HC Deb 21 April 1947 vol 436 cc715-20
Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I beg to move, in page 39, line 46, at the end, to insert: Provided that any order made by the Secretary of State dispensing with any of the requirements of regulations made under this Part of this Act shall be laid before Parliament. This again deals with the dispensing power of the Secretary of State, and we trust that it may be possible for him to meet us on this point. What it amounts to is that if the Secretary of State dispenses with any of the requirements of regulations made under this Part of the Act he should tell us about it, and I think that is reasonable. I will not deny that I also think it should be laid before us in such a form that it could be prayed against, if necessary. The Secretary of State has several times said that these are administrative acts and should not really be brought into the ambit of Parliamentary scrutiny, but considering that the regulations will have to be laid before and be approved by Parliament, either tacitly or after Debate, it does not seem unreasonable to suggest that if they are altered the alterations should similarly be laid before Parliament. I trust the Lord Advocate will not think that in such a case publication in the Press or otherwise would be adequate, for it really is not quite adequate to say that a thing which has been sanctioned by the King, Lords and Commons should be altered with no more notice than a paragraph in a daily paper. The Secretary of State will for his own protection require the backing of Parliament when he is taking these exceptional measures, and I suggest that from his own point of view as well as from the point of view of Parliament it would be useful if this Amendment could be written into the Bill.

Mr. Westwood

This Amendment would seek to limit the time during which the Secretary of State could use these exceptional powers.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

rose—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

I think the right hon. Gentleman is taking the wrong Amendment. We are taking the first Amendment, which begins, "Provided that any order …"

Mr. Westwood

I am sorry. I am afraid I cannot see my way to accept the Amendment. It was fairly well argued before, and for the reasons which were given in Committee I am afraid I cannot see my way to accept it.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I sympathise with the Secretary of State in the disquieting experience of suddenly finding that the Amendment has been "castled," so to speak, and that the argument is not quite germane to the Amendment. It is, I agree, a very disconcerting experience, but I do not think the speech appropriate to the refusal by Parliament to allow the Secretary of State to continue powers for 18 months is quite adequate to the proposal that the Secretary of State may have the power for ever and a day, if he pleases, so long as he informs us about it. I do not think it is quite true to say that it was fully argued out before. In referring to the arguments used the Secretary of State is thinking of the proposal about 18 months, which was argued out, and it is true that it was then said that he had got power under the National Insurance Acts to take steps to make sure that an adequate health service was maintained.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman seems to be falling into the same error as the Secretary of State, and to be dealing with the Amendment that is not being called.

Lieut.-Colonel Elliot

I was referring to that Amendment only in so far as it was necessary to explain that it was not the Amendment under discussion. On the Amendment now before us, I beg the Secretary of State, in view of the exceptional circumstances, to give the matter consideration in the interval between now and the time when the Bill reaches another place.

Mr. Westwood

I speak again only by leave of the House, and as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman was honest enough to admit that on more than one occasion he had found himself in the same position as I was in, I will admit that I was in that position. The Amendment now before the House, as it is drafted, is altogether ineffective, because the Clause, as it stands, does not provide for the requirements of regulations to be disposed with by an Order. As I have indicated already, this question was fully discussed in Committee on an Amendment moved by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Hill head (Mr. J. S. C. Reid), and in that discussion I undertook to look into the suggestion that I might be obliged to draw the attention of Parliament to any case when a regulation approved of by Parliament was being dispensed with by an executive act of the Secretary of State.

I have fully considered this, in accordance with the promise which I gave in Committee, and I am sure that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will agree with me that I took the trouble of writing personally to him to explain the position. I explained that there is no intention of operating the Clause, if the case for this operation ever arises, in any large-scale way—it would be quite an inappropriate exercise of the powers which Parliament will give me to do so—so that any arrangements made under the proposals now before the House would be limited to particular localities where special difficulties had been experienced. It seems hardly necessary to trouble Parliament with a matter of such limited application, and I agree that any exercise of the exceptional power which is conferred by the Clause itself will be a matter of considerable interest, and I have no hesitation—I hope I am right in assuming that it was for the purpose of getting this further assurance in the House that the matter has been raised—in giving an assurance that the circumstances of any such exercise would be recorded in the annual report of the Department of Health for Scotland, which is laid before the House,

or in some corresponding publication. The power conferred by this Clause closely resembles a provision included in the National Health Insurance Act, and that provision does not seem ever to have been used in Scotland, but was, I think on three occasions during the war, used in England. For these reasons, I ask the House to reject the Amendment.

Commander Galbraith

I think that what the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State said was that he intends only to make very small alterations, and therefore, it is not worth notifying the House of those alterations, but, after all, are we not dealing with regulations which have received the assent of, or at least been laid before, the House? If that is so, I do not think it is right or proper' that the Secretary of State by order ought to dispense with these regulations without informing the House. That is the view we take here, that it is not proper, it is not right, it is not in accordance with the dignity of the House that it should be treated in that way. For those reasons, we feel that unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared either to accept the Amendment on the Order Paper, or to give us an undertaking that he will deal with the matter in another place, we shall require to divide the House on this Amendment.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 71; Noes, 228.

Division No. 129.] AYES. [9.15 p.m.
Agnew, Gmdr P. G. Gates, Maj. E. E. Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Beamish, Maj. T V. H. Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. Nield, B. (Chester)
Birch, Nigel Grant, Lady Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Bowen, R. Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge) Poole, O B. S. (Oswestry)
Bower, N. Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C Ropner, Col. L.
Boyd-Carpenter, J. A. Hogg, Hon. Q Scott, Lord W.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G T. Hollis, M C Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)
Carson, E. Hurd, A. Snadden, W. M.
Clarke, Col. R. S. Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh, W.) Spearman, A. C. M
Conant, Maj. R. J. E. Kerr, Sir J. Graham Spence, H. R.
Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow) Linstead, H. N. Stuart, Rt. Hon. J (Moray)
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E Lipson, D. L. Sutcliffe, H
Cuthbert, W. N. Lucas-Tooth, Sir H. Thorneycroft, G. E. P (Monmouth)
Darling, Sir W. Y. McCallum, Maj. D Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Digby, S. W. Macdonald, Sir P. (l. of Wight) Tharp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F
Dodds-Parker, A. D. McKie, J. H. (Galloway) Vane, W. M. F.
Dower, Lt.-Col. A. V. G. (Penrith) Maclay, Hon. J. S. Walker-Smith, D
Drayson, G. B. Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries) Ward, Hon. G. R
Drewe, C. Maitland, Comdr. J. W. Wheatley, Colonel M. J
Duthie, W. S Manningham-Buller, R. E. Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)
Eccles, D. M. Marlowe, A. A. H. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
Foster, J. G. (Northwich) Mellor, Sir J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Gage, C. Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T. Mr. Studholme and
Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D Morrison, Maj. J. G (Salisbury) Major Ramsay.
NOES
Adams, Richard (Balham) Guest, Dr. L. Haden Ranger, J.
Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South) Gunter, R. J. Rankin, J.
Allen, A. C. (Bosworth) Guy, W. H. Reeves, J.
Alpass, J. H. Hale, Leslie Reid, T. (Swindon)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Hall, W. G. Richards, R.
Attewell, H. C. Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R. Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Austin, H. Lewis Hardy, E. A. Ross, Willlam (Kilmarnock)
Awbery, S. S. Harrison, J. Sargood, R.
Ayles, W. H. Hastings, Dr. Somerville Scollan, T.
Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B. Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Scott-Elliot, W.
Bacon, Miss A. Herbison, Miss M. Shackleton, E. A A
Baird J Holman, P. Sharp, Granville
Balfour, A. Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth) Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Barstow, P. G. House, G. Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Barton, C. Hoy, J. Shurmer, P.
Battley, J. R. Hubbard, T. Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Bechervaise, A. E. Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.) Simmons, C. J.
Benson, G Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme) Skeffington, A. M.
Berry, H. Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.) Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale) Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe) Skinnard, F. W.
Bing, G. H. C. Irving, W. J. Smith, C (Colchester)
Binns, J. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A. Smith, Ellis (Stoke)
Blackburn, A. R. Janner, B. Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)
Blenkinsop, A Jay D. P. T. Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Boardman, H. Jeger, G. (Winchester) Soskice, Maj. Sir F.
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton) Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools) Sparks, J. A.
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge) Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow) Stamford, W.
Brook, D. (Halifax) Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin) Steele, T.
Brooks, T J. (Rothwell) Keenan, W. Stephen, C.
Brown, George (Belper) Kenyon, C. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
Brown, T. J. (Ince) King, E. M. Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)
Buchanan, G. Kinley, J. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Burden, T. W. Lee, F. (Hulme) Stross, Dr. B.
Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.) Lee, Miss J. (Canneck) Swingler, S.
Champion, A. J. Leslie, J. R. Sylvester, G. O.
Cobb, F. A. Levy, B. W. Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Cocks, F. S. Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton) Taylor, R J. (Morpeth)
Coldrick, W Lipton, Lt.-Col. M. Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Collindridge, F. Longden, F. Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Collins, V J McAdam, W. Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Colman, Miss G.M McAllister, G. Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Comyns, Dr. L McGhee, H. G. Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Cook, T. F. Mack, J. D. Thurtle, E.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G. McKay, J. (Wallsend) Tiffany, S.
Corbet, Mrs. F. K (Camb'well, N.W.) Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.) Titterington, M. F.
Corlett, Dr. J. McLeavy, F Tolley, L.
Corvedale, Viscount MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles) Turner-Samuels, M.
Cove, W. G. Macpherson, T. (Romford) Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Crawley, A. Mallalieu, J. P. W. Usborne, Henry
Grossman, R. H. S. Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping) Vernon, Maj. W. F.
Daggar, G Marquand, H. A. Viant, S. P.
Daines, P Messer, F. Walkden, E.
Davies, Edward (Burslem) Middleton, Mrs. L Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Davies, Harold (Leek) Mikardo, Ian Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Deer, G. Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R. Weitzman, D.
Diamond, J Mitchison, G. R. Wells, P. L. (Faversham)
Dobbie, W. Moody, A. S. Wells, W T. (Walsall)
Dodds, N. N Morgan, Dr. H. B. Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.
Donovan, T. Morris, P. (Swansea, W[...].) White, C. F. (Derbyshire, W.)
Driberg, T. E. N White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Dye, S. Moyle, A. Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly) Nally, W. Wigg, Col. G. E.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel) Naylor, T. E. Wilkes, L.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft) Neal, H. (Claycross) Wilkins, W. A.
Ewart, R. Nichol, Mrs. M. E. (Bradford, N.) Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)
Fairhurst, F. Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Farthing, W. J Oldfield, W. H. Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)
Field, Capt. W. J. Paget, R. T. Williams, W. R (Heston)
Fletcher, E. G M. (Islington, E.) Pargiter, G. A. Williamson, T.
Follick, M. Parker, J. Willis, E.
Foot, M. M Paton Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe) Wills, Mrs. E. A
Gaitskell, H. T. N Paton, J. (Norwich) Wyatt, W.
Gallacher, W. Pearson, A. Yates, V. F.
Gibson, C. W. Peart, Capt. T. F. Younger, Hon. Kenneth
Grenfell, D. R Porter, G. (Leeds)
Grierson, E. Proctor, W. T. TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley) Pursey, Cmdr. H Mr. Snow and Mr. Hannan
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly) Randall, H. E.