

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lucas, Sir Jooelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Stevens, G P.

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Storey, S.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. MoA

    McAdden, S. J.

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Dormer, Sir P. W.

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Summers, G. S.

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Duthie, W. S.

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C N.

    Erroll, F. J.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Tilney, John

    Finlay, Graeme

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Fisher, Nigel

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Turner, H. F L.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Turton, R. H.

    Fort, R.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J K.

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Marples, A. E.

    Vosper, D. F.

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W)

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (HilIhead)

    Maude, Angus

    Wall, P. H. B.

    Gammans, L. D.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C.

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Mediicott, Brig. F.

    Ward, Miss I (Tynemouth)

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Mellor, Sir John

    Wellwood, W.

    Glover, D.

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Godber, J. B.

    Moore, Sir Thomas

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E)

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A.

    Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Cough, C. F. H.

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Cower, H. R.

    Neave, Airey

    Wills, G.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    NichoHs, Harmar

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Nicholson, Godtrey (Farnham)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Mr. Studholme and Major Conant

    Harris, Reader (Heston)

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D

    Dr. Edith Summerskill: I beg to move, in page 4, line 3, at the end, to insert:
    "shall
    (a) themselves provide in the programmes all items intended for the entertainment or education of children under the age of sixteen, and.
    The purpose of this Amendment is to protect children from the most harmful effects of commercial television. We on this side of the Committee have appealed frequently to the Assistant Postmaster-General to protect the public at large from what we regard as the evil consequences of commercial television, but he has proved obdurate. I am this afternoon asking the hon. Gentleman at least to be selective, and to protect what we consider is the most impressionable section of the community from what might be the harmful effects of this new medium of propaganda.
    It might well be asked whether advertisers will be interested in children as customers—because, no doubt, as has been mentioned on many occasions, the programme contractors will have in mind the interests of the advertisers. It is quite clear that children as spenders will not be of much interest to advertisers, but children as forming a pressure group are very important.
    An advertiser can produce a most attractive advertisement advertising, let us say, biscuits, jellies and all kinds of things which children are fond of, and they will endeavour to persuade their parents to buy these products. I have no doubt that small boys will not be attracted by advertisements for soaps or detergents, but these other things like sweets, biscuits, lemonade, orangeade, and so on will appeal to them. This being so, the programme contractor will then be concerned with the kind of item which will attract the child's attention.
    Clearly, the advertisement will fail in its object unless, in the first place, the child is attracted to the screen. There we find the difficulty. I do not think that the Assistant Postmaster-General could argue that the programme contractors would not be concerned with the kind of unhealthy sensational item which would attract boys and girls who long for novelty. Unless he introduces an item of this nature then, as I say, the advertisers will not be interested.
    2308
    I know that it has been argued that films do not have an adverse effect upon children. I think there has been a very high-powered committee set up to investigate this subject and that they have reported and came to the conclusion that films of an unpleasant character do not affect the child. This is a debatable point. Let us remember that in the past a child went to the cinema perhaps only once a week. Now we are discussing a medium of propaganda which will be brought right into the child's home.
    4.15 p.m.
    Indeed, so far as the cinema is concerned, a small child is protected. I think that an unaccompanied child under 16 is not allowed into the cinema when certain films are being shown, so there is some measure of protection for that impressionable person. What protection is there here? A child can arrive home and, sometimes even in the absence of the parents, can turn a knob—
    Mr. Philip Bell: My brother-in-law has a key and locks his television set.
    Dr. Summerskill: I congratulate the hon. and learned Gentleman's brother-in-law on having a key and being able to use it at the right time. But surely the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that that is exceptional. Could we tell all the owners of television sets that they must have a key and ensure that on certain occasions the set is turned off? 1 think the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that that is quite impracticable.
    I ask hon. Members who are interested in this matter at least to help us to protect children. It has been argued that commercial television has no harmful influence, but surely there will always be a temptation for children, for whom I am pleading, to go to the television set. It is highly undesirable that children should stay up late at night and look at television, but it is happening in nearly every house in the country. I hope that the time will come when children, and their parents, will be more selective, and that parents will be firmer and will say that the right thing to do is to go to bed.
    Most hon. Members opposite are parents, and I think they would agree that it is not so easy to control one's children. It is a little difficult to ask parents of strong-minded infants to enter

    2309
    into an argument with their infants every night of their lives—because that is what it comes to. I hope that the time will come when the child will get a little tired of television and will decide to go to bed.
    My argument is that when commercial television is introduced, the programme contractors will have an incentive to put on sensational items—the blood-and-thunder stuff with which we are familiar. Can any hon. Gentleman argue that that is desirable? It is not desirable. Can we as a nation afford to allow children, perhaps every day of their lives, to look at films which we would consider undesirable? I do not want to repeat myself; I said this on Tuesday, but do not let us ignore it. Our prisons are overcrowded, with three prisoners in a cell. Our reformatories are packed. Our newspapers are filled every day with the lurid details of crimes committed by near adolescents.
    Can we ignore the fact that this medium of propaganda is very important, not only as entertainment but for educational purposes as well? The adolescent is very near the child. We are discussing a form of propaganda to which the child will be subjected during its impressionable years. Therefore, I ask the Committee to consider carefully the advisability of introducing this veto and placing upon the Authority the responsibility for providing these items. I hope that the Committee will consider this Amendment in a responsible way and will accept it.
    Sir Robert Grimston: The question of children's programmes in television has caused some disturbance of thought among a number of people, but I must say that the speech of the right hon. Lady the Member for Fulham, West (Dr. Summerskill) dismayed me, because I do not believe that the moral fibre of this nation will be strengthened by the State always having to step in between parents and their children. I speak as a father, and I believe it is up to parents to take some responsibility in this matter.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Would the hon. Gentleman favour the abolition of film censorship on those grounds, so that no "H" certificates were given to films?
    Sir R. Grimston: No, I should not. The right hon. Lady said, in the case of films, that children can go to the cinema.
    2310
    She emphasised, however, that television comes to their homes. Parents cannot always go to the cinema, but they are the authority in their homes, or ought to be. so that the two cases are not analogous.
    We are discussing in the Amendment films specially provided for educational purposes or for such programmes as Children's Hour on the B.B.C. There is nothing to prevent children under 16 from seeing any film in their homes if their parents permit it, but we are here dealing particularly with Children's Hour. In passing, I read the other day of protests in all directions about a blood-and-thunder film put on by the B.B.C. which could have been seen by any child under 16, so that the safeguard does not seem to be in having control by a State authority.
    We on this side of the Committee support the Bill which is to set up an Authority to overlook these matters. The Amendment says that the Authority should itself be the only body to produce Children's Hour films. We believe that the Authority will have sufficient standing and power under the Bill to see that the programmes which it commissions for Children's Hour are proper programmes. We must trust the Authority. It is no good setting it up if, whenever such a question of this arises, the Opposition say, "The Authority will be unable to exercise control in seeing that the programmes which it commissions are proper."
    Mr. F. Blackburn: The hon. Member is restricting himself entirely to Children's Hour. What about the schools broadcasts? Would not they be a matter to be considered in this connection?
    Sir R. Grimston: I am sorry. I was using the Children's Hour to illustrate my argument. The Amendment would cover the schools programmes, but I cannot for the life of me see why a programme contractor should not be able to produce a programme for schools. I cannot understand that point of view. These contractors may well produce excellent programmes, perhaps not better than but certainly no worse than those of the B.B.C. I cannot see why they should be prevented from doing so.
    As we are setting up the Authority, we should leave it to the Authority to overlook and to settle the business of

    2311
    the programmes provided for Children's Hour and, possibly, for the schools. While I appreciate that there is some genuine misgiving in this matter, I think we should trust the Authority, which yesterday we strengthened by some Amendments which we passed.
    Miss Alice Bacon: I rise to support the Amendment, which has a two-fold purpose. First of all, it seeks to ensure that no educational programmes are run by commercial firms and, secondly, it seeks to ensure that no programmes intended for the entertainment of children under 16 are run by advertisers.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: By programme contractors.
    Miss Bacon: Particularly in view of what was said by the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston), I should like to pay tribute to the B.B.C. for the excellent standard of all their children's programmes, whether they are schools broadcasts or Children's Hour broadcasts. As a teacher, I often listened to the schools broadcasts, and I do not mind admitting that nowadays, if I have time at weekends, one of my most popular diversions, as I am sure it is with many adults, is to watch Children's Hour on television. Like many adults, I find great entertainment in the little people called Mr. Turnip, Hank, Sooty and others.
    It is not realised that the B.B.C. goes to enormous trouble to ensure that programmes are suitable for children. When I was a teacher I often listened to the schools broadcasts, and I can say that between the B.B.C. and the teacher there is a personal touch which can never exist between an advertiser and a teacher.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: A programme contractor. The hon. Lady has twice said "an advertiser." The two are quite different.
    Miss Bacon: The B.B.C. has people whose special job it is to travel round the schools to ensure that programmes are suitable for children. In my area there was an organiser for the north regional area who not only kept in touch with teachers by letter to see whether the programmes were suitable, but often came to the schools to watch the children
    2312
    as they listened to the programmes. This cannot be done by any other body as it can be done either by the B.B.C. or by the Independent Television Authority. Even if the provision of good programmes were the principal objective, other people could never be allowed into the schools as the B.B.C. is allowed into them.
    I know that hon. Members opposite will say that it is a matter for the teachers and that they need not put these programmes on; or that the local education authorities can say that the programmes are unsuitable and may not be used. I believe that unless we take steps to ensure that no educational broadcasts of this kind are provided, otherwise than by the Television Authority, we shall be taking the debate about commercial television into every local area, every local council and every local education authority. We should ensure today that this does not occur.
    I turn to the entertainment, or Children's Hour. My right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, West (Dr. Summer-skill) mentioned some of the things which can happen—the kind of horror films which we could have; but I think the worst effects of allowing these programmes to fall into the hands of commercial interests will be that commercial television for children under 16 will become the greatest nuisance which parents have ever known in this country.
    We all know what will happen. When we are watching that delightful programme, "The Appleyards," we may have another family on commercial television, and it may be said that Tom Appleyard or his equivalent was sucking sweets made by such-and-such a firm. We know that pressure will be put on parents to buy the things which are being advertised.
    At present, competitions are run on many of the Children's Hour programmes, and all the children are asked to do is to fill in a postcard and post it to Lime Grove. In future, children may be asked to enclose so many coupons from a certain packet of sweets or biscuits in order to ensure that they can enter the competitions.
    4.30 p.m.
    Hon. Members opposite may say, "Switch it off." I am sure many hon. Members opposite are parents, and if they have tried to switch off a television set

    2313
    when their small boys or girls want to see the continuation of a serial which they saw the week before they know exactly what happens. It is very difficult in these days for parents to discriminate between particular advertisements. Just as it is difficult for adults to discriminate, it is impossible for children under 16 to discriminate.
    The B.B.C. has a very high standard in this matter because its object is the provision of good entertainment and good education for children, whereas the advertisers wish to sell their goods, so there is a different approach and an approach which can be harmful to the children. I therefore say to the Assistant Postmaster-General that it is not much to ask that all programmes for children under 16, whether they be of an educational character or for entertainment, should be run by the Independent Authority and not by any other body.
    Mr. J. E. S. Simon: The right hon. Lady for Fulham, West (Dr. Summerskill) said that this Amendment was designed to deal with the position of children as a pressure group. I think that those who are parents will know very well what she means, but I do not believe that many of us would describe it in such forbearing or felicitous terms. The hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Miss Bacon) said that the set-up proposed in the Bill would be the greatest nuisance to parents. Is that not all quite fanciful? After all, parents, like politicians, very soon learn to resist pressure groups. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As I have no wish to incite controversy, perhaps I had better confine my observations to parents.
    It is certainly true that parents have to resist the pressure of children. There is an equal pressure for sweets, and it is as easy to lock up the television set as it is to lock up the sweets cupboard. It is said that locking-up should be exceptional. Children, normally, do what they are told, or should do. They can be trained, and if it is necessary action can be taken to prevent their looking at things which are unsuitable. It is exactly the same problem that parents have to deal with, not only in the sphere of television which is a comparatively small choice, but in literature, the cinema, and so on.
    2314
    There are many publications designed especially for children which are quite unsuitable, in the opinion of many parents, for their children, and parents see that they do not get into their children's bands. We do not propose to legislate to tell parents what they should do in the way of bringing up their children in that respect. The right hon. Lady said, "Should we tell the parents that they must lock up cupboards?" Of course not. We believe that the prime responsibility of bringing up children, especially in this sort of moral choice, rests with the parents, and it is because certain people think that they know better than the parents how to bring up their children, what they should look at and what they should not look at, what they should do and what they should not do that this Amendment has been put down.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: In view of the opinion which the hon. and learned Gentleman has expressed, does he also contend that we should get rid of the age of admission to public houses?
    Mr. Simon: I certainly would not do anything of the sort. That is a very different problem. The first difference is-that this is what is going on in the home. In the second place, there is a great deal of difference between alcoholic drink and reading matter and looking matter. We do not say that because children are not allowed into a public house we should impose a censorship on comics, on the "Rainbow" or "Tiger Tim" or other publications—of course we do not. We recognise that there is a sensible line to be drawn, and the place to draw it is at the door of the public house and not at the front door of people's homes.
    The argument was fanciful enough even when applied to parents, but with respect to the hon. Lady it is far more fanciful when we apply it to schools. After all, what is easier than for the school teacher to switch off a programme which she knows to be unsuitable for children. That is the first thing she does. It is directly within the scope of her authority, and it is quite fanciful to talk about it coming into the sphere of the local education authority. Of course it will not. It is the school's teacher who will decide what to put on and what to turn off, and if she feels it difficult to make the decision herself, she can always refer it to the head teacher. For

    2315
    these reasons, I trust that my right hon. Friend will resist the Amendment.
    Mr. Ralph Morley: The hon. and learned Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Simon) has overestimated the powers of parents to resist pressure from their children. I remember that during the time I was an acting teacher a parent sometimes came to me and said, "I cannot manage our Johnny, and I hope you will give him a good talking to." Sometimes the parent asked me to give Johnny more than a good talking to—a temptation which I always resisted. It would be a very great temptation to parents to keep their children quiet for a time by allowing them to watch the screen whatever may be the nature of the film portrayed on the screen.
    I think that the hon. and learned Member overrates the powers of the teacher in this direction. He says that it would be easy for the teacher to turn off the set if a film were being shown which she thought was not suitable for her class to see. But often the teacher does not know what the film will be like before it actually starts. The teacher says to the children, "In a quarter of an hour's time you are to have a nice treat and see a nice film" and then the film starts and the teacher is horrified by the type of thing which is portrayed and she turns it off. She cannot get away with that very easily so far as the children are concerned. It would make her very unpopular and the children would be very disappointed.
    I am intuitively strongly opposed to any form of censorship of the cinema, books or plays so far as adults are concerned. But children are in a different category. The child's character is not yet formed and the child has to be protected. We protect the child so far as the cinema is concerned. The child is not allowed to see some films at all and is not allowed to see others unless accompanied by an adult. I think that we should give some protection to our children in the matter of television films shown at home.
    I am certain, from my experience as an acting teacher for many years, that films do have a very strong influence on children. We can see it in minor matters—
    2316
    in their gestures, in their language, the slang they use, and the Americanisms they employ. There is no doubt that the film has a very strong influence in minor matters. I believe, also, that the film has a very strong influence on the deeper emotions, to which I will refer in a moment.
    I do not think that sex films make much impression upon children until they reach their 'teens. Sex films, for the most part, pass over their heads and are not understood. However, sadistic films, films of violence and cruelty, make a very strong impression upon children. Children are at one and the same time attracted to sadistic films and repelled by them. There seems to be some latent sadism in many children that, to a certain extent, makes sadistic films attractive to them.
    Unless there is a competent body of men and women to censor the kind of films to be shown at home on the television there will be a temptation to those who use films for advertising purposes to show sadistic films and films portraying violence so as to attract the greatest number of children as the watchers of the programmes. It is extremely important that we should not permit children to see films of a sadistic nature, or films which portray violence of any kind.
    The films to be shown at home need not necessarily be educational or instructive films. Educational and instructive films can be shown at school. The films shown at home should for the most part be amusing and entertaining. The child does not want to be educated and instructed all the time. He also wants to be entertained and amused, and so we want films that are entertaining and amusing but that in no way do harm to the developing character of the children or that may lead them into wrong paths. The Amendment would ensure that the films to be shown would be of the right sort.
    The chief harm the commercial film does to children is through setting before them a wrong pattern of what is valuable in life, giving them a wrong sense of values. Commercial films seem always to imply that to be happy one must be successful, and that successful people are those people who are the richest, most powerful and most popular. Also, they imply that to be rich and powerful and

    2317
    popular one need not have a prolonged education or much study or be industrious, that to be rich and powerful and popular all that is necessary is to be good looking and to be lucky.
    Dr. H. Morgan: And to do the other fellow down.
    Mr. Morley: Yes, and to do the other fellow down.
    Our commercial films are saturated with the materialism of the United States of America, which gives the children the wrong idea of what are the best values in life. We want the children to understand that one can be happy by leading an ordinary, quiet, useful life, without being extremely prosperous, extremely rich or extremely popular. The values that are portrayed in films for children should be those of or based on those of the Greek civilisation from which our civilisation is derived, and those films for the children should show that the best thing to do is to strive for the good, the true and the beautiful.
    I believe that the Amendment is more likely to ensure the showing of the right type of films for the children at home than is the Clause as it stands.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: All of us who are parents—and I am the father of four sons—look at these Amendments with care and consideration, but I think we all wonder whether they do not go too far by suggesting that the I.T.A. will be able to control the quality of the programmes only if it creates the programmes itself. I see no reason at all why the I.T.A. should not act as censor, to use the word of the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, North-East (Miss Bacon), without itself creating programmes. The programme companies will create the programmes and the I.T.A. can watch the quality of the programmes.
    4.45 p.m.
    As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Mr. Simon) said, the first responsibility must rest with the parents. I understand all the difficulties about persuading one's children to keep away from the television set, but we cannot allow the State always to be the only responsible body to say what programmes and at what times programmes shall be seen in the households of this country. The responsibility must
    2318
    remain with the parents, and I thoroughly agree with my hon. and learned Friend about its being the parents' responsibility to lock up the set. Indeed, I once wrote a letter to the Press on this subject, suggesting that there should be locks on television sets. If a little aid to parental authority is required, a padlock is a very useful adjunct.
    Mr. M. Follick: Was the letter published?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Yes, it was.
    Mr. Follick: Oh.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: It has been suggested that programme companies, because they are governed by commercial interests, will not put on high-quality programmes but will put on horror programmes. That has not been found to be the case in other media of entertainment, and I do not see why it should be found to be so only in this medium. I should have thought that the finest entainment that has ever been produced for the children of any generation was that of Walt Disney's films. They were produced and exhibited by commercial companies for commercial purposes, yet no one who has seen "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" or "Bambi"—
    Mr. Follick: Even "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" had to be altered on account of a horror sequence—horror considerations.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Good sense prevailed. An alteration had to be made.
    I have no doubt that the I.T.A. could also make suggestions for a change in a film to be televised. I am simply trying to make the point that commercial interests do produce very high quality entertainment that gives very great pleasure to the children. This is true not only of the cinema, but of books. Some of the children's books printed these days are excellently produced, with fine illustrations, and they are second to none.
    Miss Bacon: Surely there is a difference between commercial interests and commercial advertising. Walt Disney's films are not accompanied by commercial advertising.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I am glad that the hon. Lady has made that point even though it draws me somewhat aside from my argument.

    2319
    The commercial interest that is the creator of the programme is separate from the advertiser. That distinction is written into the Bill. Hon. Members have several times referred to the advertisers as creating the programmes. Nothing could be further from the truth than that suggestion. Some people thought and perhaps still think that there should be sponsored television, but the Bill separates the advertiser from the creator of the programme.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: Does the hon. Gentleman contend then that the children's programmes should not be paid for by advertisements but directly by the I.T.A., or that the programmes should not be for advertising purposes but for entertainment purely?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: The I.T.A. can be relied on to set up its own standards and to make its own rules. It is to be provided with £750,000, and if it thinks fit it will commission programme companies to produce children's programmes without any advertisements in them. That may well come about, but I still do not accept the idea that the I.T.A. must itself create the children's programmes.
    I come to the second part of the Amendment dealing with education. Many of us understand that the potentialities of television, particularly as an education medium, are tremendous, but there are very considerable problems to be overcome. To start with, as someone has already rightly said, it is difficult to keep large classes of children in order even in daylight. One can imagine how much more difficulty there would be in a blacked out classroom.
    One can imagine, for instance, how much easier it is in a blacked out classroom for a boy at the back of the form to insert the spike of a compass into his nearest enemy. Children cannot be properly supervised in a blacked out room, and until we have more brilliant pictures and bigger pictures we shall not make much progress with television in the schools.
    The U.S.A. has over 100 sound broadcasting stations devoted entirely to educational matters. I believe that for some years to come sound broadcasting may be the better medium for education
    2320
    and that we should go ahead rather slowly with these experiments in the educational medium until we have overcome the technical difficulties and worked out a system which is generally acceptable to the schools and the country. But surely that does not mean that at this stage, when we are starting an experiment, we should say that the I.T.A. must be the only people to create educational programmes. Surely we can rely on their good sense.
    I should like to summarise what I have said on this issue. As more television comes into the homes, it becomes even of greater importance that parental control should be exercised and should govern the. children as to what they see and what they do not see. As the hours of television are increased, children, of their own free will, become much more selective. When there was only one hour of children's programmes a day, my children used to look at them. Now that there are longer hours of children's programmes, they become highly selective and switch off within two minutes of the start of something that bores them and they turn to something else.
    I think that children will become even more selective. Parents are a second line and should govern what the children look at. Behind both those filters, as they might be called, remains the I.T.A. Surely it can be relied on to see that the standard of entertainment is first-class, every bit as good as the B.B.C. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. and learned Friend will resist the Amendment and will rely on the I.T.A.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The hon. Member has made a very interesting speech. Would it be "fair to conclude from it that he would not altogether be against a provision that children's programmes should not have advertisements in them? Leaving aside for the moment the question of who puts on the programmes, would that be a fair deduction from what the hon. Member said?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: We must feel our way on this. We should be taking far too much on our shoulders in trying to lay down a hard and fast set of rules of what the I.T.A. should or should not do. Let us see the way it develops. Do not let us write these rules into a Bill which,

    2321
    after all, is brought forward in a fairly experimental form and at an experimental time.
    Dr. Horace King: Nobody on this side dissents from hon. Members opposite in the general point of view that parents have tremendous responsibilities for their children. Nothing we have achieved in the welfare State abrogates from parents' responsibilities. In all aspects of life we have secured certain protective charters for English children, not as some negative things but as a positive way of helping both children and parents. And so we do not put forward the Amendment in any negative way.
    Each of the hon. Members opposite who has spoken so far has almost given us our case, because they have suggested that there will be items in the commercial television programmes from which wise parents would do well to protect their children. One after another has said, "We must lock the doors of the set to prevent our children seeing these programmes." I wonder sometimes how often the B.B.C. is going to be criticised for its rare lapses of good taste, how often the single use of a bloody documentary has been used as a means of attacking the enormous range and quality of the B.B.C's. programmes, on the one hand, and why all American films should be put under the protective umbrella of Walt Disney, for whom everybody in the House has a tremendous affection, on the other.
    The Government ought to accept the Amendment wholeheartedly. It is in the spirit of the Clause. The Clause itself accepts the principle of the Amendment, because in subsection (2, a) the Government's own Bill asks the Authority to
    "provide parts of programmes for the purpose of securing the inclusion in the programmes of items of particular classes which in their opinion are necessary"—
    we believe that children's programmes are necessary—
    "… and cannot, or cannot as suitably, be provided by programme contractors.
    Because we believe that this kind of programme cannot be suitably provided by programme contractors, in the Amendment we name and instruct the Authority to provide it.
    2322
    I do not want to paint lurid pictures of the kind of television programmes that are shown to children in America—I have never seen any of them and I have never been to America. Any impression of mine would be tendentious, and I think we should be blaming a set of programmes partly because they were American—and Americans have their own way of life—and partly because they were not so much American as commercial. But we can judge the kind of programme that we are afraid of by considering the parallel problem of what is going on as far as British children in the cinema are concerned.
    I am very pleased that the Home Secretary is present this afternoon. I know he shares the interest of the Departmental Committee on Children and the Cinema which reported to him some time ago. I hope there will soon be regulations to protect young children against the worst features of the cinema. The Committee's Report—it was not a party Report—showed wholeheartedly that children who are exposed to fear, violence, cruelty, sadism and all the glamour and unhealthy atmosphere of emotion in a darkened room, can be hurt. It speaks of the
    "continual exposure to such films"
    as undermining the
    "child's social sense and may from its beginning vitiate his training for citizenship.
    It speaks of the distortion of history and biography, the over-simplification of problems and the deepest harm that is done, not by the more lurid and violent aspects, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Itchen (Mr. Morley) pointed out, by the pervasive effect of continual harping on false values, in which tragedy becomes horrific and comedy becomes slapstick and farce.
    That is not because of something particularly vicious in film-makers. It is part of the mark of the commercial culture in which we are bringing up our children. Commercial culture consists not only of the best books, poems and works of art, to which the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing) referred, but it also consists of the worst films, books and pictures. We seek to prevent the addition to a group of bad cultural influences on our children of a new one—the worst children's television.

    2323
    As far as children are concerned, Gresham's Law that the worst does drive out the good, seems to be true. (HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I speak with some feeling. I rarely refer to my own professional experiences before I entered the House, but for 25 years it was my task to attempt to convey to young boys of 17 and 18 years of age something about the value of a word, the great and permanent sublimity of Homer and Shakespeare, the detailed examination of a logical argument in good prose, the splendour and majesty or the charm of a lyric, and all the rest of our precious heritage in English literature.
    The world outside, with its tremendously powerful impact of sensationalism, was the enemy of the teacher in that task.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Especially the Press.
    Dr. King: If that is true of the grammar school master, teaching maturer children of 16, 17 or 18, how much more difficult is the task of the infant teacher and the junior school teacher, competing against this commercial culture outside.
    It is bad enough that after a few years in school, children will be flung into this culture to make their own way. It is bad enough that they are subjected to it outside the classroom during their school life. What we seek to prevent is that part of the programmes of the new powerful instrument of television shall itself contribute to fight against the invaluable work that is going on inside the schools. I should have thought that the commercial interests interested in this Bill would have conceded us this Amendment.
    5.0 p.m.
    I do not agree with my right hon. Friend's suggestion that there is an advertising sales market among children. They will get their ice cream, their dolls and their cowboy suits independent of any advertising. Already we have the vast experience of a non-profit making, noncommercial B.B.C., both sound and television, to show us what excellent work can be done. We are inclined to take things for granted. From Derek McCullough and 2LO days onwards through the history of the B.B.C., there has been a steady and marvellous development in children's programmes, to which Lord Hailsham, in another place, paid a moving tribute in a recent debate.
    2324
    I have a little grandson, and for two years I have watched him wait eagerly for just before two o'clock when the programme devised for the little ones comes on the radio. Anyone watching his wrapt attention would know that behind that programme were capable, skilled people achieving something really good and fine and really remarkable. In this case, I suggest we leave the task to the experts. Teachers do know something about their job.
    The B.B.C. has 20 years of devoted service in building up programmes and programme treatment. Above all, the problem of entertaining and educating children is the problem of doing so for entertainment and education alone and from no other angle, and this makes it absolutely essential that this part of the television programme should be reserved for the Authority itself. Probably nowhere in the world except in the Soviet Union is there anything offered in the way of children's radio entertainment so fine or so magnificent as what we are providing in this country.
    I wonder whether anyone outside the schools of Britain knows, for instance, how vast is the network of radio education that we have built up during the past 20 years. Television is going to be important for our children and it will be a greater influence than sound broadcasting. Its powers are quite colossal, and I suggest that we harness them from the start for the children so that later we do not have to face in commercial television the kind of problem we are facing in the commercial cinema, where a Government committee has to report on measures necessary to protect our children against the worst influences of the cinema.
    This is not a spoilsport Amendment. Anyone who has seen the infra-red photographs of little children with their hands over their eyes, cowering in the corners of their seats while looking at films which were supposed to give them entertainment, would realise how necessary it is to protect our children against something which is unpleasant. It is not that we want to shove nasty medicine down their throats because it is good for them, but we want to preserve our children against something which is not only harmful but which, in itself, is nasty and painful.
    Anyone who has seen the contrast from the infra-red photographs of children

    2325
    looking at films they ought not to see and the eager, happy children looking at the right kind of film which has been created for their proper entertainment would know that this Amendment which we on this side of the Committee are submitting is on the side of true happiness. I hope that the Home Secretary, who knows the effect of the cinema on the children, will support the Amendment.
    Mr. Gammans: I thought it might be of advantage to the Committee if at this stage I indicated the Government's general attitude towards this Amendment. First of all, I should like to welcome the right hon. Lady the Member for Fulham, West (Dr. Summerskill), and I hope she will find time to participate further in these discussions.
    There is no difference of opinion between us as to what we want to do. We all want to protect the children from undesirable influences. We are all alarmed at the amount of juvenile delinquency. The post-war boom, if that is the right word to use, in juvenile delinquency is alarming to all of us. The only thing that should give us a little reassurance is that this year, I believe, the figure has gown down by 14 per cent. I hope that tendency will continue and that the boom may prove to be a phase in the immediate post-war period.
    There is no difference in our aim, but the right hon. Lady bases the whole of her case, as did hon. Members on the other side of the Committee who followed her, on two assumptions. The first assumption is that a programme contractor cannot be trusted to put on anything by way of a programme except something harmful. These are the words she used, "Blood and thunder, sensational, and harmful stuff." If that assumption is correct, what she is seeking to do is the correct and logical thing.
    The second assumption she made was that if a programme contractor did that then the Independent Television Authority would have no power to stop it. The hon. Member for Itchen (Mr. Morley) was talking of a supervisory body, and he thought that there ought to be one. The fact is that there is one. The whole object of the Independent Television Authority is that finally it should be responsible for what goes out on the air
    2326
    and should act exactly in the very capacity he has suggested.
    If the two assumptions of the right hon. Lady were true, then I think we should be driven to doing exactly what she wants, whether it was convenient or inconvenient, whether we thought it desirable for other reasons or not. But I cannot accept those assumptions. I cannot accept the assumption that a programme contractor cannot be trusted. If we accept that assumption, then we get to the ghastly state of affairs in which we are impugning the interest and reliability of a very large section of the population of this country.
    If any programme company were to put out an undesirable programme, I cannot think of any quicker way by which it would do itself harm and do harm to the product which it was advertising either at the beginning or the end of the programme.
    Mr. G. R. Mitchison: May I ask the hon. Gentleman two questions? Is it the idea of the Authority to see that the programme contractors have proper regard to the children's needs and interests, and, if so, why is there not a word about it in the Bill?
    Mr. Gammans: If the hon. and learned Gentleman will wait, I am going on to deal with the powers of the Independent Television Authority, and I hope I shall succeed in convincing him that those powers are adequate. Before I do that, however, may I deal with the point raised by the hon. Lady the Member for Leeds, North-East (Miss Bacon) who was interested not so much in Children's Hour but in educational programmes. There are no such programmes yet on television, and we do not yet know how this particular line will, in fact, develop.
    Even supposing that an educational programme were put out by a programme company, would there be a risk—and I will not put it any higher—of its being a bad one? Why should the hon. Lady assume that there would be, I cannot imagine. I do not think there is any history to justify it. One of the finest publications produced in this country is the "Children's Newspaper." Who produces it? It is produced by private enterprise. It is not a State-run enterprise.
    Dr. Morgan: That is a very poor argument.
    Mr. Gammans: It is not a poor argument; it is a fact.
    Dr. Morgan: It is nonsensical.
    Mr. Gammans: Let us assume that the hon. Lady's fears have substance in them and that this programme is an undesirable programme. If there are television programmes in schools, I am assuming that they will be supervised by a teacher; indeed, there would be pandemonium if they were not. Can we not trust her to switch off the programme?
    Miss Bacon: Could the hon. Gentleman answer this question? Would he, then, agree to the people who will run the programmes under this Bill being allowed entry to the schools in the same way as are the B.B.C. representatives?
    Mr. Gammans: If it is decided that there are to be educational programmes by the new Authority—and that has not yet been decided—I should hope that it will have the good sense—it certainly has the power—to set up an education committee of some sort. I should think it would be foolish if it did not do so.
    Miss Bacon: Is the hon. Gentleman now suggesting that an authority of some kind, other than the B.B.C. or the Independent Television Authority, representing the commercial interests, shall now have the power to go into the schools?
    Mr. Gammans: No, I am not suggesting that. What I am saying is that these programmes—[Interruption.] May I intervene in this debate? As I was saying, what I imagine will happen, if it is decided by the Independent Television Authority to sanction programmes for schools, is that it will set up an advisory committee. I should imagine that that would be the way it would be done. But we are jumping several steps ahead of the point we are discussing.
    If the Opposition hold the view that anything put out by a commercial company must be bad, must be vicious, must pander to the lowest, it is clear that nothing I can say here this afternoon will shake hon. Gentlemen opposite. If they hold that view, I am sorry. I do not believe it to be true, I do not even believe it to be expedient. I cannot imagine
    2328
    anything more foolish, but, if that view is held, we must part company.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: If the hon. Gentleman is so prepared to trust programme companies, why does he set up the Independent Television Authority to control and check them?
    Mr. Gammans: That is a fair question, and I will give the answer. We are launching forth into something altogether new. The normal attitude in this country towards a new venture is to proceed with caution, and that is exactly what we are doing.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The hon. Gentleman does not trust them.
    Mr. Christopher Mayhew rose—
    Mr. Gammans: I cannot answer everybody at the same time. The idea is that there is a general desire of the people of this country that we should proceed with caution, and that is the justification for this Authority.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Surely the Government proceeded first, then had second thoughts, and the caution came very late in the day?
    Mr. Gammans: No, from the very beginning we thought of a controlling body. It has merely taken a different form.
    Mr. Mayhew: The hon. Gentleman said that on grounds of self-interest the programmes would not be bad because, if they were, the advertisers would not sell their goods. This shows one of the basic weaknesses of his case, that all the time in these children's programmes those who produce them will be looking over their shoulders at the advertisers and at the advertising interests. Therefore we say that, since it is not a programme whose motive is to educate the children, it must be basically dishonest and not good for the children.
    5.15 p.m.
    Mr. Gammans: I am not in the least ashamed of accepting the imputation of enlightened self-interest in any walk of life. With more enlightened self-interest the world would never go to war or do many other foolish things. If I cannot convince the right hon. Lady that these people are not bound to be rascals, I am

    2329
    sorry, and I must let it go at that. Now I come to her second point: what about the responsibility of the Authority? I said just now that, if the programmes were unsatisfactory, the Authority has the power to stop them.
    What are the powers of the Authority? There are two. The first is to arrange for the provision of programmes necessary to secure a proper balance, where it is convinced that they cannot be provided by companies. So the Authority has the power now, if it wishes to do so, if it considers it necessary, if it is convinced that the programme contractors cannot do it. What I am not prepared to do is to make that power obligatory. The second duty laid upon the Authority is to ensure that nothing offends against good taste or decency and that no offensive matter is put on.
    Do we trust this Authority or not? The Opposition must be prepared to take a stand one way or the other on this point, because we are about to discuss a number of Amendments where our case rests upon the powers that we have given to the Authority. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite really think in their hearts that the Authority is not to be trusted? If they do, they should say so. If they really believe that we shall appoint a body of men and women to this Authority who are not to be trusted to carry out these powers, in honesty they ought to say, "We do not trust you. We do not believe that if the right men and women are appointed, they will do their jab."
    Mr. Ness Edwards: How can the hon. Gentleman take up that attitude when he himself has said already that he does not envisage the Authority spending any money on studios. Does he not trust it?
    Mr. Gammans: I do not envisage the Authority spending any money on children's programmes.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: On studios.
    Mr. Gammans: Well, on studios. What I have said is that if the Authority cannot get these programmes in any other way, it can arrange to put on the programmes itself. What is more, it has the money to pay for them. If hon. Gentlemen opposite are going to say, "We do not think you are appointing the
    2330
    right men and women," or if they are going to accuse the Government of deliberately appointing the wrong lot, they should say so, because the point is whether the Authority will or will not be a trustworthy body and whether it will take seriously the responsibilities laid upon it.
    How do I envisage that this will work? That is a fair question. The way I imagine that the children's programmes—and also the educational programmes, if they come to this country—will work, is something like this—
    Mr. Mitchison: Before the hon. Gentleman gets on to that point, will he reply to my question? Has the Authority any special responsibility about children? If it has, why is there not a word about it in the Bill?
    Mr. Gammans: It has an overall responsibility towards everybody because of the Clause I have just referred to. I do not think there is need for special responsibility towards children. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Not if there is an overall responsibility closely defined, and what could be clearer than the Clause I have just referred to? [An HON. MEMBER: "As vague as anything."] Could anything be more comprehensive? How will it work? I do not know, because I am not to be a member of the Authority and neither is anybody else in this House; but I imagine that what the Authority will do will be to ask the programme contractors what are their ideas about children's programmes, and how they propose to put them on.
    Is there to be any advertising attached to them? There may be or there may not. I do not see anything basically wrong in having selected advertisements at the beginning and end of a children's programme.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: In the schools?
    Mr. Gammans: I do not know about the schools; that will be for the local authorities to decide. But I cannot see anything intrinsically wrong with having children's advertisements selected by the Authority. I would remind hon. Members that the whole code of advertisement has not only to be agreed by the Authority but approved by the Postmaster-General.

    2331
    I imagine that what would happen would be that the Independent Television Authority would go to the programme contractors and say, "What are your ideas for a children's hour?" If those ideas were satisfactory and the programmes conformed to these very exact standards which we have laid down, the Authority would approve of them. If they did not, the Authority would not approve, and either there would not be a children's hour connected with that station, or the Authority would commission its own programmes and pay for them out of the money provided by Parliament. I cannot imagine anything more watertight than that.
    I do not want to make an ordinary party debating point on this matter which is so important. Our interests on both sides of the Committee are identical. I do not want anything to go out on the air that is likely to be harmful to children. What Government would want to run the risk of allowing such programmes to go out? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yours."] I do not know whether I have convinced the right hon. Lady the Member for Fulham, West. Possibly I have not, but I cannot accept the assumption that anything that goes out from the programme contractors must necessarily, without any qualification, be a rotten programme. Neither can I accept the assumption that the Authority has not sufficient power to deal with such a question if it were to arise. Because I believe that the Amendment is quite unnecessary to achieve the end that we both have in view, I am afraid that I shall have to resist it.
    Mr. Blackburn: I do not think that the Committee has ever listened to a more unsatisfactory speech than that which has just been made by the Assistant Postmaster-General. It seems quite evident from the general tenor of his speech that he does not really appreciate the seriousness of this problem. Yet every speech from the other side of the Committee has emphasised the dangers that exist here, because hon. Members opposite say that there must be more parental control, that parents can switch off or look up the television set or that teachers can switch off. Do they imagine that a teacher will switch a programme on and in the middle, on finding it most unsatisfactory, switch off?
    2332
    Surely it is our duty to protect the children. I am very sorry that the Minister of Education is not present. She ought to have attended a debate of this importance. The Government say, "No." I never knew a Government which was so good at using so many words and saying "No." The Assistant Postmaster-General entirely evades the problem when he says, "Do you not trust the advertisers?" Why has he put all these restrictions in the Bill if he trusts the advertisers? Surely we are not going to have television programmes for children, either at home or in the schools, which are dependent upon the whims of advertisers.
    If speakers on the other side of the Committee come forward every time to say, "Do you not trust them?" we are getting no nearer the solution of this problem. That kind of response does away with the whole basis of argument. There are dangers here, and it is our duty as a Committee to take these necessary precautions. The Government have taken certain precautions in the provisions of the Bill, but they have not taken enough. We want to make quite certain that no advertising money shall be used on television programmes for children either at home or in the schools.
    Hon. Members are quite aware of the report that has been published on children's programmes in America, and it is the fact that recently the first public corporation for the provision of children's television has been set up in America. If everything was so wonderfully satisfactory when it was left to the advertisers to provide programmes why has that public corporation been set up? In view of the time, I leave the matter there, but I appeal to the Government to look at it again. In spirit they may be with us, but they are not prepared to give way. The only Amendment on which the Government gives way is an Amendment from the pressure group on the back benches opposite.
    Mr. I. J. Pitman: As a teacher and colleague, as a member of the Royal Society of Teachers and of the National Union of Teachers, of the hon. Members for Itchen (Mr. Morley), Test (Dr. King) and Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn), whose speeches I greatly admired

    2333
    in many respects, it might be helpful if 1 were to put the point of view that we want on both sides of the Committee, first, to avoid bad programmes and, secondly, to have better programmes by giving greater variety. Where we differ is on the means of achieving these ends.
    The right hon. Lady the Member for Fulham, West (Dr. Summerskill) seeks to achieve them in the Amendment, by giving a monopoly to the Independent Television Authority as the sole authority to create programmes for children, in parallel with the B.B.C. In contradistinction, we on this side of the Committee are anxious that the Independent Television Authority shall operate first as a selector of all that is good that is submitted to it by other creators of art in this field and, in default, that the Authority should have permission to do it itself if it is not satisfied with what is created. In other words, it is the general issue whether if one wants a job done in the field of art one should do it oneself or sit at the centre and select from what is submitted to one from as wide a circle as possible.
    If it were an issue of providing art for children and we set up an art-producing authority, it would not be producing the best art if it were the only art authority which should create pictures for children. The Authority is in a far better position if it can select from as wide a field as possible. That seems to be the general principle within the field of book publishing, where a teacher is far better served in selecting from as wide a field as possible than would be the case if we had
    a single publisher who alone produced that which the teacher might use.
    I believe that that is the real solution to the problem of providing what both sides of the Committee desire, which is first to ensure that nothing bad goes over the air. If Clause 3 is not wide enough, let hon. Members opposite move an Amendment having a specific reference to children's programmes among the safeguards provided in Clause 3, but in ensuring that the best be made available let the Television Authority have the widest possible field of selection.
    Miss Bacon: I am sure the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Pitman) would not wish to mislead the Committee. He mentioned at the beginning of his speech that he was a teacher and a member of the N.U.T., but I understand that his experience has not been in teaching in a school with children under 16 years of age. I hope he will also make clear that he was not speaking on behalf of any professional body of teachers, because the only professional body of teachers which has given any opinion on this matter was wholeheartedly in favour of the Amendment.
    Mr. Pitman: I should not like to mislead anyone. I said that I am a member of the Royal Society of Teachers. So far as my teaching experience is concerned, it certainly has not been in an infant school, but I have had a certain amount in secondary schools.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 226.

    Division No. 110.]

    AYES

    15.30 p.m.

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Adams, Richard

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich>

    ALBU, A. H.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Edelman, M.

    Allen, Scholefietd (Crewe)

    Carmichael, J.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse>

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly>

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Champion, A. J.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Baird, J.

    Chapman, W. D.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

    Clunie, J.

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Bence, C. R.

    Collick, P. H.

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Benson, G.

    Cove, W. G.

    Follick, M.

    Beswiok, F.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Foot, M. M.

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Forman, J. C.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Blackburn, F.

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Daines, P.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N

    Blyton, W. R.

    Daltott, Rt. Hon. H.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Boardman, H

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Gooch, E. G.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Davies, Ernert (Enfield, E.)

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Grey, C. F.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Deer, G.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Delargy, H. J

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Hale, Leslie

    McLeavy, F.

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, w.)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Hamilton, W W.

    Mann Mrs. Jean

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Hannan, W.

    Manuel, A. C.

    Slater, Mrs, H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Hargreaves, A.

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgfield)

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Messer, Sir F.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Hastings, S.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Mitchison, G. R

    Snow, J. W.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Moody, A. S.

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Morgan, Dr. H. B. W.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Morley, R.

    Steele, T.

    Holman, P.

    Moyle, A.

    Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

    Holmes, Horace

    Mulley, F. W.

    Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Murray, J. D.

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Hubbard, T. F.

    Nally, W.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Hudson, James (Eailng, N.)

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J

    Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Oswald, T.

    Thornton, E.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Padley, W. E.

    Turner-Samuels, M

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Janner, B.

    Paling, WilI T. (Dewsbury)

    Viant, S. P.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Palmer, A. M. F.

    Warbey, W. N.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Pannell, Charles

    Watkins, T. E.

    Jager, Mrs. Lena

    Pargiter, G. A.

    Weitzman, D.

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Parker, J.

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Parkin, B T.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Popplewell, E.

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham).

    Porter, G.

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Keenan, W.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Willey, F. T.

    Kenyon, C.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

    Proctor, W. T.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

    King, Dr. H. M.

    Pryde, D. J.

    WilIiams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Kinley, J.

    Pursey, Cmdr. H.

    Willis, E. G.

    Lawson, G. M.

    Reeves, J.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwiek)

    Reid, William (Camlachie)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Lewis, Arthur

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Ross, William

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Royle, C.

    Yates, V. F.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    McGhee, H. G.

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Mclnnes, J

    Short, E. W.

    Mr John Taylor and Mr. George Rogers.

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.)

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Glover, D.

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Godber, J. B.

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

    Gomme-Duncan, Col A

    Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Arbuthnot, John

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Gower, H. R.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Crouch, R. F.

    Grimond, J.

    Banks, Col. C.

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Barlow, Sir John

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Baxter, A. B.

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Beach, Mai. Hicks

    Davidson, Viscountess

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Bell, Philip (Bolten, E.)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Harris, Reader (HestoH)

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Digby, S. Wingfield

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Birch, Niget

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Hay, John

    Bishop, F. P.

    Drayson, G. B.

    Heath, Edward

    Black, C. W.

    Duncan, Capt. J. A. L.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Hill, Mrs. S. (Wythenshawe)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Hinchingbrooke, Visoount

    Beyle, Sir Edward

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)

    Erroll, F. J.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. w. H.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Fisher, Nigel

    Horobin, I. M.

    Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Bullard, D. G.

    Fort, R.

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Bullus, Wing Commander E. E.

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Burden, F. F. A.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Hurd, A. R.

    Carr, Robert

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Gammans, L. D.

    Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M.

    Charsson, H

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    2336

    2337

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Moore, Sir Thomas

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Mott-Radclyfle, C. E

    Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Nabarro, G. D. N.

    Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Neave, Airey

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Soames, Capt. C.

    Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W.

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Kaberry, D.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Speir, R. M.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Nugent, G. R. H.

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Langford-Holt, J. A.

    Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.

    Stevens, G. P.

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Stoodart-Scott, Col. M.)

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Storey, S.

    Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T.

    Osborne, C.

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Page, R. G.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Perkins, Sir Robert

    Studholme, H. G.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Summers, H. G.

    Longden, Gilbert

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Pitman, I. J.

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.

    Price, Henry (Lewisnam, W.)

    Tilney, John

    McAdder., S. J.

    Profumo, j. D.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    MeCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Retfmayne, M-

    Turton, R. H.

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Renton, D. L. M.

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Maclean, Fitzroy

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone)

    Macmillan), Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Walker-Smith, D. C

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Wall, P. H. B.

    Maitland, Comdr. J, F. W. (Hornocastle)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Russell, R. S.

    Wellwood, W.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Marples, A. E.

    Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Maude, Angus

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C

    Scott, R. Donald

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Mellor, Sir John

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Shepherd, William

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Mr. Vosper and Mr. Wills.

    Amendment proposed: In page 4, line 5, to leave out "themselves provide parts of programmes," and to insert:
    "arrange for the provision of parts of programmes otherwise than as aforesaid."—[Mr. Gammans.]
    The Temporary Chairman (Mr. James H. Hoy): For convenience, the Committee might deal, at the same time, with the hon. Gentleman's Amendment in page 4, line 11.
    Mr. Edward Shackleton: Are we not to have an explanation of the Amendment from the Government? It may be that the Assistant Postmaster-General has been confused by the decision which escaped the notice of the Committee, and to some extent, the notice of the Chair, when we were supposed to be discussing this Amendment with the Amendment relating to studios. On that occasion the Chair ruled that the discussion should be related to studios only.
    The Government have given no reason why the Authority should not itself provide programmes. It was part of the undertakings given by the Government in
    2338
    this House and another place that the Authority should be free to put on its own programmes in order to obtain a proper balance. Now, as a result of doctrinaire prejudice in favour of private enterprise—hon. Gentlemen opposite have never ceased in this debate to justify their actions by saying that it is better for private enterprise to do the job—the Government are going back upon an undertaking which was understood to be specific by people who are interested in the matter, namely, that the Authority should be free and in a position to put on its own programme.
    Now the Authority will no longer be free to do so except in time of emergency. It will have to put the programmes out to contractors. This will cost more, and it will run away with more of the taxpayers' money. This Measure is characteristic of many of the Government's actions. This is the most scandalous action that the Government has taken in regard to the Bill. The Government realised the real measure of criticism and complaint which existed in the country. They made certain concessions to assuage public feeling. Then, because

    2339
    of the criticism of hon. Gentlemen opposite and, in particular, certain gentlemen outside the House who are particularly interested in the development of programme companies and who have said that they are not interested in the Bill unless they have a big opportunity of making profit, they have now given everything away because they are afraid that their scheme will break down.
    The Government have produced no justification at all for what they are doing. The Assistant Postmaster-General, who knows that he gave no adequate explanation to the Committee last night, calmly says "I beg to move," and leaves it like that. I hope that the Committee will be given some explanation. We may not have time to divide on the Amendment. However, we have every intention of opposing everything in the Bill that we consider evil and of voting for everything which we think it would be good to have in the Bill. There are other Amendments of this type on which we shall divide if we can. It is part of the general Guillotine process that we have not adequate opportunity to discuss all these matters.
    5.45 p.m.
    Mr. Gammans: The only reason why I did not rise to explain this Amendment was that I was under the impression that what I said yesterday on a similar Amendment covered it. For the sake of the Opposition, I did not want to waste any more time than need be wasted, and I was hoping that that would be accepted by the Opposition. I hope that the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackle-ton) will accept what I have to say in that spirit.
    The only object of the Amendment is to clarify not so much what is to happen, but the Government's intention towards the Bill. We want to make it clear that the normal method of providing programmes will be through programme contractors. The hon. Gentleman suggested that we had altered something fundamental. We have altered nothing fundamental. We always anticipated that the normal method of providing programmes would be through programme contractors. We have now tried to remove any doubt that there may be on that point. There is nothing particularly significant about the Amendment;
    2340
    all it does is clarify the Government's intentions.
    I do not think that hon. Members always realise that the programmes on the B.B.C. are not all prepared by the B.B.C. itself; the B.B.C. commissions the preparation of many programmes. That is exactly what is to be done in the case of the Authority.
    Mr. Shackleton: Can the hon. Gentleman say what the percentage of commissioned programmes is?
    Mr. Gammans: I am about to tell the hon. Gentleman, and he must not anticipate my speech. The idea is held that every programme which goes out over the B.B.C. network is produced by the B.B.C. It is nothing of the sort. The B.B.C. has its own staff, but an enormous percentage of its programmes are commissioned from other persons. For instance, in the case of sport, the B.B.C. does not have its own team of tame runners or boxers to put on. Programmes are also transmitted from West End theatres. The idea of commissioning programmes, is not at all new. What the Government are doing here is to give what we consider to be the right emphasis upon our intentions in relation to the Authority and that is our only reason for the Amendment.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: We have not time to deal with what I regard as a gross betrayal. The hon. Gentleman cannot deny his own words. In the White Paper of November, 1953, we were told that the Authority would have the right to produce its own programmes. It could buy or contract for programmes prepared by outside bodies, but the right to produce its own programme was an essential part of the plan.
    The hon. Gentleman has denied what he said yesterday. He said yesterday that the Authority would be entitled in the last resort to put on its own programmes. The effect of the Amendment is to take that right away from the Authority. If the hon. Gentleman is going to trust the Authority, about which he has made so much play, ought he not to trust it in this matter, or is he going to tell it that it cannot do anything at all for itself? This is where the hon. Gentleman is meeting himself coming back.
    I notice that he has just been looking at the 1953 White Paper. The only conclusion that I can reach is that the Autho-

    2341
    rity, which was intended to perfect the new use of the medium of television, is now being delivered completely into the hands of the programme companies, that the log-rollers from the back benches opposite have got their way and that the element of decency in the Cabinet has been entirely thwarted by the tactics of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    I am sorry that we have not time to divide on this Amendment. The fact that we do not divide is no indication that we are not feeling very gravely disturbed by what is being done by the Amendment.
    Mr. Philip Bell: The point to which—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Yes, and I will give you something to think of, too. I was glad to hear the "compliments "that were paid to the Cabinet —[HON. MEMBERS: "To some Members."]—Yes, to some Members. I hope you—I hope hon. Members—will tell the other half—
    Mr. Ness Edwards: On a point of order, Mr. Hoy. The hon. and learned Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Philip Bell) has been referring to you. I wonder if you have been guilty of any of these things with which he charges you, or whether now, at this late stage, the hon. and learned Gentleman should be corrected?
    The Temporary Chairman: The hon. and learned Gentleman ought to refer to "Hon. Members" and not address the Chair as "you." But I did not interrupt him because I understood that the Committee wished to make progress.
    Mr. Bell: I thought I had corrected myself. It is a good trick, but it is not going to upset me at all—
    Mr. James Simmons: On a point of order, Mr. Hoy. Is it in order for the hon. and learned Member to accuse you of pulling off a good trick?
    The Temporary Chairman: It certainly would not be in order, but I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman was having words with hon. Members opposite. Perhaps the hon. and learned Gentleman will now address himself to the Amendment.
    Mr. Bell: I wish to voice a few remarks about the repetition that is going on. The issue is abundantly clear. On
    2342
    one side we want programme contractors to do the job. That principle is attacked by hon. Members opposite who have put down various Amendments. The arguments have been exhaustively examined. They are not strengthened by repetition, or possibly even by speeches. I do not think that they are assisted much by referring to persons who take this view as holding doctrinaire views. The hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) talked about doctrinaire views.
    The point at issue is quite clear. I only intended to rise in order to say how unnecessary it is to make these continual, very ineffective, very ungallant, very unskilled and not particularly witty attacks upon the Assistant Postmaster-General.
    Mr. Shackleton: May I draw the attention of the hon. and learned Member to the fact that I was quoting from a speech made outside by Lord Hailsham?
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. James Hudson: I beg to move, in page 4, line 10, at the end, to insert:
    "in particular (and so that such items shall not be provided by programme contractors) items of a religious character, and."
    According to the proposals of the Government the programmes shall not be provided by the Authority. But the Authority may, according to the intention of the Government, none the less provide parts of programmes for the sake of a "proper balance" and because there are some things which, in the words of the Bill,
    "cannot … be provided by programme contractors."
    In this Amendment we provide that programme contractors shall not produce programmes—we do not say "may not" but "shall not"—or parts of programmes of a religious character; and that they be entirely separated from such a function.
    With the development of public advertising in the last few years, as applied to religious organisations, there may be for some a temptation to adopt an easy attitude towards programme contractors. Even in the field of religion one knows of the illuminated cross, the floodlit dome, the hoardings, and Billy Graham, and all that can be seen in connection with public advertising where religion is concerned. None the less, there is a great

    2343
    underlying seriousness about this matter on the part of the majority of the community.
    I say that, generally, all hon. Members—including those who are not associated with any particular church or religious organisation—would not care to see any easy attitude adopted regarding the right of advertising contractors to use religious questions in order to make money. Where advertising contractors are concerned the making of money is involved, and if there is any association of religion with the money-making process it is generally to the detriment of religion. For that reason the necessity to keep the two entirely apart is of first-class importance.
    I speak as one who wishes to see continued the growing seriousness regarding religious questions, and the opportunity for their more effective consideration in a widening sector of the community. I believe that will be prejudiced if we do not come to a clear understanding that there is no scope for the advertising contractor where religious questions are concerned.
    It was the dictum of Lord Reith that religious broadcasting should be of such a character that what was broadcast would be—to use his words—
    "within the main stream of Christian tradition."
    That was as Lord Reith saw it. But now we are going further.
    There have been television broadcasts recently making clear what is Mohammedanism and Buddhism, and what the Jewish religion stands for. They were very effective broadcasts. I think that they have given rise to understanding and sympathy and of tolerance for other religious beliefs which is one of the finest attributes of our modern British democracy. Indeed, in my judgment, the impressive and effective portrayal of beliefs which we do not accept—but which we ought to understand when they are held by so many of our fellow citizens—has been the finest part of the work of the British Broadcasting Corporation.
    It is not a field, however, in which it is in any sense appropriate to introduce innovations by advertising contractors. I know there are possibilities in that
    2344
    direction, and that the advertising contractor could make something out of it if he were permitted to enter that field. But I should not like to see him there, with any dramatic flashes which he might provide from the Scriptures and religious history.
    6.0 p.m.
    I have been deeply moved by the dramatised versions of the Prodigal Son, the story surrounding the life of Everyman, or what I would call the apology for Pilate that was televised on a recent Sunday, although I did not feel very much impressed when the Red Sea was divided on the television screen—yes, actually divided—so that we could see the Israelites go through. I think that sometimes one can perhaps go a little too far.
    I am quite certain that this work of bringing dramatised versions of great religious events in human history in a new and better light, and perhaps a more sympathetic light, to the masses of the community has been very well done, and that it should continue to be done, by an indpendent corporation which takes the advice of a religious advisory committee. Although I think that work could be improved, this is not the time to raise that question. It could be made more representative of many trends of thought, but still the job has been done extremely well, and there ought to be no risk at all of this type of work coming into the hands of the programme contractors.
    With these considerations in mind, I ask the House to deal with this Amendment sympathetically—and more than sympathetically, as a matter of duty, considering that we are speaking here for a Christian nation. I know that the religious community with which I am connected does not care to involve itself at any time in what may be called the formalisms of religion, and accepts the view that from all manner and condition of men a religious message may come, according to the way in which the spirit moves men and women to give that message.
    I am only saying that the programme contractor's particular job is in a field far removed from religion and that it will be an ill thing if we should leave any possibility of his entering into the religious field. Although I should like to take a much longer time in moving the Amendment, I confine myself to saying

    2345
    that this is a matter about which I feel very seriously, that I hope we shall not permit this great work to come within the purview of the advertising contractor, and that it should be a matter only for the Corporation.
    Squadron Leader A. E. Cooper: The subject of this Amendment is one upon which there can be no party opinion, but it is a matter upon which we should spend a few minutes with very deep concern. We always listen to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) because on those subjects upon which he speaks he always engages our sympathy, because we know that he expresses views which are sincerely held. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman about this Amendment, and I think that he has overlooked one or two facts in our modern world, in which this particular job is being done unexceptionably.
    I should like to say a word or two about the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew), and I hope he will not take amiss anything I now say. The hon. Gentleman has presented a number of programmes, extending over the past few weeks, by means of which other religious points of view have been put before us. Let us get down to fundamentals. The hon. Gentleman is, in fact, a programme contractor himself, and he receives fees from the B.B.C. for producing these programmes.
    In fact, to use the words of the hon. Member for Ealing, North, the hon. Gentleman is making money out of these religious programmes. I have not heard anybody in this House or outside complain at all of the merits of these programmes, or of the sincerity with which they have been presented, and I should like to ask the hon. Member for Ealing, North why, if the hon. Member for Woolwich, East can present programmes in that way, the hon. Member for Ealing, North should feel that other people in the community would be actuated by baser motives?
    My second point is this. For many years now, the cinema industry, both here and abroad, has produced religious films—films of very deep sincerity—and, again, I have never heard any criticism of the merits or otherwise of those films. I know that there may be different points of view on this issue, but I think that the
    2346
    moral force which is found among people in this country will be sufficiently strong to prevent any exploitation of religion for private profit motives, and for that reason I do not believe that it is necessary to provide a sanction in this Bill in order to prevent it
    Mr. Mayhew: I am sure that both sides of the Committee appreciate the spirit of this discussion. As reference has been made to me, perhaps I may be allowed to say a word or two. I would distinguish between doing a job for payment and putting on a programme with the intention of giving the best possible programme in the circumstances.
    Fundamentally, I am wholly opposed to commercial television, but I think that if those who have the responsibility of making the programmes the best they possibly can have to keep looking over their shoulders lest it might be thought that there is a different motive, I am sure that the integrity and standard of the programmes will decline.
    I hope very much that the Assistant Postmaster-General will accept this Amendment, because I think we can reach an agreement satisfactory to both sides of the Committee. As I understand it, there will be religious broadcasts in a different class from all other forms of broadcasts. That is the issue, and I understand that an assurance has already been given that there will be no advertising in any way at all. I therefore hope that that will mean that the Assistant Postmaster-General will accept the Amendment, because it seems to me that it will be most appropriate not to have these programmes produced by the programme contractors.
    After all, we have to ask ourselves what qualifications the programme contractors will have which the Authority will not have. What are the differences between programme contractors and the Authority which, fundamentally, make them, rather than the Authority, the best people to do that job? The outstanding difference—and I am not complaining about it, is that the motive behind the programme contractors is to make profit. That is to their advantage, from the point of view of hon. Members opposite, and, to some exent, to their disadvantage from our point of view, but no one denies it.
    The second difference is that the profits come from commercial advertising, be-

    2347
    cause the Authority is not expecting to get much revenue. The third difference between the programme companies and the Authority—and this goes all the way through this Bill—is that the Government consider the Authority to have a higher standard of social responsibility than the programme contractors. These are the three essential points on which the programme contractors differ from the Authority. They are less qualified to undertake this work than the Authority itself, and I am, therefore, hoping that on those grounds, the Assistant Postmaster-General will accept this Amendment.
    In any case, perhaps the hon. Gentleman would make quite clear who bears the cost of these programmes, under whatever idea he has in mind. How do they differ, in finance and other ways, from other programmes and will any money be made out of giving these religious programmes? Surely this is a case where the Government can bow to the universal will and let hon. Members vote according to their consciences. If ever there was a case for a free vote it is on an Amendment like this. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment, remembering that a similar Amendment was put down by hon. Members behind him and, if he cannot accept the line we are taking, that we can decide this matter without party considerations.
    Captain Orr: I appreciate the tone of both the speeches that have been made. I share the anxiety of hon. Members that religious broadcasting on television should be of the character which we all want to see, and that no features which a person of deep religious feeling would regard as repugnant should enter into them. I have almost an interest in this matter, in that my father is a clergyman. One must always be careful in those circumstances.
    The fears expressed by hon. Members opposite are, I think, quite unnecessary. What they want is already provided for, in a way, in the Bill. If they will look at the top of page 6 of the Bill they will see that the Authority shall
    "in particular, appoint, or arrange for the assistance of, a religious advisory committee representative of the main streams of religious thought in the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands to advise the programme contractors and the Authority on
    2348
    any religious services or other matter of a religious nature.…"
    Let us look at the position. Suppose there were no Authority at all. Suppose a programme contractor were compiling a programme; he would probably decide that it would be proper to put on religious broadcasts, and that the British public and British viewers would not care to see advertising connected with them. It would be very likely that the religious, broadcasts he put on would be in no way repugnant to the people he expected to be looking at them, and that there would be no advertising connected with them. The contractor would probably carry those broadcasts as a non-commercial item, and almost an obligation upon him, in order to raise the prestige of his programmes. I would not put it beyond a programme contractor that his motive might sincerely be to forward a particular religious belief.
    As we are to have the Authority, there will be an additional safeguard. As a condition of any contract that the Authority may make with a programme contractor who leases the transmitter from it, the Authority may say, "Before we lease the transmitter to you we insist on your putting on a certain proportion of religious broadcasting every week, including a service on Sunday morning," or whenever it may be. "We also insist that there shall be no advertising in those broadcasts and that you shall take the advice of the religious advisory council envisaged in the Bill. We are prepared to pay you the cost of putting, on those broadcasts."
    6.15 p.m.
    Mr. Leslie Hale: This may not be a good opportunity to discuss the principle, owing to the limited time at our disposal on this Amendment, but how can the Authority lay down that condition? It says, "We insist upon your having a haft-hour religious broadcast on Sunday." The programme contractor decides what it will be. He says, "Very well. I shall put on the Hollywood story of the Crucifixion, with Miss Rita Hayworth as the Virgin Mary." If the hon. and gallant Member agrees with that, I have lost the power to argue with him. If the contractor is now to decide the suitability and appropriateness of the programme and not the Authority, why should not the-Amendment be accepted?
    Captain Orr: The answer to the hon. Gentleman is that the Authority can make conditions in the contract and will have ample power to see that the conditions of the contract are carried out. It can insist, if it wishes, that the religious programmes put on by the programme contractor shall be in accordance with the wishes of the religious advisory committee envisaged in the Bill. It will be easy for the Authority to make that a condition of the contract.
    Mr. Hale: Perhaps I can make my views clear in one sentence. We shall get one of two things: either the Authority will say to the programme contractor, "These are our conditions, and you must submit your religious programmes to the religious advisory committee for approval by them," in which case the Authority is doing it and the programme contractor has no rights in the matter; or the Authority will not do it. In the latter case it is clear that the programme contractor can please himself about what to put on. The only condition will be in the allocation of time.
    Captain Orr: I do not think it would be quite like that. In one case, the Authority will lay conditions upon the programme contractor, who will use his equipment and his staff. If the Authority has to do it, it will have to use its equipment and its staff, which will be there simply for religious purposes. If we permit the Authority to have studios, equipment and staff for one particular purpose it will eventually say, "These have been provided partly out of public funds and it would be wrong to keep them idle except for putting on religious services every Sunday. We ought to use them during the week." In other words, the Authority would tend to become another B.B.C.
    We feel that the Authority cannot carry out its full duty of seeing that religious television is presented in a way which the people and the churches of the country will approve without having all the paraphernalia of studios, equipment and staff. The issue between the two sides of the Committee is not on the character or quality of religious broadcasts, but on whether the Authority shall do it or shall insist that the programme contractor shall do it; in other words whether private enterprise shall do it or not.
    Mr. Shackleton: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is in favour of religious broadcasts by private enterprise?
    Captain Orr: Yes. What is wrong with that? I hope that my hon. Friend will resist the Amendment for the reasons that I have given.
    Mr. William Ross: Our Amendment seeks merely to do something which the whole country thought would be done. It was thought that in order to secure a proper balance the Authority would itself be responsible for the provision of certain programmes, and that one of its responsibilities would be the handling of religious services and so on. The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) said that in that respect our fears were unnecessary.
    Captain Orr indicated dissent.
    Mr. Ross: I took the hon. Member's-words down. He said that our fears were unnecessary. If we are religious at all we must have such fears, and in view of the speech in which the hon. and gallant Member tried to justify the Government's action it is very necessary that we should express them. He might be correct in saying that our fears are unjustified but not that they are unnecessary.
    On the earlier Amendments we were told that we should trust the Independent Television Authority. On later Amendments we were told that we should trust the programme contractors. That is what we have again been told by the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South with regard even to religious services. We have been told that we have to trust the programme contractors with matters relating to news. We have to trust them; with the education and the proper entertainment of our children. If the speeches from below the Gangway opposite are representative it seems that there is nothing which the party opposite is not prepared to hand over to the programme contractors.
    I think it is disgraceful. I am sorry that the Home Secretary has left his place. It is very noticeable that the Secretary of State for Scotland has never appeared on the Front Bench during the whole of the debates on the Television Bill. He probably remembers when the first television station in Scotland was opened, and he had the Moderator of the

    2351
    Church of Scotland by his side. They did not think then that even religious services were to be handed over to people whose interest in providing programmes, it has been admitted by the hon. Member for Down, South, is purely monetary.
    If there is one thing with which the programme contractors should not be connected it is surely religious matters. It is all very well to say that they will provide nice services. Their job is not to provide one part of a programme but the programme for a whole day. They will decide where they will put in the religious matter from the point of view of building up a climate which is suitable for the advertising that is coming immediately afterwards. That will be their whole approach, even to religion.
    I wonder if there is nothing sacred to hon. Members opposite? I ask them to forget for a minute their purely mundane interest. I appeal to the Assistant Postmaster-General to say that our fears are justified—they are the fears of millions of people and of the churches in this country—that he respects them and will accept our Amendment.
    Sir R. Grimston: When my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper) raised a point concerning the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) he did so with an inoffensiveness which I hope to equal. Nevertheless, I was interested in the reply of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East because I think it showed how his mind works on this subject. I believe that he produces a series of religious broadcasts for the B.B.C. I understood him to say that were he asked to do the same thing for a programme contractor—paid by the Television Authority from the £750,000 which is being allocated for that purpose—he would feel that he could not do it because—apart from his own particular programme—the programme contractor was tainted by advertising revenue. I think I am putting the point fairly.
    Mr. Mayhew indicated dissent.
    Sir R. Grimston: Then I take it that were he asked he would accept a commission to do a broadcast for a programme contractor?
    Mr. Mayhew: I was not trying to drag myself into this debate at all. I do not
    2352
    want to discuss my personal views, but if I must answer, I say that I should certainly not appear on commercial television, especially for a religious series—no.
    Sir R. Grimston: I do not want to be offensive about this—
    Sir Leslie Plummer: But I think that the hon. Member is.
    Sir R. Grimston: Probably the hon. Gentleman knows a lot about offensive-ness.
    Sir L. Plummer: Well, I am watching it.
    Sir R. Grimston: Perhaps he knows as much about offensiveness as he knows about groundnuts.
    I am talking now about the hon. Member for Woolwich, East. He feels that he could not accept a commission from a programme contractor who derives part of his revenue from advertising. I wonder if he would extend that refusal to the writing of a religious article for a newspaper, which can only sell at a certain price, because of its advertising revenue? It seems an extraordinary attitude. I cannot believe that he would refuse to write a religious article for the "Listener," which is a B.B.C. publication and which can only circulate at its present price because of its enormous advertising revenue.
    Mr. Mitchison: I understood my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) to deny that he said anything whatever about his particular views in this matter. The hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston), has now spent many minutes discussing what appears to be a purely personal question affecting my hon. Friend. May I ask, Mr. Hoy, if the hon. Member should not direct his attention rather more closely to the subject matter of the Amendment?
    The Temporary Chairman: The hon. Member for Westbury must, of course, accept responsibility for what he is saying, but I think that he might come more specifically to the matter now under discussion.
    Sir R. Grimston: The hon. Member for Woolwich, East was good enough to say that he would not accept a commission from a programme contractor. I am

    2353
    trying to show that lie is very inconsistent. II he would accept a commission from a newspaper, the revenue of which is based on advertising, he is applying to commercial companies in broadcasting an ethic he would not apply to the Press. That is inconsistent, and is one of the reasons why I say that this Amendment should be rejected. That is the trend of my argument, and I think that it is perfectly logical. What we on this side of the Committee are arguing here is exactly what we have argued on every Amendment since last night. That is the basic difference between the two sides of the Committee.
    Mr. J. Hudson: Before the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston) leaves this monetary point, which seems to have impressed him very much, I wonder if he would agree that, on the authority of a recently prepared statement by the Rev. Francis House on B.B.C. religious broadcasting, those engaged in broadcasting the services receive no payment at all? Those engaged in the technical job of preparing the means by which the message may be put over are, of course, carrying out paid work. When the hon. Member was speaking I felt that an emphasis was being placed on the matter that was not fair to the tremendous amount of purely voluntary work now done in connection with religious broadcasting.
    6.30 p.m.
    Sir R. Grimston: I am sure there is a great deal of voluntary work going on, but I think it is not denied that there is some religious broadcasting, particularly in the form of plays, to which the hon. Member for Woolwich, East referred, which is paid for. The hon. Gentleman did not himself deny that he was being paid for the programme that he is now doing on television. I do not want to put emphasis one way or the other. We are back again to exactly the same arguments that we have already had. Hon. Members opposite wish the State authority to do the broadcasting, and we say that it is reasonable, proper and right that a programme contractor should be able to.
    Mr. E. Fletcher: With respect to the hon. Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston), this is not the same question that we have been discussing on other Amendments. It is quite a different ques-
    2354
    tion and, indeed, it is a much more fundamental question. It is not a question of whether one person or another person would be prepared, in certain given circumstances, to accept a fee from a programme contractor or from the B.B.C. for talking about religion. I am perfectly prepared to accept that under either publicly-run television or privately-run television there might perhaps be perfectly sincere and objective addresses on religion.
    I do not disguise from myself the fact, for example, that Bishop Sheen was one of the most successful persons appearing on television in the United States. I do not deny the possibilities of perfectly objective talks being given about religion under any system of television. That is not the issue. The issue here is quite different. The reason why I am hoping that the Assistant Postmaster-General will accept this Amendment, which is an entirely non-party one, is this. One of the difficulties which face us in this Committee is that we do not yet know how the Authority is going to run these programme contractors.
    From all that we have heard, there may be different programme contractors for different days of the week.
    Captain Orr: Heaven forbid.
    Mr. Fletcher: The hon. and gallant Gentleman says "Heaven forbid," but I am saying that we do not know. Is there going to be more than one programme contractor for London alone?
    Captain Orr: Not unless there is going to be more than one transmitter.
    Mr. Fletcher: Is that so? I do not know. Can the Assistant Postmaster-General help us? Is there going to be one programme contractor or more than one in London?
    Mr. Gammans: I am not quite sure what this has to do with the Amendment, but as I have been asked the question I will answer it. That is a matter which the Authority must decide.
    Mr. Fletcher: We are completely in the dark.
    I think it is right to say, however—and this is my information from discussions which have taken place with the Post Office—that one method which the Post Office is already considering is to

    2355
    enable various programme contractors, perhaps two or three, to put on programmes for different days of the week.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: It is in the Bill.
    Mr. Fletcher: I agree that it is in the Bill, but I should like the Assistant Postmaster-General to help us if he can.
    Either there is going to be one programme contractor in London, in which case there will be a monopoly, which I gather hon. Members opposite do not want—a monopoly competing with the B.B.C.—
    The Deputy-Chairman (Sir Rhys Hopkin Morris): At the moment I do not follow what this has to do with the Amendment.
    Mr. Fletcher: It will become apparent in a moment, Sir Rhys. Or else, if there is going to be more than one programme contractor, then the various programme contractors will have to divided among themselves the time available.
    How is Sunday to be dealt with as compared with the other days of the week? I am concerned with what I think the whole country is concerned with—to ensure that the programmes that are transmitted over any alternative television service on a Sunday are different from those which are transmitted on the other days of the week. Since television was introduced, the B.B.C. has made a praiseworthy effort, which has been universally appreciated, of differentiating between the tone of Sunday programmes and the tone of programmes on the other days in the week.
    One of the essential features of the B.B.C. sound and television broadcasts is that far more attention is given to religious services on Sundays than on any other day of the week, and I hope that that feature will continue under any system of alternative television. I should like to know, therefore, whether the same programme contractor who is entrusted with the responsibility of providing programmes on the six weekdays or on some of the six weekdays is also to be responsible for providing programmes on a Sunday—
    Mr. Hate: When there is a bigger audience, and higher fees.
    Mr. Fletcher: —or whether there are to be two or three different programme contractors.
    If there is to be a kind of "fair shares for all" arrangement for the applicants to become programme contractors, how is Sunday going to be dealt with? Is Sunday going to be dealt with on the same basis as the other six days of the week? If so, we shall find that the programme contractor responsible for Sunday—when, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale) says, there is a larger audience than on any other day of the week—will be driven to put on more commercial, more competitive and more attractive programmes in order to attract the greater potential advertising revenue there is on a Sunday compared with any other day of the week.
    I am not contesting the general issue. I am advocating the case for preserving the essentially English characteristics of Sunday. I am not speaking as a Sabbatarian. I was one of those who did not support the Motion relating to Sunday games.
    Mr. Hale: My hon. Friend will, no doubt, recall the passion with which hon. Members opposite resisted the opening of Battersea Park on Sunday afternoons for children's games. Now they are in favour of selling cosmetics and soap.
    Mr. Fletcher: I may be a complete simpleton in these matters, but on this occasion I am appealing to what I regard as the finer and better instincts of hon. Members opposite. As my hon. Friend says, they were in the forefront in seeking to prevent Sunday games in Battersea Park.
    What are they going to do about the preservation of our Sunday, particularly as it affects everybody in the home—because far more people are in their homes on Sundays than on any other day of the week. That is the day when the family are all together in the home. Is a programme contractor going to be given the opportunity of competing for the Sunday audience on the same basis that other programme contractors will be able to compete for the audience on weekdays? If so, that will be the end of the distinctive kind of television services that at present the B.B.C. transmits on Sundays.

    2357
    If a programme contractor is given the whole of the available time on a Sunday and has to attract the maximum advertising revenue, how will that contractor be able to provide the kind of religious services to which the listeners and the viewers have been accustomed on Sundays? How will the B.B.C. television service, with its present edifying programme of religious services, be able to compete with a purely commercialised programme on Sunday.
    Whatever else is done about religious broadcasts during the week, it is absolutely essential that the Authority should reserve to itself complete responsibility for all Sunday programmes. Whatever may be the context of Sunday programmes, if we are to preserve the English Sunday that will be the day when there must be a solid and substantial ingredient, as there is now, of religious services. The Authority can do that and still provide the rest of the programme. This is the real test. Even if the Government are committed to commercialising television, and perhaps vulgarising it—they say they will not do that, but let us assume that they do that on the six other days of the week—I urge them to reserve to the Authority the sole responsibility for Sunday programmes.
    It is no answer to say that the British Council of Churches or another religious advisory body is to be consulted about religious services. It will be consulted for an entirely different reason; namely, in order to ensure that there is a balanced presentation of the views of different religions both during the week and on Sunday. That is essential. In a country which has benefited from religious toleration for so many centuries, it would be intolerable if one denomination were given preference over any other.
    Mr. Philip Bell: Is that not stating rather narrowly the task of the religious advisory authority? It is stated that it will advise:
    "…or any religious services or other matter of a religious nature…."
    It is not merely the rationing of religious services; it is more than that.
    Mr. Fletcher: That does not give the body any power to ensure that any religious service at all will be broadcast.
    Mr. Bell: There is the reference to a balanced programme.
    Mr. Fletcher: There is nothing in that to secure the objective which those of us who are supporting the Amendment have in mind.
    In view of the arguments which my hon. Friends and I have advanced, I hope that the Assistant Postmaster-General will give most sympathetic consideration to the Amendment.
    Mr. Pitman: Clause 3 says:
    "It. shall be the duty of the Authority to secure that …the programmes maintain a proper balance in their subject-matter…."
    Does not the hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) feel that the Authority is thereby bound to ensure that on Sundays the subject-matter is of a different character from that on Mondays?
    Mr. Fletcher: That is utterly useless. It does not provide any safeguard at all for the objectives that we have in mind.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: I am glad that the Amendment has been discussed without any party rancour. It is obviously a matter into which party politics does not enter.
    We previously discussed the influence which television might have on education in future. It was generally said in the Committee that the influence might be very great indeed. With all deference, I feel that there is no facet of our British life which is likely to be more effected by television than religion. I believe it is true to say that the outstanding feature of the Coronation Service was the impact which the religious service had upon the homes of this country.
    The authorities who were consulted advised at the beginning that the Coronation Service should not be televised because they did not feel that the people could be trusted to treat it in the reverent spirit to which it was entitled. They were, fortunately, overruled by the general feeling in the House that the service should be televised. The service was televised, and surely the lesson was that our religious leaders are personalities of tremendous impact. For the first time in this country 20 million people knew what the Archbishop of Canterbury looked like, and they respected him and wanted to know more about the whole religious service and the religious background. The power of religion can be

    2359
    brought into every home in the country through the medium of television. Therefore, all of us are anxious to ensure that the television service is in responsible hands and will not in any way be abused.
    6.45 p.m.
    I am opposed to the Authority being responsible for the creation of religious programmes for the same reason for which I was opposed to its being responsible for the creation of the news programmes, the education programmes and the children's programmes; namely, because it ties up a very considerable staff and it is necessary to have a lot of equipment for a relatively small purpose, which is uneconomic.
    Moreover, if the Authority were itself the only creator of religious programmes, it would have to be excessively cautious. Hon. Members will remember that one of the themes running through the Beveridge Report was the slight disadvantage suffered by the B.B.C. in that it had to be desperately careful not to represent minority opinions on religion, and the need for it to fall over backwards in order not to be controversial about religion meant that some of the colour went out of religion and its religious programme. I believe that by leaving the religious programmes to be created and presented by the programme contractors from churches all over the country and fed into the I.T.A. transmitters in that way, we shall get the diversity of treatment and the freshness of outlook which is absolutely essential if we are to keep religion alive in this country.
    I hope that my hon. Friend will resist the Amendment. It is all for the good of religion that we should have the stimulation of fresh outlooks and fresh minds. I believe that the impact of religion in our homes will have a very much greater effect if the Amendment is resisted.
    Sir L. Plummer: One of the arguments adduced for the rejection of the Amendment is that, if the I.T.A. were to be responsible for broadcasting religious services, it would tie up a considerable amount of equipment and occupy the time of a large number of staff. Supposing that were true—and I do not deny it—does it matter?
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: I ought to have added the point that it would create a second B.B.C, which leads to the suppression of minority opinion.
    Sir L. Plummer: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says about the tying up of staff and equipment for the purpose, but I do not accept his argument that the proposal would lead to a second B.B.C. If it did tie up a considerable amount of equipment and occupied the time of a large number of staff, would it not be worth it? Is not the projection of religious tenets worth some sacrifice and effort?
    I can see the point made by the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing). It is different from the point made by his hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Sir R. Grimston), who pursued the course which he has followed throughout the Committee stage of going on the side of making as much money as one can out of this situation. As to the grim dilemma which men have faced throughout the ages as to whether they should choose God or Mammon, nobody is surprised if the hon. Member for West-bury chooses Mammon. The hon. Member for Hendon, North put the point with infinitely more sincerity and much more palatably to the Committee.
    Surely the needs of the day are that religious understanding and appreciation should be available to everybody, and to say that this cannot be given because the equipment and staff are going to be swamped, is to deny the needs of the country. I put it to the Assistant Postmaster-General that this is really, despite what the hon. Member for West-bury has said, not a party issue. There was until yesterday on the Order Paper a most important Amendment put down by the hon. and gallant Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Colonel Gomme-Duncan). I do not know what pressure was put upon him to take it off the Order Paper. I cannot imagine what influences got him to take it off. He was supported by another hon. Member from the Government benches.
    There is in the House, as outside it, a real feeling that the attitude of the Government towards Sunday broadcasting is one that is really objectionable. Sunday will be the big day in commercial television. It is the big day in radio and the big day in television today. That is what

    2361
    the advertiser wants. Luxembourg, Athlone and other sound stations put on their biggest programmes on Sundays. It costs more to buy time on a Sunday than on any other day of the week.
    I am not going to argue that we do not want a continental Sunday in this country. I think that is a cliché which means nothing at all. But I do argue that if the advertiser is to create the climate for the commercials he must be all the more determined to do that at a time when he is having to pay a high rate for the time he is occupying. If he is doing this on a Sunday he will not be ready to put on programme which he regards as not being of the right kind for the commercials and not appealing to the broadest mass of the listeners. No one is going to put on a programme which appeals to the few. The medium will be too expensive. It must be a programme that appeals to the greatest number of people. If the advertiser finds that religion is not appealing to the greatest number of people, he will not use it.
    Therefore, we shall get on Sundays something which I am certain the Home Secretary, at least, does not want to be produced. As I say, this is a non-party issue. I do not believe that hon. Members on the Government benches want to go to their constituents and tell the members of the churches in their constituencies that they have voted in favour of advertisers being allowed to put on religious broadcasts on Sundays. I do not believe that they will want to do that. I do not know why they are giving support for that line. I can understand some hon. Members opposite who have admitted to having an interest in this business arguing like that, but it is a sad state when it is argued by hon. Members, like the hon. Member for Westbury, who have confessed to having no interest in this at all. What saddens the Committee is the spectacle of an hon. Member such as the hon. Member for Westbury supporting so retrograde a Clause as this.
    Sir R. Grimston: I think that I owe an apology to the hon. Member who made some references about me, but I must give it to him that he knows more about being offensive than he did about groundnuts.
    Mr. Philip Bell: When dealing with matters of religion one has to tread very
    2362
    carefully indeed and say nothing to hurt anyone's susceptibilities. I give way to no man in my loyalty to my own particular religion, and I approach this matter from the point of view of whether it helps the preaching of the word of God. That is the test.
    One of the things which interested me about this Television Bill was whether it would provide another avenue for passing on an important message to mankind. This service certainly will provide another angle, and our only dispute is how the message should be put across. On the one hand, I agree with the hon. Gentleman who said that this matter must be delicately handled. He said that the board of the I.T.A., which is to be composed of people not chosen for any religious capabilities, should organise, carry out, and select the principle religious items which are to be broadcast. That is one point of view. I believe it to be founded on the view that this is such an important matter that no risk should be taken. That is the argument which has been used about children, about news and about everything to which people attach great importance.
    I appreciate that argument, but it depends upon believing that this body itself, by going straight and direct, so to speak, at its objective, is better placed than any other agency or means for securing its objective. It endeavours to give it duties such as the B.B.C. carries out. One difficulty which I see is that it is likely to make it stereotyped. That is to say, the whole idea of how a religious item should be presented, may be kept in a very narrow form because of the precedents set by the B.B.C, and there may be unwillingness to make experiments.
    Mr. C. R. Hobson: Would the hon. and learned Member agree that it would be very difficult for the Unitarians, for instance, a rather small but important sect, to get time on the air for their services?
    Mr. Bell: I do not think that it would be very difficult. I am not, however, well-instructed on this. I do not know how much time they get at the moment. I am afraid that they are rather crushed out. I think that under the system proposed they will have a better chance, as I will explain in a moment.

    2363
    For instance, television at the moment does not use the hours between six and seven p.m. for any religious ceremony at all. I should have thought it possible, if people were reasonable and not too jealous of each other, for any religious body to buy time from a programme contractor in order to put out their particular programme. What is the objection to that?
    A particular denomination, such as the hon. Gentleman has referred to, could say, "We have an important preacher here, there is a big congress going on, there is a special message from an annual conference. But it is not thought good enough news for the B.B.C." Some programme contractor, however, who has got this time available, could say to the supporters of that body, "We can give you the time." How does Bishop Fulton Sheen in America get his time? He has had great success. When he first got the time, it was said, "He is dead; his time coincides with that of some famous American comedian." But now he "owns" that hour, and. no one else can go on when Bishop Sheen is on the air.
    Mr. Blackburn: Is not this in conflict with the White Paper, which says that for religion there shall be a central religious advisory committee, with regional committees?
    Mr. Bell: We are not arguing about that. We are talking about what I would prefer to see done.
    The theory I am discussing at the moment is that the whole set-up, and not merely the allocation of available tune, but the whole presentation, the person to present it and the method of presenting it, is to be entirely in the hands of the Authority. That is suggested by those who think that if the programme contractor does it he will do something wrong. I am not quite sure what he will do wrong. I suppose it is thought he will not make the religious broadcasts sensibly or delicately, that he will broadcast in a way that the organisations of religion do not like. Is that really likely?
    7.0 p.m.
    Mr. J. Hudson: There is another possibility. At present the B.B.C. is carrying out a great religious programme in the schools. A million young persons are
    2364
    attending weekly programme services of the B.B.C. There are very great difficulties involved in that because the religious services in the schools must con form to some carefully agreed syllabus that has been worked out between the education authorities and the Churches. Suddenly to let into that religious teaching—
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Gentleman seems to be going rather wide of the Amendment. What the Amendment is concerned with is whether the responsibility should rest with the Authority or the programme contractors.
    Mr. Hudson: I was putting the point that the contractors and advertisers could not possibly know enough about the difficulties involved to enable them to carry out such a delicate piece of work, and that it ought not, therefore, to be left to them.
    Mr. Bell: I am not quite sure that I follow the hon. Gentleman's point. The point I was making was that everybody in England, thank goodness, realises that religion is a very sensitive and a very real thing, so that I find it difficult to conceive that anybody would broadcast on religion otherwise than seriously and delicately, without consultation with that religious body most directly concerned with the broadcast. The hon. Gentleman was talking about advertisers, but it is not they but the programme contractors who will put on the programmes. If a programme contractor, in association with one of the religious bodies, puts on a religious programme, to whom would they be appealing? Suppose a Roman Catholic service or programme were to be broadcast. The broadcast would not be made to edify the Methodists. It would be put on primarily for Roman Catholics.
    Is it really seriously suggested that a programme contractor who decided to put on a Roman Catholic religious ceremony would broadcast it without the advice, without the knowledge, of the Independent Television Authority? It really could not happen. If a programme contractor, who may for the purpose get his funds from a denomination, broadcasts a programme of that denomination, how can he degrade the very material he is, so to speak, selling? It does not seem to me to be a real possibility.
    Mr. Mitchison: I am rather worried about the position of comparatively small denominations. Is it the hon. and learned Gentleman's view that it is right—it seems to be permissive in the Bill—for any denomination to buy as much time as it thinks fit, and as it can afford to pay for, from the programme contractors?
    Mr. Bell: I am not quite sure whether, on this Amendment, I should be in order in answering the question, but if the Committee wants my view about it—
    The Deputy-Chairman: The Amendment is concerned with whether religious programmes should be in the hands of the Authority or the hands of the programme contractors.
    Mr. Mitchison: On a point of order. My point is this. It seems to me that if it is a question of buying time for these services the character of the seller and the interests of the seller are very relevant. If it is a question of how much the programme contractor can get then the programme contractor is in a very different position in that respect from the Authority. It is my submission, therefore, that this point is relevant.
    The Deputy-Chairman: It would certainly be relevant if that were the question, but the point of the Amendment is whether religious broadcasts should be in the hands of the Authority or in the hands of the programme contractors.
    Mr. Mitchison: With great respect, Sir Rhys, does not that necessarily involve this consideration? If these broadcasts are in the hands of the Authority, it is the Authority that will sell the time, whereas if they are in the hands of the programme contractors it will be the programme contractors who will sell the time. I very respectfully submit that my question was relevant, and that although, of course, the hon. and learned Gentleman is not bound to answer it, he would be in order if he did.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I think I have made quite clear what the range of the Amendment is.
    Mr. Bell: The danger of what I would call the financial interest is, I think, resolved. If there were more competitors for time than could be accommodated in the time available, the Independent Television Authority would have to put
    2366
    on a tariff and say there must be maximum charges. Then, within those limits, the programme contractors could furnish what was required. I do not myself see any reason why, because the programme contractors, so to speak, promoted or put forward religious programmes they would be in a better financial position than the Authority. The amount would be only reasonable, anyway.
    I would impress on the Committee that it is not really true that hon. Members are ashamed to go back to face their constituents because they vote for profits for advertisers. I can conceive myself of a religious body saying, "We want to get money for a denominational home for children, and one way of doing it would be to advertise the home, buy time on the air to advertise it, and get money in that way." People advertise not merely to sell goods but for charitable purposes; and an advertiser does not necessarily seek to sell goods but to get good will.
    I hope that I have at any rate as much right to be described as a person who has a proper respect for religion as have hon. Gentlemen opposite; yet I see nothing incompatible with that right in saying that the programme contractors might be allowed to promote religion. The subject would be under the supervision of the I.T.A., with the advice of the advisory committee. I think that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they say there is something incompatible, wrong their fellow countrymen. Do they not feel that they do? I find it difficult to believe that they do not.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I and, I am sure, all my hon. Friends are delighted to see the Home Secretary back on the Treasury Bench. We realise that he is a very busy man and has other duties to perform, but this is a very important Amendment. We are therefore very pleased to see him here. We hope that before we finish this debate we shall be able to persuade him, if we have to go to a Division, not only to permit a free vote on his side, but to persuade his hon. Friends to vote with us.
    I have listened to all the speeches in this debate. My task in speaking in it has been greatly lightened by my hon. Friends. They have left me with nothing to do but to underline some of the more salient and, in my view, overpowering

    2367
    arguments that they have used. Speakers keep on saying, and I hope it is true, that this is a non-party issue, but I am sorry to say that I cannot say that some of the speeches that have been made from the other side have been non-party. It does seem to me that most hon. Members opposite have failed to realise what it is we want to do and what the Bill will do if we do not alter the wording of this Clause.
    What does the Clause do? It sets forth the powers that the Authority is to have. Chief among the powers and duties of the Authority is to hand over to programme contractors, as they are called, practically all of the time, which the Authority will have for broadcasting. The object of the Amendment is quite simple. It is that the one thing the Authority shall not do is to allow any programme contractor to broadcast any item dealing with religion or a religious service. I should have thought that that is such a simple and proper provision to put into the Bill and that there would be little or no argument in any part of the Committee about it.
    Fortunately, in this country we do not mix our religion with our politics. We do not have, as on the Continent, parties which are made up entirely of people of one religious persuasion. Therefore, there can be no harm whatever in the Home Secretary allowing us on a matter of this kind, which touches the conscience of us all, a free vote when we come to decide this issue.
    I was delighted to see on the Order Paper a similar Amendment by hon. Members opposite. If the Assistant Postmaster-General replies, he may be able to tell us why those hon. Members have seen fit to withdraw their Amendment. It was, at any rate, evidence that the feeling on this matter is not all on one side. In fact, it will be seen from the Amendment we have tabled that Members of the Liberal Party have joined with my hon. Friends on this side in support by putting their names to our Amendment. As I have said, it is obvious that some hon. Members opposite have also—at any rate, up to yesterday—put their names to a similar proposal. That is evidence beyond dispute that in every quarter of the Chamber there is a feeling that when we touch religion we should not allow
    2368
    it to be commercialised in any shape or form.
    I was very sorry that some hon. Members opposite took the view they did and used my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) and his very fine broadcasts on religious topics as evidence that we on this side did not always act as we appeared to preach. There is, however, no analogy here. What we object to is not that religious services or religious items are broadcast, or that there are B.B.C. discussions on religious questions. What we object to is that such services or discussions should be bound up with and be part of an advertisement for some commercial undertaking.
    That brings me to my main point. It is said that these broadcasts will be given voluntarily—at least, so I understand, for I do not know to what extent the hon. and learned Member for Bolton East (Mr. Philip Bell) speaks for his right hon. and learned Friend on the Front Bench. I know that I should be out of order if I attempted to argue the matter with him, but my understanding is that religious services will not be bought, although they will be put on by the programme contractor.
    What I and my right hon. and hon. Friends on this side would like to know is, who is to pay the programme contractor for putting on the religious services? It seems to me that if the programme contractor puts on a religious service, he puts it on as an item calculated to attract those people who want to hear that religious service. But the programme contractor has to make his costs somewhere and must pay his way somehow, and he must do it surely, by putting into the programme somewhere an advertisement. If not, what is his motive, and who will pay him for putting that religious broadcast on the air?
    7.15 p.m.
    Mr. Philip Bell: I may be wrong, but surely the members of the organisation who are interested in that particular religion would subscribe. That is how Bishop Fulton Sheen did it. They bought the time for him originally.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I take it, Sir Rhys, that I am not allowed to discuss that matter on this Amendment, but perhaps I may be permitted to say this. If what the

    2369
    hon. and learned Member for Bolton, East says is true, it opens up vistas that make it all the more important that the Amendment should be passed. Without it, surely, certain religious organisations which happen to have more money to spare than others would be able to buy time on the air for their own religious services, whereas other smaller religious organisations would be quite unable to compete. I do not want to go into that issue, because I do not want to touch on religious differences or to assume for the Government that they accept what the hon. and learned Member for Bolton, East said in his speech.
    What we object to is this. It is not that in this instance those who put on the religious service—the programme contractor—are not to be trusted. We are not basing our case on that ground. It may well be that the programme contractor is to be trusted. He would realise that he is dealing with religion and that people take their religion and their spiritual views seriously; and if he had any sense—I take it he would have sense—he would move very cautiously. We do not object on those grounds.
    What we object to is the juxtaposition of an advertisement, however nicely it is put, with a religious service. The mixing of the commercial and the spiritual in this way seems to us quite wrong. Therefore, we beg of the Home Secretary to think again before he allows this to remain in the Bill.
    We are shocked that the views expressed by some Members opposite should be accepted, so we understand, by their leaders on their Front Bench. One hon. Member who spoke a little earlier used, as an illustration of the innocuous kind of thing he imagined the programme contractors would put on, the broadcast of the Coronation Service. There is no analogy there. I listened in to quite a lot of that service. Whilst we were waiting for Her Majesty to return from tine Abbey, some of us went upstairs and saw the service on television. But so far as my memory serves me, I did not hear any advertisement for pills or somebody's cough mixture in the middle of that service; and yet had it been put on by a commercial contractor, who must make his profits somewhere and who must pay for his overheads, in some shape or form both on Sundays and on week-
    2370
    days, whether the programme is an entertainment of an ordinary kind or a religious broadcast, he must naturally work in a commercial advertisement.
    We think it is quite wrong that religion should be used in this way, and I am sure that on reflection the Home Secretary, whom in many directions we on this side admire, will realise that what we are putting forward is reasonable and is certainly not put forward simply for the sake of wasting time. It is in line and marches with the feelings of many thousands of honest and decent people who do not want to see a programme contractor, who is, after all, in the business to make a profit, make one out of this kind of thing. I would therefore ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman for an assurance that he will look at this matter again to see if he can meet us, if not tonight, then between now and the Report stage.
    None of us could say that it would be impossible for a programme contractor, for example, to take one or other of the Bible stories and weave it into an advertisement. And if he did so thousands, nay, millions, of people would be shocked. It would be impossible, except through the Advisory Council which is to be set up and which will have no control whatever over the programme contractor himself, to do anything about it. We do not want to make it possible for some programme contractor who is irresponsible in his outlook to have this power within his grasp. Therefore, as I say, we beg the right hon. and learned Gentleman to think again and to ask his own followers to support us in this Amendment, because we believe it is in accord with the views of the vast majority of the people of this country.
    Mr. Gammans: I always find, as I am sure most hon. Members do, that the House of Commons is at its best when discussing a matter of this sort, and we get that curious division across party lines when something stirs our religious emotions. There is nothing in the world which causes more feeling and more emotion than the discussion of religion. We are lucky in this country that, unlike some of our Continental neighbours, we do not have those deep religious differences that divide us politically, and we manage to discuss these matters in a spirit of toleration.

    2371
    Nevertheless, anything to do with religion is bound to arouse feelings of deep emotion. I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) on the way he opened this debate and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) on the way he wound it up for the Opposition. There is general agreement on both sides of the Committee as to what we want to do. I wish the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) would carry on his meetings somewhere else. I thought he was interested in this matter.
    We are all determined that there should be no commercialism whatever attached to these religious television programmes. Nobody should make any money out of them, and there should be no discrimination. We feel that advertisements ought not to be associated with a religious service. I have met no disagreement on that point. In fact, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Colne Valley said, what he wanted to be assured about was that there was not to be any mixture of commercialism and religion. We are all interested to achieve that, and we do not worry much whether it is achieved by one means rather than another.
    I accept what the right hon. Gentleman said, that the Opposition are not doctrinaire on this point and that what they want to get is an assurance that these undesirable things can be avoided. I do not suppose they are doctrinaire on the words of their Amendment. What I want to be able to show to the right hon. Gentleman—we have thought out these things very carefully—is that the arrangements we have in force will, in my submission, deal adequately with the matter.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: What arrangments would be enforced? What are their form?
    Mr. Gammans: I said the arrangements we have in force, and by that I meant the arrangements in the Bill which, as they stand at present, will, in fact, prevent the evils that all of us want to stop.
    When we first brought out a White Paper on this subject, our feeling was
    2372
    that anything to do with religion might have to be excluded from television altogether. The Committee may remember that stage. In other words, we thought it was best to leave it alone. But the view was put forward—and I think quite rightly—that it would be a pity to keep our television programmes entirely secular. That was the right attitude to adopt, and, therefore, we tried to see if there was a way by which we could allow religious programmes to be televised and at the same time avoid all the disadvantages of commercialism to which we all so strongly object.
    We consulted the British Council of Churches, and I believe the arrangements that we have now placed in the Bill have the general support—I hope they have— of that Council. Let me make one point before I come to what we propose to do. Some hon. Members have been talking about these broadcasts as though they were sound broadcasts. I do not know whether television is, in fact, going to play much of a part in religious broadcasting. It has not up to now. I think it is six weeks, or something of that order, since the B.B.C. last televised a religious service, and as far as I know it is not doing one this week either.
    The reason for this is that we have not yet discovered how this new medium can be adapted to religious broadcasting. I am not saying that it will not do more, but it is not doing much now. Therefore, what we are talking about is nothing of a very extensive nature. One hon. Gentleman spoke about religious broadcasting in schools. He was thinking in terms of what the B.B.C. has done in sound and not in television.
    What are the conditions under which religious broadcasting will be done? The first is that no religious body should be allowed to buy time or advertisements. To allow them to do that would be quite impracticable.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Where is that?
    Mr. Gammans: It is paragraph 6 of the Second Schedule.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: That has to do with rules about advertisements.
    Mr. Gammans: It also says:
    "… by or on behalf of anybody…."
    Mr. Gordon Walker: But the Second Schedule deals only with rules about advertisements.
    Mr. Gammans: But if time is bought for advertising it is bought on behalf of somebody. That is our intention.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: It does not say so.
    Mr. Shackleton: The hon. Member is misleading the Committee. Perhaps he will read his own version as put in the Bill. We have studied it carefully, and it does not say what the hon. Gentleman said at all.
    Mr. Gammans: Our intention is —
    Mr. Ellis Smith: We do not want to hear about the Government's intentions. We have heard that many times.
    Mr. Gammans: That is our intention, and if it is not made clear we will—
    Mr. Shackleton: Accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Gammans: No, that is not the answer. We will not allow any religious body to advertise or buy time.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Both?
    Mr. Gammans: Yes, most emphatically, I say both. That is not what has happened in other countries. In America, in particular, religious bodies can advertise and buy time. I do not want to argue whether that is desirable or not. The Americans would argue that it is desirable and that it has led to very fine sermons. We are not going to have it here, however. There is not going to be any advertising or buying of time by religious bodies.
    The second thing is that we are not having advertising associated with these services. One hon. Gentleman suggested —I imagine it must have been facetious —that a service might be interrupted to advertise soap.
    Mr. William Keenan: There is a point about which I have been very concerned, in spite of the assurance that we have had. I believe it will be possible, unless this Amendment is accepted, for an advertiser or an advertising agency to present a programme to a religious body and
    2374
    simply say that it was presented with the compliments of the South Down Peace Society, the Bolton Trotters, or somebody like that.
    7.30 p.m.
    Mr. Gammans: I do not think the hon. Gentleman need be afraid of that.
    Mr. Keenan: That is what we are afraid of.
    Mr. Gammans: In the first place that would be sponsoring in its crudest form, and in the second place it would mean that advertisements were being permitted on behalf of a religious body. I want to meet the Committee in every way I can. If hon. Gentlemen feel that the Clauses I have referred to in the Bill do not make this matter clear, I shall be happy to meet them—but I cannot meet them on the point that the job should be done by the Authority—and I want also to try to show them that their fears are unnecessary.
    Mr. Mayhew: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that question, he has said that no religious television programme will be associated with an advertisement. I do not think it is in the Bill, but the hon. Gentleman has said so several times. In what way will the religious programmes difier from the ordinary programmes so far as association with advertisements is concerned?
    Mr. Gammans: The ordinary programme can have an advertisement in an actual break within it, or at the beginning or at the end. That is allowed for in this Bill. The Bill would not, however, permit any advertisement in a natural break in a religious service. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or at the beginning or at the end?"] Or at the beginning or at the end.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: This is an interesting point. The contractor is not there because he likes the colour of anybody's eyes; he is there, quite naturally, to make a profit. He will make his profit not out of the programme, but out of the advertisement. If he puts on a religious broadcast and if, as the hon. Gentleman says he is not allowed to put in any advertisement either in a natural break in the middle—which is when there is a moment for silent meditation for prayer —or at the beginning or at the end, why should he want to put on a religious

    2375
    broadcast at all? Where does he make his money?
    Mr. Gammans: He may not want to do it. May I develop my theme? The second point is that there will be no advertisements whatever. There will be no commercialism associated in any way with a religious service. I think that one hon. Member talked about people looking over their shoulders for sales. There will not be any of that in connection with a religious service.
    Now I want to refer to the method which we propose to adopt. It is virtually to use the Religious Advisory Committee of the B.B.C., which has been in existence for some years. Incidentally, the B.B.C. was under no obligation to set up such a committee, but it did so, and, if I may be allowed to pay it a tribute, that committee has done an astounding job of work. Remembering how difficult it is to get agreement between religious sects, I think it has done a superb job of work and, so far as I am aware, it has done it in perfect harmony. It is purely advisory.
    Mr. Hobson: There has been difficulty even with the B.B.C. Religious Advisory Committee. Take the case of the Unitarians who, since its existence, have had only one broadcast. That is the kind of danger about which we are concerned.
    Mr. Gammans: We must either have full liberty or some kind of control, for we cannot have both. Hon. Members who would like frequently to see a religious service by the Unitarians obviously cannot agree with any system which purports to have control.
    We hope that the I.T.A. and the programme contractors will be able to use the services of the Religious Advisory Committee in the same way as the B.B.C. That is the one advisory committee which we have specified in this Bill shall be set up. It may be argued that as this is an advisory committee people can ignore its advice, but that is not a very worthy suggestion. So far as I am aware, the advice of the Religious Advisory Committee has never been disregarded by the B.B.C.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Has the Assistant Postmaster-General satisfied himself that the B.B.C. committee would be prepared to advise the programme contractors, which are just money-making concerns?
    Mr. Gammans: What that committee is interested in is to see that there is a proper balance of religious programmes and I do not think that its members would take the narrow point of view taken by the right hon. Gentleman; anyway, I hope they would not do so. What they are interested in is to see that a certain type of religious programme is put over the air at a particular time and that a proper balance is kept. I was asked a question by the right hon. Gentleman as to how this would work out. It could work out in various ways. The first is that the I.T.A. itself may decide to commission services to be done for it, and would pay for them. It is not necessary for the I.T.A. to have its own outside broadcasting unit. It has exactly the same power and control if it commissions a job to be done as if it does it itself.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: It costs more.
    Mr. Gammans: It certainly would not cost more than having a series of outside broadcasting units doing something perhaps only once in six weeks. That would cost the earth. It would be far better to put the job out to contract. The point is that it has full power under this Bill to do exactly what the right hon. Gentleman wants, but he would make it compulsory; it could also commission these programmes to be done by some outside body; and it has the money to pay for them. One of the reasons we gave for granting the £750,000 was that we foresaw that this might arise. I can hear the Opposition saying, "We would like the Authority to commission such a programme, but where is the money coming from unless there is advertising revenue?" It was to insulate the Authority from any taint of commercialism that this House voted £750,000, and it is from that money that these services can be commissioned.
    I imagine that these services would be of a type recommended by the Religious Advisory Committee, and that its advice would be accepted. But that is not the only way it could be done. The service could be put on by the programme contractor. The right hon. Gentleman took my point that if the programme contractor did it, he would not make any money out of it. I agree.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: He would lose money.
    Mr. Gammans: Yes, he would lose money, and he would also be subject to a further restriction. He could not advertise during the service, he could not advertise at the beginning of the service, he could not advertise at the end of the service. He might take the sordid commercial attitude, "That is a dead loss and I will not do it." On the other hand, he might not. I have no idea what would be the attitude of the programme contractors. They might say, "We would like to do this, we have made money in other directions." Not everybody is commercially sordid.
    Mr. Ross: To salve their consciences.
    Mr. Gammans: That is exactly how it is done in other countries. I ask hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite to study experience elsewhere. It may well happen in that way. I do not say that it will, but if it does not happen in that way the Authority is in a position to do it itself and to pay for it.
    Mr. Hale: This opportunity has been available on Radio Luxembourg for philanthropically-minded men for 10 years, and no one has done it yet. Is not that some indication of a probability?
    Mr. Gammans: It may be, but I do not listen to Radio Luxembourg.
    Mr. Mitchison: The hon. Gentleman said that no advertisement could be inserted at the beginning or the end of religious programmes. There are some rules about advertisements in the Second Schedule and I cannot find that rule among them.
    Mr. Gammans: The rule to which the hon. and learned Member is referring is the rule which also provides that the Postmaster-General roust agree with the Authority on the intervals that are to be observed between advertisements, and that is why it is there.
    I made a fair offer to the Committee and said that these are our intentions. If hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite feel that we have not drawn these provisions tight enough, we are prepared to consider suggestions, though I say that the way to do these things is not the way which hon. and right hon. Members opposite suggest in the Amendment. Their way would lead to endless expense, and for that reason we cannot accept it. They
    2378
    have said that there should be no commercialism. We accept that. They have said that no one is to make money out of religious services. We accept that. And we agree with them that there should be no discrimination between one religious body and another.
    Mr. J. Hudson: Does the term "religious service" cover any religious portrayal? Will the Assistant Postmaster-General keep out the portrayal of the Wedding Feast at Cana for the purpose of exploitation?
    Mr. Gammans: We are not going to keep anything out, but we shall accept anything that the Advisory Committee recommends us to accept, just as that Committee advises the B.B.C. I contend that the various provisions of the Bill and the safeguards which we have offered to the Committee are more than adequate to secure the end which we all have in mind.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Will the hon. Gentleman give us a firm undertaking that what he has said about safeguards will be introduced into the Bill before it leaves the House of Commons for another place? Whilst we accept all that he says and do not question for one moment that the Government intend that these rules should be followed, we have no guarantee whatever that, once the Bill becomes an Act, many of the fears which we on this side of the Committee envisage will not become a reality.
    When I spoke in the debate a short while ago I tried to speak as far as I could in a non-party sense, hoping on behalf of my hon. Friends to obtain some sort of unanimity in this matter, particularly since we realise that some hon. Members opposite went so far as to put a Motion on the Order Paper on this subject. This is a non-party matter which exercises the minds of many hundreds of thousands of people. The hon. Gentleman has told us that we need have no fears. If the Government intend that what he said shall be put into the regulations, why not put those things in the Bill before it leaves this place?
    7.45 p.m.
    Mr. Gammans: I appreciate the spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman has spoken, but we cannot accept the Amendment in its present form. If, however, he feels that there are ways in which the

    2379
    undertakings which I have not given but underlined today could be more clearly expressed on a matter about which we all feel passionately, I suggest that he should put an Amendment on the Order Paper for the Report stage. I claim that the Bill is water-tight in this respect, but if hon. and right hon. Members opposite do not feel that that is the case we will consider with the utmost sympathy any Amendments that they may move on the Report stage.
    Mr. Ede: I know that the Assistant Postmaster-General has endeavoured to meet us, but nobody knows better than the Home Secretary the difficulty of drafting Amendments to meet points of this kind. I would suggest that the Government might go as far as to say that they will consult us between now and the next stage of the Bill to see if we can find a form of words that will give us the assurances that we want and yet will be in a form that the Government can accept.
    I am quite sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will realise that on this matter there is a great deal of anxiety. My right hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Glenvil Hall) spoke about hundreds of thousands of people, but I believe that millions of people in this country are concerned about this aspect of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Hobson) has raised one matter two or three times. In an appendix to the Beveridge Report will be found the evidence that was given by the General Assembly of the Unitarian and Free Christian Churches with regard to the treatment it had received from the Religious Advisory Committee. Although that Committee has been a little more liberal lately, it appears in the main to have concerned itself with the orthodox churches.
    It is one of the heaviest duties laid upon the Home Secretary to safeguard civil and religious liberty. In these days it is no use ignoring the fact that the humanistic approach to these problems by people like Sir Gilbert Murray and others is a form of approach that ought to be available through the medium of broadcasting, but which has not been available. On the assumption that we can have this kind of consultation, so
    2380
    that we may secure words that will be acceptable to all parties, the approach made by the Assistant Postmaster-General in his final speech might well be a way in which agreement could be reached.
    Mr. Tom Brown: I have waited patiently throughout the debate to say a few words on this vital question. We are agreed on both sides of the Committee that the question of religious broadcasts is of paramount importance to the people. That is one reason why we on this side of the Committee desire to be ultra-cautious about who is to be responsible for and in charge of the broadcasts. We are not considering the matter from a denominational point of view. That factor has not come into the debate so far, and I do not think it will do so now.
    We have to remember that
    "Pure religion before God and the Father is this, To visit the Fatherless and widows …, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
    If we follow that Biblical injunction we shall not introduce commercialism on a Sunday into a religious broadcast. In the first words of his reply, the Assistant Postmaster-General uttered some true words when he said that this House is always at its best when discussing vital problems. I agree with him wholeheartedly, but I cannot reconcile myself to the belief that he was sincere in his arguments as to why he is resisting the Amendment we have put forward.
    He has certainly changed a little in direction, because he said it was the intention of the Government. We have had similar expressions before; we have had assurances before; but the Government have failed to carry out their intentions and have failed to fulfil the assurances given. The hon. Gentleman said that he would prefer us to put forward another Amendment on Report stage, but the responsibility to submit an Amendment is upon the Government, not upon this side of the Committee. Be it remembered that this is their Bill, not ours. The responsibility is on them. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not going to ride off on that statement.
    I want to refer to the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) very briefly. We are talking about religious broadcasts and, as I listened to

    2381
    the arguments he was putting forward in the concluding part of his speech, I was led to think about these words, "The insidious poison that has crept into the mind of the hon. Member and is sapping the moral fibre of his existence is the ambition to make money at all costs." The hon. Member got his sheet anchor from the Bill. He said that we shall have a religious advisory committee.
    In Clause 3 (3) it is stated:
    "The Authority may appoint …"
    not, "shall appoint"
    "or arrange for the assistance of, advisory committees to give advice to the Authority and to the programme contractors "—
    Captain Orr rose—
    Mr. Brown: Just a moment, I did not interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman when he was speaking—
    "on such matters as the Authority may specify, and the Authority shall, in particular, appoint, or arrange for the assistance of, a religious advisory committee representative of the main streams of religious thought in the United Kingdom, …"
    There is no definiteness about that. I challenge the hon. and gallant Member to say that that is definite. First, there is the word "may." Then they have to consult an advisory committee, which will give advice, but the programme contractors can refuse to accept the advice. We are led to a strange vacuum when we try to define what the advisory committee is to do.
    This matter is vital. It has caused a great deal of comment in the country. I again appeal to the Assistant Postmaster-General and to the Home Secretary— upon whom a great responsibility rests —to take back this provision. Do not force "us into the Lobby in support of our Amendment against the Bill because this is a very vital matter. It will have great repercussions in the country if the Government refuse to accept the Amendment or to accept our advice.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir David Maxwell Fyfe): I wish to say three things. The first is that it will be a sad day for this country if the occasion should arise when any Opposition ask any Government to consult them on a matter touching religion
    2382
    and that request is refused. Of course I shall be very pleased to consult with the Opposition on this matter before the Report stage. I say that quite irrespective of whether the Opposition decide to divide or not. That offer is a firm one and is open whatever view they take. I want to make that clear first.
    My second point is that I shall give very serious consideration to everything that has been said in this debate because I realise that here we are dealing with r. subject on which we all feel strongly. It is one of the most important aspects, if not the most important aspect, of our national life and whatever qualms right hon. and hon. Members opposite have felt, these are matters which must be considered very carefully.
    I am not in a position to give an undertaking, which the right hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) asked for, to incorporate words in the Bill. A collective undertaking of that kind I cannot give because I must first consider how it would fall out. I want to make that point clear because I do not want hon. Members opposite to think that I am giving an undertaking in order to avoid a Division. I am not doing that and I am afraid I cannot go so far as the right hon. Member suggested. My hon. Friend has tried to state our objectives and we now have the opinion of the Committee; we shall consider very carefully to see whether anything further is required to marry our objectives and the contents of the Bill.
    The third point has nothing to do with the points that I have been making, but I am sure that on this I am speaking for the whole Committee when I say we were delighted to hear—again I think I can break the rules by saying "our hon. Friend," no matter where we sit in the Committee—the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. T. Brown) addressing the Committee in his forthright way.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Can we have a free vote?
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: No, we could not do that.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 188: Noes, 203.

    Division No. 111.]

    AYES

    [7.59 p.m

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Palmer, A M F

    Adams, Richard

    Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W-)

    Panned, Charts

    Albu, A. H.

    Hamilton, W. W

    Pargiter, G A

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Hannan, W.

    Parker, J.

    Allen, Scholefteld (Crewe)

    Hargreaves, A.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Bacon, Miss Alice

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.J

    Plummer, Sir Leslie

    Baird, J.

    Hastings, S.

    Popplewell, E.

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Hayman, F. H.

    Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W)

    Bence, C. R.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon, A. (Rowley Regis)

    Pryde, D. J.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Pursey, Cmdr H.

    Benson, G.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Reeves, J

    Beswick, F.

    Holman, P.

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Houghton, Douglas

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Hudson James (Eating N.)

    Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

    Blackburn, F.

    Hughes Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Ross, William

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Hughes Hector (Aberdeen N.)

    Royle, C.

    Blyton, W. R.

    Hynd, H. (Accrington)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Boardman, H.

    Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Bowles, F. G.

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E

    Brockway, A. F.

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Short, E. W.

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D.

    Jeger, George (Goole)

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena

    Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)

    Brown, Thomas (Inee)

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Carmichael, J.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Champion, A. J.

    Keenan, W.

    Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield)

    Chapman, W. D

    Kerryon, C.

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Clunie, J.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)

    Collick, P. H.

    King, Dr. H. M

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Kinley, J.

    Sparks, J. A.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Lawson, G. M.

    Steele, T.

    Crosland, C. A. R.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Stross, Dr. Barnett

    Crossmart, R. H. S

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E

    Cullen, Mrs. A.

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Daines, P.

    Liplon, Lt.-Col. M.

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    MacColl, J. E.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)

    McGhee, H. G.

    Thornton, E.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Mclnnes, J.

    Tomney, F.

    Delargy, H. J.

    McKay, John (Wallsend)

    Turner-Samuels, M

    Dodds, N. N.

    McLeavy, F.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    Viant, S. P.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E)

    Warbey, W. N

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphitty)

    Mann, Mrs Jean

    Watkins, T. E.

    Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)

    Manuel, A. C.

    Weitzman, D.

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A

    Wells, Percy (Faversham)

    Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Messer, Sir F.

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Follick, M.

    Mikardo, Ian

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Foot, M. M.

    Mitchison, G. R

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.

    Forman, J. C.

    Moody, A. S.

    Willey, F. T.

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Morgan, Dr. H. B W

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Freeman, John (Watford)

    Morley, R.

    Williams, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Don V'll'y)

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T N.

    Moyle, A.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mulley, F. W

    Willis, E. G.

    Glanville, James

    Murray, J. D.

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Gooch, E G.

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C

    Oldfieid, W. H

    Woodbum, Rt. Hon. A

    Grey, C. F.

    Oliver, G. H

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

    Oswald, T.

    Yates, V. F.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Lianelly)

    Padley, W. E

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Paget, R. T.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Grimond, J.

    Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)

    Mr. Holmes and Mr. J. T. Prict.

    Hale, Leslie

    Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Alport, C. J. M.

    Birch, Nigel

    Channon, H.

    Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)

    Bishop, F. P.

    Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston

    Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoal (Tiverton)

    Black, C. W.

    Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Bossom, Sir A. C.

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr J. M

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon J A

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

    Barlow, Sir John

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow W.)

    Cooper-Key, E. M.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Beach Maj. Hicks

    Billiard, D. G.

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F C

    Ben, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Burden, F. F. A-

    Crouch, R. F.

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Butcher, Sir Herbert

    Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)

    Bennett, Wllliam (Woodside)

    Carr, Robert

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    2384

    2385

    Deedes, W. F.

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Remnant, Hon. P.

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Renton, D. L. M

    Donner, Sir P. W

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Ridsdale, J. E-

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Duncan, Capt. J. A L

    Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)

    Duthie, W. S.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Ropner, Col Sir Leonard

    Finlay, Graeme

    Longden, Gilbert

    Russell, R. S.

    Fisher, Nigel

    Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S)

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R F.

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W

    Fort, R.

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Scott, R. Donald

    Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone)

    McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Shepherd, William

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington)

    Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead)

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

    Gammans, L. D.

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. Iain (Enfield, W.)

    Snaddon. W. McN.

    Garner-Evans, E. H.

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Soames, Capt. C

    George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Glover, D.

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)

    Speir, R. M.

    Godber, J. B.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Stanley, Capt, Hon. Richard

    Gomme-Duncan, Col. A

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Stevens, Geoffrey

    Gough, C. F. H.

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Gower, H. R.

    Marples, A. E.

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Storey, S.

    Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Maude, Angus

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Maudling, R.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Harden, J. R. E.

    Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L C

    Studholme, H. G.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Medlicott, Brig. F.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Mellor, Sir John

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Thompson, Ll.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Moore, Sir Thomas

    Thorton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Hay, John

    Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Heath, Edward

    Nabarro, G. D. N

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Neave, Airey

    Turton, R. H.

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Nioolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E)

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Nield, Basil (Chester)

    Vosper, D. F.

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P

    Nugent, G. R. H

    WakefieId, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Orr, Capt. L P S

    Walker-Smith, D. C.

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Orr-Ewing, Chares Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Wall, P. H. B.

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston. super-Mare)

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Osborne, C.

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Page, R. G.

    Wellwood, W.

    Hudson W. R. A. (Hull N.)

    Perkins, Sir Robert

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Peto, Brig. C H. M

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Hurd, R. A.

    Pickthcrn, K W. M

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Hutchison, Sir Ian dark (E'b'rgh, W.)

    Pitman, I. J.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Pitt, Miss E. M

    Wills, G.

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham W)

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Profumo, J. D.

    Johnson, Eric (Blackley)

    Ramsden, J. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Rayner, Brig. R.

    Mr. Redmayne and

    Kaberry, D.

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Mr. Robert Allan.

    Mr. George Darling: I beg to move, in page 4, line 10, at the end, to insert:
    "in particular (and so that such items shall not be provided by programme contractors) items dealing with matters of political or industrial controversy or relating to current public policy, and."
    This Amendment is associated in some measure with an Amendment which we started to discuss last night and was disposed of this afternoon dealing with the question of who should be responsible for news programmes in the new television service, if and when it is set up. During that discussion some confusion arose, and as we have to distinguish between what is a news programme and what can properly be called controversy, I think it desirable that the whole matter be cleared up.
    2386
    As in the previous Amendment, the aim in this Amendment is to establish a service which would compete with the B.B.C. In the Amendment dealing with the setting up of a news service, which we wished to put into the hands of the Authority, we on this side of the Committee said that we wanted competition. I am sorry that hon. Members opposite, who have said a great deal about competition during our discussions on this Bill, voted against the setting up of a competitive service. Although it would be out of order to go back and discuss all the aspects of that matter, there are some which are germane to this discussion.
    There are very good reasons why the Authority and not the programme companies should be responsible for an alternative news service, just as they should be

    2387
    responsible, in our view, for all aspects of industrial and political controversy on current affairs. The controversy of which we speak is to a very large extent comment upon news, the things that are happening at the time, and there has to be some association between the presentation of news and the controversies about current affairs and political and industrial questions which go on the air.
    One of our reasons for wanting the independent news service to be run by the Authority in competition with the B.B.C. was that we should be able to guarantee its objectivity and impartiality. We heard a lot of misguided views from the right hon. Member for Kelvingrove (Mr. Elliot) who, clearly, had not the faintest idea how a news service operates and proceeded to give us a mixture of completely cock-eyed views about comment and news and all the rest. I am rather sorry to see that he has returned to the Chamber. I hope he will not confuse this issue in the way he confused the other one.
    Mr. Elliot: Does the hon. Member wish to be interrupted? I am perfectly willing to interrupt him.
    Mr. Darling: We believe that the best way to guarantee the objectivity of the news service and the objectivity and proper balance of controversy is to have both news and comment in the hands of the Authority.
    There are two germane and very practical factors which were not mentioned in the previous discussion on news. One of them is the question of cost. It is a very expensive business to run a news service, far more expensive in the case of television and sound radio than in the case of newspapers. One of the biggest difficulties of a news service in this field is the re-writing and compression of news, comment and controversy in order to get it into a very short space.
    The whole news of the world which is given out in what is thought to be a 15-minute news bulletin by the B.B.C.—it is actually 13½ minutes—is equivalent to a column and" a half of "The Times." It is necessary to employ a large number of sub-editors than there would be on a newspaper in order to get that compression without leaving anything out and to present the news fairly and honestly. It is an expensive business because staff is ex-
    2388
    pensive. I do not think that any programme company could support the necessary expenditure on staff. For that reason, the news service should be in the hands of the Authority.
    The second factor relates to controversy. The only constructive suggestions which have come from the other side of the Committee were those made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). He said that the Authority could hand the task of the presentation of news to the programme company. I assume he was also referring to programmes dealing with controversy, for he would be consistent in doing so. In regard to news upon which controversy and comment would rest, he said that if it was expensive and there were difficulties, the programme company could hand the business over to an agency to provide it with the news.
    Two things have to be considered in this respect. One is films as distinct from spoken news. I imagine from the arguments of the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the films would be prepared by the staffs of existing news film companies. If it is too expensive for the programme company, that does not provide any competition with the B.B.C. We want something far stronger in competition, something which will stand up to the B.B.C. news service and provide effective and efficient competition in the alternative service.
    8.15 p.m.
    The other suggestion relates to the sound news on television which is presented with pictures and maps, and is that it should be taken from an agency. The hon. and gallant Gentleman mentioned Reuter and the Press Association, That is one agency. Does he suggest that one agency should get a monopoly? Even the B.B.C. does not do that. The B.B.C. takes its news from all the agencies in addition to having its own reporters and correspondents.
    Captain Orr: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that for the purpose of providing competition, the Authority should be empowered to set up an agency comparable with Reuter?
    Mr. Darling: Not at all. This is how the confusion begins. We are suggesting that in news, comment and controversy the Authority should do precisely what

    2389
    the B.B.C. and the newspapers do, and that is to take its news from existing agencies, supplementing it with its own staff if it wishes to do so. At all events, it should take its news from the regular sources of supply—from Associated Press, B.U.P., the Exchange Telegraph and the Central News—and not merely from one agency. In order to shuffle out of the question of costs, which is very important, the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that one agency should have a monopoly of the news.
    Because they have not faced up to the technical questions involved in establishing an alternative service to that of the B.B.C, the Government will all the time find themselves pushed into the monopoly situation. They will be in the same position with regard to the political programmes in the second service dealing with controversy—if any go out.
    I had some years' experience in the job that we are now talking about, and it is from that experience that I speak. I do not have to declare an interest because, of course, I am no longer employed by the B.B.C. I spent seven or eight years in the B.B.C. news division, and, because I was a specialist correspondent, I had to play my part in giving suggestions and information to those who were responsible for putting controversial programmes on sound radio.
    To ensure that balanced programmes go out, that controversy shall be fair and honestly presented and that no one will have any quarrels about the presentation—although there may be quarrels about the views expressed in the controversy—the B.B.C. has to maintain a very expensive staff. It is not an easy job to go round the country finding the right sort of people in order to make sure that all issues will be dealt with and that there will be fair presentation, and it is also an expensive task.
    Also—this is one of the most important points—in order to ensure that there will be fair presentation and to make sure that there will be no pressure upon the B.B.C.—this will apply whatever form the alternative service takes —the staff responsible for putting on the programmes must be protected from pressure by any interests who might wish to interfere with the programme.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: They are not at present.
    Mr. Darling: I must disagree with my hon. Friend about that. The staff are very strongly protected. Hon. Members opposite have paid tribute, just as my hon. Friends have, to the quality and integrity of the B.B.C. in these matters. The main reason why the quality and integrity of the B.B.C. is so noticeable and is so appreciated by everyone is that the staff are protected.
    Right from the beginning of any work in this field—however it may start, from news items or suggestions that may be made by the men and women who provide the ideas and scripts—the men and women on the staff who are responsible for the performance of the programme are protected by the B.B.C. from any outside pressure whatsoever. I myself have had experience of that protection, and, when one is trying to report fairly an unofficial strike of some magnitude, the reporter concerned is subject to a great deal of pressure. Always, in my experience, I have been protected by the B.B.C.
    It is a difficult matter to explain, particularly in the short time available, just how the staff are affected by this protection, but the fact is that they know that they can do an honest and straightforward job and that it does not matter if they offend somebody in doing it; the B.B.C. will protect them and look after them far better than any newspaper correspondent is protected. This perfect freedom which the staff have in this matter is, I am convinced, the reason why the B.B.C. programmes are of the standard which they are.
    I was supposed to be an expert on industrial affairs, and I attended meetings at which the people responsible for the current affairs programme in the B.B.C. were present. I was always impressed by another factor—the freedom which they had to bring forward their own ideas without any influence or pressure being put upon them whatever. This freedom arises from the fact that they all know that they are protected by the B.B.C. from commercial, political, religious or any other influence, and that is the secret of good broadcasting and good television. It is essential that the staff shall be free to bring forward their ideas, to be creative and initiate ideas, without any interference whatever by outside pressure.
    Captain Orr: Would the hon. Gentleman suggest that the staff of a newspaper are not protected from outside pressure?
    Mr. Darling: I quite agree that I made a slightly ambiguous statement in my hurry. The pressure that is naturally put on newspaper men is somewhat different to the pressure put on people in the B.B.C. Everybody reading the "Daily Herald" knows that it is not an independent newspaper, but that it is the paper which will express the Labour point of view. People buying the "Daily Express" know that they will get what may best be called an anarchistic view of things. The "Daily Mail" is a Conservative paper.
    The people reading these papers know what they are going to get, but, in the case of the B.B.C, there should be no proprietor's angle, and, therefore, in order to avoid any bias whatever, the job of the B.B.C. is much more difficult and the freedom which people on the staff receive because of the protection of the B.B.C. against outside influence, is greater in that regard than the protection of a newspaperman, who has the consideration of the proprietor's slant in his mind.
    I feel convinced that the programme companies proposed in this Bill cannot guarantee that impartiality which is so important in order to protect itself from the pressure and influence that will come along, because the people who are likely to influence the programme company are the people who are paying it, and the staff of a programme company, if in charge of a controversial programme, would be under this direct pressure and influence as the staffs of an independent authority like the B.B.C. are not so influenced.
    We may be told that that influence is there, but that we can discount it, because, in any question of a controversial programme, the programme company will see that all views are balanced; that, when a certain amount of time is given to a Conservative speaker, the same amount of time will be given to a Labour speaker. When they bring the two sides together, it is not so important, but, when it is a case of a programme expressing controversial views, we cannot guarantee and trust the programme company that they will properly balance it.
    2392
    There are grave dangers in this arithmetical measuring of balance, and I should like to take an example from the B.B.C. itself—one concerning my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton). My hon. Friend was invited to give a talk on gardening, and he is almost as good a gardener as I am, but the poor B.B.C. had to go and find a Conservative speaker to talk about something in order to restore the balance.
    I can best bring out the danger of that kind of thing by quoting from a recent article in the "New York Herald-Tribune." After the trouble arose when President Truman replied to the business that had been created over the Henry Dexter White case, and Senator McCarthy insisted on the programme company giving him time to reply, this report said:
    "The networks gave Senator McCarthy not only equal time but actually more time than Mr. Truman. The Senator was on the air a full thirty minutes, whereas Mr. Truman used only about twenty. Once he had control of the country's vast broadcasting facilities, the Senator veered far afield."
    Consequently, that placed the programme companies in America in a situation in which all kinds of other people came in and asked for time to talk about this controversy on the air. After summarising all the difficulties that arose, this report says:
    "The broadcasters must abandon the notion that the stop-watch can be substituted for sensible discretion in handling editorial matters."
    We believe that only the Authority is in a position to do this. The report goes on:
    "Without the exercise of editorial judgment, the 'equal time' credo in broadcasting can lead to distortion and false values in news reporting, just as easily as it can be conducive to fairness. The simple act of the broadcasters in deciding to make such powerful facilities available constitutes news in itself and may decisively influence the nation's course. Reporting news is one thing; making it, is quite another."
    That is why we want these matters to be under the control of the Authority. We on this side of the Committee have said again and again that we do not trust the programme companies to carry out the directives that may be laid down, with all the good intentions in the world, in this Bill; not because we think that they will be run by thugs and scoundrels, but because the programme companies cannot escape the pressures that will be put

    2393
    upon them by the people who pay for the programmes. Those pressures will, in our view lead to the kind of bias distortion and difficulty in the presentation of controversy that may well be brought about by quite good motives.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) raised the question of Mitchell and Butler's interfering with the posters that the Road Safety Committee put out. They did so with the best motives. They were asking advertisers to obey the rule of the advertising profession that there shall be no "knocking copy," as it is called. Those good intentions led to suppression. The railway authorities, because of the income that they get from advertisers, were susceptible, and therefore the good intentions led to suppression. That is only a small matter. All kinds of pressures will come from the business interests.
    Suppose the programme companies were only to be in charge of news. That would be a profound mistake, and even at this stage I urge the Government to think again about it, not only on the point of principle but from the technical point of view of whether we can afford to run a news service in competition with the B.B.C. The programme companies will be under those pressures, and without the exercise of editorial judgment all kinds of difficulties will arise. Editorial judgment cannot be exercised by a company or a group of people who are susceptible to business pressure. We believe that that judgment ought to rest, and can only rest, upon the Authority itself.
    8.30 p.m.
    Captain Orr: We have listened to a thoughtful and very interesting speech from the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. G. Darling), who spoke with great experience and great sincerity upon this subject, about which he obviously knows a very great deal. I should like to join battle with him upon the grounds which he has chosen himself, first with regard to the presentation of news and comment on the news.
    I should like to have seen an obligation put upon programme contractors to produce a news service which was accurate, and I should have preferred to see that comments thereafter should be brief. The Government have decided, in their wisdom, that the news service shall be
    2394
    unbiased. Indeed, they have gone very much further than that. If the hon. Member will look at Clause 3 he will see that an obligation is put upon the Authority to see
    "that due impartiality is preserved on the part of the persons providing the programmes as respects matters of political or industrial controversy or relating to current public policy;"
    He will further see, in paragraph (g) that the Authority has to ensure
    "that no matter designed to serve the interests of any political party is included in the programmes."
    Mr. G. Darling: That is precisely the point I was trying to make. With all the good intentions in the world, the programme contractor may find that something has been put out which is biased. Only if the Authority comes in can the matter be put right. If the programme company tries to put it right, it might make matters worse. Therefore it is better to have an Authority that does the job right from the beginning.
    Captain Orr: If the Authority does it from the beginning there will be nobody to step in and put it right.
    Mr. Darling: We can trust it, as we do the B.B.C.
    Captain Orr: Then surely we can trust it to see that the programme contractors carry out their obligations. I do not see the difference.
    Mr. Darling: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman again, but unless the Authority is putting out the programme all that it can do, when the programme contractor is doing the job, is to correct what has gone out. The Authority cannot do anything with the programme until it has gone out because it will not see it beforehand.
    Captain Orr: It is comparatively simple to correct something after it has gone out. I cannot really see any great difficulty in that.
    There is an obligation on the programme contractors, there are penalties provided in the Bill—which we consider to be much too high—and the possibility of losing the contract, which would be a sufficient deterrent in itself to any programme contractor against offending the rule. I am perfectly certain that any programme contractor will be exceedingly

    2395
    careful what he does. I should have said that the Bill was so restrictive as to make the presentation of interesting news almost impossible. I should have liked the emphasis to have been the other way and for very much greater freedom to have been given to the programme contractors to produce really interesting news.
    The hon. Member for Hillsborough said that because of the cost and the very large staff involved, the news service and items of industrial interest and so on should be provided by the Authority.
    Mr. Follick: Would the hon. and gallant Member not agree that news given out as he would wish it might affect the Stock Exchange and cause a panic there?
    Captain Orr: News always has a tendency to affect the Stock Exchange, dependent on what the news is.
    The hon. Member for Hillsborough argued that, because of the cost and the large staff involved, the task should be performed by the Authority. I say that for that very reason the task should not be carried out by the Authority. If it requires a very large organisation, very considerable staff and a considerable amount of equipment to provide a television news service, I should have said that that was an argument against the news being provided by the Authority. I should have thought that the proper way to provide the news was for the Authority to go to someone who has, or who could call upon, the staff. It would be very much better for the staff to be provided by private enterprise than by the Authority.
    The proper way is to put an obligation upon the programme contractor to provide so much news a day, or so many hours of news in a week and then let him get on with it, governed by the Bill's provisions about impartiality and objectivity. It may be argued that that might put an immense burden upon programme contractors. I agree that it probably would put a burden upon them, but I am confident that any programme contractor would say that it was money well spent.
    He would agree that to have a news service added great value to his programme, that one of the things people want to have is a good news service, a good, interesting, sparkling commentary
    2396
    upon matters of the day, up-to-date documentary films of events—not, like some B.B.C. newsreels, of happenings two days out of date. That is greatly in the interest of the contractor, and there is no reason why he should not himself bear part of the cost of producing such a service and providing the staff. That, in the long run, would be less expensive on the public purse than having the Authority take unto itself the staff and the equipment.
    It would be less expensive to the taxpayer to do it through the programme contractor. [Interruption.] Am I taking up too much time?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not wish to be impertinent, but I thought it was right to remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is a Guillotine, and that a number of my hon. Friends wish to speak. No one wishes to curtail the hon. and gallant Gentleman's speech, but I thought I should draw that fact to his attention.
    Captain Orr: I understand the reason for the right hon. Gentleman's intervention.
    I shall conclude by saying that this sort of service should either be given in the way that I have suggested or it should be provided by some special agency. I am not thinking of some of the agencies already in existence. I was thinking that some of the programme contractors might have that obligation put upon them, and that they should get together and form a joint agency for the presentation of news. That is the sort of thing I have in mind for the provision of telefilms of the news, and so on. I think this service should be provided by the programme contractors, and not in any circumstances by the Authority itself.
    Mr. Blackburn: I think that the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) dislikes this Bill as much as we on this side of the Committee do, but whilst we are trying to improve the Bill, according to our lights, the hon. and gallant Gentleman has been spending his time trying to defend the Government. I shall try to be extremely brief in what I have to say because my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. G. Darling) has already made a comprehensive and excellent speech on this matter, and has already answered the

    2397
    arguments of the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South.
    What seems to me to have emerged very clearly from our deliberations is the difference between the two sides of the Committee as to the amount of work which will be put into the hands of the Authority and the amount which will be put into the hands of the programme contractors. We believe that news and matters concerning education, religion and politics should be in the sole control of the Authority. The Government believe that these matters should be put in the hands of the programme contractors.
    I have a feeling that the Government intended, in the first place, that these matters should be in the hands of the Authority but that they have been subjected to so much pressure from the benches behind them that they have now changed their minds, and that the more forcibly we state our point of view the more determined are they to believe that they are correct. We are dealing with politics in this Amendment, and I think everyone will agree that it is dynamite. If there were any suggestion of unfairness there would be a great deal of trouble throughout the country.
    Our agument is not that we believe that the members of the programme contractors or the advertisers are wicked but that undesirable pressures will be brought to bear upon them. The Home Secretary may say that there are in the Bill sufficient safeguards to allay our anxieties. The Assistant Postmaster-General, when he was replying to the previous Amendment, said that instructions would be given that there should be no advertising in religious programmes. But that is not stated in the Bill. He said there would be no advertising at the beginning or the end of those programmes, but I think it would be rather difficult to decide whether an advertisement was inserted at the end of one programme or at the beginning of another one.
    There is also the question of the payment for these programmes. In a previous debate I was concerned about who was going to pay for these programmes, but the Assistant Postmaster-General made it quite clear that the Authority would pay the programme contractors. What would be the position if the programme contractors said, "The amount
    2398
    that you are offering is not enough. We want more"? Has the Authority power to say, "You have got to put the programme on at our price"?
    So many difficulties are likely to arise when authority is divided in this way and so much pressure can be brought to bear by the advertising agencies that it is dangerous for such a position to exist. We believe that only by leaving the matter entirely in the hands of the Authority can we avoid unnecessary controversy. It is essential, in a matter of this kind, that unnecessary controversy be avoided.
    8.45 p.m.
    Squadron Leader Cooper: It is well known that I have personal reservations about the Bill, and the case put forward by the hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. G. Darling) and the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) coincides largely with the views I held when the White Paper was published. But I think their fears are exaggerated because, as I read the Bill, the safeguards in Clause 3 and other Clauses of the Bill are adequate to meet the situation which they envisage. I say sincerely that if I did not believe that I should not hesitate to vote against the Government on this issue. I have a great deal of faith in, and respect for, the integrity of the Home Secretary, and when he assures us that these safeguards exist, that is sufficient for me.
    I wonder whether the fears which have been expressed have underlying them other fears which have not been brought to light. For example, in the political field, is it feared that the Conservative Party can dispose of greater funds than the Labour Party and, therefore, will be able to buy more time? I gather that some hon. Members opposite assent to that.
    My experience is that the funds of the Conservative Party are at present at a very low ebb, and I believe that the Labour Party is in similar low water. There is, however, a difference: we are not able to dispose of substantial political funds from either the Co-operative Society or the trade unions, and it therefore seems to me that if one side of the House is to be seriously embarrassed, through lack of funds in putting these programmes forward, it will be the Conservative Party.
    Mr. Blackburn: If there is the slightest danger of either side acquiring funds and using them in this way, is it not important that the sole control should be in the hands of the Authority?
    Squadron Leader Cooper: If the hon. Member will read Clause 3 again he will find that there are sufficient safeguards. The responsibility for ensuring that there is no partiality in this respect is laid upon the Authority.
    Throughout the years, we in the Conservative Party have said that the B.B.C. is vary Left Wing, and some hon. Members opposite, in all sincerity, have said that the B.B.C. is very Right Wing. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ellis Smith) has said so, and the view has been expressed by many other people.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Some of us remember what took place in 1926, and again in 1931. That is the fundamental difference between hon. Members, even between hon. Members on this side of the Committee.
    Squadron Leader Cooper: I do not think it is necessary to go back into political history, but on both sides of the Committee we can show examples where, in our view, the B.B.C. has acted with bias on one side or the other, and probably all parties have suffered from that at one time or another.
    If that be so, even with an organisation such as the B.B.C, which is a public corporation, with all the safeguards which it is supposed to have—df it can lay itself open to charges such as that—it is going to be very difficult indeed to put into words the safeguards which the hon. Gentleman feels are necessary for the new Authority. Therefore, it seems to me that we have to look at the general powers of the I.T.A. —powers given to it in this Bill—and we have to recognise that the people who are to be appointed to positions of trust in the I.T.A. are to be people of responsibility from all walks of life.
    We must place some faith and trust in them to do this job properly. If we say to them, "We are going to appoint you to this position of high responsibility, but we do not trust you, and we are going to watch you with hawk-like eyes," that is not going to make for the best working of this organisation.
    Mr. Blackburn: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is misrepresenting the case which has been put forward, and I do not think that he would wish to do that.
    Mr. Shackleton: I do not think he understood it.
    Squadron Leader Cooper: I am surprised to hear that observation from the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) because we served together in the Royal Air Force, and I believe that at one time he was miscalled an intelligence officer.
    Mr. Shackleton: The hon. and gallant Gentleman was, I believe, an interpretation officer.
    Squadron Leader Cooper: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. I was never an interpretation officer, I was a navigator in aircraft, and I did manage to get my aircraft where it was supposed to be and to get home as well, which is not always the sort of thing which hon. Members opposite can do.
    I want to say this very sincerely. The I.T.A. is something quite new that we are setting up, and we must try to let it operate with the feeling that we, on both sides of the House, trust its integrity. If we are going to set it up and feel all the time in our hearts that we cannot agree with it or that we distrust everything that it is going to do, it seems to me that this whole experiment will be doomed to failure.
    Mr. Wedgwood Benn: As I listened to the hon. and gallant Member for Ilford, South (Squadron Leader Cooper) speaking about his wartime experiences as a navigator, I could not help thinking how he would have felt if he had received a homing beacon from his home station by courtesy of Bile Beans, "Calling F for Freddie 31, F for Freddie 31, Vector 230—by courtesy of Bile Beans." It really would not work.
    Squadron Leader Cooper: If it got me home I should be always very grateful to have it.
    Mr. Benn:
    "Hark the Herald Angels sing,
    Beecham's Pills are just the thing,"
    which is supposed to have been written in a hymn book given to the church by Sir Thomas Beecham.

    2401
    On the whole, I do not trust advertising for accurate information, but that is irrelevant to this particular debate. We are considering one of the most difficult of all the problems which this new Authority has to face. I declare my interest is such in the matter that for one year I was what is called a producer in the B.B.C. and responsible for passing on what subjects should be covered for overseas broadcasting and for picking the people who should do it. I know from that experience how very difficult both these questions are. It is particularly difficult in this case because we are not really considering a normal medium of communication like a newspaper. Anyone can set up a newspaper. The "Recorder" was a gallant attempt to challenge control by other national dailies. What we have to decide is not a purely competitive system at all, but who shall be able to get to the microphone, or the camera in the case of television. The Independent Television Authority, with, say, its only one programme in London, will, therefore, be responsible directly or indirectly for selecting people to talk about controversial matters. It is really an intensely difficult problem.
    We have only to look at the B.B.C.'s handling of this—I do not claim that it is perfect—to realise how very cautious this country has been. Hon. Members will no doubt recall that, when the B.B.C. was first set up, no controversy of any kind was allowed on the air, no controversy about politics and no controversial religious discussion, because it was felt that this would upset the susceptibilities of people and that one could not be certain of being fair. That, I think, was too cautious. Indeed, in 1928 the Government reversed it, but still it showed with what great trepidation controversy was approached in a monopoly, or near monopoly, broadcasting system.
    Many remnants of that caution are still with us. The B.B.C. could not put on a programme last week or at any time in the last two or three months discussing commercial television because the House of Commons was considering it. The Home Secretary supports this view. Indeed, my own Front Bench, representing the Labour Party on these matters, supports the view that there should not be discussion or comment about a thing two weeks before Parliament discusses it. We
    2402
    know perfectly well that with the Leader of the House announcing the next week's business only on the previous Thursday, no producer would dare put on a programme of anything that might remotely come before the House of Commons for fear that it may be listed in the business of the House for the following week. I think that that is wrong, but it is a view which is held by the Home Secretary in collective Cabinet responsibility and by my right hon. Friends.
    The other aspect is balance. If the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Hollis) gives a literary talk on the Third Programme, my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. G. Darling) has to be interviewed at a local flower show; there must be a balance. A Liberal must never be allowed to talk about beekeeping without a Tory talking about fish. Again, that is in a way ridiculous. It shows the immense care which must be taken in approaching the question, because there is the risk of building up a personality from one party or another and that this would have an adverse political effect.
    The B.B.C. also have a rule, which is difficult for them to maintain, that they will not build personalities. They are frightened of building a personality, and they will never have another "Radio Doctor." I say this with no disrespect to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food. He was a brilliant broadcaster and I used to set my simple rules of health by listening to him every Friday morning. But there is a considerable political impact when a man who has built up his reputation by advising the public on health enters the political arena. It was an enormous advantage to the Conservative Party when, in his first political broadcast, the hon. Gentleman was able to emerge on a new front. Therefore, we ought to approach this matter with much care than the Government have done in their present proposals.
    I have been reading the report of the Federal Communications Commission, a very long report on the subject of editorialisation by commercial companies. The Commission says that it cannot be stopped and that a man cannot be prevented from giving a slant to has news comment if he has private control of it. The Commission also says—

    2403
    this seems very important in view of what the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) said—that one cannot look at fairness afterwards. Fairness and objectivity have to go into the product while it is being made and before it is put out.
    One cannot object afterwards that the news reader put a smear in his voice when he gave the Leader of the Opposition's answer to the Prime Minister; and yet that makes all the difference. News readers are trained to take the colour out of what they say, because of the risk of giving a slant, a smear and a bias. Whatever may be said about the B.B.C. news readers the B.B.C. has the enviable reputation that if people can say, "I heard it on the wireless," they believe it. which they will not say of newspapers or any other medium of communication. That is the real risk we have to face; that in the choice of persons to broadcast and in the choice of subjects to be broadcast, in the treatment and in the accompanying advertising, there are grave dangers of bias entering into it.
    Take, for example, the question of subjects. If a programme contractor happens to do all the advertising for the Imperial Tobacco Company, can one trust its comments on the latest results of the research into cancer and lung smoking? I do not think so. If I heard an advertisement for British Railways saying, "Travel to the sunny South for your holidays by rail" and then, "We are now presenting the news bulletin," I would not think them to be impartial in their statements about the present strike. which includes so many men in my constituency, because they would be interested in it.
    9.0 p.m.
    Programme contractors get their money from the advertisers and, whether they mean to be influenced or not, they are bound to be influenced by the business from which they derive their income. The hon. and gallant Member for Ilford. South spoke about political bias. I do not suspect the Tory Party are going to buy up half the day and put out pictures of the Minister of Housing and Local Government opening the door of the 50,000th house. What I do fear is that Messrs. Tate and Lyle's Mr. Cube is
    2404
    going to develop a campaign which, of course, would have very great political consequences. I say quite frankly that I do not believe the programme contractor would have the courage to take an absolutely independent line.
    We are discussing here something which may never happen. There has never been any television news in this country. I do not know how many hon. Members have been to America and have seen television news worked. It is a very revealing thing. One can go into the back room and see the news coming off the tape. They never bother to check it. There is a sensational story about a fire in Cleveland, Ohio and they interrupt the programme to put it over. There is no checking. Then one sees a man reading the news and making a commentary. The commentary I used to listen to finished up with the news reader taking a huge bite out of a luscious hamburger in order to advertise a series of drive-in cafes in Cincinnati, Ohio. He was quite easy to follow, but that is not the way we get our news broadcast. It is not 'the way to build up a reputation for objectivity and for impartiality.
    In terms of public consequence this is a much more serious matter than religion, which is a private matter for an individual to decide, or even of children's programmes, because it strikes at the whole tradition of British impartiality in broadcasting. I do not think the Home Secretary would deny that the B.B.C, with all its faults, has made a very good job of handling political and industrial controversy, and I think its methods ought to be continued. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hillsborough that we ought to have competition in news, although the competition can come from only one source. But let us not, in our passion for getting competition, throw over the methods which have been so very good. It is only the way that the B.B.C. does it that makes the news objective.
    I think the Home Secretary should meet us on this. We have constant promises from the Government that they will meet us, that this is a non-party Bill, and they say they are anxious to meet all objectors. But. to the best of my knowledge, they have not accepted a single Amendment from this side of the Committee, though they have from the

    2405
    Tory side of the Committee. Amendments have been put in good faith by hon. Members on this side of the Committee, but so far in vain.
    I have come to the conclusion that the Government are determined to press this thing through simply because they have no open mind on the matter. They are determined to open up the field of television to their commercial friends. I do not think that anyone is advocating it dishonestly, but there are strong commercial interests, and the only way to test the sincerity of the Government is by seeing whether they will accept the public interest against the many private interests.
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I shall try to be as brief as I can because I know that hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to discuss at least one other topic tonight. Apart from the peroration of the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), die discussion on this Amendment has been remarkable in that it has not been an attack on the contents of the Bill but on the practical problem inherent in the Amendment. I only mention, to put it on record, that on this point there are the two provisions in Clause 3 (1), paragraphs (d) and (f). Paragraph (d) deals with news, and paragraph (f) specifies that due impartiality is to be preserved on the part of the programme company in respect of
    "matters of political or industrial controversy or relating to current public policy;"
    Then there is the proviso to that subsection which permits, first, party political broadcasts from the point of view of including the whole, but not some only, of a series of the British Broadcasting Corporation, and, secondly, the
    "inclusion in the programmes of properly balanced discussions or debates where the persons taking part express opinions and put forward arguments of a political character."
    We have certainly tried to meet this point.
    Then I come to the argument advanced in a serious and interesting way as to the practical possibility. I recognise the point made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. G. Darling) and repeated by the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), that in this country we are only in the initial stages of television news. I must not delay too long on the news because that aspect is only introductory to this
    2406
    Amendment, and I am only referring to it out of deference to the hon. Member for Hillsborough, who mentioned the point.
    There is a danger with regard to television news which I am sure the hon. Gentleman recognises, and which I have always felt. There is a temptation to give more space in television news to a subpect for which there is a film or something else ready, and to which a background can be given. That is a difficulty which seems apparent to me. It is worth considering.
    I put to hon. Gentlemen for their consideration the question whether we do not want competition in the sense of having someone specialising in trying to get the most interesting news and background programmes in television; in fact, I think that the hon. Gentleman rather desired that as an objective. Therefore I should like to see the programme contractors, when they are deciding how they are going to spend their money, going out for this point and, if necessary, establishing the services that will provide telefilms, or the like.
    Again there is a relevance in the fact that we are considering television. Broadly, in television, as opposed to sound radio, a programme that includes a number of people and discussion and argument has a greater appeal. In fact, I would go further and say that it is almost necessary to have a number of people and discussion in the majority of television programmes. That eases the difficulty which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, because it is simpler to keep a balance in programmes of that kind.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: If a balance is kept.
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: Certainly. And we are getting every day a more highly-developed and more critical public opinion on that point, so that it would become more difficult if one were to overweight the programme one way or another.
    Although I listened with great interest to the catalogue of difficulties which the hon. Member for Hillsborough and the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East have put forward, I cannot help feeling that they exaggerated them in some degree. I have great hopes of the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East. His

    2407
    exordium today was cautious and conservative to a degree. That is very reassuring to us on the Government benches, but I feel that on this occasion he has been a trifle over-cautious and over-conservative and that he has overestimated the difficulties.
    I have dealt with the matter so far from the point of view of the programme contractors. A programme contractor who tried to give a biased or weighted programme would find that he suffered by so doing. The other point concerns the position of the Authority. The Amendment asks that the Authority should do all this. There is the economic aspect, which I am sure the hon. Member for Hillsborough will appreciate, that if we make the Authority do certain things while not covering the whole field, costs and overheads will be greater in proportion. However, I do not want to put the case on that basis, although obviously it would have to be considered.
    The interesting point is whether one gets a better check if one puts the responsibility direct on the Authority or if one puts it on the programme contractor, who then works under the Authority. I should have thought it best that the programme contractor should have the obligations under the subsection which I have indicated, and it is then for the Authority to see that the contractor keeps within the provisions of that subsection.
    It is not so important that one fault should be completely corrected by a succeeding programme, though naturally one would wish to see that done. The tremendously important thing is that we should have a second body which would see that the faults are not repeated. We have tried to erect such a body, and also to give it sufficient teeth. That is why it is important that there is not only the power to terminate but the power to exact a penalty, because we want to make the Authority able to enforce its views. I do not think there will be any doubt in any quarter that we ought to secure that, in conducting controversy, impartiality shall exist.
    9.15 p.m.
    Mr. Shackleton: Is there anything in the Bill to prevent the programme contractors broadcasting their own views?
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I think there is. I could find it for the hon. Member, but I do not want to occupy time now in doing so. I will show it to him later if he is in any doubt.
    I say we have provided sufficient safeguards. There is a double safeguard in the position of the programme contractors, but, if there were any doubt about that, the Authority could step in and see that the matter was put right. Therefore, I ask the Committee to accept this as the healthiest and most potent way of getting lively programmes and seeing that impartiality is retained.
    Mr. G. Darling: It may be that, as a result of the rules and restrictions— which I admit are in the Bill, although I think they will be inoperative—we may prevent programme contractors and advertisers accepting news programmes. In those circumstances, if this Amendment is not accepted, the Bill will prevent us doing what we want to do— setting up a news service in competition with the B.B.C.
    Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I do not agree that it will prevent a news service, and, if I were closer to order, I should like to develop that point a little more. In answer to the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) the provision about which he inquired is in Clause 3 (2).
    Mr. Ness Edwards: We are dealing with an extremely difficult problem. I would be the first to admit that. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman will know, we put this point of view in relation to news, we put it in relation to children, in relation to religion, and now we put it in relation to
    "matters of political or industrial controversy or relating to current public policy."
    We say that these matters ought to be in the hands of the Independent Television Authority. The right hon. and learned Gentleman posed the question of whether it was better to have the check on the Authority or the indirect check on the programme company beneath. I should have thought it would be far more effective to have the check on the Authority in the first instance rather than upon the programme company.
    We object, first, to these controversial matters being in the hands of programme

    2409
    contractors. We say that the programme contractors are people who move in the commercial world. In regard to many things which would be the subject of controversy, either consciously or unconsciously, they have a bias. Their bias would naturally be expressed in the form the comment took or the choice of people who would engage in the controversial programme. I should have thought that obvious.
    The second point is that not only do we object to these items being in the hands of the programme companies, but we object to them being the subject of advertisement association. They are not being used for the purpose of enlightening or entertaining; they are being used for the purpose of inducing people to watch a certain advertisement. What the programme contractor will seek to do is so to frame this item on his programme as to have the maximum effect in selling the goods associated with the programme.
    The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) seems to have a lot of inside information about this matter. He seems to think there will be one programme company which may consist of a number of sub-companies. They will not only get news, but will arrange for the comment on the news. I cannot imagine a programme company arranging a controversy in which there would be debated the virtues of commercial television with speakers opposing commercial television with the same vigour as those who supported it. The company would try to choose the best spokesmen to put the case for their side and the weakest spokesmen to represent the other side.
    They could not be charged with not preserving the balance. They could not be charged with bias because the number of speakers would be equal. It could be argued that the programme was balanced. I should have thought that programme companies were the last kind of people to be allowed to select controversial matters for television programmes.
    Mr. Raymond Gower: If they saw that a programme company was providing first-rate speakers on one side and inferior speakers on the other, would it not be open to the Authority to say that the company was not preserving a true balance?
    Mr. Ness Edwards: I do not think that a programme company would do anything so obvious. They would be much more subtle. But by one means or another they would achieve a thing which the programme contractor wanted. I say this is quite the wrong way to handle these matters, which may be the subject of bias, whether conscious or otherwise.
    The matter might be argued from the point of view of the consequence to our industrial life. How are we to handle industrial relations in this regard? Suppose there is an unofficial strike, how is that to be handled? Are these people, with no knowledge of industrial relations, the proper people to handle such a situation? That could do extreme damage to our home economy. Suppose that we had a political crisis. I imagine that most programme contractors would not view with equanimity successes achieved by hon. Members on this side of the Committee. I do not think I am doing them an injustice when I say that most of them tend to be Tory.
    Hon Members: All of them.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: They do not tend to be, they are.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: We are talking about programme companies brought into existence by hon. Gentlemen opposite, and naturally they will be predominantly Tory. Would it be right to leave the handling of a political crisis to people of that type, who would have a certain bias? I am not trying to score party points. If the converse were true, if we had brought these companies into existence and they were predominantly Labour in outlook, the arguement put by hon. Members opposite would be the same as I am now advancing. I am trying to look at this as objectively as I possibly can.
    Let us take the question of balancing the programme. Is it suggested for a single moment that a programme contractor who has a contract indirectly with a great brewing company would be likely to stage a controversy about the evil consequences of an over-indulgence in alcohol? If he did stage a programme item about it, would there not, quite reasonably, be an unjustifiable bias in one direction? There is the difficulty. I am sure that the Authority, if it had to handle it itself, would find it extremely difficult.

    2411
    It is far too dangerous to put this sort of thing into the hands of independent programme contractors. It would be far better to place a direct responsibility upon the Authority itself, so that the Authority would be answerable to the Postmaster-General and to this House for a proper balance in handling what is, on any account, an extremely difficult situation.
    Those are our points of view about this matter. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will take into account what has been said on this Amendment, over and above what was said on the earlier Amendment. It may be possible for us to have discussions on the matter. However, we feel that this is a matter which can have very serious consequences upon the mind of the nation. As the Guillotine is operating tonight and as we want to proceed with our business, we do not, in the circumstances, propose to divide the Committee.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Gammans: I beg to move, in page 4, line 11, after "items," to insert:
    "arrange for the provision, otherwise than aforesaid, of, or, if need be."
    This is consequential upon Amendments of a similar type which I moved earlier in the debate. I shall not take up the time of the Committee by saying anything more about it.
    Mr. Shackleton: We regard the Amendment as an objectionable betrayal of the Government's original proposals.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Gammans: I beg to move, in page 4, line 13, to leave out "lack, or."
    This is consequential upon what my right hon. and learned Friend said last night. He was asked whether he would accept the Amendment, and he said that he would.
    Mr. Shackleton: The Government did not indicate last night that they would accept the Amendment. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] This is an even greater and more objectionable change.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman considered putting in the interpretation Clause a
    2412
    definition of "temporary"? He said he would consider the point.
    The Chairman: I recollect what was said last night. The Home Secretary clearly said that he would accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    9.30 p.m.
    Mr. Mayhew: I beg to move, in page 4, line 21, after "and," to insert:
    "notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provisions of this subsection—
    (c) the Authority shall themselves provide any item showing or reporting a Royal occasion, and the Authority."
    The object of this Amendment is to reserve to the Authority the right to broadcast on Royal occasions, and the definition of a Royal occasion will be found on the Order Paper in an Amendment to Clause 16. The primary object of the Amendment is to protect the Royal Family and the television screen from any association with commercial advertising, and the surprising thing is that we need to move such an Amendment at all.
    We have had quite recent experience of what commercial broadcasting can do when broadcasting on a Royal occasion, notably in the broadcast of the Coronation in the United States of America, which would be far better described as the "J. Fred Muggs" broadcast. Millions of people in this country were deeply shocked by that broadcast, and I think they will watch with considerable interest the attitude of the Government on this question.
    On this subject, hon. Members may recall that only a few weeks before that celebrated event, the Assistant Postmaster-General said in this House:
    "Let me assure him …that the Government are very much in earnest about sponsored television, and earnestly hope to see it in operation at the earliest possible opportunity."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd April, 1953; Vol. 513, c. 1470.]
    That was three weeks before the Coronation, and, in the broadcast of that ceremony in the United States, an ape appeared on the screen, interrupting the broadcasting of the Coronation ceremony. Since then the Government's attitude has changed for the better—
    Mr. Hobson: My hon. Friend has referred to a "J. Fred Muggs" Could we have some elucidation?
    Mr. Mayhew: J. Fred Muggs is an American advertising chimpanzee who interrupted the Coronation broadcast in the United States.
    I say we should be grateful to this animal. It is not every day that such a great contribution to human culture comes from the animal kingdom as the persuading of a Government that sponsored television is not quite correct; and it is not every Government that can be taught the elements of civilisation by an ape. We must do everything we can to make certain that any conceivable chance of this sort of thing taking place in this country shall be avoided. This will be secured by the Amendment.
    We have been told already that the things which go on in America will not necessarily go on here, and that British advertising is different from American advertising. I am not at all sure that that is so. It is not the actual type of advertising here that matters. Any form of commercial advertising is most inappropriate in televising a Royal occasion, and it is no good hon. Members saying that we do things better over here and that our chimpanzees are better bred and better trained. We want no commercial advertising of any kind in relation to any Royal occasion.
    I cannot see why we need to make a change in this country in the matter of televising Royal occasions. I should have thought that, in the matter of televising Royal occasions, the record of the B.B.C. is extremely good. Who can doubt that the Coronation ceremony and the ceremony of last Saturday, when Her Majesty returned to London, were most admirably done by the B.B.C?
    There were, of course, viewer research reports after the Coronation ceremony. Viewers were asked whether they thought the Coronation Service was done "completely satisfactorily," "satisfactorily" or "not satisfactorily." Out of every 100 people asked, 98 said that it was done "completely satisfactorily." Among the other 2 per cent, are the Assistant Postmaster-General and the Government. They are not satisfied. They were not satisfied with the way in which the B.B.C. handled the Coronation, and they want to change it. They were not satisfied with the performance last Saturday.
    The Bill destroys the system which presented the Coronation and the Queen's
    2414
    return. The Government wish to take away the B.B.C.'s monopoly, which is a vital element in the success of running a Royal occasion. There was no jostling for position in the Abbey with so-called competitive television firms. The B.B.C. had a monopoly and it did the job extremely well. I doubt whether anybody not sitting on the Government Front Bench would not wish our Royal occasions to be broadcast in the same way and up to the same standard as on the occasions I have mentioned.
    Mr. Gower: I am following the argument of the hon. Gentleman with the keenest interest. Would he not agree that the photography and the reproduction of the Coronation in the commercial cinemas of this country was also done with great taste and completely satisfactorily?
    Mr. Mayhew: It was not interrupted by commercial advertisements.
    My point is that whereas 98 per cent. of tie British people were completely satisfied with the B.B.C.'s handling of the Coronation, the Assistant Postmaster-General and the Government were dissatisfied, and have brought forward a Bill which changes the whole system. They are doing it because of their purely doctrinaire belief in private enterprise. For them, the only thing wrong with the Coronation ceremony was that there was no money in it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh‡"] If the Coronation ceremony and the television broadcast of it had been "competitive," to use the Assistant Postmaster-General's expression—if there had been a cut for somebody and if it had been a programme with advertisements, presumably they would have been satisfied. That is a doctrinaire approach.
    What is the Assistant Postmaster-General going to say? I ask him not to tell us what he has told us so often before, that this is a matter for the Independent Television Authority to decide. We are getting a little tired of the shuffling out of his responsibility by the Assistant Postmaster-General. He may say that he does not like the idea of advertisements on Royal occasions, just as he said he did not like the idea of the advertisement and commercialisation of religion. It is no use for him to say that he does not like these things unless he takes the necessary action and puts appropriate words in the Bill.

    2415
    Actions speak louder than words in these matters. We are not going to allow the Assistant Postmaster-General to shuffle out of his responsibility like that. I am sure that he will say that he deplores commercial advertisement and commercial contractors being concerned with Royal occasions. He will then go on and be very careful to leave a loophole whereby precisely that sort of thing can be done. I feel certain of that. This will be the thin end of the wedge.
    None of us on this side of the Committee expects that at the beginning the commercial people will not tread very warily indeed. I am not worried about the first year or the second year so much as about what will happen later. They want to get a foot in the doorway, gain the right to broadcast Royal occasions commercially, then bit by bit the wedge will be pushed in until we have the situation which exists in the United States, where nothing is sacred and where even the Coronation ceremony is interrupted.
    We see even today how the Government will yield to pressure from private interests. When this system is established, and the commercial people have their stations and programmes, have built around themselves all kinds of advertising, manufacturing and trade interests, and their public relations system is working, imagine the pressure they can then put on the Government. If once we allow a loophole in this Bill for commercial interests to broadcast commercially these Royal occasions the pass will have been sold, and we shall eventually have the situation that exists in the United States of America.
    Fortunately, we can hope that before that time a General Election may change the whole prospect of these people who are looking forward to making a great deal of money from commercial television here. If the Assistant Postmaster-General resists this Amendment that, too, could have an effect on the General Election which will be fought. I can think of no better way of illustrating the mercenariness of the Conservative Party than by pointing to their attitude on this matter.
    I shall, myself, have no compunction at all in taking every opportunity of drawing the mural from the Government's attitude on the commercial
    2416
    broadcasting of Royal occasions. If that is done, I am sure that in many parts of the country it will cause considerable embarrassment to the Government. Even though the Assistant Postmaster-General may feel that he cannot accept the Amendment I still want him to tell the Committee what is to be the association of Royal occasions with commercial advertising.
    We have had a debate today on the association of religious broadcasts with commercial advertising. The Assistant Postmaster-General gave a firm assurance that there would be no commercial advertising within, or at the beginning or at the end of any religious broadcast.
    If he cannot accept the Amendment then we want from him at least the same assurance that not only in regard to the Coronation, Trooping the Colour and the Cup Final, but on other occasions when the Royal Family are present, there shall be no advertising either at the beginning, in the middle or at the end. We ought to watch with care the Government's attitude on this point. There have been very few occasions when the prestige of the Monarchy has been higher—or the prestige of the Assistant Postmaster-General lower. On this occasion I hope that he will see his way to accept the Amendment.
    Mr. Gower: In moving this Amendment the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) suggested that should any Royal occasion be reported by any body other than the Independent Authority it was inevitable that there would be something similar to the appearance of Fred Muggs. He was overlooking two ample safeguards in the Bill as it stands.
    First of all, any attempt by anybody to insert such advertising as may have appeared in some other countries, in the reporting of a Royal occasion would be regarded by the British people as an affront and a slight. It would be most unwise for anybody to put such a thing in their programme. That is the first safeguard.
    Mr. M. Turner-Samuels: Then why not prohibit it?
    Mr. Gower: I will come to that. Secondly, there is the safeguard contained in the wording of the Bill itself. I

    2417
    do not wish to repeat the words ad nauseum, but I think that they are particularly apposite to this Amendment. Clause 3 (1, b) says:
    "… that nothing is included in the programmes which offends against good taste or decency or is likely to encourage … or to be offensive to public feeling…"
    I should say that those words entirely meet the point of this Amendment. The only difference is this. The hon. Member for Woolwich, East wants to make the Authority a sort of pale shadow of the existing B.B.C. In other words, he only wants us to have the sort of report which the B.B.C. gives us at present. The more imaginative approach, perhaps the more inspired camera work which may result from some new kind of approach, is to be denied to the people of this country.
    9.45 p.m.
    Mr. Shackleton: Will the hon. Gentleman say how much more imaginative he would have liked the Coronation broadcast to be?
    Mr. Gower: I am not speaking of the Coronation in particular. I should imagine that within its limits the Coronation was a particularly easy event to televise.
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) was dealing with the question of omitting advertisements from these occasions.
    Mr. Gower: I shall deal with that point later. In reply to the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton), I would say that I should imagine that the Coronation was a particularly easy occasion to televise. It is significant that not only was it very well done by the B.B.C, but it was particularly well done by the commercial cinema companies in this country. I am sure that it will be admitted that there was nothing to offend any sensibility or decency in the recording of the Coronation as seen in our cinemas all over the country.
    On balance, we on this side of the Committee also want the Royal occasions to be free from this kind of thing, but we are satisfied, and I hope my hon. Friend the Assistant Postmaster-General is also satisfied, that there is an adequate safeguard in the general public opinion, and if that should be inadequate there is in additional safeguard in the Bill.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: I must say that I cannot agree 100 per cent, with the mover of the Amendment, because I believe that the handling of the Coronation television broadcast by the B.B.C. is open to some criticism. I thought it was rather long and that it should have been cut by about two-thirds. I think that the B.B.C. unduly prolonged the boredom of a large number of people in this country who dutifully turned on their television sets because it was the patriotic thing to do.
    I went to Scotland hoping to escape from the Coronation. I have a television set, and I thought it was my patriotic duty to invite my neighbours who did not have television sets, and so I sacrified myself in the interests of the Coronation. I look back upon the Coronation broadcast with some sense of boredom. I was saved by a small boy who was bored with the Archbishop of Canterbury. The little boy rescued me, and I was able to go out into the fresh air and the sunshine.
    I tried to imagine how it might have been if we had had commercial television. When the Royal carpet came into view there would have been some commentator saying, "This carpet cost £5,000. Buy your carpets on the instalment system," and so on. Then in the interval we might have had somebody saying, "They have all gone for refreshment now. They are only being kept alive until the end of the performance by drinking Nicholson's gin."
    Mr. J. E. S. Simon: I wonder if by any chance the hon. Gentleman has read the Second Schedule to this Bill?
    Mr. Hughes: I am dealing only with the potential horrors of commercial television.
    I hope there will not be another Coronation in my lifetime, but I can conceive that one of these Royal occasions might be so commercialised and vulgarised that it would cause considerable offence, for I do not believe the commercial interests in this country have any respect for Royalty. I have more respect for the privacy of the Royal Family than they have, because I do not want to see the Royal Family exhibited in this way at all.
    Mr. Geoffrey Hirst: I wonder whether the hon. Member has read the Third Schedule.
    Mr. Hughes: I do not know why hon. Members seek to divert me to the Schedules from the realities.
    This Amendment would enable us to prevent commercialism from exploiting Royalty. Indeed, commercialism would exploit anything. I can quite see that future Royal occasions could be commercialised. Supposing we had had a television camera at the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in Edinburgh this year. I have no doubt that, ignoring all the susceptibilities of the Scottish people, commercial television would have used the whole of the Assembly at Holyrood this week to sell White Horse or Haig whisky. That is the sort of thing we are in for with commercial television. There might be a Royal funeral and a firm of undertakers would come along and cash in.
    I do not know whether hon. Members opposite realise that this might lead to the spread of Communism. Supposing there had been a television examination of the inside of the Royal Yacht, showing the Royal carpets and the furniture, and supposing all the apparatus had been duly described over the air for the benefit of the advertisers. The same commercial parasites and exploiters would try to exploit every kind of religious, political or social occasion. Of course, if a good television reporter had got going on the Royal Yacht, costing £2,100,000, that would have spread Communism all over the country. I do not think the Assistant Postmaster-General undertands what he is in for. If he wants to spread Communism, all very well.
    I have no doubt that the television interests know the psychological point at which to break in with their advertisements and slogans, and I can quite imagine that when we were all singing the National Anthem with great pleasure, after the second line someone would say, "You will sing better if you use such-and-such a firm's lozenges." I do not understand why hon. Members opposite do not agree with the Amendment and why they intend to go into the Lobby against it.
    Mr. Gammans: I am sure we are all grateful to the hon. Member for South
    2420
    Ayrshire, who has enlivened the debate with a piece of clever nonsense.
    Mr. Emrys Hughes: Not clever.
    Mr. Gammans: Well, piece of nonsense.
    I should like to welcome back the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew). I know he has been ill, and I know it must have been a terrible thing for him not to have been able to take part in our earlier debates, for he has taken this matter very much to heart. I hope we shall have him with us for the rest of the Committee stage.
    This is the last of a series of Opposition Amendments the object of which is to extend the scope of the Authority at the expense of the programme contractors. This happens to be their philosophy but it does not happen to be ours. They would like these different types of programmes not to be provided by the programme contractors but made the responsibility of the Authority. We have never disguised from the Committee that our view is a different one. We have always held the view that the provision of programmes would be the responsibility of the programme contractors, under certain safeguards. I do not blame them for putting forward this Amendment, but I am sure that they will not expect us to accept it.
    Lieut.-Colonel Marcus Lipton: Why not?
    Mr. Gammans: We all recognise that Royal occasions require special handling. They come in a very special category, and we have to satisfy ourselves that the safeguards against an occasion like that being abused are in fact adequate. As the hon. Member for Woolwich, East said, it is the aim of all of us to protect the Royal Family, and I think that we all support the idea—I hope we do—that such occasions should not be associated with advertisements. That is quite definite. I think that is adequately safeguarded in paragraph 3 (b) of the Second Schedule.
    The Authority and the Postmaster-General have to agree on, or, in default of agreement the Postmaster-General himself has to determine, the periods between advertisements and the classes of advertisements which are to be subject to special rules. As the Postmaster-Genera?

    2421
    is responsible to this House, if he does not exercise these rules according to the wishes of the House, he can, of course, be called to account. I would suggest that the safeguard against mixing up Royal occasions with undesirable advertising is a very full one.
    Mr. Percy Shurmer: Why should there be any advertising at all?
    Mr. Mayhew: If advertising is prevented, will the hon. Gentleman explain how, in that case, programmes are paid for by the programme contractors? He failed to explain that in the case of religious broadcasts. What about Royal occasions—where does the money come from?
    Mr. Gammans: I do not think that I failed to explain that in the case of religious broadcasts. I explained to the House that the Authority had £750,000 annually at its disposal, and it was out of that money that it could pay for religious broadcasts, if it wished to do so, and it could equally well pay for this.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: That, surely, was not the point. I was here during the debate on the religious broadcast Amendment. Although what the hon. Gentleman now says is quite correct, he did not, so far as I can recollect, indicate that a programme contractor would do it for nothing or would get the money from the Authority. The programme contractor would have to face the overheads and have to recoup himself in some way.
    Mr. Gammans: I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. Let me put it clearly, beyond any shadow of doubt. In the case of a religious broadcast, if the Authority decides to commission a religious broadcast, it can pay for it and has the money to pay for it.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Through the programme contractor.
    Mr. Gammans: If it did it through the programme contractor, it would be in order to prevent that very type of broadcast being associated with advertisements. It would prevent what I think was in the right hon. Gentleman's mind when he said, "Would it mean that if a programme contractor did it he would be out of pocket? "I said that he might be out of pocket, but need not be out
    2422
    of pocket because the Authority would have the power and the money to pay for that broadcast itself, and to commission the programme contractor, or, it may be, some other company, to provide that actual broadcast.
    10.0 p.m.
    I shall not convince hon. Members opposite of the reasons why we cannot accept their Amendment, but I hope I can convince them of something that really matters in this connection. That is, that there will be no undesirable advertising connected with Royal occasions.
    Mr. Mayhew: No advertising?
    Mr. Gammans: No advertising connected with Royal occasions.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Say that again.
    Mr. Gammans: No advertising connected with Royal occasions.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: That is not in the Bill.
    Mr. Gammans: Here it
    Mr. Shurmer: No advertising at all?
    Mr. Gammans: The safeguards in paragraph 3 (b) of the Second Schedule are adequate. [Interruption.] I hope I do not have to read the Bill to hon. Members opposite. I imagine that by now they know it inside out.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Where does the paragraph refer to Royal occasions?
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: Paragraph 3 says quite clearly that
    "Advertisements shall not be inserted …"
    but it does not stop there. It then goes on to say,
    "otherwise than at the beginning or the end of the programme or in natural breaks …"
    That is not eliminating advertisements.
    Mr. Gammans: The hon. and learned Member must read a little further and go on to paragraph (b).
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: He has not read it yet.
    Mr. Gammans: Power is here given to the Postmaster-General to lay down rules about advertisements. We stipulate that if there is disagreement between the Postmaster-General and the Autho-

    2423
    rity, the Postmaster-General has to decide; and, because he is the Postmaster-General, he is subject to the authority of the House and can be questioned.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: How do we know that?
    Mr. Ellis Smith: This is something new that is being introduced. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Should it not be in line with normal Parliamentary procedure? If, on his own authority, the Postmaster-General introduces something which is consistent with the Bill, when it becomes an Act, should he not lay it on the Table of the House or submit it to the House in some other way for confirmation or otherwise before it is put into operation?
    Mr. Gammans: The hon. Member can get the information for which he asks in a quite simple way. All he has to do is to put down a Parliamentary Question and he will be informed of the rules which have been agreed between the Postmaster-General and the Authority regarding advertisements on these special occasions.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: That is not quite the undertaking, is it, which was given by the Home Secretary? This question was put to him when we discussed the Money Resolution. Did not the right hon. and learned Gentleman undertake to consider whether the rules should be published to the House?
    Mr. Gammans: I cannot remember that, but I will certainly look it up. If my right hon. and learned Friend said that, of course that undertaking will be honoured. I do not want in any way to evade responsibility in this matter. But I want, if I can, to convince the Committee that so far as advertisements are concerned, the fears of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East about Mr. J. Fred Muggs coming here are quite unfounded. I hope the hon. Member will agree that the subsection would not admit Mr. J. Fred Muggs or any other ape.
    Where I think we disagree—or where I hope we disagree—is not on the question of advertisements. It is on the question as to whether, to preserve the dignity proper to Royal occasions, the job must be done by a public body. That, I gather,
    2424
    is the basis of the Amendment. There is a feeling by Members opposite that no one else can be entrusted with the job. That is a fair point of view; I do not quarrel with it, but I do not agree with it. I do not agree with it, not because I disagree with it in a sort of vacuum but because I know from experience that it is simply not true.
    The idea of hon. Members opposite is that, especially when there is an advertisement content, private enterprise cannot be trusted with any matters of taste, decency or, as one hon. Member said, even honesty. Is that a right or fair thing to say? Does it fit in with our way of life? I imagine that hon. Members go to the cinema when they get the chance —I do—but what happens there? What do we see every day of our lives? The Royal Family on the cinema screen. It is not of course done by advertisements, but it is done by a private enterprise company which makes money out of it. Is it done with bad taste? Has any hon. Member of this House ever seen the Royal Family portrayed on the cinema screen except with good taste?
    The Coronation has been referred to in this debate. [Interruption.] There is no question of advertisements in this matter. I thought I made that perfectly plain to hon. Members, and I thought J had convinced the hon. Member about that aspect of the Amendment. We are now considering the issue of whether a public authority has the good taste to deal with a Royal occasion. There has been talk about the Coronation. I must state quite clearly that I was not among the 2 per cent, but among the 98 per cent, who thought the portrayal of the Coronation on television was a superb performance. It was what we expected. We are not changing that. All we are doing is to have a bit more of it. What one hon. Gentleman was suggesting—I do not think he meant to suggest it—was that the object of this Bill was to destroy the B.B.C. But the B.B.C. will be still with us.
    Mr. Turner-Samuels: There is nothing in this provision prohibiting advertisements of that kind. Is the Assistant Postmaster-General endeavouring to tell the House that he is going to prohibit advertisements? If that is so why does he not put it into the Bill?
    Mr. Gammans: We shall draw the rules to cover a whole variety of occasions of which this happens to be one. There must be some rules and regulations about advertisements—I can think of other occasions as well as Royal occasions—and the paragraph in the Second Schedule is meant to cover all such occasions.
    Lieut-Colonel Lipton: Why not have a separate rule for Royal occasions?
    Mr. Gammans: That paragraph covers such occasions, and covers them adequately. I do not want to repeat this over and over again.
    I have said it already, but there are safeguards which I think fully cover all the reasonable points that are in the hon. Gentleman's mind. First there is paragraph 3 (b) and then there is Clause 3 (1) (b) which says:
    "… nothing is included in the programmes which offends against good taste or decency … or to be offensive to puiblic feeling…"
    Any programme that went out on television which did any of those things that we have heard mentioned tonight would be highly repulsive to good taste and to public feeling in this country, and would get, and fully merit, all the effects of the penal Clauses which we have not yet discussed, but which in the Bill are very extensive.
    We have put safeguards and penal Clauses into the Bill which apply to no other medium. Nothing like them applies to the cinemas, and yet the cinemas turn out films of Royal occasions on the satisfactoriness of which we all agree. That is simply because of the cinema industry's own good taste. The stage is not subject to such safeguards nor is the B.B.C. Why is it that this medium should have something far more drastic imposed on it than any other? I have far more faith in the Authority and in the good sense of the British people than have hon. Members opposite.
    How do I think Royal occasions will be portrayed on the television screen? If arrangements satisfactory to the Authority cannot be made, it can arrange to have these things done direct, and pay for them. That was one of the main reasons why we pressed so strongly for the inclusion in this Bill of the £750,000 which hon. Gentlemen opposite opposed and voted against. We thought it was
    2426
    essential, so that the Authority should have money which it did not get from advertising revenue, and so that Royal occasions could be portrayed as the result of a direct transaction paid for by the Authority, and so that there would be no question of the programme contractors coming into the matter in their ordinary capacity.
    I doubt if this Amendment is necessary, because I am convinced that, just as the cinema companies have shown good taste in this matter, so the programme contractors will show equally good taste. I hope I have convinced hon. Gentlemen, unless they wish to push this Amendment forward as a doctrinaire point— [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh‡"] Oh, yes, unless they wish to open a back door to make the Authority into a programme company. If that is their motive, I cannot agree, but if they have genuine misgivings, I hope that the explanation I have given will satisfy them.
    Mr. Shackleton: The Assistant Postmaster-General said he had great faith in the English people, but he has a greater faith than the English have either in him or in the commercial television people whom he is bringing into being. One of the difficulties in the conduct of this debate is the ignorance of the Government on the issue of the difference between cinemas and television. This is the twentieth time a Government spokesman has asked, since cinemas can do it, why should not the commercial television people? The reason has to be given again and again, namely, that people pay to go to the cinema by buying a ticket of admission whereas the commercial television people will have to depend on advertising for their revenue.
    Again, the Assistant Postmaster-General said that the Opposition opposed the £750,000 annual subsidy to the I.T.A. We opposed it because we said it was not enough. The I.T.A. will have to repeat the miracle of the loaves and fishes on many occasions if they are to make this paltry subsidy cover all the purposes for which the hon. Gentleman says they will require to use it.
    Our contention is a simple one, that the provisions and the safeguards in this Bill are not enough to protect Royal occasions, indeed many other occasions, from the desecration that was imposed by the American commercialisers during

    2427
    the Coronation broadcast. There is one extraordinary thing, that from the Front Bench opposite, not by the hon. Gentleman but by the Minister of State at the Foreign Office, there was a firm suggestion that the complaints about the American handling of the Coronation were unfounded and were part of a smear campaign.
    Mr. Cyril Osborne: Exaggerated.
    Mr. Shackleton: Since the hon. Gentleman wants it, let me quote from the American newspapers on the subject, from reliable commentators working for private enterprise concerns, which will commend itself to the hon. Gentleman. Mr. Jack Gould of the "New York Tines" said that at varying times during the day both networks displayed a callousness in the injection of commercials that denied description. They even referred to Ed. Murrow's programme.
    Mr. Osborne: Would the hon. Gentleman now quote what the British Ambassador reported on this matter?
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. Shackleton: That is precisely what I am about to do. I have not the exact words, but I think I am rendering them fairly. The Minister of State quoted a statement by the British Ambassador saying that the programmes were handled with decency. [HON. MEMBERS: "Dignity."] That is com pletely untrue, and I should like to know whether the Minister of State has made any apology to the B.B.C. or anyone else for the reference to the smear campaign. He knows, and so does the Assistant Postmaster-General, that the Ambassador's report which was quoted in the House of Commons did not represent the facts. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Let me ask—
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: Is it in order, Sir Charles, for an hon. Member to insult Her Majesty's Ambassador in Washington and say that he was not giving the facts correctly?
    The Chairman: I understood that the the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Shackleton) was quoting.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: No.
    Mr. Shackleton: I was very careful to say that it was the Minister of State's quotation of the Ambassador. It was the hon. Member who asked me to quote, and I said that that statement was not in accordance with the facts. If the Government side is so touchy on this matter, I should like to know whether the Minister of State or the Government have apologised to the B.B.C. It is in fact well-known that they have apologised to the B.B.C. for a gross misrepresentation of the facts in the interest of the commercial televisers in this country. We do not trust the commercial televisers in this respect, and we are not satisfied with the performance of the Assistant Postmaster-General or the Government in protecting us and the Royal Family from this type of thing.
    Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing: The history of this case is quite clear. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Washington reported that the Coronation broadcasts were handled with dignity and that they did considerable benefit to the prestige of this country. The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) and many other hon. Members opposite have sought to make capital out of this affair. I believe that the hon. Member for Woolwich, East has toured the country with a chimpanzee on his shoulder. The lengths to which he will go to misrepresent the facts are apparently unlimited.
    We believe that the only programme on which the chimpanzee appeared was a very early morning programme on a small number of American stations in a news commentary illustrated by some still photographs. I regret to say that a certain amount of misrepresentation started by the hon. Member for Woolwich, East —and he is very closely allied with the B.B.C—has unfortunately been taken up by the Press in this country. Only two evenings ago the "Evening Standard" reported that the Coronation—
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Did the hon. Member vote for the Guillotine?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: I always understood in Committee that when the Chairman called one to speak one was entitled to speak. In view of the amount of misrepresentation on the part of hon. Members behind him, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should tell his hon. Friends that they should speak more

    2429
    briefly and a little less heatedly. It is no good the right hon. Gentleman getting so annoyed.
    We feel that commercial interests in this country which produce films like "A Queen is Crowned" did immense credit to the Coronation ceremony in this country and in every civilised part of the world, and we believe that they will handle Royal occasions with the complete dignity that is fitting to such occasions. We recognise that I.T.A. has been provided with funds which will entitle it to make sure that on Royal occasions there are absolutely no advertisements associated with the programme. I am afraid that the right hon. Member may shake his head—
    Mr. Gordon Walker: Will the hon. Member sit down?
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Why should I sit down? We have had some extremely provocative statements from the other side of the Committee, and I do not think it wrong that we should reply to them on this side. For a year we have seen a campaign carried out, and this phase started after the Coronation. The Coronation was an outstanding event in this country. It was handled by the B.B.C. with very great success and very great dignity. We believe that the films of the Coronation made by commercial interests were of equally great credit to this country and to the dignity of the occasion. We believe that if commercial programme companies handle Royal occasions with that same dignity they would increase the renown which this country and the Royal Family have throughout the world.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I think it is a great breach of the ordinary traditions of the House when a Government imposes a Guillotine and Government supporters speak to within 10 minutes of the operation of the Guillotine. If that spirit is to be typical of the spirit in which commercial television is to be run, we are in for a very bad time.
    We have heard the usual story from the Assistant Postmaster-General; we have been hearing it all day. He says, "Of course we agree with the Opposition. We do not want these things comercialised. We do not want the Crown commercialised or in any way mixed up
    2430
    with advertisements, but we are afraid we cannot accept your Amendments. Please trust us." We have had experience of trusting the Government in regard to commercial television, and we have had experience of the way in which the Government give way to pressure in this matter. The first White Paper, which was defended by the Home Secretary with his personal word in this House, contained a clear, specific and categorical pledge that commercial television would have nothing to do with religion or politics. That has now been abandoned. It was a clear pledge and it has been abandoned.
    We want pledges—not in the mouth of the Assistant Postmaster-General, but in the Bill—because we have had experience of these things. The Assistant Postmaster-General spoke about the Second Schedule and the guarantees that would give us, but there is no mention of Royal occasions in the Second Schedule. Nor did the hon. Gentleman give any idea of how he will define a Royal occasion. Does a Royal occasion only mean the Opening of Parliament or a Coronation, or is it the attendance of the Queen at a Cup Final or at Wimbledon? Whichever meaning is given to the phrase will make a great deal of difference. The hon. Gentleman gave no indication at all, and he cannot ask us to accept the spoken word of the Government when we have not been able to accept their written word in the White Paper.
    A lot of people have said that it is not a Royal occasion when the Queen goes to a Cup Final but that only the Opening of Parliament and similar functions are Royal occasions. At a Cup Final there will be a natural break just after the Queen has shaken hands with the teams, and in the natural break there can be an advertisement for beer. Another natural break will occur when the Queen has presented the cup to the winning team, and that break could be accompanied by an advertisement by a firm making deodorants.
    Will the hon. Gentleman provide in his rules that on no occasion when the Queen appears will it be in juxtaposition with an advertisement? Is that what the hon. Gentleman meant when he said that we could trust him? Does he mean—it is ' an important matter—that on no occasion shall the Queen, or a leading member of the Royal Family, appear in juxtaposi-

    2431
    tion, or near juxtaposition, to advertisements? Can he tell us that?
    Mr. Gammans: I shall be delighted to tell the right hon. Gentleman. The rules under which advertisements will be allowed in connection with the appearance of the Royal Family, or other special occasions, will be drawn up and it may be agreed as between the Postmaster-General and the Authority, which does not as yet exist. Those rules can be subject to Parliamentary discussion in this House.
    Hon. Members: How?
    Mr. Gordon Walker: The Assistant Postmaster-General says that the rules do not yet exist. But the Second Schedule exists, and it may be put into that. Would he put into the Second Schedule a simple sentence saying that neither the Queen nor any member of the Royal Family will appear in juxtaposition to any advertisement on television? Will he answer that?
    Mr. Gammans: I will give a promise to consider what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I cannot give a categorical answer.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I do not think the Government can object if, when we go into the country we feel that we must point out that they will not give pledges of this kind at all.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: My hon. Friend said he will consider it.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: He will not give a pledge.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Why should he?
    Mr. Gordon-Walker: The Assistant Postmaster-General has had three White Papers, two Bills and seven or eight Amendments of his own on the Order Paper. Surely he has had time to consider these things. Surely they are not new to him. If they are, it shows how badly the Government have handled the matter. But presumably the hon. Gentleman has considered this for months, together with the Lord Privy Seal, the Home Secretary and others.
    The fact that he will not give a pledge, after considering it for so long, is very suspicious indeed, and we have the right to draw the attention of the public to the fact, because of course they attach
    2432
    immense importance to the Crown not being vulgarised or commercialised in any way—
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: So do we.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: A pledge has not been given to us when one simple sentence would ensure that this will not happen—
    Mr. Gammans: I will give a pledge now that the Crown will not be vulgarised, and I said that earlier this evening. As to the way that will be carried out, it will be decided by the rules which the Postmaster-General will draw up, and which he will present to Parliament.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: I am glad to hear that the Crown will not be vulgarised or commercialised. Would the Assistant Postmaster-General regard it as vulgarising the Crown if, immediately after a picture of the Queen there was an advertisement for beer or deodorants? Would he regard that as commercialising the Crown? He will not answer that. He will not answer the real question.
    It seems impossible to get this simple point into the heads of hon. Gentlemen opposite. They keep talking—as did the hon. Gentleman for Hendon, North (Mr. C. I. Orr-Ewing)—about films. That is a totally false analogy. They used to talk about the Press until we proved that was a false analogy. It would be wrong if we went to the films and saw a marvellous film like "The Queen is Crowned." and if. during the natural breaks—perhaps as agreed by the Postmaster-General—we suddenly saw advertisements. But that is what we shall have on television. Not at the Coronation, I admit, because clearly, nobody would be so insane as to do that. But very likely—because we have not been given a guarantee about it—it might happen on the occasion of an ordinary appearance of the Queen or members of the Royal Family.
    We do not get that in the cinema news- reels. But we might get it in the com mercial television newsreels. We have no guarantee that we shall not have that sort of thing. The Assistant Postmaster- General could remove our fears—
    Mr. Gammans: I shall be happy to give the right hon. Gentleman a guarantee

    2433
    that there will be no advertisements in juxtaposition to any appearance of the Queen.
    Mr. Orr-Ewing: Next point.
    Mr. Gordon Walker: We have had pledges from the Government before. That, I take it, is a pledge to put it in the Second Schedule—
    It being Half-past Ten o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 170. Noes, 192.

    Division No. 112.]

    AYES

    [10.30 p.m

    Acland, Sir Richard

    Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C.

    Oldfield, W. H.

    Adams, Richard

    Grey, C. F.

    Oliver, G. H.

    Albu, A. H.

    Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)

    Oswald, T.

    Allen, Arthur (Bosworth)

    Griffiths, William (Exchange)

    Paget, R. T.

    Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

    Hale, Leslie

    palmer, A. M. F

    Baird, J.

    Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

    Pannell, Charles

    Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J

    Hamilton, W. W

    Pargiter, G. A

    Bence, C. R.

    Hannan, W.

    Parker, J.

    Benn, Hon. Wedgwood

    Hargreaves, A.

    Parkin, B. T.

    Benson, G.

    Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.)

    Popplewell, E.

    Beswick, F.

    Hastings, S.

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale)

    Hayman, F. H.

    Pryde, D. J.

    Bing, G. H. C.

    Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis)

    Pursey, Cmdr. H

    Blackburn, F.

    Herbison, Miss M.

    Reeves, J.

    Blenkinsop, A.

    Hobson, C. R.

    Reid, Thomas (Swindon)

    Biyton, W. R.

    Holman, P.

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Boardrman, H.

    Houghton, Douglas

    Ross, William

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hudson, James (Eating, N.)

    Royle, C.

    Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth

    Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)

    Shackleton, E. A. A.

    Brockway, A. F.

    Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

    Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley

    Brook, Dryden (Halifax)

    Hynd, H. (Acorington)

    Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.

    Broughton, Dr. A. D. D

    Hynd, j. B. (Attercliffe)

    Short, E. W.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper)

    Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill)

    Shurmer, P. L. E.

    Brown, Thomas (Ince)

    Irving, W. J. (Wood Green)

    Silverman, Julius (Erdington)

    Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.)

    Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

    Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)

    Carmichael, J.

    Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.

    Skeffington, A. M.

    Castle, Mrs. B. A

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena

    Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Champion, A. J.

    Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford)

    Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)

    Chapman, W. D.

    Johnson, James (Rugby)

    Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S)

    Cellick, P. H.

    Jones, David (Hartlepool)

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Corbel, Mrs. Freda

    Jones, Frederick Elwyn (West Ham, S.)

    Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank

    Cove, W. G.

    Jones, Jack (Rotherham)

    Sparks, J. A.

    Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

    Keenan, W.

    Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.

    Cropland, C. A. R.

    Kenyon, C.

    Sylvester, G. O.

    Crossman, R. H. S.

    Key, Rt. Hon. C. W

    Taylor, John (West Lothian)

    Culler, Mrs. A.

    King, Dr H. M.

    Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)

    Daines, P.

    Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)

    Thornton, E.

    Darling, George (Hillsborough)

    Lever, Leslie (Ardwick)

    Turner-Samuels, M.

    Davies, Harold (Leek)

    Lindgren, G. S.

    Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn

    Deer, G.

    Lipton, Lt.-Col. M

    Warbey, W. N.

    Delargy, H. J.

    MacColl, J. E.

    Watkins, T. E.

    Dodds, N. N.

    Mclnnes, J.

    Weitzman, D.

    Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C

    McLeavy, F.

    Wells, William (Walsall)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)

    MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)

    White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddenfield, E.)

    White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)

    Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

    Mann, Mrs. Jean

    Whiteley, Rt. Hon, W.

    Evans, Edward (Lowesloft)

    Manuel, A. C.

    Willey, F. T.

    Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)

    Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A

    Williams, Ronald (Wigan)

    Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.)

    Mayhew, C. P.

    Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S)

    Follick, M.

    Messer, Sir F.

    Willis, E. G.

    Foot, M. M.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

    Forman, J. C.

    Mitchison, G. R

    Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)

    Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)

    Moody, A. S.

    Wyatt, W. L.

    Freeman, John (Walford)

    Morley, R.

    Yates, V. F.

    Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. E T. N.

    Moyle, A.

    Gibson, C. W.

    Mulley, F. W.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Glanville, James

    Murray, J. D.

    Mr Holmes and Mr. George Rogers.

    Gooch, E. G

    Neal, Harold (Bolsover)

    NOES

    Aitken, W. T.

    Beach, Maj. Hieks

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt Hon J. A

    Aiport, C. J. M.

    Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)

    Boyle, Sir Edward

    Atnery, Julian (Prei, N.)

    Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.)

    Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W)

    Amory, Rt. Hon. H xnt (Tivwton)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Brooke, Henry (Hampstead)

    Arbuthnot, John

    Bennett, William (Woodside)

    Billiard, D. G.

    Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. M.

    Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)

    Burden, F. F. A

    Baldwin, A. E.

    Birch, Nigel

    Carr, Robert

    Barber, Anthony

    Bishop, F. P.

    Cary, Sir Robert

    Barlow, Sir John

    Black, C. W.

    Channon, H.

    Baxter, A. B.

    Bossom, Sir A C

    Clarke, Col Ralph (East Grinstead)

    Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Ramsden, J. E.

    Conant, Maj. R. J. E.

    Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)

    Rayner, Brig. R

    Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert

    Johnson, Eric (Blaokley)

    Redmayne, M.

    Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)

    Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)

    Rees-Davies, W. R

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C

    Jones, A. (Hall Green)

    Remnant, Hon. P

    Crouch, R. F.

    Kaberry, D.

    Renton, D. L. M

    Crowder, Sir John (Finohley)

    Kerby, Capt. H. B.

    Ridsdale, J. E.

    Crowder, Petre (Ruistip—Northwood)

    Lambert, Hon. G.

    Roberts, Peter (Heeley)

    Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)

    Leather, E. H. C.

    Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S)

    Deedes, W. F.

    Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.

    Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)

    Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA

    Legh, Hon. peter (Petersfield)

    Roper, Sir Harold

    Donner, Sir P. W.

    Linstead, Sir H. N.

    Roper, Col. Sir Leonard

    Doughty, C. J. A.

    Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E)

    Russell, R. S.

    Duthie, W. S.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C.

    Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.

    Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)

    Longden, Gilbert

    Schofield, Lt.-Col. W.

    Erroll, F. J

    Lucas, P. B. (Brentford)

    Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.

    Finlay, Graeme

    Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

    Shepherd, William

    Fisher, Nigel

    McAdden, S. J.

    Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W)

    Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F.

    Macdonald, Sir Peter

    Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)

    Fort, R.

    Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry

    Snadden, W. McN.

    Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale)

    McKibbin, A. J.

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell

    Mackie, J. H. (Galloway)

    Speir, R. M.

    Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok)

    Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.)

    Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S)

    Galbraith, T. G. O. (Hillhead)

    Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)

    Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard

    Gammans, L. D.

    Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries)

    Stevens, G. P.

    Garner-Evans, E. H

    Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horneattle)

    Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)

    Glover, D.

    Maitland, Patrick (Lanark)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

    Godber, J. B.

    Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E.

    Storey, S.

    Gough, C. F. H

    Markham, Major Sir Frank

    Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)

    Gower, H. R.

    Marlowe, A. A. H.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)

    Graham, Sir Fergus

    Marples, A. E.

    Sutcliffe, Sir Harold

    Grimond, J.

    Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin)

    Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)

    Grimslon, Sir Robert (Westbury)

    Maude, Angus

    Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W>

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Mellor, Sir John

    Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.

    Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.)

    Molson, A. H. E.

    Touche, Sir Gordon

    Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye)

    Moore, Sir Thomas

    Turner, H. F. L.

    Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield)

    Mott-Radolyffe, C. E.

    Tweedsmuir, Lady

    Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.)

    Nabarro, G. D. M.

    Vane, W. M. F.

    Hay, John

    Neave, Airey

    Vaughan-Morgan, J. K

    Heath, Edward

    Nicholls, Harmar

    Vosper, D. F-

    Higgs, J. M. C.

    Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)

    Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W)

    Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Walker-Smith, D. C

    Hirst, Geoffrey

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)

    Wall, P. H. B.

    Holland-Martin, C. J.

    Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare)

    Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)

    Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.

    Osborne, C.

    Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)

    Horobin, I. M.

    Page, R. G.

    Wellwood, W.

    Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence

    Perkins, Sir Robert

    Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)

    Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire)

    Peto, Brig. C. H. M.

    Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)

    Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives)

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.)

    Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.)

    Pilkington, Capt. R. A.

    Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)

    Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.)

    Pitman, I. J.

    Wills, G.

    Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J.

    Pitt, Miss E. M.

    Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

    Hurd, A. R.

    Price, Henry (Lewisham, W)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W)

    Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. L.

    Mr. Studholme and

    Hylton-Foster, H. B. H.

    Profumo, J. D.

    Mr. Robert Allan.

    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    The CHAIRMAN then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by a Member of the Government of which notice had been given, to Clause 2, and the further Question necessary to complete the proceedings on that Clause.
    Amendments made: In page 4, line 34, after "not," insert:
    "carry on business as sellers of, or."
    In line 36, at end, insert:
    (5) Notwithstanding anything in this section, the Authority shall not have power to provide broadcasting services other than television services nor (except as provided by this section) to acquire any exclusive or other rights in respect of the broadcasting of any matters in sound only:
    Provided that nothing in this subsection shall be construed as precluding the inclusion in any programme broadcast by the Authority of matter transmitted in sound only —
    2436

    (a) by way of relays of any of the British Broadcasting Corporation's party political broadcasts which is so transmitted;

    (b) in compliance with directions given to the Authority under section six of this Act; or

    (c) by way of news items, announcements or other items incidental or ancillary to the television services provided by the Authority,
    or the acquisition by the Authority of rights in respect of any matter to be so transmitted. —[Mr. Gammons.]

    Then The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

TEACHERS' SALARIES, SCOTLAND
10.40 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Teachers' Salaries (Scotland) Regulations, 1954 (S.I., 1954, No. 403), dated 26th March, 1954, a copy of which was laid 'before this House on 31st March, be annulled.
One of the "Alice through the Looking Glass" peculiarities of our Parliamentary procedure is that to get some discussion of these Regulations I have to pray that they be annulled, although I welcome most parts of them. Though I have some comments to make upon them, for the greater part I am very glad to see them. I think it is only right to say that now, so that hon. Members who may wish to leave for one reason or another may do so with a comparatively clear conscience.
I have, however, some points of criticism which I want to put, and I should like to give the Government the opportunity to explain some parts of these Regulations, which, I think hon. Members will agree, are not entirely easy to understand. I should like to address my remarks largely to those parts which deal with the grants to remote schools. There are, of course, many other very important points dealt with in the Regulations. There is the general matter of the level of teachers' salaries that we might discuss, and certainly it is essential that we do pay teachers salaries adequate to maintain a high standard of recruitment to the profession.
There is the question of the extra payments, which I think is very desirable, to teachers with technical qualifications. There are many hon. Members who, on a more suitable occasion, would like to discuss these matters at length. I know that the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson), who has kindly consented to second this Motion, will have a word or two to say on some of these matters, on which, I may say, he is an expert.
I do not suppose that anyone would deny that though a teacher's life on a small island may be happy, it is also hard. It is certainly hard in comparison with the luxuries of the town. If I may
2438
mention one or two examples of the difficulties which they have to work under, a teacher in an outlying island in my constituency is cut off from all such things as concerts, plays and even libraries, and he or she and their families find life extremely expensive.
If they are in the North Isles of Orkney or Shetland and they want to go to Kirkwall or Lerwick to see their friends or do some shopping, it costs them a lot of money. They may have to pay anything up to 32s. in fares, and they may also have to put up at a hotel and incur the expense of taxis, and so on. Then there is the high cost of ordinary household essentials like coal, which in some parts of my constituency, costs perhaps £10 a ton by the time it reaches their house.
Yet these men and women are the absolute linch-pins of their communities throughout the islands around the coast of Scotland. Why was North Fara abandoned? It was partly because there was no pier, but also because there was no teacher. The same thing will happen very soon in South Fara, where the only family with young children are leaving because they cannot get education. All round the coast of Scotland we have seen the populations in the islands decrease. The school populations in Fetler and Stronsay have gone down by 40 to 50 per cent, over the last 40 years.
This would not be an appropriate occasion to discuss what general changes in education are needed. If we are to hold people in the countryside we need some changes, but I am absolutely certain that what we must keep are teachers of the present very high standard. I am sure the Under-Secretary will agree that the standard is very high. We are well served by the teachers in these remote areas. They deserve our thanks. It is not sufficiently realised how much they do in addition to the ordinary job of teaching. They take the services on Sundays, act almost as hotelkeepers for visitors, and advise and lead their community. They even have to act as chairmen to visiting politicians. On top of all that, they have to work in their gardens and cut their peats. Their life is not easy.
In so far as these Regulations will give them more money the teachers will welcome them. I hope the Under-

2439
Secretary will say a few words about the general situation, but there are one or two specific points I wish to make, which, though they have arisen largely in discussions with my constituents are possibly of interest to other rural areas.
As I read the Regulations, the cost of the extra grants will fall largely, if not entirely, on the local authority. If they exercise the discretion in Part II, Regulation 9 (2) they will bear the whole of the extra cost. I am told that if the proposals put forward by the Shetland County Council are agreed they will cost the county over £11,000. That is a considerable sum for a poor county to find. Bearing in mind the rateable value of the Highland counties I should have thought that the Education Fund might have borne some of that cost.
I am interested to know what kind of case will be covered by Regulation 5 of Part II. As I have indicated, the teacher in a rural school is very much a one-man band. He has to teach all sorts of subjects and children of different ages, carrying on to their further education, train boys for apprenticeships, and so on. Will the education authorities, under Regulation 5 (1), be able to attract and hold highly-qualified men by offering them something more than their basic salaries? Paragraph 6 (2) might also have some bearing on that. Turning to the definitions, I see that Regulation 9 (4) defines a centre of population as
"a place where the normal number of teachers employed whole-time ill primary schools and primary departments is three or more;"
I am not quite sure why it refers to the primary department, but that is a minor point, but I do suggest that the whole definition really strains language rather far.
For instance, in my own constituency the area round the central school at Sanday, Orkney, is to be defined as a centre of population, as are similar areas in Whalsay and Yell. If the Undersecretary were to visit such areas—preferably on a rather dark night in winter —he would be hard put to find the centre, or much population. There are a few scattered houses, no hotel, no cinema, no library—none of the ordinary things one thinks of as constituting a centre of population.
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A "remote school" is defined as a school which has either one or two teachers and which is difficult of access from a centre of population. I will not bother the House with the exact specifications of the transport difficulties as laid down in the Regulations, but one is that it shall be
"8 miles or thereby on water which is recognised as sheltered water or partly as sheltered and partly as exposed water,"
Who is to determine whether the water is sheltered or not? Is it the Secretary of State, or the Admiralty, or how is it done? My only experience in the constituency is that all the water is unsheltered, distressingly unsheltered.
I hope that, for the sake of the school teachers the matter is left to the Minister of State, Scottish Office, who is notoriously a rather unreliable sailor. I think he will find that all these schools are rather remote and unsheltered. In all seriousness, I think that this definition of a remote school will raise difficulties. All of Orkney and Shetland is remote. There are several schools in my constituency which have three teachers or more which are, beyond all question, not only remote, but very remote.
There are one or two, also, which have fewer than three teachers which may fail, on the question of transport, to get the maximum prant possible. No one would doubt that Papa Stour, off the extreme west coast of Shetland, is very remote. It is true that there is a bus from Lerwick, 20 miles away, the last few miles over atrocious surfaces which shock the liver; and it might be held that the two or three miles' crossing of the Atlantic is sheltered, if any part of the Atlantic is sheltered. I think it will count as a remote school, but under this definition there might be some doubt about it. Further, there is the point that classification of these schools will depend fortuitously on whether side schools have been closed, with amalgamation of children. Whether they have three teachers, or fewer, may depend on a decision to close these side schools.
No doubt the Under-Secretary will draw attention to what might be called the escape clause, in Regulation 9 (2). I would like him to deal particularly with the Clause, because without generous use of it the Regulations will be nonsensical. The Scottish Office has already had

2441
representations from Orkney and Shetland to upgrade, so to speak, certain schools, if these recommendations are not accepted certain schools on the mainland may be as well off as those in quite remote islands. Can the Minister give us an assurance about this? I welcome the provision that all schools in Orkney and Shetland are remote. Difficulties will arise, however, when we get into degrees of remoteness. I think it is clear to common sense that all schools on the outer islands are more remote than those on the mainlands, with perhaps one or two exceptions.
Then there are those more remote still in such places as North Ronaldshay, Foula, Fair Isle, Skerries, and Fetlar. If the Secretary of State does use his discretion widely on these lines, will he allow extra payment for these schools? Will he also look again at who will bear the additional cost? Why not the Education Fund? I understand that the basic extra payment is £40. In Regulation 9 (1, b) there is mentioned a payment of £70. Is that cumulative? Will the teacher in the more remote school get £110, and is there further discretion to pay more if the Secretary of State is satisfied that it is necessary?
There are many other points I would like to discuss, but I want to confine myself largely to the question of remote area payments. The allowances are a great help, though when one comes to the cost of living today, they are not very much. One holiday from one of the Orkney or Shetland Islands for a teacher and his family will swallow all this extra allowance. It will not leave much consolation for the mere remoteness itself. I am sure that many hon. Members will hope that the Scottish Office will continue to do battle with the Treasury to get greater inducements, both by way of salary and by way of extra allowances, for teachers.
We have a most devoted band of men in the islands. But it is not easy to get new teachers. In Orkney even now they are wondering whether or not they can pay the full £110 to get a teacher in North Walls. It is important that they should be able to do so. At present, both Foula and Papa Stour have highly qualified teachers who, if they liked to leave the islands, could add considerably to their income, because they have quali-
2442
fications which are not fully employed in those schools. They stay because they want to stay and because they feel an obligation to stay; and they should not be penalised for it. It would be disastrous if more schools had to be closed. It would be a great pity if we had to accept lower standards.
If we want a high standard among teachers, we have to pay for it. If we want them to do the great variety of work which they have to do, then we must relieve them of some of their financial anxieties and of the unhappy feeling that they may be penalising their families by calling on their own public spirit.
10.56 p.m.
Mr. Malcolm MacPherson: I beg to second the Motion.
I should like to follow the methods of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). This is not an occasion for a general discussion of the broader principles embodied in these Regulations, but it is useful on such an occasion to take up one or two specific points. The hon. Member has taken a point which is of considerable importance in the life of Scotland, and, although I will not follow him in any detail, I want to reinforce the general plea which he made.
These remote school payments were based in the past, and I understand still are based, on the necessity to make additional payments in order to attract teachers to these places. The grants made in the past have by no means been wholly successful in attracting sufficient teachers where they are wanted, but it is essential that we should maintain in those places teachers of the same high quality as those who are there now. It is also important to remember that the life of Scotland and of other areas has been enriched by the high quality of the pupils who have come from many of these remote schools.
The question remains, will the grants proposed in the Regulations be sufficient, either by themselves or in association with other things, to keep the remote schools properly staffed? It would be a tragedy if we were to allow even more of a drift from the glens and the islands, but that problem will not be solved by teachers' salaries or these Regulations

2443
alone. Whatever is done about teachers must be backed by a broader and wider policy to maintain the population in useful and prosperous activities in those areas.
An additional point which I should like to raise concerns Part III of the Regulations—the question of teachers employed in further education. This is one of the more difficult matters which the Regulations touch on—I was going to say "cover", but, in fact, they do not cover these matters. The principles on which these teachers are paid has not yet been properly worked out. We do not know what are the basic ideas on which their salaries are settled. The present Regulations simply extend the position set by the 1951 Regulations, with an appropriate flat increase. That is temporarily safeguarding the position of these teachers.
It is a matter of importance and, I think, of some urgency that there should be a proper basis worked out on which salary scales for these teachers might be assessed. A working party was set up, which, the Secretary of State tells us, is now actually meeting, to go into a number of questions involved—and they are difficult and complex questions. I hope the Joint Under-Secretary will be able to tell us how the working party will help us to solve this problem. There are complex questions like the nature of the qualifications. "We cannot, in dealing with these teachers say that a qualified teacher has been through a training college and a person who has not is an unqualified teacher. That kind of thing does not suit this particular kind of work.
What are the qualifications? How are they to be assessed and worked out, and how are salaries to be based on them? There is the question, also, of their methods of negotiation, their place within the teachers' organisations, because, again, they are rather irregular and anomalous taken alongside the main body of Scottish teachers. There are, in fact, a considerable number of rather complex issues which are new to the whole business of the settling of teachers' salaries, possibly involving different methods, and certainly one or two different basic ideas.
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I should like to ask the Joint Undersecretary to elucidate one or two of the complexities and let us know what happens when the working party completes its work. Does it report to the Secretary of State? Does it report to the National Joint Committee? Does the Secretary of State proceed to give the National Joint Committee new terms of reference based on this report, and, if so, what happens? How is the actual achievement of the working party to befitted in with the methods and structure used in determining salaries?
The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. G. M. Thomson) has been stressing to the Secretary of State in recent weeks one or two points which I should like also to underline in connection with this working party. There is the question of the personnel, though that is over and settled by now. The question of urgency has been exercising the mind of my hon. Friend, and, I think, quite rightly. It is a matter of some urgency. The Educational Institute for Scotland have suggested that the scales for these teachers ought to be worked out on a new set of principles and in operation by 1st September this year, the beginning of the new school year.
I wonder whether the Joint Undersecretary can say whether that prospect is likely to be realised at the rate of progress so far. It would seem perhaps rather optimistic. The importance of the matter, however, is considerable, because in Scotland although the day release in which these teachers are mainly engaged has been slow to grow, it has in recent years been showing some acceleration of pace, and the future is bound, if we are to supply ourselves with the craftsmen we need, to bring about not merely an increase, but, I should think, a considerable increase in this kind of work.
The evidence from all sections indicates that one of our great national needs is for skilled craftsmen and good citizens. That is why a number of hon. Members are really concerned about the necessity for working out a scheme which will properly bring teachers engaged in this particular kind of work within the orthodox framework of the teaching profession so far as salaries and other matters are concerned.
11.5 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Henderson Stewart): I am very glad indeed that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs (Mr. Malcolm MacPherson) have drawn attention to this important problem. I should like to deal, first, with the speech of the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk Burghs because it was slightly off the beaten track. If I can deal first with the matters mentioned in that speech I can then concentrate on matters common to both hon. Members.
The hon. Member was concerned mainly with further education. I am very glad to tell him all that I can on that subject. He referred, first, to the salaries of teachers in further education and secondly to the representation that these teachers have on the negotiating body. The Association of Teachers in Further Education have complained to us, as the hon. Member very well knows, that teachers of further education are not represented on the National Joint Council, which is the supreme negotiating body in Scotland. The Secretary of State thinks that there is some force in that complaint and he is now having discussions with the National Joint Council on how best representation can be given on the Council to these teachers.
The negotiations are going on and I am sure that the hon. Member will not expect me to explain publicly what is happening. They are confidential, but I hope that in due course we shall arrive at some agreed system which will be satisfactory to both sides. He may be sure that the Secretary of State and all of us at the Scottish Office are fully aware of the importance of this matter and have great sympathy with the case which he has put forward.
The National Joint Council was asked some considerable time ago to give special consideration to salary scales which should be prescribed for whole-time teachers in further education. After long deliberations the Council submitted reports to us. We looked at them very carefully but we could not accept them. I had a meeting with the National Joint Council and as a result we agreed that there should be set up a working party of officials from the Council and the Scottish
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Education Department to examine the principles upon which the salaries of teachers in further education are to be based. We want to settle the principles.
That working party has had one meeting and has had a further meeting last week. It is now, I hope, getting into its stride and, as far as we can see, its work should proceed reasonably well. We hope that the working party will reach a unanimous conclusion, which they will then submit to the Secretary of State and the National Joint Council. Thereafter, it will be for the Council to make recommendations to the Secretary of State and he will then decide and issue regulations. I hope that all this will be done in time for the issue of the regulations to operate next April.
We share completely the anxieties of hon. Members about the remote schools and their desire to maintain the populations of the distant parts of the country, and their view that to maintain these populations it is essential to retain the teachers. It is because we hold that view so strongly that we have taken the steps which we have taken witoh regard to remote school payments. As the House, and certainly Scottish hon. Members, will know, these payments have been made for a number of years. They were started after the last war. Since then, they have been gradually changed and slightly extended, but this year, 1954, we have made a really substantial bound forward. If hon. Members compare the figures that are now proposed with those which existed previously they will see the extent of the advance made. It is really very substantial.
Now I want to say a few words about what the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland so fairly and, I think, critically described as the hard lot of the teacher in these remote islands. He is remote, far from other families, and because he is remote, because he is so long a distance away, it costs 'him a lot of money to get his wife and children into the shopping centre. It is to meet these matters that we have set up these new proposals.
I will deal now with the question which that hon. Member put at the end of his speech. There are three sets of payments. First of all, there is the payment for teachers employed on distant islands; that type of teacher gets £40 extra. Secondly, there is employment in

2447
distant schools; here, the payment is in addition to that for the remote island, linen there are two binds of remote schools, one that is a little more remote than the other. In schools so remote the payment is £40 a year and for one exceptionally remote it is £70 a year. Therefore, as the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said, it is possible for a teacher in a very remote school to get a payment of £110. There is a further payment of £30 which we recognise.
It would follow that we cannot really make definitions to cover every case and there is an escape, or exceptional, clause, under which teachers may get—and 1 think two or three of the teachers in Shetland are affected—not only the £110, but an additional £30 as well. The hon. Member asked that we should examine those oases with sympathy and I can assure him that that is precisely what we are doing. I can give him proof of it if he would like that, because I have here the letters that we have exchanged with the Orkney and Shetland education authorities on this matter.
The hon. Member asked us if the Orkneys had been assisted to make exceptional grants for certain exceptional schools. I have the details here if the hon. Member would like me to give them. Here is a summary. Orkney applied in the case of five schools, four are junior secondary schools, not now defined as remote schools and asked for them to be classified as remote. We agreed. One school was a remote school and had qualified for the £40 increase. The authority asked that owing to the exceptional remoteness of the school that it should be rated at £70. We agreed to that.
Shetland asked for eight schools to be classified as remote, and in the case of five already qualified for the £70, that they should be allowed the extra £30 more than the absolute maximum. The Secretary of State in all these cases has given instructions that the wishes of the authorities are to be met completely. That is proof, I think, that we have looked at all these cases in the most sympathetic spirit.
The hon. Member also made the point that these extra payments which have to be paid to teachers of remote schools
2448
should not be a cost to the local authorities, and that they should be paid for by the Government or the Scottish Education Department, or at any rate most of it borne by them. I can answer him on that point. Of course, the regulations for salaries for teachers is not entirely the proper place for providing for special grants to education authorities. That should be done in grant regulations under a different section of the Act. But we will not worry too much about that. It is for a different reason that I invite the hon. Member not to press this unduly.
There does not seem to be a very good case for amending the Regulations for the reason that these Orkney and Shetland authorities, like others similarly placed, will rank for a grant of these extra payments in the same way as they rank for grant on other payments. Orkney and Shetland get in respect of all educational expenditure a grant of over 60 per cent, from the Scottish Education Department, but they get more than that. In respect of their educational expenditure they also get Exchequer equalisation grant.
As a result of the revised method of calculating Exchequer equalisation grant which is to operate in 1954–5, the educational expenditure of Orkney and Shetland will be met approximately as follows: in the case of Orkney, from the Education (Scotland) Fund, 64 per cent. of their total expenditure; and, from Exchequer equalisation grant, an additional 28 per cent. Therefore, Orkney is left with only 8 per cent, of its total educational expenditure to be met from local rates. In the case of Shetland, the figures are precisely the same. I do not think the hon. Member can expect us to do much more than that. His councils are themselves required to meet only 8 per cent., which is not a very great deal. I hope that in those circumstances he will feel that here, too. we have been reasonably generous.
The hon. Member asked me questions on another matter. He asked, in effect, who is to assess whether a school is remote and who is to assess what is a "centre of population." The answer in every case is that this will be decided by the local education authority. It could not be anyone else. We hope that these local education authorities will apply a sympathetic outlook in all these matters.

2449
For example, in considering whether to recognise a "centre of population," for the purposes of the Regulation, education authorities should have regard to such things as whether the place in question is a recognised shopping centre. They must use their common sense in this. Modest shopping facilities should be regarded as sufficient to fulfil the requirement, and recognition should not be withheld—to put it the other way round—merely because there does not happen to be a dentist or a cinema in the place. Authorities should not refuse to recognise a route solely because there is a shorter alternative, if the longer route is the one customarily employed by local people.
The question of what is sheltered and what is exposed water is, I agree, difficult to decide and around Orkney one would expect very little sheltered water, but experts tell me that that is not so. The decision should be made in the light of local knowledge and it is suggested— I offer this to the hon. Member—that waters like the Firth of Clyde north of a line from Campbeltown to Ayr, Loch Linnhe, Scapa Flow or the Wide Firth of Orkney should be regarded as sheltered and even short crossings such as those in the peripheral waters of the Orkneys, the Shetlands or the Outer Hebrides should be regarded as exposed. That is merely a broad hint to local authorities as to the methods by which they might proceed. Having given that explanation of these various matters I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel that we are very much with him. We have taken great pains to meet the desires of the local authorities, and I therefore hope that he will not wish to press the Prayer.
Hon. Members will recall that in a recent case the arbiter appointed by the National Joint Council asked us to look into this matter. We responded immediately, by getting into touch with all the local education authorities to discuss what the Highlands, and some of the South-West counties, and so on, wanted. We wrote to them, and said, "This is roughly what we think should be done. If you have any other ideas to suggest, please let us know." We produced draft Regulations, which were submitted to the
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local authorities and were again sent back to us. The result is here.
While I agree with the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland that these Regulations may seem complicated to the layman like him and me, there is no doubt that they are understood by the local education authorities. The proof is that no sooner were the Regulations published than the two local education authorities in the hon. Gentleman's constituency wrote to us asking the Secretary of State to make use of his special powers under Regulation 9. We have looked at this problem sympathetically and, indeed, generously, and therefore I ask whether the hon. Gentleman will not seek leave to withdraw the Prayer.
11.23 p.m.
Sir William Darling: The House is grateful to the Joint Under-Secretary for the exposition he has given on the Regulations and for the patience he has shown in going into these difficult questions. I should not be on my feet if he had not said that the Secretary of State was willing to consider any alternative arrangement, something that would leave out elaborate calculations.
Mr. Henderson Stewart: I would not like my hon. Friend to be misled. I said that the Secretary of State was very glad if authorities, like those of Orkney and Shetland, with claims to make, would make them quickly.
Sir W. Darling: Even if I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman I should be the last to believe that he could not listen to a sentence or two from me. This is not a question of teachers, but of depopulation of the Highlands. I hope the hon. Gentleman will convey that idea to colleagues.
Mr. Grimond: Before I ask to withdraw the Prayer I should like to thank the Joint Undersecretary of State, and ask him to convey to the Chancellor of the Exchequer our hope that he will not put off relief of Income Tax to Orkney and Shetland. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PRISONERS (MEDICAL TREAT MENT AND AFTER-CARE)
Motion made and Question proposed "That this House do now adjourn."— [Major Conant.]
11.25 p.m.
Mr. Victor Yates: I am raising tonight two important questions about the care of prisoners—the medical treatment of prisoners and welfare arrangements on discharge. I can make only a brief reference to the second question, as the main point I wish to bring to the attention of the House is the importance of adequate care for prisoners when they are placed in confinement. There is much disagreement about methods for the prevention of crime, but I do not think there is any disagreement about the fact that when prisoners are compelled to be confined in prisons they should not be placed in conditions which are a positive danger to their health. Such conditions would surely be an additional punishment which would be a crime on our part.
For that reason I want to raise the issue whether adequate care is being taken of those who are behind prison bars, a question which is raised particularly when one reads in the Press a story such as there was on 6th May under headlines which stated "Lack of treatment hastened man's death." That kind of headline and the information contained in the story give rise to serious concern among the public. The case I am referring to relates to an inquest on a prisoner named Ernest Walker Robinson, a prisoner at Wandsworth, who died in St. James Hospital, Balham, on 1st May.
The foreman of the jury at the inquest stated, and here I quote from the "Evening Standard":
"We are quite agreed that the deceased died from natural causes, but we think that it was accelerated by the lack of treatment he received while he was serving his prison sentence. We think he should have been sent to another hospital much earlier than he was."
That I submit is a serious indictment by the jury, and I think it is almost without precedent. I do not want to press this particular case, except to say that it does require investigation. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. James Hudson) is also interested in that
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case, and, if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he may be able to add something to what I have mentioned.
I am concerned about the conditions in all prisons, but particularly in Wandsworth, and I am extremely perturbed by this and other cases brought to my attention. I think that there is lack of adequate care, and the Chief Medical Officer must accept some responsibility for what is taking place. I now refer to the case of Leslie Morris Kane, who was discharged from Wandsworth on 4th December last. From September until December—and I have examined letters and documents relating to that period— the utmost pressure was placed on the authorities, not only by the man but by his relatives, for further medical examination.
On 5th October, the Governor of Wandsworth, replying to this man's sister, enclosed a letter which he had received from the medical officer Dr. Murdock. This letter said that there was no need to feel any anxiety about his condition and that any steps which might be necessary would be taken for the further consideration of his case. The man requested an examination at the London Hospital. It was stated that the London Hospital could not examine him without a letter from the Medical Officer at Wandsworth. This was refused, and, therefore, the man did not have the examination, nor the treatment to which he was entitled.
It was perhaps merciful that his period of imprisonment came to an end, and he was discharged on 4th December. Within one and a half hours of being discharged he went to his doctor—Dr. B. I. Copeland, of 70, Regents Park Road, London—who said that on 4th December,
"…he came to me and told me that he had just been discharged from Wandsworth prison that morning. He did not look well, and I examined him. I found (1) A recurrence of an inguinal hernia; (2) Signs suggesting a duodenal ulcer; (3) He still had pain in the back. I referred him back to the London Hospital, where my suspicions were confirmed after a thorough investigation. They diagnosed a duodenal ulcer. Also he is due to be operated on again for a recurrence of his hernia. He is also having to attend their Department of Physical "Medicine for treatment of his back."
I think it is extremely serious that that man should not have been able to get

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proper medical advice until he was discharged. At the moment he is still waiting for his operation.
I know full well from my examination of prison conditions, when the Select Committee on Estimates was examining this matter, that the medical facilities at prisons generally are most inadequate, and I appreciate that there is a shortage of medical officers. I think that it is little short of a miracle that worse does not happen as thousands are sleeping three to a cell. From my own personal experience while visiting Parkhurst, I believe that the arrangements, particularly for prisoners suffering from tuberculosis, are totally inadequate. I saw a prisoner named Smith who was actually dying in his cell. I tried to get him brought home. I thought it was absolutely horrible that that man had to be confined to his cell.
No tubercular patient is allowed to be in an open ward, and if a patient is bedridden he is confined to his cell. One realises that these prisoners have done wrong, but when a prisoner's health is in such great danger it is a serious matter, and the whole question ought to be investigated. I do not believe that prisoners who are suffering from tuberculosis can be treated satisfactorily in a prison like Parkhurst in such conditions.
I know of the case of a man named Robert Edward Davies, who has been in Parkhurst for about six years. He has twice been released from Parkhurst for operations for tuberculosis, and at the moment he is in a chest hospital in Godalming. He has written almost pleading that he shall not be taken back to a cell and perhaps end his days there. I suppose he has about a year to serve. Under better circumstances he might be able to overcome the difficulties of his ill-health. I should have thought that tubercular patients could have better treatment.
Nor do I think that the punishment cells at Parkhurst are adequately heated. I am told that prisoners often have to put on their coats. Prisoners whose health is in danger should not be put under such conditions. Those are just some examples. If necessary, I could provide further information about cases which have been the subject of correspondence between the hon. Members concerned and the Home Secretary.
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I turn to the second aspect. The test of a good prison system is what happens to the prisoner when he comes out. I shall not go into individual cases, but I feel that there is need for closer examination by the Home Office, the National Assistance Board and the after-care associations to see whether more adequate arrangements cannot be made to help these people, and more especially the homeless prisoners.
I was told by one prisoner who had served ten years that he was given 5s. on his release. That is totally inadequate help to give a man, even for one night. At Birmingham there is a prison-gate shelter where it is possible to offer a bed, but in many cases the only help is a 5s. grant. In Birmingham, one cannot get any accommodation better than Rowton House for that sum, and the Salvation Army hostels are generally full to overcrowding. I have received a letter from a woman who was convicted of shoplifting. When she was discharged she was homeless. She cannot find a job, she is homeless, and says: "I am shoplifting again and keeping my fingers crossed." That is a most extraordinary thing for a woman to write and to put her name to. She says that she and others like her know they have done wrong, but they are without work, they are homeless and she asks if I cannot do something to help them.
I feel that the two aspects of this subject which I have raised are worthy of further study by the Home Office. If the Minister can go into these matters carefully I am sure that the country will be grateful.
11.40 p.m.
Mr. James Hudson: I will take only a minute or two of the time which remains for the Parliamentary Secretary to reply. I am interested in the first case which my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates) raised, namely, that of Mrs. Robinson, the widow of E. W. Robinson, sentenced to two and a half years imprisonment in Wandsworth since 16th March. He was awaiting an opportunity to appeal against conviction. He fell ill. During his illness it appears that his wife wrote urgently to the Home Secretary. I spoke to her, and today she brought along a copy, or as good a copy as she could prepare, of that letter. She is not accustomed to keeping copies of letters.

2455
She wrote on 23rd April describing her husband's condition in the hospital at Balham, to which he had been moved. She said that while he was there a prison officer was constantly in attendance at his bedside, and as her husband was very ill the officer was a great cause of disturbance to him. She asked, among other things, for removal of the officer. That poor woman's letter was ignored. She has had no reply.
A further letter was sent by Messrs. F. A. Tickner and Co., Solicitors, of Paddington, asking, on the woman's behalf, about her husband's health when he was in the prison hospital. Although that was clearly put to the Governor, with a complaint that his illness did not appear to be attended to, no reply was sent by the Governor. I would ask that further inquiry be made into this case. The man is dead and gone. One deplores the possibility of a prisoner getting inadequate medical care, and of no one being willing officially to take the responsibility for saying what is going on.
11.44 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretory of State for the Home Department (Sir Hugh Lucas-Tooth): The treatment of prisoners is a subject on which public opinion is extremely sensitive and rightly so. There are moral implications of the highest importance. While punishment is one of the essential purposes of imprisonment, cruelty, either physical or mental, will not be tolerated by any hon. Member of this House. Every hon. Member will agree that once a man has purged his crime and leaves prison, he should be helped to re-establish himself, both in his own opinion and in the opinion of the community.
I have not much time in which to deal with this wide and important subject. Regarding the medical treatment of prisoners generally, every prison has a medical officer. Some have more than one, and some of the smaller ones have only a part-time officer. At the end of 1953 there were nine principal medical officers in the service, and 33 full-time medical officers. In addition, there were a number of part-time medical officers. Taking the part-time officers into account, there was rather more than one medical officer for every 500 prisoners in jail at any time. At the end of 1953 there were
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11 vacancies. There has been a slight increase in the number since, and the Prison Commissioners are now trying to bring the number up to establishment. There is a shortage, and we want to meet it as soon as possible.
Every prison has a separate hospital or, in the case of smaller prisons, separate sick rooms. There is a surgical unit at Wormwood Scrubs and, of course, there is the closest co-operation by outside hospitals with the prison medical services. About 600 cases were dealt with by outside hospitals as in-patients in 1952, which is the last year for which I have complete figures.
I have not time to review the specialist arrangements but I can tell the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates), who takes an interest in this matter, that there has been a substantial increase in the mass-radiography examinations. The round figure for 1952 was 2,900 such examinations, and by 1953 these had risen to 5,700, which is a substantial increase. The hon. Member referred to particular cases of tuberculosis in Park-hurst. Cases in that prison are treated in consultation with the Island's T.B. medical officer and I understand that he has expressed himself as satisfied with the arrangements there. I cannot give a more complete answer on that point now.
Every prisoner is medically examined on his reception in prison, on being transferred from one prison to another, and on his discharge. The House may wish me to say something about the methods of reporting sick because they are important in this context. In the ordinary way the prisoner reports to his landing officer when he is unlocked in the morning. The particulars are reported to the medical officer and examination takes place on the medical officer's rounds. In the case of sudden illness or accident in the day time, the prisoner is escorted or, if necessary, carried to hospital immediately, and in the case of sudden illness by night, the prisoner has a bell which he can ring, and the night duty officer has complete discretion as to what action he should take on being summoned in that way.
All doctors rely a good deal on what their patients say, and prisoners are peculiarly prone to conceal, exaggerate or to simulate their ailments. There are both psychological and practical reasons

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for that on which I need not enlarge. The prison doctor, therefore, is at a peculiar disadvantage by comparison with doctors generally, and, on the other hand, the need for correct diagnosis and treatment is peculiarly great in the case of a prisoner 'because of the rigorous discipline of prison life. For that reason we have a rather elaborate system of appeal—I hope I may use such an expression—from the decision of the prison doctor.
A prisoner who is dissatisfied may ask to see the director of medical services or his assistant. He may also petition the Secretary of State and, if he has petitioned the Secretary of State, he may thereafter write to a Member of Parliament. I think hon. Members on all sides of the House will appreciate that that is a right which is pretty freely exercised. At any rate, if any hon. Member doubts it, I can assure him that it is so.
I do not want to be complacent in this connection. I know that there is a deficiency of medical officers, and the present overcrowding in prisons is a very grave menace. But I should like to tell the House that among the prison population last year deaths from natural causes were at the rate of only two per thousand, which is not a high rate when one considers that the percentage of sick treated daily in prisons in 1953 was no less than 12 per cent, of the prison population.
Those figures, side by side, tell something of a tale on which I need not elaborate. There were no serious outbreaks of infectious disease, and I think it is true to say that prisoners generally leave in better health than when they come into prison, though it must be admitted that there are other reasons for that—a steady, good diet, and so on.
I would not for a moment say that there are no cases of faulty diagnosis or treatment in this service. There are in every service. But I do not think the case to which the hon. Members have referred1—the case of Robinson—is a good example. He was undergoing sentence for one offence and was due to appear on 13th April last at the Old Bailey on another serious charge. He
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was, therefore, no doubt, in a state of considerable mental disquiet.
He was a difficult prisoner because he was what is generally called "an escaper." I think, perhaps, that gives some answer to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. J. Hudson) as to the reason for having to keep an eye on him. He had made numerous attempts to escape. He complained, at various times between 9th and 21st April, of constipation, of having sore muscles, lack of sleep and headache. Those are matters of which all of us, I think, from time to time complain without being seriously ill. There was a slight rise in his temperature on 14th April, and some other slight symptoms, not of an alarming character, and he was put to bed. He felt better after that and was allowed up to take some exercise. He stated that he had enjoyed his exercise.
On 21st April, at 7.30 a.m., he was visited by the hospital principal officer, and said he was feeling all right. At 8 o'clock that morning he vomited blood. He was seen immediately by a doctor, Dr. Lee, who happened to be available, and by 8.55, within the hour, he was admitted to St. James Hospital, Balham. He was there examined by several well-known consultants. I should tell hon. Members that the diagnosis remained obscure for the ten days in which he was in that hospital before he died.
In fact, he died of periarteritis nodosa, which, I am advised, is a rare complaint. It has extremely variable symptoms and in the majority of cases in which it occurs it is not revealed until post mortem, as was the case here. I think hon. Members will see, therefore, that this was not a case in which there was any laxity at all, and in respect of which anyone can be blamed for what occurred.
The hon. Member for Ladywood, raised the case of Leslie Maurice Kane—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'Clock and the debate having continued for half an hour Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Five Minutes to Twelve o'Clock.