§ Colonel ClarkeI beg to move, in page 10, line 24, after "half," to insert: "not more than two-thirds."
§ Mr. SpeakerI think it would be for the convenience of the House if this Amendment were discussed with the next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member, in page 10, line 25, to leave out from beginning, to "and," in line 27, and to insert:
members of local authorities whose districts are wholly or partly within the area, nominated (by such bodies as appear to the Minister to represent those authorities) to represent the general interests of domestic consumers of electricity.
§ 4.30 p.m.
§ Colonel ClarkeClause 7 (2) states that not less than half of the panel of persons nominated from members of local authorities in the area of the board in question and nominated by such associations as appear to the Minister to represent those authorities shall go to the formation of such a council; and the remainder, if any—and I repeat "if any," because not less than half might mean all from local authorities—are to be appointed after consultation with such bodies as the Minister thinks fit to represent consumers of electricity, and other persons or organisations interested in the development of electricity in the area.
What we seek to do is, first, to limit the number drawn from local authorities to two-thirds. In the Clause as it stands the specific representation of the consumers is the duty of the other half— not the half drawn from the local authorities—and they are also to represent persons and organisations interested in development of electricity in the area. We all admit that local authorities may, and do, represent domestic consumers, but the great bulk of electricity is consumed by industry, and there is a risk of industry not being adequately represented. Secondly, we seek expressly to require in writing that the local authority members—those nominated by local authorities—shall represent the general interest of domestic consumers. Third, we wish to clear up the position of the local authority whose territory is partly in one area and partly in another area. That is not clear as the Clause stands. Fourth, by changing the word "association" to "bodies," we believe we are giving 232 greater flexibility, as some bodies which might be useful might be excluded if we use the word "associations." We believe that this will clarify the Subsection.
As I have said on previous occasions, we appreciate the objects for which these consultative councils are to be set up. We believe the objects to be sound, but we distrust the ability of the machinery envisaged in the Clause to obtain those objects. I believe that no single piece of machinery can possibly fulfil the two functions which are required—one to protect the consumers, and, the other, to provide industry with the opportunity of general criticism and of giving helpful suggestions. I believe that two separate machines are needed. I am trying to make the best of the Clause, and I hope that my suggestions will be accepted in that spirit. I know that local authorities may wish to resist this. They would like to have an opportunity of being the sole representatives. I do not blame them. They have had considerable powers in the past, and every one likes to retain their powers. I am a member of a local authority, and I have sympathy with them, but what we ask for is really all that they have had in the past—that there should be maximum representation of two-thirds, which is, roughly speaking, equivalent to the power which they have always had.
§ Mr. Pickthorn (Cambridge University)I beg to second the Amendment
§ Mr. ShinwellIt may be for the convenience of the House if we consider the basis upon which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has presented his Amendment. It is proposed in the Bill, with regard to the creation of consultative councils in each area, that they should consist of not fewer-than 20 or more than 30 persons to be appointed by the Minister, and not less than half to be appointed from a panel of persons nominated from amongst members of local authorities in the area by such associations as appear to the Minister to represent those authorities; and the remainder shall be appointed, after consultation with such bodies as the Minister thinks fit, to represent consumers of electricity and other persons or organisations interested in the development of electricity in the area. Those are the terms of the Clause.
233 It is of the utmost importance that the provision for appointing members to the consultative councils should be flexible. The reason is that circumstances vary from area to area. There is no dispute between us as to the desirability of having the local authorities represented on the consultative councils. In certain areas, there are local authorities who have been directly associated with electricity undertakings which they own; whereas, in other areas, there are local authorities who, while naturally interested in the matter of electricity supply, were not the owners of electricity undertakings. It appears to me that it might be necessary—indeed, I think that it will be necessary—that we should vary the arrangement for the appointment and the representation of local authorities from area to area, and not provide too rigid a form. It is true that the local authorities associations, as I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman indicated, have expressed a desire for an increase in the number of local authority representatives on the consultative councils; on the other hand, the Federation of British Industry, which claims to represent industry, have expressed the view that the proposed number of local authority representatives is too high and industry should have a larger number of representatives. It is for the Minister to strike a reasonable balance, taking all the circumstances into account, to see that the local authorities who, on the whole, can claim to represent the domestic consumers are adequately represented, and, at the same time, to ensure that industry is also adequately represented. That is the intention.
If I accepted the Amendment to substitute the words, "nor more than two-thirds," for the word, "half," local authorities in every area might assume that they were entitled, in spite of the special circumstances of the area, to two-thirds representation. I do not want to give them that impression, and I feel it is better that the matter should be left in my hands after consultation with the representative organisations. In view of that explanation, perhaps the hon. and gallant Member will feel that I have taken the most appropriate line in the circumstances.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonI think that the difficulty under which we are labouring, and under which the Committee upstairs laboured, lies in the fact that the Govern- 234 ment do not seem to have any clear idea of what interests, if any, the local authority representatives should represent. It may be argued, and it would perhaps be somewhat natural to argue, that local authority representatives are the natural custodians of the interests of the consumers, the electors, who, for the most part, use electricify. But that interpretation does not seem to square with the words of the Clause, which states:
Each of the said Councils shall consist of …The implication of that is that if the rest are to represent the interests of the consumers the local authority representatives are to represent something else, not the consumers. We have never been told what the local authority representatives are to represent. They certainly do not represent agricultural interests, or the industrial consumers of electricity, although there may be some exceptional cases where a local authority has a large factory which consumes electricity, or owns trams which need electricity to run them. But these represent a minority, and it seems hardly logical that in order to represent such local authorities half the members of the consultative council in every area should be appointed from members of local authorities. I cannot conceive that that is the intention, even allowing for the woolliness of the present Minister.
- (a) not less than halt shall be appointed from a panel of persons nominated from amongst members of local authorities in the area by such associations as appear to the Minister to represent those authorities; and,
- (b) the remainder shall be appointed, after consultation …to represent consumers of electricity …"
One of the main defects of the Bill is that the statutory safeguards which the consumer has enjoyed since electricity first started to be developed are being abolished. The only alternative safeguards are these consultative councils. Therefore, we attach the greatest importance to trying to see that these councils are bodies which will have a substantial voice, and can make their influence felt. We put forward suggestions in Committee for improving the effectiveness of these councils. Some of those suggestions were adopted by the Government, and form the subject of subsequent Amendments. We believe that it is vital that there should be a clear understanding of what the consultative councils exist for, and I would like to ask the Minister 235 whether he could define, at this late stage, what his conception is of the functions of local authority representatives? Are they to represent domestic consumers, or to be on the council merely because they once had electricity undertakings which are now being taken away? If we could get our ideas clear on that it would help Members on all sides of the House to be able to assess, better than they can do at the moment, the provisions of this Subsection.
§ 4.45 P.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellIf the right hon. Gentleman's ideas are not clear I cannot understand why he described me as being woolly. I should imagine that it was his mind which required clarification. He himself tried to clear up the matter in Standing Committee, and I am a little surprised at the way in which he has just spoken. In dealing with this point in Standing Committee, the right hon. Gentleman "said:
I think everyone will agree that the local authorities can be taken to represent the ordinary domestic consumer. They certainly will not represent the industrial consumer, the commercial consumer or the agricultural consumer.''That is not a very good answer to his question, because they represent the whole of them in one form or another. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to say:Therefore, we think that the domestic consumer ought to be well satisfied with having 50 per cent. of the representation. This is slightly more than the domestic consumer is entitled to on the basis of electricity consumed, and for these reasons we suggest that the words 'not less than' should be deleted, and the word 'one' inserted, so that one-half of the council, and not more than one-half, should be representatives of the local authorities."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E, 18th March, 1947; c. 302.]If that is so, I cannot understand why this Amendment has been proposed today. The right hon. Gentleman wanted to know whom the local authorities represented, and why they were to be represented on these consultative councils. The Bill is explicit about the functions of the councils. I will not weary the House by reading the relevant Clause, but it is clear what the consultative councils are expected to do. The local authority has the right to be represented on the consultative council, because apart from its general interest in the provision of electricity supply it has a special interest. An area board or the 236 Central Authority, may require from time to time to open up streets, interfere with highways, or disturb amenities to lay cables and the like. Clearly, a local authority is much concerned with such questions, and would wish to express an opinion upon them, but generally speaking I would say that the primary interest of the local authority on the consultative councils is its concern with the interests of electricity consumers and, in particular, of potential electricity consumers with regard to the possibility of expanding electricity in its area. It seems to me that in all the circumstances we are taking the right measures to secure adequate representation from bodies which are entitled to be represented.
§ Mr. R, S. HudsonIf I may speak again by leave of the House, I should like to answer the right hon. Gentleman's question by saying that the reason we put this Amendment down again was that a Division was taken in the Committee upstairs on a limiting Amendment which was defeated. We then suggested not more than half, but, in order to go further towards meeting the right hon. Gentleman we are now suggesting that it should not be more than two-thirds. As the Bill stands the Minister is able to appoint a 100 per cent. local authority representation if he so desires. The Bill says, "not less than half," but it leaves him free to appoint 100 per cent. if he wishes. It may be that we have not made our point clear, but while admitting the definition he has just given of the function of the local authority representation, which is clearer than any we have ever had before, we still think they ought to be content with a half and certainly not more than two-thirds in order to enable adequate room to be found for the people whom we consider should be represented as consumers —namely, those whom the right hon. Gentleman intends to include in an Amendment which will be discussed later.
§ Mr. ShinwellIt is quite clear that provision is made for persons other than those represented on local authorities because paragraph (6) says that the remainder shall be appointed. It may well be that this requires strengthening, and although I am not quite certain, I think it might be more explicit. In those circumstances I think it might perhaps be possible to correct the matter in another place.
§ Colonel ClarkeIn view of that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, in page Io, line 30, after "represent," to insert:
agriculture, commerce, industry, labour and the general interests of.This Government Amendment is in response to a suggestion made in our Debates in Committee that all desirable interests should be represented. There is another Amendment on the Order Paper which contests one of the words contained in this Amendment—the word"labour"—but perhaps I can deal with that at a later stage. It is my submission that these words adequately secure the representation of all persons and bodies who are entitled to be represented.
Mr. McKie (Galloway)I should like to say how pleased I am that the Minister has responded to what was said upstairs. This Amendment covers a wide variety of interests and it was certainly our contention in Committee that all possible interests should be taken into account with regard to representation on the consultative committees. As a Scottish Member perhaps the Minister and you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, will allow me to say how glad I am that this Amendment has been so widely drawn, because we Scottish Members had and, indeed still have, considerable apprehensions in regard to the' way in which this Bill will operate in the northern Kingdom. It may be out of Order for me to say this, but—
§ Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont)If the hon. Member knows that it is out of Order he had better not say it.
Mr. McKieI accept your Ruling, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but I think I am in Order in saying that we will have some doubt as to how this Measure will operate in Scotland. As a Scottish Member representing an agricultural constituency I am glad to see that the Minister has put agriculture first on his list because there is no doubt that it ranks largest, both from the point of view of area under cultivation and the numbers of people employed. We are very anxious to see that it should be the first concern, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has drawn this Amendment so widely.
§ Colonel ClarkeLike the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. McKie), I should like to say how glad I am to see the Minister inserting the word "agriculture" here for the second time in the Bill. In spite of the fact that in his Second Reading speech he said how important it was to increase rural area electrification, I think I am right in saying that in the Bill as originally drafted the word "agriculture" did not occur at all. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will now bear in mind the engagement that was made between the companies and the National Farmers' Union in September, 1946, whereby a really big scheme of rural electrification was to take place in the next five years enabling farms in the country to be supplied with electricity. This scheme was accepted, without responsibility on the Treasury, by the farmers, who were to bear one-third of the cost, and by the companies who were to bear the other two-thirds. Now the companies are going out of existence and I hope that the Minister will recognise that the new Authority should take over that obligation which was not originally intended to be a Treasury obligation although, in the present circumstances, it undoubtedly becomes one.
§ Mr. Palmer (Wimbledon)I understand, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that it is not proposed to call the Amendment to the Minister's Amendment—to leave out "labour," and to insert "persons employed by the Area Board."—standing in my name and in the names of my hon. Friends. Therefore I hope to keep in Order by putting my points at this stage. I want to argue that the Minister should interpret the word "labour" in his Amendment in such a way as to give representation on the consultative committees through the trade unions to those actually employed in the industry. When this matter was raised in Standing Committee I believe that the word "syndicalism" was breathed, but this would hardly be syndicalism because the consultative committees are advisory bodies only, and syndicalism, if it means anything, must surely mean some degree of control.
5.0 p.m.
It may be argued that to include employees in this narrower interpretation rather than in the broad definition of 239 labour is improper, because the consultative committees are purely consumer organisations; but I do not think that that is the view of my right hon. Friend because he resisted an Amendment of the Opposition upstairs to change the name of the consultative committees to consumer councils. I want to quote, if I may, some of my right hon. Friend's words. There are two very good quotations, but in view of the need for pressing ahead I will only read the shorter one. This was on the 6th day of the Committee, when the right hon. Gentleman said:
Hon. Members will see, therefore, that this is something far beyond a consumers council. It is an entirely new conception, and one which is, I think, very desirable in the circumstances."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E, 13th March, 1947; c. 278.]I hope, therefore, it will not be argued by my right hon. Friend that this is a purely consumers' body and that the employees in the industry should not be represented on it. In the words of the Bill, these consultative councils are to consist of all those interested in the development of electricity in the area, and I am sure that those who work in the industry, technical staff, clerical staff and manual operatives, would certainly come under that definition. I have always found the workers in the electricity industry to be extremely proud of their connection with it. They understand the obligations of the industry to the public, and because of their knowledge of consumer requirements it would be useful if they were represented on the consultative councils. They would make a valuable contribution to the work of the councils because of their knowledge of consumer requirements.I, therefore, hope that my right hon. Friend will give an assurance that he intends to give the word "labour" in his own Amendment the meaning "electricity supply employees" and not restrict it, let us say, to the secretary of the local gas workers' branch. Not that one has any objection as such to gas workers, but the gas worker or the carpenter, the doctor or the housewife, is, in relation to electricity, a consumer, whereas the electricity worker is obviously in a very special relation to it, and that is the point I want to make. I know what my right hon. Friend will say, at least I think I do. He will say that under Clause 47, 240 which deals with the negotiating machinery and all the rest of it, the workers have a right to be consulted on all matters affecting the industry, including the practical efficiency of the industry. I am very glad of that, but. I am definitely arguing, and I know I have the support of a number of my hon. Friends, for something additional and extra to that. I want to bring the rank and file employees into a local, common unity of purpose which is really enthusiastic for the development of electricity. I want to bring them in on a level which will really mean something to them.
There is no question, as I see it, of bringing wages, salaries and conditions into the discussions in the consultative councils, because those matters are quite properly dealt with by the machinery provided under Clause 47. I support this Bill in the interests of electrical efficiency, but I am not so foolish, I hope, as to suppose that the replacement of a director of a company by a far-away expert or even by a retired trade union official, does not at times appear a somewhat cold transaction to the men in the industry itself. If nationalisation in this industry or any other industry is to have a personal meaning to the men and women employed in it, if we are to achieve success in our efforts in the public ownership of electricity supply, we have to make such arrangements that the workers in the industry will intimately share in its responsibilities.
§ Mr. Carmichael (Glasgow, Bridgeton)I want to support the point of view just submitted by the hon. Member and plead with the Minister on this issue, as the hon. Member's Amendment will not be called. In Committee an effort was made to have the workers engaged in the industry closely associated with the consultative councils. If I read this Clause aright, the tendency is all in the direction of watching the rights of both domestic and industrial consumers, and no one will quarrel with the idea that it is necessary to include a Clause of this kind. But surely the tendency today, if nationalisation has a meaning at all, is to bring the workers into the closest consultation with the consumers of the goods which the industry produces. Even in industries under private enterprise it is the tendency to bring the workers as closely as possible into contact with those who are running the 241 industry. This is purely consultative, and I submit that with the best will in the world, and with all their knowledge of local government, even members of local authorities who sit on a consultative council see only one angle of the problem. It is the same with representatives of the industries which may be associated with it. I feel that all interests should be associated in any general discussion—not on conditions or hours of labour, but on how best to equip the industry to meet the demands of the consumers.
I submit this further point because I believe it is of the utmost importance. While I was a member of the Committee upstairs I was also associated with the Scottish Committee dealing with the Health Services for Scotland. I was absent on occasions from either the one or the other because they both happened to meet at the same time, but if I am permitted to draw an analogy, may I call attention to the Government's attitude in regard to the Scottish Health Services? An advisory committee was appointed— surely I am entitled to draw such an analogy?
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerI have not stopped the hon. Member. He has hesitated without being stopped.
§ Mr. CarmichaelYour movement, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, made me think that you were getting ready to make a comment on my observations, but I will go on until I am stopped. There may be some difference between an advisory committee and a consultative council, but I do not know it. I admit ignorance at once; I cannot define too clearly the difference between them. My reading of their responsibilities is that in either case they are merely to give suggestions to the responsible authority, either the Minister or the board. I know that the Government which was responsible for this Measure was responsible for the Scottish Health Services Measure, and the advisory committee in the latter case is completely dominated by people directly associated with the profession—I dare not say with the industry, because I am dealing with the medical profession. On an advisory committee of 35 members 18 mast be medical practitioners. If that is so, there is nothing unreasonable in pleading that the Minister should interpret the word "labour" to include those engaged directly in the industry in the membership of these councils.
242 I admit there may be other interests involved, but I feel that people direct from the industry should be permitted to sit on the councils, even more than trade union officials representing those workers. I hope our pleading will not be in vain, because of the importance of getting the workers to believe that the nationalisation of the industry is much more than a mere change of ownership and that they are being brought into it as members of the community to give even better than they have given in the past.
§ Mr. Collins (Taunton)I support the point of view that has been put forward as to representation upon the consultative councils. I find it difficult to believe that that is not the intention of the Amendment which has been moved by my right hon. Friend. If one notes that representatives of agriculture, commerce, and industry are to be included in the consultative councils it should be obvious that they must include workers' representatives. Agricultural workers represent the industry quite as well as farmers, and they are represented upon the county committees. It is wholly wrong for the expression "representatives of agriculture" to exclude the farm workers. Similarly, the broad term "representatives of industry" must include not only employers and administrators, but employees, mechanics and others. I hope that the Minister will confirm that view.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonUnfortunately for the argument advanced by the last three speakers, the hon. Member who read out extracts from the speeches of the Minister as they suited his purpose refrained from repeating what the Parliamentary Secretary had said on the same point. Perhaps the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Collins) might be interested to note what those views are. The Parliamentary Secretary said:
I suggest to my hon. Friends that in view of the fact that we are going to introduce an Amendment on the Report stage covering organised labour it is really unreasonable to insist that we should make specific provision for the representation of the employees in the industry.He went on to say:Some of the speeches made by my hon. Friends conveyed to me the idea that these bodies were going to discuss all sorts of things connected with the efficiency of the industry. Supposing they were; I would draw attention 243 to Clause 47 (1, b) where provision is made for consultations between the boards and those employed by the boards on matters affecting safety, health and welfare, and all other matters of mutual interest to the boards, including efficiency in the operation of the board's services.Those are already provided for in Clause 47 (I). The Parliamentary Secretary proceeded:I would emphasise as strongly as I can that I entirely agree with the remarks which have been made by some hon. Members regarding the need for bringing the employees in on that side. What I disagree with is the suggestion that they should be brought in, as such, to these consultative councils."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E. 18th March, 1947; c. 320..]
§ Mr. PalmerI included that point in my remarks.
§ 5.15 P.m.
§ Mr. HudsonIt is clear that in the mind of the Government the council is not concerned with the efficient running of the industry in the national sense, but only with the impact of the industry upon the consumer. It is not concerned with what a particular generating station does. We welcome the Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has moved. It corresponds to and complies with a request that we put forward from our side of the Standing Committee. The only point where it is deficient is that indicated in an Amendment in our name to the proposed Amendment, after "agriculture" to insert "housewives." Fortunately for the Government, it is not likely to be called. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why 'fortunately'?"] Because it would presumably, in view of the Government's attitude towards the housewives, embarrass the Government if they found they had to comply with the request.
I am the more surprised at the Minister omitting any proposal to include the housewives, because of the remark which he made just now towards the end of his speech in moving the Amendment. He said that he was anxious to cover all practical consumers when he was looking for these representatives. By far the majority of practical consumers of electricity in this country are the housewives. 'They probably know more about electricity than other classes, and they can be trusted in increasing number to do so when the right hon. Gentle- 244 man, in his other capacity as the Minister of Fuel and Power, is able to provide a little more coal.
In a recent speech even the Minister himself paid a tribute to the housewives. The right hon. Gentleman makes so many speeches, some optimistic and some pessimistic, that he may not be able to keep track of them. The speech to which I now refer was made on 14th June. He said:
Housewives have contributed much valuable advice from the stores of their experience and common sense, and they are working hard to assist.He evidently thinks more of housewives than does his right hon. and learned colleague, the Attorney-General. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that the housewives have contributed much valuable advice from the stores of their experience, it seems odd that when he is laying down the people who are to be represented upon the consultative councils as practical consumers, he does not propose to avail himself of the housewives' advice and common sense. Despite the fact that the Amendment may not be called, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman in the light of the speech which I have quoted, will say that the omission is an oversight which he "will rectify by an Amendment in another place.
Mr. Shin wellPerhaps I had better dispose of the right hon. Gentleman, to begin with. I remember him, in the days of unemployment and squalor for which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends were primarily responsible. I shall not go into that matter, because I imagine it would be out of Order, or we might find ourselves in disorder. At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman must be asked to distinguish between ordinary, common-sense housewives of the country who deserve our support, and certain organisations which claim to represent housewives or alleged housewives but which are, as we know—I think I have the appropriate word—the maidservants of the Tory Party. If I accepted such an Amendment as is on the Paper, and if I were to make arrangements for the insertion of the word "housewives," I should be challenged immediately by the spinsters and by the single persons, who are consumers of electricity also and have as much right to be represented on the council, as consumers of electricity, as have the housewives.
245 Local authorities are to be represented on the consultative committees as I have indicated already, and that is provided for in the Bill. There are many housewives associated with the local authorities, being members of those local authorities, and very valuable members indeed. I should not be at all surprised if, in appointing representatives on local authorities after consultation with the bodies concerned, we find quite a large number of housewives—
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonNot spinsters.
§ Mr. Shinwell—of the intelligent and non-Tory type on the consultative councils. There we must leave this matter of the housewives. Let us come to the major point under review. I fully understand the conception held by my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Palmer), who has great knowledge of this industry and of the employees in the industry. I appreciate the conception which is, in effect, put forward in order to create something akin to democratic control in the industry. He argues that the employees in an industry should be associated with the general activities of that industry. In fact, we have so provided in Clause 47 to which my hon. Friend referred. May I direct the attention of the House to what is in Subsection (I, b:)
the promotion and encouragement of measures affecting the safety, health and welfare of persons employed by the Electricity Boards"—that is very desirable—and the discussion of other matters of mutual interest to the Boards and such persons"—that is the employees—including efficiency in the operation of the services of the Boards.Those are very comprehensive words and go much further than anything attempted in the sphere of private enterprise. Already we find in connection with the nationalised mining industry that that conception is beginning to bear fruit. There is being promoted a better atmosphere and there are more consultations. There will have to be more consultations, but that will come in due course. The conception is here deployed and I hope it will come to fruition in due course. What my hon. Friends are seeking to achieve is that the workers should not be regarded merely as ciphers, whether they are in the employment of a private individual, a public 246 utility company or a public corporation. They believe that a worker should have the status which enables him to be brought into every possible sphere relating to the activities of the industry concerned, while his knowledge should be placed at the disposal of the Board responsible for the supervision of the industry.When we come to the consultative council and ask the question, "How are these consultative councils to be different from the consumers' councils?" I can give the answer at once. Often in the past we have been told that the consumers' councils were merely eyewash. The consumers' councils have been a facade—a camouflage for the real purpose behind their creation. They met frequently, but they had no authority and their advice was disregarded. I have a much broader conception of consumers' rights than was reflected in the old consumers' council, and even in the case of the nationalised mining industry, where the consumers' councils are provided for and which are now in the process of being appointed, we expect that those bodies will express themselves, if necessarily forcibly, on matters which relate to the consumers' interest and will not be fobbed off by pious declarations by those responsible for the running of the industry or the service there.
If hon. Members look at Clause 7 (4, a) they will see how comprehensive are to be the activities of the consultative councils. They are to concern themselves with
any matter affecting the distribution of electricity in the area, including the variation of tariffs and the provision of new or improved services and facilities within the areaThat goes very far, and therefore, there is great substance in the claim that already we have made these consultative councils really live virile bodies, actively pursuing the interests of the consumer in the area.The question at issue is whether the employees of the area board in a particular area should be represented on these consultative councils, and I ask myself the question, "Why should they be represented on these area boards if provision is made in Clause 47 for consultation and discussion in the adequate presentation of the interests of the employee in regard to matters pertaining to health and welfare?" It seems, therefore, that 247 it is redundant that they should be represented specifically on these consultative councils. I have provided in the proposal now before the House that labour along with other interests in commerce and agriculture should be represented on the consultative councils. I have been asked to define labour. Is there width or breadth in that definition? Perhaps I can give an empirical reply. When I appoint the consultative councils, what process will I envisage? I will first go to the local authorities or the organisation of local authorities if one exists in the area, and ask for their views about the persons who should be represented on the local authorities. Then I should approach representatives of certain indus-tries in the area, who may be concerned with domestic expansion or even with industrial expansion. Next I should approach the trade unions in the area, and perhaps the co-operative organisations who represent consumers, and any other consumers' organisation which is truly representative and ask them to make recommendations to me, reserving to myself the right of appointment.
§ Mr. James Hudson (Ealing, West)Did my right hon. Friend deliberately make the differentiation when he said that he would approach the trades unions and, "perhaps the co-operative organisations" ?
§ 5.30 p.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellI was not aware that I said "perhaps the co-operative organisations," and I will correct myself at once. Inasmuch as the co-operative societies can reasonably claim with substantial reasons that they represent a large body of consumers, they ought to be represented. I do not exclude any other representation by consumers' organisations if there are any, in the area. I will approach the trade unions. When I approach the trade unions in the area—or perhaps a trades council or some other trade union body—and ask them to make appointments on the consultative councils of representatives of labour, as indicated in my proposition, if they care to send a trade union secretary, that is not my concern if the person is worth while and has the qualifications. If they select two or three—I shall not specify the actual number—persons who are actually engaged in electricity activities under the direction 248 or supervision of an area board, I will enter no caveat. I will leave it to them to make the recommendation, but I will not—I say this quite categorically to my hon. Friends—make an appointment on the consultative councils specifically and definitely from employees of an area board, because I think that would be improper. I am sorry that I must say so to my hon. Friends.
On the other hand, I see their intentions and they are reasonable and good intentions, and, so far as I can comply with them, I shall certainly do so. Hon. Members know me well enough to know how anxious I am to secure the adherence and active assistance of employees in all industries, particularly in relation to nationalised undertakings. I shall do what I can to implement what I have said in the past in these matters. In those circumstances I beg my hon Friends not to press the matter, and I "presume that hon. Members opposite will not press me on the question of housewives. I think that in all the circumstances I have made the provision as comprehensive as it is possible to be, and with that I leave it to the House.
§ Mr. John Foster (Northwich)I would like to add a few words of support to the plea made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) in favour of housewives. If we look at the classes included in the Amendment we see that each one of them —agriculture, commerce, industry and labour—are sections which use electricity, except for labour, for the purpose of producing something. They are not purely consumers who are consuming it for themselves. Labour is in another category and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it should be included, but he told us just now that he was going to approach the trade unions, and one of his objections to the housewives was that a certain proportion of them—and perhaps the majority of them— were the handmaidens of the Conservative Patty. What about the trade unions? We know that they are perhaps not the handmaidens of the Labour Party, but they are certainly the masters of the Government. Why is it an objection to the housewives that they might be Conservative and not an objection to the trade unions that they might be Labour? It cannot be an objection. The Govern- 249 merit are very touchy about the subject of housewives.
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerI must remind the hon. Member that the Amendment dealing with housewives has not been called. He can, therefore, only deal with that as a passing reference.
§ Mr. FosterWould I be in Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in devoting the same amount of time to housewives as did the right hon. Gentleman?
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerThe hon. Gentle-mar, can only wait and see.
§ Mr. FosterI am in some confusion about this because if the right hon. Gentleman made a passing reference of about four minutes, I assume that a passing reference of about four minutes on my part will also be in Order. The right hon. Gentleman is touchy about housewives. He is touchy about housewives because he has to follow in the way of that perpetual apologist, the Attorney-General. He is touchy about housewives, because if he were not touchy he would include them as they use an enormous amount of electricity. There are, as he suggested in his speech at Leyton, 40 or 50 women's organisations to support them. Those organisations represent the housewives. It has always been the objection to a sensible reform that it goes too far, raises a matter of principle or that other people will object. It is no objection to including housewives because the spinsters might object. One might think that the spinster who looks after a household is a housewife in that sense. Obviously, we cannot expect everybody on a consumers' council to have to produce their marriage lines, because they can be consumers of electricity whether they are married or not. It does not depend on the validity of their relations whether their relationship is that of mother or daughter, or whoever it is keeps the house That is only a debating point, and a very poor debating point.
The truth of the matter is that there is a section of the community who use electricity purely as consumers and who are not on the productive side in the sense that they are producing like agriculture and industry. They are purely consumers, and it is in the interests of the industry that their views should be represented.
§ Mr. ShinwellAs an organisation.
§ Mr. FosterSo far as I understood, the right hon. Gentleman did not point to any organisation which covered them.
§ Mr. ShinwellYes. The hon. Gentleman may not be aware that there is an association of women directly concerned with electricity supply and distribution—the Women's Electrical Association—and, of course, we should consult the Women's Electrical Association. Perhaps that never occurred to the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. FosterIt did occur to me. The lady who is the head of that organisation deserves very well of this country for her work in that sphere, but she does not represent the housewife as a housewife. The lady I am thinking of is a very skilled "technician on the electricity side, if we have the same lady in mind.
§ Mr. ShinwellThe hon. Gentleman has some other lady in mind.
§ Mr. FosterWhy is it that the right hon. Gentleman refuses to admit that the housewives can contribute a lot to consultative councils? It is on them that any burden of increased rates will fall. If the dangers which we apprehend happen in this nationalisation scheme, it will be very valuable to have on the councils some level-headed intelligent women. Even if they are Tories, the right hon. Gentleman should not indulge in victimisation by saying that they are not to be on the councils because they are the handmaidens of the Tory Party. Even if they had said that nationalisation is leading to disaster, they should be included. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider the matter and to see whether there cannot be representatives of housewives on the consultative councils.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, in page 10, line 43, at the end to insert:
but a member of a Consultative Council other than the chairman shall not by reason of his appointment as such a member be disqualified for being elected to, or for sitting or voting as a member of, the Commons House of Parliament.There is provision in the Bill which excludes hon. Members of this House from serving as members of the Central Authority or the area boards and acting as chairmen of consultative councils, but it occurred to me that we might be going 251 a little too far if we sought to disqualify an hon. Member from serving as a member of a consultative council. In order to correct that defect in the Clause, I am moving this Amendment.
§ Mr. Boyd-CarpenterI do not think the right hon. Gentleman has given any explanation of this Amendment. The effect, as he rightly said, is to enable hon. Members of this House to sit on these consultative councils, and that raises the issue whether they should be allowed to do so. There seem to me to be two objections. In the first place, hon. Members at the moment have all they can manage with their own legitimate work in this House, and very few indeed are in any position to take on and effectively discharge extra work outside. Therefore, there seems to be remarkably little case at the moment for facilitating their intrusion into other spheres of public work. Secondly, there is another objection, perhaps of more profound and permanent constitutional significance. Under subsection (9) provision is made that such people who serve on these councils may be paid expenses. It is, I suggest to the House, undesirable to extend the number of hon. Members who may be in receipt of money from Governmental agencies. It has been for 200 years the policy of this House to restrict, so far as possible, the number of hon. Members who shall be in receipt of remuneration of any kind from the Crown or from the Executive. That principle has been most rigidly maintained by this House, and it has necessitated specific Acts of Parliament in many cases to permit the creation of one additional Minister of the Crown. Now we have the right hon. Gentleman, as by a sidewind, and with a certain amount of casualness, proposing to introduce a provision under which hon. Members shall be in receipt of the payment of expenses from sources connected with his Department and the Electricity Authority.
I am not suggesting for one moment that these small sums would be any element of corruption, but I am saying that it is undesirable in principle to increase the role of the Executive as paymaster with regard to hon. Members of this House, and unless the right hon. Gentleman can find stronger reasons than he has done, it seems somewhat extra- 252 ordinary that he should be prepared, for convenience perhaps in one or two cases, to violate a constitutional principle of considerable respectability and age.
§ Mr. Pickthorn (Cambridge University)I do not attach any great importance to this, but my prejudices are rather the same as those just expressed, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether there ought not to be second thoughts about this. I wonder if he would not find it possible to have second thoughts about this in another place. It cannot really be considered that there will be any considerable number of consultative councils which will be hopelessly debilitated by the absence of Members of Parliament and, on the other hand, there is the objection of principle which has been indicated, and I should have thought really it deserves rather more consideration than it has had.
With apologies, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I will only take one sentence because this I agree is an infinitesimal point, but perhaps it is part of my function to be pedantic about these things—will the right hon. Gentleman consult his draftsmen about the second word in the third line of his Amendment, as to whether the word after "disqualified" should not rather be "from" than "for"? We may as well get these things right, and I am inclined to think that it would be better that way. I hope he may look at it later.
§ 545 P.m.
§ Lieut.-Colonel Elliot (Scottish Universities)We are, of course, in rather a difficulty here because this is the process of the Minister in abolishing elected bodies and substituting for them nominated bodies, and as soon as he starts that he will be in difficulty. He is sweeping away the democratic process of election by which the local authorities ran the great public electrical bodies in the past, and is substituting for them these consultative councils which, as he has repeatedly said, are to be nominated by him.
We know the principles upon which the Minister is working in these matters because he himself told the House last night:
I would not appoint somebody to one of the electricity boards in a representative capacity, if he had expressed himself as being against the provisions of the Bill and had declared that nationalisation was bound to prove a failure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1947: Vol. 439, c. 117.]253 What we would like to know from the Minister is, does he attach the same importance to these consultative councils as he does to the boards, and does the same bar which he has put on the boards apply to the members he is about to attach to the consultative councils? If he could give us an answer to that, it would elucidate the point as to how the series of elections which the Minister will now conduct under his hat are to work. We should like to know, on this question of consultative councils, the principle upon which he will act?
§ Mr. ShinwellI will answer the question at once. I do not propose to appoint persons to these consultative councils without consulting with representative bodies in the area, and they will presumably make recommendations. I am not bound to accept the recommendations, but I shall take cognisance of them because the bodies concerned have greater knowledge of the persons in the area and their qualifications than I have. Therefore, there can be no question of discrimination against any individual on account of his politics. Indeed, I must have said that a score of times last night, on a few occasions when the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was present and on several occasions when he was absent, and I trust what I have just said will satisfy him.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotIt is just because of those declarations which the right hon. Gentleman has made on many occasions 'when I was present, and no doubt on certain occasions when I was absent, that I am pressing him upon this occasion. He has said that he will take cognisance of the representations made by the local organisations, but that he does not feel himself necessarily bound to accept them. That is in the Bill. These are not representative institutions, these are nominated institutions. What I am trying to get at is the basis upon which he will work, because it is very important to know.
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman is going right outside the terms of this Amendment. It is a very small point that is under discussion, namely, whether a member of a consultative council can or cannot be a Member of Parliament.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotYes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, and I was just coming immedi- 254 ately to the point. The Corporation of Edinburgh is a local authority and has expressed itself in no uncertain way about the Bill. An hon. Member of this House is firmly convinced that the Bill will lead to disaster, and that nationalisation is a very bad thing, namely, the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W Darling). If the Corporation of Edinburgh desire to appoint the hon. Member for South Edinburgh as a member of that area board, will or will not the right hon Gentleman discriminate against him? It is a perfectly fair question which arises because it affects every hon. Member on this side of the House. The point is that the definition laid down by the right hon. Gentleman will, as far as I can see, exclude every hon and right hon. Member on this side of the House and include every hon. and right hon. Member on that side. Therefore, we are entitled to ask, is this the purpose or will it be the result of the Amendment? If so, it is obviously a serious departure from what has been previously the practice in the political life of this country.
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot enter into an argument on the matter. As I have said, this is a small issue—the question is whether a Member of Parliament can or cannot be a member of a consultative council.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotI agree it is a narrow point, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I would say, however, that it is a narrow point raising a great issue. I see that the right hon. Gentleman offers to answer.
§ Mr. ShinwellThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman has asked me if the Edinburgh Town Council, as one of the bodies in the area who are consulted about the persons to represent local authorities on the consultative council, made a recommendation that the hon. Member for South Edinburgh (Sir W. Darling), who is a member of the Conservative Party, should represent them on the consultative council, what I would do. My answer is this: I would not exclude the hon. Member on the ground that he was associated with the Tory Party.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotAlthough it is a narrow point it is a great issue, for all the Minister has said is that he would not exclude the hon. Member on the ground that he was a member of the 255 Tory Party. I trust not, for indeed that would be a very flagrant piece of favouritism. But the right hon. Gentleman carefully hedged his answer about by many other avenues which he closed to the hon. Member for South Edinburgh. On the formula laid down by the right hon. Gentleman it would be possible and, indeed, legitimate for him to exclude any
§ hon. Member on this side of the House. I say that he is opening the door to a serious piece of political favouritism and patronage, with which we cannot agree, and we propose to divide against this proposal.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 279; Noes, 105.
257| Division No. 276.] | AYES. | [5.52 p.m |
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.) | Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J |
| Alpass, J. H. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Lee, F. (Hulme) |
| Anderson, A. (Motherwell) | Evans, E. (Lowestoft) | Lee, Miss J (Cannock) |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Evans, John (Ogmore) | Levy, B. W. |
| Attewell, H. C. | Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) | Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Ewart, R. | Lewis, J. (Bolton) |
| Awbery, S. S. | Fairhurst, F. | Lipson, D. L. |
| Ayles, W. H. | Farthing, W. J. | Lipton, Lt.-Col. M |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. | Femyhough, E. | Logan, D. G |
| Bacon, Miss A. | Field, Capt. W S. | Longden, F. |
| Baird, J. | Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.) | Lyne, A. W. |
| Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J | Follick, M: | McAdam, W. |
| Barstow, P. G. | Forman, J. C. | McEntee, V. La T. |
| Barton, C. | Freeman, Peter (Newton) | McGhee, H. G |
| Battley, J. R. | Gaitskell, H. T. N | Mack, J. D |
| Beattie, J. (Belfast, W.) | Gallacher, W. | McKay, J. (Wallsend) |
| Bechervaise. A. E | Ganley, Mrs. C. S. | McKinlay, A. S. |
| Benson, G. | George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey) | McLeavy, F |
| Berry, H. | Cibbins, J. | Macpherson, T. (Romford) |
| Beswick, F. | Gilzean, A. | Mainwaring, W. H |
| Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Glanville, J. E. (Consett) | Mallalieu, J P W |
| Binns, J. | Goodrich, H. E. | Mann, Mrs. J. |
| Blenkinsop, A | Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood) | Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) |
| Blyton, W. R. | Grey, C. F. | Manning, Mrs L (Epping) |
| Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W | Grierson, E. | Mathers, G |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Griffiths, D. (Mother Valley) | Mealand, H. M |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. & (Llanelly) | Mellish, R. J |
| Braddock, T. (Mitcham) | Grest, Dr. L. Haden | Messer, F |
| Bramall, E. A. | Gunter, R. J | Middleton, Mrs L |
| Brook, D (Halifax) | Guy, W. H. | Mikardo, Ian |
| Haire, John E. (Wycombe) | ||
| Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Hale, Leslie | Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R. |
| Brown, George (Belper) | Hall, W. G. | Mitchison, G. R. |
| Brown, T. J. (Ince) | Moody, A. S- | |
| Bruce, Maj. D. W T. | Hamilton, Lieut.-cot. R. | Morgan, Dr H B |
| Buchanan, G | Hardman, D R. | Morley, R. |
| Byers, Frank | Hardy, E. A. | Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) |
| Callaghan James | Harrison, J | Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) |
| Carmichael, James | Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) |
| Castle, Mrs. B. A. | Herbison, Miss M. | Moyle, A. |
| Chamberlain, R. A | Hewitson Capt. M | Nally, W. |
| Champion, A. [...] | Hicks, G | Naylor, T. E. |
| Chater, D. | Hobson, C. R. | Neal, H. (Claycross) |
| Chetwynd, G. R | Holman, P. | Nichol, Mrs M. E. (Bradford, N.) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) | Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) |
| Cocks, F. S | House, G. | Noel-Baker, Capt. F E (Brentford) |
| Collindridge, F. | Hoy, J. | Oldfield, W. H |
| Collins, V. J. | Hubbard, 1 | Oliver, G. H |
| Colman, Miss G. M. | Hudson, J. H. (Ealing W.) | Orbach, M. |
| Comyns, Dr. L. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) | Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) |
| Corlett, Dr. J. | Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.) | Palmer, A M. F. |
| Corvedale, Viscount | Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) | Parkin, B T |
| Cove, W. G. | Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) | Paton. J (Norwich) |
| Crossman, R. H. S. | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) | Pearson, A. |
| Daggar, G. | Irving, W. J. | Peart, Thomas F. |
| Daines, P. | Jay, D. P. T | Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield) |
| Dalton, Rt. Hon. H. | Jeger, G. (Winchester) | Popplewell, E |
| Davies, Ernest (Enfield) | Jeger, Dr. S, W (St. Pancras, S.E.) | Porter, G (Leeds) |
| Davies, Harold (Leek) | John, W | Price, M. Philips |
| Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Jones, D. T. (Harllepools) | Proctor, W. T |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) | Pryde, D. J. |
| Deer, G. | Kendall, W. D | Pursey, Cmdr. H. |
| Delargy, H. J. | Kenyon, C. | Randall, H. E |
| Diamond, J | King, E. M. | Ranger, J |
| Dodds, N. N | Kinley, J. | Rankin, J. |
| Driberg, T. E. N. | Kirby, B. V. | Reeves, J. |
| Dumpleton, C. W. | Lang, G. | Robens, A. |
| Ede Rt. Hon. J C | Lavers, S | Poberts. Emrys (Merioneth) |
| Rodertson, [...] (Berwick) | stokes, R. R | Watkins, T. E |
| Rogers, G. H R. | Stross, Dr B | Watson, W. M. |
| Ross, William (Kimarnock; | Stubbs, A E | Webb, M. (Bradfora, C.) |
| Royle, C | Swingler, S | Weitzman, D |
| Sargood, R | Sylvester G. O | Walls, P L (Faversham) |
| Scollan, I | Symonds, A L. | West, D. G |
| Scott-Elliot, W | Taylor, H B (Mansfield) | Westwood, Rt. Hon. J |
| Segal, Dr S | Taylor, R, J. (Morpeth) | White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Shackleton, E. A. A | Taylor, Dr S. (Barnet) | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W. |
| Sharp, Granville | Thomas 0. E. (Aberdare) | Wigg, Col. G. E. |
| shawcross, C. N (Widnes) | nomas, I. 0. (Wrekin) | Wilkes, L |
| Shinwell Rt Hon E | Thomas, John R. (Dover) | Wilkins, W. A. |
| shurmer P. | Thomas, George (Cardiff) | Willey, F. T. (Sunderland) |
| Silverman, J. (Erdington) | Thomson, Rt, Hon. G. R (Ed'b'gh, E.) | Willey, 0. G. (Cleveland) |
| Simmons, C J. | Thurtle, Ernest | Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove) |
| Skeffington, A. M | Tiffany, S. | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| Skinnard, F. W | Timmons, J. | Williamson, T |
| Smith, C. (Colchester) | Titterington, M T | Willis, E. |
| Smith, H. N (Nottingham, S.) | Tolley, L. | Wills, Mrs. E P |
| Smith, S. H (Hull S.W) | Turner-Samuels, M | Woods, G. S |
| Snow, Capt. J. W | Vernon, Maj W F | Wyatt, W. |
| Solley, L J. | Viant, S P. | Yates, V. F. |
| Soskice, Maj [...] | Wadsworth, G | Young, Sir R (Newton) |
| Sparks, J. A | Walkden, E. | Zilliacus, K. |
| Stamford, W | Walker, G. H | |
| Stephen, C. | Wallace, G- D. (Chislehurst) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES |
| Stewart Michael (Fulham, E.) | Wallace, H W. (Walthamstow, E.) | Mr. Joseph Henderson and |
| Mr, Hannan. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Amory, D. Heathcoat | Galbraith, Cmdr T. O | Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R | Gammans, L D | Medlicott, F. |
| Baldwin, A. E. | Grant, Lady | Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) |
| Barlow, Sir J. | Grimston, R. V. | Mott-Radclyffe, C. E |
| Beamish, Maj. T. V. H. | Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A. V | Neven-Spence, Sir B. |
| Bennett, Sir P. | Haughton, S. G. | Noble, Comdr. A. H. P |
| Birch, Nigel | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C | O'Neill, Rt Hon Sir H |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Hope, Lord J | Osborne, C. |
| Bower, N. | Hudson, Rt Hon. R S. (Southport) | Peto, Brig. C. H M. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. | Huid, A. | Pickthorn, K |
| Braithwaite. Lt. Comdr. J. G. | Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) | Prior-Palmer, Brig. 0. |
| Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W | Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) | Raikes, H. V. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T | Jarvis, Sir J | Rayner, Brig R |
| Bytcher H W | Jeffreys, General Sir G | Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury) |
| Challen, C. | Kerr, Sir J. Graham | Robinson, Wing-Comdr Roland |
| Channon, H. | Lambert, Hon. G. | Ropner, Col L. |
| Clarke, Col. R S | Lancaster, Col. C. G. | Ross Sir R. D. (Londonderry) |
| Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G | Langford-Holt, J. | Savory, Prof. D. L |
| Conant, Maj. R. J. E. | Law, Rt Hon. R. K | Scott, Lord W. |
| Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E | Lindsay, M. (Solihull) | Snadden, W. M. |
| Crowder, Capt John E | Linstead, H. N | Spearman, A. C. M |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Low, Brig. A. R. W | Spence, H. R. |
| Darling, Sir W Y | Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. 0 |
| Davidson, Visncountes | MacAndrew, Col. Sir C | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Digby, S. W | McCallum, Maj. D. | Strauss, H. G. (English Universities) |
| Dodds-Parker, A. D | Macdonald, Sir P (I of Wight) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Drayson, G B | Mackeson, Brig. H. R | Thornton-Kemsley C N |
| Drewe, C. | McKie, J H. (Galloway) | Touche, G C. |
| Duthie, W. S | Maclay, Hon. J. S | Vane, W M. F. |
| Eccles, D. M. | MacLeod, J | Walker-Smith, D. |
| Eden, Rt. Hon. A. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon Harold (Bromley) | Ward, Hon. G. R. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. Waite | Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | Wheatley, Colonel M J |
| Foster, J. G. (Northwich) | Maitland, Comdr. J. W. | |
| Fraser, H. C P. (Stone) | Manningham-Butler, R. E. | TELLERS OF THE NOES |
| Fraser, Sir I (Lonsdale) | Marshall, D. (Bodmin) | Mr. Studholme and |
| Major Ramsay. |
§ 6.0 p.m.
§ Mr. Pickthorn (Cambridge University)I beg to move, in page II, line 27, at the end. to insert:
(7) Each of the said Councils shall keep a register Which shall be available for inspection at all reasonble times and without charge, by the owner or occupier of any premises within the area of such Council, and shall record in such register a copy of every such representation to them as is referred to in subsection (4) of this section, together with the names and adresses of the persons by whom it was made, the dates on which it was 258 received and considered, any conclusions thereon notified by them to the Area Board or to the Central Authority, any conclusions thereon notified to them by the Area Board, any directions given thereon by the Central Authority, and the date on which notification of each such conclusion or direction was received by the Council.
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerIt will be for the convenience of the House if, with this Amendment, we take two other Amendments. One is in the name of the Minister of Fuel and Power—in page 11, line 35, at end, insert: 259
(8) A Consultative Council may, after con sultation with the Central Authority, make representations to the Minister on any matters arising out of representations made by them to the Central Authority under subsection (6) of this section, and if it appears to the Minister, after consultation with the Area Board and with the Council, that a defect is disclosed in the Area Board's general plans and arrangements for the exercise and performance of their functions under this Act, he may notify the defect to the Central Authority, and thereupon the Central Authority shall give to the Area Board such directions as they think necessary for remedying the defect, and the Area Board shall give effect to any such directions.The other is in the name of the right hon. Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson), in page II, line 35, at end insert:(8) The Central Authority shall, when giving to the Area Board any directions under the last foregoing Subsection, furnish a copy thereof to the Council and if, at any time after the expiration of two months after they have made representations to the Central Authority, the Council shall represent to the Minister that they are dissatisfied with such directions, or with the failure of the Central Authority to give directions, the Minister shall, if so required by the Council, cause an inquiry to be held and may require the Central Authority to give to the Area. Board such directions as he shall think fit
§ Mr. PickthornI am grateful for your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. It would perhaps save the time of the House if I began at the end, and very shortly indicated the argument for the second of the Amendments in the name of myself, my right hon. Friend and hon. Friends. The Minister has made it quite clear that he intends these consultative councils to be, in effect, at any rate, rather more than consultative. He has used rather striking words which from any other mouth might even perhaps have seemed exaggerated. He said:
—the consultative councils will be endowed with powers and will be called upon to undertake activities far wider than in the case of the consumers councilsLater, he said:Will hon. Members please note how wide their powers are? They have to deal with any matter affecting the distribution of electricity …Later he made his statement more- specific. He said that there was to be:…a fully-fledged partnership with the area boards …We decided to make the Central Authority responsible for generation and the area boards responsible for distribution, and perhaps also partly responsible for 260 generation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E, 13th March, 1947. c. 276-8.]He then went on to describe the relations of the consultative councils with those bodies, so that-it is quite plain that in the contemplation of the Minister these councils are meant to have a kind of effectiveness not perhaps often associated with consultative councils. He told us that hitherto consumers' councils had always been eyewash. I was not sure whether he was referring to the Coal Act. Perhaps we have not had enough experience to know about that, but I do not know to what other consumers' councils he was referring.If these consultative councils are to have anything like these activities and powers, which the Minister may have been rather exaggerating—indeed he must have been, if they are to have activities and powers they cannot 'be precisely described as consultative—what they will most need will be information, to know what happens. That is the aim and object of the second of these Amendments. The operative words are:
The Central Authority shall, when giving to the Area Board any directions …furnish a copy thereof to the Council and if …the Council …are dissatisfied with such directions, the Minister shall …cause an inquiry to be held. …I think that is a fair synopsis of the proposal in the second of our Amendments. The main object of the Amendment is to make sure that the consultative councils do know. Our argument is strengthened by the Minister's new Subsection, which, I take it, is shortly to be moved. How can these consultative bodies decide to proceed further under that new Subsection unless they can get at the sort of information for which we are trying here, in our proposed Subsection (8), to provide the machinery? That is the short point of the second Amendment, and I hope that that will be a sufficient explanation.I turn back to the earlier of our two Amendments, on which I think it is necessary to be very slightly more lengthy. These are the operative words:
Each of the said Councils shall keep a register …available for inspection …and shall record in such register a copy of every such representation to them as is referred to in subsection (4) …together with …any conclusions thereon. …In other words, the object is to make it possible for the ordinary 261 member of the public, the private or corporate consumer of electricity, to know what happens to his representations. As the matter stands at present, he represents that in some way or another the service is inefficient or excessively dear, but he does not know what happens next. Our proposal is that there should be a register kept which would enable him to see what happens to his representation, if anything does happen. I suggest that that really gives a kind of democratic control over the matter which really is not provided anywhere else in the Bill.I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will not think I am being excessively controversial if I say to the Minister that it really seems that such provision is unusually necessary and is made more unusually necessary with every utterance from the Minister. Again he told us this afternoon that he might perhaps have a town council advising him to appoint a housewife to one of these advisory committees, but he said, "Not a Tory housewife, but a housewife who is of non-Tory character." I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite to-think that those of us who are opposed to Socialism are nevertheless honest in our desire that where anything is socialised the resulting arrangements should be as good as they can possibly be made. If that is so, one of the main charges against nationalisation has always been, and must always continue to be, that we get precisely this sort of thing, that it is this way we drift into the one-party State. One starts by saying that we cannot even have a housewife on an advisory committee about electricity in East Anglia unless the Minister first vets here to discover that she toes the party line. We have had that said today. Last night, the Minister said, talking not of these councils, but of other boards:
—it would be quite improper to appoint to such boards a person who was definitely opposed to the nationalisation of the industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1947; Vol. 439, c. no.]
§ Mr. PickthornHon. Members opposite evidently think that is wise. The Minister has said that he did not say that, but there it is in HANSARD, and it is my own recollection of what he said. If there is any risk at all, the Minister has made it doubly clear that there is a risk with him. It is usually polite to say on these 262 occasions, "We have no suspicions or doubts about the representative of the Ministry now before us, but he is not eternal, he may pass away one of these days, and who knows what sort of person we may get." I admit I have no such fears today. That is not my argument. My argument is that the existing Minister has made it quite clear that he will have such considerations in mind in making these appointments.
Then what sort of safeguard in future is an electricity consumer who does not toe the party line going to have? If he and his wife do not toe the party line then they cannot sit on an advisory council. We know that they cannot sit in a managerial capacity; we were told that last night. The existing statutory safeguards, all the safeguards that arose out of the existence of private enterprise, out of the possibility of competition from gas and so on—all those safeguards are to go. I suggest that the only genuine safeguard yet proposed to be put into this Bill is the one which I am now proposing. That is to say, where private individuals, or others for that matter, including corporations, have made any representations to the consultative councils, whose power and influence the Minister rates so high— where they put in special representation, there should be a simple method by which they should be able to follow the fate and effect of those representations. That is the short point of these two Amendments, and particularly of the first, with which I am now dealing.
I think there are other arguments in its favour too. There would be increased public confidence in the councils and less risk of the councils dwindling into nothingness or, at least, into insignificance. I think that clearly such provisions as I am recommending to the House would prevent unnecessary and double work. It would make it possible, where a question arose, for it to be dealt with by a very simple means of centralising representations and so on. It would be a very simple job to note what questions were arising here and there, so that there would be no need to have the same sums worked out in five or six different places.
§ Mr. PalmerDoes the hon. Gentleman propose that each everyday trivial complaint about electricity service should go 263 into this register? Surely the book would be simply full of complaints.
§ Mr. PickthornI like what the last sentence seemed to mean; I understand the hon. Lady the Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) knows what the hon. Member for Wimbledon really meant.
§ Mrs. Leah Manning (Epping)It is the hon. Member for Cambridge University who does not know.
§ Mr. PickthornTaking the words on their face value, I think there is something in what was said. But I am a little surprised at that particular intervention because the hon. Member had the advantage of sitting on the Committee upstairs If he will read the Committee HANSARD he will see the distinction made by the Minister between the trivial everyday complaints and the other sort and their treatment. I do not think that difficulty need make the House hesitate. I think also that the proposal would tend to discourage frivolous or ill-founded complaints because people would not like to be seen trying publicly to make trouble where no trouble was I think it would lead towards consistency, towards the building up of a general case law in these matters. I ask the House, if it is possible to put aside party prejudice in this matter, to believe that we are not here trying to make it difficult to socialise, though we think it wrong to socialise the industry; what we are trying to do is to make it certain that, if socialised the industry-must be, then still the ordinary person should have some chance not only of having, but of knowing and feeling and being seen to have, a method of influencing the way in which provision of this necessity is managed with regard to his own particular or local interest.
§ Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre (New Forest and Christchurch)I beg to second the Amendment.
§ 6.15 p.m.
Mr. McKieI very much hope that after the modest and persuasive speech of my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), the Parliamentary Secretary, in his own interest and in the interests of the Minister, will consider this Amendment very carefully. In my view it is most constructive, and I think the Minister should regard it with serious attention. My hon. 264 Friend appealed to him to approach it from a non-party point of view. It is true that all of us on this side of the House, and my hon. Friend in particular, are wholeheartedly opposed to this Measure, as we are to Socialism in all its aspects, but there are very many people throughout the country who are not committed to either of the two parties. They are watching this Bill very carefully. I am now speaking of the private consumer rather than the corporate bodies to which my hon. Friend referred. They are watching because they hope and believe that this Measure will bring to them a more efficient and cheaper supply of electricity than they had before.
It is significant that the very first Amendment we put down on the Committee stage of the Bill was to ensure to the general public a cheap and abundant supply of electricity. That was turned down upstairs somewhat ruthlessly. I hope that this Amendment, which seeks to do the same kind of thing by another method, will obtain a more sympathetic hearing from the Minister. I have had the honour to represent two counties in rural Scotland for a number of years. In one of them there has been considerable complaint for a long period of time from private consumers regarding what they consider the excessive rates charged for the electricity supplied to them. It is just this kind of people who will benefit if the Amendment to ensure that these councils should keep a register is approved. I hope I am not anticipating what the Minister will say, but why should a Minister, especially a Socialist Minister, object to the keeping of a register? They always claim specially to speak in the name of the people, the consuming public. In the past they have never been averse to increasing the number of secretarial staffs or civil servants, so why should they object to this proposal?
Of course, I myself object to any increase in bureaucracy but I think that if we are to have it at all, any increase in the secretarial staff caused by the acceptance of this Amendment will prove to have been amply justified at the end of the day. I am sorry to keep the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) waiting for another minute. Judging by the alacrity with which she rose I hope that she intends to show the same eagerness as hon. Members on this side of the House that the Minister should accept this 265 Amendment. I end by saying that I believe that it is in the interests of the public as a whole, particularly in the interests of the poorer sections of the consuming public, that this Amendment should be approved.
§ Mrs. ManningNot having had the advantage of sitting on the Committee upstairs, I do not quite know how it is intended to draw a line between the hundred and one frivolous and vexatious complaints which the ordinary man in the street and his wife make at the electricity offices every day, and the broad questions of policy to which I understand the hon. Gentleman was referring. It is obvious that minor complaints occur every day which do not affect the whole policy of the running of this industry. They are of a frivolous and vexatious kind. Therefore, it surprises me that any hon. Member opposite should have suggested that a register should be kept for the ordinary general complaints from the man in the street. To do so would be to do the very thing about which they are constantly complaining. It would be necessary to keep a hoard of officials in order to register the complaints.
Mr. McKieDoes the hon. Lady by her argument suggest that the complaints of these poor people, the very genuine complaints which arise from great hardship, should go unregarded?
§ Mrs. ManningI did not suggest anything of the kind. I was following the argument of the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) who said that in the Committee upstairs, of which I was not a member, a distinct division was drawn between that kind of complaint and the broader more general complaints on policy. The consultative committees will have nothing to do with political beliefs. Not at any time whilst I have been in the House, or whilst looking through the records of Committees upstairs, has it been suggested that there should be any political purge of these consultative committees—
§ Mr. PickthornThe Minister says so.
§ Mrs. ManningNo. The Minister said nothing of the kind.
§ Mr. PickthornLook in HANSARD tomorrow.
§ Mrs. ManningThat is pure imagination on the part of the Opposition. The 266 only thing that fell from the lips of the Minister was that he would not place on the boards people who had expressed an absolute antipathy to nationalisation, and who, therefore, could not be expected to carry out the work of these boards in the way in which it should be done; but that does not mean that there would be any purge because of their political prejudices. There may be some people on this side of the House who do not believe in the nationalisation of the electricity industry. I do not know; there may be but this question certainly did not extend in any sense at all to the consultative committees, and I think that—
§ Mr. PickthornWill the hon. Lady permit me? She said it did not extend to the consultative committees. Will she permit me to remind her that the Minister said that he would be influenced by, or might be influenced by a municipality to appoint a housewife but not a housewife of a non-Tory type? My recollection is quite clear on that point.
§ Mrs. ManningI am very glad that J was able, with my own ears, to hear what he did say. What he said about this matter was that he would not necessarily be influenced by a member of the Housewives' League. She may be a member of a co-operative society, but he may have no knowledge of that society—[Interruption.] Why should hon. Members oppo.-site begin to worry at the mention of co-operative societies?
§ Mr. RaikesMay I interrupt the hon. Lady? She says she heard what the Minister said with her own ears. Surely, then, she heard the term "housewives of a non-Tory character"?
§ Mrs. ManningThat is quite a different matter. Unfortunately, the term "housewife," which is an honourable term, has been dragged through this House on a purely political basis, and I am very sorry—
§ Mr. Deputy-SpeakerI really must bring the hon. Member back to the Amendment before the House. We are not discussing housewives.
§ Mrs. ManningI thank you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for that. The point at issue is that, if this book is to be kept open, and is to have written in it every day, after the fashion of the Recording Angel, all the frivolous and vexatious 267 complaints which people may make about electricity supply—which they are doing today though, no doubt, they will not do it as much under nationalised industry as under private industry—I think hon. Members who are supporting the Amendment are only asking for something which will be abused and will only produce frivolous and vexatious complaints. I therefore hope the Minister will reject the Amendment.
§ Mr. GaitskellThe suggestion has been made that we should all approach this matter in a non-party spirit, but I am bound to say that the speech which preceded, that remark could hardly be calculated to encourage a non-party attitude in anybody. The remarks of certain hon. Members about my right hon. Friend were a travesty of what took place. It is perfectly true, in passing, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Southport (Mr. R. S. Hudson) knows perfectly well, that a kind of joke often passes between the two Front Benches. My right hon. Friend said, in discussing the type of housewife who may go on a consultative council, that he meant a housewife not, of course, of the Tory type. What he meant by that was the type of person who really is not a housewife at all and does not know the difficulties under which the real housewife labours. [An HON. MEMBER: "Rubbish."] I am simply explaining what my right hon. Friend said, and, as the hon. Member was not here, he does not know whether it is rubbish or not. I do not want to be drawn into what is a complete side-issue in this matter. We axe discussing three Amendments. The first, put down by the Opposition, to page II, line 27, provides that the councils shall keep a register. The second, which is in the name of my right hon. Friend, proposes that the consultative councils may, in effect, appeal to the Minister, thus carrying out, incidentally, a promise to consider an Amendment of this kind which he gave during the Committee stage. The third Amendment. which is put down by the Opposition, I think may fairly be described as an alternative method of achieving somewhat similar results. I would like to deal with the first Amendment separately, and then with the other two.
I want to emphasise once again that it is our desire that these councils-and my 268 right hon. Friend has said this again and again—should work well, be vigorous, and keep in touch with consumers. We welcome any suggestions from any part of the House which will make it easier for them to do this, and which will improve their prospects, but we must be sure, in considering any proposals of this kind, that they will really achieve this object, and that they do not, in effect, tie down the councils in matters of procedure and do not strangle them in red tape. No doubt, hon. Members put their names to the first Amendment assuming that complaints and representations made by consumers would, in the first place, always be made in writing. What is really the assumption of the Amendment is that they would all be considered by the main consultative council; but I would suggest to them that, in practice, neither of these two things is very likely.
The hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) asked whether it was really seriously contended that every little frivolous complaint should be put down in this book. I have said in Committee upstairs, and I do not think that anybody disagrees, that, obviously, the first action which a consumer who is dissatisfied will take is not to rush off to the consultative committee. He will, in fact, go to the area board's offices in precisely the same way as he now goes to the municipal or company office and make his complaint. In the second place, supposing that he is dissatisfied with his treatment by the local office of the area board, under the Bill, as now amended in Committee, it is provided that every consultative council shall prepare and submit to the Minister a scheme for the appointment of district committees. Therefore, his next step is not to go to the main consultative council, but to the district committee, and it is there, I suggest to hon. Members opposite, that the more important complaints which have not been settled at the local office level will emerge; but, there is nothing, of course, about district committees in the Amendment which we are discussing.
Again, it is well known, I suppose, to a good many hon. Members that constituents frequently prefer to see them personally and make oral representations on all sorts of matters and it is in precisely the same way, I imagine, that it is likely that consumers will make their complaints. It is not likely that they will 269 give all their complaints in writing, even to a district committee, and I do not see why that should be assumed. Indeed, the implication rather surprised me in view of the dislike which the Tory Party are alleged to have of bureaucracy and red tape. They are rather assuming that everything is to be in writing and that a form would have to be filled in before anyone could make an application
§ 6.30 p.m.
§ Mr. PickthornWill the hon. Gentleman forgive me? He is rather unchivalrous in destroying his supporter from behind He ought, at least, to read this thing carefully. What we are talking about here are the complaints made to this advisory body. I am glad that he explains the distinction between these complaints and those made at two lower levels which, it is hoped, will save it the more numerous and less important ones. But that makes the argument which the hon. Gentleman is addressing to the House entirely false.
§ Mr. GaitskellIf the hon. Member will allow me, he will find that I am coming to the point which he makes. However, it was necessary to correct the false impression which his own speech created. There is no reason why we should formalise this process. But there is another matter which is also really ignored in this Amendment. It is assumed that every complaint is actually dealt with by the council itself. If I may say so, that is really carrying the conception of part-time bodies to an absurd extent. Obviously, a large number of these complaints will be dealt with by officials, and it is proper that they should be so dealt with, but, again, if one is to go by the Amendment. it is necessary to provide exactly what the council thought about a particular complaint. Of course, many cases will never reach them at all.
The hon. Member the senior Burgess, for Cambridge University said, in effect, just now, that he accepted my version of what would happen. Presumably, therefore, what he is concerned with in this Amendment are only the representations which actually reach the main consultative council. That may be a possible interpretation. If that is so—and it is also a question of the complaints which are considered by them at the centre—what he is really seeking is to make available to the public the proceedings of the councils. There is not very much 270 difference in that. By far the greater part of their time will, no doubt, be taken up in considering representations made to them, and that is really what the Amendment suggests. That, at least, is something worth considering.
What is quite out of the question, m my opinion, is, as my hon. Friend suggested, that every conceivable complaint which comes through all these various district committees should somewhere be recorded. If that is the idea, it is tantamount to saying that the whole of the files of these district committees and consultative councils should be open for inspection. I do not think that that can be seriously maintained. I see the right hon. Gentleman opposite nodding his assent, and we can, therefore, consider the matter in a much narrower context.
On that point, I would like to submit to the House these considerations. Firstly, it may not always be desirable that these records of proceedings should be made public. We know quite well that there is a provision in the Bill for the Minister to give directions to the central authority on security grounds to refuse to disclose directions which he has given on security grounds. This is not, if I may say so, a completely academic matter. For instance, supposing that a body of consumers complained because in some other part of the area more rapid development was taking place. It may well be that for reasons of national security it had been found necessary to develop one part of the country before another, but it would be most unwise and undesirable for that information to become publicly known. It would be necessary, therefore, to keep it from the public. In any case, surely this is not a matter which we need to put into the Bill. We are really concerned here with the proceedings of the councils. Some of those proceedings will be laid down under regulations made under Subsection (I2) of this Clause. For the rest, they will be left, as they should be left, I suggest, to the consultative councils themselves.
May I now turn briefly to the other two Amendments? As those who were Members of the Committee will recall, I promised that we would consider an Amendment which, in effect, would enable the consultative council, if it were dissatisfied with what the central authority had said or done as a result of its representations, to go to the Minister. We have provided 271 for that in our Amendment, and I think that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will agree that we have drawn the Amendment pretty widely. It they are dissatisfied on any matters arising out of representations made by them—that would include, incidentally, the point of not being informed—it would be perfectly proper for them to go to the Minister and complain. If the Minister is satisfied that they have made their point, and if a defect is disclosed in the area board's general plans, he can then tell the central authority that they must put it right. I think that really gives exactly the right relationship between the consultative council,' the Minister, the central authority, and the area board. We do not want the consultative council coming along and expecting the Minister to intervene in every single individual case. That would be an impossible situation, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman or any of his hon. Friends would press for that. We say that, if, as a result of these representations, it is discovered that there is something wrong with the plans and arrangements, then the Minister steps in and says, "You must put this right." I suggest that is a more satisfactory way of doing it than the alternative suggested by the Opposition. On those grounds, I must asked the House to reject this and the other Opposition Amendment.
If I am in Order, Mr. Speaker, I would now like to move our Amendment, but I should like to have your guidance in the matter.
Mr. PickthonOn a point of Order. I should like to ask for your Ruling about that, Mr. Speaker. Can the hon. Gentleman move another Amendment before this one is disposed of?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman was asking a question, but the hon. Gentleman the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) got up on a point of Order before he had finished.
§ Mr. GaitskellI think it was suggested that that is what I should do. I should be glad to have your guidance, Sir.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe Amendment must be moved after this Amendment which is before the House has been disposed of.
§ Mr. GaitskellIn that case, I would conclude by saying that I feel that these other Amendments are unnecessary and 272 bureaucratic, and that our Amendment gives us all we need in the matter.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotThe Debate, of course, is to be taken generally to cover a fairly wide field, although I understand that the other Amendments are to be moved formally. The speech which the Minister has just addressed to the House is a striking example of the difficulties into which the Government are being led by the procedure which they have now adopted, that is to say, the procedure of destroying representative institutions and then attempting to substitute nominated bodies. Already 66 per cent. of the electricity in this country is supplied by public bodies whose proceedings are conducted in public with the public having full access to those proceedings which are in print. The Minister has just made a suggestion, as a great concession that the public might be allowed to learn, after these bodies have discussed and decided matters, what they have been discussing and deciding. New bodies —according to the Minister's definition, the consultative councils—are to succeed and, indeed, to be superior to the old elected local authorities of this country under whom, as I say, 66 per cent. of the electricity supplied in this country is provided at the moment.
The Minister's suggestion is all the more extraordinary because when we were in Committee he made it very clear that he was in great difficulties in this matter. He said:
When we consider the present set-up of the municipalities, we find there are undoubtedly great advantages in having an electrical committee, which represents the consumers, directly in touch with their own officials who are running the show to a large extent. We think it would be difficult to put it into the Bill, but we think some arrangements might be made at the district level for the district offices of the Area Boards to be in touch with these district committees. I have had municipal engineers coming up to me and saying it is very convenient for the consumer to be able to go to the committee and ask for an opinion on some local point. We find it difficult to provide for that in the Bill.He went on to say:We do not regard district committees or consultative councils as having any executive authority.That is a distinction between those bodies and the local authorities who were able not merely to receive complaints but to act upon and remedy them. He continued: 273They are purely advisory bodies, and they must remain so, but as such we believe they will perform a useful function. We do not claim that this experiment is bound inevitably to succeed.— [OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee E, 18th March, 1947; c. 300.]On these shadowy grounds the Government are taking away the democratic control of 66 per cent. of the electrical supply of this country from the bodies who for 50 years have been operating it under every kind of statutory safeguard in this House. The Government are repealing all those statutory safeguards, and asking us to agree to committees which will operate in the fettered way in which the Clause and the Minister's Amendment makes it clear they will operate. Is it surprising that we boggle at the proposal? The Minister's Amendment which we are discussing, but upon which we shall not vote until later, says:A consultative Council may …make representations to the Minister on any matters arising out of representations made by them to the Central Authority …and if it appears to the Minister …that a defect is disclosed …he may notify the defect to the Central Authority.Every member of the consultative council is to be appointed by the Minister and is to be subject to mental tests of one kind or another, which the Minister this afternoon has declared himself unable to indicate to the House. If this tame rabbit gets up on its hind legs and chooses to go through a few perfunctory jumps, the Minister may or may not pay attention to its performance. The municipalities of London, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen have, in their day, had power and influence and have not hesitated to make representations to Ministers and even higher authorities when they felt like it.This is the way in which the totalitarian State moves. It abolishes the representative body and substitutes a body nominated by the Minister. It is, in fact, the definition of the totalitarian State. If one wants to go further, we have the speech of the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) who referred to "these frivolous and vexatious complaints." It is the power and privilege of responsible local authorities, and indeed of this House, that small as well as great complaints can be brought before them, and that if a person is in difficulty he can complain to an executive body which will do something to remedy the complaint.
§ Mrs. ManningThe Minister said that the complaints could not be registered in a book. That was the point.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotThe Minister said that he would consider the suggestion that minutes of the bodies should be kept and should be available for the public. He said that after two days of Second Reading and one and a half days of Report stage. The battle over the suggestion that the Press should have access to proceedings of public bodies is a battle that is being fought out again and again, and the Minister has indicated how far we have gone along this path.
6.45 p.m.
The speech of the Parliamentary Secretary, as always, was persuasive, informative and courteous and he did his best to recommend these proposals to the House and to indicate why the House should vote against the proposals of my hon. Friends. But he cannot say more than he said in the speech upstairs in Committee, to the effect that these are experiments and that it is doubtful whether these experiments will succeed. When I hear the Minister cataloguing what he will find it necessary to do before he allows anybody to sit even on such a consultative council, I have grave doubts about the value of such a body, and I doubt also whether the procedure laid down in this Clause and in the Amendment is such as to lead to a rapid or speedy redress of grievances. There is only one way in which to ensure that redress of grievances. That is by withholding. supply. That is an old point in this House. The local authorities have that power, and it is being removed. The supply is no longer in the hands of these bodies which he is setting up. Lacking those powers, they lack effective authority and they will do nothing to bring about what the Minister desires. We have put down an Amendment which, admittedly, will not entirely remedy this matter but will go a certain distance towards doing so.
§ Mr. RaikesI am very disappointed at the attitude of the Parliamentary Secretary. He does not seem to realise that these consultative councils are the only safeguards now left to the public after many safeguards have been taken away. I was also profoundly shocked when the hon. Member for Epping (Mrs. Manning) said that every day there are vexatious 275 and frivolous complaints made by the ordinary householder and his wife. I regard that sort of observation as an insult to the public. No doubt, hon. Members opposite regard any sort of complaint that is made against the working of their Government as being frivolous and vexatious. I was also astounded when the Parliamentary Secretary rebuked my hon. Friend the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn) because he said my hon. Friend had misrepresented the Minister in regard to his definition of a Tory housewife. The Parliamentary Secretary said that by a Tory housewife who is incapable of becoming a member of a consultative council, the Minister meant someone who is not really a housewife at all. It was a rotten definition. The right hon. Gentleman has taken the utmost care not to strike out from acting those very people who are the most vocal and who are not housewives; I refer to those so-called housewives who denounce the Housewives League in this House, and who take all their meals in the House of Commons.
§ Mr. J. HudsonThe right hon. and gallant Member for the Scottish Universities (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) spoke of the Government getting into difficulties as a result of the attitude they are now taking. I should say the difficulties into which the Government have got cannot compare with the difficulties in which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman found himself when he had to support the terms of the Amendment. This Amendment deals with the question of a register, and not the question of Tory housewives or any other sort of housewives. It deals with a register in which all sorts of complaints have to be kept. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman went on to tell us that during the time that electricity was managed by the municipalities—and he said that 66 per cent. of it was managed by municipalities—some method of this sort has been followed. I deny that statement. It is nothing but a farrago of nonsense to say that what is proposed here in this Amendment has been the practice of the
§ municipalities of this country. Indeed, the municipalities know perfectly well that the great mass of complaints that come before them can be dealt with sensibly by their officials, and that there is no need to keep books. There is no need to fill forms. The filling of forms, which for so long has been a matter of complaint against us by hon. Gentlemen opposite, is now asked for by them in this Amendment, in the filling up of the registers they want kept. I submit that no case has been made at all, and I hope that the proposals will not be accepted.
§ Mr. Gallacher (Fife, West)I want to say one word on this Amendment. It is possible to so overload an organisation with details as to destroy the functioning of the body. The hon. Member the senior Burgess for Cambridge University (Mr. Pickthorn), who moved the Amendment, said that Tories might be opposed to nationalisation, but they wanted to see these bodies functioning efficiently. I do not believe that. In two years' time, when we are preparing for a General Election, the Tories will not come here to say that nationalisation has been a success.
§ Mr. SpeakerWe are not discussing nationalisation. We are discussing whether or not a register should be kept.
Mr. GallachcrI was dealing with the argument the hon. Member the senior Burgess for Cambridge University put forward on this particular Amendment. In the course of it he made a very strong attack on the Minister for something the Minister was alleged to have said about the people who had been on the boards or the advisory councils, and other hon. Members have followed him, and these sneers are attacks on the Minister. I would say here just this—that I would as soon nominate a Tory to be a member of one of these councils as a Tory would nominate me for a tribunal dealing with compensation for landlords.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 101; Noes, 284.
279| Division No. 277.] | AYES. | [6.53 p.m |
| Assheton, Rt. Hon. R | Birch, Nigel | Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. |
| Astor, Hon. M. | Boles, Lt.-Col. D. C. (Wells) | Butcher, H. W. |
| Barlow, Sir J. | Bower, N. | Channon, H. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Boyd-Carpenler, J. A. | Clarke, Col. R. S, |
| Bennett, Sir P. | Braithwaite Lt.-Comdr. J. G. | Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G. |
| Cooper-Key, E. M. | Kerr, Sir J. Graham | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir H. |
| Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) | Lambert, Hon. G. | Osborne, C. |
| Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E | Lancaster, Col. C. G | Pete, Brig. C. H. M. |
| Crowder, Capt. John E. | Langford-Holt, J. | Pickthorn, K |
| Cuthbert, W. N. | Law, Rt. Hon. R. K. | Ponsonby, Col. C E |
| Darling, Sir W. Y | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Prior-Palmer, Brig 0. |
| Drayson, G. B | Linstead, H. N. | Raikes, H. V. |
| Drewe, C | Low, Brig A. R W | Ramsay, Maj. S. |
| Duthie, W. S. | Lucas, Major Sir J. | Rayner, Brig. R. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter. | Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. | Roberts, H. (Handsworth) |
| Foster, J. G. (Northwich) | MacAndrew, Col. Sir C | Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland |
| Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone) | McCallum, Maj. D. | Savory, Prof. D. L. |
| Fraser, Sir I (Lonsdale) | Macdonald, Sir P. (I. of Wight) | Scott, Lord W |
| Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D. | Mackeson, Brig. H R. | Smiles, Lt.-Col. Sir W |
| Gammans, L. D. | McKie, J. H (Galloway) | Snadden, W. M. |
| Grant, Lady | Maclay, Hon. J. S | Spence, H. R |
| Gridley, Sir A | MacLeod, J. | Stanley, Rt Hon O |
| Grimston, R. V. | Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Hannon, Sir P. (Moseley) | Macpherson, N. (Dumfries) | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N |
| Harvey, Air-Cmdre. A. V | Maitland, Comdr. J. W. | Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A F |
| Haughton, S. G. | Manningham-Buller, R. E | Touche, G. C. |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C | Marshall, D (Bodmin) | Vane, W. M. F. |
| Henderson, John (Cathcart) | Marshall, S. H. (Sutton) | Walker-Smith, D |
| Hollis, M. C. | Medlicott, F. | Ward, Hon. G. R |
| Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) | Mellor, Sir J. | Wheatley, Col. M. J. |
| Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J | Morris-Jones, Sir H. | Willoughby de Eresby Lord |
| Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.) | Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury) | |
| Hutchison, Col. J. R. (Glasgow, C.) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W S. (Cirencester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES |
| Jarvis, Sir J. | Navrn-Spenoe, Sir B | Major Conant and |
| Jeffreys, General Sir G. | Noble, Comdr A. H. P | Mr. Studholme. |
| NOES | ||
| Adams, Richard (Balham) | Davies, Ernest (Enfield) | Hastings, Dr. Somerville |
| Allen, A. C (Bosworth) | Davies, Harold (Leek) | Herbison, Miss M |
| Alpass, J. H. | Davies, Hayden (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Hicks, G. |
| Anderson, A (Motherwell) | Deer, G. | Hobson, C. R. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Delargy, H. J. | Holman, P. |
| Attewell, H. C. | Diamond, J. | Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) |
| Austin, H. Lewis | Dodds, N. N | House, G. |
| Awbery, S. S. | Driberg, T. E. N. | Hoy, J. |
| Ayles, W H. | Dumpleton, C. W. | Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.) |
| Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B | Durbin, E. F. M. | Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) |
| Bacon, Miss A. | Ede, Rt. Hon. J C. | Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.) |
| Baird, J. | Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) |
| Barstow, P. G. | Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) | Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) |
| Barton, C. | Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) | Irving, W. J |
| Beattie, J. (Belfast, W.) | Evans, E. (Lowestoft) | Janner, B. |
| Bechervaise, A. E | Evans, John (Ogmore) | Jay, D. P. T. |
| Benson, G. | Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury) | Jeger, G. (Winchester) |
| Berry, H. | Ewart, R. | Jeger, Dr S. W (St. Pancras, S.E.) |
| Beswick, F. | Fairhurst, F. | John, W. |
| Bevan, Rt, Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) | Farthing, W. J. | Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) |
| Binns, J. | Fernyhough, E. | Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) |
| Blenkinsop, A. | Field, Captain W. J. | Kendall, W. D |
| Blyton, W. R. | Fletcher, E. G M. (Islington, E.) | Kenyon, C. |
| Bottomley, A. G | Follick, M | Key, C. W. |
| Bowdon, Flg.-Offr. H. W. | Foot, M. M. | King, E. M |
| Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) | Forman, J. C. | Kinley, J. |
| Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pt, Exch'ge) | Fraser, T. (Hamilton,) | Kirby, B. V |
| Braddock, T (Mitcham) | Freeman, Peter (Newport) | Lang, G. |
| Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell) | Gaitskell, H. T. N. | Layers, S. |
| Brown, T J. (Ince) | GaHacher, W. | Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J. |
| Brown, W. J. (Rugby) | Ganley, Mrs. C S. | Lee, F. (Hulme) |
| Bruce, Major D. W. T. | George, Lady M Lloyd (Anglesey) | Lee, Miss J (Cannock) |
| Buchanan, G. | Gibbins, J. | Leonard, W |
| Burke, W. A | Gibson, C. W. | Leslie, J. R. |
| Byers, Frank | Cilzean, A. | Levy, B. W |
| Callaghan, James | Glanville, J. E. (Consett) | Lewis, A W. J. (Upton) |
| Carmichael, James | Goodrich, H. E. | Lewis, J (Bolton) |
| Chamberlain, R. A | Gordon-Walker, P. C | Lindgren, G, S. |
| Champion, A. J. | Greenwood, A W J (Heywood) | Lipson, D. L, |
| Chafer, D. | Grey, C, F. | Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. |
| Chetwynd, G. R | Grierson, E. | Logan, D. G. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) | Longden, F |
| Cocks, F. S. | Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) | Lyne, A. W |
| Collindridge, F | Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side) | McAdam, W. |
| Collins, V. J | Gunter, R. J. | McEnlee, V. La.J |
| Colman, Miss G. M | Guy, W. H. | McGhee, H. G. |
| Comyns, Dr. L. | Haire, John E (Wycombe) | Mack, J. D. |
| Corlett, Dr. J. | Hale, Leslie | McKay, J. (Wallsend) |
| Corvedale, Viscount | Hall, W. G. | McKinlay, A. S. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hamilton, Lieut.-Col R | McLeavy, F. |
| Daggar, G. | Hardman, D. R | Mainwaring, W H |
| Daines, P | Hardy, E. A | ,Mallalieu, J. P. W. |
| Mann, Mrs J. | Ranger, J | Thorneycroft [...] (Clayton) |
| Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.) | Rankin, J. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Manning, Mrs L. (Epping) | Rees-Williams, D R | Tiffany, S. |
| Mathers, G. | Reeves, J. | Timmons, J. |
| Medland, H. M | Robens, A. | Titterington, M. P |
| Mellish, R. J. | Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth) | Tolley, L. |
| Messer, F. | Robertson, J. J. (Berwick) | Turner-Samuels. M |
| Middleton, Mrs. L. | Rogers, G. H. R. | Ungoed-Thomas, L. |
| Mikardo, Ian | Ross, William (Kilmarnock) | Usborne, Henry |
| Mitchison, G. R | Royle, C | Vernon, Maj W. F |
| Moody, A. S. | Sargood, R | Viant, S. P. |
| Morgan, Dr. H B. | Scollan, T | Wadsworth, G |
| Morley, R. | Scott-Elliot, W | Walkden, E. |
| Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.) | Segal, Dr. S. | Walker, G H |
| Morris, P. (Swansea, W.) | Shackleton, E. A. A | Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst) |
| Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen) | Sharp, Granville | Wallace, H W. (Waithamstow, E.) |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (L'wish'm, E.) | Shawcross, C N. (Widnes) | Warbey, W. N. |
| Moyle, A. | Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E. | Watkins, T E |
| Nally, W. | Shurmer, P. | Watson, W. M. |
| Naylor. T E. | Silverman, J. (Erdington) | Webb, M. (Bradford, C.) |
| Neal H. (Claycross) | Simmons, C. J. | Wells, P. L. (Faversham) |
| Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) | Skeffington, A. M. | West, D. G. |
| Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford) | Skeffington-Lodge, T C | Westwood, Rt. Hon J |
| Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon P. J. (Derby) | Skinnard, F. W. | White, H (Derbyshire, N.E.) |
| Noel-Buxton, Lady | Smith, C. (Colchestor) | Whiteley, Rt. Hon. w |
| Oldfield, W. H. | Smith, H N. (Nottingham, S) | Wigg, Col. G. E. |
| Oliver, G. H | Smith, S H. (Hull S.W) | Wilkes, L. |
| Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury) | Solley, L. J. | Wilkins, W. A. |
| Palmer, A. M. F. | Scskice, Maj. Sir F | Willey, O. G. (Cleveland) |
| Pargiter, G. A | Sparks, J. A. | Williams, J. (Kelvingrove) |
| Parkin, B. T | Stamford, W | Williams, W. R. (Heston) |
| Paton, J. (Norwich) | Steele, T. | Williamson, T |
| Pearson, A | Stephen, C | Willis, E. |
| Peart, Thomas F. | Stewart, Michael (Fultham E.) | Wills, Mrs. E. A. |
| Piratin, P. | Stubbs, A. E. | Woodburn, A |
| Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield) | Swingler, S. | Woods, G. S |
| Popplewell, E, | Sylvester, G. 0 | Wyatt, W. |
| Porter, G. (Leeds) | Taylor, H B (Mansfield) | Yates, V. F. |
| Price, M. Philips | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Pritt, D. N. | Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet) | Zilliacus, K |
| Proctor, W. T | Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare) | |
| Pryde, D. J. | Thomas, I. O (Wrekin) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Pursey, Cmdr. H | Thomas, George (Cardiff) | Mr. Joseph Henderson and |
| Randall, H E | Thomson, Rt. Hon. G R. (Ed'b'gh, E.) | Mr. Hannan. |
§ 7.0 p.m.
§ Mr. RaikesI beg to move, in page II, line 30, after "Board," to insert "and with the Council."
This is a small but, I think, useful Amendment. Its object is to require that the Central Authority should consult with the council and the board before making a decision. At the moment the Central Authority is required to consult only with the board, and is not required to consult with the consultative council which made the original representation. The more advice we have on both sides, the better.
§ Colonel Crosthwaite-EyreI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. GaitskellWe are quite prepared to accept this Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. GaitskellI beg to move, in page II, line 35, at the end, to insert:
(8) A Consultative Council may, after consultation with the Central Authority, make representations to the Minister on any matters arising out of representations made by them to the Central Authority under Subsection (6) 280 of this Section, and if it appears to the Minister, after consultation with the Area Board and with the Council, that a defect is disclosed in the Area Board's general plans and arrangements for the exercise and performance of their functions under this Act, he may notify the defect to the Central Authority, and thereupon the Central Authority shall give to the Area Board such directions as they think necessary for remedying the defect, and the Area Board shall give effect to any such directions.
§ Mr. SpeakerDoes not the hon. Gentleman wish to insert an Amendment?
§ Mr. GaitskellWe have already discussed this Amendment, and I thought the understanding was that I should move it formally at this stage.
§ Mr. SpeakerI thought-there was an Amendment which the hon. Member wanted to move, about which he asked me during the previous discussion. I thought the hon. Member wanted to insert the words "and with the Council" after the words "Area Board."
§ Mr. GaitskellI am sorry there has been this misunderstanding. The hon. Member for Wavertree (Mr. Raikes) 281 moved an Amendment in page II, line 30, after "Board," to insert "and with the Council," which the Government accepted just now, and which was approved by the House. I thought we were now taking the Amendment in page II, line 35, at the end, to insert the new Subsection (8). I merely want to move that formally. I do not wish to make any Amendment to it.
§ Mr. SpeakerIt is perhaps my mistake. I thought that, having accepted the other Amendment to insert the words "and with the Council," it was desired that those words should be inserted in line 4 of the new Subsection (8), after "Area Board."
§ Mr. GaitskellI had not understood that. Perhaps we could consider that and, if necessary, have an Amendment made in another place.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, in page 12, line 12, after "individual," to insert:
such allowances in respect of any loss of remunerative time and.This is a minor Amendment which relates to the provision of the payment of expenses on account of loss of time incurred.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonI take it that steps will be taken to ensure that in these cases where travelling allowances and allowances for loss of remunerative time are claimed the person who claims them gives reasonable proof that, in fact, he did lose the time, and that he was not paid for that loss by some other body. Otherwise, he would be paid by both. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there has been a great tendency in certain areas for that to happen. One would hope that the Minister would issue such directions as will ensure that, in fact, persons claim only once, and put in vouchers to prove that they spent the money or lost the remunerative time, as the case may be.
§ Mr. ShinwellI can certainly give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. We will take appropriate measures to prevent any malpractice.
§ Amendment agreed to.
282§ Mr. WestwoodI beg to move, in page 12, line 41, after "section," to insert, "other than Subsection (8)."
This Amendment is consequential upon the inclusion of the new Subsection as a result of our previous discussion. Provisions comparable with the new Subsection (8) already accepted by the House are already included in the Bill in relation to the North of Scotland Board. This Amendment accordingly provides that the new Subsection shall not apply to the Board.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotI should like the Minister to explain to us where these provisions are included in the Bill. It is very desirable that we should know.
§ Mr. WestwoodIn the case of the North of Scotland district, Subsections (6) and (7) of Clause 7, as adapted by Subsection (13) already provide that the consultative council for the district may make representations to the Secretary of State with regard to the North of Scotland Board's general plans and arrangements; and the Secretary of State may give directions to the Board for remedying any defect disclosed.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ElliotPerhaps I might speak again, with the leave of the House. I do not think the Secretary of State's explanation quite clears our minds on this side of the House. There seems to be some very complicated system of internal reference within the Clause. Perhaps it might be made somewhat clearer in another place. I take it from the Secretary of State that the position is as stated, but I am sure he will not deny that it is obscure. I should very much like to know whether it would not be possible for us to make a somewhat more tidy job, to use a colloquial phrase, before passing from it.
§ Mr. WestwoodWe consider that this is a tidy job. I have tried to make it clear, and I thought I had met the point raised by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. I have given him the Subsections, and so on, which really make the provisions so far as the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board is concerned.
§ Mr. R. S. HudsonIt is very difficult for a layman to follow. The Amendment, in page 11, line 35, inserts Subsection (8), which is a new provision made as a result of our representations in Committee. Is 283 the Secretary of State for Scotland suggesting that this provision, which appears as a new provision in the English Bill, was always in the North of Scotland Act?
§ Mr. GaitskellIn the North of Scotland, as the Bill was originally drafted, the consultative council has the right to go, not to the Central Authority, but to the Secretary of State, because there is no central authority outside the North of Scotland Board; the Board is the central authority and the area board. There is no need, therefore, for provision to be made as far as the North of Scotland is concerned.
§ Amendment agreed to.