§ Mr. E. FletcherI beg to move, in page 31, line 27, at the end, to insert:
(3) As from the first day of August, nineteen hundred and fifty-three, there shall be exempt from all stamp duties any instrument being a mortgage, charge or other deed securing any loan from the Public Works Loan Board to any local authority within the meaning of the Local Government Act, 1933, or any receipt given on the discharge or repayment of any such loan.Clause 29 deals with Stamp Duties, and in particular is designed to give certain relief from Stamp Duties on transactions which are of particular concern to local authorities. I think that the position with which subsection (2) of this Clause deals was discussed about a year ago in connection with the Public Works Loans Act. The object of the Amendment is to carry the exemption from Stamp Duty one stage further. At present Stamp Duties are payable on all transactions between the Public Works Loan Board and local 1123 authorities, of which there are large numbers every year. The amount of revenue this brings in to the Treasury must necessarily be not considerable, having regard to the amount of administrative work involved. The argument which I hope will appeal to the Financial Secretary is that in these days it is undesirable to produce unnecessary administrative labour in transactions between one Government Department and another, or between a Government Department and local authorities.The whole burden of representations made from these benches for a long time has been that unnecessary administrative arrangements between the Government and local authorities should be limited. The object of the Amendment is largely directed to permitting those concerned with local government finances to reduce the present expense and administrative work of a detailed kind which is involved in stamping a large number of documents. If this Amendment were accepted by the Government it would produce considerable economy in the day to day operations of the Public Works Loan Board and of local authorities. It is very necessary to avoid any undue bureaucratic effort that can be avoided, and I hope that the Chancellor will be able to accept this Amendment.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI appreciate the hon. Member's interest in this matter, as I understand that he is a member of the Public Works Loan Board. This Amendment, I think, goes a little further than was suggested by the comparatively innocuous way in which the hon. Gentleman presented it. That is, no doubt, an example of good advocacy. His suggestion was that some economy would be achieved. I am advised that the cost to the Revenue of what is proposed would be over £1 million. Therefore, a good deal of administrative trouble would have to be saved to compensate for that.
§ Mr. E. FletcherIs that the net figure or gross figure, because, of course, a large part of that is contributed to by the Exchequer?
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThat, of course, is the actual loss of revenue which would accrue from this concession. Without taking into account such extremely complicated consequential effects on the local 1124 authorities, which are, of course, by no means one-sided in this matter, what in strict, obvious terms the Committee must consider is not just a question of tidying up some administrative difficulty but a matter of £1¼ million.
The second point is this. The Clause really falls into two parts. The part to which the Amendment relates concerns the issue of local authority stocks in accordance with the new policy under which local authorities are enabled to go to the market, a policy with which, I know, the hon. Gentleman is familiar, and which he and I have discussed on other occasions. It was represented to us in the discussions with the local authorities that one of the difficulties in the way of a prudent local authority, when weighing carefully whether to exercise its right to go to the market, was the rate of Stamp Duty as increased some years ago. The Clause is intended, therefore, to meet their point of view by restoring the duty to the old and lower rate.
That is a quite different purpose, of course, from the issues from the Public Works Loan Board, with which the hon. Gentleman's Amendment is concerned, and I would suggest to him that, apart from the merits of the matter, which I have discussed, it would hardly be consistent with the purpose of this proposal, which deals with the question of loans raised by the alternative method open to local authorities, at the same time to take the step which the hon. Gentleman here suggests. I am afraid, therefore, that for these reasons it is not possible to accept the Amendment.
§ Sir F. SoskiceThe Financial Secretary has said that my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) was acting in his capacity as an advocate.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterNo. The right hon. and learned Gentleman must not say that. I was saying that the hon. Gentleman was presenting this as an innocuous proposal, and that that was, no doubt, part of the technique of a skilled advocate. I intended it as a compliment, and I would add it also to the right hon. and learned Gentleman.
§ Sir F. SoskiceThe Financial Secretary really need not take the trouble to do that to me, so far as I am concerned.
1125 I am quite sure that my hon. Friend had no intention whatsoever of presenting something that had a baleful quality in an innocuous guise. All he was doing was to try to put forward what seems to me, at any rate, and, I believe, my hon. Friends, to be a very sensible and modest proposal. What is the answer to that proposal? The Financial Secretary says that it will cost a £1 million, but that is not the whole of the picture. He then goes on to say that it is inconsistent with the purpose of the Clause. In what way is it inconsistent? He has indicated to the Committee what the purpose of the Clause is, that local authorities who want to go to the market are to be given certain reliefs. Why is that inconsistent with what my hon. Friend proposes?
11.0 p.m.
I do not want to repeat his arguments. He advanced them succinctly. First he pointed out that there would be saving in cost, administrative effort and labour. I simply rely on those same arguments that he used, and I must confess, speaking for myself, that I thought the Financial Secretary's answer was about the most disappointing one that we have had this evening. I hope that my hon. Friends, having listened to both sides of the discussion, will register their protest in the Division Lobby.
§ Mr. G. R. Mitchison (Kettering)May I add one word? I completely fail to understand why certain borrowings should be exempt from Stamp Duty, and other borrowings, which are sought to be introduced by this Amendment, should not be so exempt. It seems to me that in this business of local government borrowing in general, the object of the Treasury ought to be to simplify and ease the borrowing by whatever method that can be done, and the Clause, so far as it goes, is a recognition of that. I should have thought it wholly illogical, having proposed to do it on those lines, to refuse to do it on the lines which are suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher) Some time ago I suggest that it was to
§ use taxation—and Stamp Duty falls into that category—to make a political discrimination and I can see nothing but political discrimination in the Clause as drafted. It seems to me that the Amendment is justifiable if on no other grounds than it is sheer political preference to allow this in one case and to refuse it in another.
§ Sir Geoffrey Hutchinson (Ilford, North)The aspect of this matter in which the local authorities are most interested is the question of Stamp Duty, not on the mortgages of their loans, but on the transfer of their stocks. Local authorities like to issue their securities as stamp-free securities, and in order to do that they commonly pay the Stamp Duty on the stock transfers. Double Stamp Duty has been a substantial burden and I am very glad that my right hon. Friend has now seen his way to do away with double Stamp Duty.
That is really the answer to the point made by the right hon. and learned Member for Neepsend (Sir F. Soskice). I do not think that the local authorities are particularly interested in the Stamp Duty on their mortgages. Indeed, many of them take the view that they would prefer to be treated in the same way as other borrowers; but double Stamp Duty on their stock transfers has been an important matter. It is important both to the local authorities and to the Treasury that those local authorities who are able to do so should be encouraged to go to the market for their requirements. This double Stamp Duty has been an obstacle in their way and I am very glad that my right hon. Friend proposes to do away with it. When that obstacle has been removed the result is likely to be that many local authorities which might otherwise have refrained from doing so will be encouraged to go to the market. That will be a good thing both for the local authorities and for the Treasury.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 190.
1129| Division No. 191.] | AYES | [11.5 p.m. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Beswick, F. | Bowles, F, G. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Bing, G. H. C | Brockway, A. F, |
| Bacon, Miss Alice | Blackburn, F. | Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A J | Blenkinsop, A. | Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Bolper) |
| Bartley, P. | Boardman, H. | Burke, W. A. |
| Bence, C. R. | Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G | Callaghan, L. J. |
| Carmichael, J. | Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) | Shurmer, P. L. E. |
| Champion, A. J. | Keenan, W. | Silverman, Julius (Erdington) |
| Collick, P. H. | Kenyon, C. | Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill) |
| Corbel, Mrs. Freda | King, Dr. H. M. | Skeffington, A. M. |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | MacColl, J. E. | Slater, J. (Durham, Sedgefield) |
| Darling, George (Hillsborough) | McInnes, J. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) | MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | McNeill, Rt. Hon. H. | Sparks, J. A. |
| Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Manuel, A. C. | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) |
| Deer, G. | Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Stross, Dr. Barnett |
| Delargy, H. J. | Mason, Roy | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Mayhew, C. P. | Swingler, S. T. |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Mikardo, Ian | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Edelman, M. | Mitchison, G. R. | Taylor, John (West Lothian) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse) | Moody, A. S. | Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth) |
| Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) | Morley, R. | Thomas, David (Aberdare) |
| Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) | Mulley, F. W. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Fernyhough, E. | Murray, J. D. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Fienburgh, W. | Nally, W. | Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) |
| Finch, H. J. | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Thornton, E. |
| Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. | Usborne, H. C. |
| Follick, M. | Orbach, M. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Oswald, T. | Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Freeman, John (Watford) | Padley, W. E. | Wells, William (Walsall) |
| Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) | ||
| Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | West, D. G. |
| Gibson, C. W. | Palmer, A. M. F. | Wheeldon, W. E. |
| Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) | Pargiter, G. A. | White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) |
| Grey, C. F. | Parker J. | White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Peart, T. F. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Hale, Leslie | Plummer, Sir Leslie | Wigg, George |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Popplewell, E. | Willey, F. T. |
| Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) | Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton) | Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) |
| Hargreaves, A. | Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Hayman, F. H. | Proctor, W. T. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Hobson, C. R. | Pryde, D. J. | Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) |
| Holman, P. | Reid, Thomas (Swindon) | Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) |
| Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth) | Rhodes, H. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) | Robens, Rt, Hon. A. | Wyatt, W. L. |
| Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Yates, V. F. |
| Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) | Younger, Rt. Hon. K. |
| Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Ross, William | |
| Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. | Royle, C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) | Shackleton, E. A. A. | Mrs. Bowden and |
| Jones, David (Hartlepool) | Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley | Mr. Kenneth Robinson. |
| Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Short, E. W. | |
| NOES | ||
| Aitken, W. T. | Channon, H. | Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) |
| Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Sir Winston | Heald, Sir Lionel |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) | Heath, Edward |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Cole, Norman | Higgs, J. M. C. |
| Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Colegate, W. A. | Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) |
| Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) | Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) | Cooper-Key, E. M. | Hirst, Geoffrey |
| Astor, Hon. J. J. | Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Holland-Martin, C. J |
| Baldock, Lt.-Comdr. J. M. | Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Hollis, M. C. |
| Banks, Col. C. | Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) |
| Barlow, Sir John | Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) | Hope, Lord John |
| Baxter, A. B. | Crouch, R. F. | Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. |
| Beach, Maj. Hicks | Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) | Horobin, I. M. |
| Beamish, Maj. Tufton | Davidson, Viscountess | Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) |
| Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) | Deedes, W. F. | Howard, Hon. Greville (St. Ives) |
| Birch, Nigel | Digby, S. Wingfield | Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) |
| Bishop, F. P. | Doughty, C. J. A. | Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) |
| Black, C. W. | Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. | Hulbert, Wing Cdr. N. J. |
| Boothby, Sir R. J. G. | Fell, A. | Hutchinson, Sir Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) |
| Bossom, Sir A. C. | Finlay, Graeme | Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) |
| Bowen, E. R. | Fisher, Nigel | Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. | Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Fletcher-Cooke, C. | Johnson, Eric (Blackley) |
| Braine, B. R. | Fort, R. | Kaberry, D. |
| Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) | Foster, John | Keeling, Sir Edward |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.) | Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) | Kerr, H. W. |
| Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) | Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. |
| Brooman-White, R. C. | Garner-Evans, E. H. | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hen. P. G. T. | Graham, Sir Fergus | Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield) |
| Bullard, D. G. | Gridley, Sir Arnold | Lindsay, Martin |
| Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. | Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) | Linstead, Sir H. N. |
| Burden, F. F. A. | Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury) | Lloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.) |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) | Harden, J. R. E. | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. |
| Campbell, Sir David | Hare, Hon. J. H. | Longden, Gilbert |
| Carr, Robert | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) | Low, A. R. W. |
| Cary, Sir Robert | Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) |
| McCallum, Major D. | Peyton, J. W. W. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Macdonald, Sir Peter | Pilkington, Capt. R. A | Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury) |
| Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) | Pitman, I. J. | Thompson, Kenneth (Walton) |
| Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Powell, J. Enoch | Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.) |
| Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) | Tilney, John |
| Maitland, Comdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle) | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. | Touche, Sir Gordon |
| Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) | Profumo, J. D. | Turner, H. F. L. |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. | Rayner, Brig, R. | Turton, R. H. |
| Marples, A. E. | Redmayne, M. | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Maude, Angus | Renton, D. L. M. | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K |
| Maudling, R. | Roberts, Peter (Heeley) | Vosper, D. F. |
| Maydon, Lt.-Comdr. S. L. O | Roper, Sir Harold | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Mellor, Sir John | Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (St. Marylebone) |
| Molson, A. H. E. | Russell, R. S. | Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) |
| Nabarro, G. D. N. | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. | Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth) |
| Nicholls, Harmar | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur | |
| Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E) | Sandys, Rt. Hon. D. | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. |
| Nield, Basil (Chester) | Scott, R. Donald | Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster) |
| Nugent, G. R. H. | Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R | Wellwood, W. |
| Nutting, Anthony | Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.) | Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) |
| Oakshott, H. D. | Smithers, Sir Waldron (Orpington) | Williams, Paul (Sunderland, S.) |
| O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) | Soames, Capt. C. | Wills, G. |
| Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. | Spearman, A. C. M | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Stevens, G. P. | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W) | York, C. |
| Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian (Weston-super-Mare) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. | |
| Osborne, C. | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Partridge, E. | Summers, G, S. | Sir Herbert Butcher and |
| Perkins, W. R. D. | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) | Mr. Studholme. |
§ Mr. GaitskellI beg leave to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
It is now almost 11.15 p.m., and, as the Chancellor is aware, many hon. Gentle- men find it particularly convenient to leave the House of Commons about this time. The Chancellor has always been very considerate of the convenience of hon. Gentlemen on previous occasions in this year's debates and also last year's and we all pay tribute to that. We have another four or live Clauses to consider before we come to the end of the Bill, and, of course, beyond that we have a large number of new Clauses on the Order Paper which, I understand, we shall be considering next week.
I imagine that the Chancellor would be glad if he could complete the Bill this evening. But I would draw his attention to the fact that there are among the five Clauses, two of substantial importance. There is Clause 30, dealing with Excess Profits Tax post-war refunds, which seems to us to contain some very odd proposals, and there is Clause 32, which provides for the permanent annual charge on the National Debt. That involves the whole question of the Government's Bank rate and monetary policy.
11.15 p.m.
These are very wide issues and I am sure that the Committee would agree that they should not be discussed at this hour. We do not very frequently have an opportunity to discuss the Government's Bank rate policy and as we shall be considering 1130 the new Clauses next week I suggest it would be for the convenience of everyone if we could adjourn now. We should then have an opportunity of discussing much more clearly these important issues and I do not believe any time would be lost as a result.
There are a number of new Clauses. We do not know what will be selected but I urge strongly that we should adjourn now so that we may have a chance of discussing particularly the permanent charge on the National Debt under more convenient conditions.
§ Mr. R. A. ButlerThe right hon. Gentleman is, I think, being a little unreasonable. Our idea always has been to get the Bill tonight. Indeed, the idea before that was to take the Bill and to start on the new Clauses, but it was represented to me that that was unreasonable and I agreed. I had no intention of starting the new Clauses tonight, but I had representation made to me that we should start with an important new Clause on Monday.
Now the right hon. Gentleman comes suddenly with this now proposal that we should leave open even Clause 29, which is a concession to local authorities and on which we have already had a Division. It is quite unreasonable to leave open that Clause. I know that my right hon. and hon. Friends desire to make more progress. Clause 30 is perfectly reasonable. I think we can give a reasonable explanation of it. A ques- 1131 tion arises on Clause 31 which is not controversial.
The only remaining subject which can be discussed on the Bill is the question of the National Debt which, normally, does not lead to a long debate. If it is the intention of the Opposition to raise a debate we had better consider that when we come to it. I would not expect that to raise the whole question of the Bank rate policy, but if that is brought up and is in order no one can prevent the Opposition from putting forward what they wish.
I suggest we make some progress with these immediate matters, which I do not thing are controversial. But if there is to be a debate on important policy, now that we have made such good progress I do not want to keep the Committee too long. Perhaps we might leave it like that to see how we get on.
§ Mr. GaitskellI have no desire to be unreasonable and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I did not start out with any intention to postpone part of the discussion on the Bill itself until next week. But it so happens we have reached this stage and we have these important matters to discuss. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to take Clauses 29, 30 and 31 and then to see how we have got on, with the possibility of leaving Clause 32, that is not unreasonable. In the circumstances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.