§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. Ness EdwardsWe are now dealing with the other part of the financial arrangements whereby the £2 million will be made available to the I.T.A. During the Committee stage we have heard repeatedly that the requirements of the I.T.A. for capital expenditure are getting less and less. Its responsibility for providing studios and masts appears to have gone, and now there seems hardly anything left upon which the I.T.A. can spend capital.
At the commencement of the Bill the I.T.A. had wide capital responsibilities, and now that these have been whittled down during the Committee stage we should like to know from the Home Secretary why this capital is still needed. We are entitled to information upon this before we part from the Clause.
§ Mr. GammansThe right hon. Gentleman is not quite right in suggesting that there is agreement that the masts will be used by both bodies. We hope that they will be, but I cannot be definite about it at this stage. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that the demands upon the Authority have lessened as the Bill has proceeded. I cannot agree. It was never the idea from the beginning that it was essential for the new Authority to equip itself with studios. I would say that the amount of money which is required by the Authority is what we envisaged when the Bill was first presented.
I remind the right hon. Gentleman that we are dealing with £2 million, of which £1 million may be advanced in the first year, and that the second £1 million will only be advanced if the money is required.
§ Mr. ShackletonOnce again, will the Government produce another White Paper? We still do not know why the Authority wants the money or how the scheme will work, and I very much doubt whether the Government know 1219 themselves. Could we have some detailed explanation as to how this money is to be laid out?
§ Mr. Ernest DaviesI endorse what my hon. Friend has said. It is ridiculous that this money is to be voted for the use of the Independent Television Authority when we have had no indication from the Government of how it is to be used. As the debates have proceeded, it has emerged that the powers of the Authority are to be even less than they were in the original Bill.
We are now told that the Authority will not equip studios and will share the masts with the B.B.C. and that it is very unlikely to require this money, but even if this money is made available to the Authority and it could build its own studios, erect its own masts, establish its own transmitters, and so on, it is very doubtful whether it could use this money.
There is a shortage of equipment and of technicians, trained staff and the like. It would be very difficult for the Authority to spend this money on capital equipment and to obtain the necessary staff which it is required to do within two years of the passing of the Bill. Even if that were possible, it could only be done by encroaching on the B.B.C. and drawing away equipment which the B.B.C. requires for the completion and extension of its existing network and of the five stations which it is building, and for the establishment ultimately of its alternative programme.
The alternative programme we would far rather see would be that established by the B.B.C. I would suggest that every £1,000 spent by the B.B.C. is worth £10,000 spent by the Authority. The B.B.C. with its experience, technical skill and present facilities could make a far more valuable use of this money than could the I.T.A. It is unfair to the B.B.C. to divert public money in this way to the I.T.A. Unless the Home Secretary replies to the debate and tells us exactly how this money is going to be spent and what it is required for, it will be very difficult for us to agree to this Clause.
§ 10.15 p.m.
§ Mr. H. MorrisonIt is clear that the Guillotine under which we are working makes it impossible for us adequately to discuss this Bill in Committee. We are 1220 now at Clause 9, and even to reach it we had voluntarily to limit ourselves to conform to the Guillotine. The Committee will notice that there are altogether 17 Clauses in the Bill and that the others have not been discussed at all. True there are no Amendments down, but they ought to be discussed and it is a sign of the inadequacy of the time allowed and of the weakness of the Guillotine. [Laughter.] Hon. Members opposite are as usual giggling and laughing about this, but they will giggle in some other way before we have finished with them in another Parliament.
This Clause is a confession of failure. What it does is to indicate that there is no reliance whatever to be placed upon commercial television, and yet that has been the argument behind the Bill. The argument has been that commercial television can give the public something for nothing. It beats Mr. Lloyd George's 9d. for 4d. This is much more than 9d. for 4d. There is no 4d. It is 9d. for nothing, and that is the argument in favour of the policy behind the Bill.
Quite apart from the £750,000 a year provided for under Clause 8, it is clear that the Government propose to finance these undertakings by a grant of capital money up to £2 million. It is an advance which is to be repaid, but if it is not repaid, and these undertakings go bankrupt—quite frankly, I shall not be sorry if they do—presumably the £2 million of taxpayers' money is gone.
§ Mr. Godfrey Nicholson (Farnham)Like the groundnuts.
§ Mr. MorrisonIt seems to be a habit of the party opposite that, whatever difficulty it is in and it finds it cannot answer the argument put forward, it always refers to the groundnut scheme. I thought the hon. Gentleman had more ingenuity than to fall back upon this universal remedy for intellectual bankruptcy. I have enjoyed many open air meetings in my time, and I have been interrupted at many of them. I have promoted interruptions at open air meetings against myself in order to get an audience or to get some Tory or another to say "Groundnuts." But it is a little below the level of a Committee of the House of Commons to continue to use that argument, and especially is that so with the hon. Gentleman for whom, politics apart, I have a certain amount of regard. 1221 It is clear from the Clause that the Government do not believe in the commercial success of commercial television. They do not accept their own argument that it is bound to be a commercial success. In fact, they know that commercially it cannot stand on its own feet. Therefore, first they dip their fingers into the taxpayers' or licence fee payers' pockets and take out £750,000 a year for these privateers, and now under this Clause they are taking out a£2 million of Treasury money for the purpose of financing and helping to float as a capital undertaking these concerns which it is supposed will be so successful. It is a confession of failure and an admission that this undertaking cannot stand on its own feet. It is an admission that the boast that this is something for nothing is not true. It is not something for nothing. First of all, there is an out-right subsidy and then there is the capital advance, although it is true that that is supposed to be repaid.
It is an admission that the argument that commercial television can go ahead without any public subsidy, without public guarantee, without public support out of public funds is a false and nonsensical argument. It is not true in any case, because the commercialists will receive a large amount of their subsidy out of the consumers' pockets, out of the pockets of the people who buy the things that will be advertised on the commercial television screen. Consequently, it is not something for nothing. Even so, we come to the Clause where we find that this substantial
§ sum of money is approved. I hope that the Home Secretary, who presumably will have the last word on this matter, will be able to clear up the points which have been raised from this side of the Committee.
§ Finally, this Guillotine has been a scandalous business. It has treated us very roughly and very badly. I am sure that we ought not to be subjected to this kind of thing. In my last words on the Bill at this stage I protest with the greatest sincerity against the misuse of the Guillotine and the harshness of the terms which have been imposed upon us, consequently creating an inadequate consideration on the Committee stage of an important Bill.
§ Mr. NicholsonI am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has made that speech and that he has said that he would gladly see public money lost. I am sorry that he has protested against the Guillotine when more than anybody else his party has been very largely responsible for it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] I wish to mollify the right hon. Gentleman and apologise for saying "Groundnuts." After all, it was perhaps not kind to call attention to things like that.
§ Mr. MorrisonCan the hon. Gentleman tell us how we are responsible for the Guillotine?
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 224.
1223| Division No. 133.] | AYES | [10.24 p.m. |
| Aitken, W. T. | Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. | Doughty, C. J. A. |
| Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) | Bullard, D. G. | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Burden, F. F. A. | Drewe, Sir C. |
| Amory, Rt. Hon. Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Butcher, Sir Herbert | Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. |
| Arbuthnot, John | Campbell, Sir David | Duthie, W. S. |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) | Carr, Robert | Eccles, Rt. Hon. Sir D. M. |
| Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. | Cary, Sir Robert | Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West) |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W E. |
| Banks, Cot. C. | Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) | Erroll, F. J. |
| Barlow, Sir John | Clyde, Rt. Hon. J. L. | Finlay, Graeme |
| Baxter, A. B. | Cole, Norman | Fisher, Nigel |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Colegate, W. A. | Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F |
| Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) | Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Fletcher-Cooke, C. |
| Bennett, F. M. (Reading, N.) | Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert | Fort, R. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Cooper-Key, E. M. | Foster, John |
| Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth) | Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lansdale) |
| Birch, Nigel | Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell |
| Bishop, F. P. | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollock) |
| Black, G. W. | Crouch, R. F. | Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hilthead) |
| Boothby, Sir R. J. G. | Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Gammans, L. D. |
| Bowen, E. R. | Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood) | Garner-Evans, E H |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A. | Deedes, W. F. | Glover, D. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Digby, S. Wingfield | Godber, J. B. |
| Brains, B. R. | Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A |
| Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) | Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. | Gough, C. F. H. |
| Brooman-White, R. C. | Donner, Sir P. W. | Gower, H. R. |
| Graham, Sir Fergus | ||
| Grimond, J. | Mackeson, Brig. Sir Harry | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) | McKibben, A. J. | Roper, Sir Harold |
| Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) | Mackie, J. H. (Galloway) | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard |
| Hall, John (Wycombe) | Maclay, Rt. Hon. John | Russell, R. S. |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) | Maclean, Fitzroy | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) | Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas |
| Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) | MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) | Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. |
| Harvey, Air Cdr. A. V. (Macclesfield) | Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) | Scott, R. Donald |
| Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) | Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) | Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R. |
| Harvie-Watt, Sir George | Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) | Shepherd, William |
| Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir Lionel | Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. | Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) |
| Heath, Edward | Markham, Major Sir Frank | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) |
| Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Marlowe, A. A. H. | Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) |
| Higgs, J. M. C. | Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) | Snadden, W. McN. |
| Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) | Maude, Angus | Spearman, A. C. M. |
| Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Maudling, R. | Speir, R. M. |
| Hirst, Geoffrey | Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. C | Spens, Rt. Hon. Sir P. (Kensington, S.) |
| Holland-Martin, C J. | Medlicott, Brig. F. | Stevens, Geoffrey |
| Hollis, M. C. | Mellor, Sir John | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich., W.) |
| Holt, A. F. | Molson, A. H. E. | Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Hope, Lord John | Morrison, John (Salisbury) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry | Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) |
| Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. | Nabarro, G. D. N. | Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) |
| Horobin, I. M. | Neave, Airey | Summers, G. S. |
| Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence | Nicholls, Harmer | Sutcliffe, Sir Harold |
| Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) | Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) |
| Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) | Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) | Teeling, W. |
| Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) | Nield, Basil (Chester) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Hurd, A. R. | Nugent, G. R. H. | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) | Oakshott, H. D. | Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) |
| Hyde, Lt.-Col. H. M. | O'Neill, Hon. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) | Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. |
| Hylton-Foster, H. B. H | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. | Turner, H. F. L. |
| Iremonger, T. L. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Turton, R. H. |
| Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) | Orr-Ewing, Charles lain (Hendon, N.) | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Jennings, Sir Roland | Osborne, C. | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Johnson, Erie (Bleckley) | Page, R. G. | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K |
| Johnson, Howard (Kempton) | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | Vosper, D. F. |
| Jones, A. (Hall Green) | Paton, J. | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Joynson-Hicks, Hon L. W | Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Walker-Smith, D. C. |
| Kaberry, D. | Pilkington, Capt. R. A. | Wall, Major P. H. B. |
| Kerby, Capt. H. B. | Pitman, I. J. | Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) |
| Kerr, H. W. | Pitt, Miss E. M. | Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) |
| Lambert, Hon. G. | Powell, J. Enoch | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. |
| Lambton, Viscount | Rakes, Sir Victor | Watkinson, H. A. |
| Langford-Holt, J. A. | Ramsden, J. E. | Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) |
| Leather, E. H. C. | Rayner, Brig. R. | Wellwood, W. |
| Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Redmayne, M. | Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) |
| Lindsay, Martin | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Linstead, Sir H. N. | Remnant, Hon. P. | Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) |
| Llewellyn, D. T. | Renton, D. L M | Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter) |
| Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. | Ridsdale, J. E. | Wills, G. |
| Longden, Gilbert | Roberts, Peter (Heeley) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Robertson, Sir David | Wood, Hon. R. |
| McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. | Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) | |
| Macdonald, Sir Peter | Robson-Brown, W | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mr. Studholme and Mr. Legh. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Adams, Richard | Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) | Edelman, M. |
| Albu, A. H. | Callaghan, L J | Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Carmichael, J. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Champion, A. J. | Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) |
| Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) | Chapman, W. D. | Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C R. | Chetwynd, G. R. | Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Clunie, J. | Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Coldrick, W. | Fernyhough, E. |
| Bartley, P. | Collick, P. H. | Fienburgh, W. |
| Bence, C. R. | Cove, W. G. | Finch, H. J. |
| Benson, G. | Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) |
| Bing, G. H. C | Crosland, C. A. R. | Follick, M. |
| Blackburn, F. | Crossman, R. H. S. | Foot, M. M. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Daines, P. | Forman, J. C. |
| Blylon, W. R. | Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) |
| Boardman, H. | Darling, George (Hillsborough) | Freeman, Peter (Newport) |
| Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G. | Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Mongomery) | Gibson, C. W. |
| Bowden, H. W. | Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) | Glanville, James |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Gooch, E. G. |
| Brockway, A. F. | Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) | Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. |
| Brook, Dryden (Halifax) | de Freitas, Geoffrey | Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Deer, G. | Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Delargy, H. J. | Grey, C. F. |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Dodds, N. N. | Griffiths, David (Rather Valley) |
| Burke, W. A. | Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) |
| Burton, Miss F. E. | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Griffiths, William (Exchange) |
| Hale, Leslie | Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke-on-Trent) |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Mason, Roy | Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) |
| Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) | Mayhew, C. P. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Hamilton, W. W. | Mellish, R. J. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Hannan, W. | Messer, Sir F. | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Hargreaves, A. | Mikardo, Ian | Sparks, J. A. |
| Hastings, S. | Monslow, W. | Steele, T. |
| Hayman, F. H. | Moody, A. S. | Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. W. | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) | Morley, R. | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) |
| Herbison, Miss M. | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) | Stress, Dr. Barnett |
| Hobson, C. R. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Holman, P. | Mort. D. L. | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Holmes, Horace | Moyle, A | Taylor, John (West Lothian) |
| Houghton, Douglas | Mulley, F. W. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Oldfield, W. H. | Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Oliver, G. H. | Thomson, George (Dundee, E.) |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oswald, T. | Thornton, E. |
| Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Paget, R. T. | Timmons, J. |
| Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Paling Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Palmer, A. M. F. | Usborne, H. C. |
| Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. | Pannell, Charles | Viant, S. P. |
| Jeger, George (Goole) | Parker, J. | Wade, D. W. |
| Jeger, Mrs. Lena | Pearson, A. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) | Plummer, Sir Leslie | Watkins, T. E. |
| Johnson, James (Rugby) | Popplewell, E. | Weitzman, D. |
| Jones, David (Hartlepool) | Porter, G. | Wells, William (Walsall) |
| Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Price, J. T. (Westhoughton) | West, D. G. |
| Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| Keenan, W. | Proctor, W. T. | White, Mrs. Eirene (E.Flint) |
| Kenyon, C. | Pryde, D. J. | White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Pursey, Cmdr. H. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| King, Dr. H. M. | Rankin, John | Wigg, George |
| Lawson, G. M. | Reeves, J. | Willey, F. T. |
| Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Reid, Thomas (Swindon) | Williams, David (Neath) |
| Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) | Reid, William (Camlachie) | Williams,, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) |
| Lindgren, G. S. | Rhodes, H. | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Robens, Rt. Hon. A. | Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) |
| Logan, D. G. | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Willis E. G. |
| MacColl, J. E. | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) |
| McInnes, J. | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| McKay, John (Wallsend) | Ross, William | Wyatt, W. L. |
| McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. | Shackleton, E. A. A. | Yates, V. F. |
| Mainwaring, W. H. | Short, E. W. | Younger, Rt. Hon. K. |
| Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Shurmer, P. L. E. | |
| Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Silverman, Julius (Erdington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mann, Mrs. Jean | Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) | Mr. Wilkins and |
| Manuel, A. C. | Skeffington, A. M. | Mr. G. H. R. Rogers. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ It being after half-past Ten o'Clock, The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Questions necessary to bring the Proceedings in Committee to a conclusion, including the Question on an Amendment moved by a Member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to Clause 12.
§ Clauses 10 and 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.