Commons Sitting of 22 May 1947

Preamble
The House met at Half-past Two o'Clock
The Clerk, at the Table, informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. SPEAKER from this day's Sitting.
Whereupon Major MILNER, The CHAIRMAN of WAYS AND MEANS, proceeded to the Table and, after Prayers, took the Chair, as DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Standing Order.

TURKISH PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION
Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have to inform the House that Mr. Speaker has received the following telegram from the Turkish Parliamentary Delegation:
"Speaker of the House of Commons, S.W.I.
As we are leaving Britain I want to express our gratitude for the warmth of the welcome accorded to us. We believe that this visit has proved very fruitful in the strengthening of friendly relations between the two countries. We are happy to express our thanks and greetings to the British Parliament.
YELCIN."

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  LUTON CORPORATION BILL
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL
  (King's Consent signified)
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION

    Curriculum (Additional Year)
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education what steps he has taken to inform local education authorities of the curriculum he has prescribed to be followed during the additional year at school.
    The Minister of Education (Mr. Tomlinson): I do not prescribe the school curriculum, I will, however, be issuing very shortly a pamphlet which will deal with the planning of the whole secondary course from eleven to fifteen or sixteen rather than with a particular part of it in isolation.
    Commander Maitland: I fully appreciate that the Minister of Education does not prescribe the school curriculum, but surely on an occasion such as this, when the school-leaving age is being raised, should not some advice have been given by the Minister of Education? Is it not a fact that education authorities all over the country are very anxious and worried because they have had no indication from the Ministry on this important matter?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am not aware that they are in that state. As a matter of fact, they have had advice and are receiving, as I said, a further pamphlet dealing with these matters.
    Mr. George Thomas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the teaching profession would resent any attempt by His Majesty's Government to prescribe for them the terms of the curriculum, and that they regard that special privilege as one of the most cherished of the profession?

    Lindsey
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education how many school canteens have been installed in Lindsey; and how many schools are yet without canteens.
    Mr. Tomlinson: There are 182 school canteens in Lindsey, serving 213 school departments, out of a total of 321.
    Commander Maitland: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether those figures refer also to school dining rooms?
    Mr. Tomlinson: No Sir not without notice.
    Commander Maitlandasked the Minister of Education how much extra school accommodation is required in Lindsey owing to the raising of the school-leaving age; how much of this accommodation has already been found; and whether he is satisfied that accommodation will be found for all those requiring it.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Twenty-nine classrooms and 22 practical rooms are needed under the scheme of hutments to be erected by the Ministry of Works and a new light construction school to accommodate about 500 pupils is required at Scunthorpe. None of this accommodation has yet been completed, but the Ministry of Works hope that it will all be ready in time, except perhaps for some fittings and equipment for part of the first instalment.
    Commander Maitland: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that as much progress is being made as is possible?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir, I think the Ministry of Works have done and are doing their best.

    Children's Bicycles (Safety)
    Mr. Jannerasked the Minister of Education whether he is aware that at three schools in Cambridgeshire on examination of children's bicycles to see if they were roadworthy, 154 out of 181 were found to be in need of attention; and whether he is making any arrangements for similar examinations to take place in other schools in the country so as to avoid the possibility of numerous accidents arising from the use of faulty bicycles.
    Mr. Tomlinson: The periodical examination of children's bicycles at school has been encouraged for many years and the attention of local education authorities has been drawn to the matter on several occasions. I do not consider that any further reminder is required at the present time.
    Mr. Janner: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that in view of the very large proportion of bicycles at these schools which were faulty—and which must needs mean that road accidents are bound to increase, particularly on children arriving at schools—some direction should be given to the education authority? Does not the Minister realise that those figures themselves indicate that the inspections are not sufficiently frequent?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, but the figures indicate that an inspection did take place, and the local authority's attention has been called to the necessity of inspections time and again. Maybe this Question and answer will further emphasise the necessity for them.
    Mr. Lipson: Does not the Minister think it would be advisable to ask this authority how it was that so large a proportion of the children's bicycles were in that condition, and whether it was due to the fact that inspection had not taken place in this area?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I should want a little more definition of "out of order" with respect to a bicycle before I was prepared to accept that 154 out of 181 were unrideable.
    Mr. Cook: Will my right hon. Friend tell us if the inspection was carried out by a competent authority?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have not the slightest idea.
    Mr. Bossom: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the bicycle repair people have facilities to make the necessary repairs to prevent accidents?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have not made inquiries.

    Village Schools, Ripon
    Mr. Yorkasked the Minister of Education whether he has considered the proposal of the West Riding County Council to concentrate six village schools in the district -North-West of Ripon into two central schools, one result of which will be that young children from three of these schools are to be transported away from their home environment to Ripon; and whether he will oppose this wholesale elimination of village schools as contrary to the spirit of the Education Act, 1944.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Proposals to discontinue certain schools in the Ripon district are included in an instalment of the local education authority's development plan recently received in the Ministry, and will receive my careful consideration.
    Mr. York: Does the Minister of Education realise the perturbation in the minds of the parents in these villages at the suggestion? Can he say whether this moving of young children of five to 11 from villages to central schools is the policy of his Department?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Not at this stage.

    Universities (Entry)
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether he has con-

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    sidered the copy sent to him of the suggestion recently put forward by the high master of Manchester Grammar School for the equivalent of a Barlow Report on Secondary Education in order to secure an adequate entry of students to the universities; and what action he proposes to take.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have taken note of the high master's suggestion and, though I do not think that an inquiry would be appropriate at present, I will certainly bear it in mind.
    Mr. Lindsay: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that the whole Barlow Report rested on the assumption that there were thousands of potential scientists being lost, and no examination has taken place in the schools?

    Free Meals and Milk
    Colonel Wheatleyasked the Minister of Education the number of free meals and quantity of free milk taken by schoolchildren in an average week.
    Mr. Tomlinson: According to the return made for a normal school day in October, 1946, the number of pupils receiving free school meals in maintained schools on grounds of financial hardship was 338,450. The number of pupils in maintained schools receiving one-third of a pint of milk, which was free of charge for all pupils, was, on the same clay, 4,369,000.
    Colonel Wheatley: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the system of providing and distributing milk is the best that can be devised to save waste?
    Mr. Tomlinson: It is the best we have found up to now, but I would hesitate to say that it is the best that can be devised.
    Vice-Admiral Taylor: If the milk is not drunk in the schools, what happens to it?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I would not like to say. I have not any idea what happens to it, except that it is not taken home.

    Emergency Training
    Mr. Granville Sharpasked the Minister of Education what is the approximate proportion of those accepted over 12 months ago for training under the Emergency Training of Teachers Scheme whose
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    training has not yet commenced; whether he is aware that Mr. G. Smith, College Road, Gildersome, near Leeds, was accepted for training in January, 1946, prior to his demobilisation in May, 1946, and has now been informed that a further substantial period of waiting is inevitable; and whether he will now give the approximate date when this training will commence.
    Mr. Tomlinson: A candidate's name is placed on the waiting list for emergency training colleges by reference to the date of his Class A release, and not the date of his acceptance, if he applied while he was still serving in the Forces. For others it depends on the date of application. Of those candidates whose names have been entered on the lists in this way up to the end of April, 1946, slightly over one-sixth had not begun their training by the beginning of May, 1947. My Department replied to Mr. Smith a fortnight ago, giving him the best possible information as to the date when he may expect to begin his training.
    Mr. Sharp: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Department replied to my constituent to say that a substantial period of waiting was still required? Can he say when the end of this waiting will be, and why my constituent is being singled out and placed in this one-sixth minority whose training has not commenced?
    Mr. Tomlinson: There are any number of reasons why he may be among that one-sixth minority, but the principal reason is that the number of applicants far exceeds the number of places available, and it will take time to admit them all. The success of the scheme has made it all the more necessary for the waiting period to be longer. But the date of acceptance of the individual on his Class A release has been kept stable from the beginning in order to prevent people going ahead of the queue.
    Mr. Sharp: Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this young man's training will commence not later than September this year?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I cannot possibly give that assurance because I may be doing an injustice to someone else in another category if I do so.

    Independent Schools (Primary Scholars)
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether he has circularised local education authorities giving them a figure of the number of vacancies open at independent schools for children at primary schools; what has been the response; on what basis the selection is made; and what is the average total cost to the taxpayers and ratepayers.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Particulars of the places put by independent secondary schools at the disposal of the Committee on Boarding Education were circulated to all local education authorities. Sixty-five have so far been allocated. In addition, some local education authorities have made similar arrangements direct with the schools. The selection of the pupils is a matter for the individual local education authorities, to whom guidance has been given in Administrative Memorandum No. 225. The information asked for in the last part of the Question is not available.
    Mr. Lindsay: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the grammar schools are not further weakened at the expense of the independent schools, because they remain the only avenue by which a poor boy can get to a university?
    Mr. Lipson: Will the right hon. Gentleman say if independent schools can make application direct to local education authorities indicating how many places they can offer to children from primary schools?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir, there is nothing to prevent that.

    Grammar Schools (Staffing)
    Mr. K. Lindsayasked the Minister of Education whether his attention has been called to the number of grammar school masters who have recently left the profession; and what action he proposes to take to prevent this loss in the future.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I have seen reports in the Press, but I have no direct evidence of abnormal wastage, and, while I am concerned to secure the suitable staffing of all types of schools, I am not satisfied that special action in respect of grammar schools is called for.
    Mr. Lindsay: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the figures, which show that
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    1,300 such teachers have left in the last few years? I admit that some have gone to inspectorates and so forth, but will he use all his influence to get a revision of the graduate scale, which has the support of the whole of the teachers of this country?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am not satisfied that the revision of the graduate scale is necessary, nor that the figures are accurate. I should like to check them. They have appeared in the Press, but I have had no opportunity of checking them. I do not think it is a question of the graduate scale determining the influx of teachers or otherwise.

    Educational Standard
    Mr. Edward Evansasked the Minister of Education whether he has considered the resolution, of which a copy has been sent to him, passed by the Southwold Town Council at its last meeting, deploring the poor standard of educational attainment of children attending the local schools; and what reports his inspectors have made on the schools in this area.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am looking into the matter, and will communicate with my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Evans: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a general resolution of this character has caused a great deal of anxiety to parents and teachers, and also that the accusations about bad spelling have been levelled at school children for centuries past, and always will be?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am conscious of that, but I think I ought to inquire into the special circumstances here before coming to a decision.
    Mr. G. Thomas: Will my right hon. Friend, when considering this and similar cases, also investigate the conditions under which education is carried on in the classes?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Yes, Sir.

    Speech Therapists
    Mr. G. Thomasasked the Minister of Education the number of local education authorities now employing speech therapists; the number who have no speech therapists in their employ; and whether he will circularise the latter recommending them to appoint such officers.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Ninety local education authorities are now employing speech therapists and 56 authorities have no speech therapists on their staff. Local education authorities generally are fully alive to the importance of employing such officers, but unfortunately, the supply of speech therapists falls short of the demand.

  PENSIONS APPEALS (HIGH COURT JUDGMENT)
  Mr. Dribergasked the Attorney-General if his attention has been called to the judgment delivered by Mr. Justice Denning on 5th May, to the effect that a decision by a pensions appeal tribunal to reject an appeal must be unanimous; how many such rejections have been unanimous and how many by a majority only; and if he will make arrangements for the rehearing of all rejected appeals which were not rejected unanimously or take action forthwith, without further hearing, to give the benefit of the doubt to all appellants in such cases.
  The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): I am aware of the decision referred to. The decisions of pensions appeal tribunals as announced in court and communicated to the parties do not normally indicate whether the members were unanimous, nor does this fact usually appear in cases stated on appeal to the judge. It can in general only be ascertained by drawing an inference from the private notes of the individual members of the tribunals where such notes exist. I am unable therefore to state the number of cases corresponding to that tried by Mr. justice Denning and it would be impossible to ascertain it without examining the notes of the members of the tribunals in nearly 40,000 cases. Although the procedure adopted by the tribunals has not been in every case in conformity with the principle laid down in the judgment referred to, there is no evidence that any injustice has been done, and my noble Friend is not prepared to adopt either of the courses suggested by the hon. Member.
  Mr. Driberg: If what my right hon. and learned Friend says is the case—and I see his difficulty—is there not manifestly a most unfair disparity between the appellants who were fortunate on 5th May and the great majority of the appellants whose appeals have been rejected?
  The Attorney-General: No, Sir. I cannot accept that view. It occasionally happens that a higher tribunal reverses a view of the law which has hitherto been acted upon by the courts for a long period, but that does not result in the earlier cases, which were decided on what was then conceived to be the law, being reopened. It may happen in the course of years to come, that a judge who hears pension appeals will arrive at the view that some practice hitherto followed and accepted was not correct. If that were to enable the parties who did not contest the practice as applied to their own cases at the time to reopen those cases we should never reach finality in any of these matters.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there ought to be a very clear distinction drawn between what is the law as between litigants and what is the law affecting the claim by a disabled ex-Service man against the State for his pension, and since this decision now makes it perfectly clear that a large number of people who ought to have had a pension were deprived of it how can the State with any conscience deprive them of it?
  The Attorney-General: I am quite unable to accept the assumption that the conclusion is to be drawn at all from the decision of the learned judge that there is any justification for saying that anyone who ought to have received a pension is being deprived of one. Parliament has decided that these claims are to be decided by a form of judicial procedure which has been laid down, involving a hearing before tribunals, with a possibility of appeal to a judge. The whole basis of judicial procedure in this country is that a particular decision which is not challenged within the time limit for an appeal, should stand as between the parties to it, whatever view may be taken subsequently, in another case, as to the law which was applied in the previous decision.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: In the particular and unusual circumstances arising out of Mr. Justice Denning's judgment, would it not be right, where the respective numbers contributing to any division of opinion among the members of a tribunal are not known, and there is therefore a reasonable doubt as to whether, in the light of the doctrine laid down by Mr. Justice Denning, any particular application should or

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  should not succeed, that the appellant should be given the benefit of that doubt?
  The Attorney-General: Where a tribunal consisting of several members announces its decision without a dissentient voice, that decision has to be taken as the decision of the tribunal as a whole, a decision in which all the members acquiesce. We could only ascertain whether that was, in fact, the case by examining the private notes of the members of tribunals in something like 40,000 cases. That would be quite an impracticable course to pursue, even if it were a course which was desirable in the interests of justice. My noble Friend and I do not think that it is a course which is desirable in the interests of justice.
  Mr. Hector Hughes: Is it not obvious that this may mean injustice in something like 40,000 cases?
  Mr. Driberg: In order to ventilate this important matter further, I beg to give notice that I shall raise it on the Adjournment.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE

    Carbon Black Production
    Mr. John Lewisasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) on how many occasions the Inter-Departmental Committee on the Production of Carbon Black has met since it was set up; and who has been appointed as chairman of that committee since the resignation of Sir Charles Bruce Gardner;
    (2) when the Interim Report on the production of carbon black referred to in a letter by the Parliamentary Secretary to the hon. Member for Bolton, on 23rd January, 1947, will be available;
    (3) if he will make a full statement on the discussions which have taken place between the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and his Department regarding the erection of plant in Persia for the manufacture of carbon black suitable for tyre production.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps): The Inter-Departmental Committee on Carbon Black has held 17 formal meetings. Sir Charles Bruce-Gardner has kindly consented to continue as ohairman. The committee has presented an interim report which
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    shows that it has assembled much valuable information, that a great deal of exploratory work has been done and that plans for the production of carbon black in this country are being explored. I have received confidential information from the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company which I am not at liberty to disclose.
    Mr. Lewis: In view of the fact that this committee was set up as long ago as April, 1946, for the purpose of developing other sources of supply of carbon black, both at home and in the sterling area, will my right hon. and learned Friend justify its existence? Will he also say how it is that he pays lip service to the necessity for conserving our dollar resources, when we spent last year 5,250,000 of our precious dollars on this commodity in the U.S.A., while at the same time millions of cubic feet of natural gas are being blown into the air every day in the Middle East which could be burned to produce the carbon black we require?
    Sir S. Cripps: It is not necessary for me to justify the proceedings of this committee, which has done a very useful service in inquiring into what is a very complicated matter.
    Mr. Lewis: Does my right hon. and learned Friend think that that is good enough? Would he say why we are spending our reserve of valuable dollars on the purchase of carbon black, when it is not necessary to do so?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Walker-Smith.
    Mr. Lewis: On a point of Order. I propose to raise this matter further on the Adjournment.

    Perambulators
    Mr. Derek Walker-Smithasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the shortage of various raw materials used in the manufacture of perambulators will involve a substantial decrease in the production of perambulators; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent this unsatisfactory development.
    Sir S. Cripps: The main bottleneck at present in the output of perambulators is the shortage of steel, and I am hopeful that we may be able to obtain more steel for this purpose.
    Mr. Walker-Smith: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that there are also other materials which have been cut, notably plywood and cotton? Can he hold out similar hopes in respect of these, and can he hold out hopes of the speedier meeting of the allocations than in fact is made even when they are reduced?
    Sir S. Cripps: For the moment I understand that steel is the main bottleneck. When that is solved we will try to solve the others
    Air-Commodore Harvey: Will the President of the Board of Trade say what the deficiency of perambulators is over the whole of the rest of this year? Is the figure of 150,000, which has been given in the Press, correct?
    Sir S. Cripps: It is quite impossible for anyone to estimate the deficiency of perambulators.

    Electricity Generator Exports
    Mr. Yorkasked the President of the Board of Trade the total value of electricity-generating equipment exported during each month January, February, March and April, 1947; and when the export of this equipment is likely to cease until home requirements are met.
    Sir S. Cripps: The value of electrical generators of more than 200 K.W. capacity exported during January, February, March and April, 1947, totalled respectively £402,212, £437,241, £166,524 and £692,239. It would not be practicable to divert current export orders to home use but arrangements have been made to give preference to orders for home power plants.
    Sir Waldron Smithers: Why is it necessary to export what are really raw materials without which we cannot produce goods for export at competitive prices?
    Sir S. Cripps: These particular articles are not suitable for the home market. They have been made for export orders.
    Mr. York: Is the export of these amounts of equipment holding up the erection of any plant in this country?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, Sir, they are in fact expediting it, because they are clearing factories of export orders to make them available for others.

    Mining Machinery Factories
    Mr. D. J. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade in which development areas have factories been approved for the production of milling machinery; and what progress has been made in their erection.
    Sir S. Cripps: Factory building projects for the production of mining machinery have been approved in the North-Eastern, West Cumberland, South Lancashire and Scottish Development Areas. The project in the North-Eastern area comprises three extensions to an existing factory, two of which have been completed. The projects in the West Cumberland and Scottish areas are at present under construction. Work has not yet started on the project in the South Lancashire area.
    Mr. D. J. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade what progress has been made with the projects for the manufacture of opencast mining equipment in South Wales; where these projects are to be located; and how many men they are expected to employ when they are in production.
    Sir S. Cripps: Projects for the manufacture or repair of opencast mining equipment are located at Cardiff and Aberdare. They consist of two extensions to an existing factory and a new factory at Cardiff and the allocation of a section of a Government-owned factory at Aberdare. Preliminary work on a small scale has started in the section of the Government factory. Construction of the new factory and the two extensions has not yet commenced. When in full production these schemes may be expected to give additional employment to about 450 men.
    Mr. D. J. Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade what Government factory in South Wales has been allocated for the production of mining machinery; is the size of this factory; and when it is expected to be in production.
    Sir S. Cripps: A factory at Rhymney has been made available for the production of mining machinery. The factory has an area of 40,000 square feet. The factory is in production and at the end of March, 1947, was employing 157 men. When in full production, it should employ about 300 men.
    Mr. Williams: Will my right hon. and learned Friend regard the projects referred to in this and my two previous Questions as matters of special urgency, partly to provide machinery for the collieries and partly to provide employment for people who are unemployed in the development areas?
    Sir S. Cripps: They will certainly be considered as matters of urgency so far as available supplies of building materials allow.

    Salvage Collection
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the President of the Board of Trade if he has now received the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on the Collection of Salvage; if he intends to publish the report; and when he expects to put its recommendations into force.
    Sir S. Cripps: Yes, Sir. I have received an interim report from the committee containing a number of recommendations which are being put into effect as rapidly as possible. It is not intended to publish the report.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: Will the President of the Board of Trade take urgent action to encourage salvage, particularly of paper and glass containers, and urge the local authorities to collect them and bring them in?
    Sir S. Cripps: We are taking urgent action to that end.

    Cellophane
    Mr. Beechmanasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will state the amount of Cellophane exported from this country during the years 1946 and 1947, respectively; and
    (2) whether he is aware that Cellophane is practically unobtainable in this country; that it is urgently needed as a wrapper for certain horticultural products; and what steps he proposes to take to improve the position.
    Sir S. Cripps: Cellulose film production has been substantially increased since the end of the war in order to develop our export trade, and the quantity exported in 1946 was 4,900 tons and, in the first quarter of 1947, 1,500 tons. Up to 40 per cent. of the total production is available for home requirements but, in view of the need to encourage this valuable
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    export, I should not be prepared to increase this. If the hon. Member will give me details of the materials to which he refers for which cellulose film is an essential wrapping, I will make inquiries to see if supplies can be made available out of the quantity at present provided for home requirement.
    Mr. Beechman: Is the Minister aware that the large and increasing quantities of Cellophane which are going abroad, as he said, go very largely to horticultural producers in other countries who send back their produce to this country in our own material, and that we cannot compete because we have not got the proper containers?
    Sir S. Cripps: If the hon. and learned Gentleman will let me have the information he has in mind, I will see what can be done.
    Mr. De la Bère: There are quite a number of cases.

    Children's Underwear
    Mr. Percy Wellsasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make an allocation of children's summer underwear available in the Faversham Division of Kent.
    Sir S. Cripps: Underwear is distributed through the normal trade channels and is not controlled by Board of Trade allocations. I have no reason to suppose that the Faversham Division of Kent is not receiving its proper share of children's summer underwear in relation to available supplies, but if my hon. Friend has evidence to the contrary, I will gladly examine it.
    Mr. Wells: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that these garments were absolutely unobtainable at the date when this Question was put down?
    Sir S. Cripps: I hope they are now obtainable.

    Clothing Coupons (Service Men)
    Mr. Niall Macphersonasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will cause civilian clothing coupons to be issued to men who have served for two years or more in His Majesty's Forces.
    Sir S. Cripps: I cannot see my way to extend the concession already announced,

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    under which civilian coupons are to be given to members of the Forces serving on a Regular engagement, to allow them to buy some civilian clothing during service in the Forces. Non-regular personnel who have now served for two years or more and who are released in due course under the present release scheme, will be entitled on release to receive, in addition to the civilian clothing outfit, 90 coupons as well as the current clothing book.
    Mr. Macpherson: Is the Minister aware that many young men when they are called up are not fully developed, and that after a year or two in the Forces the civilian clothes which they had earlier simply do not cover them? Could he not reconsider this?
    Sir S. Cripps: I am afraid we cannot reconsider it, because there is no more material available.
    Mr. Rees-Williamsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will make a statement on the grant of additional allowances of coupons to purchase civilian clothing to members of the Regular Forces who have served continuously from 3rd September, 1939, and who are still serving.
    Sir S. Cripps: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Mr. G. Jeger), on 13th March.
    Mr. Rees-Williams: I am aware of that reply, but may I ask the President of the Board of Trade to contact the Secretary of State for War to make that reply widely known to men in the Forces, because they do not know of this information?
    Sir S. Cripps: I will certainly do that.

    Book Production
    Mr. Wyattasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that large printing plants suitable for book production are standing idle in Germany; and if he will take steps to enable these to be utilised to ease the book production difficulties in this country.
    Sir S. Cripps: Owing to scarcity of fuel, paper, and other necessary supplies, printing and binding plant in the British
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    zone of Germany may well be idle at present. Import licences will be given to firms in this country willing and able to buy such machinery if it is suitable for use here. It is also open to firms to find out whether the plant could be used in Germany for printing, or for binding printed matter sent there for the purpose. They would, of course, have to assure themselves that the necessary supplies of paper, binding cloth, etc., were available.
    Mr. Wyattasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the obstacles which prevent the purchase from Canada of a substantial quantity of paper, suitable for book production, at under £40 a ton.
    Sir S. Cripps: I am not aware of any substantial quantity of paper which would be available at the price stated without detriment to our current supplies, but if my hon. Friend will let me have further details I will investigate the matter.

    Light Industries, Midlothian
    Lord John Hopeasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps the Government has taken to put into practice its plans for the location of light industries in the development area of the county of Midlothian.
    Sir S. Cripps: I would refer the noble Lord to the answer I gave to his Question on 13th February. The employment needs of the district to which he refers are being met by industrial developments approved for Bathgate, Broxburn and Linlithgow. In addition, the district supplies a substantial volume of labour to Edinburgh which is within fairly easy daily travelling distance.
    Lord John Hope: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that he has given me precisely the same answer as he gave before, and the answer he has given concerns, as it did before, West Lothian and has nothing whatever to do with Midlothian? Is he further aware that many thousands of men and women in Midlothian are very disappointed about the Government delays in the past on this matter, and are facing the future with a considerable amount of anxiety?
    Sir S. Cripps: The present position is that there are 95 men and 21 women unemployed. I understand, which is not bigh
    Lord John Hope: But the answer covers West Lothian and not Midlothian. The right hon. and learned Gentleman seems to know nothing about it.

  COAL INDUSTRY

    Northern Ireland
    Mr. Mulveyasked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will publish the communication which he sent to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in regard to the withdrawal of coal supplies in the event of the Northern Ireland Parliament not adopting double summer time.
    The Minister of Fuel and Power (Mr. Shinwell): No such communication has been sent to the Prime Minister or any other Minister of Northern Ireland. I recently saw the Northern Ireland Minister of Commerce and assured him that everything possible will be done to meet Northern Ireland's essential coal requirements.
    Mr. Mulvey: Is the right hon Gentleman aware that when the Double Summer Time Bill came before the Northern Ireland Parliament, hon. Members of that Parliament were opposed to the Bill on the ground that the area is largely agricultural, and that the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, to secure the passage of the Bill, left the House under the impression, in a statement, that coal supplies would not be available from this country if the Bill was not passed?
    Mr. Shinwell: I was able to assure the Minister of Commerce about the matter. I am aware that Sir Roland Nugent. the Minister of Commerce, did say in the Northern Ireland Parliament that there was no threat to deprive Northern Ireland of coal.

    Domestic Supplies
    44. Sir Ralph Glynasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, what instructions have been issued by his department to fuel controllers that cause them to intimate to the public in response to requests for permits that they are not permitted to issue stocking licences during the summer months unless the premises are difficult to reach in the winter; why the previous policy of utilising the summer months for stocking domestic cellars with the total quantity to which individuals are entitled
    2516
    has been rescinded and why no coal may be supplied until after 1st November.
    Mr. Shinwell: Local fuel overseers have been instructed that licences for additional supplies for stocking should be granted only for those premises difficult of access in winter. Any consumer may, however, acquire between May and October, subject to supplies being available, the quantities permitted for that period under the restrictions, and this allows, as last year, for well distributed stocking of all the house coal available after providing for essential consumption and the necessary reserves at merchants' depots.
    Sir R. Glyn: Can the right hon. Gentleman let the House know why 1st November was fixed as the date on and after which coal could be supplied?
    Mr. Shinwell: Coal can be supplied between May and October up to a permitted quantity. Thereafter, more can be supplied according to availability.
    Sir R. Glyn: But in this case my constituent was told he could not be supplied until after 1st November. What is the purpose of preventing people from stocking up before the winter comes?
    Mr. Shinwell: I understand the hon. Member wrote to my Department about a particular case. I think it had reference to boiler fuel and not to domestic coal in general. 1f that is the case, then clearly the person concerned would not obtain the full quantity between May and October, but would have to wait until 1st November to see what additional quantities could be supplied.

    Allowances (Ex-Employees)
    Sir Ian Fraserasked the Minister of Fuel and Power to what extent the National Coal Board is continuing the practice of many colliery companies of making coal and rent allowances to former employees who were severely disabled while on military service.
    Mr. Shinwell: I am not aware that there was any general practice among colliery companies of the kind suggested, or whether there are cases where the Board have discontinued the practice of their predecessors, but if the hon. Member has a particular case in mind and will send me details, I will invite the National Coal Board to look into it and communicate with him.
    Sir I. Fraser: Is it not true that a national organisation like the Coal Board has less soul, discretion and humanity than a private employer, and may I take advantage of the right hon. Gentleman's offer to send him particulars of a case where a disabled ex-Service man was continued in his house with his free coal allowance, but where the Coal Board has cut it off?
    Mr. Shinwell: On the contrary, judging by what the National Coal Board have done in recent months, they have displayed much more humanity than their predecessors. I think that the hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. I have made inquiries, and I cannot find that these practices were in operation when the pits were privately owned. However, if the hon. Gentleman has a specific case in mind of which I am not aware, I shall be glad to have particulars of it.
    Sir I. Fraser: I will send it to the right hon. Gentleman

    Output Comparison
    Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, if he is aware that some of the statistics on output and absenteeism issued by the public relations officers of his Department since the five-day week began have been based on comparisons with the output of previous weeks and others with the output in the same week of the previous year; and if he will see that the comparisons are on a uniform basis.
    Mr. Shinwell: No, Sir. I personally have given statements on output in the weeks ended 10th May and 17th May which included comparative figures, both for the preceding weeks and for the corresponding weeks of last year. I also gave certain details of absenteeism in the week ended 10th May with comparative figures for the preceding week, for last year and for certain earlier years. It is the general practice of my Department to give comparisons both with preceding periods and the corresponding periods in previous years.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is it not a fact that the public relations officers in the right hon. Gentleman's Department are not in every case comparing like with like, and is it not further the fact that it is very undesirable to have so much propaganda at public expense?
    Mr. Shinwell: I think that we have given a great deal of information and many statistics on this matter.

    Wages Agreement
    Me. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Fuel and Power what were the provisions as to duration and date of expiry of the agreement on wages between employers and employed in the coal industry in force at the date of the vesting of the coal industry in public ownership.
    Mr. Shinwell: The National Wages Agreement of 1944 provided that not less than six month's notice of termination should be given by either party, and that such notice should be given before the beginning of 1948.

    Coal Board (Salaries)
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenportasked the Minister of Fuel and Power, whether he will provide a table setting out the precise amount of the present salaries of members of the National Coal Board, together with a note indicating what is permitted in addition by way of expenses in kind and in cash; and whether he can give a comparison between these figures and the salaries of officers conducting nationalised coalminers in other countries.
    Mr. Shinwell: When the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill was under consideration, I informed the House on 12th March, 1946, that the salary of each member of the Board would be £5,000 per annum, and of the chairman £8,500. No special salary has been fixed for the vice-chairman, and he is receiving the salary of a member, i.e. £5,000 per annum. On 5th November, 1946, I informed the House that, with the approval of the Treasury, I had authorised the Board to provide a global sum of £10,000 for the expenses of the Board, and that the application of this sum should be settled by the chairman of the Board. I have no details of the allocation of the expenses allowance between the members of the Board, nor have I any information about the remuneration of officers conducting nationalised coalmines in other countries where the circumstances differ so widely that comparison would not serve any useful purpose.
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Will the information for which I have

    2519
    asked ever be given in detail, or will salaries and expenses be grouped together in a total sum when the accounts are presented? Will the public ever know how much these people are getting?
    Mr. Shinwell: When the accounts are presented we can discuss that
    Lieut.-Colonel Bromley-Davenport: Will the right hon. Gentleman please answer my question? Will those items be shown in detail?
    Mr. Shinwell: I will consider all these matters,
    Mr. Marlowe: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is true that the difference between the Transport Board and the Coal Board is that the Coal Board is carrying more passengers?

  VICTORIA CROSS ANNUITY
  General Sir George Jeffreysasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the annuities at present payable to holders of the Victoria Cross are now inadequate having regard to the increased cost of living; and whether he will consider the grant of such increases in those annuities as will save their recipients from actual want.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The normal annuity is £10 per annum given concurrently with the decoration, and 6d. a day addition to pension. These awards may be increased under the terms of the pensions increase scheme. There is also provision for the increase of the annuity, together with any other pension from public funds, to £75 a year in all cases of need due to age or infirmity. It is not considered that these payments are inadequate for the Purpose for which they are intended. The monetary award can scarcely be commensurate with the value of the services rendered, which are marked by the grant of the decoration itself.
  Sir G. Jeffreys: Will the Prime Minister explain, with reference to his statement that it is not considered that the payments are inadequate for the purpose for which they are intended, what that purpose is? Is it not to save old and infirm holders of the V.C. from want, and, if
  2520
  that is so, is £75 a year considered to be sufficient having regard to the present value of money?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think it was originally planned on that basis at all. I refer my hon. and gallant Friend to what was said by the present Leader of the Opposition when he pronounced on this subject in 1943. He said:
  "If we are to compute these matters by money values, I should be strongly in favour of much larger sums; but I think that would alter the character of these awards."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21St July, 1943: Vol. 391, c. 890.]
  I think that these awards were never intended as pensions for subsistence.

  COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES
  Sir W. Smithersasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of references on pages 32, 640 and 641 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Spy Trials in Canada, issued on 27th June, 1946, to Communist activities in London and elsewhere in Britain, he will set up immediately a similar Royal Commission
  The Prime Minister: Ido not think that the appointment of a Royal Commission is necessary for the purposes which I presume the hon. Member has in mind.
  Sir W. Smithers: Does the Prime Minister realise that the root cause of the troubles in Britain today is the infiltration of the Communist Party, as evidenced by today's lightning strike at Smithfield Market?
  Mr. Gallacher: I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he is aware that if the Communists did not exist the hon. Member for Orpington (Sir W. Smithers) would be struck by vocal paralysis?
  The Prime Minister: I think not, so long as we have bulk purchases.
  Sir W. Smithers: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I ask whether it is consistent with the position of the Prime Minister for a flippant reply to be made to an hon. Member?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive my saying so, he has rather invited such a reply.

  INDIAN ARMY (FUTURE)
  Brigadier Mackesonasked the Prime Minister if he will give an assurance that no decisions affecting the future control, composition and organisation of the Indian Army will be taken before a Debate has taken place in this House.
  The Prime Minister: As the House is aware, the Viceroy is now in London for discussions with His Majesty's Government on policy with regard to the transfer of power in India. The question of the future control, composition and organisation of the Indian Army is, of course, closely linked to the wider problem of the transfer of power, and I am not in a position to make any statement at present. The House will have an opportunity of debating the matter in due course, but I regret that I am unable to give such an assurance as is asked for by the hon. and gallant Member.

  RATIONING AND POINTS SYSTEM
  Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint an interdepartmental committee to review the rationing schemes now in force and to recommend what changes can be made to apply the points system more generally throughout the rationing structure and to introduce flexibility as between one rationed commodity and another.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I think that such a system would be undesirable and impracticable.
  Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Does the Prime Minister realise that the black market of this country is growing, that it tends to· bring a whole range of law into contempt, and that the only way to overcome the black market, apart from the totalitarian way, is to modify the rationing structure to render legal what is now illegal?
  Mr. S. Silverman: To legalise the black market?
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Member's proposal, as I understand it, is that the points system should apply to everything—petrol, clothing and every form of food—but that is quite an impossible proposition.

  EMPLOYMENT

    Music Directors (Appointment of Aliens)
    Mr. E. Evansasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the Bournemouth Town Council has agreed to the appointment of Mr. Rudolph Schwarz, an Austrian, to be Director of Music to the corporation; that several British musicians of the highest qualifications were among the applicants for the post; and whether, in view of the desirability of encouraging native talent, particularly as few opportunities occur for permanent appointments as conductors in this country, he will ask the Bournemouth authorities to reconsider the appointment.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs): I am aware of the proposed appointment. The position is that an application for permission for Mr. Rudolf Schwarz to stay in this country in order to take up the appointment has just been received and is now under consideration. No decision has yet been reached.
    Mr. Evans: Is the Minister aware of the very grave anxiety among musicians of all classes at this appointment of a foreign musician when there were 72 British applicants for this post, some with the highest musical qualifications and recommended by some of the greatest composers in this country? Is he also aware that in the case of the Scottish Orchestra, Covent Garden, and the B.B.C. Theatre Orchestra, permanent appointments have recently been given to foreigners, to the detriment of British conductors? How on earth are we to train conductors to fill responsible positions when these permanent positions are given to foreigners?
    Mr. K. Lindsay: Is it not time we took a broader view? Will the right hon. Gentleman congratulate the Bournemouth Town Council on appointing this man, especially if he happens to be the best man? Is he aware that I know of two British conductors who have recently been appointed to very high positions in this country?
    Mr. Isaacs: All I can tell the House is that these factors will be kept in mind.
    Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Would it not be best for the Minister to leave this alone and to leave the whole thing to the good sense and taste of the British musical world?
    Mr. S. Silverman: Is the Minister aware that, according to a statement made by the chairman of the committee which made this appointment, one reason why they appointed a foreigner was that no British applicant applied?
    Mr. W. J. Brown: Can we have an assurance that the Minister of Labour and his colleagues do not favour the application of a closed shop against Mendelssohn, Bach and Beethoven?

    Transport Workers' Hostels
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooperasked the Minister of Labour what is the total number of his Department's hostels; how many of these have recently been transferred from the Ministry of Supply and how many further hostels still under the Ministry of Supply are intended to be transferred; how many of them show an annual surplus over their operating costs; and what is the cost to the public over a period of 12 months, up to the last convenient date, representing the total deficit on operation of all these hostels for which he is responsible.
    Mr. Isaacs: Hostels to house transferred industrial workers are administered on my behalf by the National Service Hostels Corporation, local authorities and voluntary agencies. At the end of March, 1947, the total number of such hostels was 106, of which 63 were under the control of the corporation. Fifteen were recently transferred from the Ministry of Supply and one other is to be transferred in a few months. None of these shows an annual surplus over operating costs. Grants totalling £1,371,000 were made to the corporation during the year ended 31st March, 1947, to meet the deficits on the costs, including capital charges and maintenance services, of the hostels under their control. In addition, grants totalling about £15,000 were made during 1945–47 to the various local authorities and voluntary agencies to meet the deficits on the running costs of small hostels managed by them on my behalf. Expenditure on premises and equipment of these latter hostels is normally borne by the Ministry of Works: separate figures of such costs are not available.
    Mr. Cooper: Can the Minister say of the hostels recently transferred which have doubled and trebled their administrative staffs, what facilities are granted to the administrative staff to know
    2524
    whether they are operating successfully or not, and what incentives are given to the management to increase the efficiency of the hostels under their control?
    Mr. Isaacs: I think that is very wide of the original Question. If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars of these hostels which have doubled and trebled their administrative staffs, I will look into it.
    Sir William Darling: In view of the fact that there is a loss of something like £1 million, does the Minister think that this is a very satisfactory augury for State management in other Departments?
    Mr. Isaacs: There may be a monetary loss—
    Sir W. Darling: There is.
    Mr. Isaacs: —but these people would be in a far worse situation where there were no houses for them if these hostels on which they relied did not exist. This is to meet the present situation.
    Mr. Ronald Chamberlain: Would the Minister point out that the National Hostels Corporation is expected to run at a loss as a deliberate policy and that it is not a case of unskilled administration as has been suggested?
    Mr. Isaacs: That is correct. It gives me the opportunity which I welcome of saying how much I appreciate the voluntary services of the members of this corporation who are placing their great skill and knowledge at our disposal.
    Captain Crookshank: Losing money.

    Ministry Staff (Redundancy)
    Mr. Digbyasked the Minister of Labour why his Department is dismissing employees owing to redundancy and failure to pass a written examination after 20 years' satisfactory service.
    Mr. Isaacs: Staff are naturally not retained in my Department in excess of the requirements of the work, and the appointments of temporary officers who become redundant are terminated in accordance with the provisions of an agreement on order of discharge made by the Departmental Whitley Council. The agreement provides in general for the retention of officers with long service in preference to those with shorter service.
    Mr. Digby: Is it not a fact that one of these officers who served for more than 20 years was dismissed because more civil servants were being recruited to the so-called permanent grades, and will the Minister give an assurance that officers with this length of service will not continue to be displaced because of new recruitments?
    Mr. Isaacs: I am afraid that the hon. Member has been misinformed as to the facts—
    Mr. Digby: This is in a letter I have received—
    Mr. Isaacs: The hon. Gentleman has had a letter about this case. This man left our employment and then came back, and when a man comes back his service dates from the time when he returned and not from the time when he was previously with us.

    Tubercular Persons
    Mr. N. Macphersonasked the Minister of Labour to what extent persons suffering from tuberculosis are being debarred from benefiting from the provisions of the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act, 1944, on account of the nature of their disability and the necessity of undergoing a medical examination as a condition of participating in superannuation schemes of the industries concerned.
    Mr. Isaacs: Sufferers from tuberculosis are not debarred from benefiting from the provisions of the Disabled Persons (Employment) Act.
    Mr. Macpherson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a not unnatural reluctance on the part of employers to admit people suffering from T.B. to jobs that are reserved for disabled persons, and can he look into this to see that T.B. sufferers are given the same treatment as is accorded to other disabled persons?
    Mr. Isaacs: They are, in fact, given that treatment. Obviously there are some kinds of occupation in enclosed premises or where the workers work in close proximity to each other where it is not wise to have this class of person, but there are many other occupations where they can be, and are, so employed. I have no real complaint against employers for making an unreasonable distinction.

    Trade Dispute, Acton
    Mr. Sparksasked the Minister of Labour if he is aware of the action of Messrs. Adrema, Limited, East Acton, in dismissing five employees for distributing leaflets adjacent to the exhibition of the firm's goods at the British Industries Fair, drawing attention to the existence of a trade dispute at the firm's factory; and whether he has yet been asked to intervene in the strike which has consequently arisen.
    Mr. Isaacs: I am aware of this incident. There is adequate negotiating machinery in the engineering industry to deal with such matters.
    Mr. Sparks: Is the Minister aware that this dispute originated with the interference of the Engineering and Allied Employers' Federation, which appears to have insisted that three men should not be reinstated at the end of the fuel and power crisis, and in view of the strike-fomenting activities of this association, is there anything that can be done to avoid incidents of this character arising as a consequence?
    Mr. Isaacs: My hon. Friend refers to interference by some outside organisation. I would like to impress on the House very sincerely that interference by Members of Parliament against the action of trade unions encourages unofficial strikes and does not help to stop them.
    Mr. House: Is the Minister bearing in mind that the underlying cause of this strike is apparently the design of the firm to victimise certain employees—using the fuel crisis as a basis—by refusing to reemploy them?
    Mr. Isaacs: Should that be so, then those men have a proper line of approach, and should take the matter before their trade union. Ignoring and side-stepping their unions and getting the matter raised on the Floor of the House does not help, but injures their case.

  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Postwar Credits (Payment)
    Mr. Peter Freemanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the date when postwar Income Tax credits will be paid:

    2527
    the number of men and women, respectively, concerned; and the method by which application for payment should be made.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): As my right hon. Friend indicated in his Budget Statement, the final repayments of postwar credits to old people will begin in the autumn, and should be completed by Christmas. I cannot yet give a definite date, but, as soon as arrangements are completed, an announcement will be made as to the procedure to be followed. The numbers concerned are 1,250,000 men and 500,000 women.
    Mr. Freeman: In view of the anxiety of these old people to know in advance when they will receive payment, could the right hon. Gentleman give an indication when he will be able to make a statement about the further details?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I cannot give any closer estimate than that given by my right hon. Friend in his Budget Statement. We hope that the autumn will be the date, and as soon as we can issue the actual details we will.

    Capital Issues (Control Orders)
    Major Bruceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will make a statement about the bringing into operation of Section 1 of the Borrowing (Control and Guarantees) Act.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Yes, Sir. Appropriate orders were made yesterday to come into force on 16th June. These are being laid before the House today. I will, with permission, circulate a fuller statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Major Bruce: Could my right hon. Friend say whether Subsection (1, d) of Section r, which provides for the control of offers for sale, is comprised in the Orders referred to, as these offers for sale still require control?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: My right hon. Friend had hoped to get rid of this particular control under the Order which is being promulgated now, but, as hon. Members will see, he is keeping a limited control for a while longer under the regulations which are now to be published.
    Following is the Statement:
    An Order was made yesterday under Section 1 of the Borrowing (Control and
    2528
    Guarantees) Act, to come into force on 16th June. Simultaneously, two other Orders have been made. The first is an Order-in-Council revoking the greater part of Regulation 6 of the Defence (Finance) Regulations. The second is an Exemptions Order made under the remaining portion of Regulation 6. The Order under the Borrowing Act follows the general lines of the draft published last year, but has been amended to implement certain assurances given when the Bill was before the House last summer.
    The principal effect of the other two Orders is to retain in force, for the time being, a limited control of public offers for sale of domestic securities. I originally intended to abolish this part of the control altogether, but I have for some months been keeping a close watch on this form of appeal to the public. As a result, I am not satisfied that it will be in the public interest to remove control altogether at this stage. I am, however, limiting the control to public offers of shares or stock, where the company concerned has made an issue of shares or stock within the previous two years under any of the current exemptions. Revised instructions are being issued to the Capital Issues Committee, who will be given discretion in the case of those public offers remaining under. control to recommend consent, unless the proposals seem undesirable in the general public interest.
    Under the new arrangements, Northern Ireland will in future run its own control of capital issues. Regulation 6 remains in force as regards the Isle of Man, as an interim measure pending the passage of local legislation. I give clear warning that I shall not hesitate to use my powers under the Borrowing Act to amend the new Order at short notice, if experience suggests that it has been drawn too widely.

    Duke of Windsor (Currency Allowances)
    Mr. Piratinasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what allotment of dollars, over and above the basic allocation of £75, has been made to the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, respectively, in 1945, 1946 and to the nearest convenient date in 1947.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: I am not prepared to disclose such information regarding particular individuals, whoever they may be
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Langford-Holt.
    Mr. Piratin: I was on my feet, Sir.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Question No. 59.
    Mr. Piratin: On a point of Order. Is it not in Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for a Member of this House who is concerned with the saving of dollars to ask a question of this kind? Is it not important that this House should be acquainted with the fact whether dollars are being spent by certain individuals in a private capacity, and has not the Minister the duty to give this information?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Minister has answered the hon. Gentleman's Question, and he must be satisfied

    Sterling Balances
    Mr. J. Langford-Holtasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in regard to the large outstanding sterling debt, whether he will give a list of the countries involved, together with the amount of their sterling balances.
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Publication at this time would not be suitable, in view of the negotiations which are taking place over the next three weeks.
    Mr. Langford-Holt: Will the right hon. Gentleman publish these figures as soon as the negotiations are concluded?
    Mr. Glenvil Hall: Most of them are already published. I think that the list of what is owed is fairly well known. Negotiations are being conducted with quite a number of these countries, and if the hon. Gentleman will wait, I think there will be something to be said later on

  CIVIL SERVICE (EX-SERVICE MEN)
  Mr. Collinsasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will inquire into the possibility of making pensionable employment available in the Civil Service to men with the necessary qualifications who have served in both the 1914–18 war and the last war; and if he will make a statement on this matter.
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Ex-Service men of the 1914–18 war have always been given preference for retention in unestablished posts and opportunities for their subsequent establishment have, from time to time, been made available. Increased opportunities for the establishment of unestablished civil servants will, I hope, soon be given. Long and competent service in an unestablished capacity has been, and will continue to be, a qualification for such establishment.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: In making arrangements for permanent and pensionable appointments, to which the Question refers, will the right hon. Gentleman have regard to the findings of the Tomlin Commission in 1931 which recommended that temporary employment should be limited to a very short period, and that more permanent work should be staffed by permanent and pensionable staff?
  Mr. Collins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many men who have given upwards of 12 years' exceptional service to their country—men of considerable ability—who have been rendered almost desperate by their complete inability to find employment, and is it riot within the compass of his Department to endeavour to do something to find employment for people of this kind?
  Mr. Glenvil Hall: Yes, Sir, but the pressure from all quarters of this House is to reduce the Civil Service and not to increase it. Unfortunately, we cannot find jobs for people just because they need them, much as we would like to do so.
  Mr. Collins: My supplementary question did not imply increasing staffs, but consideration of these men when appointments are made. Is my right hon. Friend aware that men over 41 years of age are not considered suitable to give tests for driving instruction and things of that kind? Those are the things of which we complain.

  SHOT CIVILIAN (DEPENDANTS' AWARDS)
  Mr. Eden(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has come to any decision about the payment of a grant to the widow of Mr. de Antiquis.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Ede): Yes, Sir. I have decided to make ex gratia awards to Mrs. de Antiquis of £100 a year, and to each of her six children of £18 a year up to age 16 Annuities will be purchased for this purpose.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Eden: May I ask the Leader of the House to tell us the Business for next week? [Laughter.] I mean, of course, when we resume after the Recess. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for having appeared to intrude into his domestic matters.
The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Herbert Morrison): There will be plenty of business next week.
When the House resumes on Tuesday, 3rd June, it is proposed to take the Report stage and Third Reading of the Industrial Organisation Bill.
Wednesday and Thursday, 4th and 5th June, the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill.
Friday, 6th June, Second Reading of the Companies Bill [Lords], and the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.
During the week we hope there will be an opportunity to obtain the Committee stage of the additional Ways and Means Resolution relating to Income Tax (Armed Forces of the Crown), and the Second Reading of the Education (Exemptions) (Scotland) Bill [Lords].
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to say when a statement on India will be made?
Mr. Morrison: I am advised by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that it is
2532
not possible to give an indication at the moment as to when any statement on India will be made.
Mr. Janner: In view of the extremely important decision that has been given recently in relation to the Rent Acts and the further complications which have ensued in consequence of it, are the Government likely to take any steps to introduce a fresh Rent Bill?
Mr. Morrison: I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is in communication with the chairman of the appropriate rent tribunal. We have no intention at the moment of introducing rent legislation.
Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: Can my right hon. Friend say whether time will be found to debate a Motion on the Order Paper in the names of 72 Members, on world federation?
[That in order to raise the standard of living of the peoples of the world and to maintain world peace, this House requests His Majesty's Government to affirm Britain's readiness to federate with any other nations willing to do so 'on the basis of a federal constitution to be agreed by a representative constituent assembly.]
Mr. Morrison: I should not think it is likely.
Major Legge-Bourke: Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication of when the Agriculture (Emergency Payments) Bill will be taken?
Mr. Morrison: That will be arranged, but I am not in a position to make a statement at the moment.
Major Legge-Bourke: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that it will be as soon as possible?
Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, certainly.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Motion made, and question put,
That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from
the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes. 246; Noes, 93.

Division No. 224.

AYES.

[3.36 p.m

Adams, Richard (Balham)

Farthing, W J.

Morrison, Rt Hon H. (Lewisham, E)

Adams, W. T (Hammersmith South)

Fernyhough,

Mulvey, A

Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

Fletcher, E. G M (Islington, E.)

Nally, W

Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

Forman, J. C

Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.)

Alpass, J. H

Freeman, Peter (Newport)

Nicholls, H R. (Stratford)

Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

Ganley, Mrs. C. S.

Noel-Buxton, Lady

Attewell, H. C.

George, Lady M Lloyd (Anglesey)

Oldfield, W. H

Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R

Gibbins, J.

Oliver, G. H

Austin, H. Lewis

Gibson, C. W

Orbach, M

Awbery, S. S

Gilzean, A.

Paget, R T

Ayles, W. H.

Gordon-Walker, P. C

Parker, J

Ayrton Gould, Mrs

Greenwood, Rt. Hon A (Wakefield)

Paton, J (Norwich)

Barton, C.

Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)

Pearson, A

Battley, J. R.

Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley

Peart, Caps T. F.

Bechervaise, A E

Guest, Dr. L. Hade

Piratin, P.

Benson, G.

Gunter, R. J

Popplewell, E

Berry, H.

Guy, W. H

Porter, E. (Warrington)

Beswick, F

Haire, John E (Wycombe)

Porter, G. (Leeds)

Bevan, Rt. Hon. A (Ebbw Vale)

Hall, W. G.

Price, M. Philips

Bing, G. H C

Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

Pritt, D. N

Binns, J

Hardy, E. A.

Proctor, W T

Blackburn, A. R

Harris, H. Wilson

Pursey, Cmdr. H

Blenkinsop, A

Hastings, Dr. Somerville

Randall, H E

Blyton, W. R

Haworth, J

Ranger, J

Boardman, H.

Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)

Rankin, J

Bottomley, A. G

Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

Rees-Williams, D

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H W.

Hobson, C R

Reeves, J.

Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

Holman, P

Reid, T. (Swindon)

Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

Rhodes, H.

Bramall, E. A

House, G.

Richards, R

Brook, D. (Halifax)

Hoy, J

Robens, A

Brown, George (Belper)

Hubbard. T

Roberts, W (Cumberland, N.)

Brown, T. J (Ince)

Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

Brown, W. J (Rugby)

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

Royle, C.

Bruce, Maj. D W T

Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W)

Sargood, R

Buchanan, G.

Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Scott-Elliot W

Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)

Irving, W. J.

Segal, Dr. S.

Byers, Frank

Isaacs, Rt Hon G. A.

Shackleton, E. A A

Castle, Mrs. B. A.

Janner, B.

Sharp, Granville

Chamberlain, R. A

Jay, D. P. T

Shawcross, Rt. Hon Sir H. (St. Helens)

Champion, A. J.

Jeger, G. (Winchester)

Shurmer, P.

Clitherow, Dr R

Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)

Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

Cocks, F. S.

Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

Skeffington, A. M.

Collindridge, F

Keenan, W.

Skeffington-Lodge, T C

Collins, V. J

Kendall, W. D

Skinnard, F. W.

Colman, Miss G. M

Kenyon, C

Smith, S. H (Hull, S W.)

Cook, T. F.

Kinley, J.

Snow, Capt J. W.

Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

Kirby, B. V

Soskice, Maj. Sir F.

Corbet, Mrs F. K. (Camberwell, N.W.)

Lavers, S.

Sparks, J. A.

Corlett, Dr. J

Lee, F. (Hulme)

Stamford, W

Cove, W. G.

Levy, B. W

Steele, T.

Crawley, A

Lewis, A W J. (Upton)

Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

Cunningham, P.

Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng Univ.)

Stokes, R. R.

Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

Lipson, D. L.

Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

Davies, Edward (Burslem)

Longden, F.

Stubbs, A. E.

Davies, Harold (Leek)

McAdam, W

Swingler, S

Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

McEntee, V La T

Sylvester, G. O.

Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

McGhee, H. G.

Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

Deer, G.

McKay, J. (Wallsend)

Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

de Freitas, Geoffrey

McKinlay, A. S.

Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

Dobbie, W.

Maclean, N. (Govan

Thomas, D E. (Aberdare)

Dodds, N. N

McLeavy, F.

Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

Donovan, T.

Mallalieu, J. P. W.

Thomas, I O. (Wrekin)

Driberg, T. E. N.

Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

Thomas, George (Cardiff)

Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Marquand, H A

Thurtle, Ernest

Durbin, E F. M

Mayhew, C. P

Timmons, J.

Dye, S.

Medland, H. M

Titterington, M F

Ede, Rt. Hon J. C

Middleton, Mrs. L

Tolley, L

Edelman, M.

Mikardo, Ian

Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G

Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

Mitchison, G. R

Vernon, Maj. W F

Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

Monslow, W.

Viant, S. P

Evans, E. (Lowestoft)

Montague, F

Walker, G. H.

Evans, John (Ogmore)

Moody, A. S.

Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

Morley, R.

Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)

Ewart, R.

Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

Warbey, W. N.

Fairhurst, F

Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

Watson, W M

Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

Wyatt, W.

Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

Williams, D J. (Neath)

Yates, V. F

Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

Young, Sir R. (Newton)

Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

Williams, W. R. (Heston)

Zilliacus, K.

Wilkes, L

Willis, E.

Wilkins, W. A.

Wills, Mrs. E. A

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

Wilson, J. H.

Mr. Simmons and

Mr. Hannan.

NOES.

Agnew, Cmdr. P. G

Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)

Neven-Spence, Sir B

Aitken, Hon. Max

Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)

Nicholson, G.

Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Armagh)

Galbraith, Cmdr T D.

Nield, B (Chester)

Amory, D. Heathooat

Glyn, Sir R.

Noble, Comdr A. H P

Beamish, Maj. T. V. H

Grimston, R. V

Pickthorn, K.

Beechman, N. A.

Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley)

Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)

Birch, Nigel

Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)

Prescott, Stanley

Bossom, A C

Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.

Bower, N.

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C

Ramsay, Maj. S.

Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

Hogg, Hon. Q

Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)

Bullock, Capt. M

Hollis, M. C

Robertson, Sir D. (Streatham)

Challen, C.

Hope, Lord J

Sanderson, Sir F

Channon, H.

Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

Savory, Prof. D. L

Clarke, Col. R. S.

Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

Scott, Lord W.

Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

Jeffreys, General Sir G

Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon H F. C

Kerr, Sir J. Graham

Smithers, Sir W.

Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

Lancaster, Col. C G

Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

Crowder, Capt. John E

Langford-Holt, J.

Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

Cuthbert, W. N.

Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

Stoddart-Scott, Col. M.

Darling, Sir W. Y

Low, Brig. A. R. W.

Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

De la Bère, R.

Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight)

Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)

Digby, S. W.

Mackeson, Brig. H. R

Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd't'n, S.)

Dodds-Parker, A. D.

MacLeod, J.

Thorp. Lt.-Col. R A F

Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P W.

Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

Touche, G. C.

Dower, E. L. G (Caithness)

Manningham-Buller, R E

Walker-Smith, D.

Drewe, C.

Marlowe, A. A. H

Wheatley, Colonel M J

Duthie, W. S.

Marsden, Capt. A

Williams, C. (Torquay)

Eden, Rt. Hon. A

Marshall, D (Bodmin)

York, C

Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter

Marshall, S. H (Sutton)

Fleming, Sqn.-Ldr. E. L.

Medlicott, F.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Fox, Sir G

Morris-Jones, Sir H

Mr. Studholme and

Major Conant.

ADJOURNMENT (WHITSUNTIDE)
House, at its rising Tomorrow, to adjourn till Tuesday, 3rd June.—[Mr. Herbert Morrison.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NATIONAL SERVICE BILL
  Order for Third Reading read.
  3.45 P.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman: I wish to obtain your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on a point of Order. I say at once, I do not raise it in order to make any kind of complaint; indeed, there can be none. Two days ago, when we were all under the impression—the Leader of the House having so announced—that the Report stage of the Bill would take two days, and that the Third Reading would take place immediately after, and on the same day as the conclusion of the Report stage, I. in the names of myself,
  2536
  my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. McGhee) and my hon. Friend the Member for West Ealing (Mr. J. Hudson), sought to hand in to the Table a Motion for the rejection of the Bill.
  I was informed—I make no complaint of it; the Table was, as is usual, quite right—that the Motion could not be accepted because the prior stage had not been concluded; that as that prior stage would not be concluded until the same day as the Third Reading there would be no opportunity to put it on the Order Paper, and that, in those circumstances, the proper thing to do was to move the Motion when the Third Reading was moved, without notice, except, as a matter of courtesy, to let Mr. Speaker know our intention. I, therefore, wrote to Mr. Speaker at that stage and notified him that that was our intention. It happens—and no one could have foreseen it—that the Report stage concluded last night, so there was only a very short opportunity to put down the Motion. The point I am raising is that I did have actual priority, and that only a technicality which nobody could have foreseen

  2537
  prevented the Motion appearing on the Order Paper. In those circumstances, I ask what I am to do.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): It does not seem to me that the hon. Member is prejudiced, except that he has not put his name on the Order Paper. If it is necessary, I give him that assurance.
  3.47 p.m.
  The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  We have had a very long and interesting, and at times late, Debate during the passage of this important Bill through the Committee and Report stages. I do not think the Opposition would say that any Bill in previous history had been subjected to more searching scrutiny and helpful comment, if I may put it in that way, than this Bill during the Committee and Report stages. I am bound to say, that as a result of the use of the usual Parliamentary procedure a great many changes of an administrative character have been made in the Bill which undoubtedly improve it and will, I think, help not only to assist in its administrative working, but also, in the long run, in the efficiency of our progress towards the attainment of our general object. For that I am obliged to the House.
  It is true that there have been a few Amendments which were very much desired by some hon. Members, but which we felt we could not accept. That was not always because we were of an entirely different opinion with regard to the desirability of the objective of particular Amendments. It was largely because—in respect of a Bill which will not commence operation· until 1st January, 1949, and having regard to the work that has to he done by the Services between now and then, and the different conditions they will have to meet—we desired some latitude. I think, perhaps not in every case, but in most of the cases where Amendments were rejected, they referred to matters in respect of which we shall be required to lay regulations before the House in due course, when hon. Members will have an opportunity to make what comments they wish to make upon them.
  Of course, I recognise that there is one major change in the substance of the Bill,
  2538
  made during Committee, on which there was a very hot Debate, namely, the reduction of the full-time period for which the National Service men can be called up from 18 months to 12 months. We were subjected to considerable criticism on this change from two main points of view. One was that we had come to a most hasty decision, and that, therefore, the timing of the announcement was altogether wrong. The second was that it would seriously interfere with what is desirable and what had been intended in regard to the efficiency attained during the training period Another comment made, was that we had been subjected to undue political pressure by a minority. On that, let me say, without wishing in any way to give offence, that we have been, in the course of the Committee and Report stages, also subjected to a good deal of Parliamentary pressure. We have seen no reason at all why we should not meet that pressure from all parts of the House—very often for concessions, as we have done. And if, in fact, there had been no other reason for our changing the period from 18 months to 12 months except what was said in the House, we still should have had a measure of justification. Or else what is Parliament for? However, I do not want to make this particular case tonight; I tried to make it in dealing with the Amendment itself in Committee.
  I feel that the great majority of the people of this country are behind us in supporting the objective of a Bill for national service in the circumstances in which we have submitted the case to the House. It is highly desirable in that connection that we should have the fullest possible co-operation and support from all quarters of the country in making the Measure really and truly successful. With regard to the reduction from 18 months to 12 months there were other views besides those expressed in the House of Commons with regard to the change in the period. I have refreshed my memory I did not use this point the other day at the time of our heated discussion, because I did not think it would help the situation then, but I put this now as an indication of other views. Take a newspaper with a very wide circulation in the Conservative sphere, the "Daily Express." In its leader of 2nd April, whilst drawing our attention to the need wherever possible to save manpower, it said:

  2539
  "The nation is unconvinced that its young men's careers must be interrupted for as long as 18 months, if Britain is to maintain efficient fighting forces. The break is too long. It is bad for the boy, and bad for the nation."
  And when we did, following the usual Parliamentary procedure, put the Amendment down on the Order Paper, they said, on Saturday, 5th April:
  "Now, is this decision on conscription in the good list or the bad? Definitely the good. Praise the Government for its Easter gift. Man-starved industry will welcome it. So will the lads who are carving out careers, and the parents who nurture and advise them."
  Moreover, I think if we look at the columns of a paper of a quite different character we shall see that the change is also approved in a paper like the "Economist."
  I had opportunities also of taking soundings with industrial leaders as to the position. I found them all very willing to help in any manner required of them—I want to make that clear—in regard to national service. But they expressed the view to me that it would be very much better for industry if it could be on the basis of a 12 months' period. I shall, therefore, now confine myself to saying that the reduced period is in the Bill which is submitted to the House for Third Reading and that as I have already promised, we shall do our best to make the training provided in 12 months as intensive and efficient as possible. It means, of course, as I said when moving the Amendment, that we shall have to rely upon regular troops for manning the more remote stations that we have to garrison We shall be able to use only part of the time of those called up under the National Service Bill at home, or in the very near stations like those in the German theatre. Therefore, we must do everything in our power in the meantime to improve and to speed up recruitment for the Regular Army in order to meet those commitments. I can also say, because it was mentioned several times in Committee, that it is incumbent upon us to make the best use of the machinery of the manpower committees set up for each of the three Services to avoid all possible waste in the Forces as they are at present constituted.
  I do not wish in moving the Third Reading of the Bill to seek to hide from the House or the nation the great importance of the effect of this Bill upon our
  2540
  national life. We are bound to recognise how important that is. After all, the Bill imposes national service, not as in 1939 on the eve of war, but for a substantial period after the end of the war. It will mean that we shall call up regularly about 200,000 men from their normal life for 12 months training in each year of the operation of the Bill. We will train these men for 12 months, not for a shorter period of six months as under the Act of 1939. The Bill imposes a further liability upon those who are called up, for reserve training for a further period of six years. It must involve, therefore, substantial adjustments in the life of the individual and of the family, and necessary adjustments in industry. Apart from the whole-time training for which it provides, it provides also for a large scale reserve to be maintained.
  We have always indicated to the House that one of the main reasons for the introduction of the Measure is that it will indicate to all concerned, and all who observe, that we intend to defend ourselves at all times, against aggression and to be ready to support the United Nations organisation in the collective measures which it takes in the same direction in the interests of peace. As I said on the Second Reading our main objective is to prevent war. That remains, and must remain the objective for this party for which I speak, and this Government for which I speak. We shall bend ourselves unceasingly to that task. But I ask the House and I ask the country, now that we have come to this stage of the consideration of this Measure, and with the undertakings that I have given, to give us their whole-hearted co-operation, recognising that the objective of the Government at the moment is not to launch the country into a permanent system of conscription. We are meeting the situation in the terms of the Bill for a five years period, but the Act comes to an end at the end of that time unless there is an actual vote—an affirmative vote—of the House of Commons.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: It can be extended, as well.
  Mr. Alexander: It will be entirely in the hands of the House of Commons. I want the House to be assured that it is not the idea to place permanently for all time upon this House and upon the

  2541
  country, the principle of conscription, but to meet the situation now; the House can revise it when the time comes.
  Mr. Blackburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to go a little further, and say whether, if and when it is possible in the future to find by voluntary recruitment the number of recruits needed, it will be the Government's policy to bring conscription to an end?
  Mr. Alexander: We shall have to look at the position as it arises. I do not want to be misunderstood on this matter at all. The thing that counts much more with me in such circumstances is what is to be the state of the world, and how far we can progress, as we all want to do, with the United Nations organisation and general measures for peace. We have to examine any system of service from a number of angles, but one of the most important is what would be the basis of the reserves which could be built up under a voluntary system, in the circumstances through which we might be passing at a particular time.
  4.0 P.m.
  Mr. Clement Davies: I beg to move, to leave out "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add "upon this day six months."
  I opposed the Second Reading of this Bill; I opposed it on the Committee stage, and I oppose it now, because it introduces into the system of this country during a time of peace, a constitutional change in our mode of living to which we are opposed. We opposed, as I say, on the Second Reading; we are even more strongly opposed to the Third Reading, and, if I wanted any arguments beyond those which I desire to advance myself, I should find them in the speech which the right hon. Gentleman has just made, and in the contradiction between the statement which he made in reply to a question, very rightly put by my hon. Friend opposite, and the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when this matter was first discussed in this House.
  The Bill brings about, as the right hon. Gentleman himself admitted, one of the greatest constitutional changes ever brought about in our life in this country. It is of the very first magnitude. I have never known a constitutional change, of
  2542
  this magnitude, introduced with such a meagre amount of fact. So few statements have been provided upon which it could be justified. Certainly, no such change has ever been brought into this House, without the public of this country being first consulted. I am certain that the bulk of the supporters of the Government, when they were seeking the suffrages of the people in 1945, never suggested for a moment that they would be parties to this great constitutional step of introducing conscription into our lives in normal times of peace. But the right hon. Gentleman is justifying himself, not by appealing to the public, but by appealing to one who has, hitherto, never been regarded, I should imagine, as one of the supporters of the right hon. Gentleman. He has appealed to Lord Beaverbrook and his papers. As far as the right hon. Gentleman is concerned apparently this is a matter which can be decided by the "Daily Express" or "Sunday Express," and by consultation with a few industrial leaders; and, if they are in favour of it, we can change the whole of our Constitution. We, however, prefer to submit these matters in the usual way to the democracy of this country, to ask them what they think, and to be guided by them.
  There are three views about conscription, two of them wrong, in my opinion, and one of them right. There is the view that conscription is right, whatever be the circumstances, whether there is a national emergency or not—the view that it would be a good thing, at all times, to introduce it into our national life, so that all young men should be given a course of training in the Services. That view I consider to be absolutely wrong. Equally wrong, I think are those, whose views I respect, who seem to think that in no circumstances would conscription be right, even if we were in danger and there was a threat of war. My view, and the view of my colleagues, is that, if there is a national emergency, and a threat to all that we hold sacred, our traditions, customs and mode of life, we should all rally to the defence of our country and our ideals. That is why, during the Second Reading Debate, I asked three questions of the right hon. Gentleman, to which I did not get replies. I will ask them again, and I hope that the Minister of Labour, who, I understand, is to

  2543
  reply to the Debate, will give us definite answers to them.
  My first question is: If this Bill is necessary, it must be because there are certain commitments of which the Government are aware, and which can only be met by a Measure of this kind. That being so, may I ask what are these commitments? We are entitled to know them. This is a democratic country, and the people themselves are responsible for the Government they elect, and for the acts of that Government. They will be called upon to defend their country in time of danger, and, therefore, they are entitled to know what are the facts about our commitments, or what may be the dangers which compelled the Government to bring in such a Measure. I ask again that we should be given that information here and now. It is extraordinary that, after the greatest war in history, when so many sacrifices have been incurred and millions of lives have been lost, this Government, somehow or other, seem to think that there is some danger which compels us to maintain, not merely a voluntary Army, but a conscript Army, in time of peace. What are those reasons?
  Secondly, why is it that these commitments cannot be met by the voluntary system? Hitherto, we have met all our commitments. We have been policing the whole world. That burden was being undertaken by us, not merely in the Far East, but in India, Egypt and other places which we are hopeful, today, will be capable of defending themselves and undertaking their own responsibilities without calling upon extra assistance from us. In the past, we were capable of taking care of all those people with our voluntary Army and Navy. America is just realising the great debt that she, and I think, the world, owes to this country for policing the world for the space of at least 150 years. Why cannot the commitments on which we are now entering. be met by the voluntary system?
  My third question is this: If our commitments cannot be met by the voluntary system, how can they be met by the conscription of 200,000 young men for a period of 12 months? What is there about that system which makes such a world of difference in enabling us to carry out these commitments? I agree that there are certain arguments in favour of conscription. It is a systematic method
  2544
  of raising our Forces. Those responsible for the Forces will know where they stand; their task will be easier, and they will not have to make any effort to find recruits. There will be no need for material improvement in wages or amenities, or in conditions of service. All these things will be easier under conscription than under the voluntary system, for there will be no need to compete with industry. In some respects, again, the conscription system is cheaper, because there is no need to compete with industry. There will be no need to pay the men the kind of wage which they would get if they worked in industry instead of joining the Services.
  Apart from the question of personal Liberty, however, let us consider the disadvantages—the dislocation to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his speech in the life of each individual, and the dislocation in the life of a young man of i8. According to the right hon. Gentleman, in a statement on Second Reading or during the Committee stage, many of the men could not be trained in this country and would have to be sent to Germany. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that parents in this country view with a great deal of alarm the sending of these young mer. into Germany, with a great deal of free time on their hands and running verb considerable risks that may affect their whole lives hereafter? The right hon. Gentleman has consulted great industrialists. Does he realise their position; and does he know if they are prepared to take these young men from 16 to 18 years of age? Is it not much more likely that among these young men after they leave school and until they are called up, there will be a great deal of unemployment, of that they may go into "dead-end" jobs, which cannot but have a deleterious effect on their mentality and outlook?
  Further, how can the present method, under the Bill as it now stands lead to any real economy in manpower? We are going to keep these young men in training for 12 months. Some people take longer to learn a thing than others; it may take 12 months to teach one boy something that another may learn in six. The pace will have to be the pa e of the slowest. Much more serious than that is the use we shall be making of our Regular Army. Instead of training themselves

  2545
  to be fit and efficient, a great deal of their time, and a great number of them, will be required to train these young people, who are only called up for 12 months. I cannot see that there will be much economy in manpower, and certainly it does not seem to be a very strong argument in regard to making efficient the Regular Army on which, after all, we shall have to depend. Although I have said that it is cheaper in certain respects, it seems to me that it is uneconomical. Quite apart from the individual, it will be uneconomical and expensive in other directions, because it will be necessary not only to enrol and clothe, equip and feed, and administer these 200,000 men and to do so every year; it will mean the demobilisation of 200,000 every year, which will be an additional expense. I am amazed at the attitude of H.M. Government. The right hon. Gentleman said that this Bill was for only five years, with powers in this House to renew it from year to year.
  Mr. S. Silverman: No.
  Mr. Davies: With power, then, by Order in Council to renew it from year to year.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Not year to year.
  Mr. Davies: Well, with power to renew it. Can there be any reason other than that it is the intention of those responsible for the introduction of this Bill to make this a permanent feature? Can there be any doubt that if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway get back into power again they will welcome this power? [HON. MEMBERS: "And they want it."] May I remind the right hon. Gentleman of the words used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer when this subject was first debated in the House. In answer to an interruption by an hon. Lady behind him, he said, "It is the principle for which we stand." It is the principle that we are fighting. What we are fighting for is the principle of individual liberty, but His Majesty's Government today have committed themselves to the principle that they will use direction of these young people. What is more, the Chancellor, when again challenged about the use of the word "permanent," said that it was a difficult word to define. He did not reject it; he rode away by saying that it was difficult to define.
  2546
  I repeat that there is not the slightest doubt in my mind, and I am sure that there is not the slightest doubt in the minds of many people, that the intention is to render this a permanent feature of our national life, for the first time in our long history. We do not know what are our commitments today. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman knows what they are. He certainly said he did not know what they were likely to be in 1949; nor does he know now what will be the size of the Army required in 1949. I could have understood it if the Government had contented themselves with saying, "We have conscription to the end of 1048; times are not yet normal, so let us continue on a wartime footing for another 12 months, and see where we are," instead of coming here today and asking that it should be a permanent feature. They have failed completely to prove that the required number cannot be raised by a voluntary system. Time and time again, one has heard this interruption from the other side: "Of course you can get the numbers in the Services. Why do you have large numbers of unemployed?" What did that mean? That the Services were offering better terms than industry; that industry was not absorbing them. Industry was refusing to take them, industry was driving them on to the dole, and the Services were offering them more and offering them a better life. Does any hon. or right hon. Gentleman today challenge it that if every young man were given an opportunity of saying, "This is what industry can offer me in wages, amenities, conditions and pensions; what the Services can offer me will be better," we would get them? We have never failed to get them in the past. We are introducing this proposal today because the Treasury think it cheaper to have this system, rather than compete with what industry will be able to offer.
  What is the position? The position, as far as I can make out, is this: The Government propose to reduce the numbers from 1,087,000 in March, 1948, to some 700,000 in March, 1949. Both the right hon. Gentlemen concerned have admitted that the most they can get in any year under the conscript system will be 200,000. That means that if they require in the Services 700,000, they will have to attract 500,000 by the voluntary system. They will be attracting 500,000 by the

  2547
  voluntary system, and they will have to fall back on conscription to find the other 200,000. That seems to me to be nonsense and a farce. There are only two ways in which we can get our men for the Services.
  One is the direction of men, the use of compulsion; the other is by proper wages and conditions. The Minister, and those supporting him, have said publicly that they are in favour of making conditions better for everyone, of bringing about social justice, of seeing that proper wages and amenities are provided. Instead of pursuing that policy, the Government, in this Bill, have said, "We will abandon it with regard to those aged 18, and use compulsion instead." The Government have failed to prove the need for this Bill; they have failed to prove that what they have set out to do, will be done effectively by this Bill; they have failed to provide that, given proper terms, they will not get young men by the voluntary system.
  Finally, there is, in the Bill, a very great danger. There is left in it the power to the Executive, the Government of the day, to direct labour. There cannot be any doubt about that. This matter is not to be decided by this House; the definitions have not been left for the House. It has been left to the Government of the day to decide what sections or classes of labour will be exempted from military service. The Government have sought to exempt miners and agricultural workers. Suppose that between now and 1954, there are enough miners or agricultural workers, but a shortage of workers in other industries. The Government of the day might then say, "We will make an order exempting that particular industry, or class, from military service." That, in effect, means the direction of labour. What then becomes of the statement issued by the Prime Minister, in his preface to a White Paper, that this Government would never stand for the direction of labour? That statement was made solemnly to the public in February. Yet, in this Bill, the Government are going back on their word, and taking power to direct labour wherever they desire to direct it. For those reasons, we would like to see this Bill rejected.
  4.22 p.m.
  Mr. Ayles: I very much regret having to oppose the Third Reading
  2548
  of this Bill. For nearly half a century I, and thousands of others, have been doing a great deal of pioneer work, at great personal sacrifice, to establish this Government in power. During the whole of that time our party has been opposed to compulsory military service, and I consider that the best service I can render to my party is to support it when it is right, and faithful to its old principles, and oppose it when it is wrong, and goes back on them. It has been said in previous Debates that our party was opposed to conscription up to 1939. I say, without hesitation, that we were opposed to conscription up to the General Election. In the much-quoted document, "Let us Face the Future," on which we fought the. Election, it will be found that the Labour Party stands for freedom of worship, of speech, and of the Press. It states that the Labour Party will see that those freedoms are kept and enlarged, so that we can enjoy again the personal and civil liberties we sacrificed to win the war—
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: Is that why the Government set up an inquiry into the Press?
  Mr. Ayles: By no stretch of imagination does anyone think that what was said in that pamphlet did not include freedom from industrial and military conscription. My fundamental objection to this Bill is that conscription assumes that the State is God, with power of life and death, not only over the bodies and minds of its citizens, but over their souls as well. That is the Nazi doctrine of the State God. It is not the Christian doctrine, nor is it a democratic doctrine. I believe that man owes loyalty to the State, but I believe that he owes a higher loyalty to God. That is what is meant by freedom of religion and worship, in the Atlantic Charter. Unless we are free to worship God with a clear conscience it is futile to talk of freedom. Very often, loyalty to God and loyalty to the State coincide, but where there is a clash, the greater loyalty should hold. No one can decide that loyalty for the individual. It is his own responsibility. For the State to do so, is for the State to usurp the prerogative of God. Every day this House sits we acknowledge that. Every Sitting of this House opens with Prayers. Those Prayers are an acknowledgment, not of an inferior, but of a

  2549
  higher authority even than this Parliament, or this Government.
  Under this Bill, the State is to be supreme. The State is to determine what is right or wrong in the most fundamental of human relationships. It assumes that if the State says it is right to kill, then it is right, even although we know that that may mean death to innocent women and children in Japan. If the State says that the war is a righteous war, then it is a righteous war, whether it is in South Africa, Europe, Asia, or elsewhere. The individual has no say in the matter at all, although God holds him, and not the State, responsible for his conduct. I affirm my belief in the sanctity of the human personality. Some of my hon. Friends believe that they are justified in taking human life in certain circumstances. They divide wars into two kinds—right and wrong. But the conscript has no choice.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman should confine himself to what is in the Bill.
  Mr. Ayles: With due respect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, this Bill seeks to conscript men, to train them for war, and to take part in war. It destroys their powers of choice on whether they will take part in a war. The gravamen of our charge against the Government is that this Bill destroys a choice which members of the Government have claimed in the past, in regard to wars that have been waged during our own life time. I suggest, in all seriousness, that the State takes our freedom of choice away from us as soon as this Bill becomes law. It is the State that says what is right and what is wrong, what a man shall do and what he shall not do. It is not only the State, but the Government which happens to be in power at the time which assumes to itself the prerogatives of the State, and not necessarily of the people. We condemn that principle as applied to Germany and Russia, but capitulate to it in Great Britain. It is because conscription is the fundamental denial of our religious freedoms, based on the freedoms for which our forefathers went to the stake, that I wish to put forward, against it, my strongest opposition.
  There are other reasons why I am opposed to this Bill. There is the reason that it is a thoroughly undemocratic Bill;
  2550
  there is the reason that it would mean economic disaster; there is the reason that it would mean the weakening of our trade unions. There are dozens of other reasons for opposing this Bill. But above all is the reason that it is a denial that God is the paramount factor in the life of the individual, that God comes before the State and where the State and God clash, it is our duty to God which must prevail.
  4.31 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Cuthbert Headlam; We have heard an eloquent and conscientious speech from the hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Ayles), and I for one do not intend to quarrel with him in what he said. He is perfectly entitled to his opinions, which, no doubt, he sincerely holds, but I would venture to suggest to him that it is not the Government which decides peace and war in this country; it is Parliament, and Parliament represents the country. If Parliament decides we ought to go to war for reasons which justify us doing so Parliament speaks for the country, and I am one of those who hold that it is the duty of the country to follow Parliament.
  We have had long Debates on this Bill and those who have listened to them throughout its stages will agree that they show that all parties in the House dislike the idea of conscription in times of peace. That is perfectly consistent with the tradition of this country. We have always been opposed to conscription, because conscription is supposed to be an infringement of the right of the individual, but the real reason why the people of this country have been opposed in the past to military service is not because it infringes the right of the individual but because the maintenance of a standing Army in time of peace was considered to be a threat to the civil liberties of the country. The Army was a weapon in the hands of the King to be used against Parliament, though, oddly enough, this fear of military rule really dated from the days of Oliver Cromwell.
  I was rather surprised, therefore, to hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman who leads one section of the Liberal Party make a speech in favour of a regular standing Army rather than the kind of Army that we get under conscription. It is perfectly clear that the liberties of the subject are far less likely to be at-

  2551
  tacked by any would-be dictator of this country, if that Army is a national Army and not a regular Army paid for its services. I for one personally have always believed in a system of national service, that is to say, a national Army, and I believe that a conscript Army would be more careful of the liberties of the country than a standing Army, which would be a force entirely under the charge and control of the Government of the day.
  Mr. Emrys Roberts: Subject to the Army Acts.
  Sir C. Headlam: I quite agree, but it Parliament is controlled by a Government that is in complete power I do not suppose the Army Acts or any other Acts would stand in the way of a dictatorship. I think that this should be clear to anyone who thinks about this matter seriously. A large majority of this House were in favour of this Bill as originally introduced by the Government. There can be no doubt about that judging by the figures in the Division on the Second Reading. There was only a small minority, including one section of the Liberal Party and certain people who are opposed to militarism of any kind, namely, the pacifists, who were opposed to the Government's proposals. The House accepted the assurances that were made by the Government, and, after all, the Government are best qualified to make those assurances.
  Mr. S. Silverman: Which assurances?
  Sir C. Headlam: If the hon. Gentleman will wait perhaps he will hear. The Government assured us that it was impossible to raise adequate forces by other means than by conscription, and that conditions throughout the world were such that they were not prepared to be responsible for the defence of this country unless they had sufficient forces behind them. In view of those commitments and the dangers which prevail throughout the world at the present time, it was necessary therefore in their opinion to adopt conscription in order to provide for our national defence until such time as we could depend upon the United Nations organisation for the preservation of peace throughout the globe. The object of this Bill and of those of us who support it, is not to make war; it is to prevent war. The House understood most assuredly
  2552
  when the Bill was introduced that it was for the purpose of maintaining peace that the Government presented it.
  Of course there was a minority in the House who opposed the Bill. I have already alluded to them, and we have had two speeches from them this afternoon, which indicated the reasons for their objection. There is the pacifist who looks upon any form of war from the moral point of view; no one can argue with people who base their objections on morality alone. How the public as a whole is viewing this Bill it is difficult to say. I do not know what has been the experience of other hon. Members. but I have had fewer letters of protest against this Bill than I have had against any other Bill of similar importance. The charges which are levelled against this Bill in whatever correspondence I have had on it are three in number. The first is that conscription is a symbol of totalitarianism and against the whole moral traditions of the Labour Party. I do not know what the tradition of the Labour Party about military service is. All I do remember is that when the Labour Party was in opposition, and utterly irresponsible, it took very little interest whatever with regard to military preparedness. I notice with great satisfaction that the Prime Minister in a public speech not so very long ago, advised his followers that as they were now in office, and were in charge of the country, those irresponsible gestures against defence organisation which he and they delighted in in the past, could not now be indulged in. My correspondents objections also refer to conscription as "a symbol of totalitarianism." What exactly does that mean? Conscription and national armies, the levée en masse, date from the French Revolution, which can scarcely be described as a totalitarian movement in the sense in which the word is used now.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: It dates from the days of the French reaction.
  Sir C. Headlam: It dates from the early days of the French Revolution, the days of Danton, Carnot and the battle of Valmy. Another of the arguments against the Bill which I have received is that immense conscript armies provoke fears between nations and can only lead to insecurity and war. That may be, but we are faced with the fact that we have

  2553
  had to fight two wars with a small regular army and untrained reserves against vast armies in other countries—
  Mr. Stephen: And we won.
  Sir C. Headlam: I will come to that in a moment. As a result of not having national service we have had to fight two long wars, beginning them at a great disadvantage. Those who served in that 1914–18 war are not likely to forget the unpreparedness with which we started that war and what it cost us. I have always been a supporter of conscription because I believe it to be the only fair and democratic way to proceed with regard to defence, and my views were intensely strengthened when I saw for the first time what it meant to send unprepared troops into battle.
  No one who was at the battle of Loos is ever likely to forget what he saw there or to take the view that it is right and proper that men should be called to the Colours in a great burst of patriotic enthusiasm and then sent into battle unprepared or only partially prepared for war. That is why it is perfectly absurd for us in this House or for any body of persons to try to differentiate between conscription after war has been declared and conscription in time of peace. It is, in my opinion, wholly wrong to send gallant untrained volunteers to meet the enemy and take the consequences; it is the duty of the country to see that the Armed Forces are trained for war.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is it not the case that if we had had conscription before 1914, with the men trained as they were being trained then, they would have been quite unprepared for the type of war that developed in 1914?
  Sir C. Headlam: No. I should have thought that it might be obvious even to the hon. Member that a man who has been trained and prepared for any form of work is more likely to be successful in that work than a man who has not been trained. That was most clearly demonstrated at the beginning of the 1914–18 war, and again at the beginning of the recent war If training was necessary in those wars, when the work of the ordinary soldier was comparatively simple, how much more necessary must it be now that his duties have become
  2554
  so much more difficult? Another objection to conscription that has been urged is that it will mean a waste of manpower and would prevent economic recovery. That argument has been advanced during the course of these discussions, but it amounts to very little because it is perfectly clear that once you have settled on a system of military service, however short or long the period, the country will adapt itself to that system. It must do so. Everybody will be in the same position and the difficulties envisaged by those who put forward the objection have been faced in the past by other countries and have been surmounted. I have, therefore, come to the conclusion that the feelings of the people of this country are rather like this. Nobody wants conscription; everybody would rather be without it. I have never discussed the subject of conscription with any Frenchman without his telling me that he disliked the idea of it intensely before he began his service, that it was not so had as lie expected, and that he was very glad he had done it I believe that when it comes to the point that will be the view of nine out of ten young men in this country who are asked to do national service
  To come to the particular point which I wish to urge now—the change which the Government made in the Bill during the Committee stage—I think that reducing the period of training from 18 months to 12 months, was one of the greatest mistakes that could possibly have been made. I should myself, if I had been in charge of this Bill, have fixed a period of two years' military service, because I do not believe it is possible to train a good soldier, and certainly not a sailor, in a shorter period. I believe that two years is the right length of time. Eighteen months was a compromise. When the period is reduced to 12 months it becomes almost a farce so far as training is concerned. I have had an interesting experience, which I expect has been shared by other hon. Members, in that I have had several letters from soldiers abroad begging me to vote for the 18 months period rather than, for 12 months for the simple reason that, as they say, "For the first four or five months in the Army we do not know what we are doing at all. When the period is reduced to 12 months it leaves us with only six or seven months at the most in which to learn our

  2555
  trade, and that is impossible." However, that remains for the Government to look into when the time comes, and if this Bill becomes law I shall be agreeably surprised if the period of 12 months is found sufficient.
  It must be giving those in authority at the War Office an immense amount of trouble trying to change suddenly from 18 months to 12 months. No wonder the Minister in charge of the Bill could give us no assurances in the Debate last night as to the length of the period of tapering off of service. The chaos at the War Office must be almost unbelievable, and I cannot understand how any Minister cap have had the face to come down to this House and make so important a change in the Bill without a feeling of shame and humiliation. In fact, I cannot imagine how he could continue to remain in office. He assured us on the Second Reading, that the period of service had been settled by the Cabinet and the military authorities after the most careful consideration of all the problems that had to be faced, and a few hours afterwards—because of a revolt in his own Party and because, as he told us this afternoon, the "Daily Express" held a contrary opinion—he comes back to the House and absolutely eats his own words. I cannot imagine how such a Minister can be tolerated any longer.
  Mr. McGovern: Does not the hon. and gallant Member remember another revolt which took place in this House, when Parliament declared for equal pay for men and women, and the then Prime Minister came down and compelled the majority to eat their words, and go back into the Lobbies and vote the other way?
  Sir C. Headlam: I was not in the House at that time but I do not think the cases were similar. [AN HON. MEMBER: "That was the other way round."] In any case, the hon. Member's intervention did not seem to me to be relevant. It is seldom that I express my opinions of Ministers very strongly in this House, but I could not refrain from saying what I thought about the action of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence in this case.
  4.39 P.m.
  Mr. Sydney Silverman (Nelson and Collie): I think that for many Members of this House this is a melancholy occa-
  2556
  sion, and I regret very much to notice that at such a momentous time, there is not a representative of any of the Services on the Government Front Bench. It is true that there is a Cabinet Minister present who, let me say, has been almost invariably present throughout these discussions, and I regard it as symbolical that it should be my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I think that the House was entitled to expect that the Minister of Defence, who moved the Third Reading, might at least have stayed with us for a little time, to hear what the House thought; also that the representatives of the Services who had been clamouring for this reversal of Socialist policy should also be here in order to hear what the House thinks of it.
  Before coming to the particular view which leads me to speak and vote against the Government on this occasion, I think we are entitled to ask that the Government shall clear up certain ambiguities. I can understand the argument in favour of compulsion as a principle, and I can understand the argument against the principle of compulsion as such. I want to know from the Government—and I think the country is entitled to know and the Labour Party are entitled to know—whether they have now come down in favour of the principle of compulsion for military service. I ask that because they speak with different voices. My hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), in a speech remarkable as it was unexpected and unconvincing, contended for the principle. I concede the point at once, that there has always been a section of Socialist opinion in favour of the principle of relative conscription. They have been quite consistent and rational, and there is a case to be made out for their point of view. They point to Socialist parties on the Continent; they point to France and to other countries. They say that since this is an onerous, an unpleasant but a necessary job, the fairest way for a Socialist Government to deal with it is to let everyone come in—let everyone be trained, and let everyone do his share. They have never seen anything wrong with that; they thought it the true Socialist view. They have pleaded for a citizen Army, and for the democratisation of the Army. They contend it is in every way right, that we should be able to call upon everyone to

  2557
  share the burden of national defence. But they have been a minority.
  The great majority of the Labour movement has always held that that view, however plausible, however rational, and however convincing to some, is mistaken. They have said it is mistaken for a variety of reasons, many of which have already been given from both sides of the House. They have said it most insistently, because they have never been able to see—and I confess I cannot see it at this moment—how, logically, you can distinguish between compulsion for military service, and compulsion for any other national service. There is no rational ground on which you can distinguish the principle of the one from the principle of the other. Distinctions are suggested, and they are real distinctions; they are not, however, distinctions of principle but of degree of emphasis. There can be no distinction between compelling people to go into the Army because national defence is necessary, and because the Army is a distasteful occupation, and compelling people to go into the mines, because coal is necessary, and mining is a distasteful occupation. The majority of the Labour movement have always felt that, since these two principles cannot be divided in that way, and since the logical implication of compelling people to serve in the Army is the right of the State to direct people in other directions—certainly in their industrial life—in so far as the nation depends upon it, then we must oppose the principle.
  Sir Arthur Salter: Is there not sometimes a difference of degree so great that it becomes a difference in kind? Is there not such a difference between compulsion for a period of 12 months, and the kind of compulsion which would last throughout a man's working life?
  Mr. Silverman: That may be so, but the obligation imposed upon a man under this Bill is an obligation which lasts throughout his working life. The right hon. Gentleman does not suppose that this is an obligation which ends at the end of the 12 months' service, or when a man has done his 60 days over the five years. The obligation lasts so long as the man is fit, and provided there is a necessity for his service by declaration of war, or if invasion takes place.
  2558
  It is a lifelong obligation just as much as anything else.
  Sir A. Salter: Then the hon. Member is against conscription not only in peace but in war?
  Mr. Silverman: I have not said so.
  Sir A. Salter: Why not?
  Mr. Silverman: I am perfectly ready to deal with questions and to give way as often as Members like, but at the moment I was not presuming to defend the principle. I was merely saying that whereas there has always been a minority of Socialists in favour of military conscription, the great majority have rejected it for the reasons which I gave and which I for my part share. I cannot see at this moment, when the whole fate of the great creative industrial revolution upon which we are engaged is in jeopardy for the want of 600,000 men, how my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench or any member of the party in favour of military conscription can possibly be against industrial conscription. I know that we are all against it, but how can you argue that there is no logical or rational right to impose direction of labour in industry when the whole economic system is in danger of crashing for the want of it, if you commit yourself to military conscription in order to meet commitments which are not our commitments now, and an eventuality which may never arise, in order to satisfy some speculative demand, in some remote and distant future, under conditions we cannot foresee? Let me warn my right hon. Friends that that is the case right hon. Gentlemen opposite will put against us, if ever they get the opportunity, if ever the sides are reversed, and if ever they feel it is necessary because of the national interest; and the national interest in peace is just as important in the minds of most people as the national interest in war. If ever they are in power, and they feel that their purposes cannot be served without industrial direction of labour, they will bring in industrial direction of labour, and my right hon. Friends will not be able to resist them because they have sold the pass today by this Bill.
  Therefore, we are entitled to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer was right when he declared that we are in

  2559
  favour of military conscription because the principle is right, quite apart from the local accidental circumstances, or whether the Minister of Defence was right when he said this afternoon that we are not imposing military conscription permanently but only to meet an immediate urgency. Surely the Cabinet ought to speak with one voice in a matter of this kind? We heard them on the Committee stage speaking with about six voices, but that was understandable, that was when they were dealing, in the early hours of the morning, with the detailed machinery of this important constitutional Measure, in circumstances when they ought not to have been called upon to deal with it, and in a rushed and hasty procedure the necessity for which I have never been able to understand. I can understand that Ministers taken unawares about the interpretation of a detail of machinery may differ among themselves and then resolve their differences when different circumstances enable them to consult, investigate and inquire. But I cannot understand why two leading Members of the inner Cabinet should speak with different voices about the principle of a Measure of this kind.
  Let us suppose that he who speaks last speaks with the greater authority, and since the Minister of Defence spoke last, let us suppose that he represents the true mind of the Government on this matter. If we are to accept that, it means that this is not a permanent Measure. It is not going to be renewed if—but, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if what?
  Mr. Blackburn: If they can get them by voluntary recruitment.
  Mr. S. Silverman: If they can get them in by voluntary recruitment? My hon. Friend, who always speaks with the voice of the Cabinet in these matters, probably knows, so let me accept it from him that what the Defence Minister meant to say was, "if we can get them by voluntary recruitment." But how do you get people by voluntary recruitment when you have a conscription Bill in force? You get all you want by compulsion, do you not? There is no scope for voluntary recruitment. How are you to test your voluntary machinery under a conscription law? Therefore it follows that that condition, which my hon. Friend said is the real thing the Government have in
  2560
  mind—I am prepared to take it from him—can never be satisfied while you have a conscription Act on the Statute Book, because nobody will ever know.
  Mr. Blackburn: If my hon. Friend will forgive me—it is always necessary for anybody, in business or in politics, to take a reasonable estimate, and the Government would be perfectly capable, at a certain stage when our troops can be reduced to a particular figure, of saying that on a reasonable estimate they could get that figure by voluntary recruitment.
  Mr. Silverman: My hon. Friend is now changing his ground. He is no longer saying that it depends on whether you can get them by voluntary enlistment; he is now saying that it depends on how many you want. That is quite another matter, and when it comes to a Government estimate of what they are going to need, how long they are going to need it, and whether they can get it by voluntary enlistment, well, we have had a lot of estimates during the last few weeks, and they have not always stood by them. Why should we have any more confidence in a Government statement that it needs a period of 12 months when they told us only a day or two before that it inevitably needed 18, and it turned out that it did not at all?
  What change of circumstances was it which the Defence Minister himself said might induce the Government not to ask the House to extend the principle of this Bill beyond 1954? He said: "if the world was in a more settled state." That is a very exact and precise yardstick, is it not? When, in our lifetime, is the world likely to be in so settled a state that we shall not need armies? What is the cause, what is the nature of the unsettled state as it now exists, which compels us to have this Measure temporarily? Is there going to be a war between now and 1954, and if so, with whom? With Germany? Or are we to take sides and say as the American State Department says that the task of our foreign policy is to checkmate Communism? So far as we are concerned in this country and in this party, and the Government and the Foreign Secretary have said so, our commitments in international affairs are limited by the United Nations Charter and by nothing else.
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: Rubbish.
  Mr. Silverman: The hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to say that the United Nations Charter is rubbish if he so believes, but it happens to be the only hope of the world. In the opinion of almost everybody in the world, it is the only hope of the world—it may be a forlorn hope, I do not know, but forlorn hope or not, there is no other. So far as this side is concerned, apart from the absolute pacifists who will take no violent action of any kind in any circumstances, the rest of us are prepared to take all the violent action that our obligations under the United Nations Charter involve. I am certain of that, but I have read the United Nations Charter and most of the publications about it, and I can find nothing in it about combating Communism, nothing at all. I am no Communist—I suppose there is not a Member of this House who would be unhappier under a Communist regime than I should be—I think I may claim that—but it seems to me that if we are planning either our foreign commitments or our defence policy on the notion that some time or other we may get ourselves involved in some kind of conflict of that kind, there is not a man or woman in this country who voted for the Labour Government in 1945 who would not vote against it next time.
  Mr. Baxter: The interjection I made had to compete against some incoherent muttering by the leaders of the Liberal Party. I only want to say that nearly all my friends and myself believe profoundly in the necessity of the United Nations organisation, but we believe that in its early days we must not lay too much stress upon it and we must bring to it the strength that we did not bring to the League of Nations.
  Mr. Silverman: I am aware of that; it is an understandable' and defendable view. It is exactly the view that the hon. Gentleman's party took about the League of Nations—"It will do all right some other time, but do not let us lay too much stress upon it." That is how they killed the League of Nations. and that is how they will kill the United Nations if they have their way.
  Mr. Baxter: It was you who killed it.
  Mr. Silverman: Our view here is that the United Nations Charter offers us our only hope, and we will do everything that
  2562
  the United Nations Charter demands and nothing else
  Mr. Nigel Birch: On a point of Order. Is the United Nations Charter in this Bill?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): The United Nations Charter is certainly not in the Bill, but I gathered that the hon. Member was using it as an illustration.
  Mr. Silverman: I do not want to be too long about it, but I hoped I was dealing quite strictly and quite closely with the argument put forward in defence of the Third Reading by the Minister of Defence, when he was saying that he would not continue this principle of conscription if conditions changed, if the world became more settled, and when he said "settled" he was referring to our policy in international affairs. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend the Member for East Coventry, who said on the Second Reading, that those were entirely separate things—the defence policy, and policy in international affairs. It seems to me that he was talking—I apologise for saying it in his absence, and I apologise in any case for using harsh language—quite patent and utter nonsense, and indefensible nonsense, particularly coming from him. Of course, it is incompatible with our defence policy. We know—or at least, we can find out—what the obligations under the United Nations are. They provide that there shall be an investigation into the question of what each nation shall provide towards the Forces that are necessary. No inquiry or attempt has yet been made to limit our obligations in that way. When we look at each of the limiting conditions which the Minister of Defence put forward as laying down what would render unnecessary the continuation of the principle of conscription, we find something which goes on for ever. Therefore, whether he likes it or not, and whether he accepts the principle, or whether he defends it, not on the merits of the case but because of circumstances which are undefined, what we are faced with here is permanent conscription being fastened on to the life of our country.
  I come to my last point. I believe that this country, under the present Government, is called upon at this moment of history to do one all-important task, which the logic of history has placed upon

  2563
  our shoulders. We on this side of the House do not believe that the world can endure without communal control and planning of our economic affairs. We do not believe that the old economic anarchy can produce anything but poverty and war, such as it has always produced. We believe that if there is to be any hope of salvation for the world it can be only along the lines of complete planning and control of our economic resources. There are others who believe that, but we believe something else to be equally essential. We believe that we must learn to fashion and create, somehow, a new social and economic technique which will enable us to have our economic control and planning without sacrifice of our political and civil liberties. If we can make that idea work, if we can forge adequate instruments for it in our own country and make it succeed here, we believe there is no limit to the importance of that achievement and that it will expand beyond these shores. What we can do, others will try to do, and if we can do it, others can do it too.
  I say that the whole world is looking to this country under this Government with an anxiety which must be almost unbearable, to see whether we can make it work or not. We spent three days discussing a White Paper on economics which said that we might still be able to do it and that the thing which endangered our position was the want of 600,000 men. We spent another day discussing the manpower allocation and how we could make the best use of our limited and inadequate labour power. What are we proposing to do, after that? We propose to take out of industry every year 200,000 men for 12 months and to take them away for 21 days in any one year for a period of five years. The historical task which we are called upon to do is put in very great danger in order that we shall provide a few hundred thousand boys at the age of 18 to do 12 months' training. What kind of training will they get in 12 months? What are we to get in return for that sacrifice of manpower?
  I say that the Government are embarking upon this vast undertaking in a thoroughly irrelevant and irresponsible way. Conscription at this time is an irrelevance, and the Government have embarked upon it only because they have allowed themselves to be intimidated by
  2564
  some kind of force from outside. They cannot believe in it in their hearts. They cannot believe that it is right. I know that the Third Reading will be carried, that the Bill will go through in another place and will be put on the Statute Book. I can only hope that between now and 1949, there will be plenty of time for second thoughts, and that this Measure, if it becomes an Act, will be a dead letter.
  5.18 p.m.
  Brigadier Prior - Palmer: We have listened to several emotional speeches from both sides of the House. I have been 27 years in His Majesty's service and I am not going to be emotional when I speak. Therefore, I shall be unable to follow the oratorical flights of the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). I propose to get down a little nearer the earth, and I hope I shall be able to keep in Order in doing so. I believe there is still an opportunity in another place of improving the Bill, and I trust that it will not be overlooked.
  When I consider the results that the Bill will have upon the Service to which I belong I can speak of them quite genuinely, and purely from the point of view of that Service, and for the good of the country as a whole. I say it straight away—and it is the only matter upon which I have ever found myself in agreement with the Leader of the Liberal Party—that I disagree with almost every word he has said. In the Army, the numbers could be obtained on a voluntary basis if the pay and conditions were adequate. That statement can be proved by figures of the Ministry of Labour which are now in the Library. Under the conditions of today, and in the state of the world, it is due to every man, woman and child in this country that we should never repeat what we saw in the two previous wars. I could ask hon. Members to go with me and I would show them graveyards which were the result of unpreparedness, and of nothing else. We do not wish a recurrence of those mistakes.
  Mr. James Hudson: It was the result of the policy that was followed.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: That brings me to the main point I want to raise, which is the question of training these men in 12 months. I know, from practical experience of working 12 or 14 hours a day.

  2565
  seven days a week, that one cannot train a soldier for modern warfare in under 18 months. During the Debates on the Bill, there have been brought to light some further alarming aspects of the 12 months' training, and I think we ought to have a little more elucidation on some of these points. We have heard a great deal about the education of soldiers, higher education, further education, and so on, with which I am in full agreement and sympathy, but I implore hon. Members to look at this matter in a reasonable way. The object of the 12 months' training is to train the men as soldiers. They should have their education, but it must not swamp everything else, and the whole of their time should not be devoted to it. I heard it suggested that it should take four hours a day. If men are to be trained for only 12 months, if they are to get five or six hours' training a day, and if four of those hours are to be devoted to education, there might as well be no training at all.
  After the 12 months' training, the men are to have only 10 days a year for six years to keep them up-to-date with modern equipment. They will then be expected immediately, at a moment's notice, to become members of formations, divisions and corps, and go to war. That is absolutely fantastic. It cannot and will not happen, and any hon. Member who pretends that it can is deluding the public and himself. We were told by the Minister of Defence, in Committee and again today, that large numbers of Regular soldiers will now have to serve further afield, and that the garrison in Germany will comprise a number of conscripts. I asked a question concerning this in Committee, and I received no answer; I put the question again. Are these men to carry out the duties of the Army of the Rhine, to guard dumps, factories, schools and D.P. camps. If so, they will do no training. Moreover, there will be nobody there to train them, because most of the Regular soldiers will be somewhere else. On top of all this, the Secretary of State for War, replying to one of the Amendments which I moved in Committee, said that the Regular Army are to be given over for two months in the year for the training of the Territorial Army. In that case, who will train the conscripts during those two months? It means that the training of the conscripts is now to be reduced to
  2566
  10 months. The whole thing seems to make complete nonsense. We ought to have an explanation of it, and to know more about the details.
  I cannot help feeling that the Minister of Defence will not understand what I am saying, because he has not been at the job long enough. He does not understand the Army. I believe, however, that some of my words may sink in, that some of the backroom boys may get "ticking" on these matters, and it is to the House, and to those men who have responsibility in these matters, that I address my remarks. There appears to be no plan whatever. The broad outline has been envisaged, but nobody has gone into the details to see how it will affect the individual in each case. Everybody to, whom I have spoken who knows anything about the subject is completely in the dark. Nobody knows how this Bill. will work, and nobody can see how it will be made to work. I implore the Minister of Defence to go into the matter more deeply, to use his own commonsense, to ask a few pertinent questions of his Chiefs of Staff, and make them trace one aspect of it to its logical conclusion, right down to the man-in-the-street. I would like the men to enjoy their 12 months' training. I know that many hon. Members opposite will not believe me when I say that one can enjoy Service training. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne made a comparison between the pits and the Army. He used an adjective which has escaped my memory for the moment. I have never worked in a pit, but I would hardly suggest that work in a dark pit is comparable with serving in one of the finer regiments of His Majesty's Forces.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I did not draw any comparison. I was not comparing work in industry or in the Services. I was comparing ideas, and I was saying that if one does not object to the principle of compelling people to do one onerous thing because the nation requires it, one cannot resist compelling people to do another onerous thing. The only adjective was "onerous."
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I think the hon. Member will see from HANSARD tomorrow that the adjective was not "onerous," but was "disagreeable," which has an entirely different implication and meaning. If the training is to be

  2567
  telescoped, as the Minister of Defence said this afternoon, if the men are to be rushed through their training, they will get a sense of frustration, because there is nothing that a human being likes to do more than to do a thing well. These men will get the feeling, which I have seen men get when there are bad instructors and inadequate equipment, that they are not being given a square deal. They want to know how to work a wireless set and how to drive a tank at 25 miles an hour across country. There is a great deal of fun in that. These men are just like schoolboys, as we all are. They like playing with toys, and get a lot of fun cut of it. But if they are to have their leave curtailed, if they are to be driven as hard as men were driven during the war to get their training, they will hate every minute of the 12 months' service. This matter is a very serious one which affects the youth of the whole of this nation.
  I have some pretty horrifying details with regard to the work of the part-time service in the present set-up of the Territorial Army. That is a matter that needs looking into very carefully. Instructors are now being sent home. The finest instructors are coming out of the regiments, and coming home. What do they find? There is no accommodation. They cannot be put into Territorial accommodation because to do so would be against the regulations in the Army. They are staying at various clubs in London. They are away from their wives. I said to one of them the other day, "It is, at any rate, a little better than being abroad." He said, "Not at all. I could have my wife there, but I cannot have her here. I have not seen her for six months." Another formation that I know of happens to have the area not far from the House. It cannot train its armour in the the streets of London. There must be somewhere else. A place was discovered which was perfect—an empty barracks, which nobody was using. It came to the point of being decided that they were to be given only four tanks for the unit, and there were no hard standings for them. An old riding school is found, which already had tarmac on it. A letter came six weeks later saying that they could not afford the concrete and therefore could not have the barracks. That went on before the war, and it will go on now,
  2568
  unless somebody's tail is twisted, and unless the details of this Bill are gone into a little more thoroughly.
  I dislike this Bill because it is a half-hearted Measure. As it stands, I do not think it will do the Army or the country any good. It wants looking at again. I believe there is a chance for that in another place, and I hope the Government will take note of what has been said in this House and in our various discussions on the Committee and Report stages. At the moment, from the point of view of the conscript, the Bill is absolutely unworkable and impracticable.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. Beverley Baxter: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. For over two hours this Debate has gone on without one Service Minister being on the Front Bench. In 12 years in this House I have never seen anything like this. I understand there is a reason for the Minister of Defence not being here, but I ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as a protest to accept a Motion for the Adjournment of the House, until such time as a Service Minister can appear on the Front Bench.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot accept that as a point of Order, nor accept a Motion for the Adjournment of the House. The question whether a Minister should be present or not is not one for the Chair.
  Mr. W. J. Brown: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is it not an immemorial right of hon. Members of this House to move the Adjournment to draw attention to the fact that Ministers who ought to be present are not; and is it in Order to reject that Motion?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is quite correct and right for an hon. Member to move the Motion, but it is equally correct and right that the Chair should exercise its discretion.
  Mr. Brown: But is there any precedent for not accepting that Motion when not one of four Ministers who could be here is present?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member must not argue or question a decision of the Chair. I cannot accept the Motion.
  Mr. Baxter: Further to my point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Since you

  2569
  will not accept my Motion for the Adjournment of the House, is there any other method by which we can secure the presence of a Minister? Can you advise us on any other method to secure the attendance of a Minister of one Service on the Front Bench?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. William Whiteley): The Ministers will be here as soon as they are free from meetings in which they are engaged at present. There are two Ministers here who took a big part in this Bill. The Minister of Defence is at a very important meeting; the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for Air are also in important meeting; at the moment. They have been told, and they will be here as soon as it is possible for them to do so.
  Mr. BaxterWould it not be possible—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We cannot have a Debate upon it.
  Mr. Baxter: May I ask a question?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member wishes to put another point of Order?
  Mr. Baxter: Further to my point of Order. Since the Patronage Secretary has intervened, and made what is, no doubt, a very plausible explanation, can the House adjourn until the Ministers are available?
  Mr. Whiteley: My statement was correct, not plausible.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are now entering upon a Debate on a subject which is not debatable.
  5.35 P.m.
  Mr. Cocks: The hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) seems to dislike this Bill even more than I do, but, if he will forgive me for saying so, his speech, although very interesting, seemed to be rather more appropriate to the Committee stage of the Bill than to the Third Reading. I only say that in order to ask him to forgive me if I do not follow him on his points, which I would call points of Committee detail. I can assure him that I am always interested when hon. Members speak on a subject they know. When a Conscription Bill was first introduced into this House in May. 1939, the leaders of the Labour Party at
  2570
  that time complained that the Government of that day had given no facts or figures to show the need for that Measure, or to show that adequate forces would not be provided by the voluntary system. As a result of that complaint, 25 Members of the present Government voted against the Conscription Bill including the Prime Minister, the Leader of the House and, most important of all. the Chief Whip: Even after war was declared and the Labour Party accepted the Conscription Bill, two Members of the present Government voted against that Bill and the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. A. Greenwood) said:
  "I am still an anti-conscriptionist at heart and I do not suppose that my attitude will ever change."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd September, 1939; Vol. 351, c. 224.]
  But times do change. The clear mind becomes dim. Care corrupts the soul—
  "Change and decay in all around I see."
  and I have to turn for consolation to the honest face of my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and say to him:
  "Oh, thou who changest not, abide with me"
  It seems to me, however, rather ironic that people who opposed conscription when war threatened civilisation are now supporting it when all our enemies are scattered and no embattled host threatens the Channel ports or the fair fields of France—[Interruption.] I join in that applause. Still, a small band of people, holding fast to well-tried principles, are still raising the same question. Where are the figures; what are the facts in support of this change? What is the reason for this great departure from old-established British traditions in order to bring in this pale, watery imitation of the principles of Prussia which have engulfed the whole world in ruin?
  I listened carefully to the Minister of Defence in the various essays he has read to this House. I have a great affection for him, but it seems to me that his long association with the Silent Service has brought him to the conclusion that he must never, in any circumstances, give any information whatever in any of his speeches. In fact, he sometimes reminds me of an old mid-Victorian admiral of about 1850 who insisted on firing on every ship which flew either the French or the Spanish flag on the ground that they fought against us at Trafalgar. Or of Lord Raglan, our

  2571
  commander-in-chief in the Crimea, an old Waterloo veteran, who always called the enemy "the French" which was somewhat embarrassing to our gallant French allies.
  He and his military advisers seem to be thinking of the war before the last, when huge citizen armies were sent to their death on the banks of the Somme, or in the marshes of Passchendael. That is the view taken by the War Office to day, and by many distinguished people there. Some of their leaders are like someone who must be kept out of political discussion, they are on the side of the big battalions. They are never content with one man when ten will do. They want four volunteers for every potato. That is the reason why this Bill has been brought in.
  All through history, the military mind has looked backwards. Generals prefer the kind of wars they fought themselves in their youth. Just after the first world war I remember old gentlemen who used to write letters to "The Times" extolling the virtues of cavalry, of l' arme blanche, the bright unsullied sword. The Polish Government took that view in the last war and in 24 hours they were defeated. It seems to me that this Bill, in these days of radar and rockets and atomic warfare, instead of producing the highly-trained and equipped scientific forces which the nation requires will simply produce an army of half-trained con scripts to fight the kind of war which will never occur. Of course, the usual spokesmen which the Government have put up have not put any case at all. But the Government are not relying for their defence upon the pieces of obsolescent artillery arrayed on the Treasury Bench, Ministers from the War Office and the Air Force and the Admiralty who sit by the side of the Minister of Defence and volley and blunder all the time. New weapons have been thrust into their hands by some of our bright intellectuals from the Forces and elsewhere who, I trust, will never deserve Kipling's description of
  "brittle intellectuals who break beneath the strain."
  They are rushing to the Government's defence, upholding the palsied arms of their purblind leaders in order to win a great victory for Jehovah with two badges on his biretta.
  2572
  I am opposing this Bill because it is unwanted and unnecessary. I have always held the view that if we democratised the Forces, we would get all the volunteers the country needs. In the Army they are against democratisation because there are too many generals of the type represented by the general who walked into the War Office a short time ago and thought that because a certain Member of Parliament was not dressed in corduroys he must be a Conservative Member, and said to him "Do you think that any Member of this Government is able to read or write?" If I had been there I should have replied that I was not quite sure about our old Etonians but I was sure that any who had had a decent elementary education were quite literate. These are the people who want to maintain the services with the old officer class in control because very few conscripts after only 12 months' training will ever rise to commissioned rank or beyond the potato-peeling stage. This Bill is a surrender to the officer class and to obsolete ideas. In two years' time, it is going to create defence forces which will be out-moded, practically useless and class-controlled, and for those reasons I have no hesitation in voting against the Third Reading.
  5.45 P.m.
  Colonel Ponsonby: It is hard to follow the light-hearted ribaldry, redolent of midnight oil, of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), who has brought laughter to the ranks of the conscientious objectors.
  Mr. S. Silverman: The whole of this Bill is the result of burning midnight oil.
  Colonel Ponsonby: I want to say a word or two as one of the old guard who is looking into the future. I am surrounded on this side of the House by a number of fighting brigadiers and colonels—[An HON. MEMBER: "Where are they?"]—They may have gone out temporarily. I wish to say a few words as an honorary colonel of cadets, and honorary colonel of a Territorial regiment. The cadets, as hon. Members are aware, are the best training material that we have. Any hon. Member who has had to do with cadets during the war must have been proud of the way they worked, the discipline they displayed, and the enthusiasm they showed.
  I am glad to see that the Secretary of State for War has come back at last. He

  2573
  did not accept a new Clause proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) but I would like to remind hon. Members that the object of that Clause was that cadets should get some recognition when they have done their pre-service training, and are called up. I was very sorry that the only concession that the right hon. Gentleman made was that they should be let off two weeks of their primary training. Any hon. Member who has seen these boys, and known how well they work, will realise that it is very hard on them that they should only have this very small concession. I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will consider remitting at least four weeks of their primary training, so that they can get on with their job, which they must know better than those who have received no training at all. Matters which were raised on the new Clause included questions of uniform and instructors. I hope these questions will be looked into. Nothing was said about grants to cadets. I know that many of the units have been supported by voluntary contributions, especially by contributions from officers. If this Force is going to be recognised, and is to be a really useful adjunct to the Territorial Army, it is absolutely essential that the grant should be increased, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will say something about that if he replies to the Debate. The cadets are a corps d' élite, and I hope everything will be done to assist them.
  I wish now to say a word about the Territorial Army. I am honorary colonel of a unit which has not only served all over the world during the war, but has also shown its keenness in the future of the Territorial Army by already—before recruitment started—supplying 12 officers. including the colonel and second in command, to start the new unit. In order to encourage other counties. I would say that that is what was the 97th Kent Yeomanry Regiment, R.A. What is interesting is that they are doing this, notwithstanding the fact that instead of being field artillery they are to be a light anti-aircraft regiment in the future. I mention this because I want to encourage all other Territorial units to try to emulate my Kent unit.
  But now, what is to happen? Let us, for a moment, look into the future. It was admitted, on Second Reading, that there will be two years of probation, two years while the Territorial Army was wait-
  2574
  ing to receive the National Service men when they come along. That will be a difficult task. The regiments will be cadres, which will not have a great deal to do, but I am perfectly certain that the spirit of good fellowship and friendship which has actuated them during the war, which exists in the Territorials, will enable them to keep going and to receive, I would almost say with open arms, the National Service men of their counties when they have done their year's training. What is the training to be? I have listened with dismay, but with perfect understanding, to what fighting brigadiers and colonels have said in this Debate about the 12 months' period. I do not wish to go back over all that discussion; I do not want to pile Pelion upon Ossa, or to heap coals of fire any more on the head of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence, and I will say nothing about commitments.
  It will be a tremendous task for the Army, in one year, to train men sufficiently to take their place in the Territorial Army units. So far as I can see, it depends entirely on the Regular Army having the best possible officers and a perfect organisation. Up to the moment, we have heard nothing about how this 12 months' training is to be organised, or about how the Territorial Army is to function in the future. If this scheme is to work at all, I would impress upon the Secretary of State that all his plans must be carefully worked out so that, after the year's training, the young men are physically fit, are keen, enthusiastic and disciplined. If he can bring that to pass through his organisation, and if it is possible for those officers of the Regular Army to infuse into those young men the spirit and traditions of the Army, which have enabled it to win the last two wars, then there is hope for this country in the future.
  5.54 P.m.
  Colonel Wigg: I hope the hon. and gallant Member for Sevenoaks Colonel Ponsonby) will forgive me if I do not follow him. I wish to say a word or two in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks) who, with his usual charm and humorous irrelevance, has entertained the House for quite a while. I enjoy his speeches much more when he is talking upon a subject about which he knows

  2575
  more than he does about the Army. It is perfectly clear that whilst what he says about the Army may perhaps have been true at Waterloo or the Crimea, it is certainly not true of the modern Army. On the other hand, it is equally true that there is still a great deal to criticise about this Bill. Let me be frank. There is a great deal to criticise about the way in which this Bill has been handled in this House, although one must bear in mind that that is not necessarily a criticism of the Ministers responsible.
  This very important Measure, which affects every household in this country, has been subjected to rather more scrutiny than is given to most Bills which come before us. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe was not only irrelevant but just a little illogical when he charged the Service Ministers and the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence with being wedded to a policy of no change, and then took to himself and to those who think like him a considerable measure of virtue in saying that what they said in 1939 is equally valid today, and that they can stand pat on that. The Minister of Defence and the other Service Ministers, indeed the Government as a whole, are faced with a completely changed situation. The Bill was not in-introduced, as was the Bill in 1939, as an emergency Measure, with a view to giving very short training for manning the anti-aircraft defences of London. The Government are faced with the problem that the Army is running down, and the country has to get sufficient Armed Forces to meet the current commitments. The only possible way to do that is by imposing a measure of conscription. The alternative is to give such conditions of pay and service to volunteers as would lead to the establishment of a military aristocracy. That would be the negation of democracy, and I am sure it is something which would repel my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, and his friends.
  A word must be said in defence of the Minister of Defence, and in doing so I also want to direct the attention of the House to what is a major criticism of the way in which this Bill has been handled. The Ministry of Defence is a very recent creation. Moreover, the Minister relies
  2576
  on the other three Service Departments for his information, and it is perfectly clear that, if there is a responsibility for lack of information to the House, and for a failure to adumbrate the scheme on which the Bill is based, it comes from the failure of the War Office to appreciate the rightful demands which the House would make before passing such an important Measure. That is not intended as a criticism of the Secretary of State for War. After all, he has held office for a very short time, and one has to recognise, in order to make comparisons, the War Office now, and as it was before the war. It must have cost the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) a great deal of anxious concern several times during the war.
  The House should remember that at one stage of the war the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woodford took the unprecedented step of making the Permanent Secretary into a figure on the Front Bench in order to grapple with this extremely cumbersome administrative machine. If this scheme is to work, if we are to get the kind of Army we want, if we are to make use of our limited manpower resources, there must be major schemes of reconstruction inside the War Office. It is quite unfair to exploit the difficulties which which the Minister of Defence had to grapple. It diverts attention from what is in fact the major problem, the reconstruction of the War Office. A major difficulty in the shaping of this Bill arises—I am speaking of the days before this Government came into power—because the War Office were using conscription as an easy way out. I make that concession to those who do not agree with me in my support of the major principle contained in the Bill.
  The result is that the War Office failed to appreciate the public relations point, that those who oppose and those who support conscription may require to be satisfied that the conscription is necessary. The failure to appreciate the need for information has persisted all through our deliberations, and has led many hon. Members to be less than fair to the right hon. Gentleman responsible for piloting the Bill through the House.
  I am not at all happy about the Bill in its present state. I still do not understand what the scheme of training will be and I am extremely unhappy about the

  2577
  state of the Army and its training capacity. Indeed, I would say that the Army today is anything but an effective force. I do not think that it would be overstraining the facts to say that it is little more at present than a number of men on the ration strength. It is very doubtful whether it can effectively train the young men it will receive, as the result of passing this Bill. One realises that at the end of a great war there must be a period during which re-organisation is being thought out, before it can be put into effect. There has been a longer gap at the end of this war than there was at the end of the 1914–18 war. I hope that the Secretary of State for War will not allow this Bill to be used as an excuse for the failure to introduce a great number of overdue reforms, particularly in the War Office. I think the Bill is a great deal better now than it was when first introduced and to those who still oppose it, I say they have not faced up to the major fact, that if we do not have conscription, then it means that we shall have no Army at all.
  6.2 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Having listened to all the speeches this afternoon, I must say that from the intellectual point of view the Opposition have made a very much better case than the case made for the Government. In fact, with great respect of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg), I think perhaps it is better if those who are in favour of this Bill keep quiet. For that reason, I intend only to ask a few questions instead of going over the ground again. I would also remind my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Dudley that he said that this Bill had received unusual scrutiny. I have only been in this House for 12 years but I can say that this Bill had the ordinary, normal scrutiny of an alert House of Commons. There is nothing abnormal about it at all.
  Colonel Wigg: It was abnormal with the present Opposition.
  Mr. Lindsay: It must be said in defence of the Government and the various Ministers—and I think this is the root of the matter—that it is about the most difficult thing in the world to introduce into this House, which is almost universally against conscription, a Bill, with a new
  2578
  Minister of Defence, when the whole tradition of this country is against the principle embodied in the Measure. Therefore, it has been extremely difficult for the Government spokesmen to put up, not only a case, but a united case. I have great respect for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour who sat here solemnly during our deliberations. From the industrial point of view, at any rate, he has tried to explain these very difficult questions.
  If the Bill is going to work it will need the most careful and human approach. Between now and 1949, when many things may happen, there must be very great changes in the three Services. As I understand it, a young man in 1949, will be able to go to the university at varying ages between 17½ and 19½. He will go into the Service either at 17½, at 18 or 22. In other words, we shall have people entering the universities and the Services at very different ages. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), in an enlivening speech, reminded us that probably modern wars would have more to do with radar and rockets. I beg the Minister of Labour to remember that already we are losing scientists, who are going into the Services after three or four years at the universities. We cannot afford to do it. The manpower needs of the country depend not only on the 600,000 men about whom the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) spoke. Heaven knows, they are important enough. Those needs also depend on professional and skilled men coming from the technical colleges and universities.
  A very careful balance will have to be kept between the ages and needs of the Service and of industry if we are to achieve the right result. I rose to ask my right hon. Friend to keep this matter under very careful review during the next 18 months. The hon. Member for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) spoke yesterday about 90 per cent. from the Forces and 10 per cent. from the schools going to the universities. That is not so everywhere. The universities in the North, those at Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool, have 20 and 30 per cent. according to faculties going into the universities straight from school now, and only 80or 70per cent. from the Services. Before long there will be

  2579
  60and possibly 50per cent. It is extremely important that we should not think that the conditions of 1947 and 1948 are going to be reproduced when this Bill comes into force.
  I listened to the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) and I have never heard a more damning indictment of a Bill. He practically condemned the training which it would be possible to do in 12 months. He said that it was impossible to give adequate training. I appreciate his angle of approach. From his point of view there was very little enthusiasm. In fact, only at the end of his speech did he say that there is something to be said for 12 months' training. Are we going into this year of National Service regarding it merely as a regrettable necessity? Are we going to make a revolution in the life of the youth of this country and end up this Debate on the Third Reading by saying either that this is a very regrettable thing or that there is not going to be enough training? Every single speech from both sides of the House has been on that note.
  Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I feel it would be far more hypocritical to get up and say that I thought 12 months was adequate, if I did not think so, but I think that it is better than nothing.
  Mr. Lindsay: I should be the last to accuse the hon. and gallant Member of anything but a sincere desire to face the facts of the situation. That is what I am trying to reproduce from his speech. If this Bill leaves the House tonight with hon. Members in the mood and temper which so far has been shown, I do not think that we are asking the youth of this country in 18 months' time to face their commitments with any sense of unity. During the war it was a different thing. If there are no essential unities, but merely a two-party approach, as we have seen from this Debate, I think it will be a very poor advertisement for one of the most gigantic reforms ever introduced in this country.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Rankin: It has been my pleasure on many occasions to speed on a Measure to another place, after Third Reading, with the hope that it would have a smooth and speedy
  2580
  passage. I am sorry that on this occasion I can offer no such wish. I must join my voice to the general chorus of condemnation of the Bill which has come from this side of the House. It is rather remarkable that only one speech from this side has been delivered so far in support of this Bill on Third Reading, and I would say with all respect to the hon. Member who delivered it, that if this Measure can sustain the defence which he offered, it will certainly survive any-thing. I do not wish to repeat the general argument which has been launched against the Bill, but I suggest that in this Measure the Government is betraying fundamentally the pledge which it gave to the electorate in 1945. As a result of the war, human ways of living have divided themselves sharply into two big compartments. One way of living has been termed with fair accuracy the American way of life; the other, the totalitarian way of life.
  I think it was the hope of large masses of people in the world that this Government of ours, pledged as it was to a planned economy and believing, as most of its adherents do still, in a free society, would be able as a result of the power which it had been given to develop within a planned economy a free society. That was the problem which our Government was returned to solve. In introducing conscription, which involves not merely the military aspect of life but, as has been pointed out, our industrial way of life, it is evading the problem which it was set to solve; because conscription runs the danger of creating a potential which may result in a Fascist way of living. In compelling, as it will compel, large sections of our youth to enter into the Army, it is going to inculcate into them the Fascist way of life because the Army is basically Fascist in its structure. It embodies the principle of responsibility from the top downwards and obedience from the bottom upwards, and that is a dynamic principle in the Fascist system. No individual I have ever met believes that organisation within the Army is not as the poet described it:
  "Their's not to reason why,
  Their's but to do and die."
  That is the problem which we are evading and in evading it or in failing to approach its solution, we are betraying the purpose for which we were returned.
  Mr. Baxter: May I ask the hon. Gentleman a question?
  Mr. RankinI am sorry but I cannot give way.
  Mr. Baxter rose—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman who is speaking does not give way, another hon. Gentleman may not rise and speak.
  Mr. Rankin: I have not the slightest desire to refuse to give way for the sake of the question, but I know that there are many hon. Members of both sides who are desirous of taking part in the Debate and I do not want to consume any more time than necessary. However, in view of the fact that I am being pressed, I will give way.
  Mr. Baxter: Thank you very much. The hon. Gentleman is very gracious. I merely wanted to say—not so much for contradiction—in reference to the hon. Member's remarks about the Nazi tendency in Army life, is it not a fact that all of us in our contact with normal life find that men who come out of the Army are more civil, more broadminded and set an altogether better example than any of the men who have not served?
  Mr. Rankin: That is a great tribute to the democratic upbringing those men had before they went into the Army, and the hon. Gentleman, in seeking to disrupt and destroy that democratic way of living, is creating the very danger he wants to evade.
  I wish now to look at two broad aspects of the Bill. It can be said by and large that the Bill takes charge of two aspects of life so far as our young people are concerned. First of all, it will take charge of the bodies of a large group of people, those who are going into the Army. I hope the Government will see that when they come under the scope of the Bill these young lads will be retained within this country during their training period. In view of their immaturity they should not be sent abroad in order to undergo the necessary training. I hope also that the difficulties of our shipping position in this respect will weigh with the Government. Further, I hope that the Minister of Labour will recollect the pledge he gave on Second Reading that the primary purpose of this Bill was as a measure of defence, and as that is its primary purpose
  2582
  these lads should be retained in this country, for they cannot defend the country if they are somewhere else.
  The second aspect is that of those w no will not go into the Army, those who on conscience grounds will refuse their services. I hope that the tribunals as they function under this Measure will be the guardians of conscience and not the agents of the Government. I admit that conscience is a difficult thing to define and difficult to determine, but its existence is real. The history of the Christian Church proves that; the growth of the Labour Party proves that also; and the Government Front Bench demonstrates the fact, because time and again it is so overflowing with conscience that there is little room for anything else on those seats.
  These are three reasons why I hope that those in charge of this Bill will see that when it becomes an Act the guardianship of conscience will be a real and living thing. I say that because as things are at the moment that is not so. Men are still being prosecuted, and as my right hon. Friend knows, in spite of what we were assured at earlier stages of the Bill, we have men in prison today for conscience sake. We have two in Barlinnie Prison at this moment in Glasgow doing 12 months simply because they refuse to conform to the conscription Act at present in existence. That is wastage. I hope that that sort of thing is not to be continued under this present Measure, and that the tribunals will become places where the atmosphere will be changed, and where the hard legalistic outlook of some of their present members will be softened. There are members of tribunals today adjudicating on conscience, who, as a result of their long service in that capacity, are now due for complete exemption from any further service under this Bill. Their attitude to objectors in some cases is fundamentally wrong to begin with, and I hope that these things will be kept in mind when dealing with the future constitution of tribunals. But, whether or not these things are kept in mind, I want to say in conclusion, as I said at the beginning, that I shall go into the Division Lobby today to vote against the Third Reading of this Bill.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: The hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. Rankin) made it quite clear in the course

  2583
  of his speech that under no circumstances whatsoever was he prepared to pay any tribute at all to the Army I must say that I was surprised to hear him condemn the Army as a Fascist way of life. I should not have thought that he would have made that sort of observation with regard to an Army which contains so many from all walks of life who have been engaged so long in defeating Fascism.
  Mr. Rankin: I do not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman has fairly interpreted what I said, I made no charge against the Army, but I said that its structure, based as it was on responsibility from the top downwards and obedience from the bottom upwards, was essentially a Fascist structure.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: It is true that the hon. Gentleman talked about the structure, but he also said other things which I think he will find when he looks at HANSARD tomorrow. I made a note of them at the time. I am glad to hear that what he said did not correctly express the thoughts in his mind, because he clearly represented that the going of these young men into the Army would mean that they would be trained in the Fascist way of life, and that they would be inculcated with Fascist doctrines. I consider that that is a monstrous reflection upon the Army.
  However, I agreed with one thing which the hon. Gentleman said, and that was his observations on the speech made by the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg) in defence of the Minister of Defence. If I was a Minister in His Majesty's present Government, which God forbid, I should indeed be nervous of my position if I suddenly found that the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley was leaping to my defence with the vigour he displayed this afternoon. Of course, I sympathise with the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley; it was only right that some hon. Member of the party opposite should seek to answer the amusing, but wholly mischievous, speech of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), who said that generals looked back to the wars they had fought in when they were young, and whose observations with regard to the officer class made me think that he was more familiar with Roman history than with that of modern times.
  Perhaps in a few hours' time—I do not know how long—we shall be drawing to
  2584
  the end of the long discussions which we have had upon this Bill. I hope it will not be thought out of place, and that I shall not be out of Order, if I begin by paying a tribute to the Minister of Labour and to his Parliamentary Secretary for their skill and courtesy, and for the reasonableness they have shown throughout the Debates. I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary—no doubt for good reason—is not present with us at this moment. I am also sorry that, during so much of the Debate, the Secretary of State for War and representatives of other Service Ministries have been absent, again, probably, for all I know, for good reason. But I wish that some representative of the War Office had been present to hear the extremely well reasoned and interesting speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) a speech which, in my view, requires an answer, an answer that can only be given by the Secretary of State for War, or another Minister in the War Office.
  Without qualifying for a seat on the Coal Board, I think, also, that I can. perhaps, pay one other tribute, and can congratulate the Government upon one thing. Contrary to their recent practice, they have not subjected this Measure to the Guillotine. I suppose that that, in some part, may be due to the fact that, although throughout the discussions on this Bill we have seen dissension among the party opposite, it still comes within the definition of "organised labour." But the result of our discussions has been, of course, that this House, though sitting long hours due to the Government, has given proper consideration to this Measure, to all its Clauses and their implications, and to the manner in which they will affect those coming within its scope. In that respect, this is a singuar Bill. It is the only Measure so far taken this Session which has been given proper time for discussion, and that fact has lightened my task in speaking from this side of the. House.
  In moving the Third Reading, the right hon. Gentleman said, very properly, that a great many changes of an administrative character had been made in the course of our discussions which had improved the Bill. I think I am right in saying that nearly all those changes were made as a result of suggestions from this side of the House. I cannot compliment the right

  2585
  hon. Gentleman upon the major change introduced by himself. However, I can say with confidence and conviction that this is a far better Bill than it was on Second Reading, save in that one most important respect. No one, no matter on what Bench he may sit, or in what part of the House, can enjoy the placing of this burden on the youth of our country, and least of all, perhaps, those of us with sons whose lives are bound to be affected by it. We all wish that this Measure were not necessary. I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies), who prides himself upon his consistency, should today have shown himself consistent in his misrepresentations and should again have accused the Conservative Party of being in favour of, and always advocating as part of their policy, conscription. I thought that he had been told on the Second Reading that it had never during the last 40 years formed part of our policy, and that he would have accepted that assurance.
  Mr. C. Davies: I would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman that, the right hon. and gallant Member for North Newcastle-upon-Tyne (Sir C. Headlam) assured the House today that that was so.
  Mr. Manningham-Buller: I heard the speech made by my right hon. and gallant Friend, who was only expressing his own view. I was saying, and I repeat it, that it has never in the last 40 years been part of the Conservative policy to advocate conscription. I am sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should have persisted in that unnecessary representation, although, I agree, he was again consistent with what he said on Second Reading. As I say, we all wish that this Measure were not necessary. But those of us who regard it as necessary would be failing not only in our duty to the country, to our constituents, and to those who follow after us if, recognising the necessity, we fail to shoulder the responsibility. I believe, in spite of the voices we have heard in the House this afternoon, that there are few in the House or in the country who doubt the necessity for a Measure of this sort at this time. Those who accept the principle of National Service now, then have to go on to consider the next question, the period of service. It is in this most important respect that this Bill has not been improved
  2586
  in Committee, and, in view of the arguments so ably and convincingly presented by the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Defence on the Second Reading, we feel no confidence that 12 months is now the correct period.
  I would like to remind the House of what was said by the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Defence on the Second Reading. The Minister of Labour said:
  "Whilst the period of 18 months may rot be required for complete training it is required for service."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March. 1947; Vol. 435. c. 1679.]
  On the next day, the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence, in a speech delivered with the utmost appearance of conviction, said:
  "National Service men will be needed to help out the Regulars in meeting the overseas commitments unless the international situation improves beyond what we should be justified in assuming as a safe basis for planning."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st April, 1947: Vol. 435, c. 1964.]
  Forty-eight hours later, he announced the Government's somersault. I do not want to go into the arguments that the right hon. Gentleman brought up during the Committee stage to justify that astonishing change of attitude. Today he has said that he consulted some leaders of industry. Was that during the 48 hours? Were the leaders of industry confined to leaders of the Co-operative societies? Was there a sudden change of view among leaders of industry?. I dare say that if he had put it to them, they would have said that so far as industry was concerned, conscription for six months would have been more beneficial than whole-time service for 12 months. Then he fell back upon leading articles in the "Daily Express." I am sure it is very interesting to know that the right hon. Gentleman attaches such weight to those articles, and hope he may gain considerable benefit from reading them in future. But I would ask him, in view of what has taken place, whether he did not perhaps read during those 48 hours the draft of that most interesting document, "Cards on the Table" which will, or may, have so much to do with our international commitments in the future.
  One thing is clear, and that is, as I interpret his statements—and they are not so easy to interpret—that National Service men, though needed to help in meeting our overseas commitments, will

  2587
  not now be available for that purpose. The hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman), maybe partly in view of what the right hon. Gentleman himself has said, assumed this change from i8 months to 12 months to be an indication of a reduction in our overseas commitments. The right hon. Gentleman told us:
  "We are not throwing overboard any overseas commitments. There is certainly no change in foreign policy. I said that the military changes which will be brought about by the change in period will certainly not be operative until 1950."
  Then he went on to add these significant words:
  And … we hope in that period that there will be an improvement in the position with regard to the overseas commitments we have had to undertake. We have taken a risk on that."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th May, 1947; Vol. 437. c. 550.]
  There is one thing that no Minister of Defence and no Government of this country are entitled to do, in my opinion, and that is to take an unnecessary and unwarranted risk with regard to the safety and security of this country and its vital interests. However optimistic the right hon. Gentleman may be, he has no right to run that risk. He has shown his optimism as to the progress of this Bill to be misplaced. I fear that his optimism as to what may be done in 12 months' training may also be equally misplaced. We have experienced the result of the Minister of Fuel and Power taking a risk with regard to our coal supplies, but the present position of that Minister will appear enviable compared with that of the Minister of Defence if the risk that he is taking does not come off. With that large majority that supported him upon the Second Reading, the right hon. Gentleman had no right to take that risk.
  Supposing there is no improvement in our overseas commitments, what then? Can we not be told, even now, what those commitments are, and what numbers they are likely to absorb? We have really no information on that point in the course of this Debate. Supposing our present overseas commitments, as far as they can be seen, are not reduced, what then? How is the gap to be filled? It is quite obvious from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that this Bill will not fill it. The recent speeches of the Secretary of
  2588
  State for Foreign Affairs do not give us any confidence that the risk will come off. I would remind the House that he said that the issues which would have to be considered at the London Conference in November would have to come to a much more successful conclusion, and, it they did not, no one could prophecy the course the world would take. He described that conference as the most vital in the world's history, and, in ignorance of its outcome, in my view the Government cannot justify taking the risks involved in reducing the 18 months maximum ceiling to a ceiling of 12 months for whole-time service. I feel the right hon. Gentleman, in relation to his own Bill, has been guilty of some degree of sabotage. In consequence of that guilt, I am inclined to doubt whether this Bill will entirely fulfil its object. The aim of the Government is that we should obtain a regular force of minimum numbers and maximum efficiency, backed up by an efficient, well trained reserve and auxiliary forces. Will this Bill secure that?
  Let me consider the position of the Regular Forces and, in particular, the Army. We are told that the more distant stations will now have to be manned by Regular troops. Those in this country and in Germany will obviously have to be engaged largely in training conscripts and, in addition, according to the Secretary of State for War, for two months in every year, the Regular Army is to drop its own particular training and turn all its efforts on to the territorial Army. We may achieve the minimum numbers, but, in view of what the Regular Army has got to do, I am inclined to doubt whether it will be possible for those minimum numbers to achieve the maximum efficiency. On that matter, too, this House is entitled to have much fuller information from the Secretary of State for War.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing has raised the question whether one will have even efficient, well-trained reserve and auxiliary forces. If National Service men are going to do two camps of three weeks each, say, in the third and in the sixth years, it means that all they will have to do in the way of part-time training in the other four years will be two week-ends and two hours. Will that be enough? We ought to have information upon that. The right hon. Gentleman, though he has reduced the

  2589
  whole-time service, and though he has retained the same period of service—that is to say, seven years—has made no increase in the amount of part-time training to correspond to the decrease in the whole-time service. He has given no satisfactory explanation of that omission today at all.
  One other point upon which I should like to touch in passing is the power in the Clause dealing with the transfer of blocks of men from one auxiliary force to another, upon which we had some discussion in Committee, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will remember. He said he would consider it before the Report stage. As yet, we have had nothing from him as a result of that consideration. I hope that before this Debate concludes we shall receive an assurance that that Clause will be limited in accordance with the expressions of intention that he himself gave.
  I do not want to say anything more about the Services aspect of this Measure. So far as the industrial and educational side of it is concerned, we have not had much discussion on the provisions for the safeguarding of employment. I must say, I think those provisions, for which the Ministry of Labour are largely responsible, are good. I have only this suggestion to put forward. It will avoid a lot of unnecessary grievance, friction and, it may be, litigation if the right hon. Gentleman could take all possible steps to ensure that young men being called up and their employers are informed, at the time of call-up, of their rights and liabilities with regard to reinstatement. I suggest that a booklet, or something of that sort, written in simple English—because this Bill is not easy to understand—might serve a useful purpose. Again, with regard to deferment or postponement, we do not want to see any avoidance of the obligation to perform National Service. At the same time, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will adopt, administratively, the policy that where a boy and his parents consider it to be in the interests of that youth that there should be some postponement of his service, wherever possible that will be granted.
  I have spoken perhaps too often, and perhaps too long on this Measure. I should like to conclude by saying that we have, throughout, welcomed it in principle because we recognise the necessity
  2590
  at this time for a Measure of this sort. We hope it will work well, and we shall look forward to the day when this Measure will no longer be required. During its passage we have done our utmost to improve it and to polish it, and the opposition to its principles has not come from us. We have supported it in the past, and we shall do so again tonight. We should do so with much greater confidence if the hon. Gentleman had, in fact, retained just that little extra elbow room which he would have kept for himself had he kept the 18 months' minimum ceiling and not listened to the siren voices of certain Socialists, and had we not had as a Minister of Defence one who has now changed his master's voice, and has apparently adopted, as shown by his conduct, the motto and precept of that well known wartime song, "Run. rabbit, run."
  6.44 P.m.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: The House will perhaps forgive me for taking part once again in a Debate on this very important Measure imposing military conscription. The group to which I belong did not table an Amendment to the Bill on the Report stage because, to be frank, of the shabby treatment meted out by the Government to us at that stage. Perhaps the Minister himself will go through the previous proceedings of this Bill and see how much more he has been prepared to give away to the Tory Party, his political opponents, than to his hon. Friends on this side of the House. I am sorry to repeat a personal note, but this is a very sad day for those of us who have been Socialists all our lives. The Government are this day digging the grave to bury all the principles I personally have advocated on behalf of the Labour movement for the last half century, and I regret that more than I can tell. A British statesman once said, what was so true, and very appropriate to this occasion: "There must be something radically wrong in normal times when the Government agree with the Opposition." That is what I feel about this Bill today.
  The Tory Party, of course, are delighted with the Measure. The amazing thing to me in this Debate—it is something quite new—is that practically all those who have spoken have declared they they do not like the Bill. Now, will anybody get up and tell me, if hon. Members on all sides of the House do not

  2591
  like it, who it is that wants it? We have yet to find that out. My colleagues on the Front Bench thought they were very smart to get this Bill passed into law before the Margate Labour Party Conference. They may feel satisfied that they can carry the Margate Conference with them; but that is not by any means the highest tribunal in the land, as I know only too well. I have seen many changes in this House, and when I hear hon. Members talking about what will happen next year or the year after, I have no illusions about what can happen here. In my imagination, I can see hon. Members at present sitting on this side of the House, in years to come, from the other side of the House, protesting maybe against a Tory Government using this piece of legislation to smash strikes and break the trade union movement.
  We always hear talk from the Government Front Bench about "the aggressor." They say: "We must prepare against the aggressor." I have travelled a little in my lifetime, and as one who always speaks well of his country, who thinks well of his country, and who believes that we have built institutions which ought to be a pattern for other nations, I have been sorry to find that we are not loved very much in foreign parts for what we have done there. Therefore, we must not talk about preparing against the aggressor, because in the long history of mankind—and let us be frank about it—we have been the greatest aggressors. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Of course we have; we conquered one-fifth of the globe by aggression and taught our children that all that was just discovery; what we term aggression by other nations has been called pioneering by our forefathers. Therefore, I say to hon. Members on all sides of the House—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member must confine himself to the Bill.
  Mr. Davies: I was just coming back to the Minister of Defence, when he said that we must prepare against the aggressor. I have been trying to discover who the aggressor is of whom we are afraid now. Who is the enemy at the gate? Hon. Members opposite say: "We must be prepared." Strangely enough, the man who created the mightiest military machine for preparedness in the world
  2592
  was Hitler, and he was defeated, in spite of all his preparedness. In my view, we may conscript our lads, but Britain will never gain its proper place in this world except by doing what some of us have argued about on many occasions; namely, using the moral qualities of this nation and the genius of this people to govern without, for instance, shooting each other in Parliament. Those are the qualities we ought to enunciate to the world, and not building big armies, navies, and increasing armaments all round.
  I would like to say a word about the administration of the Measure. Let me tell my miner friends—and I have been a collier myself—that though they may be satisfied with the word of the Minister about the exemption of underground miners there is nothing in the Bill to exempt or defer them—nothing at all. When the manpower boards come to consider deferring those engaged in mining, agriculture, and textiles, whom are they going to defer? Let us take, for instance, the case of the Lancashire textile industry. If the manpower boards in Lancashire do their duty under this Bill the fighting services will not get a man for the Forces, because they are all needed in that industry. I was very intrigued with some of the speeches made on the other side about deferring students. Hon. Members among the Tories are very concerned about students, and we are naturally concerned about apprentices. If all these deferments are going to be granted as promised by the Minister of Defence, I wonder what the size of the Army will be. All this talk about 200,000 and 500,000 volunteers in that case will prove illusory. I know nothing about Army affairs or strategy, either. But I know one thing—that that bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima makes nonsense of all the talk about strategy and 12 months' training for a soldier. Indeed the next war may well be all over in 48 hours. What is the use of talking about armies in that case? I am told that there are 14 million men under arms in the world now.
  I understood in my simplicity that my Labour colleagues with whom I have worked, with whom I have spoken from the same platforms and pulpits in the cause of peace—I expected that they, at any rate, would make a gesture of peace to the world, instead of shaking the clenched fist, which is what this Measure does. The people do not want to fight.

  2593
  We do not need conscription unless we are going to fight. We do not need armies unless we are going to engage in war. Some of us are opposed to this Bill on several grounds. I warn my trade union friends here. Do they remember, I wonder—are they old enough to remember—the railway strike in France? Do they remember when the Prime Minister of France smashed that railway strike by conscribing all the employees on the railways? If hon. Gentlemen over there ever have the luck to come back on to this side of the House, and if we have a strike of that dimension, they will use the provisions of this Bill to crush it. Of course, they will. They have done it before. I am old enough to remember some of the things they did at Featherstone and Tonypandy.
  During the war people were punished for making statements causing alarm and despondency. Let me tell my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that they have caused alarm and despondency in millions of working class homes by this Bill. Some hon. Gentlemen on the other side say that they have had only a few protests by way of letters against the Bill. Let me tell them that I had 315 letters in support of my attitude—the biggest postbag I have ever received. Hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to know what the widows who lost their husbands and their sons as well in the two world wars, say about this sort of thing. I stand in protest against the tendency of the nations all over the world to increase expenditure on armaments in peace time as we are doing now. I have tried to figure it out myself. I find that, with all the discoveries and inventions that have been made to increase the wealth of the nations the military caste has claimed a bigger proportion of that wealth as the years go by. I say, therefore, that the time has arrived when there should be a few people in every country to say the things we are trying to say tonight in favour of peace and brotherhood. This is my final word. Unless the human race can find means of securing peace in the world the issue next time will not be the old one of war or peace; it will be simplified diabolically: that issue will be, "Either peace or perish."
  6.55 p.m.
  Mr. Niall Macpherson: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) has expressed himself as usual with fervour and sin-
  2594
  cerely. But there is one thing we must immediately say; and I would say it also in reply to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman): surely, it is not possible for this country to stand alone and give an example? Between the last two wars we attempted to do that by unilateral disarmament.
  Mr. S. Silverman: I said the exact opposite. I said that I was prepared to support provision of the force necessary to make our contribution to the United Nations. No more.
  Mr. Macpherson: The hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying he was asking for a policy which is no substitute for preparedness. We cannot possibly base a sound policy on a background of weakness. If there was one lesson to be learned between the wars it was that. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) and the hon. Member for Westhoughton referred to the lack of enthusiasm for this Bill. There is very little wonder that there should be no enthusiasm for this Bill. It is a compromise Bill. In the first place, obviously, the advice that was received by the Service Ministers was, that we should be able to provide a reasonable period for training, and a period during which men, having been trained, could serve abroad. That time which was demanded by the Service chiefs was whittled down, first of all, to 18 months. Then a further compromise was made, a compromise between those who believed there should be no service whatsoever and those who believed that there should be only 18 months; and they fixed on the time of 12 months, a time which some, it is true, advocated, but advocated on one basis only, and that was that it should be devoted exclusively to training. We listened to a very able defence from the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) of the idea that there should be no conscription at all. Contrary to what he said, I think that all or very nearly all hon. Members in this House are against conscription in principle.
  Mr. George Thomas: But not in practice.
  Mr. Macpherson: In theory, and as far as it went, the right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument against conscrip-

  2595
  tion was extremely sound. But there was one point on which he fell down. He said that at the last Election most people were not in favour of conscription. I believe that is perfectly true. People at that time were looking forward to the time when they would be demobilised, when there would be no further conscription. I believe they are still doing so. But this is not the moment. In the meantime the situation has developed by no means in the way anticipated at the time of the last Election. Our hopes are frustrated. Until the United Nations organisation is itself an organisation of united nations, this country must continue to fend for itself and to build up its own strength on the basis of a citizen army.
  It is undeniable that this Bill gives rise to certain very definite dangers. There is the danger, that has been referred to, that we may merely prepare as though to fight a war like the last war over again. There is a very great danger, whenever we have a large body of men we are turning out of a school every six months or every three months, or whatever the period may be, that the tendency may be to get into a rut. The tendency is to use the same weapons, the same tactics, and not to keep up to date. That is one of the greatest tasks that is laid upon the Minister of Defence and the Service Ministers under this Bill. Conscription cannot possibly work unless that difficulty is overcome.
  The second danger is this. During war, it is possible to train a citizen Army, because of the immediate urgency and the clarity of the purpose for which the men are being trained, but, during peace time, the situation is very different. It is far more difficult to get the men to accept discipline without such a clear purpose, and it is surely essential that we should convey to the serving man the reason why, for a limited time, he is having to do this whole-time service as a national recruit—the need to make peace secure. One of the great difficulties that gives rise to discontent with this Bill is the vagueness which, unfortunately, the Service Ministers have shown in regard to the regulations which they are proposing to make. The hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) dealt with this matter with great clarity, and there are one or two other points to which I would like to refer.
  2596
  I believe that there is a very great danger in dividing this period of 12 months between training and service. The effect that men will never get anything like as good training as they ought to have in 12 months, because we are dividing their training so that part of the time may be spent purely on guard and routine duties abroad. Secondly, there is a great danger that we will never have an efficient Regular Army anywhere at all, because a large body of the Regular Army will be engaged in Germany in taking in recruits, turning them over and turning them out again at the end of their national service. There will be no continuity in units, and that is why some of us on these benches thought that it would be far better to confine national service entirely to training and to rely upon such other incentives to get volunteers into the Regular Forces, to which I referred on the Committee stage.
  There is one particular subject with which I wish to deal, namely, volunteers for the Reserve Army. Under Clause 3 of this Bill, it is possible for men to volunteer for the Reserve Forces while doing their whole-time training, but, so far as I can see, there is no inducement at all to a man to do so. It seems to me that one of the difficulties in recruiting people for the Territorial Army at present is the difficulty of holidays with pay. The man has to go to camp. Will he, as well, get his paid holiday? That, I think, is one of the great deterrents to joining the Territorial Army, and it seems to me that, under this Bill, the situation becomes very much worse. If I am right in my interpretation of the Bill, a conscript is called up to do his service, and it is inevitable that the employer will have to give him his paid holiday in addition. Bu4 does the same thing apply to the volunteer, who is under no statutory duty to go to camp? Will he get a paid holiday as well? If not, what other inducement can possibly be given to the volunteer? Is it that, in future, volunteers will be the noncommissioned officers of the Reserve Forces, because if so, that will be creating a very grave distinction?
  In my view, and I think in tit view of many of my hon. Friends, it is essential to have clearly, on the one side, the volunteer Forces, and, on the other those who are not prepared to accept these additional voluntary commitments at present undertaken by the Territorial Army.

  2597
  I do not believe that the two obligations can be mixed up, and I do not believe that we will ever get efficient Reserve Forces by so doing, just as we will get only inefficient Regular Forces if they spend their time turning over conscripts every six months.
  On the necessity for some measure of national service, we on this bench are fully agreed. A very grave responsibility is falling upon the Service Ministers to devise a new and clear system whereby we can ensure that, in future, reserves are adequately trained during their whole-time Service, and that they do get sufficient refresher training during their part-time Service. So far, we have had no indication from the opposite benches that the Government fully appreciate the principles involved, and that is why we cannot support this Measure with nearly as much confidence as we would wish to do.
  7.10 p.m.
  Mr. Yates: I hope the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) will forgive me if I do not follow his argument in the short time available to me, except to say that I have never heard a case put up for the Government which lacked more conviction. It is amazing that almost every Member who has spoken so far has been critical of the Government, and has practically apologised for supporting them. The one Member on this side of the House who did support the Government concluded by saying that he felt unhappy. I had hoped that after the arguments we had in Committee we should have had some clear evidence, at the conclusion of this Debate, about the necessity for this Bill. That has been lacking. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) suggested that the Conservatives regarded this Bill as necessary, although they doubted whether it would fulfil its purpose. Then he asked the Government to tell the House what were our commitments. I say that those commitments ought to have been known before the necessity for this Bill was admitted.
  My hon. Friends and I on this side of the House, who have opposed this Measure from the beginning, were hopeful that, following the Committee stage, it would emerge as a very different Measure from what it is now. We were hoping that the Government Front Bench would have
  2598
  shown a desire for compromise. Unfortunately, all the compromise has been with the Opposition; we have not been met in any way whatsoever. Our Amendments were designed, not to wreck the Bill, but to make it less harmful to the community. For instance, I do not think that the House has considered sufficiently carefully the proposition to call up young men at the age of 18. When we were told that such young men were likely to become automatons we were told we were living in the past. I had an interesting letter, a few weeks ago, from a sergeant in the British Army on the Rhine, who is attached to headquarters. He told me about the damaging effect of Army life, and I mention this because I say that 18 is too young an age at which to call up men for the Army. This sergeant wrote:
  "The worst aspect of Army life is that it nullifies initiative. A man is subjected to a system which tends to reduce him to an automaton. No opportunity is afforded him of expressing himself in a free and natural way. His thinking is done for him. His individuality is met with frustration at every point. I would stress that the years 18 to 22 are all-important in the development of any youth."
  The hon. Member for Dumfries said that the people of this country were still against conscription, that they were looking forward to the time when there would be no conscription. But what is the position? By Clause 2, a man who is called up on 31st December, 1954, will not be clear from this military machine until 31st December, 1961–16 years after the conclusion of the war. I say that that is going a very long way towards justifying our case that this Bill is really a permanent conscription Bill. Clause 26 limits the duration of the Bill to 1954, bat it includes a paragraph which gives power to the Government to extend its provisions by Order in Council. On this issue, there was opposition from both sides of the House, but the Government refused to move at all. In fairness and justice to the Conservative Party, they put forward an objection to granting power to the Government to continue this Bill by Order in Council. That is the worst part of this Bill; it makes all the difference in saying whether the Bill is permanent or temporary. The Minister of Defence said there was no desire to make this Bill permanent. Then why put such a provision into the Bill? Why not take it out? If the Government do not desire conscription to continue beyond 1954,

  2599
  way ask for that power to be put into the Bill?
  I object to the name of this Bill. Who has any right to say that military service is the only form of national service? It has nothing to do with service as a national service? It is a military conscription Bill. Call it, if you like, a "military service Bill", but do not call it a national service Bill. There are those in America who are trying to use the word "universal," instead of "national," in order to mislead the people. I say that this Bill, far from being a national service Bill, is an international surrender Bill. It is a surrender to all that we in the Socialist movement have believed in internationally. It is a surrender of moral leadership in the world; it is a surrender of the ideals of peace for which we have always stood; it is based, not on sound arguments, statistics, or logic, but on something that will never produce anything great. It is based on suspicion and fear. Therefore, it is wrong and it is bound to end in failure. I regret that this Labour Government should have sought to place this Bill on the Statute Book. I think we shall look back with very great regret to the mistake which is being made. Nevertheless, we must still believe in our international faith, and go on until the people of this country stand firm by a new faith, one that has never really been tried, the international brotherhood of man.
  7.17 p.m.
  Mr. Carmichael: Since the introduction of this Bill I have been an opponent of it. Today, opposition has increased in all quarters of the House. The first opponents were regarded as pacifists, and the Government made the mistake of concentrating their forces against the pacifists and failed to recognise other Members. There cannot now be any doubt of the attitude of the House as a whole. No speech has been made today in real justification of this Bill. The Minister of Defence, who has been in the most unfortunate position of apologising regularly for withdrawals here, and retreats there, did not improve the situation today. I say to him, with all respect, that there is something sadly wrong in the ranks of a Socialist Government who make their defence very largely with the "Daily Express," and the leading chief of that organ.
  2600
  We have had first-class technical arguments for the Bill, and the only defence of it has been put up by the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg). But his defence was such that it would compel the Government, if they had any sense, to withdraw the Bill even now. What was his defence? It was that opponents had no right to be unfair in their criticism of this Measure because the Minister of Defence was new to his job, that he had not a grip of the machinery he had to handle. It was said that there may be an excuse for the Minister of Defence, but that this Measure was primarily an Army Measure. So, the hon. and gallant Member said: "You must be reasonable. The Secretary of State for War has not been long in his job, arid. does not know all the things it is necessary to know in handling a situation like this." Surely, the elementary outcome of that should not be to introduce into any assembly a Measure from a body who have not yet got a grip of it.
  It has been admitted and stressed strongly by the Minister of Labour and the President of the Board of Trade that we are short of manpower to the extent of 600,000. We are to increase that difficulty by taking 200,000 for the Army when. this Bill becomes operative. A further million are to be engaged in part-time service. Is the Minister of Labour satisfied that, as the responsible man for finding the manpower for the industry of this country, he can do without 600,000 men? Can he do without the 200,000 who will be in the Army? Can he permit 1,000,000 people, when this Act is in full operation, to be out of employment at certain times, engaged in carrying out their drills in the Services? From the purely economical point of view, I say quite frankly—I should be glad to be converted from this view—that we cannot see the manpower of this country being denuded to the extent that this Bill will denude it, by taking 200,000 men into the Army and almost a million into part-time military service out of the industries of the country.
  Let us look at the military aspect of it. Let us be frank about it. We are no longer a first-class military Power in the old economic and military sense. Let us assume that the next war, if there is to be a war, will be fought on the basis of manpower. I gather from all

  2601
  parts of the House that everyone is living for peace, and I have never understood the idea that when people are living for peace they arm themselves to the teeth. When a man is walking down the street with the implements of murder see how he gets on when he meets a man from Scotland Yard. Enemy statesmen use the argument that we are arming—for what? Because our main purpose in life is to make peace possible in the world? Let us assume that we want peace. We are entitled to be told where the danger spot is. Once we are told that, surely we are entitled to be told exactly what quota of manpower we can give to a military conflict. Assuming that a military conflict breaks out, and that it is on the old lines of manpower, the honourable course for this nation to take would be to exercise its influence against engaging in conflict. We cannot put an Army into a field that would last very long. I said that during the Committee stage, and I was challenged because I said that Scotland could not give sufficient men for an armed conflict with any other nation. I say that about Great Britain, and I hope that I shall not be accused of decrying the people of this country when I say that, in a purely military sense, this country cannot again engage in a major conflict with any world Power. We all know that the next military conflict will not be on a par even in the measure of efficiency—
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member seems to be discussing foreign policy rather than the Bill.
  Mr. Carmichael: I do not want to dispute your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but during the Debate today we were told that we required a stronger and a larger Army because of foreign commitments. I think that the Minister of Defence submitted some kind of evidence of the commitments for which we required our Army in foreign parts. All I say is that we cannot divorce completely foreign policy from our military commitments.
  If we are to make a contribution to peace, then we must create the peace mind in this country. What we are actually doing—hon. Members have protested against +his statement earlier, but I repeat it—is to create a Hitler youth movement again, because we are taking the young men of 18 into the Army They are
  2602
  attached to the Army for part-time and whole-time service for seven years. The younger members of a family are always encouraged to be interested in the military uniforms of the older members of the family, and I say that not only are we taking the young men into the Army, but we are creating in the younger children in the schools, who look up to their older brothers, the spirit of militarism when we should be destroying it. I ask the Government to believe that they would be rendering greater service to the House and to the country if they had further thoughts about this subject.
  I have watched the Government submit Measures here with the utmost enthusiasm and with complete opposition from this side, and it was a pleasure to see how the Government handled those Measures. The only enthusiasm for this Bill has come from the Opposition. There is something radically wrong in the Socialist Party when the only enthusiasm they get for the Measure which they are pushing through comes from the Conservative side. The only fault found with it by the Conservative Benches is that the Government have not made the period more than 12 months. If the Conservatives by any unfortunate chance occupy the seats of Government again, it will be an easy job, now that we have established the principle of conscription, to introduce an extending Measure, making it two years, three years or longer, because all the technical arguments are against 12 months. I hope that the Government will reflect. I do not know if this Measure is being rushed through because of Margate or any other reason, but I regret that after 50 years of hard struggle and building up of the Labour and Socialist movement, we are unable to go out and give a lead to the rest of the world, when we should be discouraging the military machine as rapidly as we can educate the people, and when we should be giving a lead on moral lines. There must be some people in this world who will be different from other nations and who will give a lead on other than military lines. I should have thought that the Socialist Party would have been the pioneers in creating the mind which would have made the United Nations organisation possible. I regret that I shall have to go into the Lobby tonight against the Government, because I think that they should never have introduced a Measure of this kind.
  7.29 p.m.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: This afternoon must have been the crowning humiliation for His Majesty's Government. With the single chivalrous exception of the hon. and gallant Member for Dudley (Colonel Wigg), the speeches have been of two kinds; either speeches from hon. Members who were utterly and sincerely opposed to the whole object of this Bill, or speeches from hon. Members who, while accepting the objects of the Bill, thought the Bill itself a singularly inefficient method of carrying them out. It must, as the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Carmichael) has said, have been a long time since a whole Parliamentary afternoon has been spent in denouncing either the efficiency or the aims of the occupants of the Treasury Bench. While I disagree with much which was said by the hon. Member for Ladywood (Mr. Yates), I think that he was right in saying that, even now, after all the prolonged discussion of this Bill, we have not yet had from His Majesty's Government any detailed statement as to the commitments which this Bill was designed to meet, nor as to the precise method in which it was intended to fulfil those commitments.
  I must admit that if we were dependent in this Bill on the evidence brought by the Government to justify its necessity, we should find it singularly difficult not to oppose it, and the only reason which to my mind covers that governmental failure is that one has only to look at the state of the world today and one must regard a substantial level of national defence as being a vitally important factor. I may add this. The hon. Member for Ladywood pressed for evidence to show the necessity for this Measure. I hope that he and his colleagues will apply that criterion to other Government Measures and regard it as a proper thing to do when discussing them to be told the necessity for them. If they follow the precedent created this afternoon they will bring new life into this House of Commons though perhaps a degree of embarrassment to His Majesty's Government.
  Much as I appreciate the sincerity of the speeches of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) and the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), I venture the criticism on their arguments that, while I appreciate the strong moral grounds on which they stand in regard to
  2604
  their pacifism, I hope they will not feel it an impertinence on my part if I say they infinitely weaken that case when they try to support it by a strategic argument. It is one thing for a hon. Member to say that he is entirely opposed to military service, but he weakens the effect of that argument when he goes on to say that in the present state of strategy large armies are unnecessary.
  Mr. S. Silverman: In deference to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks), who is not present at the moment, I do not think that anyone could say that he is in any sense a pacifist.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am much obliged to the hon. Member for his intervention, and I certainly would not wish to attribute to an hon. Member views which he did not hold, but it is a fact that certainly the hon. Member for Westhoughton and the hon. Member for Bridgeton did try to support their views with strategic argument.
  Mr. Carmichael: I want to make it clear that while I am opposed to the Bill I have never at any time given evidence that I am a pacifist. I do not say that in any derogatory sense of the word "pacifist." I argued in favour of military effort on certain occasions and under certain circumstances.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I am much obliged to the hon. Member, but I will put to him one point of view. He made his viewpoint abundantly clear in his speech, but once again he tried to support his general view on the matter with strategic argument which, if I may be allowed to say so, he is not qualified to offer. I am not going to attempt to propound high strategy, because, unlike most of my colleagues in this Debate, I am not a brigadier. That no doubt was due to some slight oversight on the part of the military authorities during the war
  To those hon. Members who have sought to support their views by strategic argument, I would say that if it comes to a question of accepting views on strategy of hon. Members opposite or of the military advisers of His Majesty's Government, the ordinary person is going to accept the views of the military advisers of the Government, because those gentlemen have the highest qualifications for their own trade, qualifications which they

  2605
  have demonstrated to the admiration of the world. I should have thought that their technical qualifications as commanders would certainly not be a matter of argument in this House. Therefore, I hope that we shall not argue the general issue of this Bill on that basis of strategy, because I do not doubt—and I believe that hon. Members opposite will so find it if they argue the matter on those lines—that the ordinary person in this country infinitely prefers to accept the views of men like Lord Montgomery even when they are opposed to the strategic views of the hon. Member for Westhoughton.
  I should like to address myself to one part of this Bill which has received very little consideration tonight, and that is the part which has been so valiantly maintained throughout by the Minister of Labour as affecting his own Department. I should certainly be ungenerous and un-chivalrous if I did not say that his conduct of this part of the Measure has been extraordinarily reasonable and helpful. Perhaps I would be allowed to venture the comment that had he been in sole charge of the Bill, possibly its passage might have been both easier and smoother. The point in the Bill to which I wish to refer is that under it immense powers are being given over an entire generation, not to the House of Commons but to the Ministry of Labour.
  One hon. Member opposite was unfair enough to say that hon. Members on this side welcomed the Bill. That, I think, argues an extraordinary ignorance of the views of many of us on these benches; it is extraordinarily insensitive to suggest that any hon. Member likes to hand over the entire life for 12 months of a generation of one's fellow countrymen to the absolute control of the Ministry of Labour. I am perfectly certain that hon. Members who support this Bill will feel a particular sense of responsibility to those young men, whose liberty they are taking away and that they will make it their particular duty to ensure that they, are properly looked after and that their liberties are properly safeguarded. I would remark in parenthesis that most of these young men because of their youth are not yet voters.
  From that point of view it will be seen what a peculiar responsibility we in this House are taking towards these young men by supporting this Bill, and I very much resent the fact that the Ministry of Labour
  2606
  is to be given so complete a control over these young men and such a high degree of freedom from Parliamentary control. After all, there is nothing in the Bill on the whole subject of deferment except to give complete freedom to the Ministry of Labour. There is no statutory right of deferment for miners, students, or apprentices. It is left entirely in the hands of the Ministry of Labour. The provision made in the Bill with respect to doctors makes it clear that it depends on the Ministry of Labour being satisfied of the desirability and the necessity. I suggest that it is not good enough when we hand over completely uncontrolled and unregulated power to the Ministry of Labour.
  The House knows that the only control left as a result of the discussions on this Bill has been the procedure by negative Resolution to annul regulations made under this Bill. In this matter at any rate, dealing with the broad issues affecting the whole lives of a generation for whom I feel we have a peculiar responsibility, a negative Resolution is an inadequate safeguard. First of all, discussions on those Resolutions take place, as do the discussions on this Bill always seem to do, in the middle of the night. They are inevitably conducted in a way that is perhaps not appropriate in this case to their importance. Above all, there is the fact that this House has no power to amend such Regulations, but is compelled to accept them totally or reject them absolutely. I say that that is a wholly unsatisfactory aspect of this Bill, and I ask hon. Members in all parts of the House to reflect what their position will be when parents of those young men among their constituents come to them and object to various aspects of the regulations. They will find that they are virtually powerless because all power is handed over by this Bill to the Ministry of Labour.
  Speaking for myself, I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ladywood said about Clause 26 and the provision for the extension of this Bill by Order in Council. There might well be a case for making this Bill permanent; there might well be a case for making it for a term of years and no more; but this provision of Clause 26 does neither. It puts a date in the Bill so as to give the impression. as it were, that the Measure is for a term

  2607
  of years only, and then hands over to His Majesty's Government—whoever His Majesty's Government of the day may be—power to extend the Bill indefinitely by Order in Council, subject only to that Order in Council being approved by this House. If it is suggested that that gives sufficient control there is one aspect to which I would invite the attention of hon. Members. It is true that they will be able to vote for or against such an Order in Council, but they will have no power to amend any detail of the system of military service. They will have to vote either to accept or reject the whole system and, at the same time, to vote "Aye" or "No" as to whether they wish the Government of the day to remain in Office.
  It is, therefore, a misrepresentation to suggest that this procedure gives any effective Parliamentary control over the continuance of this Bill, and I say that it would have been intellectually more honest, franker to this House and more in the tradition of Parliamentary democracy if His Majesty's Government had seen fit to insert either the fixed period of years or an indefinite period. This shabby compromise, this attempt to disguise what they are in fact doing, is a blemish on the Bill which I regard as very serious. A good deal has been said on the attitude taken by many hon. Members with regard to this Bill. As I have said, I am convinced of the necessity for a system of compulsory military service. I am equally convinced that this is a fumbling and inept method of achieving it, and that it is an attempt to do the right thing in the wrong way. Throughout its structure and throughout the method with which it has been conducted, it bears the hall-mark of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Defence, whose whole conduct of this Bill might well suggest that his title was "Minister of Defiance" rather than Minister of Defence.
  7.44 P.m.
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Isaacs); I have listened to the whole of the Debate this afternoon, with the exception of about 60 seconds, and I think that it has been conducted in a very nice tone, but there are one or two observations I should like to make about it. The hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) concluded his speech, as he so
  2608
  often does, with a nasty little dig which was neither funny nor kind, and which I thought was not worthy of him. He opened his speech by saying that the crowning humiliation for the Government was that there was only one Member on this side of the House who had the chivalry to get up and support them. One or two other hon. Gentlemen on that side said the same thing in other words, but I should like to ask whether it is not chivalry that the supporters of the Government in this matter kept out of the field, thereby giving their opponents the opportunity of making several more speeches than might otherwise have been possible.
  The hon. Gentleman the senior Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. K. Lindsay) set what I think is the mood in which I should like to reply to this Debate. He said that the question needs a most careful, human approach, and I think that in dealing with it one ought to ignore many of the things that have been said—some of them based on prejudice and some on very deep feeling indeed—trying to remember that what we are doing is to take over for a year the entire responsibility for a great number of the young men of our nation. Many of the things that have been said in that and other respects were said many times during the Committee stage, and I will not weary the House by repeating the answers to some of them that have already been given. There was one reference by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) which led me to think that he had mixed up his history. He said that the use of this conscript Army would be to break the trade unions, and that this had already been done at Tonypandy and Featherstone. I remember Tonypandy, and although I cannot say that I remember Featherstone, I know that there was no conscript Army there. It was a voluntary Army.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: I said that troops had been used there and that the railway strike was broken in France by conscription.
  Mr. Isaacs: I know the hon. Gentleman said that, but I challenge him to deny that his imputation was that because they had been used here once before conscript troops would be used again. I have sat for about three hours and have not said a word about any of the remarks that have been made. I now want to try to

  2609
  answer if I can points in the 16 speeches that have been made, and I would ask hon. Members at any rate to let me have a go at it. The hon. Member for Westhoughton, whose feeling we all recognise, asked who was the aggressor against whom we needed to prepare. He went on to say that there were 14 million men under arms in the world today. I would ask him his own question—who are they going to fight? They might want to fight us, and it would ill become a nation upon whom other countries rely to put them on the right lines if, while knowing that the world was filled with armed men, we laid down our arms and said, "Let'em all come."
  I was surprised when the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. N. Macpherson) said that this country must fight for itself and build up its strength for defence, because I had a recollection that he had put down an Amendment to reduce the training period from 18 months to 9 months. I wondered how he squared those two things. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Carmichael) referred to the manpower position and said that we were 600,000 men short, and were now taking another 200,000 out of industry into the Army. It must be borne in mind, however, that for some time, at any rate, the 200,000 men in question will be replacing the men who are coming out of the Army and going back into industry. Nevertheless, it is a fact that we are still that number short, and I must plead that as part of the Government's reason for reducing the 18 months' period to 12 months so that we should not deplete our manpower more than was absolutely necessary.
  The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) is here, and I should like to deal with one or two things he said. He asked for positive information, and I hope to be able to provide it. He said that the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) called for an answer. It does, but his questions were so detailed that even if other Ministers, skilled in the job of the Department concerned, were here I am not sure that they could answer. It requires a good deal of examination to give an answer. It concerns periods of training, methods of training and so on, and I promise that these matters will be exam-
  2610
  ined and given due consideration. I, too, have some interest in the Territorials, and if we are to put these young fellows into the Forces, we want to do it in such a way that it will be to their advantage, to the advantage of the Forces, and to the advantage of the country. As Minister of Labour, I shall certainly want to see that manpower is not wasted in that way if it can be utilised.
  Mr. Frank Byers: Is it not a remarkable admission that these matters have not been previously examined?
  Mr. Isaacs: I have not made that admission at all. I simply said that they were too detailed to be answered today.
  Mr. Byers: They have been raised time and time again.
  Mr. Isaacs: I have given my answer that they will be carefully examined, and that a detailed answer will be given. The hon. and learned Member for Daventry asked that the rights of reinstatement should be properly made known to everyone concerned. He made the interesting suggestion of bringing out a booklet or a leaflet. That course will probably be adopted, although I can give no pledge on that at this moment. It is our intention to see that the rights of reinstatement are well known; after all, they were well known during the war. and, in the main, these rights have been honourably discharged by all concerned. He also asked that it should be possible for occasional deferments. I can assure the House that a rigid line will not be drawn, and that we shall not say to everyone who reaches the age of 18, "In you go." We shall continue to do what we did during the war, and what we have done since I have been at the Ministry of Labour. Many hon. Members have asked whether I cannot give a man four or six months more, and that has been done on many occasions. Whether deferment has been given or not, it has been decided from the angle of giving a square deal and playing the game by all concerned, and that is my answer to the hon. and learned Member. The hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. Rankin) said that conscription leads to Fascism. I would point out that Belgium, France, Holland and Switzerland have all had conscript armies, and whatever else it has done, it has certainly not led to

  2611
  Fascism in their cases. I ask him to remove that fear from his mind
  I will now deal with the speech of the hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Ayles), who moved what is really the rejection of the Bill. He said that we were engaged upon making a great constitutional change. That is so, but the war has brought about great changes of many kinds. In the opinion of the Government—and it is clear now that it is the opinion of the majority of Members—it is necessary to make this constitutional change. We know that some do not think it should be made, but they are entitled to their opinion the same as we are entitled to ours. He said that if there were a national emergency we would all rally to the country. We know that. I remember listening, on that memorable Sunday night, to the right hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) asking the people to rally to the country, and they rallied in their thousands. We shall always be proud that of our own free will we donned the King's uniform and wore the badge of the Home Guard. But what did we find? We found that one and a half million men rallied to the call, and that we had no equipment or training. I remember being put on guard in those early days. I know that I did my guard duty all right, because I was looking after Hampton Court Bridge and it is still there. I remember that when the two men on guard used to come back and break up our crown and anchor party because it was our turn to go on, we used to swop guns, steel helmets and hand over the five rounds of ammunition which were served out to us. What good would these men have been if the enemy had come? All those who served in the Home Guard knew that they would have been a "darned sight" better off had they had a little more training before they came in.
  Mr. Byers: What about equipment?
  Mr. Isaacs: I have been speaking about equipment. I am looking to the future, and I am only giving the background of the past to show what we have learned by it. Not only shall we have the men with some degree of training, but at least they will have some ammunition and equipment. We did not have much equipment. I remember carrying around a "Molotov Cocktail" and being scared stiff that I should slip up and drop the bottle. I
  2612
  remember that, in my unit some thought "No. 1" was the fellow who had volunteered first. We discovered then that without some basic training, if there had been an attack, the only thing with which these men had to defend their country was their bodies. That is not what we want in future. If anyone can give me a cast-iron guarantee that this country will never be attacked and we shall never have to defend ourselves at home or abroad, then I am prepared to say that we shall not need conscription.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. Davies) said that we are fighting for the principle of individual liberty, but there can be no individual liberty if national liberty is lost. We believe that this Bill is necessary to retain our national liberty, and that is why we are asking the House to support it. The hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman) made a very interesting speech. He said there were certain ambiguities to be cleared up, but before he had finished his speech he had created a lot more, which I have been trying to sort out. He asked whether the Government had come down in support of compulsion. My answer is this Bill. He then asked why there should not be compulsion other than for National Service. He was not arguing for that, but he said that if we believed in compulsion for National Service we could not object to compulsion of labour. That is a long question to go into, but we say there is a difference. The voluntary system has been tried, and it has not given us the forces we consider necessary for our national defence, and therefore we have had to bring in this Bill. He asked when the world would be in settled state so that we should not need armies. In saying that, he admitted the need for armies when the world is unsettled as it now is, and that is the point.
  Mr. S. Silverman: The ambiguity to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred is not the one I mentioned. I said that there was an ambiguity between the statement made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the statement made by the Minister of Defence. Whereas the Chancellor of the Exchequer said he would support this Bill because he was satisfied that the principle of compulsion was the right one, the Minister of Defence said the opposite; he said it was one that they

  2613
  did not like and they would abandon it when they could. The ambiguity I want cleared up is this—whether the Government have brought in this Bill because they have now accepted the principle of compulsion for its own sake and on its own merits or whether it is a purely temporary provision and, if so, in what circumstances will they abandon it?
  Mr. Isaacs: That may have been one of the ambiguities which the hon. Member said he wanted cleared up, but there is not time to go into that now. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the answer?"] I think the answer was a certain fruit, but I am not sure. There was another argument which my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne put. He said that the United Nations was the only hope of the world, there was no other. and he followed it up by saying:
  "I am prepared to take all the violent action that the United Nations requires."
  I would remind him that we cannot take the violent action which the United Nations may require unless we have the forces necessary to enable us to take it. I think I understand the hon. Gentleman's point; we must be prepared to take the necessary steps to have those proper forces. I would like to make one reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Mr. Cocks). We all recognise the painstaking care and the deep research that must have gone into the preparation of a speech of that character. I liked his reference to the obsolete artillery on the Government Front Bench. It was proved up to the hilt by the obsolete contribution he made in support of his case. It was brilliant wit, it amused us, but was it any help in connection with this Bill?
  I should like to close my comments on the speeches that have been made by reference to the speech of the hon. Member for Southall, and I should like to close on the note that he himself introduced. We all know the deep feeling and the sincerity with which he holds his views, and none of us would attempt to stop him that is not what I am going to do. He mentioned the name of the Almighty and mentioned it in a way which showed the utmost reverence and sincerity. He said that under this Bill the State is supreme. Without trying to be irreverent at all, the State must be supreme. After all, though we all close
  2614
  our eyes in prayer, though there is an Almighty to whom all of us pay reverence, the administration of the nation is in the hands of the State, and the State must take the necessary steps. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Hon. Gentlemen over there are making funny faces about it, but the fact remains, whether we talk about defence or the provision of work or old age pensions, or whatever it is, it is the State that has to do it. and it is the State alone that can do it. Therefore, under his Bill the State is supreme and must be supreme.
  Mr. Blackburn: Will my right hon. Friend forgive me—
  Mr. Isaacs: I am dealing with the speech of the hon. Member for Southall, and should he want to question me upon it I will give way, but we do not want other people interpreting somebody's speech, except the man at this Box, whose job it is to do so. I want to say to the hon. Member for Southall that it is in the same spirit, strange as it may seem, that we look upon this Bill. The State rightly or wrongly, has a duty to perform. We believe it is our duty to perform it in a spirit of prayer, that we are acting under the Almighty in helping the country. We believe that if we do not do something of this sort there is a greater risk that the forces of danger, reaction, misery and greed will become rampant in the world, unless we take our place—
  Mr. Blackburn rose—
  Mr. Isaacs: No, definitely not. We have to have police for our internal defence against crime, we must have some sort of police. It is the responsibility of all citizens to defend the State. At the same time, it is the supreme duty of the State to defend its citizens, and it is because we think that this Bill—I will say that, like everybody else, we wish it were possible to do without it, we wish it were possible to wander along in the world without armed forces, but the world being as it is, we must face the occasion as it is—because we think this Bill will help us to perform that duty. Because of these other reasons, I ask the House to accept from me that it is in the same spirit as that in which the hon. Member for Southall moved his Amendment that we now ask the House to accept this Bill.
  Several Hon. Members rose.
  Mr. R. J. Taylor (Lord of the Treasury)rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put. "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided: Ayes, 190; Noes, 70.

  Division No. 225.]

  AYES

  [8.7 p.m.

  Adams, W T (Hammersmith, South)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Pearson, A.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Gunter, R. J

  Platts-Mills, J. F. F.

  Alpass, J. H.

  Guy, W. H.

  Popplewell, E.

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  Baird J.

  Hall, W G.

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Balfour, A

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R

  Price, M. Philips

  Barton, C.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Bechervaise, A. E

  Hobson, C R.

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Belcher, J. W.

  Holman, P.

  Ranger, J.

  Bellenger, Rt Hon. F. J

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Rees-Williams, D. R.

  Benson, G.

  House, G.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Berry, H.

  Hoy, J.

  Rhodes, H.

  Beswick, F

  Hubbard, T

  Robens, A.

  Binns, J.

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Rogers, G. H. R.

  Blenkinsop, A.

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Roes, William (Kilmarnock)

  Blyton, W. R

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Sharp, Granville

  Boardman, H.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Shurmer, P.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Silverman, J (Erdington)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Irving, W. J.

  Simmons, C J

  Brook, D. (Hallfax)

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Brown, T. J (Ince)

  Janner, B.

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

  Jager, G. (Winchester)

  Snow, Capt J. W

  Burden, T. W.

  Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)

  Sorensen, R. W

  Burke, W. A.

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Soskice, Maj. Sir

  Castle, Mrs. B. A.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Sparks, J. A.

  Chamberlain, R. A

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Stamford, W

  Chater, D.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Steele, T.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Keenan, W.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Clitherow, Dr. R.

  Kenyon, C

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Colman, Miss G. M

  Key, C. W.

  Summerskill, Dr Edith

  Cook, T. F.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E

  Swingler, S.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camberwell, N.W.)

  Kinley, J.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Kirby, B. V.

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Lavers, S.

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Cove, W. G.

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  Leonard, W.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Leslie, J. R

  Titterington, M. F

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Levy, B. W

  Turner-Samuels, M

  Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Longden, F.

  Ungoed-Thomas,

  Deer, G.

  McAdam, W

  Walkden, E

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Walker, G. H.

  Delargy, H. J.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Diamond, J.

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Dobbie, W.

  McLeavy, F

  Watson, W. M.

  Dodds, N. N

  Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Donovan, T.

  Marquand, H. A

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Driberg, T. E. N

  Mikardo, Ian

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Mitchison, G.

  Wigg, Col. G. E.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Monslow, W.

  Wilkes, L.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Montague, F.

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Moody, A. S.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Evans, S N. (Wednesbury)

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don Valley)

  Ewart, R.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

  Williams, W. R (Heston)

  Farthing, W. J.

  Mort, D. L.

  Williamson, T

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Willis, E.

  Follick, M.

  Noel-Baker, Capt F. E (Brentford)

  Wilson, J. H.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J (Derby)

  Woodburn, A.

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Young, Sir R. (Newton)

  Gaitskell, H T. N

  Oldfield, W. H

  Gibbins, J.

  Oliver, G. H

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES

  Gilzean, A

  Paget, R. T.

  Mr. Joseph Henderson and

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Paling, Rt. Hon Wilfred (Wentworth)

  and Mr. Collindridge.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Palmer, A. M. F

  NOES.

  Agnew, Cmdr P. G.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Amory, D. Heathooat

  Butcher, H. W

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Byers, Frank

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Carson, E.

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Challen, C.

  Digby, S. W.

  Bower, N.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.

  Drewe, C.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Scott, Lord W.

  George, Lady M, Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  Smith, E. P (Ashford)

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Spearman, A. C. M.

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C

  Medlicott, F.

  Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)

  Hogg, Hon. Q.

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  Hope, Lord J

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Studholme, H. G

  Howard, Hon. A

  Neven-Spence, Sir B

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Nield, B (Chester)

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Nutting, Anthony

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Pitman, I. J.

  Williams, C. (Torquay)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G

  Ponsonby, Col. E.

  York, C.

  Kendall, W. D.

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES

  Lancaster, Col. C G

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Major Conant and

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Renton, D.

  Lieut.-Colonel Thorp.

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A H

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Question put accordingly, "That now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, '232; Noes, 44.

  Division No. 226.]

  AYES.

  [8.16 p.m.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G

  Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.

  Eden, Rt. Hon. A.

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Lavers, S.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)

  Lee, F. (Hulme)

  Amory, D. Heathcote

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

  Leonard, W.

  Baird, J.

  Ewart, R.

  Leslie, J. R.

  Balfour, A.

  Farthing, W J.

  Levy, B. W.

  Barton, C.

  Fletcher, E. G. M (Islington, E.)

  Lindsay, K, M. (Comb'd Eng. Univ.)

  Bechervaise, A. E.

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Beechman, N. A.

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  McAdam, W.

  Belcher, J. W.

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M

  McEntee, V. La T.

  Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.

  Gaitskell, H. T. N.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Bennett, Sir P

  Gibbins, J.

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Berry, H.

  Gilzean, A.

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Beswick, F.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  McLeavy, F.

  Binns, J.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)

  Macpherson, N. (Dumfries)

  Blenkinsop, A

  Gridley, Sir A.

  Manning, C. Camberwell, N.)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Manningham-Buller, R. E.

  Boardman, H.

  Grimston, R. V

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  Bottomley, A. G.

  Gunter, R. J.

  Marquand, H. A.

  Bower, N.

  Guy, W. H.

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Haire, John E. (Wycombe)

  Medlicott, F.

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.

  Hall, W. G

  Mikardo, Ian

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Mitchison, G. R.

  Brook, D (Halifax)

  Hannan, W. (Marvhill)

  Montague, F.

  Bruce, Maj. D. W. T

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Moody, A. S.

  Burke, W. A.

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T

  Butcher, H. W.

  Hobson, C R.

  Morgan, Dr H. B.

  Carson, E.

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Morrison, Rt. Hon H (L'wish'm E.)

  Castle, Mrs. B. A

  Holman, P.

  Mort, D. L.

  Chater, D.

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Neven-Spence, Sir B.

  Chetwynd, G. R.

  Hope, Lord J.

  Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col- G

  House, G.

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Clitherow, Dr. R.

  Howard, Hon A

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Hoy, J.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon P. J. (Derby)

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E

  Hubbard, T

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Cook, T. F.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Oldfield, W. H.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Oliver, G H

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S.

  Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)

  Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Crossman, R. H. S.

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'gh, W.)

  Palmer, A. M. F.

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E

  Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.)

  Pargiter, G. A.

  Cuthbert, W N.

  Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

  Pearson, A.

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Irving, W J

  Pitman, I. J.

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G A

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Janner, B

  Popplewell, E.

  Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)

  Jeffreys, General Sir G.

  Porter, E. (Warrington)

  de Fre tas, Geoffrey

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Delargy, H. J

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Price, M. Philips

  Diamond, J.

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Digby, S. W

  Jones, J. H (Bolton)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Dobbie, W.

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H.

  Dodds, N. N

  Keenan, W.

  Ramsay, Maj. S.

  Donovan, T.

  Kerr, Sir J Graham

  Ranger, J

  Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)

  Key, C. W.

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Drewe, C

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

  Rees-Williams, D. R.

  Driberg, T. E. N

  Kinley, J

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

  Kirby, B V

  Renton, D.

  Rhodes, H

  Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

  Wells, W T. (Walsall)

  Robens, A

  Studholme, H G.

  Wheatley, Colonel M J

  Rogers, G. H. R

  Summerskill, Dr Edith

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon W

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Swingler, S

  Wigg, Col. G E

  Scott, Lord W.

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Wilkes, L.

  Segal, Dr. S

  Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)

  Willey, F T (Sunderland)

  Sharp, Granville

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Williams, C (Torquay)

  Shepherd, W S (Bucklow)

  Thomas, I O (Wrekin)

  Williams, J. L (Kelvingrove)

  Simmons, C. J

  Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

  Williams, Rt Hon T. (Don Valley)

  Smith, E. P. (Ashford)

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R A F

  Williamson, T

  Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W)

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Willis, E.

  Snow, Capt J. W

  Titterington, M. F

  Wilson, J H

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F

  Turner-Samuels, M

  Woodburn, A

  Sparks, J A

  Ungoed-Thomas, L

  York, C.

  Spearman, A. C. M

  Walkden, E

  Young, Sir R (Newton)

  Stanley, Rt Hon. O

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Steele, T

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Stewart J. Henderson (Fite, E.)

  Warbey, W. N

  Mr. Joseph Henderson and

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E)

  Watson, W. M

  Mr. Collindridge.

  Strauss, H G. (English Universities)

  Webb, M (Bradford, C.)

  NOES

  Battley J. R

  Kenyon, C.

  Silverman, J (Erdington)

  Blackburn, A. R

  Lengden, F

  Silverman, S S. (Nelson)

  Braddock, T. (Mitcham)

  McGhee, H G

  Sorensen, R W

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  McGovern, J.

  Stephen, C

  Carmichael, James

  Manning, Mrs L (Epping)

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Cocks, F. S.

  Morley, R.

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  Collins, V. J

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Walker, G. H.

  Cove, W. G

  Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)

  Wilkins, W A.

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Nichol, Mrs M E. (Bradford. N.)

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Paton, Mrs F. (Rushcliffe)

  Williams, W R (Heston)

  Forman, J C.

  Platts-Mills, J F F

  Yates, V F

  George, Lady M Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Rankin, J.

  Zilliacus, K.

  Goodrich, H. E.

  Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)

  Gruffydd, Prof. W. J

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

  Royle, C.

  Mr. Ayles and Mr. Byers.

  Kendall W D

  Shurmer, P

  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  STATISTICS OF TRADE BILL
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [25th April; on Consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee).
  CLAUSE 4.—(Offences relating to returns.)
  Amendment proposed: In page 3, line 4, leave out from "pounds." to the end of line 8, and insert:
  "or, in the case of a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding two hundred pounds.
  (2) If the failure in respect of which a person is convicted under the last foregoing Subsection is continued after the conviction he shall be guilty of a further offence and may on summary conviction thereof be punished accordingly."—[The Solicitor-General.]
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. Marlowe: When the Debate was adjourned, I was addressing the House on this Amendment, and I hope I can impress upon the Solicitor-General the necessity for making some alteration in the Amendment. The position, as I
  2620
  see it, is that an offence is created where a person fails to send in a return; under the Amendment, the position is that on a second conviction a person can be subjected to this greatly increased penalty. What is worrying me is what is to be taken as being a second conviction According to the wording of the Amendment, before a person can be liable to this increased penalty, he must have been already convicted, and therefore, he must have been convicted on a failure to make a return. If we allow the Amendment to be made, the very moment a person has been convicted he will become liable to a second conviction, and therefore, liable to the increased penalty, without any further action having been taken by the Board of Trade or whoever it is who requires the information.
  If one tries to visualise that in practical terms, it means that a man can be taken before a court for having failed to make a return, and can be fined. As he walks out of the court, he can be served with another summons because he is still failing to make a return. One knows that in practice that might not happen, but we cannot legislate on the basis of what may happen in practice. We have to get the thing straight. He could, theoretically, be served with another summons

  2621
  there and then, taken before the court again, and immediately be subjected to the increased penalty. I cannot believe mat the Solicitor-General wants to achieve that result. What he wants to achieve is that if a man has been convicted, and if he is still adamant in his attitude about refusing to make a return, he should be liable to the increased penalty. Surely, the proper way to do that is to serve another notice. There would then be a second offence None of us would disagree with the intention of the Solicitor-General that there should be an increased penalty for the subsequent offence. As I see the position, the Solicitor-General does not achieve that by the Amendment. I would like to see some words inserted which would have the effect that, when a man has been once convicted, another request for a return is made, and a failure to comply with that second request should be the second offence which would lead to a second conviction and make the man liable to the higher penalty. As it stands at present, a man is faced with the prospect of being convicted a second time for failure to comply with the first notice. In other words, there are two penalties for one offence. If he fails to make a return, he can be convicted, and, five minutes afterwards, he can be convicted again of not making the return on the same request. If the hon. and learned Solicitor-General would make it clear that another request must be made before a second conviction is imposed. that, I think, would meet the position.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: I would ask my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade to look at this Clause because I think it is open to very serious criticism. On a previous occasion, the hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller), when discussing the matter, appeared to construe the second part of the Amendment as meaning that a fine of £200 a day could he imposed instead of the fine of £10 a day which had previously been mentioned. Of course, that was undoubtedly a misapprehension of the meaning of the Clause. I intervened while the hon. Member for Daventry was putting that view forward, and I daresay that, on reflection, he will agree I was
  2622
  right and that his view was a misapprehension.
  The position is that here we have a Clause as well as an Amendment which is seeking to set up an offence, and which is attaching a penalty to that offence. In other words, it is creating a crime. Therefore, it seems to me, as I am sure it must to everyone else, that, in such a case, one ought to take the greatest care and have the greatest clarity. There is certainly no clearness about this particular Amendment. What it apparently seeks to do when there is what is called "a further offence" is to increase the penalty from £50 to £200, instead of having a continuous fine of £10 a day, which was previously provided for in the Clause. The fundamental objection to it is that a "further" offence is created the moment there has been a first conviction and a fine has been paid on that conviction, The moment afterwards, as visualised by this Amendment, the first offence itself becomes a further offence, and I would ask my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General to look at his argument about that which was reported in HANSARD on 25th April. He said:
  "The failure may continue. But t he offence in respect of which the prosecution has been launched has, in fact, been wiped out."—OFFICIAL REPORT. 25th April, 1947: Vol. 436, c 1493.]
  But it has not been wiped out at all. The point about this Amendment is that that very offence is made to continue. It is true that it turns up in the form of being a further offence, but it is a further offence founded upon precisely the same default on which there has just been a conviction, and on which a fine has just been paid. I am perfectly sure that that is not the position which my hon. and learned Friend or my right hon. and learned Friend the President of the Board of Trade wishes to set up.
  The other argument which the Solicitor-General put forward was that rather than have this fine of £10 a day, he thought it would be better to have a fixed fine of £200. The Solicitor-General fails to see that whereas, without this Amendment, it takes 20 days before £200 accumulates at £10 a day, if this Amendment is accepted, within a few minutes of the conviction and the fine being paid the offender is liable to pay £200. He has not got to

  2623
  wait 20 days, or even 20 minutes. Therefore, the argument that it would be fairer to an offender to let him know that he would have to pay a specific sum falls to the ground. Far from being easier for him, it is much harder, because he immediately becomes liable to pay the whole penalty of £200.
  A more objectionable feature of the Amendment is this. Assuming a man to have been convicted and to have paid his fine, and assuming that he delivers the return or estimate within 24 hours, after that he has still committed an offence during the interval. Surely, that cannot be intended by the Government. There is no provision for an interval in which to enable him to comply with the requirements of the Act. In other Acts there is a provision whereby, when there has been a conviction, the court is empowered to fix a reasonable period during which the penalty shall not apply. The court says that the offender shall be given a certain period in which to comply with the requirements of the Act, after which the man shall be liable to a further fine. There are a number of Acts containing such a Clause including, I believe, the Water Act, 1945. It is true that that provision applies in cases where the fine goes on from day to day, but the principle involved in this Bill is not at all different from those cases, because the liability here under the Amendment operates at once as soon as the man has been fined and there is a conviction.
  There is another and serious objection. It does not necessarily follow that there is to be a prosecution by the Crown. It is strange that in a Bill of this character there is no provision, such as one often finds, to the effect that there is to be no right to institute proceedings except by, or on behalf of, the Attorney-General or the Director of Public Prosecutions. Such a provision is to be found in the Local Government Act, 1933, and other Statutes. I believe it is in the Water Act, 1945, to which I have referred, as well. Supposing there has been an interval of 24 hours in which the offender has not complied with the requirement to send in the return or estimate, what happens is this: there may not be a prosecution by the Crown, but a private person can initiate a prosecution of this kind, and that seems to me to be a very serious matter indeed. There ought to be in this legislation a provision which
  2624
  enables only the Director of Public Prosecutions to take proceedings. In conclusion, I would suggest an Amendment to this proposed Amendment, namely, after the word "continued," in the second line of Subsection (2), to insert: "for a period of one month, unless the court shall deem it necessary in the circumstances to fix a shorter period. …" The result of that would be that Subsection (2) of the Amendment would read as follows:
  "If the failure in respect of which a person is convicted under the last foregoing sub- section is continued for a period of one month, unless the court shall deem it necessary in the circumstances to fix a shorter period after the conviction, he shall be guilty of a further offence. …
  If that were done, in my humble submission, it would cure the main objections to this particular Amendment. I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to accede to this suggestion and thereby satisfy the objections raised from both sides of the House.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Frank Soskice): I listened with attention, both to the speeches made today on this Amendment and those made on the last occasion on which this Bill was before the House. I feel that hon. Members opposite and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels) are unduly apprehensive. What is the object of this Amendment? It is, as was said last time, simply to—
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: the hon. and learned Member has already spoken on this Amendment, on 25th April.
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): The Minister in charge of the Bill has a perfect right to speak twice.
  Mr. Hudson: All three Ministers?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No, only one.
  Mr. Hudson: May we know which Minister is in charge of this Bill
  The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps): This Minister is in charge of the Bill.
  The Solicitor-General: I was saying, that the whole object of this particular part of the Amendment is to quantify what otherwise may be a continually augmenting penalty. As was pointed out on the last occasion this was discussed, it is not fair to a person who is liable to be charged

  2625
  with an offence that the penalty which he might have to pay might be £100, £300 or £500, according to the purely fortuitous circumstance whether the case were heard at a later or an earlier date, that often being a matter which is entirely out of his control. I hope hon. Members on both sides of the House accept that in principle the Amendment is designed to achieve a useful object.
  I now address myself to the particular objection raised against the Amendment by the hon. and learned Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe). He said it was not really fair that immediately a person came out of a police court, having been lined for an offence under the Clause, he should be liable to be fined again if his failure to render the return continued for another five minutes. If I may say so, with respect to him, it seems to me that that is a purely fanciful objection.
  Mr. Marlowe: It may be fanciful, but would not the hon. and learned Member agree that it is, in effect, what could happen?
  The Solicitor-General: The Clause has to be interpreted reasonably. Even if it could happen, exactly the same thing could happen under the various motor car regulations. If when a person is driving a motor car his light is out, he can be fined five seconds afterwards if the offence is committed five seconds afterwards; if he comes to a halt sign and goes over the halt sign he can be fined for that—
  Mr. R. S. Hudson rose—
  The Solicitor-General: Perhaps I might complete my point before giving way. Therefore, in relation to a very large number of offences which are set up by the laws of this country, if a prosecutor is determined to be completely unreasonable about the matter he can prosecute for the most minor infringement; the smallest Infringements in the world can render a person liable to criminal proceedings under various Statutes of Parliament. But I do not suppose a police authority, or any other authority, would be so inane and inept as to prosecute in that sort of case. Of course, that does not happen. If it did happen, there is always the Probation of Offenders Act, and the charge could be dismissed without a conviction being registered, and without a
  2626
  fine being imposed. Therefore, I characterise the supposition upon which the objection is based as a fanciful one.
  8.45 p.m.
  After all, one must consider the circumstances. If a man fails to make a return he then, in due course, receives a summons. Some days, no doubt, will have gone by, if not some weeks, before he gets the summons. Then, it takes some time before the case is heard at the police court. At any time during that period, if he wants to he can make that return. There is nothing to stop his making the return. He is not liable to any penalty at all, unless he has not an excuse. That was the effect of the Amendment introduced at the last sitting. He has got to have no excuse for not making the return. Only if he has not got an excuse is he criminally liable. Every day that goes by he can make the return before, in due course, the proceedings are heard. If he does not make the return in that time, several weeks afterwards, it is entirely his own fault.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: There is just one point I should like to put. That may be so. But it is provided in so many Acts that there should be a reasonable period fixed by the magistrate from the date of conviction in order that some reasonable gap can still be made between the conviction and the resumption of the offence. Why should that be so in some cases and not in others?
  Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. and learned Member is making a second speech.
  Mr. Turner-Samuels: No, Sir.
  The Solicitor-General: The answer is, because Acts differ. Some have gaps and some have not. Many Acts have no gaps. That is the answer to that question. If there is an unreasonable prosecution the charge can be dismissed under the Probation of Offenders Act. 1f in some case, owing to a mistake or through ineptitude, there is an unreasonable prosecution, the case can be dismissed; or there could be a small penalty or no penalty at all. The person charged with the offence would be in no worse position than would be another person in the case of any other offence. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Gloucester proposed that

  2627
  the Director of Public Prosecutions should be the only person to initiate prosecutions under this Bill. I do not know. I suppose one could make exactly the same suggestion in regard to every Act setting up the law of this country. Why, that being so, my hon. and learned Friend, not caring very much about it, should single out this instance to display his knowledge I cannot think; but he has done so, and I can only answer that it does not seem to me to be necessary, with the greatest respect to him, that the Director should be the only person in this class of case to initiate proceedings.
  Mr. Henry Strauss: The hon. and learned Gentleman has said quite rightly, if I may say so, that there was an interval between the defendant's receiving the summons and his prosecution. I ask him to suppose a case where during that interval the defendant believed, bona fide, but wrongly, that he had a defence. In that case it would be most unreasonable to have a second prosecution immediately after the first. I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to consider inserting the words "after an interval reasonably sufficient for furnishing such estimates or returns."
  The Solicitor-General: I cannot really think it is necessary to alter it in that sense. A person who commits an offence and thinks he has a defence is in the same position as any other person prosecuted for an offence. One has to try to see one does not commit an offence, and if one is wrong-headed and takes a perverse view of the law one has to take the consequences.
  Mr. Strauss: Certainly, but the hon. and learned Gentleman will realise, surely, that the man will have paid the penalty for that at his first trial. The only thing I was asking him to consider was whether, having paid the penalty for the first offence, he should be instantly liable for a second offence?
  The Solicitor-General: Does the hon. arid learned Gentleman really think the man would be instantly prosecuted for another offence? [HON. MEMBERS: "He could be."] I do not want to use disrespectful language, but that is too absurd for words, If he did, he would know how
  2628
  to deal with it. I hope I have now dealt with all the objections. I see an hon. Gentleman shaking his head, but I think the answer I have given is an adequate one. The Clause as it is will work reasonably well, in the sense that a person convicted of an offence will have plenty of time in which to make a further return, to think whether or not he should make a return, and to take advice if he is really in doubt about it, and, in nine cases out of 10, and, possibly, in 99 out of 100, there will not be the least doubt whether he has to make a return or not. It is not that we are asking him to do something of immense difficulty. He is asked to make a return, and either he does so or not, but, by doing so, he can remove all danger of prosecution. I therefore ask the House to say that the Amendment should stand.
  Mr. R. S. Hudson: I wish I could understand the processes of the hon. and learned Gentleman's mind which gave rise to the speech he has just made. After all, he is being asked on both sides of the House merely to alter the wording of the Amendment, and I gather that there are several possible ways of doing it. One has been suggested by one of his own supporters, and another by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Combined English Universities (Mr. H. Strauss)—merely in order to make clear and certain what the hon. and learned Gentleman alleges is going to he the normal every-day result of the Amendment moved earlier.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman gave as an illustration or analogy the case of a man who was prosecuted because the lights on his motorcar had gone out. I think that, when he reads in HANSARD what he actually said, he will realise the absurdity of the analogy he drew. To suggest that, after a man had been prosecuted because the lights on his motor car were out, and he had been fined, he might immediately thereafter be summoned again—[Interruption.] Well, it may not be what the hon. and learned Gentleman meant, but that is what he said. We have to suppose that the man whose car lights were out was caught by a policeman and summoned, and then we have to suppose that he attended at the court after dark and left his motorcar outside while the case was being tried, and without lights. When he came out, after having been

  2629
  convicted and fined, he found a policeman outside the court waiting to pinch him again. Really, if the hon. and learned Gentleman thinks that is an accurate analogy to what we are objecting to, I feel sorry for him. It is ridiculous to suggest that we are objecting to that kind of thing. What we are anxious to do is to make sure, in the words of the Statute, that the contingency which has been foreseen by hon. Members on all sides of the House cannot possibly arise, and I really do not understand why the hon. and learned Gentleman is being so stubborn in not seeing the point and accepting the slight alteration of the wording which is involved.
  The hon. and learned Gentleman said that his hon. and learned Friend behind him had quoted a certain Act which made provision for the gap, to which the learned Solicitor-General answered that some Acts had a gap and some had not, and he seemed to assume that that was an adequate argument for intelligent people on both sides of the House. If some Acts have gaps and some have not, why on earth should not this Bill be included in those that have gaps? It is not difficult; there is no question of principle. Why should we accept that view merely because the learned Solicitor-General said so? He merely said he thought that was so; it is just an ipse dixit. That is part of the totalitarian attitude. [Laughter.] It is no joke.
  Earlier, the Solicitor-General made a statement about evidence, and said that any Government was entitled to get evidence where it could, and had the right to get it, so that it could prosecute. That is not a doctrine on which this nation has been brought up; it is part of the new doctrine of totalitarianism. I appeal to the Government to meet us on this point in order to accelerate business. After all, I am always anxious to help. Only this morning the Minister of Fuel and Power gave me an unsolicited testimonial in Standing Committee. It was slightly embarrassing. If the Solicitor-General does not want to meet us now, perhaps the Amendment can be made in another place. I really think that he is not being as reasonable as his smiling countenance might lead people, who had not heard his previous arguments, to suppose.
  Mr. Charles Williams: Any Member who listened to the legal speeches
  2630
  from the other side of the House must have inevitably felt deep sympathy with the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman was obviously in a difficulty in face of the brilliant legal argument, the deep legal knowledge, of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. Turner-Samuels). I only wish that the Leader of the House could have been here when the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester made his speech, because I feel sure that he would have seen a chance to strengthen the Government's weak legal team. The hon. and learned Member put up an amazing effort in his legal exposition of the difficulties arid weaknesses of this Amendment.
  My chief reason for objecting to the Amendment is that it would create new offences. I quite realise that there are Members who like making new offences, but I do not really believe that they are so fond of doing that as they sometimes make out. I am not sure about the Leader of the House, but I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman whose name is on the back of the Bill would not wish to create new offences if he could help it. I cannot hope to put the position half as well as the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester put it, in his legal and technical language. As an ordinary back bench Member, I simply appeal to the Government not to insist on creating new offences. There are so many offences which one can commit today that none of us knows where we might come under this offence if the Amendment was accepted. This is a very technical matter, and that is why I am so grateful for the legal advice we have had from the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester.
  I am only objecting as a layman. So far I think only legal luminaries have spoken, and I see there is a certain amount of interest in what I am saying among laymen in the House. Why should we not also object? Not only because this is a new offence, but also because in these words there seems to be a further offence created. It is all very nice for the Law Officer to sit there with all the great ramifications of his office and knowing that he always has the hon. and learned Member for Gloucester behind him. But we have not that advantage. He says that, of course, it is almost inconceivable that if a man was convicted for one of these offences he might walk out of court and

  2631
  be picked up and convicted again. It is all very well for him to say that, but that is no defence. It does not get the poor person off. We know that this is increasingly liable to happen. That is why I think that some of the ordinary non-legal minds might be a little more anxious about what the Government really mean on this occasion.
  There is a further matter. I have not yet discovered why the Government suddenly wish to raise the original fine from £10 to £200. I think the hon. and learned Member said that it would take 20 days to get up to the £200. I am not guaranteeing his figures, but I think we can take them as accurate. Of course, I know very well that these are just maximum penalties. But I have always heard it laid down by good lawyers that you must not put the maximum too high or certain people are likely to inflict it almost invariably. Even if the Government have a strong case and insist on having this new Clause, surely they might reduce the £200 to £100. There is a terrific amount. of doubt about this. There is at present a tendency to pile up fines in this way, and we know the difficulties the ordinary individual has through getting into these troubles. I am deeply grateful, for I see the learned Solicitor-General is rather beaming at this suggestion. Having reduced the penalty to £100, we might now come down again to £50.
  Perhaps I may have some support for that. There are, really, a number of other matters in this Amendment which ought to have been raised, and I only wish it had been introduced at a. more convenient time when I could have gone into it more thoroughly. At present I
  have had only a few minutes at my disposal. Here we have the Government preparing a Bill and then putting down an Amendment enormously increasing the penalty and the risk to the individual, and adding one more offence to the list. They are increasing the risk to the ordinary individual, who does not try to cheat the Government as a rule. By prosecuting and making offences of this kind, the Government are driving people more and more to think that the law is always after them, instead of supporting the law, as most people wish to do. I feel that even if there is no great enthusiasm for my suggestion on the Front Bench opposite, it would be wise to adopt it on this occasion, not because of what I have said or what hon. Members of the Opposition may say, but because the most brilliant lawyer on the Government side has shown that they have no human excuse for putting forward this Amendment. For that reason, I would beg the Government to concede to the good sense and really skilful pleading of their supporter on the back bench and withdraw their Amendment. if that could be done it would give satisfaction to everyone and could do no harm. I believe that the ordinary back benchers opposite would get as much pleasure from it as I would. I would again ask the Government for the assurance which I seek, and I hope that I am going to get it.
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 197; Noes, 59.

  Division No. 227.]

  AYES.

  [9.9 p.m.

  Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)

  Burden, T. W.

  Deer, G.

  Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)

  Burke, W. A.

  de Freitas, Geoffrey

  Alpass, J. H.

  Byers, Frank

  Diamond, J.

  Austin, H. Lewis

  Carmichael, James

  Dobbie, W.

  Ayles, W. H.

  Chater, D.

  Dodds, N. N.

  Baird J.

  Chetwynd, G. R

  Driberg, T. E. N

  Barton, C.

  Clitherow, Dr R.

  Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.

  Battley, J R

  Cobb, F. A.

  Edwards, John (Blackburn)

  Bechervaise, A. E

  Cocks, F, S.

  Edwards, W. J. (Whitechape)

  Belcher, J. W.

  Collindridge, F

  Evans, S. N (Wednesbury)

  Benson, G.

  Collins, V. J.

  Farthing, W. J.

  Berry, H.

  Colman, Miss G. M.

  Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)

  Beswick, F.

  Cook, T. F.

  Follick, M.

  Blenkinsop, A

  Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G

  Fraser, T. (Hamilton)

  Blyton, W. R.

  Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camberwell, N.W.)

  Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)

  Boardman, H.

  Corlett, Dr. J.

  Gaitskell, H. T. N

  Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.

  Corvedale, Viscount

  Ganley, Mrs. C. S

  Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)

  Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir S

  George, Lady M Lloyd (Anglesey)

  Brook, D. (Halifax)

  Davies, Clement (Montgomery)

  Gibbins, J.

  Brown, T. J. (Ince)

  Davies, Edward (Burslem)

  Gibson, C. W.

  Bruce, Maj. D. W T

  Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

  Gilzean, A.

  Glanville, J. E. (Consett)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Sorensen, R. W.

  Gordon-Walker, P. C.

  Monslow, W.

  Soskice, Maj. Sir F

  Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)

  Morgan, Dr. H. B

  Sparks, J. A.

  Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)

  Morley, R.

  Stamford, W

  Gunter, R. J.

  Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)

  Steele, T.

  Guy, W. H.

  Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)

  Stephen, C.

  Hall, W. G.

  Mort, D. L.

  Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)

  Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.

  Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N.)

  Swingler, S.

  Hannan, W. (Maryhill)

  Nicholls, H R. (Stratford)

  Sylvester, G. O.

  Hardy, E. A.

  Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)

  Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

  Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J (Derby)

  Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)

  Hobson, C R.

  Noel-Buxton, Lady

  Thomas, Ivor (Keighley)

  Holman, P.

  Oldfield, W. H

  Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)

  Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)

  Oliver, G. H

  Thomas, George (Cardiff)

  House, G.

  Orbach, M.

  Thurtle, Ernest

  Hoy, J.

  Paget, R. T.

  Titterington, M. F

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Paling, Rt. Hon Wilfred (Wentworth)

  Ungoed-Thomas, L

  Hutchinson, H, L. (Rusholme)

  Palmer, A. M. F

  Vernon, Maj. W. F.

  Irving, W. J.

  Pargiter, G. A

  Viant, S. P.

  Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.

  Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)

  Walker, G. H.

  Janner, B.

  Paton, J. (Norwich)

  Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)

  Jay, D. P. T.

  Popplewell, E.

  Warbey, W. N.

  Jeger, G. (Winchester)

  Porter, G. (Leeds)

  Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)

  Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)

  Price, M. Philips

  Wells, P. L. (Faversham)

  Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)

  Proctor, W. T.

  Wells, W. T. (Walsall)

  Jones, J. H. (Bolton)

  Pursey, Cmdr. H

  Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W

  Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)

  Randall, H. E

  Wigg, Col. G. E.

  Keenan, W

  Ranger, J.

  Wilcock, Group-Capt C A B

  Kendall, W. D.

  Rankin, J.

  Wilkes, L.

  Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E

  Rees-Williams, D. R

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Kinley, J.

  Reeves, J.

  Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)

  Kirby, B. V.

  Reid, T. (Swindon)

  Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)

  Lavers, S.

  Rhodes, H.

  Williams, D. J. (Neath)

  Lee, F (Hulme)

  Richards, R

  Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)

  Leonard, W.

  Robens, A.

  Williams, Rt. Hon. T (Don Valley)

  Leslie, J. R.

  Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)

  Williams, W. R. (Heston)

  Lindsay, K. M. (Comb'd Eng Univ.)

  Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)

  Williamson, T

  Longden, F

  Rogers, G. H. R

  Willis, E.

  McAdam, W.

  Ross, William (Kilmarnock)

  Wills, Mrs. E. A

  McGovern, J.

  Royle, C.

  Wilson, J. H.

  McKay, J. (Wallsend)

  Segal, Dr. S

  Woodburn, A

  McKinlay, A. S.

  Sharp, Granville

  Yates, V. F

  McLeavy, F.

  Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)

  Manning, Mrs. L (Epping)

  Simmons, C J

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Marquand, H. A.

  Skinnard, F. W.

  Mr. Pearson and Mr. Snow.

  Middleton, Mrs. L

  Solley, L. J

  NOES.

  Agnew, Cmdr. P G

  Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V.

  Neven-Spence, Sir B

  Amory, D. Heathcoat

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col Rt. Hon. Sir C

  Nield, B. (Chester)

  Bennett, Sir P.

  Hogg, Hon. Q

  Pitman, I. J.

  Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells)

  Hope, Lord J

  Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

  Bossom, A. C

  Howard, Hon. A

  Prior-Palmer, Brig. O

  Bower, N.

  Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)

  Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)

  Boyd-Carpenter, J. A

  Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)

  Renton, D.

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W

  Hutchison, Col. J. R, (Glasgow. C.)

  Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)

  Carson, E.

  Jeffreys, General Sir G

  Smith, E. P (Ashford)

  Challen, C

  Kerr, Sir J. Graham

  Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.

  Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G

  Langford-Holt, J.

  Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)

  Conant, Maj. R. J. E

  Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H

  Thorp, Lt.-Col. R A F

  Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E

  Low, Brig. A. R. W.

  Walker-Smith, D.

  Cuthbert, W. N.

  Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.

  Ward, Hon. G. R

  Darling, Sir W. Y.

  Mackeson, Brig. H. R

  Wheatley, Colonel M. J

  Davidson, Viscountess

  Maclay, Hon. J. S.

  Williams, C (Torquay)

  Digby, S. W.

  Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)

  York, C.

  Dower, E. L. G (Caithness)

  Manningham-Buller, R E

  Drewe, C.

  Marlowe, A. A. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P M

  Marshall, D. (Bodmin)

  Mr. Studholme and

  Grimston, R V

  Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T

  Major Ramsay.

  Question put, and agreed to.

  The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, to leave out "false."
  This is virtually a drafting Amendment. It alleviates the position so far as a defendant is concerned. It provides that he does not commit an offence in making a false statement unless it is false in a material particular. The mere fact that the statement is false is not enough:
  2634
  it has to be false in something which can be fairly described as important.
  Mr. C. Williams: I am not very sure about this Amendment. It is a slight improvement, but I think it would be better if we left out "false" and did not have the other part. I am unable to give a legal definition of a "material" offence. I do not know how far it goes. It might

  2635
  be a little lie, or it might be a slip where £1 million might be put in instead of £100,000, a slip like that might have enormous consequences. It might be quite unintentional. I would like to have an explanation of how far "material particular" goes. Many of our constituents may have to return these forms, and it is wrong that we should not be in a position to instruct them on the matter. We ought to be able to tell them straight away without having to go to the Minister exactly what "a material particular" means. Until I know what it means it would seem rather as though we were not qualifying ourselves to explain this law. Of course, I recognise that the Government are only trying to make the law clearer. I hope the Minister will give me an explanation; otherwise, I may have to conclude that the Government do not know the answer.
  Mr. Challen: My hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) has made a material point. When we examine the Amendment, it appears very doubtful. Let us suppose that a statement is made knowingly or recklessly by an individual; why should he not be guilty of an offence? The proposal in the Amendment is that although he has made a false statement knowingly, he can be held guilty of an offence only if the statement is false in a material particular. It is difficult sometimes to know where the quality of being material begins and ends. My hon. Friend has made a very serious point. I suggest that the Amendment should not be proceeded with and that the matter should be left as it is. If an individual deliberately says something which is false, one would imagine that that would be an offence.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 12, after "returns," insert:
  "which is false in a material particular."— [The Solicitor-General.]

  STATISTICS OF TRADE BILL

    CLAUSE 6.—(Duty to notify undertakings to Board of Trade or other competent authority.)
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I beg to move, in page 3, line 42, to leave out "fourteen," and to insert "twenty-one."
    I would like to ask you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, whether, in speaking to this
    2636
    Amendment, I might refer also to the one which immediately follows it on the Paper, in page 3, line 42, after "date," insert "of publication."
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): Certainly. I think that will be for the convenience of the House.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: The Clause to which this Amendment relates lays it down that a return must be given to the Board of Trade, within 14 days after the publication of an advertisement in the appropriate newspapers, not only as to everybody who is in the particular industry, but also giving any particulars that may be specified about each undertaking. In considering these Amendments, I think the attention of the House should be drawn to the penalties provided in Subsections (3) and (4) of the Clause. These two Amendments are designed, first, to help industry, and, secondly, to cover a point which I am certain the Board of Trade will accept, which is to insert in line 42, after "date" the words "of publication." In the first place, 14 days is not a very long period, particularly in these times of shortage of labour, paper, and so on, and it seems to me that 21 days would be much more satisfactory. The publication of trade periodicals, through no fault of anybody, is often held up. It is equally true that many businessmen, particularly small businessmen, read their trade periodicals only over the weekend. I suggest, therefore, that a period of 14 days does not give industry an adequate chance to comply with the requirements of the Board of Trade.
    The second Amendment, which is to insert the words "of publication," is of considerable importance. I think I am right in saying that all Board of Trade advertisements of this nature would bear upon them, underneath the signature of the person who signed them, the date. As I read the Subsection, it would be possible for the date of the advertisement to be the date underneath the signature, or the date of issue from the Board of Trade, but even if that be not so, and if the date of the advertisement refers to the date of the newspaper, that does not necessarily mean the date of publication. Very often trade periodicals are dated considerably in advance of the date on which they appear. Consequently, it would be a considerable clarification if the provision were

    2637
    made to refer to the date of publication. For all those reasons, I hope the Government will be willing to accept the Amendments.
    Mr. William Shepherd: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The problem we face is to strike a balance between a time that will not be too long, which would encourage procrastination, and not too short for the purpose of seeing the advertisement, satisfying oneself that one has the correct information, and sending it to the Board of Trade. Hon. Members on this side think that the proper time to allow is not 14 days, as is provided in the Bill, but 21 clays. There may be good reason for believing that the method which has been chosen to acquaint people with the requirement to provide this information is not by any means the best one, and it may well be that many people do not read their trade journals or subscribe to them. There is every reason to believe it will take some time for the necessity for this information to be sent to the Board of Trade to percolate through all the levels of small business men. Therefore, we suggest that to increase the number of days from 14 to 21 would be in the interests of trades generally.
    As to the second point, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for New Forest and Christchurch (Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre) has queried what is meant by "date of the advertisement" in the Bill. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will clarify that point, because there is room for considerable doubt on it. There is, moreover, a very long delay in many cases between the date on which it is intended to insert an advertisement and the date on which the advertisement appears. Many London newspapers insert advertisements five or six weeks after they have been submitted. Therefore, we feel it is essential that the Amendment should be accepted in order to avoid confusion.
    9.30 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): I should have thought that 14 days would have been long enough to enable any trader to identify himself in an advertisement issued by the Board of Trade, and for him to collect together what are, after all, a very
    2638
    few particulars, and to forward them. But there is every desire on the part of the Government to be reasonable. We would not like unduly to handicap any trader who, through no fault of his own, was prevented from seeing an advertisement when it appeared. Therefore, if there is a strong feeling that this period ought to be lengthened to 21 days, we are prepared to accept the Amendment.
    With regard to the second point, again I should have thought that the date of the advertisement was sufficient, but, if the adding of the extra words will give the clarification which hon. Members opposite say they will give—I do not think that there is a great deal in it, and it is certainly not a subject on which we are prepared to spend a great deal of time arguing—we will accept the Amendment.
    Mr. C. Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman and the Government for giving way on this point, which will make a considerable difference to innumerable small traders, and I particularly thank the Government most sincerely on behalf of those people whom I happen to represent.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 42, after "date," insert, "of pubcation"—[Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre.]
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: I beg to move, in page 4, line 1, to leave out Subsection (2). This Amendment raises once again the point which we have discussed on previous occasions, namely, our objection to the system of delegation. We still believe that it would have been far better to have made one Department responsible for all these various activities in order to prevent overlapping. The Parliamentary Secretary, in answer to the last Amendment, which he was good enough to accept, really acknowledged the strength of our case by the words he used. He said that, surely, 14 days are enough to enable anyone to realise whether or not they are covered by an advertisement issued by the Board of Trade. But, under this Clause, it is not going to be an advertisement issued by the Board of Trade; it is going to be an advertisement issued by any one of some 20 or 21 Departments to which the Board of Trade, for their own purposes, may see fit to delegate their powers. Although, as a result of the Amendment which the Gov-

    2639
    ernment have been good enough to accept, the situation is a little better than it was, nevertheless, those Amendments do not get over the fundamental objection which we have to delegating and dispersing authority, instead of concentrating the work in one centralised department.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Sir Stafford Cripps): I can quite understand the argument which has been put forward on this main issue, but that, of course, was decided by the House when we were dealing with Subsection (3) of Clause 3. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that, once having decided that we can delegate the function for the collection of material, and the advertisements which go with that function, it would be most unwise to split the authority between two departments, and to make one responsible for collection and the other responsible for informing people that the collection will take place. I am sure that that would not be satisfactory. We must either not delegate at all, or delegate all the functions in connection with a particular circumstance. I am sure that, from that point of view, the hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that, having passed the earlier Subsection, we must keep this one in.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Having passed the earlier one, and having heard the arguments on it, we had some hopes that, in view of the interval which elapsed, the right hon. and learned Gentleman might have reconsidered his attitude. Those hopes have been disappointed. But there is this further point which troubles me a little. Each one of these 21 Government Departments to whom the powers be delegated, may operate under this Clause. If a person does not' respond to the advertisement and fails to give the particulars required under Subsection (3), that person will be guilty of an offence. I hope it will be made clear in the advertisement when it is inserted by any Ministry other than the Board of Trade, that it is inserted for the purposes of this Measure and by a particular Government authority on behalf of the Board of Trade under this Clause, so that it is brought to the attention of people that if they do not pay regard to the contents of the notice they will be liable to punishment. If we can have an assurance that that will be done,
    2640
    no matter whether the advertisement is inserted by the Board of Trade or by any other department, it will go some way towards relieving our anxiety about the present Subsection.
    Sir S. Cripps: Certainly we shall link up the advertisements with the Bill. It will be absolutely necessary, in order to show that it is under this Clause that the advertisements are being issued and the information is requested. The hon. and learned Gentleman, I am sum, can accept that assurance.
    Amendment negatived.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 4, line 13, to leave out "false."
    This Amendment effects in this Clause precisely the same change as a similar Amendment effected in Clause 4. In other words, it provides that a person shall not be guilty of an offence in making a false statement unless that statement can be said to be one about something which matters. When we were discussing the last Amendment, hon. Members opposite asked what was meant by "false in a material particular." It is impossible to predict in all cases what would be considered material. It is a question of fact in each case. I can, perhaps, translate the words "false in a material particular" by saying they must be false in some respect which, from a commonsense point of view, can he said to be a matter of some importance. In other words, it is not a statement which is false in some triviality, but a statement which is false in something which is of some importance. I ask the House, having accepted the last Amendment, to accept this one also.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 4, line 14, after "aforesaid," insert:
    "which is false in a material particular."—[The Solicitor-
    General.]

    CLAUSE 8.—(Advisory committees.)
    Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: I beg to move, in page 4, line 40, after "businesses," to insert:
    "and including representatives of such trade associations or other recognised bodies as appear to the competent authority sufficiently to represent the interests of separate undertakings or of the various trades, and business concerned."
    The purpose of this Amendment is to recognise in some part of the Bill the

    2641
    organised opinion in industry. It is customary to take into consideration the collective representations made by the employers' organisations. I believe that point was thought to be so obvious that no special words were incorporated in the first drafting of this Bill in order to refer to it, but I believe that the time is coming when joint consultation is going to take place regularly, and, if one looks ahead in industry, one can see the early signs of this happening. That does not mean, of course, that the management will shelve the responsibility of the employer to do such things as carrying through the making of returns, as necessitated by this Bill. But it does indicate that the employee has a very material interest in the way industry is run; he is the person who actually has to collect the figures which have to be returned under the Bill. Therefore, if he is brought into the picture it is reasonable for the employees' organisations as well as the employers' organisations to have some say at the top level; for instance, in the way in which the forms themselves are designed. In the case of Income Tax forms, I believe they were improved by means of representations from the lower levels of the Civil Service.
    This Amendment should appeal to the President of the Board of Trade, because he is reported to have referred, on one occasion, to the need for the employees in industry to have the opportunity of taking responsibility; otherwise, he said, they would not fit themselves for positions of responsibility at the top level of industry at a later date. That being a principle he himself has announced, I think he should agree to this Amendment without any difficulty. There is a later Amendment in the name of my right hon. and learned Friend which seeks, to some extent, to do what I seek to do by means of this Amendment, although that later Amendment does not go quite far enough. If co-operation is sought the statistics themselves will be produced more rapidly, with the possibility of them being produced more accurately by the inclusion in the Bill of some such provision as the one I now propose. The whole strength of this Bill, if I may so term it, depends on the co-operation which it is hoped will be fostered between the Government Departments which have to collect the figures and statistics and the employers and employees in industry. By accept-
    2642
    ing this Amendment the President of the Board of Trade would go a long way to showing industry that co-operation is sought.
    The point was thought to be so obvious that it was not included when the Bill was first devised, and for that reason I believe that an official approach was made to the F.B.I. to see whether, in some measure, the ideas aimed at would be practicable. But surely, it must be considered that consultation with any one organisation, such as the F.B.I., is quite inadequate. If there had been wider consultation by the officials in the earlier stages, this Amendment would have been included in the Bill in the first instance. In industry it is necessary to provide some sort of protection, because it would be possible for bureaucracy to encroach unduly on industry and to make unreasonable demands. If there were demands of that sort, and if there were provision for collective representation, then a reasoned, well authenticated case could be stated, if necessary to the President of the Board of Trade himself, which would result in the necessary improvements taking place, in the procedure of collecting the statistics.
    I do not think the objections to this Amendment are well founded. In Committee no reasonable objection was raised. Even the Parliamentary Secretary said that, in principle, he agreed with an Amendment which I at that time sought to incorporate in Clause i. If a matter is acceptable in principle, it only needs a little ingenuity to carry out that principle in practice. This Amendment will achieve the desired end without drawing the Clause too narrowly and thereby restricting the officials in carrying out their duties; yet, on the other hand, it would not be drawn too widely so that there would be no encouragement for those who will have to administer the Bill to consult with recognised bodies.
    9.45 P.m.
    Reference was made at an earlier stage to the need to collect information from those people visiting this country by air—arriving and departing by air. Unless officials are to be placed at every airport and emergency landing ground it may be that the employees of the airway companies or airway Corporations will have to obtain statistical information under this Bill. They may find some difficulties, unless adequate provision is made for

    2643
    them to state a case, if necessary, at a higher level to their organised association of employees. Those difficulties may persist in a way to cause considerable inconvenience to those coming to and leaving this country by air. I appeal, therefore, to the President of the Board of Trade to give such consideration as he can to the wording of this Amendment to see if he can adopt it as it is, or, at least, to adopt the principle; and if he wishes other words to be inserted for the purpose, perhaps, he could draft them before the Bill goes forward to another place.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: I beg to second the Amendment.
    We on this side of the House feel that it is desired by the Board of Trade to ensure collaboration between trade associations and that Department, and we look with some doubt upon the wording of Clause 8, which says:
    "The Board of Trade shall arrange for the appointment of one or more committees, including persons engaged in, or otherwise conversant with the conditions of, various trades and businesses."
    That is a very vague statement, and it may permit the President of the Board of Trade to appoint individuals who have no standing whatsoever in the trade associations to which they belong. Surely, if one wants to create within the trades themselves confidence in the representative bodies appointed by the Minister, those bodies should be allowed to have the opportunity of submitting names from which the Minister can select various individuals. I think that the Amendment will enhance the confidence traders and industrialists generally will feel in this Bill.
    Sir S. Cripps: I think there is some little, confusion as to what this Amendment really means. The hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. W. Shepherd) has just said he thinks the existing words are vague and may enable me to do something of which he does not approve. But I would draw his attention to the fact that the existing words will remain. They are not altered. So I should still have the power to do what seem to him undesirable things.
    Mr. Shepherd: But the words will be qualified.
    Sir S. Cripps: Added to. I should be able to do still more undesirable things if
    2644
    this Amendment were inserted. But I think that there is confusion in the mind of the hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. G. Cooper) who moved the Amendment. There are two very different functions here. One is to get an advisory committee which advises on the forms and instructions for the taking of a census and on the approach to the problem. If the main advisory committee were to have on it representatives of every industry in this country we should have a very large parliament indeed. There would have to be 600 or 700 people 'to give the sort of representation suggested by this Amendment. The people whom we have to get on to the Central Advisory Committee are the statesmen of industry, who will give the general advice. They are the type of people who are, for instance, members of the existing advisory body, people who represent the Federation of British Industries, the National Union of Manufacturers, the shipping companies, contractors, the cotton and chemical industries and a number of other things, and who are not representatives of separate industries and trade associations That would really be quite impossible
    Therefore, we use these general terms in order to cover this general class of people who must, necessarily, have some acquaintance with various trades and businesses, in order that their services may be of value to the Board, and the much more detailed consultations take place in the ordinary way through the departmental channels. We must have a small body if we want to get efficient working, as we have experienced in the past, and we must get that help through the most suitable persons, not only people from particular industries acceptable to those industries, but people who are acceptable, broadly, to the industries of the whole country. If we were to take on these added people—because they are additional, including representatives from trade associations or other recognised bodies—it would spread the net so wide that it would make it quite impossible to set up a reasonable committee to perform the functions that are here intended.
    Mr. Cooper: Would the President allow me? In the Clause, it is indicated that there could be more than one committee, and, surely, it would be proper to assume that there would be more than one section of industry concerned with those separate committees?
    Sir S. Cripps: No, it would not be the intention to have a separate committee for each section of industry. That is not the idea at all. When we come to the question of the proper form of instructions for taking the census, we want a general view of the situation, and these are the committees which can give that general view rather than particular representatives of particular industries. I hope that, with that explanation, my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment.
    Mr. C. Williams: I do not think the President of the Board of Trade has really been as fair as he usually is to the mover of this Amendment. Clearly, the hon. Gentleman desired most sincerely to bring into consultation with the main body concerned in this matter some representatives of various industries. To add words from the third line of his Amendment and widen their scope would, I quite realise, lead towards too big a committee, but I do not think that was the hon. Gentleman's intention. His intention really was to ensure that there were people on the main consultative body who would be directly in touch with industry. That is what we want, and it is what the President wants. Both sides of the House agree to this, and all we want now is that it should be laid down somewhere in the Bill that there should be these consultations, not with representatives of every single trade or separate undertaking, but with representative people, some of whom would be suitable to speak for some of the trades and industries. We are all aiming at the same thing, and I think it is rather a pity that the Amendment which, in principle, is completely sound, has been turned aside by the Government. We are still dependent purely on the good will of the Government.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I beg to move, in page 4, line 41, to leave out from "authority," to the end of the line.
    I think it may be for the convenience of the House, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if we could discuss this Amendment together with the next Amendment, in line 42, and the next three Opposition Amendments in line 44.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think that is agreeable to the House.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: This Amendment and the following Amendments deal with a separate point, which I will refer to first. Under the Clause an advisory committee can only advise a competent authority which is an authority other than the Board of Trade, to whom functions have been delegated under Clause 3. That means that the advisory committee will, in no circumstances, be able to advise a competent authority acting on its own initiative under Clause of the Bill. I would be interested to know why these advisory committees will be allowed to advise only competent authorities to whom powers have been delegated by the Board of Trade with regard to the taking of the census, and the benefit of their advice is not to be given to, or received by, any of the other 21 Government Departments seeking information under Clause 1? The effect of these two Amendments which, I hope, the Minister will be able to accept, will not be to limit the functions of the advisory committees at all, but will enable them, should their advice be required. to give that advice to any competent authority under Clause 1. I think it is desirable that that power should exist. There is really not much limit to what a competent authority under Clause 1 can seek in the way of information. It will be just as important that the forms which shopkeepers and small and big firms are required to fill in, under Clause r, should be as correctly designed, and as simple, as the forms required to be filled in for the census under Clause 3.
    10.0 p.m.
    With regard to the other three Amendments to which I referred, the first is consequential, and the last two are expanding the objects on which the advisory committees can express opinions. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate that the addition of these words does assist the purposes of this Bill by enabling the advisory committees to give proper advice on all matters of this kind affecting the taking of statistics, and the presentation of the summary of statistics, when they are obtained, which is very important. I hope that, by putting it in that way, and as shortly as that, I have made the points clear, and that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendments.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I beg to second the Amendment.
    I would only like to emphasise one part of the arguments which my hon. and learned Friend has put. That is, with regard to the purposes for which these -advisory committees are to be established. I do think that, to a very great extent, the practical benefits of what the country is going to gain, and of what industry in particular is going to gain by this Bill, must depend on the constitution and effect of these advisory committees. During the committee stage, I think it was the Parliamentary Secretary who said that he had no objection to these committees summarising and presenting the statistics obtained through a census. My hon. Friends and myself have put these Amendments down for the purpose of carrying out what the Parliamentary Secretary said he had no objection to, and which we consider to be of very great value. If we do in this way extend the purposes and the tasks of these advisory committees, I think we are going to do something definite towards fulfilling what the President of the Board of Trade said two or three times in his Second Reading speech, namely, that it was the task of the Government to ensure that industry and the community as a whole went forward together and were joined in mutual confidence. The tie which is going to effect that mutual confidence will be these advisory committees. If they are bodies which are responsible not only for the preparation of reports and issuing the necessary instructions, but for the summarising and presentation of statistics, then indeed I do think a bond has been forged which can be of great value. 'Therefore, I hope that the Government will find themselves able to accept these Amendments.
    Sir S. Cripps: As the hon. Member said, we undertook, during the Committee stage, to look at this matter again to see whether we could not introduce some Amendment which would broadly accomplish what I think were the desires of both sides of the House. As a result of that, we have put forward the proposal on page 4, line 44, to insert, at the end of this Subsection, the words:
    "and of advising the Board or any other competent authority, with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees."
    2648
    It will be observed that, by inserting the words, "or any other competent authority" we have got away from the limitation of "competent authorities" to which the functions have been delegated. In other words, they can advise with regard to such other matters under the Bill. They are now, therefore, no longer limited to Clause 3.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: Surely it is only under Clause 3, if my recollection is right, that power is given to refer matters to the advisory committees. There is no power under Clause 1.
    Sir S. Cripps: Power is being given by these words which I am proposing should be put into the Bill. They are given the powers by these words which are added:
    "advising the Board or any other competent authority with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees."
    Those are perfectly general words which enable the committees set up to consider any matter under the Act referred to them by anybody, such as the Board of Trade or any other competent authority. We have more than covered the points which were raised in presenting this group of Amendments. We have already observed that we have not made it compulsory to refer these matters, but we have made it permissive to refer any matters upon which the authorities consider that the committees can help them and it will be the intention, as it was always the intention in the past, to utilise these committees to the utmost in order to get close cooperation betwen the administration and industry in the working out of all these matters. They can have referred to them questions which may arise on the presentation of results or any matters of that kind where they Will be very helpful. I hope, therefore', that the House will add the words which are in my name and which will ensure that the whole of the proposition put forward by Members of the Opposition will be met.
    Mr. Cooper: Would the President of the Board of Trade give consideration. to the composition of the Board? He has gone so far to satisfy the point raised in the Committee stage, and I would ask him to think again on the way in which the Committees are actually brought together.
    Sir S. Cripps: We are constantly thinking how we can form the best committees and we shall continue doing so.
    Mr. Cooper: Could it not be specified in the Bill?
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has tried to meet the points that have been raised, but I am not quite sure that the preventing of what we had in mind is as clear as it might be. Would the right hon. Gentleman consider inserting the words in our Amendments to page 4, line 44? I suggest for that reason it is desirable that it should be appreciated that one of the functions of these committees may be to advise on the summarising and the presentation of the statistics obtained, and, if these words are inserted as a sort of signpost it may well be we will get certain Government Departments consulting the advisory committee which otherwise they would not do.
    Sir S. Cripps: The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller) is aware, I am sure, of the great danger of the ejusdem generis rule in these matters. If one thing is mentioned the courts arc liable to interpret it as limited to that thing or things of a similar nature, and thus it is better from our point of view to leave the words in a general form so as to cover anything we have suggested, rather than adding to these general words some specific thing which may be hereafter determined and argued by the courts. The whole of that phrase was, in fact, limited to that specific thing or to something of a similar nature. I think that this will be the sounder form to cover the whole generality of the things we want.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: I should like to get an assurance from the President of the Board of Trade that these committees will, in fact, be asked to assist in the forms and in the summarising and presentation of the statistics. As far as industry is concerned, the summarising and presentation will be of enormous value, but it may well be the form of presentation or summary which the Board of Trade or another authority may determine is not the form in which the trade would like to see these figures presented. It therefore seems important that these Committees should have the opportunity of saying how these figures are to be presented
    I want to raise a further point about a rather disturbing remark made by the President of the Board of Trade a short
    2650
    time ago when he indicated that this was to be a general committee for all industries. I do not think that that would be by any means satisfactory because in the drawing up of these forms, in indicating the type of statistics and in summarising, one needs people from each industry to which the forms are directed Surely a general committee drawn from a few individuals who are not representatives of any particular industries will not fulfil the purpose which is intended by those who have moved these Amendments. What we want is a committee which is representative of each individual industry and which can advise the Board of Trade or any other competent authority as to the type of form to be sent out, the type of summary to prepare and any other details which affect each individual trade. I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will be able to assure the House that he is not intending to administer this very difficult Bill by means of a committee which is suitable only for fairly general practice, but that he will see that a committee is established which knows the needs of individual industries and is capable of advising them.
    Mr. C. Williams: I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's contention that we want to ensure in some way that there shall be a method whereby particular trades may have some knowledge of and give assistance with regard to what is going on. These orders may be very wide and as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, his own Amendment makes a provision in general terms. They are very general terms with a very wide meaning indeed. In fact, they are so wide that I think they are giving the Government enormous powers. Whether those powers will be used, as we all hope, for the purposes of the other Amendments we are discussing at the present moment I cannot say, but from the point of view of someone who would wish to see these committees functioning as well as they possibly can, I am not sure that it is advisable to extend the powers so widely. I should have liked to see the position circumscribed in the manner suggested by my hon. Friend. It seems as if we were giving the Government completely wide and indefinite powers, which I know they love, but which are generally very unsatisfactory for those upon whom they exercise them.
    10.15 p.m.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: I am not sure that there is a great deal between us. I, would remind the President of the Board of Trade that when this was discussed in Committee, the Parliamentary Secretary said:
    "We want to make the best use of the advisory committees. It is the wording of the next Amendment Which I find objectionable, the particular word being "interpreting." We are seeking power to obtain statistics which will subsequently be presented. It will not be part of our object to interpret those statistics, although we may consider breaking them down to some extent."
    It the purpose of that Amendment is to secure the advice of advisory committees of how these statistics shall be summarised and presented,"
    That is the point—
    "then I have nothing at all to say against it and I am quite prepared to consider a form of words between now and the Report stage and to put down an Amendment which will give satisfaction to hon. Members who are responsible for this Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C, 25th March, 1947; col. 98.]
    The only thing I am in doubt about is whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment goes quite as far as the Parliamentary Secretary. As the House can see, in our Amendment, in page 4, line 44, we have adopted the words used by the Parliamentary Secretary, seeking to add:
    "and the summarising and presentation of the statistics so obtained."
    If we can be certain that the advisory committees, as a matter of practice, will be consulted not merely as regards the form of the statistics, which we all agree is important, but will also have, if not a statutory right, an administrative right to be consulted about their presentations, then, if we can have that assurance, it will go most of the way to meet the point we have very much in mind.
    Sir S. Cripps: We have made this as broad as possible to cover consultations on every possible point. We do not limit it to the mere point mentioned during the Committee stage. I am sure it is wiser to leave it in that very broad form, to enable the administration to have cooperation on all matters with these committees, and that is the intention.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment made; In page 4, line 44, at end, insert:
    2652
    "and of advising the Board or any other competent authority with regard to such other matters under this Act as may be referred to those committees."—[Sir S. Cripps.]

    CLAUSE 9.—(Disclosure of information.)
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 5, line 17, to leave out "criminal proceedings," and to insert:
    "proceedings for an offence under this Act."
    This Amendment raises the question of whether information which has been obtained under this Bill should be available for any criminal proceedings, or only for criminal proceedings under the Bill. Hon. Members who were present during the Committee proceedings will remember that this subject was very fully debated, and that I sought to deploy the arguments which could be advanced against this Amendment. As the discussion went on, the contrary point of view was strongly urged, in particular by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). At the end of the day, although I expressed myself as not being convinced by the arguments advanced against the point of view I put forward, I said that I would like to have an opportunity to reconsider the matter in case I should think it proper to change the point of view I had expressed. Since the Committee stage we have carefully reconsidered the arguments which were advanced, in particular by the two hon. Members to whom I have referred, and we think we ought to accede to those arguments. For those reasons we have put down the Amendment, which is in almost identical terms with theirs
    The effect of it is that information obtained will be available only for use under the Act. The case put forward was that if it was available for any criminal proceedings, that would constitute an invasion of a principle that when information was obtained from a person, unless it was voluntarily given it should not be used against that person. The Amendment does not quite correspond with that because it prevents that information being used in any criminal proceedings. I still do not think that that was an adequate reason for the Amendment. It seems to me that perhaps some importance should be attached to the specific character of the Bill and to the

    2653
    actual circumstances in which the information will be required. There are a number of precedents for such Clauses, both in the amended and in the unamended forms, going back, for example, to the Livestock Industry Act, 1937, and to other Acts about that time. Equally, precedents can be quoted on the other side. The question whether one should adopt one form of precedent or the other admits of a good deal to be said on either side. On the whole, we feel that the point of view put forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman was right. It impressed the Committee very much, and so did the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne. I hope the House will now think that the Amendment as we have put it down meets the point of view which was obviously strongly felt by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The Solicitor-General has now confessed that he was defeated by the combined operations of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe) and his hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). 1n the speech he has just made he appeared rather to want to carry on a rearguard action. It seemed that he was moving his Amendment in the sort of spirit that hoped that, at the last moment, the Opposition would turn round and defeat it, and that he would be happy to go into the same Lobby with us and defeat the Amendment.
    I am glad that at long last the Government have recognised the force of the arguments which were put forward in favour of this Amendment. I raised the point on the Second Reading of the unwarrantable and unwarranted extension of the use that could be made of information obtained upon a census, an extension over previous Acts of Parliament. I hoped that the battle would he continued. I had not the good fortune to be on that Standing Committee, but I gather from what I have been able to read that the battle was indeed continued and was fast and furious. I read the arguments of the Solicitor-General with astonishment and amazement.
    I hope that it is clear now that, after the acceptance of the Amendment, there is no substance at all in the contention which was argued that information obtained from a person under this Act
    2654
    could be used in any other prosecution than a prosecution for an offence under the Act. That is always what we have been seeking to limit it to, and there is nothing to choose now between the Amendment put forward by the hon. and learned Member and the Amendment which we put upon the Order Paper.
    Mr. Marlowe: The learned Solicitor-General rather understated the matter when he said that the view he took before was that there was a certain amount to be said for one view and a certain amount to be said for the other. As a matter of fact, the view he took was the very contrary. He put up a very strenuous argument against the Amendment. I: he spoke at rather unnecessary length on his Amendment this evening, it was because he had to make his apologia for the attitude which he had taken up before. In future, perhaps hon. Members opposite, in spite of the derision which has sometimes been expressed among them, may now begin to understand that there is some use in a Parliamentary Opposition. The Solicitor-General will do well to bear that in mind and to realise that some of the suggestions that come from this side of the House are very often of greater utility and validity than those which come from the Government side.
    Mr. Challen: I do not wish to detract from the credit that has been given to. my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Brighton (Mr. Marlowe) in regard to this Amendment, because he and I discussed this matter with much help to me on the Committee stage, but it does so happen that the Amendment referred to was moved by me, and the argument, which was strenuous, was pursued throughout the Committee Although at the time I felt we were making little headway, it appeared towards the end of the Debate that the Solicitor-General was, at any rate, sympathetic with our point of view. The point which I stressed was by way of an analogy to the kind of case under, say, the Bankruptcy Acts, where information is compulsorily obtained in an examination in bankruptcy, and it is subsequently impossible for any prosecution to take place under, for example, the Larceny Acts based upon the statements compulsorily obtained, or indeed at all. The general principle underlying protective legislation of that nature is that information compulsorily obtained, and

    2655
    not voluntarily given, is protected. That is the point behind the ordinary,-police-man's caution, where information is voluntarily given. In the case before us the information is compulsorily obtained. We endeavoured to rub that point home, and it is extremely gratifying to feel that, on reflection, the Solicitor-General has realised that, on balance, the case that we made was correct.
    Mr. C. Williams: I think we ought to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Challen) on his success. Apparently, it was my hon. Friend who set the ball rolling and who, with the able assistance of others, including the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), has enabled the Government to take out of the Bill the word "criminal." I cannot imagine why the Government are always so anxious to try to make crimes. In this instance there is no reason for labelling the unfortunate people as criminals when what they commit are, at the worst, misdemeanours. they are being forced, compelled, and bullied, by the President of the Board of Trade and others, to make these returns, and in almost every case they will have to make the returns with considerable and wasteful expenditure of time and energy. I do not think it is ever very wise to say. "I told you so" when one has a repent. ant sinner before one, and as the Government seem to be fairly repentant on this occasion, I will merely say how glad I am that they have not persisted in their endeavour to label harmless citizens as criminals simply because they have not filled up forms quite as the Government would have liked them to do. I congratulate the Government on this small sign 'of a greater kindliness, and what I will call this sign of progressive civilisation, in not wishing to label people as criminals whenever they have the smallest chance to do so. For that reason, even if any hon. Members on their own back benches wish to vote against the Government. I shall support the Government.
    Amendment agreed to.
    10.30 p.m.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I beg to move, in page 5, line 19, to leave out "for the purposes of a census."
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I suggest it would /be for the convenience
    2656
    of the House if we discussed this Amendment and those which follow and which are consequential.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: That course, I think, will be convenient, although the Amendments really fall into two separate categories. I shall deal generally with the Amendments which we propose in Subsection (2) of Clause 9. That Subsection is one which the House ought to consider carefully. Its effect is that no matter what restrictions on the disclosure of information might have been imposed by other enactments of this House, and however strict those restrictions were, they are by this Subsection all taken away. It is all levelled down to a restriction on the disclosure contained in this Bill, except that in particular cases where the Board of Trade think that greater restrictions should be imposed, they can do so by Order in Council. If this House has thought fit, after careful consideration, to impose greater strictness on the disclosure of information than is contained in this Measure, I think it is wrong for those restrictions automatically to be removed. It would be much better to put it the other way round, to let the restrictions remain and provide that they can be removed on a case being made out by the President of the Board of Trade. That is the first point covered by the Amendments to Subsection (2). The second point is that the Subsection is limited to information obtained for purposes of a census. Why does it not extend to information obtained under Clause r? I should like an answer to that question. The Board of Trade is taking power to impose greater restrictions than those contained in the Bill, but only greater restrictions on the disclosure of information obtained for the purpose of a census. It may be just as important to impose those greater restrictions on information obtained by any one of the 21 Government Departments under Clause I. In this instance we are suggesting that the President of the Board of Trade should take greater powers for protecting information obtained under the very wide powers contained in this Measure.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: I beg to second the Amendment.
    Sir S. Cripps: There are, as the hon. and learned Gentleman has said, two points involved here and I shall deal with

    2657
    them in the order in which he dealt with them. If the Acts which have at various times over the last century imposed restrictions on the disclosure of information were all extended and recently brought up to date by Parliament, I think there would be quite a strong argument for the course suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman. But, where many of them may be very much in the past, and very obscure, it is extremely difficult to make them apply automatically to these restrictions because, in effect, many people in industry and elsewhere know nothing, or very little, of them at all. There may be some quite incidental Section in some old Act, which deals with a restriction which nobody considers wise or necessary today. There could be an opposite course under the Clause to the one which the hon. and learned Gentleman is suggesting. We have taken power to impose those provisions which are known to appear in an Act of Parliament with which everyone is familiar. We cannot be certain what the others may be. But, the hon. and learned Gentleman can rely on us to protect the persons who are asked to provide figures. We shall take every reasonable and proper step to protect them by carrying this forward.
    The hon. and learned Member asks, secondly, why this is restricted to the census. As regards the general disclosure of information, that is covered in the Clause which deals with the foregoing provisions of this Measure generally. We feel that that gives adequate protection where there is not going to be a wide publication, associated with the census. The object of the census is to get detailed figures which will be published, and it is necessary, therefore, to have a greater degree of protection for people where these figures are published in great detail as against cases in which my Department is getting figures not for publication in anything like the same detail. The hon. and learned Gentleman can rely on the persons dealing with this matter under Clause 9 (1) to see to it that any individual statistics or returns or figures relating to individual undertakings will not be published without the previous consent of the person making those returns. That gives a very fair safeguard for people concerned under that Clause. But we want a particular safeguard because of the very detailed nature of the figures published.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The right Lon. and learned Gentleman has covered in greater part, if not entirely, the points I have raised, but the restriction is imposed by Clause 9 (1) on this disclosure. I am not so worried about disclosure in an officially published document, but, under Subsection (6), there is a penalty for wrongful disclosure. It occurs to me that, under Subsection (1), one may get information of a vital character, and one may want to impose greater restriction on this disclosure than is contained in this Measure. It is suggested that this Subsection (2) ought to be extended so as to enable the Board of Trade to increase the degree of security attaching to information obtained in that mariner. I do not know if the right hon. and learned Gentleman can deal with that point.
    Sir S. Cripps: I do not think that one can get a greater degree of security except by increasing the penalty. It is stated that a certain thing shall not be published, and I suggest that one cannot make any provision which is more definite than that. The only way we could give a greater degree of security would be to increase the penalty on the person liable for publishing them, if he does publish them against the provisions of the Act. I think there is an Amendment on that point which the hon. and learned Gentleman or some of his colleagues propose to move at a subsequent stage.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Does that mean that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is going to accept the Amendment?
    Sir S. Cripps: We will see when we come to it.
    Mr. C. Williams: I find it a very unsatisfactory position when again and again we are asked to rely upon the good will of the Government in these matters. That is not making laws; that is not telling the subjects where they are under this legislation. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has been in charming humour tonight, and everything has been so nice, but we know that, whatever he may say here, in effect his actions could be as severe as he wished to make them. I do not know that there is any chance of getting these Amendments passed. I know that assurances are given in perfectly good faith, but the position of the subject is not being safeguarded properly, and I very much regret it.
    Amendment negatived.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I beg to move, in page 6, line 14, to leave out from "be," to the end of the paragraph.
    This paragraph deals with matters in respect of publication of information. As I understand it, paragraph (a) provides that no such report shall be made of the number of returns received with respect to the production of any article if the number is less than five. It seems to me that paragraph (b) vitiates completely the directions given in paragraph (a), because whilst the number of people making the report will not be divulged, yet the total number of articles and the total value of those articles will be. If one sees in the columns of figures, that one column is left blank, a shrewd idea of the position can be gained from that fact and on reference to the subsequent columns the case will be made practically certain. It still seems to me that in the case of small industries, and where we may be exporting to hard currency areas, trade secrets involving a great deal of trading, may well be lost if information is given away about particular firms. There is nothing in paragraph (b) to prevent that information being given away. The words we wish to leave out make it possible for this information to be disclosed thus doing the trade of the country considerable harm. As matters stand, it seems to me that there is no protection whatever to industry in this and for those reasons we think these words should be omitted.
    10.45 p.m.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: I beg to second the Amendment.
    My hon. and gallant Friend has made so forceful, lucid and persuasive a case for this Amendment that it is unnecessary for me to add much to what he has said. The point, of course, is that as the Clause stands there is a risk of disclosure which would be damaging not only to the firm concerned but, in the cases which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred to, to the national interest. Such a risk of disclosure is acknowledged by the Government themselves in putting in the concluding words of the Subsection, which provide that any person concerned may make representations on this point. It is obvious that the skilled draftsman who advise the Government would not have inserted the words if the Government had not thought
    2660
    there was a risk of disclosure. Therefore it seems to me that it would be better to cut out the whole of the latter part of the Clause and prevent any risk of disclosure.
    Mr. Belcher: I must ask the House to resist the Amendment. It is the case very often in modern industry that the whole of one commodity is controlled by one concern, or by two or three concerns, either as a monopoly or a near monopoly. This was taken into consideration by the Census of Production Committee under Sir George Nelson and they made a specific recommendation that such disclosure should be permitted, because they realised that in modern conditions, it is possible for one concern to publish the whole productive capacity of a given commodity. Without this provision in the Bill it would be impossible for us to obtain information about that commodity which had become a monopoly and to know whether the information was available. It would be intolerable if the Bill were amended so as to make it impossible to acquire necessary information about a necessary commodity.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: As I understand the first three lines of Subsection (5), it only deals with information given to the public. I think the Parliamentary Secretary is addressing himself to a different matter.
    Mr. Belcher: I am sorry. I used the wrong word. There might be a case in which prior to the monopolisation of a commodity, such information was available to the public but when the commodity became subject of a monopoly they could not get it. That really would be intolerable, and I think it is essential that we should have all information.
    Sir William Darling: I strongly support the Amendment. When I first read Subsection (5) I was inclined to think the Amendment ill advised, but after hearing the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who speaks with a very limited knowledge on this aspect of the subject, I am sure I should support my hon. Friends. Let us take a commodity of which I have no special knowledge. Suppose a manufacturer was struck by the fact that large numbers of persons in the United States use chewing gum and he decided to set up a factory for the manu-

    2661
    facture of chewing gum in this country. Suppose he was the pioneer of that particular industry, and was endeavouring to set up a powerful monopoly or ring. He would be compelled during the first year, being a pioneer in this industry, to publish, not under his name but under statistics which would be readily recognisable, the following particulars. He would have to publish the total quantity or value of his product, the amount sold or delivered, and that would give the precise information to the American importing company which had hitherto had a monopoly in the British market. It would give them the character and value and strength of this nascent industry. They would learn how weak and soggy it was, what little encouragement it was getting from the Board of Trade, and it would encourage them intensely in their campaign against this industry and so destroy it.
    If statistics are going to be used for that purpose—and I submit the example I have given, which is imaginary, is sufficient to put my meaning before the House —it is obvious that no original industry could be set up in the face of competition without disclosing nakedly its weakness year after year to its competitors. If the collection of statistics is for the purpose of weakening British economy—and I fear that in 'this and similar instances it will be for that purpose—I shall support the Amendment. These statistics are not very palatable to me under any circumstances. I belong to the school of thought which believes that ignorance may well be bliss. The creation of a Grand Inquisitor to inquire too closely into too many facts may not be advantageous to the body politic. In this case, those who have put down the Amendment are justified in desiring to eliminate this objectionable conclusion to Clause 5 (b), and I have great pleasure in supporting the Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I beg to move, in page 6, line 29, to leave out "one," and to insert "five."
    I think everyone in this House will admit, particularly after the earlier discussion we have had on this Clause, that one of the most serious things that could happen would be the illegal and illicit
    2662
    divulgence of information under this Subsection, and we feel that this ought to be recognised by increasing the penalty stipulated in line 29, from £100 to £500. We feel, in view of all that is at stake— which is recognised by Members on bath sides of the House—that there should be a sum commensurate with the offence against industry and private industry that would be committed by such an act.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: I beg to second the Amendment.
    The obtaining of figures under this Bill, and the provision of those figures quite freely by industry, is obviously going to be determined by the feeling of satisfaction which industry has that no disclosure of this information will take place so far as the Civil Service is concerned. Therefore, we have suggested in this Amendment that the gravity of such an offence be recognised by the Government and by everybody concerned, by increasing the penalty from £100 to £500. I hope the Solicitor-General will agree to the Amendment, because it would help to safeguard traders and give them some confidence in the administration of the Bill.
    The Solicitor-General: I have listened carefully to the arguments advanced in support of this Amendment, and I feel that they are convincing. We think it would afford the business community a greater measure of confidence if the seriousness of disclosure was perhaps rather more emphasised in terms of the penalty than it is at the moment. For those reasons, I am happy to say that we can accept the Amendment
    Mr. C. Williams rose—
    Hon. Members: Oh!
    Mr. Williams: Here we have an Amendment accepted by the Government, yet apparently nobody is allowed to say "Thank you." The manners of hon. Members opposite appal me. I wanted to say "Thank you," and I also wanted to make it perfectly clear that all through this Bill the Government have taken great pains to inflict penalties for accidents; that is to say, on people who, by mistake, do not give the right returns. Yet when it comes to a matter involving deliberate disclosure and the injury of trade the Government have been rather slack. Once again they have been pulled

    2663
    up by Members of the party to which I belong, and I thank them very much. [HON. Members: "Hear, hear." I am glad hon. Members opposite are now awake to the fact that occasionally, although very occasionally, the Government do something sensible, so that it raises a small cheer.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 12.—(Offences by bodies corporate.)
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I beg to move, in page 7, line 34, to leave out Subsection (2).
    If it meets the convenience of the House, while discussing this Amendment I should also like to discuss the following Amendment in page 7, line 40, to leave out "and," and to insert "or." The question that arises for consideration here is whether one ought, in this Bill, to insert a provision which is very similar to provisions in many other Acts of Parliament nowadays. In fact, it is the growing practice to impose liabilities on officers of companies in addition to the body corporate, and then to cast the onus upon the officer of the company to prove his innocence. I do not think there is any justification, in this Measure, for casting that onus upon, for instance, directors of a company. I ask the House to consider exactly what a director will have to satisfy the court about in the case when his company is charged with failure to comply with a request made by any one of 21 Government Departments under Clause 1, or with regard to the census of production or distribution.
    Under Clause 12 (2) he would have to prove
    " … that the offence was committed with-out his consent or connivance…"
    Even though it may have been committed without his consent or connivance, he will still be found guilty of an offence unless he also proves
    "…that he exercised all such diligence to prevent the commission of the offence as he ought to have exercised having regard to the nature of his functions in that capacity and to all the circumstances."
    I think that is putting an almost impossible burden upon officers of a company. I am not seeking to secure an Amendment to this Bill which would enable any person who is seeking to evade any of its provisions, 'thereby committing a
    2664
    criminal offence, and to get off scot-free. On the other hand, proper collaboration will not be obtained under this Measure if it is made so punitive with regard to people in business that directors and other officials of a company have put upon them an extremely heavy onus which they cannot discharge, and which, through their failure to discharge, may result in directors and other officials who are really innocent being convicted of serious offences. In the normal case the persons who will get the forms to fill in will be the secretaries of companies. It may be brought to the notice of the managing director, but in the normal practice, the receipt of the form requiring information under this Measure will rarely come to the notice or attention of the directors at a board meeting.
    11.0 p.m.
    Therefore, I suggest that it is nonsense to say that where a company secretary negligently or deliberately fails to make a return, the directors of the company, who may know nothing about it and within whose province this sort of thing does not come, shall be guilty of an offence, unless they prove certain things. When this Bill was before the House for Second Reading it provided that to establish his innocence, a director had to prove one of two things—either the offence was committed without his knowledge or connivance, or that he exercised diligence and care. If he could prove either one or the other he was entitled to an acquittal. In the Committee stage, however, the word "or" as it stood in line 40 was taken out, and the word "and" inserted. The Parliamentary Secretary, in moving this Amendment in the Standing Committee, said that it was a drafting Amendment. At least that is my recollection of the matter.
    The Solicitor-General: He said it was an error.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I am speaking entirely from recollection, but I believe he said that the Amendment was a drafting one. If so I have never known of a drafting Amendment with such serious and substantial consequences. I suggest in all seriousness, to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the original word should be restored. My attention has just been drawn to the passage in the Standing Committee report, and it shows that my recollection was at fault. The hon.

    2665
    Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary said that the word "or" was there in error. It may have been a printer's error. If so I wish the printer would make another error. It is wrong, I suggest, to go on putting more and more onus on the accused person to prove his innocence. Each time this House does so, it is an infringement of the ordinary principle of English law that a man should not be found guilty until he has been proved guilty. Time and time again, we have violated that great principle. I think the time has come when in a Measure of this sort we should be careful about putting in a provision of this sort unless it is absolutely required. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman desires to proceed with this, he should take out the word "and" and insert the word "or" again.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: I beg to second the Amendment.
    It is not part of the desire of hon. Members on this side of the House that directors of companies who lend their names should escape reasonable responsibility for the actions of those companies. We do not move this Amendment in order that directors shall escape these reasonable responsibilities. But we feel that the requirements under this Subsection are unnecessarily harsh and impose an unreasonable burden on directors. We believe that our suggestion would serve the interests of justice and law, and at the same time make the position of directors more reasonable.
    The Solicitor-General: The hon. and learned Member for Daventry (Mr. Manningham-Buller), in moving the Amendment, said that this was no new provision. A close approximation to this Subsection has found its way into Acts of Parliament for many years past. In some cases, the onus has been upon the directors, in some cases upon the prosecution. There are examples of each. If I may cite to the House some of the examples in which the director is made liable and the onus is put upon him to establish his innocence I would refer to the Representation of the People Act, 1918, as amended by the Act of 1922, which was a very important Act. That Act, of course, placed substantial responsibility upon persons who might be charged under it. There is a whole row of others, including the Dentists Act of 1925, the Treaties of Washington Act, and the Theatrical Employees
    2666
    Registration Act of 1925. These are all cases in which the onus is placed on the director to establish his innocence.
    What we feel about this is, that in regard to this class of offence, in which information is required from a company, it would be wrong if those accepting responsibility for the management of the affairs of the company, should be able to evade liability when an offence has been committed virtually by putting that responsibility on to the company; that is, by shifting their responsibility on to the company. If it is right that the directors and officers of a company, as the persons responsible for running the company, should come within the purview of possible criminal proceedings in the case of an offence being committed, we think it equally right that the onus in this case, should be put upon them. They must of necessity possess knowledge as to the way in which the affairs of the company are run, so, that they, and no one else, will be able to say who really was at fault in respect of the fact that that information was not supplied. The prosecution, in a case of that sort, do not have an insight into the running of the affairs which the directors and officers of the company necessarily must have. Therefore we felt that in this case, once it is an accepted precedent that the directors are made responsible, and once it is approved that in the circumstance of that particular case they should be—that they are in control and are actually responsible for the running of the daily affairs of the company— we think it equally right that the onus should be on them to establish their innocence.
    As to what they have to do to establish their innocence, the terms of the S section are extremely generous to the directors and officers of a company. There is no rigid rule about it. They have to show that not only were they not consenting parties to the commission of the offence but, that, taking a common-sense view of the situation as a whole, and bearing in mind the way the company's affairs were run and the persons who actually took part in the management, that it was not reasonable to expect that they should have taken steps to prevent the commission of the offence. They are not liable if they can show, in the first place, that they did not consent, for obviously that is the first prerequisite; and also that they took all reasonable steps to see that an

    2667
    offence was not committed. We feel that the Subsection is worded in such a way as to be generous to directors. We think that it offers them all reasonable opportunities to escape. We say that the Subsection is so worded that a director can come to court and say that he did not agree to this being done, and that, having regard to the way the affairs of the company were conducted, he did all he reasonably could to prevent an offence being committed. The director then escapes liability.
    I ask the House to say that that is a reasonable and proper balance. That is putting the director in the sort of position he should occupy in relation to the company, having regard to his responsibility for its conduct. The same applies to the other officers of the company who come within the purview of Subsection (2). The hon. and learned Gentleman says that in any case we should substitute "or" for "and." But if I am right in the first part of the argument I have put to the House, I think that to accept this change would destroy the value of the Subsection. It would bring about this result, that the director could evade liability by establishing one of two things, that he was not a consenting party, or took all reasonable care. He would not have to establish both.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The hon. and learned Gentleman is not putting the case quite accurately. One thing for the director to establish would be, that he was not a consenting party, and did not connive. Suppose there is a case in which the director says, "I did not consent," and does nothing. Suppose the information has been asked for by the Board of Trade, and he does nothing further about it. It may be then held that he connived. The hon. and learned Gentleman is not meeting the argument fairly if, in stating the proposition, he omits reference to the word "connivance."
    The Solicitor-General: I am sorry, but I cannot accede to that view at all. If the word "or" is substituted for the word "and" the director could escape liability, for he could then say "I did not know, and so, a priori, I did not consent or connive. I know nothing about it." He might have been careless and deliberately shut his eyes, and walked the other way, when anything suspicious was being done.
    2668
    It would follow that he could not have connived or consented. He would get out of a number of acts for which morally he was responsible. If we keep the word "and" the director cannot get away by simply saying "I knew nothing about it." He would have to go on to say that he not only did not know or connive, but that, having regard to the circumstances of his company, he took all reasonable steps that could fairly have been expected of him. He would have to show these things. If the word "or" were put in, it would simply afford a loophole that could be used by any director who wanted to be unscrupulous about it. He would only have to close his eyes and say he did not consent or connive. Therefore, I ask the House to say that, once the Subsection is accepted as being desirable in principle, it would but emasculate it and make it easy to evade by an unscrupulous director if we were to put in the word "or" instead of the word "and." I ask the House to say, that there is a good case for putting responsibility on directors.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: May I, as a matter of interest and to obtain information, ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether it would be a defence for the director to say what, in fact, are the words in an Amendment that has not been called— that he had reasonable ground to believe that a competent person, namely, the secretary, or someone like that, was engaged in seeing that the provisions of the Bill were being carried out?
    The Solicitor-General: If I may with permission reply to the question, I would say that, undoubtedly, in a case like that, the director would have a perfectly good defence. He would say that the circumstances were such, and that a reasonable and responsible person was charged with this job. He could say, "We had confidence in him, and believed he was taking all reasonable precautions. As far as I was concerned, I did not consent or connive." In those circumstances, I would say he had a defence.
    Mr. Hudson: On a point of Order. You were good enough, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to explain earlier why the Amendment to which I have referred was not selected— because, in Mr. Speaker's judgment, it would be inconsistent with Subsection (2). As Subsection (2) is, presumably, going

    2669
    to be kept in, because the Government do not propose to accept our Amendment to leave it out, and as, from what the learned Solicitor-General has just said, it does not appear that the Amendment is inconsistent with Subsection (2), I wonder whether you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would reconsider that decision and whether the Government would not be prepared to accept it.
    11.15 p.m.
    Mr. Oliver Poole: I hesitate to intervene at this stage as I have not been following the various stages of the Bill. I would not do so now but for the fact that it seems to me two matters arise here which are matters of principle rather than of technical importance. The first is that the onus in this case is placed on the accused person. If this is so I do not think it would be hard to persuade the House that we ought not to accept such a proposal without a very full, detailed and satisfactory explanation. The hon. and learned Gentleman did not make a sufficient case to enable us to accept this without giving it further consideration. The results of the Measure will depend to a great extent, as has been shown throughout the deliberations tonight, on the good will and co-operation of the people making these returns and compiling these statistics. If that is the case, it seems quite wrong that the onus should be placed on the accused person, instead of the other way round. On that principle I support the Amendment and I am not prepared to accept the case put by the Government unless something further is added.
    The second matter of principle is very important. The Bill singles out the director as an individual and makes him, or an officer of the company, responsible instead of the company as a whole and its employees. This is very important because there is a tendency in all parts of business, commerce and industry today to give employees a greater part in saying how the business is conducted. It was the aim of many of us before the war, and long before this Government came into power.
    Mr. Cobb: Nonsense.
    Mr. Poole: The hon. Member has no right to say "Nonsense." One can produce many cases where this has been done for years, and if he will see me at an-
    2670
    other time I will give him a personal account of my actions in this respect. There is no difficulty in getting people to give advice on how to run your business, but there is great difficulty in getting people to accept a measure of responsibility. The Solicitor-General talked about directors who were careless and slovenly and made mistakes. But if these statistics are to be compiled regularly they mist become a routine matter; members of the staff must be detailed to make out these returns and if that is the case, it is quite wrong to place the director in a different position from that of the person who makes the return. If it could be proved that a director made a false return on purpose or directed that a false return should be made or ordered his staff not to disclose some aspect of his business, it would be quite right that he should be prosecuted and no hon. Member would wish anything different. But surely it is absolutely wrong, when it is a routine part of business, that the director should be singled out and made responsible for actions of the staff, when in fact it is the action of the company as a whole. I urge that, if we are to pay more than lip service to this ideal that all should share in the management, then, surely, all must share in the responsibility, and I strongly support the Amendment moved by my hon. and learned Friend.
    Mr. W. Shepherd: May I ask if it is your intention, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in view of remarks which have been made by the learned Solicitor-General, to call the Amendment standing in my name in page 7, line 44?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I will call it if the hon. Member wishes, but for the purpose of a Division only.
    Mr. Collins: I should not have intervened in this discussion had it not been for the extraordinary remarks of the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. O. Poole). He implied that, in any kind of relationship in industry, a director does not direct or accept the responsibility which are the dues of a director. It appears to me that, no matter what one calls the person responsible, somebody must assume responsibility for the acts and affairs of the business, and the particular set-up is not our concern. Whether the business is run completely by a works council—as is a business with which I

    2671
    am connected—or not, does not alter the fact that an individual or a group of individuals is conducting the affairs of the business, and must be responsible. If those in charge are so inept, or are such "guinea pigs" that they cannot accept responsibility for ensuring that the documents which they sign are accurate, in so far as it is reasonable to expect them to be so, then they should not occupy the office or be responsible for signing. those documents. It is absurd to assume that in any kind of properly-run business persons who have the name of director, and the function of director, are not completely responsible for their actions in matters of this kind. It would destroy a great deal of the value of this Bill if the request which has been made was acceded.
    Mr. Marlowe: The speech of the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) has been characteristic of the difference in view between hon. Members on that side of the House and hon. Members on this side. It is an unfortunate fact that hon. Members opposite always start with the assumption that all directors of all businesses are unscrupulous, whereas we do not think that. They believe that a director should be called on to prove that he is not unscrupulous. I might say that I am not a director of anything.
    Mr. Collins: I was making the point, not that directors were unscrupulous, but that it is fallacious to suggest that they should not be responsible.
    Mr. Marlowe: The hon. Member is taking the view shared by his hon. Friends. Before it is established that a director is dishonest, it is for the prosecution to prove it. The learned Solicitor-General says that the converse is the case, and the director must prove that he is not dishonest.
    I was not impressed by the argument of the Solicitor-General on the question of precedent. It is perfectly true that this is a common form of provision in some Bills but it is no argument when dealing with this Bill, say that because it appears in some other Bills it is appropriate here. We are dealing with a different type of Bill here. I thought the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Poole) made a good point that in this Bill you are trying to get the co-operation of those who will be
    2672
    affected by it and that the less penal you make the Clauses, the more co-operation you get. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Hudson), that where a deputy had been appointed to deal with the matter that would exculpate the director. I think the Solicitor-General was wrong on that, because the mere belief that someone else had fulfilled the task would not exculpate the director. On the proposed wording he would have to prove that he had been diligent in ensuring that someone had done the task on his behalf. It would not be enough for the director to say, "I thought someone else had done it;" he would have to see that someone else had done it.
    I hope that the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the member for Buck-low (Mr. W. Shepherd), on this point will be called. The Solicitor-General accepts the view that the director is exculpated if he believes the task has been done. If the Solicitor-General accepts that as what he is aiming at I think that he should accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend which is exactly in accordance with what the Solicitor-General declares to be the object of the Clause. If he wants to achieve that object he can do so by accepting the subsequent Amendment. Such a restriction as is applied here should be applied only in particular cases. The onus is on those who are putting forward a proposal of this kind to establish that it is an appropriate case. No case has been made out for including this provision in this Bill, and it should therefore be deleted.
    Sir W. Darling: I support the Amendment. Thirty years ago when I knew nothing about this matter, I might have been almost persuaded by the arguments of the Solicitor-General. But the persuasiveness of his argument runs counter to experience. I do not know if he realises what happens in a business, whether small or large. What is called for under the Bill is the willing co-operation of a large number of persons in supplying statistics. The basis is effective co-operation among all concerned. In a business I have under consideration the general manager is responsible for the stocks of raw material. He collects the stocks and transfers the particulars to a female secretary who is responsible for signing on behalf of the company a certificate of

    2673
    the stocks which the company has in hand. Now, the female secretary is a timorous creature well past the fifties and not likely to challenge the figures of tons, cwts. and lbs. of stocks of copper and other metals which are affected. But if she reads this Subsection she will be exceedingly apprehensive. She will learn that she may be joined in a prosecution with the manager, of whom she has a wholesome fear, and the directors, for conspiracy. While the plausible Solicitor-General would put her immediately at her ease if he were explaining the Subsection to her in the private office of the company, he will not be available for that purpose. He tells us the onus of proof will lie with this unfortunate spinster. She would be so overcome at the mere levelling of the charge that she would literally die of shame.
    11.30 p.m.
    The only way to deal with the matter satisfactorily is for the Government to dismiss from their minds this inquisitorial, penal attitude to those engaged in the conduct of industry. We who are engaged in industry are not criminals although the criminal character seems to be provided against in this Bill. We are business persons who have, not unsuccessfully, built up not inconsiderable industries. The businessmen of this country, taken by and large, are men of honour and repute in spite of the very ignorant sneers of hon. Gentlemen opposite. They have fought for their industries for many years and have been well disposed towards their employees and have given them their friendship. That is the whole history of the industry. This Subsection is going to drive a wedge between the directors, secretaries and other similar officers. What impression will it leave on any small or large business?
    I ask the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) to take this Bill into his office behind the glass door, ask the staff to read it, and then ask them what they think and see what are the repercussions. I think he will find that all the returns for his business will have to be signed by him. No-one else will take the responsibility. They will say; "Here is the responsibility and you alone will have to accept it." You may get a firm with several directors, assistant directors, managers, secretaries, assistant-secretaries,
    2674
    and departmental managers. Everyone will decline to sign the documents because of the penal results which may follow. This is not one return to be signed once in five years. These are weekly, monthly, or quarterly returns which will have to be made throughout the whole conduct of business this year or for ever after, I believe. Have the President of the Board of Trade and his colleagues— I know they have done a good job— allowed their imaginations to dwell on this? Take the case of an insurance company. The directors are usually between seven and fifteen in number. They have put in front of them the returns of the fire insurance taken out during that particular week not only in Great Britain but in the United States, Australia, South Africa, South America, all over the world in fact. Will these directors be subject to a penal offence unless they have been diligent in preventing the commission of offences? How can they in the case of returns arising from Brazil, South Africa, arid Ceylon, do other than be in a position to take the word of the responsible officer of the company?
    Mr. Collins: Would the hon. Member say whether there is any less likelihood of a director not knowing what he is signing in this case than in the case of signing a balance sheet? Would the hon. Member regard a balance sheet as of less importance than a document of this kind?
    Sir W. Darling: The hon. Member asks me if I would regard a balance sheet as of less importance than a statistical weekly return. He surely knows that balance sheets are signed only once a year. Such returns as the President of the Board of Trade will demand from business will have to be signed daily, weekly, monthly or quarterly. This is very different from the completion of a balance sheet the evidence of which has been before one's eyes and which has had the consideration of the accountants and bankers. There is every difference between the signature of such a document and the signature of a routine statement of stock in hand. Despite the important and valued practical advice which the Government have had at their disposal— from the hon. Member for Taunton, who, as far as I can see, is the only hon. Member opposite engaged successfully in business on his own account—it is regrettable

    2675
    to see how deficient hon. Members opposite are in this important matter. The intention of the Clause is to throw responsibility on every individual who is a director, or an officer of a corporate body. That is a very dangerous principle for the President of the Board of Trade to set up. Will he allow me to ask him this question? Is he prepared to accept the English proverb that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander? Is the President of the Board of Trade, or are any of his colleagues, such as the Minister of Fuel and Power, individually and collectively, prepared to accept the terms of the Clause? If the right hon. and learned Gentleman or any of his colleagues make an error, are they prepared to share the penalties and pains of that error? The right hon. and learned Gentleman is a corporate body. Is he prepared to be a corporate body in the sense that he intends to make me a corporate body? This collective responsibility can be carried too far. Perhaps I am carrying it too far, but if I am doing so, it is because I have learned from the examples and the suggestions of the President of the Board of Trade.
    Mr. C. Williams: We have heard from the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) and my hon. Friend the Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling) arguments in respect of certain traders and businessmen. I have the pleasure of representing a great many thousands of other traders, and they would undoubtedly have to collect the same statistics and be liable to the same penalties, at any rate, as far as their general managers, secretaries or other similar officers are concerned. My objection to this provision is not only from the point of view of big and little businesses, but also because great pains and penalties will be laid upon a body of individuals in my Division for whom I have a great admiration. A body of people who will certainly be liable to the penalties under this provision are the co-operative societies. I must warn hon. Members that if this Subsection is left in the Bill, undoubtedly their officials will be liable to these indecent pains and penalties which we regard as out of all proportion to the magnitude of the offences.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment proposed: In page 7, line 44, at the end, to insert:
    2676
    "Provided that no such person shall be liable to fine or imprisonment if he shows that he had reasonable ground to believe and did believe that a competent and reliable person was charged with the duty of seeing that the provisions were complied with and was in a position to discharge that duty:"— [Mr. William Shepherd.]
    Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and negatived.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: I beg to move, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."
    I would like to ask the Government how far they propose to go. We have sat a long time, and it was not our fault that the early part of the day should have been occupied by business other than which was originally intended. The original intention was to have the whole day for the Third Reading of this Bill. I feel that hon. Members on all sides of the House, including officers and servants of the House, would be grateful if we could finish now.
    Sir S. Cripps: We are practically at the end of the Report stage, and the Third Reading should not take very long. I am sure it would be for the convenience of everybody to finish the Bill now, and not leave it till some other date. We have already spent considerable time on the Bill, and had a full and useful discussion. We should finish the Bill before midnight, if not we can sit a little after. It is our proposal to proceed and finish the Bill tonight.
    Question put, and negatived.

    CLAUSE 16.—(Interpretation.)
    Sir S. Cripps: I beg to move, in page 8. line 43, at the end, to insert:
    "(2) Where an undertaking is wholly or partly carried on by means of branches situated at several premises the Board of Trade or other competent authority may agree with the persons carrying on the undertaking that for the purposes of all or any of the provisions of this Act a separate undertaking shall be deemed to be carried on at all or any of those branches by the branch manager or such other person as may be specified in the agreement.
    Any such agreement may contain such supple. mental provisions as may be expedient for giving effect thereto and shall continue in force for such term and shall be subject to such provisions as to variation and revocation as may be specified in the agreement."
    This Amendment arises out of a suggestion made during the Committee stage, when we promised to look into the matter to see whether some provision could not

    2677
    be made whereby in cases where an undertaking was carried on through branches, the documents and so on could be served upon the branches, and the branches could send in returns. We thought this would be much more convenient than making all the business go through the head office. That is the object of this Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.

    CLAUSE 18.—(Short title, extent and repeal.)
    Sir S. Cripps: I beg to move, in page 10, line 7, to leave out "section seven." and to insert:
    "sections seven and section (Information from persons entering or leaving the United Kingdom by air)"
    This Amendment is consequential upon the insertion of the new Clause dealing with persons entering and leaving the United Kingdom by air. In the Amendment it is necessary to refer to the marginal note of the new Clause because it has not yet been given a number. If the Amendment is accepted that would, of course, be corrected in the final print.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir S. Cripps: I beg to move, in page 10, line 8, at the end; to insert:
    "(3) It is hereby declared that the Census of Production Act, 1939, does not extend, and has never extended, to Northern Ireland."
    This is in order to make quite clear what the position of Northern Ireland is under the Census of Production Act, 1939. There was some difficulty, because nothing is said in the Act of 1939 to show whether it does or does not extend to Northern Ireland. As the House is aware, all Acts —unless the contrary is expressed or appears by necessary implication—extend to the whole of the United Kingdom. Under Section 6 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, an Act passed after the appointed day cannot be amended by the Parliament of Northern Ireland. In their Statistics of Trade Bill the Government of Northern Ireland propose to repeal the Census of Production Act. They can repeal the Acts of 1906 and 1917 but not that of 1939. Therefore, it is necessary to insert this Subsection in order that the Act of 1939 can be dealt with finally so far as Northern Ireland is concerned.
    Mr. C. Williams: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman really mean that under this Amendment the Bill will apply
    2678
    to Northern Ireland or not? If they get out of it, I say, "good luck to them."
    Sir S. Cripps: It means to say that they have power to legislate themselves in this matter. This is in order to make clear that the Census of Production Act does not extend, and never did extend, to Northern Ireland
    Mr. Williams: Then they are not forced to be under this Bill, which is rather lucky for them.
    Amendment agreed to.
    11.44 p.m.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Belcher): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
    I think it will be agreed that this Bill, in its Second Reading, had a good reception, on the whole, from the House. Hon. Members on both sides of the House expressed themselves as being in favour of the principle of the need for the kind of information which will be sought under the Bill when it becomes an Act. That reception was succeeded by constructive discussion in Committee, with constructive criticism coming from both sides of the Committee. That criticism and discussion was rendered all the more effective because of the able, firm and very pleasant guidance which the Committee received from my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mrs. Paton), who created history by being the first—
    11.45 p.m.
    Mr. Charles Williams; On a point of Order. Is it really in Order at this stage of a Bill to refer to the Chairman upstairs? It may be, for all I know, but it does seem to me to be stretching the point to refer to the conduct of the occupant of the Chair in a Committee upstairs, whether that conduct is good or bad. Whether it is good or bad does not matter, but I submit, with great respect, that to refer to the conduct of a Chairman upstairs means that we can on Third Reading refer to the conduct of the Chairman. I should have thought that that was very near to being out of Order for quite obvious reasons.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): It may be very near to being out of Order, but I do not think it is actually out of Order.
    Mr. Williams: Further to the point of Order. I will put the matter from another point of view. The Chairman upstairs undoubtedly cannot be in the Bill, and it is the custom that only what is in the Bill can be dealt with on Third Reading. From that point of view it is also the custom not to refer to the Chairman of a Committee. May I have your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as to whether the hon. Lady in question is in the Bill?
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member is quite in Order in that respect. I do not see the name of the aforesaid Member in the Bill. I thought that the hon. Gentleman who is moving the Third Reading was makng a passing reference to a unique event, and it should be no more than a passing reference.
    Mr. Williams: If we are allowed to make passing references to the conduct of persons who have occupied the position of Chairman upstairs, whether they are making history or anything else, we are going to render the position intolerable. Have we any precedent for making this reference to a Chairman upstairs, because it may become quite a habit, and it is against that that I want to protest?
    Sir William Darling; Further to the point of Order that has been raised. How can it be said that an hon. Lady in the Chair is making history? She is merely sitting in the Chair.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Before there are any other points of Order I will deal with the two points which have been put to me. I was engaged in a conversation at the time the Parliamentary Secretary referred to the hon. Lady who presided upstairs, and so I did not hear the exact words.
    Mr. R. S. Hudson: Further to the point of Order. May I tell you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that the Parliamentary Secretary was engaged in eulogising—and quite rightly in this case —the actions of the hon. Lady who occupied the Chair in the Standing Committee upstairs. If he can be allowed to eulogise, in this case deservedly, the actions of the hon. Lady upstairs, occasions may arise when it might be necessary to criticise, and would that, too, be in Order? I venture to suggest it is a very undesirable and unsafe precedent to establish in this matter, for if it
    2680
    is by any chance your Ruling that the Parliamentary Secretary was in Order in referring to the action of the hon. Lady who sat in the Chair upstairs, I think it is going to lead to danger.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Apparently the Parliamentary Secretary was referring to the precedent of an hon. Lady occupying the Chair in a Committee upstairs, and with that reference let us now pass on to the Bill.
    Mr. C. Williams: Further to the point of Order. I wish to know definitely whether we are allowed to make a reference to the Chairman of a Committee upstairs whether that Chairman does the job well or badly. I think we should be clear on that.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Again, I am still in this difficulty, that I did not hear the reference to the hon. Lady. I gather that it was not a reflection on the Chairman in the Committee upstairs, and, that being so, I think we may proceed.
    Mr. Williams: On a point of Order. It does seem to me that if we can refer to the conduct of a Chairman upstairs in any way, whether it be praise or otherwise, we are getting on very dangerous ground. As far as I am concerned, I hope it will not be allowed to be used as a precedent. Even if it is praise, I do not think it should be permitted, because the occasion might arise when it would be necessary to criticise, and that would be a reflection on the Chair. I want to know if we can comment on this matter.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. Williams) is in danger of making a speech, and, of course, that would be out of Order. The point is this. Reference has already been made to the hon. Lady and objection has been taken to that reference. It is undesirable to refer to those who preside over Committees upstairs. I hope that we can now proceed with the Debate on the Third Reading.
    Mr. Williams: Thank you for your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I hope this sort of thing will not occur again.
    11.50 p.m.
    Mr. Belcher: I will not make any further reference to the subject, except to say that I made a mistake in believing the hon. Member opposite would recognise the courtesy of my commenting upon a precedent.
    Mr. Williams: On a further point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I referred to one of the ordinary Rules of the House and, surely, the hon. Gentleman is rather transgressing by inferring that there is any lack of courtesy. I had no knowledge until a minute or two ago as to who was the occupant of the Chair. I only knew who it was when the hon. Gentleman mentioned the hon. Lady. It was simply on a point of Order that I rose, and I ask for your protection as to whether such an attack is just.
    Mr. Deputy-Speaker: If the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to be helpful to the Chair he will not make any further reference to this matter.
    Mr. Belcher: We have been glad of the constructive criticism which we received in the Committee, not all of it from one side of the Committee. We have shown our recognition of the nature of that criticism by embodying some of it in Amendments which we have put forward at various stages of the Bill. I hope that this Bill, which in essence is non-controversial, although in detail it may be controversial, will be supported in the country as it has been in the House. and that manufacturers and distributors, and all those people to whom it applies, will do their best to make it work effectively. It has been said on several occasions in the House that it is essential to have the good will of the manufacturers and of the distributors if this Bill is to work effectively. I hope, and believe, that we shall have that good will. The provision of a prompt and efficient statistical service is not a one-sided affair. It is not only the Government who can benefit from the acquisition and publication of these statistics. Industry can benefit as well. But neither side—neither the Government nor industry—can benefit unless both sides are prepared to play their part.
    Owing to the temporary difficulties which we experienced in the early part of this year, it proved necessary to postpone the first annual census of production and of distribution. I have observed that journals such as the "Economist," and many others, have regretted that it was necessary to postpone collection of this vital information. But we recognised that industry during this year had to face many difficulties, and that the burden which would have been placed on industry by the censuses, if they had taken place, would have been a very considerable
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    one, and to that extent we are glad to have been of some assistance to industry. Therefore, because we have been able to that extent to ease the amount of work falling on industry during this year, we look forward with all the more confidence to the fullest co-operation from industry when the censuses finally are taken. Meanwhile we are going ahead with the partial census in respect of production in 1946, and I hope that if there are any firms which have failed to send in information they will do so now. It has come to my knowledge that many firms have mistaken the statement I made about postponing the actual census to mean the postponement of the partial census which is being taken at present. I hope that my remarks now will clear any mistaken impression there may have been, and that firms who have been asked for information will let us have it without further delay.
    11.55 p.m.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: The hon. Gentleman, in moving the Third Reading of this Bill, has made considerable reference to what took place in Committee; but he has made no reference to what took place on the Report stage. I do not know whether it was really his intention to draw a distinction between the criticisms of the Bill received in Committee and the criticisms of the Bill received on Report—or on Second Reading.
    Mr. Belcher: Certainly not. I should have thought the fact that, during the Report stage, we answered some of the criticisms by accepting some of the Amendments is the answer to the hon. and learned Gentleman's point.
    Mr. Manningham-Buller: I am glad to receive that assurance. In the course of the Committee stage it was remarkable that Amendments should be moved by the Solicitor-General, who was not a Member of the Committee. While that was as not a precedent, as I understand it, it was a remarkable circumstance in the course of those proceedings. The hon. Gentleman has said that the principles of this Bill met with universal agreement. I think that if he had used the word "objects" he would have been more accurate. From the objects of this Bill I do not think any—or very few—of the Members of the House have dissented. But there has been considerable constructive criticism—and I think the hon.

    2683
    Gentleman will agree with me—of the failure to centralise the collection of the information; of the provision of power for no less than 21 Government Departments to ask pretty well for any information they want at any time; of the provision to make it a criminal offence not to give that information; and without any corresponding obligation upon the Ministries receiving the information to communicate the greater part of it back to the industries which these statistics are supposed to serve.
    I criticised that on Second Reading, and I am sorry that this Bill, in its present form, should still be subject to those major defects. With the objects of the Bill, as I say, we agree. We recognise the need for statistics; we recognise that they can be of great value, not only to the Government, but to industry. In saying that, I want to utter a few warnings. There is a grave danger that the census of production and of distribution may be published so late as to be dangerously misleading as to the situation at the time of publication. There is a danger that so much may be asked for in these censuses that we shall not get the information summarised and presented speedily enough to be of much value. I take the view that, really, the most important Clause in this Bill is Clause 1, because it is under that Clause that we shall get the information to enable the Government, if they desire, to compile the monthly return of statistics, and to put more information in that green book than it now contains. I should have liked to have seen Clause I expanded a little more, and a provision included somewhere in the Bill that the information given under that Clause should be made available to industry, because there is no obligation upon the Government, or any Ministry operating under Clause 1, to take that further step.
    I am a little troubled—and this is my last point I shall make at this late hour— with regard to Clause because Clause II, although not discussed tonight, was the subject of considerable discussion last night The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour, in the course of the Debate on the National Service Bill, subjected a Clause, which was a copy, in all material parts, of Clause 11 of this Bill, so far as it relates to the service
    2684
    of notices upon persons, to a most critical and hostile examination. He attacked the Clause root and branch. I must say that, as usual, I was impressed by the right hon. Gentleman's argument. would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have a look at what the Minister of Labour said with regard to the service of notices by post in that Clause, which is similar to this; and if there should be any substance in what the Ministry of Labour said with regard to service by post—a subject in which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General has interested himself a lot on the Agriculture Bill and other Bills—I hope we shall get an assurance that the defects to which he drew attention will be remedied in another place.
    In conclusion, I would like to say that it is unfortunate we should be having the Third Reading of this Measure at this late hour. There ought to have been more time given for discussion. I hope that the Government will be extremely careful in selecting what information they desire to obtain and will have at the back of their minds the immense burden they will put on industry if they ask for too many figures and facts to be supplied to them. They should keep in the forefront the necessity of asking only for what they want and of producing the results from these statistics at the earliest possible moment. If they do that I am sure they will have the assistance of all branches of industry. It depends on the Government. If they work this scheme properly, then the results should not only be beneficial to the Government, but to the people of the country as well.
    Sir William Darling: I would be failing in my duty if I did not, even at this late hour, do something to express, not merely for myself, but for the business section of this country, the view that this Bill is unwanted and unnecessary. The Parliamentary Secretary said the "Economist" has been telling us the Bill is a wanted Bill. I defy him to tell me of any trade paper, apart from the academic journals which he and Members of the Government read, from the "Drapers' Record" to the "Footwear Journal," which has not condemned this Bill about which he is so complacent and pleased. He can say it is recommended and desired and it may serve a useful purpose in respect of those

    2685
    who support it. I speak as the president of a chamber of commerce which has been in existence for over 100 years and has 2,000 members. It will probably carry little weight with the Parliamentary Secretary, but might I draw his attention to the speech made by the President of the Society of Incorporated Accountants two days ago? He said:
    "Many firms will really be alarmed if they have to prepare statistics owing to the increase in their staffs in gathering the composite figures for controls, in complicated wages systems and form filling generally."
    That is not the Member for South Edinburgh speaking, but Mr. F. Willey. President of the Society of Incorporated Accountants. I entirely agree with his view, and he speaks with high authority. The Parliamentary Secretary will have 21 Departments which may come and demand information from me. Mr. Willey goes on:
    "The present network of controls, with their elaborate administrative machinery, far outweighs the benefits it gives and is a strain on industry too great to sustain efficiency"
    The Parliamentary Secretary is not impressed by the observations made on this side, but business men generally will not be unimpressed by what the President has said. Do not let him delude himself during his Margate holiday that he has brought great benefits to business. He has not; a little of this would have gone a long way, and there is far too much in this Bill.
    Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending
  2686
  Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the County Borough of Bournemouth, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the County Borough of Northampton, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Barry, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th May be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Scunthorpe, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 193.2, to the Urban District of Brierley Hill, a copy of which Order was presented on 20th May, be approved."
  Resolved:
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Rural District of Watford, a copy of which Order was presented on loth May, be approved."—[Mr. Ede.]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Resolved: "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Pearson.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Seven Minutes past Twelve o'Clock.