HC Deb 16 February 1949 vol 461 cc1153-9

Amendment proposed: In page 2, line 43, at the end, to add: (7) Where the rent reserved under the terms of a contract of tenancy is reduced under this Section such contract of tenancy shall be deemed to have been terminated upon the making of the determination and the tenant shall he deemed to retain posession of such dwelling-house thereafter by virtue of the provisions of the principal Acts."—[Mr. Walker-Smith.]

Question again proposed. "That those words be there added."

3.45 p.m.

Mr. John Foster (Northwich)

The argument of the Minister of Health upon this Amendment was that the rent tribunal would have assessed the new rent on the basis of its being a contractual tenancy. He then said that, if the Amendment were carried and a contractual tenancy were turned into a statutory tenancy, that would be unfair to the tenant because the rent tribunal would have fixed the rent on the basis of its being a contractual tenancy, and that that was one of the circumstances which the tribunal would have taken into account. That, I think, represents fairly the Minister's argument as reported in the "unofficial" Report.

That argument, however, contains a fallacy, for, if the Amendment were carried, the tribunal would know that the reduction of rent would turn a contractual tenancy into a statutory tenancy. That is one of the circumstances it would take into account. It would be quite imaginative on the part of the tribunal to deal with a contractual tenancy which they knew was being turned into a statutory tenancy and then to say, "We are not paying attention to that. It is not one of the circumstances we take into account and, therefore, we have formed a rent on the basis that it is a contractual tenancy." That example shows how desirable it is to specify to the tribunal the circumstances which they should take into account.

Apparently, had the Minister been in the Chair at this imaginary tribunal—supposing the Amendment is accepted—he would have said, "Oh, no. The tenant gets the advantage of a contractual tenancy. Therefore, we fix his rent at x pounds a year," knowing perfectly well that the Act, if amended, would have turned the rent into that of a statutory tenancy. That attitude must be a fallacy. How can a tribunal be deemed to decide according to all the circumstances of the case and not take into account the very effect of their decision? This shows that one of the Minister's arguments against the Amendment is ill-founded.

I agree that, in one sense, there are differences and disadvantages between a contractual and a statutory tenancy. We on this side, however, say that if the tenant has gone to the tribunal and has invoked a reduction of the contractual rent payable, then it shall be on the same footing as that of a statutory tenant, because he has invoked the powers of the rent tribunal and the whole machinery of the Rent Restrictions Acts; and it would have been thought, quite rightly, that in that case the statutory tenant has sufficient protection. He has the protection of Section 15 of the 1920 Act, which gives him all the advantages arid conditions of the former tenancy.

It is very significant that the Minister of Health should think that a tribunal sitting to decide how much a rent should be should disregard the state of the law under which the tribunal is sitting. In other words, if he thinks that a rent tribunal deciding the amount of a rent will pay no attention to the fact that it is to be turned into a statutory tenancy, I can well imagine another chairman taking a different view. We have always felt there should be some guidance for these chairmen to lay down the rules on which they should decide. Otherwise the Minister of Health and the chairmen would fall into the same error and disregard some of the cases he is so fond of quoting.

Mr. Emrys Roberts (Merionethshire)

I supported the Amendment which provided that some guidance should be given tribunals in reaching their decisions, but I do not think this Amendment has anything to do with that. The point is that by reason of the reference the tenancy is changed from a contractual to a statutory tenancy. To decide whether that is so, we have to look at the essential difference between a contractual tenancy and a statutory tenancy. The essential difference is that in a statutory tenancy the landlord can take steps to evict a tenant without giving notice to quit. Why should the tenant who has invoked his rights under the Act be deprived of the protection of the notice to quit and given a lower grade, a more personal kind of tenancy? For that reason I hope the Amendment will be accepted.

Mr. Foster

Does the hon. Member realise that in many contractual tenancies no notice to quit is necessary?

Mr. Roberts

Yes, but notice to quit is always necessary when a contractual tenancy is still in being.

The Minister of Health (Mr. Aneurin Bevan)

I think this matter was explored quite sufficiently last night and there is no reason why we should repeat what was said last night. I cannot understand why if a tenant has applied to the tribunal and the tribunal have decided that the rent should be reduced as in the case mentioned in the Amendment, the tenant should lose whatever rights there might be under the contractual tenancy. That seems quite unfair. In any case, one would assume that if the tribunal take into account the fact that the contractual tenancy should cease to exist that itself would be expressed in the rent. The landlord would lose in that way. It can be taken into account the other way and I should think it much better for the tribunal to assess what the reasonable rent would be in the light of the contractual

tenancy remaining and that would be the more just and equitable attitude.

Amendment negatived.

The Chairman

I have to inform the Committee that in my opinion the principle of Clause 1 and any matters arising thereon have been adequately discussed in the course of Debate on the various Amendments proposed thereto, and I therefore propose, in accordance with the Standing Order, to put the Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," forthwith.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot (Scottish Universities)

While not, of course, contesting your Ruling, Major Milner, and not suggesting that a general wide Debate should be opened up, because I think the Clause has been discussed in detail, we should certainly wish to put the three points, that retrospective legislation is extended—

The Chairman

I am sorry, but I cannot allow the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to continue. The Standing Order instructs me to put the Question forthwith.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

We are not in any way debating it. It is simply on the point of Order. We should have thought it would be more convenient for those reading the long Debate, as indeed the slight contretemps about the previous entry in HANSARD has shown—this is a point of Order and I am not arguing the merit—it may have been for the convenience of those reading the long and complicated Debates to have, very succinctly, the points of difference stated between us on each side, but naturally, we bow to your Ruling.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 244; Noes, 119.

Division No. 60.] AYES [3.55 p.m.
Adams, Richard (Balham) Bechervaise, A. E. Byers, Frank
Albu, A. H. Benson, G. Carmichael, James
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale) Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Alpass, J. H Bevan, Rt. Hon E. (Wandsworth, C.) Champ on, A. J
Anderson, A. (Motherwell) Bing, G. H. C. Chetwynd, G. R.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Binns, J. Cocks, F. S.
Attewell, H. C. Blackburn, A. R. Coldrick, W
Austin, H. Lewis Blenkinsop, A. Collick, P.
Awbery, S. S. Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge) Collindridge, F.
Ayles, W. H. Bramall, E A. Colman, Miss G. M.
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Brook, D (Halifax) Corlett, Dr. J.
Bacon, Miss A. Brown, T. J. (Ince) Cove, W. G.
Balfour, A. Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Crawley, A.
Barton, C. Burke, W. A. Cullen, Miss
Daggar, G. Kirby, B. V. Rees-Williams, D. R.
Daines, P Kirkwood, Rt. Hon. D. Reeves, J
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) Lang, G. Reid, T. (Swindon)
Davies, Edward (Burslem) Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J. Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)
Davies, Harold (Leek) Lee, F. (Hulme) Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) Roberts, W (Cumberland, N)
Deer, G. Leslie, J. R. Robertson, J, J, (Berwick)
Delargy, H. J. Levy, B. W. Rogers, G H. R.
Dodds, N. N. Lewis, A W. J. (Upton) Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Driberg, T. E. N. Lewis, J (Bolton) Royle, C.
Dumpleton, C W. Lipson, D. L. Scollan, T.
Edelman, M Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Scott-Elliot, W.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. N. (Caerphilly) Logan, D. G. Segal, Dr S.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) Longden, F Shackleton, E. A A
Evans, Albert (Islington, W.) McAdam, W. Sharp, Granville
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) McAllister, G. Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Ewart, R McEntee, V La T. Silverman, S. S (Nelson)
Fairhurst, F. McGhee, H G Simmons, C. J
Fernyhough, E McGovern, J. Skeffington, A. M.
Fletcher, E G. M. (Islington, E.) Mack, J. D Skinnard, F. W
Follick, M. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Smith, H. N (Nottingham, S.)
Foot, M. M McKinlay, A. S Smith, S. H (Hull, S.W.)
Forman, J. C. Maclean, N. (Govan) Snow, J W
Fraser, T (Hamilton) McLeavy, F. Sorensen, R. W
Freeman, Peter (Newport) MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling) Sparks, J. A
Gaitskell, Rt. Hon. H. T. N Mainwaring, W H. Stross, Dr B.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Stubbs, A. E.
Gibbins, J Mallalieu, J P. W. (Huddersfield) Summerskill, Rt Hon. Ed[...]
Gilzean, A Mann, Mrs. J Swingler, S
Glanville, J E. (Consett) Manning, Mrs. L (Epping) Sylvester, G O
Grey C. F Mathers, Rt. Hon George Symonds, A. L.
Grierson, E. Medland, H. M Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Mellish, R J Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet)
Griffiths, W. D (Moss Side) Middleton, Mrs. L. Thomas, D E. (Aberdare)
Gunter, R. J Mikardo, Ian Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Guy. W. H. Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Haire, John E. (Wycombe) Mitchison, G. R Thurtle, Ernest
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col R Monslow, W. Timmons, J
Hardman, D. R Moody, A S. Titterington, M. F.
Hardy, E A. Morley, R Tolley, L.
Harrison, J. Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) Tomlinson, Rt Hon. G.
Haworth, J. Morrison Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.) Usborne, Henry
Henderson, Rt. Hn A. (Kingswinford) Mort, D L. Vernon, Maj W F.
Hewitson, Capt M Moyle, A. Wadsworth, G
Hobson, C R Murray, J D. Walker, G. H.
Holman, P Naylor, T E. Wallace, G D. (Chislehurst)
Holmes, H E (Hemsworth) Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Wallace, H W (Walthamstow. E.)
Horabin, T L O'Brien, T. Watkins, T. E.
Hoy J. Olivet, G H Watson, W M.
Hubbard, T Paget, R T. Webb, M (Bradford, C)
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) Paling, Rt Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth) Wells, P. L (Faversham)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Paling, W. T (Dewsbury) Wells, W T (Watsall)
Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Parker, J West, D. G.
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Parkin, B T. Wheatley, Rt. Hn John (Edinb'gh, E.)
Hynd, J B. (Attercliffe) Paton, Mrs. F (Rushcliffe) White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Irvine, A. J (Liverpool) Paton, J. (Norwich) Whiteley, Rt Hon W.
Janner, B. Pearson, A Wilkins, W. A.
Jeger, G. (Winchester) peart T. F Willey, F T. (Sunderland)
Jenkins, R. H Piratin, P. Willey, O G. (Cleveland)
Johnston, Douglas Popplewell, E. Williams, J L. (Kelvingrove)
Jones, Rt. Hon. A C. (Shipley) Porter, E. (Warrington) Williams, Ronald (Wigan)
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Porter, G. (Leeds) Williams, W R. (Heston)
Jones, P Asterley (Hitchin) Price, M. Philips Willis, E.
Keenan, W Proctor, W. T. Wills, Mrs E. A
Kenyon, C Pryde, D. J Woods, G S
King, E. M. Pursey, Comdr. H. Yates, V F
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E. Randall, H. E.
Kinley, J Ranger, J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Mr. Hannan and Mr. Bowden.
NOES
Amory, D. Heathcoat Clarke, Col. R. S. Drayson, G. B.
Assheton, Rt. Hon R. Conant, Maj R. J E. Drewe, C.
Birch, Nigel Cooper-Key, E. M. Eccles, D. M.
Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U (Ludlow) Erroll, Lieut-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter
Boothby, R. Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. Erroll, F. J.
Bossom, A C. Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E. Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Bower, N. Crowder, Capt. John E. Foster, J. G. (Northwich)
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Cuthbert, W. N. Fraser, H. C P (Stone)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G Darling, Sir W Y. Galbraith, Cmdr T D (Pollok)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Davidson, Viscountess Galbraith, T G. D. (Hillhead)
Bullock, Capt. M. Digby, S W Gammans, L D
Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n) Dodds-Parker, A D. Glyn, Sir R
Challen, C. Donner, P W Gomme-Duncan, Col. A
Channon, H Dower, Col A. V G, (Penrith) Grimston, R. V.
Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. Roberson, Sir D. (Streatham)
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) Robinson, Roland
Harvey, Air-Comdre, A. V. McFarlane, C. S Ropner, Col. L.
Head, Brig. A. H. Mackeson, Brig H. R. Scott, Lord W.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W.
Henderson, John (Cathcart) Maclay, Hon. J. S. Smithers, Sir W
Hinchingbrooke, Viscount MacLeod, J. Spearman, A C. M.
Hogg, Hon. Q. Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley) Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.
Hollis, M C. Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.
Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin gh, W.) Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Strauss, Henry (English Universities)
Hutchison, Col J. R. (Glasgow, C.) Manningham-Buller, R. E Sutcliffe, H.
Jarvis, Sir J. Marlowe, A. A. H. Tayler, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)
Jeffreys, General Sir G. Mellor, Sir J. Teeling, William
Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W. Molson, A. H. E. Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)
Keeling, E. H. Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Kerr, Sir J. Graham Mott-Radclyffe, C. E. Thorp, Brigadier R. A. F
Lambert, Hon. G. Nicholson, G Touche, G. C.
Lancaster, Col. C. G. Osborne, C. Vane, W. M. F.
Langford-Holt, J. Peto, Brig. C. H. M. Ward, Hon. G, R.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Pickthorn, K. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Lindsay, M (Solihull) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Willtoughby de Eresby, Lord
Linstead, H. N. Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Low, A. R. W. Price-White, Li.-Col. D. Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)
Lucas, Major Sir J. Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Ramsay, Maj. S. TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C. Roberts, H. (Handsworth) Mr. Studholme and
McCallum, Maj. D Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall) Colonel Wheatley.