§ Mr. Assheton (Blackburn, West)I beg to move, in page 16, line 16, at the end, to add:
(6) Nothing in this section shall impose on any bank the obligation to disclose any particulars relating to payments of interest without deduction of tax in cases where the person beneficially entitled to the income is not resident in the United Kingdom.It may be that this is the last Clause we shall discuss today, and I am not at all anxious to detain the Committee unnecessarily. The Amendment is an important one. It is also an Amendment to a dangerous Clause which we on this side of the Committee fear will do more harm than good. But I do not propose to deal with the merits of the Clause itself 1579 because we shall be discussing that shortly when we come to the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."The banks have, as hon. Members know, very large sums of money deposited with them by foreigners and by non-residents in the United Kingdom, and these depositors have often been given assurances by the bankers in all good faith that their accounts will not be likely to be submitted to any investigation. Depositors have relied upon the traditional secrecy of our banking system and, in consequence, a great international business has been built up in the City of London.
Although this Amendment may, it might be suggested, introduce an illogicality into the structure of the Clause, it is justifiable for the reason I have just given, and in order to encourage foreigners and other non-residents to continue their practice of using the banking facilities of this country. That is a matter of first importance not only to the City of London but also to the country.
Happily, there is a precedent in Section 18 of the 1939 Finance Act, which deals with the disclosure of securities. Subsection (5) concedes an exception to foreign depositors and non-resident depositors. Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to follow that precedent and to accept this Amendment which would limit considerably the damage which this Clause might do.
§ 9.45 a.m.
§ Mr. Eric Fletcher (Islington, East)I apologise for intervening from these benches even if only for a few minutes, although it is a long time since anybody on this side of the Committee has taken part in the debate. I gather from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that hon. Members opposite will take a different view from this side of the Committee on the general principle embodied in this Clause. I want to make it clear that we on these benches think it is not only a good Clause but a necessary and useful one.
Having said that, I support the spirit, if not the actual language, of the Amendment. I hope my right hon. and learned Friend will agree that there is something 1580 in this point and that the Amendment is desirable in itself. It does not seem to me that it is necessary to impose the obligations on bankers to disclose this information where the information relates to someone not resident in this country. In those circumstances there cannot be any loss to the Revenue, and I should have thought it would be an advantage to the country, rather than a disadvantage, if the limitation suggested by the right hon. Gentleman could be accepted by the Government.
§ The Attorney-GeneralThe right hon. Gentleman has brought to the notice of the Committee matters which we feel require careful consideration. In framing the Amendment he has followed the precedent of Section 18 (5) of the Finance Act, 1939 and, basing himself upon that precedent, he has sought to make a change in the provisions of this Clause.
It is apparent from what the right hon. Gentleman said that we shall not be able to agree, at any rate without discussion, about the Clause itself, but we feel able to regard this issue as to whether the obligations imposed by the Clause should extend to non-residents as one which could be dealt with in isolation from the general Clause. Both the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, East (Mr. E. Fletcher), have voiced a desire that this exception should be made from the provisions of the Clause, and having carefully considered it we think that the general purpose of the Clause would be achieved even if this exception were embodied in it. Therefore, we are prepared to accept the general purport of this Amendment.
We feel there are difficulties about the drafting of it. If I may I will just intimate one. Supposing a bank did mistakenly treat as a resident a person who was really a non-resident, it might render itself liable to some proceedings for breach of confidence. In the drafting which is ultimately adopted we think provision should be made for that kind of contingency. There are other criticisms of drafting which we think require careful consideration. If the right hon. Gentleman will withdraw his Clause, I give an undertaking that by the Report stage we will have drafted words which will embody the terms of the Amendment which both he and my hon. Friend had in mind.
§ Mr. AsshetonI am much obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for what he said, and in the light of his undertaking, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. PeakeDespite the concession which the Attorney-General has just announced we still regard this Clause as highly objectionable in principle and likely to be futile in practice. In saying a few words about it I must refer to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. He said that he was advised that evasion of tax
… is by no means unsubstantial in this field.That is to say there is a substantial amount of tax evasion by means of deposited money in banks or apparently with other concerns also, on which the interest is paid without any deduction of tax.The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in the Second Reading debate, was very shy about the persons who are attacked by this Clause, because he said:
Also with the purpose of checking evasion, we have provided in Clause 23 that any bank or other relevant trader should make returns to the Inland Revenue of certain interest paid or credited without deduction of tax."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th May, 1951: Vol. 487, c. 1778 and 1917.]The Clause begins with a long rigmarole about persons carrying on a trade or business, stating:Every person carrying on a trade or business who, in the ordinary course of the operations thereof, receives or retains money in such circumstances that interest becomes payable thereon which is paid or credited without deduction of income tax, and, in particular, every person carrying on the trade or business of banking. …It would appear that this Clause is aimed at a much wider class than merely the banking community.I would ask the Attorney-General to tell us, first of all, to whom in addition to the banking community is this Clause intended to apply? I presume it is not intended, for example, to apply to the Co-operative societies, as was Clause 11, which we debated at some length the day 1582 before yesterday. Is it intended to apply to the building societies, some of whom I believe pay interest without deduction of tax, and who have, of course, been repeatedly attacked by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan)?
Is it intended to apply to the housing associations formed under the Housing Acts for the provision of working class houses, which is another class of incorporated society which pays interest without deduction of tax? It is essential that we should know who are these relevant traders to whom the Financial Secretary referred in his speech on the Second Reading. It is also necessary to have a few words of explanation about Subsection (2), which enables an inspector of taxes not only to ask for the incorporated person, bank or undertaking to make a return, but to ask any branch of the undertaking to make a return. There are some very strange words in subsection (2) which says:
… separate notices may be served under that sub-section as respects the transactions carried on at any branch.I think we ought to be told what are the transactions referred to in subsection (2) of the Clause.I think it is probably true, as the Chancellor said in his Second Reading speech, that this Clause is principally aimed at bank deposits. Bank deposits carry at the present time a rate of interest of one-half of 1 per cent., and the Clause excepts from the necessity of making a return of any interest in the course of one year unless it exceeds a sum of £15. If my arithmetic is right, one has to have at least £3,000 deposited at one branch or one bank, carrying interest of one-half of 1 per cent. in order to come within the mischief of the Clause.
I say that if there is tax evasion by persons depositing large sums at banks with a view to earning one-half of one per cent., it seems a very strange thing indeed to me. Who are these wicked people, these greedy capitalists, these champion tax-evaders, these public enemies No. 1, who are content with getting one-half of one per cent. upon a very substantial sum of money? I think the Attorney-General ought to explain to us why it is suspected that people deposit very large sums in order to earn a meagre one-half of one per cent., even if that one-half of one per cent. does in 1583 some cases escape aggregation for Income Tax purposes.
But, of course, the Clause is utterly futile because one can deposit £2,999 at any bank or at any branch of a bank and in that case no return will be made. As there are at least fifteen quite separate and independent big banks in this country alone, one can clearly have up to £45,000 on deposit spread over the different banks without any return whatever being made to the tax inspectors about it.
§ Mr. E. FletcherDo I understand from what the right hon. Gentleman says that he would be in favour of eliminating this proviso so that if, in the case he is supposing, there is tax evasion, it could be dealt with?
§ Mr. PeakeWhat I am saying about this Clause is that it will be utterly futile because of the exception regarding the limit of £15. Anybody, as I have pointed out, can spread £45,000 if they are so minded, between the 15 large independent banks operating in the British Isles at the present time and, by earning interest at one-half of one per cent., will not have a return made to any inspector of taxes about the interest.
I would go further and say it would be quite impossible if one of the big banks, each of which has many hundreds of branches, was asked for a return of all the interest credited to a single individual, for the head office of this large bank to collect from all its hundreds of branches all over the country, particulars of all the different accounts which might have been opened by that individual. That, of course, is the reason for the provision in subsection (2) of the Clause, which enables the inspector to call for separate returns from separate branches of the bank.
To sum up the arguments, I say the Clause is utterly futile in practice. There is no evidence whatever that it is aimed at any particular mischief which is occurring at the present time and, lastly, of course, it is highly objectionable because it strikes at the very roots of the confidential relationship between banker and client which has hitherto been absolutely respected in this country. May I remind the Committee that in the course of the 1584 debate upon the Bill which nationalised the Bank of England, we had an unqualified assurance from the present Minister of Local Government and Planning that in no circumstances would the power taken by nationalising the Bank of England be used to compel the disclosure of any particulars regarding any individual account to any Government agency whatever?
10.0 a.m.
In the course of his Second Reading speech the Chancellor said that as, under regulations about pay-as-you-earn, the banks have to disclose particulars of what their employees earn, there is nothing objectionable in compelling them to disclose what their depositors have on deposit. I should have thought there was a very wide difference in principle between the two things. This power will enable the inspectorate of taxes to obtain perfectly clear statements from the bank managers that Mr. A. or Mr. B. or Mrs. C. has so much money, whatever it may be, placed on deposit at a branch of the bank. To my mind, to compel that disclosure will not only be futile but will do a great deal of harm to the confidential relationship which has existed hitherto and which has Iain at the very foundations of the confidence of the British public in the British banking system.
§ Mr. CroslandThe case of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North (Mr. Peake) that this Clause will be ineffective in practice in preventing tax evasion seems to me to rest upon assumptions which appear to him to be certain—first, that there does not exist a class of tax evaders who spread their money or may spread their money over the 15 banks. He may be right on this, but he may be wrong. In fact, one of the difficulties of dealing with the whole problem of tax evasion is that so little is known about the methods of evasion used by tax evaders. A great problem which faces any attempt to deal with tax evasion is that there is little certainty as to the precise methods of evasion used.
I feel, therefore, that it is impossible to know whether the right hon. Gentleman's comments on the point are right—whether he is right in assuming that this class does not exist. In my opinion, the problem of tax evasion in this country has now 1585 reached such a point that even if one cannot be certain of the precise manner in which the tax evaders operate, it is certainly worth while taking the powers which this Clause confers on the Government in the hope of dealing with at any rate some part of the problem.
Hon. Members on all sides of the Committee will agree that tax evasion is a principal method by which the intentions of the Government, in considering the taxes they impose on the country, are being frustrated. It is quite clear from ordinary observation in London or, indeed, any other great city, that a certain class of people living are at a standard of life which cannot conceivably be sustained on the income, after tax, which is the maximum that any one person can earn. The figures have been given frequently; there are only some 50 or 60 people in the country who, after tax, have a spendable income of £6,000 a year. I think there will be general agreement that there is a class of people who are clearly spending in excess of that sum, and there are only two ways in which they can do it; one is by living on capital and the other is by tax evasion. I see no point in refusing to face the fact that a considerable number of these people who are spending in the luxury class are doing it by various methods of tax evasion, to which problem we have not yet found the solution.
The problem has become so serious that it is the frequent answer of the Inland Revenue when new proposals for taxation are put to them that the staff needed could be better employed in dealing with tax evasion. To take a hypothetical example, if a proposal were made for a capital gains tax the answer of the Inland Revenue would be—and it is a very reasonable answer—that the staff required in order to operate the capital gains tax—that is, the number to be added to the staff—would achieve very much better results if they were to deal with tax evasion. I think that is a measure of how complicated and serious this problem of tax evasion has become.
I do not think this Clause does all that is required by any manner of means to solve the problem. We may have to do a great deal more in the next few years than is proposed in the Clause. We shall certainly need a large increase in the staff of the Inland Revenue if we are 1586 to deal with the problem. The staff of the Inland Revenue at the moment, quite frankly, is not large enough to deal with tax evasion on the scale on which it exists in this country. My hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), who is in his place, has had a great deal of experience of Inland Revenue problems, and I am sure he would confirm what I am saying—that a very large increase in the staff of the Inland Revenue would be needed if we were to make any headway with the problem of tax evasion.
It seems to me that we are in an intolerable situation when the Government's intentions concerning the distribution of income are being frustrated because it is so comparatively easy, with the depleted staff of the Inland Revenue, for a substantial number of people to evade a very high tax on their incomes. Our efforts to achieve a certain level of equality of spending are to that extent nullified, and I believe that is a serious social problem.
It is not merely that our efforts to achieve a certain degree of equality are nullified, but there are also serious and damaging social effects through the fact that this degree of luxury spending is going on and is observed. Perhaps I may give one very simple example. In the last two or three years we needed a policy of wage restraint on the part of the trade unions. We may need it today and we shall need it again. One of the things which make it very difficult to persuade the trade unions to accept a policy of wage restraint is that—
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI think the hon. Gentleman is now going far beyond Clause 23.
§ Mr. CroslandI certainly had no intention of going beyond this Clause. My general argument is that this Clause is one possible method of dealing with tax evasion, and the argument I am trying to pursue is that, even though this Clause may not achieve sensational results, and even though what the right hon. Member for Leeds, North, said about it is true, so serious is the problem of tax evasion in terms of its social effects that we should very strongly support this Clause. That was the argument I intended to address to the Committee, and I had no intention of going beyond the Clause.
1587 With your permission, Sir Charles, I should like to conclude that argument. I feel that the efforts we may now have to make to persuade certain sections of the population to accept some restraint in connection with their personal incomes are frustrated because when we go to them and say, "We have now achieved so much equality in this country that you need have no concern for your standard of life," they reply "Nonsense. The evidence of our own eyes shows something completely different." I therefore maintain that we must look at the long-run social effects of this problem of tax evasion.
The right hon. Gentleman may be right—[Interruption.]—hon. Members opposite can hardly complain of not having had their fair share of the time of the Committee. Many of us have listened with considerable patience to speech after speech from the benches opposite, and I think a little patience on their side is desirable now. The right hon. Gentleman may be right in saying that quantitatively the effect of this Clause will not be large, but I do not think he can be certain. I do not think that the Chancellor can be certain, and I do not think any of us can be certain. But even if these results are not sensational, I think that the Clause is well worth supporting, because any effort which will have any effect at all on this extremely serious problem ought to have the support of hon. Members on all sides of the Committee.
§ Mr. Henderson Stewart (Fife, East)As the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) said, the ostensible object of this Clause is to prevent tax evasion by those who gain interest upon money deposited in banks. I do not think anybody would object to that as a general aim. After all, the law of this country is that interest upon money invested is taxable, and anybody who does not make a return of that interest is breaking the law and evading his duties as a citizen, and I think that we would all want to condemn him. Therefore, I do not think there can be any objection to the general principle underlying this Clause.
But to admit the principle is not, necessarily, to accept any suggested means of putting the principle into practice. In this case, I believe that the means proposed are likely to defeat perhaps the main aims of the Budget, and, therefore, do infinitely 1588 more harm than good to the national interest. How many people are likely to be involved? Obviously, we are concerned here with small savings.
The Post Office Savings Bank, which is included in this Clause, has 16 million depositors. The trustee savings banks have 5½ million depositors. Between them they have something like 21 million depositors with about £3,000 million deposited. Add to that the small savings in the joint stock banks, the Co-operative Society and other banks, and we reach a figure exceeding 22 million or 23 million depositors with substantially more than £3,000 million.
§ Mr. Richard Adams (Wandsworth, Central) rose—
§ Mr. StewartNo, I am sorry. I am putting a serious argument to the Committee and trying to put it in a very short time, because there is very little time available. [Interruption.] As far as we are concerned, we shall be happy to stay all day, and if hon. Members make it difficult for us, we shall stay here all day. I thought it was the desire of the Government and their supporters that we should end about 11 o'clock, and I am endeavouring to meet that desire, but hon. Members must really behave themselves if they want to get away.
It is essential to try and understand what this proposal means in terms of people and money and so on. This Clause strikes at the depositor drawing more than £15 in annual interest. In the case of the trustee savings banks and the Post Office Savings Bank that means people with deposits of £600 or over. I do not know the correct figures, but the best estimates I can make is that the people in the Post Office Savings Bank with sums invested greater than £600, is probably in the region of 800,000 persons. In trustee savings banks it might be 300,000 or 400,000. In the joint stock banks and others there might be 200,000, making in all about 1,500,000 persons involved. If you say that as many as half are dodging the column and not paying their tax—and this is a very high estimate—there will be something like 700,0000 people who might be caught by the net of this new Clause.
If these 700,000 people are each earning £15 per annum interest, there would be £10 million per annum of interest which, 1589 on the argument of the Government, is not being taxed.
The tax on these smaller incomes would probably not exceed 5s. in the pound. I assume, therefore, that the Chancellor, if this Clause goes through, is not likely to get much more than £1 million or £2 million of extra revenue. That is a guess. The Committee has been given no figures by the Government. I invite the Chancellor, if he replies, to give us some figures. At the moment it does appear to me that, out of a Budget of £4,000 million, this sum is a very paltry addition to the revenue.
Let us say the Chancellor will get this £1 million, £2 million, or perhaps £3 million; what is the price he will have to pay for it? [HON. MEMBERS: "Peanuts."] I have tried to show, as far as I am able to estimate it, what might be the maximum increase in revenue the Chancellor will obtain. The price may well be a serious reduction in national savings. I admit that here again we are in the realms of speculation. No one can say for certain how a peremptory demand by the State for particulars about the business a bank does with its customer—hitherto sacrosanct—will affect its customers.
10.15 a.m.
But it will clearly have some effect. That is plain. We have taken advice on this matter, even although the Government may not have done so. It will be interesting to know from the Government what views have been tendered to them by the leaders of the Post Office Savings Bank. Have they been consulted, and what are their views? All I can say is that another great savings organisation—the trustee savings banks—have told us and the Government in the plainest language that they have very grave fears that the effect of this Clause will be dis-saving rather than an encouragement to saving.
Had there been time I would have wished to read extracts from a letter addressed to the Chancellor by the Chairman of the Trustee Savings Banks Association. There is not time, and I can only tell the Committee that it is the considered view—and many hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the Committee know I speak the truth—of the trustee banks 1590 that we are here entering very dangerous waters and may well be playing with fire. [Interruption.] I have only been speaking for about seven minutes.
I have deliberately not quoted essential facts and figures, but I am sure the Committee would be impressed, as the Members of the all-party committee upstairs were, with the evidence. The conclusion we reached, in the light of all that evidence of men deeply experienced in this matter, was that we are entitled to ask the Chancellor very seriously to reconsider this whole Clause between now and a later stage. I tell him—as indeed he knows—that those who understand this matter have issued the gravest warning against proceeding with the Clause in its present form.
§ Mr. Wedgwood Benn (Bristol, South-East)After making all initial allowances for the speeches from the other side of the Committee I must say that I was profoundly shocked to discover their attitude to this Clause on tax evasion. It is hard for those who have sat, as I have done, for about nine hours on this side of the Committee, without intervening in any way, to have to listen to hon. Gentlemen proposing that there should be reliefs in the Budget at the same time as they propose increased expenditure of one kind or another.
On a question like tax evasion is surely a matter on which we should have national unity. Yet we have Members in this Committee not only opposing a very modest measure against tax evasion, but we had the example of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, North (Mr. Peake) showing how it was possible to evade even this Clause, thereby strengthening the case from this side of the Committee. I am a comparatively new Member, and one not practised in tax evasion. I thought when I first saw this Clause that it might do the job, but when I heard the right hon. Gentleman I realised that although it is very necessary it will be but the start of many other evasions.
I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give more attention to this question of tightening up the tax evasion Clause before we resume consideration of the Bill at a later stage. I would also like to underline what my hon. Friend the 1591 Member for Gloucester, South (Mr. Crosland), who raised the general question of deploying Treasury resources to get the maximum revenue, that there are many hon. Members who have been, and are, in favour of some form of capital levy. The reply one very often gets is that "We in the Treasury can use the men and resources we have more effectively in connection with tax evasion." That is why we welcomed this Clause, because it indicated that the Treasury were really alive to their responsibilities in this respect, and were making a start.
Perhaps I might say a word of warning to the Chancellor on this. I believe it is necessary that when this Clause is enacted it should be accompanied by a serious effort of education and propaganda in the country. I have had one letter already from someone very active in the National Savings movement in my constituency who was concerned about the possible effect of this Clause on people who had been supporters of his savings group. [Interruption.] I am glad hon. Members opposite are in agreement, because if there is a propaganda campaign to explain this Clause that in itself implies approval of the Clause. I would warn the Chancellor that there is a danger that if this Clause is enacted, and there is not a serious attempt to inform people about the significance of it, it may have a harmful effect on the National Savings movement.
This letter which I received referred to an old couple who, to avoid the effect of this Clause, had withdrawn their money from the Post Office Savings Bank. I was able to persuade them to put it back, and of that I am very proud. Members of Parliament have opportunities at times to bring pressure on Ministers on behalf of constituents. I had an opportunity to bring pressure on constituents on behalf of the Chancellor. I persuaded my constituents to do this, but, at the same time, I was made very aware of the dangers in this Clause, and I very much hope that something will be done by the National Savings movement, in co-operation with the Chancellor, to deal with this point.
But it is really on the general principle that I would like to detain the Committee for a moment—the question of secrecy in relation to the depositor and the bank. 1592 This House is characteristic of all our people in that it is very ready to see an issue of principle. But we should be making a great mistake if we believed that the relationship between the depositor and the bank, which is nothing more than a normal commercial transaction, was somehow hallowed by a special relationship of the kind we associate with the parishioner and his clergyman or the patient and his doctor.
I do not believe that there is a comparison in this case. It is unlikely that the relation between a parishioner and his vicar would be used in any way which might be detrimental to the interests of the State, and I doubt whether the relation between a doctor and his patient could be used for purposes of tax evasion, although I can think of one possibility, of the possibility of whisky being given in exchange for services. There are many other relations which show that this normal commercial and social relation is not hallowed by tradition. I hope that hon. Members opposite will find themselves not only able to support this Clause, but also to support the Chancellor if, as I hope he will, he sees his way to strengthen it on the Report stage.
§ Mr. JayI have listened to the speeches so far made, and I realise that some of the anxieties expressed by hon. Members opposite about the effect of this Clause, though as genuine as the anxieties of my hon. Friends about the present extent of tax evasion, are unjustified. I should like to show why the anxieties of hon. Members opposite are not justified.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, North (Mr. Peake) asked me, first of all, about the purport of subsection 2, which refers to certain transactions at bank branches. In plain language—and I share his regret that these matters do not appear in plain language when drafted in Bills—the purport of that subsection is to enable Inspectors of Taxes, where convenient, to go to the branches of banks, rather than to the head offices, to get information about interest payments. That is intended mainly for the convenience of the banks themselves.
Secondly, the hon. Gentleman asked me about the position of trustee savings banks, Co-operative societies, housing associations and various other savings institutions, under this Clause. Under the Income Tax laws, either tax is deducted 1593 at source or else there is an obligation on the payer to make a return of income to the Inland Revenue. In the case of certain savings institutions—on the one hand, of the savings banks under the Income Tax Act of 1918, and, on the other hand, of the Co-operative societies under Section 32 of the 1933 Act—there is a special arrangement in cases where the taxation of interest is deducted at source. In these two cases there is already an obligation, under the Acts I mentioned, to make a, return to the Inland Revenue. What the Clause does is to ensure that, where tax is either not already deducted at source or there is no obligation under existing law to make a return to the Inland Revenue, then a return shall be made in future by any institution of this kind which pays interest to depositors.
§ 10.30 a.m.
§ Mr. JayAs I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, building societies are covered by a very special arrangement under which they average out the tax and pay to the Inland Revenue on that basis. Therefore, they are unaffected by this Clause.
§ Mr. Henry Strauss (Norwich, South)Under the Post Office Savings Bank Act of 1861 there is an obligation of secrecy which prevents the servants of the Post Office disclosing the name of any depositor. Does this Clause repeal that, and, if so, why is the repeal not mentioned?
§ Mr. JayAs I understand the law, that Act would not make it impossible for the savings bank to give information to the Inland Revenue on a matter of Income Tax. The right hon. Gentleman also suggested that this Measure was futile because it would be perfectly easy to even out a tax evader's deposits to keep a person's interest below £15. I can only assure him that it is not the view of those responsible for tax collection that this proposal would be ineffective for that reason. That is not the view they take at all.
To allay some of the anxieties on the matter of secrecy, Sir Charles, I would emphasise the point, which I think must be apparent to hon. Members, that of 1594 course no information about actual bank accounts will be given, or could be asked for, by the Inland Revenue under this Clause. It is, of course, only the interest, because interest is the income of the depositors that can be returned to the Inland Revenue.
Secondly, I would emphasise particularly that, under this Clause, no information can be made available to the Inland Revenue which an honest taxpayer would not already have returned to them. I think really that is the whole and complete answer to any anxieties that may be felt by depositors in the savings banks, banks, or whatever it may be. Any taxpayer already making an honest return of his income, as presumably the great majority are, can be assured that no additional information will come to the Inland Revenue as a result of this Clause.
Finally, I think hon. Members, and certainly the general public, do not fully realise the extent of the secrecy observed by the Inland Revenue itself in dealing with all information about the affairs of the individual taxpayer. It is certainly a secrecy quite as great as, and perhaps greater than, that observed by the banks themselves about their customer's affairs. The Inland Revenue not merely will not give any information about a person's tax affairs to anybody outside the official world; but they do not give and would refuse such information to any other Government Department, including the Treasury or, indeed, to any Minister. The Inland Revenue would refuse even the Chancellor information if he asked them about the affairs of a taxpayer, and I am assured that in no case has such information been given, even to a Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the whole history of the Inland Revenue. Therefore, I think that when that fundamental point is realised hon. Members will see that the anxieties raised by this Clause are really quite unjustified.
§ Mr. EdeA few hours ago I made a suggestion to the Committee that we might try to get to the placing of Clause 23 in the Bill and that then we would move to report Progress. I made the offer in all good faith. It was not immediately accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, who left me with a very ambiguous feeling as to what exactly was the advice he was tendering to the Committee, but we 1595 have managed now to get to the position where Clause 23 can stand part by the grace of every Member of the Committee. Any Member is now in the very powerful position of being able, by merely rising in his place, to continue the discussion on Clause 23—and I understand that within their legitimate rights the Opposition intend to divide on the Clause—with the result that Private Members' time for the last Friday for such time would be lost.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanThis Friday is not the last day for Private Members' Bills.
§ Mr. EdeI think I am accurate in regard to Bills, but there is another day for Private Members' Motions. After all it will be Private Members'—
§ Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Colne)On a point of order. With great respect to my right hon. Friend and to you, Sir Charles, may I inquire to what Motion my right hon. Friend is now speaking? If this were a speech in support of a Motion to report Progress, I would understand it, but my right hon. Friend has not moved that Motion and at the moment we are debating whether a Clause of the Finance Bill shall stand part. I rose to continue that debate, but my right hon. Friend does not seem to be continuing that debate. May I ask how his speech is in order?
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI was waiting until the right hon. Gentleman finished his speech.
§ Mr. EdeI am trying to speak in support of the Motion that Clause 23 stand part of the Bill and that it do so very quickly.
§ Mr. E. FletcherI understood you to say just now, Sir Charles, that you understood the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House was addressing the Committee with the intention at the end of his speech of moving to report Progress. The right hon. Gentleman, as I understood him, has now said he did not intend to move to report Progress.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI thought that was what the right hon. Gentleman was doing.
§ Earl Winterton (Horsham)On a point of order. Even at this hour of the morning, and in view of the position of the Committee, we must have some regard to ordinary procedure. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to address and appeal to the Committee, he should move to report Progress, not proceed to give us a lecture on a particular Amendment.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI must make my position quite clear. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is making a speech and is going to move to report Progress.
§ Mr. SilvermanOn a point of order. I am very grateful for the support of the noble Lord. This is not a party point. If my right hon. Friend is really intending to conclude by moving to report Progress it would be a great convenience if he would say so.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanThat is not a point of order.
§ Mr. EdeI do not intend to say any more. I am certain that the purpose of my rising was fully understood, and I regret that, after an amicable night, it has not met with any response.
§ Mr. SilvermanI feel a little diffident about impeding the juxtaposition of those two elements which the hon. Gentleman opposite mixed in his speech a few moments ago—the fire that we are playing with and the dangerous waters upon which we are embarking. It seems to me that in this Clause we are dealing with two very important principles which may not be compatible. I suppose that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree that their opposition to this Clause is not founded upon any small point or any desire to be obstructive or vexatious. They attach the utmost importance, as I do myself, to the principle of the confidential relationship between a bank and its customers.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanOrder. I cannot hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying.
§ Mr. SilvermanIt is, of course, one of the foundations of our commercial life in this country, and would remain so under any Government and under whatever 1597 regime. The complaint of the Opposition about this Clause is that we are, for the first time, making a very serious inroad upon that principle. On the other hand, everybody in the House will agree that whatever is necessary to prevent wholesale tax evasion ought not to be shirked by Parliament or by this Committee. I want to suggest to the Opposition—
§ The Deputy-ChairmanThere is so much noise that I cannot hear a word of what the hon. Gentleman is saying.
§ Mr. SilvermanI want to suggest to the Opposition that they are, in this instance, exaggerating out of all reasonable proportions the impairment or the alleged impairment of that confidential relationship. At the moment, the Revenue authorities are entitled to see all the accounts and all the books of every business in the country. They are entitled to go to accountants—I think usually with permission, but nevertheless they can go—so that all these books, figures and accounts are disclosed confidentially to the Income Tax Commissioners. They are disclosed confidentially, but nevertheless disclosed. There is one other thing—
§ Mr. SilvermanSurely, Sir Charles, if the Committee is called to order to stop the muttering, it ought to apply to both sides.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI have made an appeal for order twice in a few minutes, because I have hardly heard a word of what the hon. Gentleman has said. I would again appeal for order in the Committee, because I, too, want to hear what is said.
§ Mr. SilvermanI should like to assure you, Sir Charles, that I am endeavouring to address a perfectly serious argument to what I regard as a very important Clause, and what, until a few moments ago, I thought the Opposition also regarded as a very important Clause. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Well, if it is an important Clause, let us not try to rush it through in order to save five or 10 minutes. Let us examine it in a serious way; if we are going to examine it, let us do so with reasonable decorum.
I suggest that this business of the confidential relations between bank and customer has to be seen in relation to 1598 other things. There used to be a principle, equally sacred as the confidential relationship between bank and customer, concerning the relationship between employers and employed about the amount of a man's earnings. That principle was abandoned during the war. Every person in this country who earns a weekly wage, man, woman or juvenile, without his or her consent, without having any part or lot in it, has his or her earnings disclosed to the Income Tax authorities every year. No fuss has ever been made about that.
No one has ever talked about the necessity of reserving to the ordinary citizen, who has no money of his own or money in the bank, the confidential nature of his weekly earnings. It is not left to him, as it is to other people, first to disclose his income himself and then ask for reliefs. That is not good enough for the Opposition. In the case of the vast majority of Income Tax payers in this country, their means are disclosed to the authorities, and have been for some years.
10.45 a.m.
It seems to me to be sheer humbug to say that all these things shall be disclosed without consent and that the whole principle of confidential relationships, as far as it affects these people, shall be abandoned, but that the confidential relationship between banker and customer shall be preserved, even though all the other facts relating to the matter must be disclosed, and are, in fact, disclosed. It seems to me, therefore, that if one looks at the matter carefully, there is room for compromise between these two principles, and I do not think this Clause contains the dangers attributed to it by some of the speakers from the other side of the Committee.
I want to make one other point. In the speeches which have been made against this Clause so far, it has been suggested that the mischief which is being attacked is the mischief of concealing certain income of certain interests from certain deposits in banks, but that is only a very small part of the story. The interesting thing about many of these accounts in the banks, from a tax evasion point of view, is not the undisclosed income from the deposits, but how the deposits themselves came into being at all. Very often, it is the result of previous concealment and evasion, and the importance of the thing is not the amount of income that 1599 would become taxable, and which, but for this Clause, might be concealed, but the accumulation of the profits of evasion over a great many years.
If we are to deal seriously with the problem of tax evasion, and I hope the Committee will see that we do, we ought unanimously to accept this Clause and ask my right hon. Friend the Chancellor for an assurance that, on Report stage, so far from weakening the Clause, it will be strengthened to meet the very valid criticisms of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, North (Mr. Peake). He said that this thing would not work and gave various reasons for thinking that. I do not know whether that is right or not, but I think it ought to be examined, because, if there is any danger whatever of the Clause not working as at present drafted, then it ought to be strengthened so as to make sure that it will work. I hope my hon. Friends on this side of the Committee will agree with me in this, and that, if necessary, they will make their views known.
§ Mr. Eden (Warwick and Leamington)I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I do that to put myself in order and so that I may make one or two brief observations about the position of those of us on this side of the Committee. I think I must do that in view of the right hon. Gentleman's appeal. We tried earlier this morning to consider making progress with the business, because we all thought there was a fairly widespread desire to help Private Members get their Bills, particularly one Bill, if that could be done. In good faith, we tried to do that, as did the Leader of the House, but that endeavour has not succeeded.
The immediate question is what we do now. I want to make plain the position
§ of hon. Members on this side of the Committee. We were prepared to make that arrangement in the interest of Private Members and the general conduct of business. Since that arrangement has not been accepted, there appear to be two alternatives open to us, one to report Progress now, which is, of course, a matter for the Committee to decide, or, if that is not accepted—and I want to make it clear that we on this side deem ourselves entirely free from any arrangement that might have been made earlier today—to continue this debate as long as it shall be thought fit so to do.
§ Mr. EdeI am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman will realise that I, too, have tried to do what I could to save today's Private Members' time. May I say, as I said earlier, that I think if it had been made more clear when I put forward the original suggestion that we were prepared to report Progress when we had obtained Clause 23, some of what has happened during the last half hour or so might have been avoided. My right hon. Friend the Chief Whip and I have done our best, and I want to make it quite plain that there was no bargain, and that everything which was said was said in the presence of the whole Committee. I made the offer, which was not actually accepted by the right hon. Gentleman, although may I say that with, perhaps, a rather longer knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman than that of some others, I interpreted his remarks as an expression of veiled good will towards the object that I expressed. I was genuinely anxious to save Private Members' time for today, and I regret that it does not appear likely that the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and I have succeeded in that endeavour.
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 265; Noes, 273.
1603| Division No. 102.] | AYES | [10.55 a.m. |
| Aitken, W. T. | Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Bennett, William (Woodside) | Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Bevins, J. R. (Liverpool, Toxteth) | Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) |
| Amory, Heathcoat (Tiverton) | Birch, Nigel | Browne, Jack (Govan) |
| Arbuthnot, John | Bishop, F. P. | Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. |
| Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) | Black, C. W. | Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) | Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Burden, F. A. |
| Astor, Hon. M. L. | Boothby, R. | Butcher, H. W. |
| Baker, P. A. D. | Bossom, A. C. | Butler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden) |
| Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. | Bowen, E. R. | Carry, Robert (Mitcham) |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Carson, Hon. E. |
| Banks, Col. C. | Boyle, Sir Edward | Channon. H. |
| Baxter, A. B. | Bracken, Rt. Hon. E. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. |
| Beamish, Major Tufton | Braine, B. R. | Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) |
| Bell, R. M. | Braithwaite, Lt.-Cr. G. (Bristol, N. W.) | Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) |
| Colegate, A. | Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) | Powell, J. Enoch |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Hutchison, Col. James (Glasgow) | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) |
| Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert (Ilford, S.) | Jennings, R. | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Johnson, Major Howard (Kemptown) | Profumo, J. D. |
| Corbett, Lt.-Col. Uvedale (Ludlow) | Jones, A. (Hall Green) | Raikes, H. V. |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. | Rayner, Brig. R. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kaberry, D. | Redmayne, M. |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) | Remnant, Hon. P. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Roberts, Major Peter (Heeley) |
| Crouch, R. F. | Lambert, Hon. G. | Robertson, Sir David (Caithness) |
| Crowder, Capt. John (Finchley) | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) |
| Cundiff, F. W. | Langford-Holt, J. | Robson-Brown, W. |
| Cuthbert. W. N. | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) | Leather, E. H. C. | Roper, Sir Harold |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Ropner, Col. L. |
| Davies, Nigel (Epping) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Russell, R. S. |
| de Chair, Somerset | Lindsay, Martin | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. |
| De la Bère, R. | Linstead, H. N. | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Deedes, W. F. | Llewellyn, D. | Scott, Donald |
| Digby, S. W. | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (King's Norton) | Shepherd, William |
| Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) |
| Donner, P. W. | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) | Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. | Snadden, W. McN. |
| Drayson, G. B. | Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.) | Soames, Capt. C. |
| Dugdale, Maj. Sir Thomas (Richmond) | Low, A. R. W. | Spearman A. C. M. |
| Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) | Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) |
| Dunglass, Lord | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) | Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.) |
| Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard (N. Fylde) | |
| Duthie, W. S. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. | Stevens, G. P. |
| Eccles, D. M. | McAdden, S. J. | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) |
| Eden, Rt. Hon. A. | McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. | Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Erroll, F. J. | McKibbin, A. | Storey, S. |
| Fisher, Nigel | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) |
| Fort, R. | Maclay, Hon. John | Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray) |
| Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) | Maclean, Fitzroy | Summers, G. S. |
| Fraser, Sir I. (Morecambe & Lonsdale) | MacLeod, Iain (Enfield, W.) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell | MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) | Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne) |
| Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Teeling, W. |
| Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) | Macpherson, Major Niall (Dumfries) | Teevan, T. L. |
| Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh) | Maitland, Cmdr. J. W. | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Gates, Maj. E. E. | Manningham-Buller, R. E. | Thompson, Kenneth Pugh (Walton) |
| Glyn, Sir Ralph | Marlowe, A. A. H. | Thompson, Lt.-Cmdr. R. (Croydon, W.) |
| Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. | Marples, A. E. | Thorneycroft, Peter (Monmouth) |
| Gridley, Sir Arnold | Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) | Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. |
| Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) | Marshall, Sidney (Sutton) | Thorp, Brig. R. A. F. |
| Grimston, Robert (Westbury) | Maude, Angus (Ealing, S.) | Tilney, John |
| Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Medlicott, Brig. F. | Turner, H. F. L. |
| Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) | Mellor, Sir John | Turton, R. H. |
| Harris, Reader (Heston) | Molson, A. H. E. | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Harvey, Air-Codre. A. V. (Macclesfield) | Monckton, Sir Walter | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) | Morrison, John (Salisbury) | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. |
| Harvie-Watt, Sir George | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) | Vosper, D. F. |
| Hay, John | Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Head, Brig. A. H. | Nabarro, G. | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone) |
| Heald, Lionel | Nicholls, Harmar | Walker-Smith, D. C. |
| Heath, Edward | Nicholson, G. | Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) |
| Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Nield, Basil (Chester) | Ward, Miss. I. (Tynemouth) |
| Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. | Noble, Cmdr. A. H. P. | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. |
| Higgs, J. M. C. | Nugent, G. R. H. | Watkinson, H. |
| Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Nutting, Anthony | Webbe, Sir Harold |
| Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) | Oakshott, H. D. | Wheatley, Major M. J. (Poole) |
| Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Odey, G. W. | White, Baker (Canterbury) |
| Hirst, Geoffrey | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Williams, Charles (Torquay) |
| Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Hope, Lord John | Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) | |
| Hopkinson, Henry | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Wills, G. |
| Hornsby-Smith, Miss. P. | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence | Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) | Osborne, C. | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Howard, Greville (St. Ives) | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | York, C. |
| Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) | Perkins, W. R. D. | |
| Hudson, Rt. Hon. Robert (Southport) | Peto, Brig. C. H. M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) | Pickthorn, K. | Brigadier Mackeson and |
| Hutchinson, Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) | Pitman, I. J. | Mr. Studholme. |
| NOES | ||
| Acland, Sir Richard | Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Bartley, P. |
| Adams, H. R. | Awbery, S. S. | Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. |
| Albu, A. H. | Ayles, W. H. | Benn, Wedgwood |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Bacon, Miss. Alice | Benson, G. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Baird, J. | Beswick, F. |
| Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell) | Balfour, A. | Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) |
| Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) | Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. | Bing, G. H. C. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Hardy, E. A. | Pargiter, G. A. |
| Boardman, H. | Hargreaves, A. | Parker, J. |
| Booth, A. | Hayman, F. H. | Paton, J. |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Tipton) | Pearson, A. |
| Bowden, H. W. | Herbison, Miss. M. | Peart, T. F. |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Hewitson, Capt. M. | Porter, G. |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Hobson, C. R. | Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) |
| Brook, Dryden (Halifax) | Holman, P. | Proctor, W. T. |
| Brooks, T. J. (Normanton) | Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth) | Pryde, D. J. |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Houghton, D. | Pursey, Cmdr. H. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Hoy, J. | Rankin, J. |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) | Rees, Mrs. D. |
| Burke, W. A. | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Reeves, J. |
| Burton, Miss. E. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Reid, Thomas (Swindon) |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Reid, William (Camlachie) |
| Callaghan, L. J. | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Rhodes, H. |
| Carmichael, J. | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Robens, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) |
| Champion, A. J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) |
| Chetwynd, G. R. | Janner, B. | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Clunie, J. | Jay, D. P. T. | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Jeger, George (Goole) | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) |
| Coldrick, W. | Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.) | Royle, C. |
| Collindridge, F. | Jenkins, R. H. | Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley |
| Cook, T. F. | Johnson, James (Rugby) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Cooper, Geoffrey (Middlesbrough, W.) | Johnston, Douglas (Paisley) | Shurmer, P. L. E. |
| Cooper, John (Deptford) | Jones, David (Hartlepool) | Silverman, Julius (Erdington) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda (Peckham) | Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Cove, W. G. | Jones, William Elwyn (Conway) | Simmons, C. J. |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Keenan, W. | Slater, J. |
| Crawley, A. | Kenyon, C. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Crosland, C. A. R. | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | King, Dr. H. M. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | Kinghorn, Sqn. Ldr. E. | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Daines, P. | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Sparks, J. A. |
| Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Lee, Miss. Jennie (Cannock) | Sleele, T. |
| Darling, George (Hillsborough) | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) |
| Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) | Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) | Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Lewis, John (Bolton, W.) | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) |
| Deer, G. | Lindgren, G. S. | Stross, Dr. Barnett |
| Dodds, N. N. | Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith |
| Donnelly, D. | Longden, Fred (Small Heath) | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | McAllister, G. | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) | MacColl, J. E. | Taylor, Robert (Morpeth) |
| Dye, S. | McGhee, H. G. | Thomas, David (Aberdare) |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | McInnes, J. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Edelman, M. | Mack, J. D. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Edwards, John (Brighouse) | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Mackay, R. W. G. (Reading, N.) | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) | McLeavy, F. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Timmons, J. |
| Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) | McNeil, Rt. Hon. H. | Tomney, F. |
| Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Ewart, R. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn |
| Fernyhough, E. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Vernon, W. F. |
| Field, Capt. W. J. | Mann, Mrs. Jean | Viant, S. P. |
| Finch, H. J. | Manuel, A. C. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) | Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Watkins, T. E. |
| Follick, M. | Mathers, Rt. Hon. G. | Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford. C.) |
| Foot, M. M. | Mellish, R. J. | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Forman, J. C. | Messer, F. | Wells, William (Walsall) |
| Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton) | Middleton, Mrs. L. | West, D. G. |
| Freeman, John (Watford) | Mikardo, Ian | Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. (Edinb'gh, E.) |
| Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Mitchison, G. R. | White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) |
| Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Moeran, E. W. | White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Ganley, Mrs. C. S. | Monslow, W. | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Gibson, C. W. | Moody, A. S. | Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B. |
| Gilzean, A. | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Glanville, James (Consett) | Morley, R. | Willey, Frederick (Sunderland) |
| Gooch, E. G. | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) | Willey, Octavius (Cleveland) |
| Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Mort, D. L. | Williams, David (Neath) |
| Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) | Moyle, A. | Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillary) |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Mulley, F. W. | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Grey, C. F. | Murray, J. D. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Nally, W. | Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) |
| Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanefty) | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) | Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) |
| Griffiths, W. D. (Exchange) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. | Wise, F. J. |
| Gunter, R. J. | O'Brien, T. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Hardy, E. A. | Oldfield, W. H. | Wyatt, W. L. |
| Hannan, W. | Oliver, G. H. | Yates, V. F. |
| Hale, Joseph (Rochdale) | Orbach, M. | Younger, Hon. K. |
| Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) | Padley, W. E. | |
| Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Dearne V'lly) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Hamilton, W. W. | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Delargy. |
| Hannan, W. | Pannell, T. C. |
§ Original Question again proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterIf I may bring the Committee back to Clause 23, I should like to raise with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a technical matter to which he referred. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. H. Strauss), in an intervention, pointed out—[Interruption], I hope the Committee will appreciate my co-operation with their desire that the debate should continue. The Financial Secretary will recall that during his speech my hon. and learned Friend put to him the fact that Section 4 of the Post Office Savings Bank Act, 1861, forbids the Postmaster-General and his officers to give information about deposits to anybody outside the Post Office.
I think the Financial Secretary would agree that the present Bill does not include in the Repeal Schedule any reference to Section 4 of the 1861 Act which therefore, of course, continues in effect. But the Financial Secretary did say that Section 4 of the 1861 Act did not interfere with the duty imposed by this Bill upon the Postmaster-General. I am bound to say that if one considers the actual words of the 1861 Act, it appears that the Financial Secretary's proposition is wholly untenable.
The Financial Secretary will recall the actual wording of the Section:
The officers of the Postmaster General engaged in the receipt or payment of deposits shall not disclose the name of any depositor nor the amount deposited or withdrawn, except to the Postmaster General, or to such of his officers as may be appointed to assist in carrying this Act into operation.On the merits of the matter, that has been the law of this country for 90 years, and it has been the policy of successive Parliaments to preserve the security of information as to Post Office deposits.On the technicalities of the matter it appears that there is a clear prohibition on the Postmaster-General and his officers from disclosing, for example, to the Inland Revenue, information which comes to them in respect of those deposits. That seems clear and, therefore, if the desire of the Government is to secure that the Post Office should be compelled to furnish this information, it appears that they should 1606 have gone further and included in the Bill an express repeal of Section 4 of the Act of 1861. I must say that what the Financial Secretary said does not seem consistent with the words of the statute. Incidentally, I am not at this point saying a word as to whether the Government are right or wrong in what they are attempting to do.
I hope that the Law Officers, both of whom I am glad to see are present, will be prepared to deal with the point which I have raised because I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, whether they think what the Clause tries to do is a good thing or a bad thing—about which I shall say a few words in a moment—will agree that it would be quite wrong to leave the officers of the Post Office in the difficult position of having wholly conflicting and inconsistent duties imposed upon them by two Acts of Parliament, both in force at the same time. It may be that the Attorney-General has an answer, but the answer is certainly not that given by the Financial Secretary. I hope that at some stage in the discussion one of the Law Officers will be good enough to advise the Committee on the position.
I desire to say a few words on the merits of the matter. As I understood the arguments of the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) and the hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Wedgwood Benn), they came to this: there is tax evasion; it is stated that this provision will deal with tax evasion; therefore, this is a good provision. That was their reasoning. But, of course, it ignores the two really fundamental considerations—first, whether this provision will be of any use at all in dealing with tax evasion, and second, whether, even if it is any use for that purpose, the price paid in violation of other understandings and other values is or is not too high. The very superficial reasoning which came from two of the most respected of the younger Socialist intellectuals was hardly up to their normal standard, no doubt as a result of the prolonged Sitting which His Majesty's-Government have imposed upon them.
The best defence of the Clause came not from the Treasury Bench but from the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). But we have not heard from anybody any indication how 1607 the Clause will deal with tax evasion at all and, indeed, whether there is any substantial evasion with which it can deal. It seems to me, I confess, quite fantastic to believe that these dangerous manipulators, these super-spivs, are content to place their money in banks at a rate of interest of half of 1 per cent., which they placidly draw as a means of deceiving the Revenue. That conception of the people with whom the Government are seeking to deal seems to have a naive innocence which is very refreshing on a bright June morning, but which has remarkably little relevance to the practical issues.
I suggest to His Majesty's Government, with all respect, that the people with whom they are seeking to deal—and nobody in any quarter of the Committee wishes to shelter or protect tax evaders—do not manage their affairs in that way. It is doubtful whether in many cases they deal with bank accounts at all, but one thing I should have thought was abundantly clear—that they did not just quietly put their money on deposit with the banks. It seems to me, therefore, that after all the trumpets have blown and all the speeches have been made saying that this is a great and valiant attempt to deal with tax evasion, in fact, as so often with His Majesty's Government, the trumpets have sounded the order of assault on the wrong fortress.
There is the other point of view on the matter—whether, even if any tax evasion can be prevented in this way, it is worth it at the price. Several hon. Members have pointed out that in a commercial community such as ours the confidential and professional relationship between banker and client is a very valuable thing and that it should surely be the policy of Parliament not lightly to disturb that mutual relationship unless—which seems to me is not the case now—an overwhelming case can be made out on the merits.
11.15 a.m.
As I pointed out in referring to the technical point with which I opened, for 90 years it has been the policy of Parliament to protect from scrutiny by anybody outside the Post Office the Post Office deposit accounts which, by one of the subsections, are specifically brought with- 1608 in this Clause. That policy was adopted by our predecessors in deference to the principle to which I have tried to refer—that of the confidential relationship.
When I recall what one hon. Member opposite said about small people not being considered in this matter. I would respectfully remind him that the vast majority of the depositors in the Post Office are small depositors and that they are at least as anxious, I believe, as those who have the good fortune to have larger accounts with the joint stock banks to protect the confidential nature of their holding. I thought the Financial Secretary was going very wide of the mark when he said that no honest taxpayer need mind these facts being disclosed. The overwhelming majority of people in this country are honest people, but the overwhelming majority very much resent having their private affairs forcibly disclosed to public officials, however innocent the conduct of those affairs may be. That, I think, will be the experience of all hon. Members and it seems to me terribly irresponsible and light-hearted for the Government to come forward at this moment to say that, in the name of preventing tax evasion, they have to violate those confidences.
For those reasons, I think this is a bad Clause—not quite as bad as when we began the discussion, because of the acceptance by the Government of the principle of the Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend, but a bad Clause none the less and one which does some damage to valuable factors in our commercial life. It is a Clause which, I believe, so far as tax evasion is concerned is a sham and which achieves no object or very little object at the cost of considerable sacrifice of things that do matter to a good many people in this country. It seems to me, therefore, that it is a rotten Clause, and I think it should be out of the Bill.
§ Mr. Douglas Houghton (Sowerby)What the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) has done is to underline the two criticisms made by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North (Mr. Peake), who said that the Clause was objectionable in principle and would be utterly futile in practice. If hon. Members opposite object to this Clause but are, nevertheless, anxious to check tax evasion, I respectfully suggest to them 1609 an alternative which will achieve the purpose of checking tax evasion without being objectionable in principle—that the cardinal principle of deduction of tax at the source should be applied to bank interests and all other interests now paid without deduction of tax.
Why was interest on bank deposits and on quite a range of gilt-edged securities exempted from this firm principle which was applied almost everywhere else—the principle of deduction of tax at the source? Because the Inland Revenue desired to avoid having a large number of repayments of tax. Many taxpayers who had deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank, in trustee savings banks, in the joint stock banks, were not liable to pay tax at the time when this principle was first introduced. To avoid repayments a large range of interest from banks and certain Government stocks was allowed to be paid without deduction of tax. But there is no reason at all in principle why tax should not be deducted by the banks, and by the Co-operative societies, in just the same way as tax is deducted by limited companies when paying dividends on shares.
§ Mr. Drayson (Skipton)Is the hon. Gentleman now suggesting that the Co-operative Society should deduct tax from the dividend they pay?
§ Mr. Messer (Tottenham)He did not say "dividends." He said "interest."
§ Mr. HoughtonWhat I am suggesting is that, if hon. Members opposite are sincere in their protestations of a desire to avoid tax evasion they should support the alternative to this Clause, which would be the deduction at the source when paying interest which is now paid without deduction of tax. I have no doubt that hon. Members opposite would dissent from such a proposition. I do not know why. They have introduced no Amendment to this Clause to strengthen it. If the Clause will be utterly futile in practice, why have the Opposition not brought forward a suggestion for making it effective in practice? It could be done quite simply. If, as the right hon. Member for Leeds, North, says some spiv or tax evader can ingeniously spread a large fortune over a large number of banks and still avoid any disclosure of his money to the Inland Revenue under this Clause, why did not he and his hon. Friend the 1610 Member for Kingston-upon-Thames suggest that the limit of £15 interest should be removed from the Clause?
§ Colonel Ropner (Barkston Ash)Does the hon. Gentleman want an answer to that Question? The answer, of course, is that it would have been out of order if they had tried to do so.
§ Mr. HoughtonThere is not the slightest reason why hon. Members opposite should not have said that it would be their desire to strengthen this Clause, and they could have urged the Government to strengthen the Clause. They have not done so. All they have done is to pour scorn upon it, and yet at the same time avow their anxiety to check tax evasion.
Since we were speaking on this last there has been a Third Report from the Public Accounts Committee which has underlined yet again the seriousness of the present position regarding tax evasion. We ask hon. Members opposite to show some serious intention to check this evasion and to strengthen the hands of the Government in dealing with it. If this is objectionable in principle, certainly the deduction of tax at the source is not, because it is the cardinal principle of direct taxation. The confidential relationship, if there is any, between shareholders and companies is overcome by the deduction of tax at the source. The confidential relationship between employee and employer is disposed of because the employer is required by law to disclose the earnings of his employees.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) drew attention to the fact that, week by week, employers are disclosing the earnings of their employees as a means of ensuring the security of the revenue. Not only are the earnings being disclosed, but tax is being deducted from those earnings week by week. How can hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite expect the workers to go on submitting to the extraction from their pay packets, weekly and monthly, of the tax due to the Revenue, without any option on their part, notwithstanding any domestic difficulties they may have, and notwithstanding any personal inconvenience to which the direct payment of tax may give rise.
They have no latitude, like taxpayers in business who pay under Schedule D, 1611 who are paying in arrear, and who can very frequently take a good slice of grace in addition. They are not in the same favourable position as those who are receiving untaxed interest, who again are paying tax on income in arrears, and have a certain latitude as to payment. P.A.Y.E., which is a principle introduced long since the first declaration of the sanctity of the confidentiality between bank and customer was proclaimed, is now a feature of our Income Tax system, and we must bring up to date, and into line with that principle, other aspects of the taxing machine.
I suggest that it is not enough for hon. Members opposite merely to criticise this Clause without offering any suggestion as to an alternative way of checking this evasion. Evasion is known to be practised on quite a large scale. One means of detecting evasion or avoidance of tax is to have disclosure of the existence of bank accounts and the amount of interest paid from those accounts where it exceeds the modest sum of £15.
I remind the Committee that 30 years ago a Royal Commission drew attention to the substantial evasion which was then taking place when taxation was very much lower, and when the number of taxpayers was very much smaller than it is at present. Having regard to the conventional ethics and the relationship between banker and customer of 30 years ago, while not able to recommend that a Clause on these lines should be introduced into a Finance Bill, they did propose that the banks and the Inland Revenue should get together with a view to reaching an agreement whereby the existence of bank accounts would be disclosed by the banks to the Inland Revenue: not the amount of interest paid, but the existence of bank accounts; the names and addresses of those who held deposits in the banks concerned. That would have been an effective measure; more effective than doing nothing, though not perhaps as effective as this, where there will be some indication of the size of the deposit from the amount of interest paid.
I conclude by saying that, if the debate continues from hon. Members opposite on these lines, if there is nothing but criticisms of the Clause, with no support for the measure now being taken 1612 to check evasion, and no alternative to the method now proposed, we much dismiss their protestations on checking evasion as containing a good deal of hypocrisy.
§ Sir William Darling (Edinburgh, South)The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) speaks with very great knowledge, and the remarks of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) were in a similar strain. I submit that the charge really is that the savings bank depositors, of whom there are many millions, are dishonest, unreliable and disloyal citizens who are engaged in a large conspiracy of tax evasion. I speak as a trustee of a savings bank, and as one who has had a savings bank account since I was five years old, and I think that that is a slanderous statement to be made by any Member of Parliament.
The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Crosland) said that tax evasion had reached a very serious point. I do not know what his information is. Does he know any members of savings banks or thrift societies? Does he suggest that his constituents, that these millions of depositors, people who have got sums of £100, £200, £300, £400 or £500 in the bank, are engaged together in an elaborate method of defrauding the Revenue? That is an insulting and offensive suggestion which these many millions of investors will resent.
11.30 a.m.
One hon. Member said he moved about in a limited way and that he saw everywhere persons who spent money on a scale of £6,000 a year and who must certainly be evading taxation. Let me assure that hon. Member, who is young and innocent, that they are not bank depositors. I know I meet very few of them at the Dorchester when I go there occasionally as the guest of wealthy Socialist friends, and I see few of them at the Savoy. There is a widespread fear of this particular Clause and I would not say that if I had not very important evidence.
In a letter which has reached me from an actuary of a savings bank in Scotland, the writer says that the point I had raised about the effect of Clause 23 in this Bill was causing real mental disturbance. It had been discussed at length at a meeting 1613 there and it transpired that a good deal of money was being drawn out simply for that reason—that is, there was a run on the banks. It goes on to say:
We had a priest in the bank lately who withdrew a very substantial sum. He was asked in the course of conversation what he proposed to do with it and his reply was 'Spend it'.That is the policy which the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants to encourage, apparently. The writer added that he hoped that if the Government were properly approached it might be possible to have the position reconsidered.Here is a letter from a bank actuary in Wales. He says:
I am very concerned by the heavy demands for withdrawals from bank balances in £1 notes ….Hon. Members opposite may laugh, but he is the trusted servant of the country, which is more than can be said for some of those who are laughing. The actuary added that a badly-worded report in the Press gave many depositors the impression that Inland Revenue inspectors were to go through the books in search of tax evasion. The result was that they withdrew their deposits in cash and kept them at home or split them in small amounts elsewhere. That is the opinion of those whom Clause 23 affects. Surely the Government want to take into consideration the millions of persons who place their savings at the disposal of the Government.
§ Mr. HoughtonIs the hon. Member suggesting these are the honest depositors?
§ Sir W. DarlingI am not only suggesting they are honest depositors, but I am saying so on the authority of the actuary of a bank in Wales.
§ Mr. HoughtonWhy are they seeking to withdraw the money if they have no fear of disclosure?
§ Sir W. DarlingThe actuary went on to say that bank officials had tried to persuade a number of people from taking their money away and he knew of one case where withdrawal had been made when the person concerned was not even liable for Income Tax.
§ Dr. MorganI do not believe the letter.
§ Sir W. DarlingThat does not surprise me. One Welshman always does doubt another.
§ Dr. MorganI am not a Welshman.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanOrder. When I stand up, hon. Members must sit down. If the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling) has not given way, he has the Floor of the Committee.
§ Dr. MorganThe hon. Member has made an accusation against me and I want to deny it.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI did not hear what the accusation was.
§ Mr. Ellis SmithIt was about a Welshman.
§ Dr. MorganIt was of being a Welshman.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanThat is not considered an insult in this House.
§ Dr. MorganI think that is unfair.
§ The Deputy-ChairmanI must ask the hon. Member to withdraw that remark. It is most uncalled for.
§ Dr. MorganI am sorry, Sir. I am accused of being something I am not, and I wanted to do the decent thing and correct the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Sir W. Darling). If you have anything against me and I have made an unfair remark against you I willingly withdraw it.
§ Sir W. DarlingI am sorry if I gave offence to the hon. Member for Warring-ton (Dr. Morgan) and I apologise for any offence I caused him.
I shall now return to the important fact, which is the consideration of the feelings of some millions of depositors in trustee savings banks. They are persons of independent character. They have carefully hoarded their pounds, shillings and pence for many years. They have confidential relations with the managers and they do not want their neighbours to know they have saved £10, £20 or £80, and we must respect that confidence. Im there is this evil of tax evasion, then it is the responsibility of the Inland Revenue. We do not put everybody in gaol because there 1615 is one criminal. Surely, if there are as many spivs, as suggested by Government supporters, it should be possible to lay some of them by the heels, but every depositor in the savings banks must not be brought into this.
I suggest sincerely to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is a strong supporter of the National Savings Movement and who believes in thrift and savings, that if this is done he will strike at the very foundation of the confidence of millions of depositors. If there are spivs and defrauders of the Revenue, let there be no penalty too heavy to punish them, but do not let us make everyone who has a savings bank deposit in Glasgow, Swansea or Woolwich feel that he is under suspicion of defrauding the Revenue. His Majesty's Government have plenty of enemies without adding another 10 million, and for personal reasons and for national reasons and in the interest of thrift and good government, I beg the Government to withdraw this Clause.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI do not propose to travel generally over the criticisms that have been made of this Clause or the justification for it in reply to those criticisms. I rise to deal with the specific point of law that was asked of the Financial Secretary by the hon. and learned Member for Norwich, South (Mr. H. Strauss) and by the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). The Financial Secretary at my prompting had given the answer, "No" and that is an answer, having considered it more carefully, which I think is right. It is the advice I offer to the Committee. I think there can be very little doubt about it.
Both the hon. and learned Member for Norwich, South, and the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames referred to Section 4 of the Post Office Savings Bank Act, 1861. If they will look more closely at that Section, they will see that it deals with making disclosure otherwise than to the Postmaster-General. The Clause we are talking about does not place any obligation on the officers of the Postmaster-General. It places an obligation on the Postmaster-General himself. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Well, that is how the thing stands, dealing with it on a purely legal plane. That is its legal 1616 effect, but whether that is the effect the Committee desire is another point. Subsection (4) says that the Act shall apply
in relation to the Post Office Savings Bank as if it were a trade or business carried on by the Postmaster General.The result of that, read in conjunction with subsection (1), shows that the obligation on the Post Office Savings Bank is an obligation placed upon the Postmaster-General himself. In that sense, when Section 4 of the 1861 Act is looked at more closely, there is no conflict between the two, but I would go further and say that even if there were a conflict it is quite clear that the terms of the latter Bill must be regarded as to that extent superseding the former Act. It was suggested that there should have been a specific repeal of the former Act, but I do not think that is possible, because the former Act remains in force for a great many purposes and it would not be desirable or possible to repeal it; but if to that extent there is a conflict, then the later Act would supersede the original one.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterThere is one question which I should like to put arising out of the very clear statement of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Does it follow from that that the only person entitled, therefore, to convey this information to the Inland Revenue is the Postmaster-General and that that prohibition will lie on all officers of the Post Office other than the Postmaster-General?
§ The Attorney-GeneralNo, the advice that I give is that the Postmaster-General is under an obligation and he can discharge that obligation through any person he authorises, including one of his own officers.
§ Several Hon. Members rose—
§ The Deputy-ChairmanWhen I stand up, hon. Members should sit down. We have had two hours' discussion on this Clause, and I think that it is time the Committee came to a decision.
§ Mr. R. J. Taylor rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 256.
1621| Division No. 103.] | AYES | [11.45 a.m. |
| Acland, Sir Richard | Freeman, John (Watford) | Monslow, W. |
| Adams, Richard | Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Moody, A. S. |
| Albu, A. H. | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | Morgan, Dr. H. B. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Ganley, Mrs. C. S. | Morley, R. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Gibson, C. W. | Morris. Percy (Swansea, W.) |
| Andersen, Alexander (Motherwell) | Gilzean, A. | Mort, D. L. |
| Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) | Gooch, E. G. | Moyle, A. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Mulley, F. W. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) | Murray, J. D. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Grenfell, D. R. | Nally, W. |
| Bacon, Miss. Alice | Grey, C. F. | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) |
| Baird, J. | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. |
| Balfour, A. | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | O'Brien, T. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. | Griffiths, William (Exchange) | Oldfield, W. H. |
| Bartley, P. | Gunter, R. J. | Oliver, G. H. |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Hale, Joseph (Rochdale) | Orbach, M. |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) | Padley, W. E. |
| Benson, G. | Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Dearne V'lly) |
| Beswick, F. | Hamilton, W. W. | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Hardy, E. A. | Pannell, T. C. |
| Bing, G. H. C. | Hargreaves, A. | Pargiter, G. A. |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Hayman, F. H. | Parker, J. |
| Boardman, H. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) | Paton, J. |
| Booth, A. | Herbison, Miss. M. | Pearson, A. |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Hewitson, Capt. M. | Peart, T. F. |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Hobson, C. R. | Popplewell, E. |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Holman, P. | Porter, G. |
| Brook, Dryden (Halifax) | Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth) | Pries, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) |
| Brooks, T. J. (Normanton) | Houghton, D. | Proctor, W. T. |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Hoy, J. | Pryde, D. J. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) | Pursey, Cmdr. H. |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Rankin, J. |
| Burke, W. A. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Rees, Mrs. D. |
| Burton, Miss. E. | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Reeves, J. |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Reid, Thomas (Swindon) |
| Callaghan, L. J. | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Reid, William (Camlachie) |
| Carmichael, J. | Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) | Rhodes, H. |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Champion, A. J. | Janner, B. | Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) |
| Chetwynd, G. R. | Jay, D. P. T. | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) |
| Clunie, J. | Jeger, George (Goole) | Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.) | Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) |
| Coldrick, W. | Jenkins, R. H. | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) |
| Collindridge, F. | Johnson, James (Rugby) | Royle, C. |
| Cook, T. F. | Jones, David (Hartlepool) | Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley |
| Cooper, Geoffrey (Middlesbrough, W.) | Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. |
| Cooper, John (Deptford) | Jones, William Elwyn (Conway) | Shurmer, P. L. E. |
| Corbel, Mrs. Freda (Peckham) | Keenan, W. | Silverman, Julius (Erdington) |
| Cove, W. G. | Kenyon, C. | Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Crawley, A. | King, Dr. H. M. | Slater, J. |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Kinghorn, Sqn. Ldr. E. | Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | Lee, Frederick (Newton) | Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) |
| Daines, P. | Lee, Miss. Jennie (Cannock) | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) | Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank |
| Darling, George (Hillsborough) | Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) | Sparks, J. A. |
| Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) | Steele, T. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Lewis, John (Bolton, W.) | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Lindgren, G. S. | Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. |
| Deer, G. | Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Longden, Fred (Small Heath) | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) |
| Dodds, N. N. | McAllister, G. | Stross, Dr. Burnett |
| Donnelly, D. | MacColl, J. E. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | McGhee, H. G. | Sylvester, G. O. |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John(W. Bromwich) | McInnes, J. | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) |
| Dye, S. | Mack, J. D. | Taylor, Robert (Morpeth) |
| Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | McKay, John (Wallsend) | Thomas, David (Aberdare) |
| Edelman, M. | Mackay, R. W. G. (Reading, N.) | Thomas, George (Cardiff) |
| Edwards, John (Brighouse) | McLeavy, F. | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) |
| Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) |
| Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) |
| Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.) | Timmons, J. |
| Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) | Mann, Mrs. Jean | Tomney, F. |
| Ewart, R. | Manuel, A. C. | Turner-Samuels, M. |
| Fernyhough, E. | Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn |
| Field, Capt. W. J. | Mathers, Rt. Hon. G. | Vernon, W. F. |
| Finch, H. J. | Mellish, R. J. | Viant, S. P. |
| Fletcher, Eric (Islington, E.) | Messer, F. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Follick, M. | Middleton, Mrs. L. | Watkins, T. E. |
| Foot, M. M. | Mikardo, Ian | Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Forman, J. C. | Mitchison, G. R. | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Wells, William (Walsall) | Willey, Octavius (Cleveland) | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| West, D. G. | Williams, David (Neath) | Wyatt, W. L. |
| White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) | Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) | Yates, V. F. |
| White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) | Younger, Hon. K. |
| Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) | |
| Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B. | Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Wilkins, W. A. | Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) | Mr. Hannan and Mr. Bowden. |
| Willey, Frederick (Sunderland) | Wise, F. J. |
| NOES | ||
| Aitken, W. I. | Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) | Maclean, Filzroy |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell | MacLeod, Iain (Enfield, W.) |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. (Pollok) | MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) |
| Arbuthnot, John | Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh) | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) |
| Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) | Gates, Maj. E. E. | Macpherson, Major Niall (Dumfries) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) | Glyn, Sir Ralph | Meitland, Comdr. J. W. |
| Astor, Hon. M. L. | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. | Manningham-Buller, R. E. |
| Baker, P. A. D. | Gridley, Sir Arnold | Marlowe, A. A. H. |
| Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. | Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) | Marples, A. E. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Grimston, Robert (Westbury) | Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) |
| Banks, Col. C. | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Marshall, Sidney (Sutton) |
| Baxter, A. B. | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) | Maude, Angus (Ealing, S.) |
| Beamish, Major Tufton | Harris, Reader (Heston) | Medlicott, Brig. F. |
| Bell, R. M. | Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) | Mellor, Sir John |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) | Molson, A. H. E. |
| Bennett, William (Woodside) | Harvie-Watt, Sir G. S. | Monckton. Sir Walter |
| Bevins, J. R. (Liverpool, Toxteth) | Hay, John | Morrison, John (Salisbury) |
| Birch, Nigel | Head, Brig. A. H. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Bishop, F. P. | Heald, Lionel | Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. |
| Black, C. W. | Heath, Edward | Nabarro, G. |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Nicholls, Harmar |
| Boothby, R. | Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. | Nicholson, G. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Higgs, J. M. C. | Nield, Basil (Chester) |
| Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) | Nugent, G. R. H. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Nutting, Anthony |
| Bracken, Rt. Hon. B. | Hirst, Geoffrey | Oakshott, H. D. |
| Braine, B. R. | Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) | Odey, G. W. |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Cr. G. (Bristol, N. W.) | Hope, Lord John | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) | Hopkinson, Henry | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | Hornsby-Smith, Miss. P. | Orr, Capt. L. P. S. |
| Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) | Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence | Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) |
| Browne, Jack (Govan) | Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) | Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Howard, Greville (St. Ives) | Peake, Rt. Hon. O. |
| Bullus, Wing Commander E. E. | Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) | Perkins, W. R. D. |
| Burden, F. A. | Hudson, Rt. Hon. Robert (Southport) | Peto, Brig. C. H. M. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) | Pickthorn, K. |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Walden) | Hutchinson, Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) | Pitman, I. J. |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) | Powell, J. Enoch |
| Carson, Hon. E. | Hutchison, Colonel James (Glasgow) | Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) |
| Channon, H. | Jennings, R. | Prior-Palmer, Brig. O. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. | Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) | Profumo, J. D. |
| Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) | Jones, A. (Hall Green) | Raikes, H. V. |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. | Rayner, Brig. R. |
| Colegate, A. | Kaberry, D. | Redmayne, M. |
| Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert (Ilford, S.) | Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) | Remnant, Hon. P. |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. | Roberts, Major Peter (Heeley) |
| Corbett, Lt.-Col. Uvedale (Ludlow) | Lambert, Hon. G. | Robertson, Sir David (Caithness) |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Langford-Holt, J. | Robson-Brown, W. |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. | Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Leather, E. H. C. | Roper, Sir Harold |
| Crouch, R. F. | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. | Ropner, Col. L. |
| Crowder, Capt. John (Finchley) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Russell, R. S. |
| Cundiff, F. W. | Lindsay, Martin | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Linstead, H. N. | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh, S.) | Llewellyn, D. | Scott, Donald |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (King's Norton) | Shepherd, William |
| Davies, Nigel (Epping) | Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) |
| de Chair, Somerset | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) | Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) |
| Deedes, W. F. | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. | Snadden, W. McN. |
| Digby, S. W. | Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.) | Soames, Capt. C. |
| Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Low, A. R. W. | Spearman, A. C. M. |
| Donner, P. W. | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth S.) | Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) | Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.) |
| Drayson, G. B. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard (N. Fylde) |
| Dugdale, Maj. Sir Thomas (Richmond) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. | Stevens, G. P. |
| Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. | McAdden, S. J. | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) |
| Dunglass, Lord | McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. | Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Eccles, D. M. | Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight) | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. |
| Erroll, F. J. | Mackeson, Brig. H. R. | Storey, S. |
| Fisher, Nigel | McKibbin, A. | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) |
| Fort, R. | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) | Studholme, H. G. |
| Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) | Maclay, Hon. John | Summers, G. S. |
| Sutcliffe, H. | Turner, H. F. L. | Webbe, Sir Harold |
| Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne) | Tweedsmuir, Lady | White, Baker (Canterbury) |
| Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) | Vane, W. M. F. | Williams, Charles (Torquay) |
| Teeling, W. | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Teevan, T. L. | Vosper, D. F. | Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) |
| Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) | Wills, G. |
| Thompson, Kenneth Pugh (Walton) | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone) | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Thompson, Lt.-Cmdr. R. (Croydon, W.) | Walker-Smith, D. C. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Thorneycroft, Peter (Monmouth) | Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. | Ward, Miss. I. (Tynemouth) | York, C. |
| Thorp, Brig. R. A. F. | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Tilney, John | Watkinson, H. | Major Conant and |
| Mr. T. G. D. Galbraith |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 257.
1625| Division No. 104.] | AYES | [11.55 a.m. |
| Acland, Sir Richard | Dye, S. | Keenan, W. |
| Adams, Richard | Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. | Kenyon, C. |
| Albu, A. H. | Edelman, M. | Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. |
| Allen, Arthur (Bosworth) | Edwards, John (Brighouse) | King, Dr. H. M. |
| Allen, Scholefield (Crewe) | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly) | Kinghorn, Sqn. Ldr. E. |
| Anderson, Alexander (Motherwell) | Edwards, W. J. (Stepney) | Lee, Frederick (Newton) |
| Anderson, Frank (Whitehaven) | Evans, Albert (Islington, S. W.) | Lee, Miss. Jennie (Cannock) |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Evans, Edward (Lowestoft) | Lever, Harold (Cheetham) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Evans, Stanley (Wednesbury) | Lever, Leslie (Ardwick) |
| Ayles, W. H. | Ewart, R. | Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.) |
| Bacon, Miss. Alice | Fernyhough, E. | Lewis, John (Bolton, W.) |
| Baird, J. | Field, Capt. W. S. | Lindgren, G. S. |
| Balfour, A. | Finch, H. J. | Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J. | Fletcher, Erie (Islington, E.) | Longden, Fred (Small Heath) |
| Bartley, P. | Follick, M. | McAllister, G. |
| Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. | Foot, M. M. | MacColl, J. E. |
| Benn, Wedgwood | Forman, J. C. | McGhee, H. G. |
| Benson, G. | Freeman, John (Watford) | McInnes, J. |
| Beswick, F. | Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Mack, J. D. |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw vale) | Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N. | McKay, John (Wallsend) |
| Bing, G. H. C. | Ganley, Mrs. C. S. | Mackay, R. W. G. (Reading, N.) |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Gibson, C. W. | McLeavy, F. |
| Boardman, H. | MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles) | |
| Booth, A. | Gilzean, A. | MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) |
| Bottomley, A. G. | Gooch, E. G. | Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Gordon-Walker, Rt. Hon. P. C. | Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Hudderfield, E.) |
| Braddock, Mrs. Elizabeth | Greenwood, Anthony (Rossendale) | Mann, Mrs. Jean |
| Brook, Dryden (Halifax) | Grenfell, D. R. | Manuel, A. C. |
| Brooks, T. J. (Normanton) | Grey, C. F. | Marquand, Rt. Hon. H. A. |
| Broughton, Dr. A. D. D. | Griffiths, David (Rother Valley) | Mathers, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. George (Belper) | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly) | Mellish, R. J. |
| Brown, Thomas (Ince) | Griffiths, William (Exchange) | Messer, F. |
| Burke, W. A. | Gunter, R. J. | Middleton, Mrs. L. |
| Burton, Miss. E. | Hale, Joseph (Rochdale) | Mikardo, Ian |
| Butler, Herbert (Hackney, S.) | Hall, John (Gateshead, W.) | Mitchison, G. R. |
| Callaghan, L. J. | Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil (Colne Valley) | Moeran, E. W. |
| Carmichael, J. | Hamilton, W. W. | Monslow, W. |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Hardy, E. A. | Moody, A. S. |
| Champion, A. J. | Hargreaves, A. | Morgan, Dr. H. B. |
| Chetwynd, G. R. | Hayman, F. H. | Morley, R. |
| Clunie, J. | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Rowley Regis) | Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Herbison, Miss. M. | Mort, D. L. |
| Coldrick, W. | Hewitson, Capt. M. | Moyle, A. |
| Collindridge, F. | Hobson, C. R. | Mulley, F. W. |
| Cook, T. F. | Holman, P. | Murray, J. D. |
| Cooper, Geoffrey (Middlesbrough, W.) | Holmes, Horace (Hemsworth) | Nally, W. |
| Cooper, John (Deptford) | Houghton, D. | Neal, Harold (Bolsover) |
| Corbet, Mrs. Freda (Peckham) | Hoy, J. | Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hudson, James (Ealing, N.) | O'Brien, T. |
| Craddock, George (Bradford, S.) | Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire) | Oldfield, W. H. |
| Crawley, A. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Oliver, G. H. |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Hynd, H. (Accrington) | Orbach, M. |
| Cullen, Mrs. A. | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Padley, W. E. |
| Daines, P. | Irvine, A. J. (Edge Hill) | Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Deame V'lly) |
| Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Irving, W. J. (Wood Green) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) |
| Darling, George (Hillsborough) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. | Pannell, T. C. |
| Davies, A. Edward (Stoke, N.) | Janner, B. | Pargiter, G. A. |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | Jay, D. P. T. | Parker, J. |
| de Freitas, Geoffrey | Jeger, George (Goole) | Paton, J. |
| Deer, G. | Jeger, Dr. Santo (St. Pancras, S.) | Pearson, A. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Jenkins, R. H. | Pearl, T. F. |
| Dodds, N. N. | Johnson, James (Rugby) | Popplewell, E. |
| Donnelly, D. | Jones, David (Hartlepool) | Porter, G. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Jones, Jack (Rotherham) | Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.) |
| Dugdale, Rt. Hon. John (W. Bromwich) | Jones, William Elwyn (Conway) | Proctor, W. T. |
| Pryde, D. J. | Sparks, J. A. | Webb, Rt. Hon. M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Pursey, Cmdr. H. | Steele, T. | Wells, Percy (Faversham) |
| Rankin, J. | Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.) | Wells, William (Walsall) |
| Rees, Mrs. D. | Stokes, Rt. Hon. R. R. | West, D. G. |
| Reeves, J. | Strachey, Rt. Hon. J. | White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint) |
| Reid, Thomas (Swindon) | Strauss, Rt. Hon. George (Vauxhall) | White, Henry (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Reid, William (Camlachie) | Stross, Dr. Barnett | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Rhodes, H. | Summerskill, Rt. Hon. Edith | Wilcock, Group Capt. C. A. B. |
| Robens, Rt. Hon. A. | Sylvester, G. O. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire) | Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield) | Willey, Frederick (Sunderland) |
| Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) | Taylor, Robert (Morpeth) | Willey, Octavius (Cleveland) |
| Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.) | Thomas, David (Aberdare) | Williams, David (Neath) |
| Rogers, George (Kensington, N.) | Thomas, George (Cardiff) | Williams, Rev. Llywelyn (Abertillery) |
| Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.) | Williams, Ronald (Wigan) |
| Royle, C. | Thomas, Ivor Owen (Wrekin) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton) |
| Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir Hartley | Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton) | Winterbottom, Ian (Nottingham, C.) |
| Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. | Thurtle, Ernest | Winterbottom, Richard (Brightside) |
| Shurmer, P. L. E. | Wise, F. J. | |
| Silverman, Julius (Erdington) | Timmons, J. | Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Silverman, Sydney (Nelson) | Tomney, F. | Wyatt, W. L. |
| Simmons, C. J. | Turner-Samuels, M. | Yates, V. F. |
| Slater, J. | Ungoed-Thomas, Sir Lynn | Younger, Hon. K. |
| Smith, Ellis (Stoke, S.) | Vernon, W. F. | |
| Smith, Norman (Nottingham, S.) | Viant, S. P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Sorensen, R. W. | Wallace, H. W. | Mr. Bowden and Mr. Hannan. |
| Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank | Watkins, T. E. | |
| NOES | ||
| Aitken, W. T. | Darling, Sir William (Edinburgh. S.) | Hutchison, Lt.-Com. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) |
| Alport, C. J. M. | Davidson, Viscountess | Hutchison, Colonel James (Glasgow) |
| Amery, Julian (Preston, N.) | Davies, N[...]el (Epping) | Jennings, R. |
| Arbuthnot, John | de Chair, Somerset | Johnson, Howard (Kemptown) |
| Ashton, H. (Chelmsford) | Deedes, W. F. | Jones, A. (Hall Green) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R. (Blackburn, W.) | Dodds-Parker, A. D. | Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. |
| Astor, Hon. M. L. | Donner, P. W. | Kaberry, D. |
| Baker, P. A. D. | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Malcolm | Kerr, H. W. (Cambridge) |
| Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M. | Drayson, G. B. | Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Dugdale, Maj. Sir Thomas (Richmond) | Lambert, Hon. G. |
| Banks, Col. C. | Duncan, Capt. J. A. L. | Lancaster, Col. C. G. |
| Baxter, A. B. | Dunglass, Lord | Langford-Holt, J. |
| Beamish, Major Tufton | Eccles, D. M. | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. |
| Bell, R. M. | Erroll, F. J. | Leather, E. H. C. |
| Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport) | Fisher, Nigel | Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. |
| Bennett, William (Woodside) | Fort, R. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. |
| Bevins, J. R. (Liverpool, Toxteth) | Fraser, Hon. Hugh (Stone) | Lindsay, Martin |
| Birch, Nigel | Fraser, Sir Ian (Morecambe & Lonsdale) | Linstead, H. N. |
| Bishop, F. P. | Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir David Maxwell | Llewellyn, D. |
| Black, C. W. | Galbraith, Cmdt. T. D. (Pollok) | Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (King's Norton) |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Galbraith, T. G. D. (Hillhead) | Lloyd, Maj. Guy (Renfrew, E.) |
| Boothby, R. | Garner-Evans, E. H. (Denbigh) | Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) |
| Bossom, A. C. | Gates, Maj. E. E. | Lockwood, Lt.-Col. J. C. |
| Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan) | Glyn, Sir Ralph | Longden, Gilbert (Herts, S. W.) |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. | Low, A. R. W. |
| Boyle, Sir Edward | Gridley, Sir Arnold | Lucas, Sir Jocelyn (Portsmouth, S.) |
| Bracken, Rt. Hon. B. | Grimston, Hon. John (St. Albans) | Lucas, P. B. (Brentford) |
| Braine, B. R. | Grimston, Robert (Wastbury) | Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh |
| Braithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.) | Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O. |
| Braithwaite, Lt.-Cr. G. (Bristol, N. W.) | Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.) | McAdden, S. J. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. | Harris, Reader (Heston) | McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. |
| Brooke, Henry (Hampstead) | Harvey, Air Cdre. A. V. (Macclesfield) | Macdonald, Sir Peter (I. of Wight) |
| Browne, Jack (Govan) | Harvey, Ian (Harrow, E.) | Mackeson, Brig. H. R. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Harvie-Watt, Sir G. S. | McKibbin, A. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Hay, John | McKie, J. H. (Galloway) |
| Burden, F. A. | Head, Brig. A. H. | Maclay, Hon. John |
| Butcher, H. W. | Heald, Lionel | Maclean, Fitzroy |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (Saffron Warden) | Heath, Edward | MacLeod, Iain (Enfield, W.) |
| Carr, Robert (Mitcham) | Henderson, John (Cathcart) | MacLeod, John (Ross and Cromarty) |
| Carson, Hon. E. | Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) |
| Channon, H. | Higgs, J. M. C. | Macpherson, Major Niall (Durnfriss) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S. | Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe) | Maitland, Comdr. J. W. |
| Clarke, Col. Ralph (East Grinstead) | Hill, Dr. Charles (Luton) | Manningham-Buller, R. E. |
| Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmouth, W.) | Hinchingbrooke, Viscount | Marlowe, A. A. H. |
| Colegate, A. | Hirst, Geoffrey | Marples, A. E. |
| Cooper, Sqn. Ldr. Albert (Ilford, S.) | Holmes, Sir Stanley (Harwich) | Marshall, Douglas (Bodmin) |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Hope, Lord John | Marshall, Sidney (Sutton) |
| Corbett, Lt.-Col. Uvedale (Ludlow) | Hopkinson, Henry | Maude, Angus (Ealing, S.) |
| Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne) | Hornsby-Smith, Miss. P. | Medlicott, Brig. F. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Florence | Mellor, Sir John |
| Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Howard, Gerald (Cambridgeshire) | Molson, A. H. E. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. | Howard, Greville (St. Ives) | Monckton, Sir Waiter |
| Crouch, R. F. | Hudson, Sir Austin (Lewisham, N.) | Morrison, John (Salisbury) |
| Crowder, Capt. John (Finchley) | Hudson, Rt. Hon. Robert (Southport) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Cundiff, F. W. | Hudson, W. R. A. (Hull, N.) | Mott-Redclyffe, C. E. |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Hutchinson, Geoffrey (Ilford, N.) | Nabarro, G. |
| Nicholls, Harmar | Roper, Sir Harold | Thorneycroft, Peter (Monmouth) |
| Nicholson, G. | Ropner, Col. L. | Thornton-Kemsley, Col. C. N. |
| Nield, Basil (Chester) | Russell, R. S. | Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F. |
| Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. | Ryder, Capt. R. E. D. | Tilney, John |
| Nugent, G. R. H. | Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur | Turner, H. F. L. |
| Nutting, Anthony | Scott, Donald | Tweedsmuir, Lady |
| Oakshott, H. D. | Shepherd, William | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Odey, G. W. | Smithers, Peter (Winchester) | Vaughan-Morgan, J. K. |
| O'Neill, Rt. Hen. Sir. Hugh | Smyth, Brig. J. G. (Norwood) | Vosper, D. F. |
| Ormsby-Gore, Hon. W. D. | Snadden, W. McN. | Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.) |
| Orr, Capt. L. P. S. | Soames, Capt. C. | Wakefield, Sir Wavell (Marylebone) |
| Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.) | Spearman, A. C. M. | Walker-Smith, D. C. |
| Orr-Ewing, Ian L. (Weston-super-Mare) | Spence, H. R. (Aberdeenshire, W.) | Ward, Hon. George (Worcester) |
| Peake, Rt. Hon. O. | Spens, Sir Patrick (Kensington, S.) | Ward, Miss. I. (Tynemouth) |
| Perkins, W. R. D. | Stanley, Capt. Hon. Richard (N. Fylde) | Waterhouse, Capt. Rt. Hon. C. |
| Peto, Brig. C. H. M. | Stevens, G. P. | Watkinson, H. |
| Pickthorn, K. | Steward, W. A. (Woolwich, W.) | Webbe, Sir Harold |
| Pitman, I. J. | Stewart, Henderson (Fife, E.) | Wheatley, Major M. J. (Poole) |
| Powell, J. Enoch | Stoddart-Scott, Col. M. | White, Baker (Canterbury) |
| Price, Henry (Lewisham, W.) | Storey, S. | Williams, Charles (Torquay) |
| Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.) | Strauss, Henry (Norwich, S.) | Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge) |
| Profumo, J. D. | Studholme, H. G. | Williams, Sir Herbert (Croydon, E.) |
| Raikes, H. V. | Summers, G. S. | Wills, G. |
| Rayner, Brig. R. | Sutcliffe, H. | Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro) |
| Redmayne, M. | Taylor, Charles (Eastbourne) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Remnant, Hon. P. | Taylor, William (Bradford, N.) | Wood, Hon. R. |
| Roberts, Major Peter (Heeley) | Teeling, W. | York, C. |
| Robertson, Sir David (Caithness) | Teevan, T. L. | |
| Robinson, Roland (Blackpool, S.) | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Robson-Brown, W. | Thompson, Kenneth Pugh (Walton) | Major Conant and Mr. Digby. |
| Rodgers, John (Sevenoaks) | Thompson, R. H. M. (Croydon, W.) |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ To report Progress; and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Wilkins.]
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.
§ House at its rising this day to adjourn till Monday next.—[Mr. Wilkins.]