HC Deb 10 February 1953 vol 511 cc321-49
Mr. Hargreaves

I beg to move, in page 34, line 12, to leave out "interests of national defence," and to insert, "public interest."

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I would suggest that this Amendment and the next two Amendments can be taken together, that proposing to leave out lines 16 to 21, and that to line 19, to leave out "interests of national defence," and to insert "public interest."

Mr. Callaghan

If my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Hargreaves) will allow me to say so, I think there is something to be said for a separate discussion on the proposed omission of lines 16 to 21. However, perhaps it would be convenient to take them together, provided we can have the Questions put separately.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The Questions will be put separately, but the discussion of the three Amendments can be taken together.

Mr. Hargreaves

This Amendment, and the third of these three, are in precisely similar terms. They widen the scope of the Clause. It will be plain to the Minister and to the House what is the purpose behind the insertion of these words. Many of us have felt for a long time that the resources available to the British Transport Commission represent in themselves an immense amount of national capital in the transport industry, and there has grown up a feeling that when we take together the amount of labour and capital involved in the road services and on the rail, and in the other services controlled under the 1947 Act, there are immense national resources tied up in transport which, perhaps, are not being used effectively and fully, interlocking with the rest of our industrial system.

I feel that the skilled labour on the railways, which is available in the workshops and in the repair shops, the ability that has been built up over generations in that particular service—and this is general throughout the whole of the transport undertakings of the country—the very wide spheres of skill there, ought to be used much more generally in the public interest, especially in times of emergency—and we have recognised the need for employing those resources fully during war time. It seems to me that if we take into account the labour and capital involved in the transport industry as a whole, there is a case for giving the Minister the power which would come from the acceptance of these Amendments. They appear minor in scope, but I believe that the use of these resources, which I have merely sketched because of the limitations of time—the skill, the resources of the plant within the transport industry—instead of being utilised to the full, is limited by the words "interests of national defence." I am sure that the interests of the nation would be best served if the Minister were given power—not direction, but power—in certain circumstances to widen the sphere of this Clause, so that the public interest could take precedence over the "interests of national defence."

I believe that that phrase is unnecessarily limiting in its application. I think the Minister might give consideration to the acceptance of the power that this Amendment would give him in the interests of the nation as a whole, so that the skill, experience, plant, labour and capital invested in the transport industry as a whole can be made available in the public interest, as the Amendment proposes.

Mr. H. Hynd

I beg to second the Amendment.

Perhaps the strongest arguments for this Amendment are the events we have witnessed during the last few days. We had a great national emergency, and the Prime Minister himself said that all the resources of the nation would be made available to tackle it. In future, there may well be similar national emergencies, although we hope there will not be, when the Transport Commission, with its vast resources of workshops, materials, manpower and skill, could be used in the national interest, as would be possible if the Amendment were accepted. If the narrower wording of "national defence" were left in the Bill, they might be prevented from doing so. In the light of the events of the last few days, I hope the Minister will look kindly on this Amendment.

8.30 p.m.

Mr. Mitchison

I venture to think that this Amendment is of considerable importance, and I hope the Minister will reconsider the rather narrow limits of the present subsection. As I understand. at present the Commission can engage in any activity which the Minister may from time to time think fit in the interests of national defence to authorise or direct them to engage in. Then we come to the limitations imposed by certain provisos, which are not to apply to any such activities. But then the Minister is not to authorise or direct unless he is satisfied as regards any form of activity falling within the scope of the limitations; that is, briefly speaking, that it cannot be done elsewhere.

The limitations in the Transport Act, 1947, are extremely wide, because they include the manufacture or production of anything which is not required for use for the purposes of the Commission's undertaking. They also include some other rather sweeping provisions, which perhaps it is unnecessary to refer to at the moment. The kind of thing I have in mind—and I take it only as an instance—is perhaps the most obvious of all, railway workshops. I cannot help feeling that there ought to be provision, at the Minister's discretion, for enabling the capacity of railway workshops to be used to the full. Speaking for myself, I would hardly expect the Minister to accept a provision of this sort unless he had the controlling power over it. But he is to have the controlling power, and on those terms I should like to know why be merely wishes to limit his authorisation or direction to the particular case of national defence.

I agree that the railway workshops could, no doubt, be usefully employed for the purposes of national defence if they were not fully occupied on strictly railway work, but I can also see that there are many other things on which they might usefully be employed. I think that the express limitation to national defence is itself very vague and uncertain. Suppose, for instance, to take a very simple sort of case, it were found that a large number of new bicycles were required for the Post Office. I can imagine that a thing of that sort might usefully be made in railway workshops, but why it should be impossible to make it for the Post Office and lawful to make the same bicycle for the Army passes my understanding. One can think of similar cases.

The object of the Clause must be, in the Minister's mind, to see that this manufacturing capacity in particular is fully occupied. He will perhaps wish, in any directions or authorisations he may make, to give priority to national defence, but why only to national defence? Suppose that for one reason or another the improvements that have been made in the railways mean that there is surplus capacity in the workshops, and suppose that at the moment it is not too easy to find jobs on national defence which the workshops can do. Surely it is only prudent for the Minister to give himself the opportunity to employ men in the railway workshops on work which would be really useful, instead of turning the men away. So much for the general purposes of the Clause. I repeat that the whole of this is subject to the Minister's authorisation or direction.

I turn to the limitation, and again I fail to see why it is necessary. The Minister is restricted to giving the Commission authority or directions to engage in any form of activity, unless he is satisfied that the work required cannot be carried out or cannot be carried out without serious risk of undue delay or of loss of efficiency. I do not know what "undue risk of loss of efficiency" may mean. It seems to me one of those somewhat turgid phrases which occasionally get into even the best considered legislation and have remarkably little meaning. I suppose it is intended to mean that the work cannot be done efficiently anywhere else. Why this restriction? I cannot see why the Minister's hands should be tied in this way.

Suppose the position is that the railway workshops must have more work to do and that if they are not given the orders they will have to turn their men away. Suppose that the Minister says that the work which can be placed with them can be done equally well by somebody else, who is at the moment pretty well employed. Let us even suppose that both rival manufacturers are equally in the position that if they do not get the orders they will have to turn men away.

In those circumstances the Minister of Transport ought to give the first preference to his own folk. He is the Minister of Transport and, as he told us the other day, the spokesman in this House for the Commission. He ought not to preclude himself in those circumstances from allowing work to be done by the railway workshops, even though it could equally well be done by somebody else, and though the social damage caused by the one order or the other would be exactly equal.

Surely if we reach that nice balance of consideration we are entitled to consider that the people concerned are public employees and that Ministers happen to be Tory Ministers. In the circumstances, they are surely entitled to give their own people and their employment some measure of priority, as a good employer would give in a similar case. I cannot understand the reasons for or the benefit of the proviso.

I make no apology for saying yet once more that I should have viewed the whole Clause differently and that I should expect the Minister to regard it differently, if it were not the case that in every instance there must be specific authority or directions. If there is to be that very powerful and wide limitation on it, I fail to see that it should be restricted to matters of national defence instead of the more general wording suggested by our Amendments. Equally, I fail to see any reasons for the proviso. I have taken the railway workshops as one instance, perhaps the most obvious one, but there must be a great many cases, probably much smaller ones, to which exactly the same considerations apply.

Major Sydney Markham (Buckingham)

I hope that the Minister will, approve of this Amendment because one of the gravest industrial tragedies in this country of the last two or three years has been our inability to make the fullest possible use of our railway workshops. I do not want to cross swords with hon. Members opposite on this question, but I must remind them that it was a Section of the nationalisation Act of 1947 which prohibited railways from doing anything outside their own requirements and which put the stopper on the railways playing their proper part not only in national defence under the rearmament scheme, but also—

Mr. H. Hynd

This side of the House was not responsible for that Section of the Act.

Mr. D. Jones

Would the hon. and gallant Gentleman allow me—

Major Markham

I can only answer one at a time. It was that side of the House which had an overwhelming Parliamentary majority at the time and had complete charge of the Act.

Mr. Hynd

There was another place—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

Order. I must remind the House that we are not in Committee.

Major Markham

May I put it this way? Hon. Members on both sides of the House realised with apprehension, between 12 and 15 months ago, that hundreds of railway workers up and down the country were being sacked. In my own constituency, at Wolverton, I was informed a year ago that 400 men were to be sacked because the railways could not take on any defence work or any work for the export trade and because the steel shortage had rendered their new rolling stock impossible. As the House knows, the matter was raised on the Adjournment and owing to the endeavours of the Ministry of Transport and the Transport Commission those dismissals were suspended and, owing to a rearrangement of work, the railway workshops have carried on without discharging a single man.

I realise that I am sailing near the line between what is in order and what is not in order by mentioning a specfiic case, so now I will refer to the Amendment. It gives the Minister power to direct not only that certain aspects of national defence work shall be carried on in railway workshops, but also some contract work for the export trade. It is on that aspect that I shall spend two minutes of the time of the House.

One astonishing aspect of the past few years has been the large number of overseas orders which our private railway undertakings have not been able successfully to compete for in world markets. According to the "British Gazette," during the last few years we have lost orders to the tune of nearly £100 million from Pakistan, India, Argentina and so on. There have been two main reasons, the principal of which has been the delay in delivery dates quoted by firms in this country contrasted with those of their European and American competitors. Those delivery dates could have been put forward considerably if the private railway workshops of this country could have called upon the workshops of British Railways to assist them. By this alone we could have solved the problem of expanding our export trade and keeping the men in the railway workshops at work and of improving the national economy.

I listened to the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) about the proviso. My private opinion of it is that it is absolute, unadulterated, unvarnished nonsense. There is no possibility of this, but if ever I were to be in the place of the Minister—

Mr. H. Hynd

The hon. and gallant Gentleman might be a P.P.S.

Major Markham

—and I were asked to decide whether work could be carried out anywhere without serious risk of undue delay or loss of efficiency, I should want to have the author of the Oxford Dictionary by my side to explain exactly what every word meant. It is an impossible Clause, and no Minister, faced with a Clause of this kind, could put his hand on his heart and say that he knew exactly what it was intended to do. Let us cut it out. It does not mean anything. Let us amend the Clause in the way that the hon. and learned Member for Kettering suggested, and bring a breath of fresh air into the railway workshops

8.45 p.m.

Mr. Braithwaite

We are all well aware of the great activity which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Major Markham) has displayed in this matter, and I well recall the Adjournment debate—I think it was nearly a year ago—when I had the opportunity and pleasure of replying from this Bench.

Mr. Callaghan

He had a Bill, too.

Mr. Braithwaite

Subsection (2) gives to the Commission opportunities from which they would otherwise have been debarred under Section 2 of the 1947 Act, which hon. Members opposite placed on the Statute Book.

The Commission are now being authorized, through the Minister, to engage in certain activities in connection with national defence, and the proviso to subsection (2) lays it down that the Minister should not authorise or direct the Commission to engage in any such activity unless he is satisfied that otherwise the work required in the interests of national defence cannot be carried out… As the hon. and learned Member for Kettering (Mr. Mitchison) reminded us, the proviso goes on to speak of powers to deal with undue delay or…loss of efficiency in that field of dealing with matters connected with national defence.

We are now asked to extend those activities into a wider field than those which are needed purely for the national defence programme and to include activities which are desirable in the public interest. which, of course, would include national defence if those words were to be accepted and inserted. This means, as I think has been made clear from the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite and by my hon. and gallant Friend, giving to the Transport Commission an opportunity of entering into the field of trading, manufacture and, indeed, of exports.

Mr. Callaghan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Braithwaite

That is what it would involve.

Mr. Mitchison

On the Minister's authority.

Mr. Braithwaite

I am coming to that; it is one of the chief difficulties in the matter. It would not, I suggest to the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. H. Hynd), enable them to do anything in the sort of situation with which we have been confronted in the last few days in the flooded areas—

Mr. Frederick Messer (Tottenham)

Why not?

Mr. Braithwaite

—because this deals with manufacture and the creation of things. From the long-term point of view, I suggest that it would not meet such a crisis as the floods.

Mr. Hynd

The Clause says "activities," not "manufacture."

Mr. Braithwaite

We are discussing making use of the Transport Commission's workshops.

Mr. Messer

Not only workshops.

Mr. Braithwaite

The debate has made it clear that what is required is manufacture, a remark which just now was cheered by hon. Gentlemen opposite.

Mr. Hargreaves

The Parliamentary Secretary is limiting the purpose of the Amendment to the words of the speech of his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Major Markham). If the Amendment were in the Bill, in an emergency such as the present one there would be available the services of surveyors, architects and building experts, and timber and things of that kind.

Mr. Braithwaite

At this stage I am speaking about manufacture. The point I was trying to make is that this would open, principally to the British Transport Commission, the field of manufacture, and give the Commission powers, as it can have under the defence programme, over plant and machinery at present only to be used for its own purposes and for its own use. That is the chief issue as I see it.

Mr. Ivor Owen Thomas (The Wrekin)

Would the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Braithwaite

I will give way later.

Mr. Charles Pannell (Leeds, West)

Is it fair for my hon. Friend to keep interrupting the Parliamentary Secretary so that he keeps losing his place?

Mr. Braithwaite

I think that that remark will be treated with the scorn it deserves. Hon. Members opposite always seem to think that there is some offence if one takes notes and endeavours to use them to reply to hon. Members opposite.

The point I make is that if we were to do what the Amendment asks in this field of using the plant and machinery of the Commission for purposes other than for their own use, it would place the Minister in the position of having to decide at what point the public interest would make it desirable for him to put this machinery into operation and that the Commission should undertake work of any particular kind—[Interruption.] I am trying to make a full and courteous reply to the points made and when hon. Members opposite, whether erect or sedentary—

Mr. Gibson

What does the hon. Gentleman mean by that?

Mr. Braithwaite

—standing up or sitting down.

They have pleaded the case with great eloquence that the Commission should have these opportunities provided by the Amendment. I have to inform the House that the Commission themselves have expressed no wish for any extension of their powers beyond that contemplated in the Clause as it stands. I think it is felt by all who have taken part in examining the problem—and I assure hon. Members opposite that it has been examined by my right hon. Friend with the same care as he has shown in all the other fields we have been discussing in this lengthy passage of the Bill—that it would be highly invidious to place any Minister, whatever his political colour, in this position. We believe that to be the main objection to the acceptance of the Amendment.

Mr. Mitchison

I did suggest a test that the Minister might apply in these cases and perhaps the hon. Gentleman would let us have his answer. The test was if it came to short time or no work at all and the sack for the men who are in the railway workshops now. That was the test I applied. I would not expect the Commission to ask for an extension, but I feel that perhaps the Minister would have some responsibility in the case of these men and would be glad to recognise it.

Mr. Braithwaite

Surely the short answer is that the invidious position of the Minister remains, because the situation which arose in the constituency of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham and at Eastleigh, in the vicinity of Southampton, was due to a shortage of materials. The allocation of steel to the Commission, over the use of which they had full control, made it impossible for them to proceed with work in the shops dealing with rolling stock, but they had to concentrate supplies on improvements to the permanent way and to wagons. That was where the Commission themselves placed their steel allocation. So, with the best will in the world, my right hon. Friend would have been in a more invidious position had he, at that time, been called on to make that decision.

We were able to do something for the railway workers. The Minister of Supply did alleviate the position to a certain extent. But to put a Minister of whatever Government or political colour, in that position is something too invidious for the House to contemplate. As the materials position improves, so there will be work for all in the workshops. These programmes will go ahead. There is a backlog accumulating in the case of passenger rolling stock and in other directions, and it is to this consideration that we have to give careful consideration today. That is why this proposal cannot be accepted.

Major Markham

May I ask for a little further information about this? Apparently the wishes of the present Commission ride higher than the expressed wish of Parliament, and I think that on this very important matter the Ministry should make up their mind. Is the Minister aware that under Defence Regulation 55A his predecessor made exactly these decisions we are asking him to make and they were never questioned?

Mr. Callaghan

I can well understand the irritation of my hon. Friends at the reply of the Government. I wish we were not operating under the Guillotine, so that the Parliamentary Secretary could be torn asunder in the way he deserves to be for his reply. I can only endeavour to crystallise the emotions of my hon. Friends in a few short, sharp sentences before we show in the Division Lobby the scorn we feel for that reply.

When we strip away the hesitation and verbiage of the Parliamentary Secretary it is revealed that private enterprise railway workshops who manufacture rolling stock are invincibly opposed to the railway workshops ever entering into competition with them at all—

Major Markham

That is not true.

Mr. Callaghan

I may be told that that is not true, in which case I can only say—

Major Markham

That just is not true—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

Order. The hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Major Markham) cannot intervene unless the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) gives way.

Mr. Callaghan

I can only say that the private enterprise workshops have changed their minds since they wrote to me protesting against the Private Bill of the hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham (Major Markham) 12 months ago. I supported his Bill then, and I received letters from the private enterprise railway workshops asking me and my hon. Friends to oppose the Bill which had this object in mind. The hon. and gallant Member for Buckingham knows that this is the case, and he knows that we all agreed with his Bill as it stood.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Government are being quite consistent in their attitude. The Parliamentary Secretary used the neutral phrase that we placed the 1947 Act on the Statute Book. That might lead the uninitiated to assume that we were in favour of the British Transport Commission not having these powers. If the Parliamentary Secretary had proceeded further with his researches, or had conveyed them to the House, he would have said that it was the speeches of his hon. Friends in this House and in another place—

Mr. D. Jones

And of himself.

Mr. Callaghan

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I was not aware of that particular sin on the part of the Parliamentary Secretary. But it was certainly the Tories who, in their speeches, insisted on a limitation of the Commission's powers. Now they are being consistent, because they still want them to be limited, and the Commission to be restricted in the work they can do in the public interest.

They have widened it to the narrow extent of saying that they can do work which concerns national defence. I am not surprised at their attitude. I am never surprised when the Tory Party refuses to acknowledge the public interest, or to take any decision in the public

interest. Because of that we shall, as soon as we are able, divide the House in order to test the sincerity of those hon. Gentlemen opposite who prate about the public interest and support their private friends.

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

I had not intended to intervene because I thought that before the Guillotine fell we were all anxious to have a few words on Clauses 26 and 27 which refer to pensions and compensation.

Mr. Callaghan

That is after 9.30.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd

The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The Guillotine falls at 9.30 when we shall leave those Clauses, so I will not make the speech which otherwise I would have made.

However, I should not like the House or the public to think that the speech which the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has made is in any way a fair representation of either what happened in 1947 or what is happening now, or a fair reference to the help given by the private manufacturers to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Buckingham (Major Markham), when he was drawing up his Bill. I think that the hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East might have used his few precious moments in a slightly more creditable fashion.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 244 Noes, 229.

Division No. 81.] AYES [9.2 p.m.
Aitken, W. T. Black, C. W. Cole, Norman
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Boothby, R. J G. Colegate, W. A.
Alport, C. J. M. Bossom, A C. Conant, Maj. R. J. E.
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Bowen, E. R. Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Boyle, Sir Edward Cranborne, Viscount
Arbuthnot, John Braine, B. R Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Braithwaite, Lt.-Cmdr. G. (Bristol N.W.) Crouch, R. F.
Astor, Hon. J. J. Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M Browne, Jack (Govan) Crowder, Petre (Ruislip-Northwood)
Baldwin, A. E. Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)
Barber, Anthony Bullard, D. G. Davidson, Viscountess
Barlow, Sir John Bullock, Capt. M. Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)
Baxter, A. B. Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. Deedes, W. F.
Beach, Maj. Hicks Burden, F. F. A. Digby, S. Wingfield
Beamish, Maj. Tufton Butcher, Sir Herbert Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Campbell, Sir David Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Carr, Robert Donner, P. W.
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Carson, Hon. E. Doughty, C. J. A.
Bennett. Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Cary, Sir Robert Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm
Bevins, J. R. (T[...]xteth) Channon, H. Drayson, G. B.
Birch, Nigel Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Drewe, C.
Bishop, F. P. Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth. W.) Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond)
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. Rayner, Brig. R.
Duthie, W. S. Keeling, Sir Edward Radmayne, M.
Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M. Lambert, Hon. G. Remnant, Hon. P.
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Lambton, Viscount Renton, D. L. M.
Erroll, F. J. Lancaster, Col. C. G. Roberts, Peter (Heeley)
Fell, A. Langford-Holt, J. A. Robertson, Sir David
Finlay, Graeme Leather, E. H. C. Robinson, Rotand (Blackpool, S.)
Fisher, Nigel Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F Legh, P. R. (Petersfield) Roper, Sir Harold
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Fort, R. Linstead, H. N. Russell, R. S.
Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Llewellyn, D. T. Ryder, Capt. R E. D.
Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell Lloyd, Rt. Hon. G. (King's Norton) Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas
Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)
Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Low, A. R. W. Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Gammans, L. D. Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Garner-Evans, E. H. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)
Glyn, Sir Ralph Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Soames, Capt. C.
Godber, J. B. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Spearman, A. C. M.
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Macdonald, Sir Peter Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)
Gough, C. F. H. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Gower, H. R. Maclean, Fitzroy Stevens, G. P.
Graham, Sir Fergus Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Stewart, Henderson, (Fife, E.)
Gridley, Sir Arnold MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Stoddart-Scott, Col M
Grimond, J. Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Storey, S.
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)
Hall, John (Wycombe) Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Harden, J. R. E. Marlowe, A. A. H. Studholme, H. G.
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Marples, A. E. Summers, G. S.
Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Maude, Angus Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)
Harvey, Air Cdre A. V. (Macclesfield) Medlicott, Brig. F. Teeling, W.
Harvie-Watt, Sir George Mellor, Sir John Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Hay, John Molson, A. H. E Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N
Heald, Sir Lionel Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas Tilney, John
Heath, Edward Morrison, John (Salisbury) Touche, Sir Gordon
Higgs, J. M. C. Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Turner, H. F. L.
Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Nabarro, G. D. N. Turton, R. H.
H[...], Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Nicholls, Harmar Tweedsmuir, Lady
Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Vane, W. M. F
Hirst, Geoffrey Nicolscn, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Vosper, D. F.
Holland-Martin, C. J. Noble, Cmdr. A H. P. Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Hollis, M. G Nutting, Anthony Walker-Smith, D. C.
Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) Odey, G. W. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Holt, A. F. O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C.
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Watkinson, H. A.
Horobin, I. M. Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminster)
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Osborne C. Wellwood, W.
Howard, Greville (St. Ives) Peake, Rt. Hon. O. Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Perkins, W. R. D. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Hurd, A. R. Peyton, J. W. W. Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) Pickthorn, K. W. M. Wills, G.
Hutchison, James (S[...]otstoun) Pilkington, Capt. R. A. Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Pitman, I J. Wood, Hon. R.
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Powell, J. Enoch York, C.
Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jones, A. (Hall Green) Profumo, J. D. Mr. Kaberry and
Raikes, Sir Victor Mr. R. Thompson.
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard Brockway, A. F. Deer, G.
Adams, Richard Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Delargy, H. J.
Albu, A. H. Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Dodds, N. N.
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Burton, Miss F E Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Awbery, S. S. Callaghan, L. J. Edelman, M.
Bacon, Miss Alice Carmichael, J. Edwards, John (Brighouse)
Baird, J. Chapman, W. D. Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)
Balfour, A. Chetwynd, G. R. Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A J. Clunie, J. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)
Bartley, P. Coldrick, W. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)
Bence, C. R. Collick, P. H. Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)
Benn, Wedgwood Corbet, Mrs. Freda Ewart, R.
Benson, G. Cove, W. G. Fernyhough, W
Beswick, F. Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Fienburgh, W
Bing, G. H. C Crosland, C. A R. Finch, H. J.
Blackburn, F. Crossman, R. H S Follick, M.
Blenkinsop, A. Cu'len, Mrs. A. Foot, M. M.
Blyton, W. R. Daines, P Forman, J. C.
Boardman, H Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)
Bowden, H. W Darling, George (Hillsborough) Freeman, John (Watford)
Bowles, F G. Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N.
Gibson, C. W. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. McNeill, Rt. Hon. H. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Slater, J.
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield) Mainwaring, W. H. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llan[...]Ily) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Sorensen, R. W.
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Mann, Mrs. Jean Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Hale, Leslie Manuel, A. C. Sparks, J. A.
Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Mayhew, C P. Steele, T.
Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Mellish, R. J. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Hamilton, W. W. Messer, F Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E
Hannan, W. Mitchison, G. R. Swingler, S. T
Hardy, E. A. Monslow, W Sylvester, G. O.
Hargreaves, A. Moody, A. S. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Morley, R. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Hastings, S. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)
Hayman, F. H. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Thomas, David (Aberdare)
Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Moyle, A. Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Herbison, Miss M. Mulley, F. W Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Hobson, C. R. Nally, W. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Holman, P. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Houghton, Douglas Oldfield, W. H. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Oliver, G. H. Thurtle, Ernest
Hughes, Cledwyn (Anglesey) Orbach, M. Tomney F.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Oswald, T. Turner-Samuels, M.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Padley, W. E. Ungoed-Thomas. Sir Lynn
Hynd, H. (Accrington) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) Viant, S. P.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Wallace, H. W.
Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Palmer, A. M. F Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Pannell, Charles Wells, William (Walsall)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon G. A Pargiter, G. A. West, D. G.
Janner, B Parker, J. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T Paton, J. Wheeldon, W. E
Jager, George (Goole) Plummer, Sir Leslie White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Popplewell, E White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Johnson, James (Rugby) Porter, G. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Jones, David (Hartlepool) Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton) Wigg, George
Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B
Jones, T W. (Merioneth) Proctor, W T. Wilkins, W. A.
Keenan, W Pryde, D. J Williams, David (Neath)
Kenyon, C. Pursey, Cmdr H. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Key, Rt. Hon. C W Reeves, J. Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
King, Dr. H. M Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Kinley, J. Reid, William (Camlachie) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Lee, Frederick (Newton) Rhodes, H. Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Richards, R. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Lewis, Arthur Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Lindgren, G. S. Roberts Albert (Normanton) Woodburn, Rt Hon. A.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Wyatt, W. L.
MacColl, J. E. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Yates, V. F.
McGhee, H. G. Ross, William Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
McGovern, J Shackleton, E. A. A.
McInnes, J. Short, E. W TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
McLeavy, F. Shurmer, P. L. E Mr. Pearson and Mr. A. Allen
Silverman, Julius (Erdington)
Mr. Callaghan

I beg to move, in page 34, to leave out lines 16 to 21.

Mr. Ernest Davies

I beg to second the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes. 242; Noes, 228.

Division No. 82.] AYES 9.15 p.m.
Aitken, W. T. Bishop, F. P Cary, Sir Robert
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Black, C W Channon, H
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Boothby, R. J G Clarke, Cal. Ralph (East Grinstead)
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Bossom, A C Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.)
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J Bowen, E. R. Cole, Norman
Arbuthnot, John Boyd-Carpenter, J. A Colegate, W. A.
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) Boyle, Sir Edward Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert
Astor, Hon. J. J. Braise, B. R. Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M Braithwai[...]e. Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.) Cranborne, Viscount
Baldwin A E Brooke Henry (Hampstead) Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. G.
Barber, Anthony Browne, Jack (Govan) Crouch, R. F.
Barlow, Sir John Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P G. T Crowder, Sir John (Finchley)
Baxter, A. B. Bullard, D. G. Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)
Beach, Maj. Hicks Bullock, Capt. M Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.)
Beamish. Maj. Tufton Bullus, Wing Commander E. E Davidson, Viscountess
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Burden, F. F. A. Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery)
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Butcher, Sir Herbert Deedes, W. F.
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Campbell, Sir David Digby, S. Wingfield
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Carr, Robert Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Birch, Nigel Carson, Hon. E. Donaldson. Cmdr. C. E. McA.
Donner, P. W. Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Raikes, Sir Victor
Doughty, C. J. A. Jones, A. (Hall Green) Rayner, Brig. R.
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W Redmayne, M.
Drayson, G. B. Keeling, Sir Edward Remnant, Hon. P
Drewe, C Lambert, Hon. G. Renton, D. L. M.
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. Sir T. (Richmond) Lambton, Viscount Roberts, Peter (Heeley)
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Lancaster, Col. C. G Robertson Sir David
Duthie, W. S. Langford-Holt, J. A. Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Elliot, Rt. Hon W. E Leather, E. H. C. Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Erroll, F. J. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Roper, Sir Harold
Fell, A. Legh, P. R. (Petersfield) Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Finlay, Graeme Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T. Russell, R. S.
Fisher, Nigel Linstead, H. N Ryder, Capt. R. E. D.
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Llewellyn, D T Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Lloyd, Rt Hon. G. (King's Norton) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)
Fort, R. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Low, A. R. W. Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)
Galbraith, Rt. Hon. T. D. (Pollok) Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Soames, Capt. C.
Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Spearman, A. C. M.
Gammans, L. D. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Spans, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.)
Garner-Evans, E. H. Macdonald, Sir Peter Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Glyn, Sir Ralph McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Stevens, G. P.
Godber, J. B. Maclean, Fitzroy Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Gough, C. F. H. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Storey, S.
Gower, H. R. Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.)
Graham, Sir Fergus Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Gridley, Sir Arnold Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Studholme, H. G.
Grimond, J. Markham, Major S. F. Summers, G. S.
Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) Marlowe, A. A. H. Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)
Hall, John (Wycombe) Marples, A. E. Teeling, W.
Harden, J. R. E. Maude, Angus Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Medlicott, Brig. F Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon. W.)
Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Mellor, Sir John Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N
Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) Melson, A. H. E. Tilney, John
Harvie-Watt, Sir George Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas Touche, Sir Gordon
Hay, John Morrison, John (Salisbury) Turner, H. F. L
Heald, Sir Lionel Mott-Radclyfle, C. E. Turton, R. H.
Heath, Edward Nabarro, G. D. N. Tweedsmuir, Lady
Higgs, J. M. C. Nicholls, Harmer Vane, W. M. F.
Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham) Vosper, D. F.
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshaw[...]) Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Noble, Cmdr, A. H. P Walker-Smith, D. C.
Hirst, Geoffrey Nutting, Anthony Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Holland-Martin, C. J. Odey, G. W. Ward, Miss I. (Tynemouth)
Hollis, M. C. O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.) Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C
Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. Watkinson, H. A.
Holt, A. F. Orr, Capt. L. P. S. Webbe, Sir H.(London & Westminster)
Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) Wellwood, W.
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Osborne, C. Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay)
Horobin, I. M. Peake, Rt. Hon. O Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Perkins, W R. D Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.)
Howard, Greville (St. Ives) Peto, Brig. C. H. M Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Peyton, J. W. W. Wills, G.
Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) Pickthorn, K. W. M Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)
Hurd, A. R. Pilkington, Capt. R. A. Wood, Hon. R
Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) Pitman, I. J York, C.
Hutchison, James (Scotstoun) Powell, J. Enoch
Hylton-Foster, H. B. H. Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L. Mr. Conant and Mr. Kaberry.
Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Profumo, J. D.
NOES
Acland, Sir Richard Bowles, F. G. Darling, George (Hillsborough)
Adams, Richard Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Albu, A. H. Brockway, A. F. Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Deer, G.
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Delargy, H. J.
Awbery, S. S. Burton, Miss F. E. Dodds, N. N.
Bacon, Miss Alice Butler, Herbert (Ha[...]kney, S.) Dugdale, RI. Hon. John (W. Bromwich)
Baird, J. Callaghan, L. J. Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Balfour, A. Carmichael, J. Edelman, M.
Barnes, At. Hon. A. J. Chapman, W. D Edwards, John (Brighouse)
Bartley, P. Chetwynd, G. R Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)
Bence. C. R. Clunie, J. Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)
Bann, Wedgwood Coldrick, W. Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)
Benson. G. Collick, P. H. Evans, Edward (Lowestoft)
Beswick, F. Corbet, Mrs. Freda Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury)
Bing, G. H. C. Cove, W. G. Ewart, R.
Blackburn, F. Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Fernyhough, E.
Blenkinsop, A. Crosland, C. A. R. Fienburgh, W.
Blyton, W. R. Crossman, R. H. S. Finch, H. J.
Boardman, H. Cullen, Mrs, A. Follick, M.
Bowden, H. W. Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Foot, M. M.
Forman, J. C. McInnes, J. Shurmer, P. L. E.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) McLeavy, F. Silverman, Julius (Erdington)
Freeman, John (Watford) MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Freeman, Peter (Newport) McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Slater, J.
Gibson, C. W. Mainwaring, W. H. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigs) Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Sorensen, R. W.
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield) Mann, Mrs. Jean Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R. Manuel, A. C. Sparks, J. A.
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) Mayhew, C P. Steele, T.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (LlanaIly) Mellish, R. J. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J
Griffiths, William (Exchange) Messer, F. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Hale, Leslie Mitchison, G. R. Swingler, S. T.
Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Monslow, W. Sylvester, G. O.
Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Moody, A. S. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Hamilton, W. W. Morley, R. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Hannan, W. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpe[...]h)
Hardy, E. A. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Thomas, David (Aberdare)
Hargreaves, A. Moyle, A. Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Mulley, F. W. Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W)
Hastings, S. Nally, W. Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Hayman, F. H. Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Oldfield, W. H. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Herbison, Miss M Oliver, G. H. Thurtle, Ernest
Hobson, C. R. Orbach, M. Tomney, F.
Holman, P. Oswald, T. Turner-Samuels, M.
Houghton, Douglas Padley, W. E. Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Paget, R. T. Viant, S. P.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley) Wallace, H. W.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Hynd, H. (Accrington) Palmer, A. M. F. Wells, William (Walsall)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Pannell, Charles West, D. G.
Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Pargiter, G. A. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John
Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Parker, J. Wheeldon, W. E.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Paton, J. White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Janner, B. Plummer, Sir Leslie White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Popplewell, E Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Jeger, George (Goole) Porter, G. Wigg, George
Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughon) Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B.
Johnson, James (Rugby) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) Wilkins, W. A
Jones, David (Hartlepool) Proctor, W. T. Williams, David (Neath)
Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Pryde, D. J. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Pursey, Cmdr H Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Keenan, W. Reeves, J. Williams, W. R. (Droylsden)
Kenyon, C. Reid, Thomas (Swindon) Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.)
Key, Rt. Hon C W Reid, William (Camlachie) Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)
King, Dr. H. M. Rhodes, H. Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.)
Lee, Frederick (Newton) Richards, R. Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside)
Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Robens, Rt. Hon. A. Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Lewis, Arthur Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Wyatt, W. L.
Lindgren, G. S. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon) Yates, V. F
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) Younger, Rt Hon K
MacColl, J. E. Ross, William
McGhee, H. G. Shackleton, E. A. A TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
McGovern, J Short. E. W. Mr. Pearson and Mr. Allen.
Mr. Hylton-Foster (York)

I beg to move, in page 34, line 21, at the end, to insert: (3) Where one of the activities mentioned in subsection (3) of section two of the Transport Act, 1947 (which relates to the carrying on by the Commission of the activities of undertakings acquired by them), was the provision of a garage for the passengers of the undertaking and for other persons making use of the services of the undertaking, the Commission shall have power notwithstanding anything contained in this Act or in the Transport Act, 1947, for the purpose of any garage so provided to maintain and repair and to purchase and supply spare parts, accessories, petrol and oil for the vehicles of their passengers and of such other persons. This is another effort to free the railways from the fetters which make trading difficult for them. The Amendment contains a lot of words, but all it adds up to is this: In the old days before nationalisation there was a railway garage, situated on railway property and run in conjunction with the railway hotel, which was a great convenience to the customers of the hotel and served a greater purpose than that of a garage because it was a kind of passenger railhead. One got out of one's farm wagon, put one's vehicle in the garage and travelled by main-line train to London or to some other city. It served a dual railway purpose.

That was in the gay old days before nationalisation. But when the undertaking was vested in the Commission—and I would indicate that I desire to have the judgment of this House and not of the Commission on my Amendment— under the terms of the 1947 Act that garage, after three years had elapsed from vesting day, could no longer give a full garage service. It was stopped by law from giving the service which a decent garage gives—mending one's car, supplying one with petrol and oil, and supplying the odd spare bulb for one's light. The garage was prevented from doing all those things by the Act of 1947.

I venture to submit to the House that that is not very sensible if our wish is that proper railway activities should be conducted by the railways unfettered, in order that they may have a free trading position in this matter for their railway purposes. For the benefit of those hon. Members opposite who become particularly savage at any reference to an extension of State trading, may I say that that is not at all what the Amendment seeks to achieve? I apologise to the House for the home-made nature of the drafting and I hope that if the principle finds favour with the House and the Minister, then the Minister, with the resources available to him, will find the right form of words.

What it is meant to mean is that where, before nationalisation, there was a railway garage run by the railway, or where, since that time, the railways have taken over a garage pursuant to the powers conferred upon them by this House, then this House will let them conduct an ordinary, normal garage service at the garage. Why on earth should they not do so?

Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke (Darwen)

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. Braithwaite

I trust that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York (Mr. Hylton-Foster) will not think me discourteous if my reply is somewhat telegraphic in character. The 1947 Act made it quite clear that the British Transport Commission's Hotels Executive were not to engage in trade outside their normal functions or to conduct their garage business. I agree at once with my hon and learned Friend that it would be a great benefit to those using the hotel in York—and I think I know the hotel he has in mind—were it possible for them to have these facilities.

It is not our view, however, that the British Transport Commission should extend their trading activities in this way. Nonetheless, I feel that there is a solution to my hon. and learned Friend's difficulty—namely, that the Hotels Executive should lease the garage to a private enterprise proprietor who will be able to provide the facilities which my hon. and learned Friend has in mind. The Hotels Executive would have the revenue from the letting of this property with which to support their finances, and all would be well. I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.

Mr. H. Morrison

I admit that we were rather caught bending in the way in which apparently some Amendment was accepted in 1947 but I am bound to say that, having listened to the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Hylton-Foster) and to the hon. Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke)—the Seconder did not say very much—I cannot see any rational objection to the suggestion that a hotel—I do not care whether it is a Transport Commission hotel or whose it is—which has a garage in connection with the hotel—which is quite common—should use the garage for incidental repairs to cars which are left there. That is not only desirable as a matter of business for the hotel but is desirable for the convenience of the people staying at the hotel.

I have not the least idea why these words crept into the Act of 1947. I do not know where I was at the time—perhaps I was in Hammersmith Hospital or somewhere—but I am not criticising anybody I just cannot understand it. In any event, if I were converted the other way in 1947, I am converted this way now by the hon. and learned Member for York. I hope the Minister will pop up to say that he accepts the Amendment. If not, I hope that the two hon. Members who moved it and such of their friends as will support them will vote for the Amendment, because it is no good moving an Amendment and then running away. It is a very innocent Amendment and I very much hope that the House will be good enough to agree to it.

Mr. Powell

I intervene in these last 60 seconds before 9.30 because I hope that the railwaymen of this country will know that the Opposition have twice divided on the same point in order to prevent my right hon. Friend from explaining to them and to the country the improved conditions of compensation which he intends to make under this Bill. I think it is only right that railwaymen should realise that that is the attitude of their soi-disant friends.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided; Ayes, 233; Noes, 250.

Division No. 83.] AYES [9.30 p.m.
Acland, Sir Richard Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)
Adams, Richard Griffiths, William (Exchange) Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Albu, A. H. Hale, Leslie Palmer, A M. F.
Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) Pannell, Charles
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) Hall, John T. (Gateshead, W.) Pargiter, G. A
Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) Hamilton, W. W. Parker, J
Awbery, S. S. Hannan, W. Paton, J.
Bacon, Miss Alice Hardy, E. A. Pearson, A.
Baird, J. Hargreaves, A. Plummer, Sir Leslie
Balfour, A. Harrison, J. (Nottingham, E.) Popplewell, E.
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. Hastings, S. Porter, G.
Bartley, P. Hayman, F. H. Price, Joseph T. (Westhoughton)
Bence, C. R. Healey, Denis (Leeds, S.E.) Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)
Benn, Wedgwood Herbison, Miss M. Proctor, W. T.
Benson, G. Hobson, C. [...]. Pryde, D. J.
Beswick, F. Holman, P. Pursey, Cmdr. H
Bing, G. H. C. Houghton, Douglas Reeves, J.
Blackburn, F. Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) Reid, Thomas (Swindon)
Blenkinsop, A. Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) Reid, William (Camlachie)
Blyton, W. R. Hughes Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Rhodes, H.
Boardman, H. Hynd, H. (Accrington) Richards, R.
Bowles, F. G. Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Robens, Rt. Hon. A.
Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Brockway, A. F. Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Brook, Dryden (Halifax) Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. Janner, B. Ross, William
Burton, Miss F. E. Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T. Shackleton, E. A. A.
Butler, Herbert (Hackney S.) Jeger, George (Goole) Short, E. W
Callaghan, L. J. Jenkins, R. H. (Stechford) Shurmer, P. L. E.
Carmichael, J. Johnson, James (Rugby) Silverman, Julius (Erdington)
Chapman, W. D. Jones, David (Hartlepool) Silverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Chetwynd, G R Jones, Jack (Rotherham) Simmons, C. J. (Brierley Hill)
Clunie, J. Jones, T. W. (Merioneth) Slater, J.
Coldrick, W. Keenan, W. Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.)
Collick, P. H. Kenyon, C Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.)
Corbet, Mrs. Freda Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Sorensen, R. W.
Cove, W. G. King, Dr. H. M. Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) Lee, Frederick (Newton) Sparks, J. A
Crosland, C. A. R. Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) Steele, T
Crossman, R. H. S. Lewis, Arthur Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)
Cullen, Mrs. A Lindgren, G. S. Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall)
Darling, George (Hillsborough) MacColl, J. E. Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.) McGhee, H. G. Swingler, S. T.
Davies, Stephen (Merthyr) McGovern, G. Sylvester, G. O.
Deer, G. McInnes, J. Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Delargy, H. J McLeavy, F. Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Dodds, N. N. MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Taylor, Rt. Hon. Robert (Morpeth)
Donnelly, D. L. McNeill, Rt. Hon. H. Thomas, David (Aberdare)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Mainwaring, W. H. Thomas, lorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Edelman, M. Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin)
Edwards, John (Brighouse) Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) Thomson, George (Dundee, E.)
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) Mann, Mrs. Jean Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) Manuel, A. C. Thurtle, Ernest
Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.) Mayhew, C. P. Tomney, F.
Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) Mellish, R. J Turner-Samuels, M
Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) Messer, F Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn
Ewart, R. Mitchison, G. R Viant, S. P.
Fernyhough, E. Monslow, W. Weitzman, D.
Fienburgh, W. Moody, A. S. Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Finch, H. J. Morley, R. Wells, William (Walsall)
Follick, M. Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) West, D. G.
Foot, M. M. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, S.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. John
Forman, J. C. Moyle, A. Wheeldon, W E.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) Mulley, F. W White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Freeman, John (Watford) Nally, W. White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Freeman, Peter (Newport) Neal, Harold (Bolsover) Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. OldfieId, W. H. Wigg, George
Gibson, C. W. Oliver, G. H. Wilcock, Group Capt. C A B
Glanville, James Orbach, M. Wilkins, W. A.
Gordon Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. Oswald, T. Williams, David (Neath)
Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) Padley, W. E. Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery)
Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Arthur (Wakefield) Paget, R. T. Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)
Williams, W. R. (Droylsden) Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) Younger, Rt. Hon. K
Williams, W. T. (Hammersmith, S.) Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A
Wilson, Rt. Hon Harold (Huyton) Wyatt, W. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) Yates, V. F. Mr. Bowden and Mr. Wallace.
NOES
Aitken, W. T. Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) Maude, Angus
Allan, R. A. (Paddington, S.) Fyfe, Rt. HOPI. Sir David Maxwell Medlicott, Brig. F
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) Galbraith, Rt. Han. T. D. (Pollok) Mellor, Sir John
Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) Molson, A. H. E
Anstruther-Gray, Major W. J. Gammans, L. D. Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir Thomas
Arbuth[...]ot, John Garner-Evans, E. H. Morrison, John (Salisbury)
Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) George, Rt. Hon. Maj. G. Lloyd Mott-Radclyffe, C. E.
Astor, Hon. J. J. Glyn, Sir Ralph Nabarro, G. D. N
Baker, P. A. D. Godber, J. B. Nicholls, Harma[...]
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M Gomme-Duncan, Col A Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)
Baldwin, A. E Gough, C. F. H Nicolson, Nigel (Bournemouth, E.)
Barber, Anthony Gower, H. R. Nield, Basil (Chester)
Barlow, Sir John Graham, Sir Fergus Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P
Baxter, A. B. Gridley, Sir Arnold Nutting, Anthony
Beach, Maj. Hicks Grimond, J. Odey, G. W.
Beamish, Maj. Turton Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) O'Neill, Phelim (Co. Antrim. N.)
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.) Hall, John (Wycombe) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D.
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.) Harden, J. R. E. Orr, Capt. L. P. S.
Bennett, Sir Peter (Edgbaston) Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) Harrison, Col. J. H. (Eye) Osborne. C.
Birch, Nigel Harvey, Air Cdr A. V. (Macclesfield) Peaks, Rt. Hon. O.
Bishop, F. P. Harvie-Watt, Sir George Perkins, W. R. D.
Black, C. W. Hay, John Peto, Brig. C. H. M
Boothby, R. J. G. Heald, Sir Lionel Peyton, J. W W.
Bossom, A. C. Heath, Edward Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Bowen, E. R. Higgs, J. M. C. Pilkington, Capt. R. A
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) Pitman, I. J.
Boyle, Sir Edward Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) Powell, J. Enoch
Brains, B. R. Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Cdr. G. (Bristol, N.W.) Hirst, Geoffrey Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) Holland-Martin, C. J. Profumo, J. D.
Browns, Jack (Govan) Hollis, M. G. Raikes, Sir Victor
Buchan-Hepburn, Rt. Hon. P. G. T. Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) Rayner, Brig. R.
Bullard, D. G. Holt, A. F. Redmayne, M.
Bullock, Capt. M. Hopkinson, Rt. Hon. Henry Remnant, Hon. P.
Bullus, Wing Commander E. E Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P. Renton, D. L. M.
Burden, F. F. A. Horobin, I. M. Roberts, Peter (Heeley)
Butcher, Sir Herbert Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence Robertson, Sir David
Campbell, Sir David Howard, Greville (St. Ives) Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.)
Carr, Robert Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks)
Carson, Hon. E. Hurd, A. R. Roper, Sir Harold
Cary, Sir Robert Hutchison, LL-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) Roomer, Col. Sir Leonard
Channon, H. Hutchison, James (Soetstoun) Russell, R. S
Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) Hyde, Lt.-Col H. M. Ryder, Capt. R. E. D
Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) Hylton-Foster, H. B. H Sandys, Rt. Hon. D.
Cole, Norman Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich) Savory, Prof. Sir Douglas
Colegate, W. A. Johnson, Eric (Blackley) Schofield, Lt.-Col. W. (Rochdale)
Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) Soott, R. Donald
Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert Jones, A. (Hall Green) Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L W Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Cranborne, Viscount Keeling, Sir Edward Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood)
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C Lambert, Col. G Soames, Capt. C.
Crouch, R. F. Lambton, Viscount Spearman, A. C. M.
Crowder, Sir John (Finchley) Lancaster, Col. C. G. Spent, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S_)
Crowder, [...]etre (Ruislip—Northwood) Langford-Holt, J. A. Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) Leather, E. H. C. Stevens, G. P.
Davidson, Viscountess Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) Legh, P. R. (Petersfield) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Deedes, W. F. Lennox-Boyd, Rt. Hon. A. T Storey, S.
Digby, S. Wingfield Linstead, H. N. Strauss, Henry (Norwich. S.)
Dodds-Parker, A B. Llewellyn, D. T. Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA. Lloyd, Rt. Hon. C. (King's Norton) Studholme, H. G.
Donner, P. W. Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. Summers, G. S.
Doughty, C. J. A. Low, A. R. W. Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) Teeling, W.
Drayson, G. B. Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) Thompson, Kenneth (Walton)
Drewe, C. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Thompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, W.)
Dugdale, Rt. Hon Sir T. (Richmond) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N.
Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight) Tilney, John
Duthie, W. S. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Touche, Sir Gordon
Eccles, Rt. Hon. D. M. Maclean, Fitzroy Turner, H. F. L
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Macleod, Rt. Hon. lain (Enfield, W.) Turton, R. H
Erroll, F. J. MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) Tweedsmuir, Lady
Fell, A. Macpherson, Niall (Dumfries) Vane, W. M. F.
Finlay, Graeme Maitland, Patrick (Lanark) Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)
Fisher, Nigel Manningham-Buller, Sir R. E. Walker-Smith, D. C.
Fleetwood-Hesketh, R. F. Markham, Major S. F. Ward, Hon. George (Worcester)
Fletcher-Cooke, C. Marlowe, A. A. H. Ward, Miss l. (Tynemouth)
Fort, R. Marptes, A. E.
Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) Wood, Hon. R.
Watkinson, H. A. Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) York, C.
Webbe, Sir H. (London & Westminstet) Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Wellwood, W. Wills, G. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Williams, Rt. Hon. Charles (Torquay) Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) Mr. Vosper and Mr. Kaberry.

Question put, and agreed to.

It being after Half-past Nine o'Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to Orders, to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by a Member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at Half-past Nine o'Clock.