HC Deb 21 June 1948 vol 452 cc1067-77

  1. (1) As and from the first day of October, nineteen hundred and forty-eight from the customs duty imposed by Section two of the Finance Act, 1928, there shall be allowed a rebate of ninepence per gallon in respect of any light oils which are used as fuel for flying machines employed in flying club activities within the United Kingdom.
  2. (2) For the purposes of this Section a flying club shall be taken to mean a body of persons certified by the Secretary of State for Air to have come together for the purpose of learning to pilot or improving their proficiency in 1068 piloting flying machines, bearing the expenses thus incurred themselves, the flying machines being used solely for these purposes and not for the carriage of passengers or goods for hire or reward or for any other purposes other than those specified.—[Sir P. Macdonald.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Sir Peter Macdonald (Isle of Wight)

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The purpose of this Clause is to remove the tax on light fuel oils for flying clubs. I have great hopes it will be accepted for more than one reason. In the first place, at an earlier stage of the Bill an Amendment was put down with similar intention which had a much wider scope and it was rejected on the grounds that it went too far and was impossible to administer. In his reply on that occasion the Financial Secretary to the Treasury held out great hopes for the flying clubs. He said that if there were any case to be made at all, there was one for the flying clubs. I maintain that that is substantially true, not only because of the injustice of the tax but because of the importance of the part which flying clubs play in our national defence.

I remember long before the last war battling in this House against the Governments of the day on behalf of the flying clubs. I saw the clubs grow up almost from childhood, and at the beginning of this war there were many clubs in this country with about 2,000 small aircraft, and several thousand people in humble circumstances who were trained or were being trained as pilots in these clubs. I maintain that if it had not been for the training received by these young men—bank clerks, civil servants, and industrialists, those people in humble circumstances who had their Saturday afternoons off and spent that time training themselves to be pilots—and if it had not been for these clubs we should never have won the Battle of Britain.

I had the job at the beginning of the war of forming a fighter squadron of the Royal Air Force. We had to recruit first from the Regular pilots of the Royal Air Force to form the nucleus of the squadron. They came chiefly—or very largely—from the Auxiliary Air Force and from people trained in the flying clubs, people who were keen, and who had trained themselves to fly. There are many people who think that the first battle the Royal Air Force fought in the war was the Battle of Britain. It was not. The first real battle the Royal Air Force had to fight was the Battle of Dunkirk, where a great many of our Regular Royal Air Force pilots were lost. When we came to the Battle of Britain, although we had had time to train some pilots, the fact remained that a great many of the pilots who fought in that battle were men who were recruited from the flying clubs of Britain and the Auxiliary Air Force.

Of course, when the war broke out the clubs disappeared. The aircraft were requisitioned by the Royal Air Force, and those which were not requisitioned rusted on the ground, with the result that when the war ended the flying clubs had to start from scratch, without aircraft, with no nucleus, except of those people who were prepared to start again and to pay for their training. That is the situation today. Many clubs have sprung up, and there is great enthusiasm among the young people. However, it is a very costly business indeed for a young man who wants to train himself to fly today. This 9d. a gallon on petrol costs 5s. an hour in flying training, and the young man learning to fly has to bear it himself unless the club can bear it for him.

Therefore, I hope on the grounds of equity, on the grounds of strategy, and on every possible ground, the Chancellor will meet this Clause sympathetically. In the war as Minister of Aircraft Production he met those young people who were trained in the old flying clubs; he knows them, and he knows their merits; and he knows how unfortunately the flying clubs are placed today. Therefore, I hope he will accept this new Clause.

Mr. George Ward (Worcester)

I beg to second the Motion.

After the Debate on 7th June the Association of British Aero Clubs, which is the national association of the flying clubs in this country, was so encouraged by what the Financial Secretary said on that occasion that they wrote a letter to him in these terms: During the Debate on the light oils tax in the House of Commons yesterday you were good enough to hold out some hope of positive assistance for the flying clubs, having regard to the strength of their case. Because the plight of the clubs is progressively worsening, the need for such help is a matter of urgency. Of all affected by the tax, the clubs are, without question, the least able to stand the strain, and that has been endorsed by all sections of the House. … We would, therefore, ask that this possibility should be examined as an immediate step, apart from other measures which may be contemplated. We have great hopes, like the Association of Aero Clubs, that in the intervening period the Chancellor has been able to examine this matter, and is prepared to give this concession.

One of the main arguments advanced on that occasion by the Financial Secretary was that the tax did not add appreciably to the operating costs of the various users concerned; but that is certainly not true of the flying clubs, because in their case this tax accounts for no less than 5s. an hour of the flying costs, which is a considerable burden for pilots flying light aircraft. It is no valid argument to say that because a concession to flying clubs might open the door to demands from other people, the concession cannot be granted. After all, these are surely matters which should be considered on their own merits. For example, the Chancellor has been prepared to grant certain concessions in regard to Purchase Tax, and if that argument does not apply in that instance there is no reason why it should apply in this.

This is no party point, nor would the granting of this concession benefit only a limited section of the community. On the contrary, I would remind those hon. Members who may still be tempted to look upon flying clubs as institutions established solely for the use and benefit of a small rather wealthy section of the community, that before the war among the most enthusiastic, best run and flourishing of all the flying clubs in the country was one started and run by London bus drivers and conductors, who derived great enjoyment and benefit from the club. When the Civil Air Guard was formed in 1938, the financial arrangements allowed people to fly for as little as 2s. 6d. to 10s. an hour, and the response to that scheme was so enormous that it proved beyond doubt that club flying appealed to a very large section of the public, provided the costs were kept sufficiently low. At present, however, it is quite impossible for any club to charge less than £2 10s. to £3 an hour, which limits the people who can use these clubs to a very small number indeed. Of these charges, 5s. an hour is attributable to this petrol tax alone.

If the Chancellor grants this concession it would have three effects: first, it would show that the Government are prepared to do what they can to help these clubs; secondly, it would encourage many clubs to keep going, who otherwise would certainly have to disappear, and are already doing so; and thirdly, it would make club flying available to a very much larger number of people than at present. Club flying is not, I must emphasise, just a hobby for a few enthusiasts. It is at once a healthy recreation of absorbing interest, and a useful and economical method of building up a large reserve of potential air crews in case of emergency. That point has already been very well dealt with by my hon. and gallant Friend, but I must re-emphasise it; I think the potential air crew aspect was amply proved before the war, when the flying clubs more than justified the financial assistance then given to them by the Government.

9.30 p.m.

I believe that there is a greater need for flying club facilities today than ever there has been before. Many young men have come out of the Royal Air Force where they learned to fly, and they would like to keep up flying in their spare time. At the moment, they cannot possibly do so because it is much too expensive. There are others who did not get the opportunity in the Royal Air Force of learning to fly and they would like to learn now. Again, the door is closed to them. I believe that the country, and not only the men but the women as well, are more airminded today than ever before, as a result of their friends and relations having fought in the Royal Air Force during the war.

Flying produces a comradeship which is stronger, I believe, than that produced by any other activity that I know of. Young men and women who take up flying at flying clubs are linked by a common interest and they find that the club also provides a social life and many social activities which are highly valuable and beneficial to them. It would be a great pity if these clubs had to disappear because they could not keep going in face of financial difficulty. If the Government will grant this small concession tonight I feel sure that the clubs will be encouraged to keep going. It will be a practical proof that the Government are prepared to help them.

Sir S. Cripps

I think this matter was freely discussed on the Committee stage. I do not think anybody doubts the obvious desirability of encouraging flying among the young men of this country or denies the very good work indeed which has been done by the flying clubs, especially in the period which preceded the war. It is to that general agreement that the hon. Gentleman who moved the Clause referred when he spoke of what the Financial Secretary had said during the Committee stage. That is agreed by all of us, but it does not mean therefore that one should use a tax of this kind in order to give a subsidy to a particular type of user of the material. In fact, I venture to suggest that it is a thoroughly bad principle to use taxes of this nature in order to subsidise particular industries, activities or whatever it may be. If those activities deserve and require a subsidy, that should be given in an open fashion in order to encourage those activities.

Sir P. Macdonald

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give us an assurance that in lieu of a tax concession, he will help flying clubs in some other way?

Sir S. Cripps

That is a matter for the Minister of Civil Aviation. I can say this: I have always been very sympathetic to the flying clubs and I am no less sympathetic now than I have always been.

Mr. Ward

Surely rowing clubs receive a subsidy by paying no Purchase Tax on their boats?

Sir S. Cripps

I am afraid that that is not quite an analogy, because Purchase Tax is fixed at different rates upon different articles. The petrol tax is not fixed at different rates on different users of petrol, which would be inequitable. That has never been done, and we certainly cannot start doing that now.

Mr. Eccles

Was it not fair practice for the old age pensioners to receive cheap cigarettes?

Sir S. Cripps

That is certainly a very extreme case which some people thought was not good practice, but the sympathy in their hearts persuaded them that in those circumstances it was desirable though it was not good practice. I cannot think that the statement of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Ward) that this was going to save the flying clubs was anything but a slight exaggeration. He referred to the figures of £2 10s. and £3 an hour which would be charged but I cannot feel that a reduction of the figure as he suggested would make so vital a difference to the flying clubs. I quite appreciate that every little helps and that they would no doubt be very glad to get a remission—

Mr. Ward

They would at least feel that the Government were doing something to help them. At the moment they feel that nobody is doing anything to help them.

Sir S. Cripps

I have said that the person to help them is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer with the petrol tax but the Minister of Civil Aviation, if he feels that is the right way to proceed. I therefore very much regret that, however great our sympathy and our desire that these clubs should flourish and provide training and enjoyment for the people who resort to them, we cannot assist them in this way.

Mr. E. P. Smith

I do not think any hon. Member in any part of the House can have been very satisfied with what has fallen from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He reminded me rather of the days when I was a small boy and went eel-bobbing. When one went eel-bobbing, one put one's mop of worms into the river and, when one caught an eel, one threw it over one's shoulder, it fell on the bank and then one tried to catch it I do not think anybody has succeeded tonight in catching the right hon. and learned Gentleman. If the wording of this Clause is inadequate and the safeguards which it provides are inadequate, I trust that on consideration some form of words may be found to give effect to the intention behind the Clause. I speak for the South-East corner of Kent where we had flying clubs in prewar days and learned their value. Indeed; we saw their value with our own eyes during the terrific days of Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain in 1940.

I have had put into my hands a little journal or magazine or newspaper called "Forward," which has upon its front page an article written by the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr Emrys Hughes). As far as I have been able to scan that article—and I have only done so quite briefly—it seems that he argues regretfully but cogently in favour of the possibility of a future war. I do not share that point of view—certainly by no means in the immediate future—but obviously people of wide experience like himself think of it as a possibility. That being the case, every assistance and every support ought to be given to these flying clubs. For those of us who do not believe in the inevitability of another war, I would still say that air-mindedness is as vital a thing for peace under modern conditions as it is for war. If the new Clause verbally does not meet with the approval of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I trust he may give it further consideration, and see whether it is not possible to give assistance to these clubs in some such direction.

Captain Crookshank

I do not know whether my hon. Friends mean to divide the House on this Clause or not, but I think the Chancellor's reply was somewhat disappointing because their object was to ask the Government to give some sort of encouragement to this deserving movement. While the right hon. and learned Gentleman expressed his approval of what the clubs did, he was shy about any help being offered to them. He merely said that if help was given, this was not the way to do it, that it was the job of the Minister of Civil Aviation. He, of course, has only been there a few days and has apparently not made any application to the Chancellor and, therefore, there is no help obtainable at present.

It may well be that this is not the ideal way of helping the flying clubs. I personally am not sufficiently up in details to know, but it is the only way in which we on this side of the House can put it forward because we can only do it by a reduction of expenditure. It is impossible for us to move that a grant should be paid to these clubs—or a subsidy, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to imply was possible—because we cannot come forward with proposals for extra taxation. Therefore, this is the only way in which we can call attention to the matter, and we are sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has not been more forthcoming because we feel that these flying clubs have a great part to play and should be encouraged as far as possible by everybody who has the interests of flying and youth at heart.

Mr. Emrys Hughes (South Ayrshire)

I should not have intervened in this Debate but for the remarks of the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith). However, I certainly see the cogency of the argument that, if there is to be another war, flying clubs need to be encouraged. It rather surprised me to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer putting his point

of view when, apparently, the purpose of the addresses which are being given to the organisations interested in these flying clubs is stated definitely to be preparation for a war against our potential enemy which appears to be Soviet Russia, and I fail to understand—

Mr. Speaker

Foreign affairs and flying clubs are different subjects. The hon. Member had better stick to flying clubs and not introduce Soviet Russia in this Debate.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 244.

Division No. 234.] AYES. [9.43 p.m.
Agnew, Cmdr. P. G. Hollis, M. C. Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Baldwin, A. E. Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich) Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)
Bennett, Sir P. Howard, Hon. A. Rayner, Brig. R.
Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)
Bowen, R. Jeffreys, General Sir G. Roberts, P. G. (Ecclesall)
Bower, N. Kendall, W. D. Ropner, Col. L.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Kerr, Sir J. Graham Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Braithwaite, Lt.-Comdr. J. G. Lambert, Hon. G. Savory, Prof. D. L.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Langford-Holt, J. Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)
Bullock, Capt. M. Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H. Smith, E. P. (Ashford)
Byers, Frank Lipson, D. L. Smithers, Sir W.
Challen, C. Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral) Spearman, A. C. M.
Channon, H. Lucas, Major Sir J. Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.
Clarke, Col. R. S. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)
Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. McCorquodale, Rt. Hon. M. S. Studholme, H. G.
Crowder, Capt. John E. Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) Sutcliffe, H.
Cuthbert, W. N. Mackeson, Brig. H. R. Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Davies, Rt. Hn. Clement (Montgomery) McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Rigby, S. W. Maclay, Hon. J. S. Turton, R. H.
Dodds-Parker, A. D. Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) Vane, W. M. F.
Drayson, G. B. Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Wadsworth, G.
Drewe, C. Marples, A. E. Wakefield, Sir W. W.
Eccles, D. M. Marshall, D. (Bodmin) Walker-Smith, D.
Elliot, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Walter Mellor, Sir J. Ward, Hon. G. R.
Fletcher, W. (Bury) Molson, A. H. E. Watt, Sir G. S. Harvie
Fraser H. C. P. (Stone) Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) Webbe, Sir H. (Abbey)
Fraser, Sir I. (Lansdale) Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cir'cester) Wheatley, Colonel M. J. (Dorset, E.)
Glyn, Sir R. Never-Spence, Sir B. White, J. B. (Canterbury)
Granville, E. (Eye) Nicholson, G. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Grimston, R. V. Noble, Comdr. A. H. P. Young, Sir A. S. L. (Partick)
Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C. Orr-Ewing, I. L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hinchingbrooke, Viscount Pickthorn, K. Major Conant and
Hogg, Hon. Q. Pitman, I. J. Major Ramsay.
NOES.
Adams, Richard (Balham) Benson, G. Champion, A. J.
Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Berry, H. Chetwynd, G. R.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. Blackburn, A. R. Cluse, W. S.
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Blenkinsop, A. Cobb, F. A.
Alpass, J. H. Blyton, W. R. Cocks, F. S.
Attewell, H. C. Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Coldrick, W.
Austin, H. Lewis Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl. Exch'ge) Collindridge, F.
Awbery, S. S. Braddock, T. (Mitcham) Collins, V. J.
Ayles, W. H. Bramall, E. A. Colman, Miss G. M.
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Bacon, Miss A. Brown, George (Belper) Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Baird, J. Brawn, T. J. (Ince) Cove, W. G.
Balfour, A. Bruce, Maj. D. W. T. Crawley, A.
Barstow, P. G. Buchanan, Rt. Hon. G. Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S.
Barton, C. Burden, T. W. Daggar, G.
Battley, J. R. Butter, H. W. (Hackney, S.) Daines, P.
Bechervaise, A. E. Callaghan, James Davies, Harold (Leek)
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J. Castle, Mrs. B. A. Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Key, Rt. Hon. C. W. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Deer, G. Kinley, J. Rogers, G. H. R.
Delargy, H. J. Kirby, B. V. Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Diamond, J. Lang, G. Royle, C.
Dobbie, W. Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J. Scott-Elliott, W.
Dodds, N. N. Lee, F. (Hulme) Segal, Dr. S.
Donovan, T. Leslie, J. R. Sharp, Granville
Driberg, T. E. N. Lewis, J. (Bolton) Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich) Lindgren, G. S. Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St Helens)
Dye, S. Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Shurmer, P.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C. Longdon, F. Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Lyres, A. W. Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) McEntee, V. La T. Simmons, C. J.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft) McGhee, H. G. Skeffington, A. M.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) McGovern, J. Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.
Ewart, R. Mack, J. D. Skinnard, F. W.
Fairhurst, F. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Smith, C. (Colchester)
Farthing, W. J. McLeavy, F. Smith, Ellis (Stoke)
Fernyhough, E. Macpherson, T. (Romford) Sorensen, R. W.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg) Soskice, Rt. Hon. Sir Frank
Follick, M. Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield) Sparks, J. A.
Foot, M. M. Mann, Mrs. J. Steele, T.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton) Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Stross, Dr. B.
Freeman, J. (Watford) Marquand, H. A. Stubbs, A. E.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S. Mathers, Rt. Hon. George Sylvester, G. O.
Gibbers, J. Mellish, R. J. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Gibson, C. W. Messer, F. Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Glanville, J. E. (Consett) Middleton, Mrs. L. Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Grenfell, D. R. Mikardo, Ian Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Grey, C. F. Mitchison, G. R. Thurtle, Ernest
Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley) Monslow, W. Tolley, L.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side) Moody, A. S. Turner-Samuels, M.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden Morgan, Dr. H. B. Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Gunter, R. J. Morley, R. Viant, S. P.
Guy, W. H. Moyle, A. Walker, G. H.
Haire, John E. (Wycombe) Murray J. D. Warbey, W. N.
Hale, Leslie Nally, W. Watkins, T. E.
Hall, Rt. Hon. Glenvil Neal, H. (Clay Cross) Weitzman, D.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Wells, P. L. (Faversham)
Hannan, W. (Maryhill) Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby) Wells, W. T. (Walsall)
Hardy, E. A. Noel-Buxton, Lady West, D. G.
Harrison, J. O'Brien, T. Wheatley, Rt. Hn. John (Edinb'gh, E.)
Haworth, J. Oldfield, W. H. White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Oliver, G. H. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.
Herbison, Miss M. Palmer, A. M. F. Wigg, George
Holman, P. Parkin, B. T. Wilkins, W. A.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)
Horabin, T. L. Pearson, A. Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
House, G. Peart, T. F. Williams, R. W. (Wigan)
Hoy, J. Plaits-Mills, J. F. F. Williams, W. R. (Heston)
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) Popplewell, E. Willis, E.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayr) Porter, E. (Warrington) Wills, Mrs. E. A.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Porter, G. (Leeds) Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J.
Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) Price, M. Philips Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Proctor, W. T. Woods, G. S.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Pursey, Comdr. H. Wyatt, W.
Irvine, A. J. (Liverpool) Randall, H. E. Yates, V. F.
Irving, W. J. (Tottenham, N.) Ranger, J. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Janner, B. Rankin, J. Younger, Hon. Kenneth
Jay, D. P. T. Rees-Williams, D. R. Zilliacus, K.
Jeger, G. (Winchester) Reeves, J.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Reid, T. (Swindon) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Jones, J. H. (Bolton) Rhodes, H. Mr. Snow and
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Ridealgh, Mrs. M. Mr. George Wallace.
Keenan, W. Robens, A.

Question put, and agreed to.