Commons Sitting of 20 October 1943

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  WAR CRIMINALS
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make it a condition of the armistice terms with Germany that the principal known war criminals should be at once handed over?
  The Minister of State (Mr. Richard Law): It is the intention of His Majesty's Government that adequate provisions of this nature shall be included in the armistice terms with Germany.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Is the Minister aware that a large number of people are very cynical about this proposal to punish war criminals, when they remember the stunt about hanging the Kaiser during the last war?
  Mr. Law: I hope that we shall be able to avoid mistakes made last time.
  Mr. Shinwell: Are these criminals to receive the same punishment as Badoglio?
  Mr. Sorensen: Will this include accessories before the fact, some of whom live in this country?
  Mr. Law: These matters are at present being discussed between the Governments of the United Nations. I do not think I can enter into them now.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: What has happened to the castor oil king of Italy?

  ITALY

    Armistice Terms
    Commander Sir Archibald Southbyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the terms of the armistice
    1354
    which have to do with political and economic questions have yet been signed between the Allies and Italy?
    Mr. Boothbyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information regarding the political terms of the armistice imposed upon Italy?
    Mr. Law: I hope to make a statement as soon as possible about the imposition on Italy of the further armistice terms provided for by the Armistice of 3rd September, but at the moment I am not in a position to do so.

    Badoglio Government
    Sir A. Southbyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give an undertaking that there is no question of any official envoy being sent to represent the Badoglio Government in this country and that the affairs of the defeated Italian nation will be dealt with through the Allied military commanders via the A.M.G.O.T. organisation?
    Mr. Law: Whatever arrangements are deemed to be suitable in this matter after consultation with our Allies will be announced to the House in due course.
    Sir A. Southby: Would the Minister bear in mind that there is very strong feeling in this country lest Italy should he treated as a great friend and a normal nation, instead of as a country which has been defeated in war?

    Generals Ambrosio and Roatta
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the broadcast from the Allied control station at Bari on 16th October, he has yet been officially informed if General Ambrosio and General Roatta are members of Marshal Badoglio's Government?
    Mr. Law: According to the information of His Majesty's Government, Generals Ambrosio and Roatta continue to hold the positions of Chief of the Combined Staff and Chief of the Army Staff respectively, which they held before the surrender. As I told the House last week the charges which have been made against them are being examined. If these charges prove to be well-founded appropriate action will be taken.
    Captain CunninghamReid: Will they be treated in the same way as Hess?
    Mr. Lipson: How long are these investigations likely to be?
    Mr. Law: I hope that they will be completed with all possible speed.
    Mr. Silverman: Is it not usual that when the conduct of officers is being investigated to see whether any criminal investigation could be founded they are suspended from duty?

    WAR OFFICE "WEEKLY REVIEW OF INTELLIGENCE"
    Mr. Prittasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that his Department recently supplied to the War Office, for publication in its "Weekly Review of Intelligence," a political review specially prepared by the Foreign Office to give officers a clear and authentic picture of political events, which contained a description of the Soviet demand for the opening of a second front as more persistent in its boring monotony than any previous one; and whether he will entrust the preparation of this review in future to some official who can be relied upon not to insult the Soviet Union in this fashion?
    Mr. Law: I would refer the hon. and learned Member to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War to the similar Question addressed to him on this subject. This represents the view of the Foreign Office also.
    Mr. Pritt: Would the Minister be good enough to answer the last part of my Question, whether he has an officer who does not serve out such things as emanating from the War Office?
    Mr. Law: I shall certainly do what I can to ensure that mistakes are not made.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Is it not the case that the Secretary of State for War referred in the last part of his reply to the fact that this document was not secret and thus lays greater stress upon the fact that, as the document is known, there cannot be anything wrong in publishing it?

    CHINESE REORGANISATION LOAN
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps he has taken to protect the interests of British subjects who have invested their savings in the Chinese Reorganisation Loan?
    Mr. Law: My hon. Friend will be aware that, since the Japanese occupation of large parts of China, the revenue on which the Reorganisation Loan is secured has been much reduced, and that the Chinese Government were obliged, in July, 1939, to suspend payments. The conditions which necessitated this suspension unfortunately still obtain; but the matter will be one for friendly discussion with the Chinese Government when the Japanese have been driven out of China.

    RUDOLF HESS
    Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in order to deter war criminals at large from the crimes they are committing, Hess will be tried forthwith, and the sentence be carried out immediately afterwards?
    Mr. Law: No, Sir.
    Captain Cunningham-Reid: Arising out of that short answer, will not the Minister agree that Russia has shown considerable wisdom in this war, and is he aware that in this White Paper, "Punishment for War Crimes," Part II, page 7, paragraph 5, the Russians have urged that this arch-murderer Hess be tried without any further shilly-shallying? We have had years to provide the necessary—
    Hon. Members: Speech.
    Mr. Law: I think it would be much better to leave these matters to the international processes of law which are now being arranged between the United Nations.
    Sir A. Southby: Will the Minister bear in mind that if these murderers are to be tried by international processes of law, the chances are that they will all; be acquitted; and will he also bear in mind that the people of the Allied Nations demand that those responsible for bringing this war upon the world shall be dealt with summarily?
    Mr. Law: There seems to be some contradiction between the two hypotheses put up by my hon. and gallant Friend. If we leave this to the international processes of law, he says nothing will be done. He asked also whether I was aware that other nations are extremely keen that something should be done. I think there is some contradiction there.
    Sir A. Southby: Will the Minister bear in mind that there is no contradiction?
    Mr. Pickthorn: May I ask the Minister how, under the ordinary processes of international law, any or all of these people could be indicted let alone convicted or acquitted? Secondly, does the Minister not think it is time, now that we have gone so far along the path of accomplished fact, that the whole matter was fully discussed in this country and in this House?
    Mr. Law: With regard to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question, I cannot tell him what the processes are, because these are at present being worked out with the Allies. With regard to the second part, I must say that I do not think it would be desirable to have public discussion of these matters while these discussions are going on with the United Nations.
    Colonel Greenwell: Would not the taking of action on those lines simply invite reprisals from the German Government?

    LEAGUE OF NATIONS (BRITISH CONTRIBUTION)
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the amount of the annual contribution to the League of Nations paid by His Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Law: The contribution payable by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom to the League of Nations for the year 1943 amounts to £164,210 15s. 10d.
    Mr. Lipson: Would the Minister agree that, provided proper use is made of the League, the expenditure is very useful?
    Mr. Law: Yes, Sir, I agree.
    Major Petheriek: What proportion of the total income of the League is borne by the British Government's contribution?
    Mr. Law: I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.

    UNITED STATES SENATORS (VISIT TO GREAT BRITAIN)
    Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what Government facilitates and hospitality were accorded to the five United States Senators who recently visited this country?
    Mr. Law: The Senators were extended all the facilities and courtesies normally accorded to distinguished visitors to this country. Their visit here was in connection with the United States Forces in this country, but, during their brief stay, various Members of this House were glad to offer them hospitality similar to that enjoyed in Washington by Members of this House during the current year.
    Captain Cunningham-Reid: Is the Minister aware that it has been widely stated in America that these Senators were treated by our authorities over here in a somewhat offhand manner; can it be that some of these Senators were, in consequence, somewhat peeved, resulting in some irresponsible outbursts on their part?
    Mr. Law: I was not aware of what my hon. and gallant Friend says is reported from America, but I am pretty sure, whatever is being said in America, that the Senators themselves would not say it.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Can the Minister say why this visit was called a good will mission?

    DISABLED PRISONERS OF WAR (EXCHANGE WITH GERMANY)
    The following Question stood upon, the Order Paper in the name of Mr. TINKER:
    12. To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is in a position to make a statement on the repatriation or exchange of disabled prisoners of war with Germany as the relatives are eagerly awaiting the result of the negotiations?
    Mr. Tinker: On a point of explanation, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that when I put this Question down last week I was not aware that the Minister was to make the statement which he made yesterday, and which really answered my Question. All I would do now is to ask him whether he has anything further to add to that statement.
    Mr. Law: No, Sir; I do not think there is anything further to add. My hon. Friend will no doubt have seen the accounts in the Press of the condition of these men when they got to Gothenburg and the remarkable spirit and fortitude which they showed.
    Mr. Tinker: May I express my thanks and say how happy 5,400 families will be to have their men back again, and how grateful they will be for what has been done?
    Mr. Hammersley: Can the Minister add to the information he has given something regarding the repatriation of civilian internees from the Far East?
    Mr. Law: I should be very glad to give my hon. Friend that information in the most convenient way. I think that the most convenient way would be by an answer which I will give very shortly to his Question.

    POST-WAR FRONTIERS
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any formal or informal understandings exist between His Majesty's Government and nations now at war with the Axis Powers regarding the post-war frontiers of such nations?
    Mr. Law: The principle adopted which His Majesty's Government have followed is that territorial changes are reserved for the peace settlement. There is no commitment that conflicts with that principle.

    FRENCH VISITING FORCES (COLONIES) ORDER
    Major Petherickasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why there was no Explanatory Memorandum attached to the French Visiting Forces (Colonies) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1380, of 1943), having regard to the fact that this Order involved reference to three Acts of Parliament and three Statutory Rules and Orders; and what was the purpose of the Order?
    Mr. Law: The purpose of this Order was to enable the French Committee of National Liberation to exercise jurisdiction over the forces of that Committee which are for the time being in British Colonies and mandated territories, and
    1360
    to enable provision to be made for the relations between those Forces and the civilian authorities concerned. The need for this fresh provision arose from the constitution and recognition of the French Committee of National Liberation. Before this Order was made, the position of these Forces was governed by the Allied Forces (Application of Acts to Colonies, etc.) (No. 2) Order, 1941, which is now revoked. No change of substance is involved. The Order contains full recitals explaining both the position of Allied Forces generally in the Colonies and mandated territories, and the reason for which fresh provision was required in the case of French Forces. In these circumstances, the addition of an explanatory memorandum was considered unnecessary.

    AERIAL BOMBARDMENT (NEUTRALISED ZONE)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what representations he has received through the French or other Government or from foreign or British sources regarding the possibility of establishing a Lieux de Genève or neutralised zone in each country, where women, children, old and sick people could be absolutely or relatively immune from aerial bombardment?
    Mr. Law: No representations on this subject have been received by His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is the Minister aware that the statement has appeared in the Press—to be precise, "The Times"—to the effect that arrangements are being made to secure a reserved zone in Italy to fulfil this purpose? Might I ask further whether the Government has never paid any attention to this proposal up to the present time?
    Mr. Law: I was not aware of the statement in the Press. The facts are as I have stated.
    Colonel Sir A. Lambert-Ward: Does not my right hon. Friend think that there would be considerable danger of the enemy placing their munition factories within the Lieux de Genève and thus rendering them immune from air attack?
    Mr. Law: I should have thought there was considerable danger of that.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is it not a fact that the Minister's Department and the Government rule out entirely this humane proposal?
    Mr. Law: We do not rule out anything that will contribute to the satisfactory prosecution of the war.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE

    Women's Auxiliary Air Force
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air the trades which are now open for recruits in the W.A.A.F.?
    The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Air (Captain Harold Balfour):Recruitment for the W.A.A.F. has temporarily ceased except for a few women from overseas and a very small number of women of high scientific or linguistic qualifications. Many trades are, however, open to serving airwomen who are suitably qualified. With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate the current list in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the list:

    Acetylene Welder.

    Chemical Warfare Fighter.

    Chiropodist.

    Clerk, Accounting.

    Clerk, General Duties.

    Clerk, General Duties, Maps.

    Clerk, General Duties, Postal Duties.

    Clerk, Personnel Selection.

    Clerk, Signals.

    Clerk, Special Duties, Watchkeeper.

    Cook.

    Dental Clerk Orderly.

    Dispenser.

    Draughtsman Cartographer.

    Electrician II.

    Equipment Assistant.

    Flight Mechanic.

    Hairdresser.

    Instrument Repairer II.

    Laboratory Assistant.

    Maintenance Assistant.

    Masseuse.

    Medical Orderly.

    Mess Steward.

    M.T. Mechanic.

    Photographer.

    Radar Operator.

    Radar/ Wireless /Mechanic.

    Safety Equipment Assistant.

    Safety Equipment Worker.

    Tailoress.

    Telephonist.

    Teleprinter Operator.

    Waitress.

    Wireless Operator.

    Balloon Command Personnel (Decorations)
    Wing-Commander Hulbertasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can give details of the decorations awarded to personnel of Balloon Command, including sea-going barrages, since 3rd September, 1939?
    Captain Balfour: Since the outbreak of war, 43 decorations have been awarded to personnel of Balloon Command, including crews of sea-going barrages. With the hon. and gallant Member's permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    The details are as follow:

    C.B.E.

    …

    …

    1

    O.B.E.

    …

    …

    1

    M.B.E.

    …

    …

    9

    B.E.M.

    …

    …

    31

    D.S.M.

    …

    …

    1

    Of the foregoing, two M.B.E.'s, nine B.E.M.'s and the D.S.M. were awarded to personnel of sea-going barrages.

    Royal Canadian Air Force Order
    Sir Harold Webbeasked the Secretary of State for Air why, in the Visiting Forces (British Commonwealth) Royal Canadian Air Force Order (S.R. & O., No. 1388, of 5943, 16 dollars, Canadian is substituted for five pounds, in paragraph r, whereas, in paragraph 2, 16 dollars, Canadian, are substituted for only two pounds?
    Captain Balfour: Under the Air Force Act the maximum fine which may be imposed upon an airman of the R.A.F. for drunkenness is £5 on conviction by court-martial and £2 in a case which is dealt with summarily. These provisions also applied to airmen of the R.C.A.F. attached to the R.A.F. whereas under R.C.A.F. regulations a maximum fine of 16 dollars is prescribed under both court-martial and summary procedure. The Order to which the hon. Member refers was made at the request of the Canadian authorities with the object of placing airmen of the R.C.A.F. attached to the R.A.F. in the same position in this respect as those serving under R.C.A.F. regulations.
    Sir H. Webbe: Is it desirable that men serving alongside one another as these Canadian airmen are serving alongside our own airmen should be treated differently in this matter?
    Captain Balfour: We have the choice of either aligning Royal Air Force Regulations with those of the Canadian Air Force or aligning the Regulations of the Royal Air Force with those of the British Army, and we have chosen the latter course.

    Trained Dogs
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he proposes to use properly-trained dogs to help in the protection of airfields and ammunition dumps in occupied countries against sabotage by the enemy?
    Captain Balfour: Yes, Sir, it is the intention to use trained dogs for this purpose in suitable circumstances.

    Sergeants (Promotion)
    Captain Cunningham-Reidasked the Secretary of State for Air, why the period which must elapse before a sergeant, after obtaining his wings, can be promoted to flight-lieutenant is three months longer in the R.A.F. than it is in the air forces of the Dominions; and will he take steps to remove this anomaly which is operating unfairly towards our own personnel?
    Captain Balfour: As the arrangements for the promotion of aircrew to flight lieutenant are the same in the Dominion Air Forces as in the Royal Air Force, I assume that the hon. and gallant Member is referring to promotion to flight sergeant. It is impracticable in this, as in other matters, to maintain exact uniformity between the conditions of service in the Royal Air Force and the Dominion Air Forces.
    Captain Cunningham-Reid: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman appreciate that in spite of his courteous answer there is still cause for much dissatisfaction as to this particular point among our own air personnel?
    Captain Balfour: No, Sir. The period was fixed having regard to the varying conditions in the many branches of the Royal Air Force.

    Bombing Operations (Names of Units)
    Major Petherickasked the Secretary of State for Air, whether, in the case of operations involving the bombing of enemy or enemy occupied countries the Press reports will in future, provided
    1364
    security conditions permit, state in each case whether the operations are carried out by British, American or other Allied units in view of the interest these arouse in the countries of those units?
    Captain Balfour: The procedure suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend is, in fact, followed where security and other considerations permit. In the case of operations, such as most of the night attacks by Bomber Command in which squadrons and personnel of many nationalities take part, it is not practicable to follow it. Dominion and Allied Air Force Headquarters have, however, at their disposal all available information regarding the activities of their units and subject to security considerations communicate it to their national press. In addition, arrangements are made for the exploits of Dominion and Allied units to be frequently broadcast in the B.B.C. Home and Overseas programmes.
    Major Petherick: Would my right hon. and gallant Friend be good enough to give some publicity to the question, because it is believed in the U.S.A. that we do not give sufficient prominence to the deeds of American airmen in the air in our Press reports?
    Captain Balfour: I hope that the Question which my hon. and gallant Friend has put and the answer I have given to-day will achieve that purpose.

    Pyjamas
    Viscount Hinchingbrookeasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he will reconsider the question of supplying pyjamas to R.A.F. personnel?
    Captain Balfour: I sympathise with my Noble Friend's suggestion, but I regret that the general shortage of materials precludes its adoption.
    Viscount Hinchingbrooke: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that there is some difference of treatment in this question as between one Service and another? Will he study the arrangements made in the Navy whereby officers are entitled to get clothes by signing a chit and ratings can obtain pyjamas, I understand, simply by going to the ship's clothing stores?
    Captain Balfour: Living conditions in the Navy are different from those in the R.A.F. Our practice is the same as that

    1365
    of the Army, and it simply is a question of shortage of material. I agree with my Noble Friend that the.pyjama is admirable, it is comfortable and it is desirable, but unfortunately it is not essential, and we have to deal with essentials.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is this a principal plank in the programme of the Tory reform group?
    Mr. Loverseed: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not admit that a mere shortage of materials is not sufficient reason for keeping fighting men short of this elementary need of decency?
    Captain Balfour: I am not sure but I think that aircrews have an issue of pyjamas. I will look into this and if they do not, I will see whether that can be done. As regards the bulk of the Royal Air Force personnel, we cannot do it, because the President of the Board of Trade has not got the material available.
    Mr. Tinker: Will all ranks be entitled to this clothing?
    Captain Balfour: We cannot get more than a pint out of a pint pot, and the President of the Board of Trade has not got the material.
    Mr. Lipson: Is it not the case that if these men were civilians the President of the Board of Trade would find the materials?

    LEND-LEASE (AIRCRAFT FACTORIES, UNITED STATES)
    Captain Gammansasked the Minister of Aircraft Production on what grounds of public interest he cannot give the value of aircraft factories erected in the United States of America by British money from the sale of British securities and other means prior to Lend-Lease, in view of the fact that the American Government has stated the value of Lend-Lease to this country?
    The Minister of Aircraft Production (Sir Stafford Cripps): All the information asked for by the hon. and gallant Member would be of use to the enemy, and it is for this reason that its disclosure would be contrary to the public interest. So far as I am aware, the details asked for are different from anything that has been published regarding Lend-Lease supplies.
    Captain Gammans: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that there is great misunderstanding in the United States with regard to the erection of aircraft factories, and that it is not generally understood that a large number of the aircraft factories in the early days before Lend-Lease were in fact erected by British money? Does he not feel that that fact should be made known?
    Sir S. Cripps: I think that that fact is probably known quite well. I am afraid that I cannot agree that there is great misunderstanding.
    Captain Gammans: Could not the right hon. and learned Gentleman give this information, in view of the fact that the Americans are giving figures for Lend-Lease?
    Mr. Montague: Could my right hon. and learned Friend say what use could he made of the information by the enemy?
    Sir S. Cripps: The information suggested is that the value of various aircraft factories should be stated, which would obviously give a clue as to the output from those factories.
    Mr. Molson: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider making a statement of the total expenditure on aircraft factories in the United States before Lend-Lease was introduced?
    Sir S. Cripps: I will certainly consider it.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS CHAMBER (ACOUSTICS)
    Sir R. W. Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works whether further steps will be taken to improve the acoustics of the Chamber by the introduction of a microphone over Mr. Speaker's Chair and amplifiers at the Western end of the Chamber?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works (Mr. Hicks): The installation of an additional microphone over Mr. Speaker's Chair would serve no useful purpose, as those already installed pick up sound satisfactorily from all parts of the Chamber. On the other hand, I am advised that loud-speakers cannot be installed where they will be within range of a speaker's voice, or where the sound from the loud-speakers will be picked up

    1367
    by the microphones, without producing an unintelligible or uncontrolled volume of sound. I am, however, arranging to have an actual test made when the House is not in Session to see whether there is any part of the Western end of the Chamber where a loud-speaker could be usefully installed without involving either of these difficulties.
    Sir R. W. Smith: When it is possible to have amplifiers in the Galleries at the Eastern end, why is it not possible to have them at the Western end?
    Mr. Hicks: I said that we are going to experiment.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Are not all the utterances of hon. Members really worth hearing?
    Mr. Pritt: Which is the Western end of a Chamber that runs North and South?
    Mr. Rhys Davies: Would it not be better, instead of trying to improve the acoustics of this Chamber, to ask Members to try to improve their elocution?

    BUILDING CONTRACTING INDUSTRY
    Mr. Manderasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works the numbers employed in the building contracting industry on 1st January, 1942, and 1st January, 1943, and up to the latest available date; and to what extent in numbers and percentage it is contemplated that the employees in this industry will be directed to other industries?
    Mr. Hicks: I regret that it would not be in the public interest to give the information asked for in the Question.
    Mr. Mander: Is it the intention to move large numbers of workers from the contracting industry to other war industries?
    Mr. Hicks: That will be decided by war necessity and need.
    Mr. Mander: Are they going to be moved or not?
    Mr. Hicks: It all depends.

    CONTROL OF CONTRACTING UNDERTAKINGS ORDER
    Sir H. Webbeasked the Parliamentar Secretary to the Ministry of Works why the Emergency Powers (Defence) Control of Building and Civil Engineering Contracting Undertakings Order (S.R. & O., No. 1337, of 1943), signed on 16th September, was not deposited in the Library until iith October?
    Mr. Hicks: The Order to which the hon. Member refers was not released for publication until 11th October, as the return provided for under the Order was not due to be furnished until l0th November, 1943, thus leaving a clear month between the date of publication and the submis-sion of the return. I am obliged to the hon. Member for calling my attention to this matter, and I have made arrangements that in future all such Orders shall be deposited in the Library, as soon as they can be printed after signature.

  ROYAL NAVY

    Skilled Labour, Garvel Shipyard (Use)
    Mr. McNeilasked the First Lord of the Admiralty by whose authority skilled labour from the Garvel shipyard was utilised for repairing a greenhouse at a private residence, of which he has been informed, between the dates of 27th April and 20th May?
    The First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. A. V. Alexander): The utilisation on these repairs of the labour in question, which consisted of a joiner, a machineman and an apprentice, was authorised by the firm. I am informed that during the period mentioned there was a temporary shortage of joiners' work in the shipyard.
    Mr. McNeil: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that it there is a shortage of work in this particular firm, there is a machine for transferring skilled labour from this place to other points where there is no shortage of joinery work?
    Mr. Alexander: That is a matter for the Minister of Labour, under the Essential Work Order, but I am informed that there is no real point in that, because there is only a small amount of labour and it is not worth transferring.
    Mr. McNeil: Does my right hon. Friend not consider that if there was an offence there—which I think there was, however small—it was up to the court to decide the extent of the offence by the smallness of their penalty, and does he not agree that there has been a good deal of dissatisfaction already reported to him by the workpeople in this company?
    Mr. Alexander: So far as I know, there was no offence in this matter.

    Repatriations from Italy
    Mr. McKinlayasked the First Lord of the Admiralty the terms of the agreement under which 787 officers and men were repatriated from Italy in March, 1943, and the terms of the document signed by such officers and men before they were exchanged?
    Mr. Alexander: I would refer my right hon. Friend to the statement made to this House by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on 24th March last, in which he fully explained the circumstances leading to the agreement for the repatriation of these officers and men. The agreement reached with enemy Governments contained no special terms. The documents which were signed by such officers and men before they were exchanged, were discharge sheets containing a statement of pay received and an authorisation for the disposal of outstanding balances.
    Mr. McKinlay: If the men involved were to make a statement that the document was a declaration that they would not light again against the Axis, would they be telling an untruth?
    Mr. Alexander: I should be very surprised to hear of any such statement, because this was not a repatriation agreement within the scope of the Geneva Convention at all.
    Mr. McKinlay: I have had correspondence on this matter, and I must ask my right hon. Friend to give a categorical denial or otherwise. Did not the men involved in this repatriation sign a document saying that they would not be used against the Axis again?
    Mr. Alexander: Ihave already given an answer that the documents they signed consisted only of discharge sheets, a statement of the pay they had received, and
    1370
    an authorisation for the disposal of all outstanding balances.
    Mr. McKinlay: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Merchant Ships (Passive Defence) Order
    Sir H. Webbeasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the Emergency Powers (Defence) Merchant Ships (Passive Defence) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1412, of 1943), signed on 23rd September, and which came into operation forthwith, was not received by an hon. Member from the Vote Office till 4th October; and on what date it was delivered to ships' masters affected?
    Mr. Alexander: This Order, issued at the request of my right hon. Friend the Minister of War Transport, replaces a similar Order issued in 1941, and provides for an increased scale of equipment in merchant ships for passive defence purposes. The Order was published by my Department in Statutory Rules and Orders and in the London Gazette but is administered by my right hon. Friend. I am informed that it is not intended to deliver copies to ships' masters; their attention will be drawn to the Order by the principal officers and surveyors of the Ministry as opportunity offers. I should add that reasonable time is always given to the master of a merchant ship to enable him to comply with the terms of any Order affecting him.
    Sir H. Webbe: Was any prior notification given to ships' masters that this Order would become effective on 23rd September? If not, has the necessity for extending this Order led to the holding up of the sailing of any ships?
    Mr. Alexander: It has not led to the holding up of any sailings. The administration of the Order is the responsibility of my Noble Lord the Minister War Transport. The Statute Law Committee made a Statutory Rule and Order, but no step has been taken against anyone in the interim period.

    Clyde Workers (Water Transport)
    Mr. Gallacherasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that 150 men, employed by Alexander Stephens and Company, lost two days' work during last week after travelling to a certain part of the Clyde through the

    1371
    failure of his Department to supply water transport to convey them to the job; and what steps he has taken to prevent future occurrences of this sort?
    Mr. Alexander: I am afraid the answer is a little long. The hon. Member appears to have been misinformed. The facts are that on 12th October a vessel under repair by the firm mentioned was removed to another part of the river for dry docking in a floating dock. It was decided that during the day the vessel was on passage and was being dry docked, the repair party could be better employed on other work, but the men, numbering about 150, were instructed to join the floating dock on the morning of 13th October to proceed with the repairs to the vessel. Owing to stress of weather the vessel could not be docked on 12th October, and because of a temporary breakdown in communications, due to the same cause, it was not possible to countermand the instructions to the men before they left work on 12th October. They were, however, informed the following morning at the railway station that the vessel had not docked, that the repair work on the vessel could not therefore proceed, and that they should return to the firm's yard. About 50 of the men did not follow their instructions, and proceeded to the vicinity of the floating dock, where they were properly refused permission to board the ferry boat. They then returned to the firm's yard, where they resumed work on the afternoon of 13th October. The remaining 100 men carried out the instructions given to them. I am quite satisfied about the adequacy of the water transport on the Clyde.

    VIRGIN ISLANDS (TOBACCO GROWING)
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the present position with regard to the growing of tobacco in the British Virgin Islands; and whether the growers and manufacturers have been consulted with regard to the future?
    The Under-Secretary of State for Dominions Affairs (Mr. Emry's-Evans): I have been asked to reply. There is nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 5th May. My right hon. and gallant Friend has not yet heard from
    1372
    the Governor of the Leeward Islands the outcome of the consultations with the Inspector-General of Agriculture to which he referred in that reply.
    Mr. Mander: Will my hon. Friend deal with the second part of the Question, as to whether there have been consultations with the manufacturers and growers?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I think that is covered by my reply. We will make further inquiries from the Governor.
    Mr. Riley: Is the hon. Member aware that there is great dissatisfaction in the Virgin Islands about tobacco-growing being restricted; and will the matter be looked into?

  PALESTINE

    Workmen's Compensation
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the new approved rates of workmen's compensation have yet been put into operation in Palestine; and whether he will ask the High Commissioner to set up a local committee to examine the whole problem of workmen's compensation in the light of war conditions?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: The new approved rates of workmen's compensation were laid clown in Palestine Ordinance No. 17 of 1943, which was enacted on 17th August. The High Commissioner for Palestine is being consulted on the possibility of a Committee being set up for the purpose indicated in the second part of the Question.

    Land Regulations
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the intention of the Land Regulations in Palestine, preventing the alienation of Arab lands, is being evaded by the use of mortgage and foreclosure; and whether he will take immediate steps to amend the Regulations in order to prevent such evasion?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: My right hon. and gallant Friend has no reason to suppose that the intention of the Regulations is being evaded by the use of mortgage and foreclosure. The transfer of land by such methods is strictly limited by the Regulations to transfers resulting from a judicial decision in satisfaction of a mortgage

    1373
    executed and registered before the date of the Regulations. As the Regulations came into force with effect from 18th May, 1939, the number of such transfers should diminish from year to year and will eventually cease altogether.
    Mr. Astor: Will my hon. Friend inquire of the High Commissioner for Palestine whether he is satisfied on this point, and can he give me an answer when he has had time to prepare one?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I will consult my right hon. and gallant Friend.

    Citrus Fruit (Dehydration)
    Mr. Astorasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the committee investigating the dehydration of citrus fruit in Palestine has completed its work; what are its recommendations; and what action has been taken?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: The Ministry of Food Dehydration Mission, to which my right hon. and gallant Friend referred in his answer to my hon. Friend on 21st July, has now returned to this country, and is engaged in preparing its report to the Minister of Food. When the Mission's report is available, consideration will be given to what further action if any is practicable and desirable in the matter of extending citrus dehydration facilities in Palestine.
    Mr. Astor: Is my hon. Friend aware that the distress of citrus fruit growers in Palestine is very severe, and will he show a certain amount of urgency in the matter, otherwise they will all be bankrupt?

    KENYA (CO-OPERATIVE ENTERPRISE)
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether amendment of the law relating to co-operative enterprise is under consideration in Kenya; and whether the existing law provides for retail co-operation or for the handling, other than wholesale, of agricultural products?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: Yes, Sir. An amending Bill was to be introduced in the Legislative Council last month. If it is passed, a copy of the Ordinance will be placed in the Library of the House when received. With regard to the second part of the Question, the existing legislation,
    1374
    although it does not appear to exclude the two purposes mentioned, is limited to societies or associations of producers of agricultural products, and to subsidiary societies or associations. The purpose of the amending legislation is to make possible the registration of all societies and associations which have as their objects the promotion of the economic interests of their members in accordance with cooperative principles.

    GOLD COAST (GIN IMPORTS)
    Mr. Barrasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give the amount of Geneva or gin imported into the Gold Coast for 1940, 1941 and 1942, respectively; the amount estimated for 1943 on the basis of the amount already imported; and the quota, as fixed by the Government of the Gold Coast, of permitted gallons of Geneva or gin that may be imported during 1943?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: The amounts imported in 1940, 1941 and 1942 were 7,934, 13,801 and 31,209 gallons, respectively. The estimated imports in 1943 were 10,000 gallons, the actual imports up-to-date being 7,500 gallons. The quota for 1943 is 73,500 gallons.
    Mr. Barr: In view of the increase last year up to 30,000 gallons, can my hon. Friend say why it is that the quota is kept at such a very large increase over the amount imported? Is it in order to keep a wide open door for imports when peace returns?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I am afraid I am unable to answer the first part of the Question, and with regard to the second part, the quota is based on the average consumption for the years 1931-39.
    Mr. Turton: Do the figures include imports to the American Forces as well as imports to Colonial and our own Forces?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I should have to have notice of that Question.
    Major Petherick: Can my hon. Friend give the figures for the year before the war?

    COLONIAL EMPIRE (INSTRUCTION IN SCHOOLS)
    Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether

    1375
    he has already asked for facilities for talks, lantern or film lectures in the schools on the subject of the Colonial Empire with a view to promoting a greater interest in and knowledge of the Colonies; and with what result?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: My right hon. and gallant Friend is in constant touch with the Minister of Information and the President of the Board of Education with a view to promoting a greater interest in and knowledge of the Colonial Empire in schools by these and other means including special posters and pamphlets. I would refer to the reply given yesterday by the President of the Board of Education to a Question by the hon. and gallant Member for East Renfrew (Major Lloyd) as an indication of the facilities which are being provided. A large proportion of the lectures and film displays given to school children under the auspices of the Imperial Institute is devoted to the Colonial Empire.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in order to promote also accuracy and truth in schools, he will see that these talks are objective and not unduly romantic?
    Mr. McGovern: Will the hon. Gentleman see that in any education that is given to the children they are also told of the wage conditions in the Colonies and are shown pictures of the starvation in India and the Colonies generally?

    NIGERIA (COLLIERY WORKERS)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information respecting discontent among colliery workers at the Enugu coal mine, Nigeria; and what action has been taken in the matter?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part of the Question, a fully qualified Colliery Manager with up-to-date experience of coalmining in this country has been appointed and has recently flown out to Nigeria. A deputy manager has also been appointed to deal specifically with staff matters.
    Mr. Sorensen: If the first part of the reply is in the affirmative, what is the nature of the affirmation? May I have an answer to my Question?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: The Government are aware of it.
    Mr. Sorensen: May we have the information arising out of that affirmation?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir, we have not got any details of this specific grievance.

    COLONIAL TROOPS (PAY AND ALLOWANCES)
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a memorandum respecting the pay of Colonial troops in different territories has yet been made available to Members and can be made public; and whether dependants' allowances for soldiers killed on service are likely to be increased?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: Copies of this memorandum, which was prepared for the information of my hon. Friend in response to a previous Question, are available in the Library of the House. There is no objection to the information contained therein being made public. As regards the second part of the Question, I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War that in territories where the pension rate is directly related to British rates the pensions are being adjusted to the appropriate proportion of the recently increased British rates. In this case an increase has recently been approved. In other cases no increase is proposed since the rates are at present considered to be adequate.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is there likely to be any reconsideration of this matter at an early date seeing that there is some discontent?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: I will consult my right hon. and gallant Friend.
    Mr. Sorensen: When will that be?

    JAMAICA (TELEPHONE SERVICE)
    Mr. Rileyasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can make any statement regarding the negotiations which have recently been taking place for the purchase of the Jamaican

    1377
    nationally-owned telephone service by the Telephone and General Trust, Limited, of London?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: As my right hon. and gallant Friend stated on 4th August, the matter was referred to the Jamaica Legislative Council, and a recent Press report indicates that the Council is in favour of the sale of this undertaking. On receipt of the Governor's report, which is no doubt on its way, my right hon. arid gallant Friend will consider further action in the light of the Council's deliberations.
    Mr. Riley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that two Committees were appointed which reported against the purchase of this public-owned service and that there is a strong public feeling against it?
    Mr. Emrys-Evans: My right hon. and gallant Friend will take all these matters into consideration.

    ARMED FORCES OVERSEAS (LEAVE)
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Prime Minister whether he has consulted with the Secretary of State for War and the Secretary of State for Air as to the arrangements by which those who have been 'serving overseas for a long period can be given leave; and what decision he has made?
    The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave yesterday in reply to a Question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Major C. S. Taylor).
    Mr. Tinker: I did not hear it yesterday, and will my right hon. Friend repeat what the Prime Minister said?
    Mr. Attlee: Perhaps my hon. Friend will obtain a copy.
    Major C. S. Taylor: Is it not a fact that the Regulations in the Army and the Royal Air Force are different, and is it not true to say that the men serving overseas in the Army resent the special treatment which is given to certain R.A.F. personnel?
    Mr. Attlee: That seems to raise a different question.

    YUGOSLAV PATRIOTS (ALLIED HELP)
    Mr. Ivor Thomasasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the serious embarrassment caused to the German forces by Yugoslav patriots, helped in many cases by Italians; and whether he will see that effective help is given to them at the earliest possible date even if it means a change in our strategical plans?
    Mr. Attlee: I think it better not to discuss such matters at Question Time.

    DEPARTMENTAL ORDERS
    Sir Leonard Lyleasked the Prime Minister whether, following his recent exhortation to Government Departments to cut down the length of the orders and regulations issued and to frame them in much simpler language, he has received any report as to the results achieved?
    Mr. Attlee: As stated by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 26th May, general guidance has been given to Departments on the drafting of this subordinate legislation, and in particular on the importance of securing that so tar as practicable it is intelligible on the face of it without unnecessary reference to other enactments. I believe that these instructions are being generally observed.
    Sir L. Lyle: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Ministry of Home Security recently issued a Fire Order of approximately 70 pages, with a supplementary Memorandum of something like 700 pages, and that it took a certain town clerk on the south coast, with his assistant and the borough auditors, from 2 until 6 o'clock to find out what it all meant; and is it not a fact that 10,000 Orders have been issued to local authorities since the beginning of the war?
    Mr. Attlee: I am not aware, of course, about the matter of the town clerk, but my hon. Friend is trying to get two things done. He wants things made absolutely intelligible to the most uninstructed person, and he asks for the greatest amount of brevity, and these two things are not always compatible.
    Mr. Levy: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these Orders are not only issued in official jargon that nobody can

    1379
    understand but that, when explanations are asked for from the Departments, they reply in the same official jargon which nobody can understand? Why issue Orders at all if people cannot understand the jargon used?
    Mr. Attlee: My hon. Friend is giving to the lack of understanding too great a universality.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Why not use basic American?

    DEMOBILISATION (CHANNEL ISLANDERS)
    Major Millsasked the Minister without Portfolio whether, in making plans for the demobilisation of the Armed Forces, he will endeavour to give some degree of priority to Channel Islanders who have had no opportunity whatsoever of personal or other contacts with their families and their general interests in their homelands since the occupation of those islands by the enemy?
    The Minister without Portfolio (Sir Williram Jowitt): I will see that consideration is given to this matter.

    PAPER (ALLOCATION)
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsayasked the Minister of Production how many tons of paper are allocated per annum, respectively, to newspapers, the Stationery Office, the War Office and to books?
    The Minister of Production (Mr. Lyttelton): The approximate figures are 250,000 tons for newspapers, 20,000 tons for books and about 100,000 tons for the Stationery Office. The War Office uses about 25,000 tons a year, taken from the Stationery Office allocation.
    Mr. Lindsay: Without wishing to get the matter out of perspective, would the right hon. Gentleman reconsider this question? I believe that another 1,000 tons would produce 5,000,000 books of average size and that the War Office is using 5,000 tons more than the whole of the book trade.
    Mr. Lyttelton: I do my best to try to keep the quotas more or less equitable.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister for Production whether he is aware that the recent increase in the paper supply given to newspapers is about double the total now available to publishers of books; that many daily papers are not now selling out; and whether he will give part of this supply to publishers of books and weekly papers?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I am afraid I do not agree with the hon. Member's figures. I assume, however, that the object of his Question is to suggest that the supply of newsprint to newspapers should be reduced in order that paper supplies for books and weekly periodicals may be increased. I cannot accept this suggestion. The tonnage at present allocated to newspapers is about 22½ per cent. of their pre-war consumption, for books 37½ per cent., and for periodicals 20 per cent. Special additions to these latter allocations have been made for periodicals and books for the Forces. I am, however, most anxious to increase the supplies for books and periodicals as soon as circumstances permit.
    Mr. Montague: Will the Minister assure the House that Orders and Regulations will not be printed on inferior newsprint?
    Sir Austin Hudson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when the cut was made on newspapers it was made at the same time on weekly papers and periodicals and that when the cut was restored it was not restored to these weekly papers? Can he say the reason for this differentiation, which is causing very bad feeling?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I will look into the matter of periodicals again. At present I admit there is a disparity of 21 per cent. in the allocation.
    Miss Rathbone: Is the Minister aware that while nobody is in any difficulty about getting the newspapers they want there is a serious shortage of books, which is proving a real impediment to the war effort, because it is affecting educational books of all kinds?
    Mr. Lyttelton: I can assure the hon. Lady that in this matter I am on the side of the angels and that if their wings have been slightly clipped through my efforts it was only in order to drive the devil out more quickly.
    Mr. Neil Maclean: Is the Minister aware that there has been a reduction in the quota of paper allowed to publishers of educational books for schools and that in many schools there is one book between five or six pupils? Will he not consider granting an increase in the quota to some of the school educational publishers so that children can have the books they need?
    Mr. Lyttelton: Yes, Sir, I will be glad to communicate with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Education on the matters which have been raised by hon. Members.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY

    Tank Research and Development
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Supply (r) whether it was at the suggestion of the War Office that Mr. Oliver Lucas was superseded as Director-General of Tank Research and Development;
    (2) whether the new Director-General of Tank Research and Development is also to be in charge of tank production; and what experience has he of tank design or production?
    Mr. Stokesasked the Minister of Supply for what reason Mr. Oliver Lucas gave up his position as Director of Tank Development and Design; and whether he will state the qualifications of his successor, Mr Gibb, for the post?
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): The change referred to arose from the appointment of the former Director-General to be Chairman of a Mission to the United States. of America. This has not involved any change in the distribution of functions within the Department. I am satisfied that the new Director-General possesses both suitable experience and technical qualifications for this post.
    Mr. Keeling: Is it impossible to find anybody with experience of tank design and production for this post?
    Sir A. Duncan: The new Director-General has for almost three years now been Director-General of Weapon Production in the Ministry of Supply. He has done a first-class job in this capacity
    1382
    and has been in close touch all the time with tank problems. He was, in my judgment, the most suitable person to appoint at the present moment.
    Mr. Stokes: May I ask whether the Mission to America has the support of the War Office and, further, whether the real reason for the changed Tank Board is not that they have altogether failed to produce a tank which is in arty way war-worthy? If there is any tank which is war-worthy, would the Minister tell us what it is?
    Sir A. Duncan: This Mission was appointed after consultation with the War Office and has their support. The second part of the hon. Member's Supplementary Question contains a suggestion which is quite erroneous and very unfair.
    Mr. Stokes: Will the Minister tell the House what type of tank is war-worthy as presumably the Germans must know by now?
    Mr. Hammersley: Could my right hon. Friend say whether this change in the direction of design and development of tanks indicates success or failure on the part of those previously responsible?
    Sir A. Duncan: It arises because the former Director-General was the most suitable person to send to America on this Mission.
    Mr. Keeling: Are we to understand that the decision to send Mr. Oliver Lucas to America was by way of promotion and not reproach?
    Sir A. Duncan: It certainly was not by way of reproach; I would not like to call it promotion, but alternative occupation.
    Mr. Stokes: Was this Mission welcomed by the United States Government?
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Supply whether his Department has designed any tank during the last two years which fulfils the requirements of the War Office?
    Sir A. Duncan: Yes, Sir. The detailed specifications of all tanks are, of course, decided by agreement between my Department and the War Office.
    Mr. Keeling: Would my right hon. Friend agree that if this country had made as big a mess of the design of aircraft as it has of tanks, we should have lost the war long ago?

    Paper (Allocation)
    Mr. Dribergasked the Minister of Supply whether any check is kept on the use of so-called free paper by jobbing printers; and whether he can make a statement on the use of such paper for books issued by new publishers?
    Mr. Jewsonasked the Minister of Supply why new publishing firms are allowed to use paper for books without restriction while established firms are restricted to a small quota?
    Sir A. Duncan: The delivery of paper by manufacturers and merchants for the production of books is limited to book publishing businesses established before control was instituted or to their successors. Such publishers are allowed a fixed quota based upon pre-war usage, and are not permitted to acquire paper for book publishing outside this quota. Certain firms not having quotas have entered the business using paper from printers' and other stocks. Returns which have been obtained show the quantity of paper so used to be small and to be diminishing, but it is necessary for us to keep the position under review, bearing in mind also the effect of this practice upon the supplies for general printing purposes.
    Mr. Driberg: Is not the Minister aware that there is a great shortage of established educational and medical textbooks, and would he not agree, in view of what he has said, that he ought to take more active steps to discourage the setting-up of new publishing businesses, some of them quite reputable but others much less so?
    Sir A. Duncan: I think we must keep this matter in perspective. The amount of paper used in this way is less than r per cent. of the allocations to general printing but in so far as it adds to the volume of books, then to that extent it meets the wishes of many hon. Members.
    Mr. Lindsay: In view of the large number of Questions on this subject, would the Minister consult with the Minister of Production on this matter and get judgment from the War Cabinet?
    Sir A. Duncan: I shall be glad to consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Production; indeed, I am in consultation with him now.

    Woman Medical Officer
    Lady Apsleyasked the Minister of Supply whether a woman doctor has yet been added to his advisers in accordance with the Report on the Health and Welfare of Women in the Factories, of 17th December, 1942?
    Sir A. Duncan: Yes, Sir. A woman medical officer was appointed to the headquarters staff of the Ministry of Supply in May last.

    Semi-Manufactured and Manufactured Articles Order
    Mr. Molsonasked the Minister of Supply, why the 39 new related schedules referred to in the Emergency Powers (Defence) Semi-Manufactured and Manufactured Articles Order (S.R. & O., No. 1301, of 1943), have been lodged with him instead of being published?
    Sir A. Duncan: These and the other related schedules to the Iron and Steel Control Orders would constitute a bulky document running into many thousands of pages, and in the interests of economy in paper and printing, it has not been the practice to print them with the Orders, though they are public documents available for inspection by any person interested. The individual schedules and changes in them are circulated to the producing and using sections of trade concerned.

    Railings Removal
    Mr. Colegateasked the Minister of Supply, whether, in view of the recent iron and coal trades market Reports that buyers are not appearing interested in old railings, of which there are large stocks, he will now reconsider the policy of removing such railings round schools, houses and other buildings?
    Sir A. Duncan: Scrap railings are now being consumed by the steelworks at a greater rate than they are being collected, and reserve stocks are beginning to diminish. It is essential to continue the collection of railings, the need for this type of scrap being as great as when the scheme started.

    Shipyard Timber, Garvel (Use)
    Mr. McNeilasked the Minister of Supply, by whose authority Oregon pine from the Garvel shipyard was utilised for repairing a greenhouse at a private residence, of which he has been informed, between the dates of 27th April and 20th

    1385
    May; whether a licence was obtained for the timber for this purpose; by whom it was issued and at what does?
    Sir A. Duncan: No licence has been issued authorizing use of the timber in question for the purpose named.
    Mr. McNeil: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me, though I know how very small an amount of timber is involved, whether this constitutes an offence or irregularity against which the Department will proceed?
    Sir A. Duncan: I understand that the amount involved was less than a pound's worth. If an application had been made for a repair job, such as this was, there is no doubt that a licence would have been granted. We have, however, reprimanded the firm for not applying for one.
    Mr. McNeil: Although this is a small amount, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a technical offence was committed?

    Raw Materials (Paper) Order
    Sir Reginald Clarryasked the Minister of Supply whether the terms of the licences proposed to be issued under Article 5 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Raw Materials (Paper) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1394, of 1943) will be incorporated in a subsequent Order or whether it is contemplated that the terms may vary from licensee to licensee?
    Sir A. Duncan: Any licences issued would relate to individual cases of hardship or other special circumstances. If occasion should at any time arise for a general relaxation, it would be made by a further Order.

    Tyres (Re-Treading)
    Captain Stricklandasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware of the shortage of retreaded tyres available for distribution; has his attention been directed to the accumulation of worn tyres, suitable for retreading, now held by the new tyre manufacturers; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy this situation?
    Sir A. Duncan: There has been a temporary shortage of certain sizes of tyres, both new and retreaded, for civilian use. Steps are being taken to recruit the required workers in order to make full use of the available capacity.

  FOOD SUPPLIES

    Condensed Milk Order
    Sir Herbert Williamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food the reason for the issue of a corrigendum slip in connection with the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Condensed Milk) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1396, of 1943), correcting the words "Full Cream Sweetened," to the words "Full Cream Unsweetened "?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Mabane): The corrigendum slip to which my hon. Friend refers was issued because the Order as published differed from the Order as signed.
    Sir H. Williams: Do I understand that proof-reading is so carelessly done that the Stationery Department prints documents different from those which Ministers have authorised?
    Mr. Mabane: I cannot answer for the Stationery Office.
    Sir H. Williams: Has the right hoi. Gentleman discovered how this strange mistake was made?
    Mr. Mabane: The Stationery Office admits liability.

    Customers' Registration (Appeal Against Transfer)
    Sir H. Williamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why his Department authorised an advertisement which provided for the transfer of the registrations of the customers of Ernest Gould and W. H. Rollinson, of Dudley, to Messrs. Wathes, Cattell and Gurden, of Birmingham, and Messrs. Lawley Bros., of Lower Gornal, subject to the condition that customers were members of a co-operative society and have a right of appeal against their transfer, while other customers are denied this right of appeal?
    Mr. Mabane: In cases of changes of ownership of retail milk businesses in areas where a scheme of rationalisation is in force certain transfers of consumer registration have commonly to be made. In order to meet the convenience of consumers, local officers were instructed on 30th September, 1943, to publish a notice in the local Press to inform consumers of the arrangements for the transfer of regis-

    1387
    rations, and it was in accordance with this general instruction that the notice to which my hon. Friend refers was published.
    Sir H. Williams: Is it reasonable that co-operative society members who were dealing with private firms should have privileges as compared with other people?
    Mr. Mabane: That is not the whole of the case because, when a co-operative society buys the business of a private distributor, consumers who are not registered as members of a co-operative society may opt not to register with the co-operative society but may transfer to another private distributor, so it works both ways.

    Fish Order
    Squadron-Leader Donnerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) whether he is aware that the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Fish) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1229, 1943), which was signed on loth August, and was in operation only from 21st August until 28th August inclusive, was not available to Members in the House of Commons until 25th August; and what is the meaning in the Order of the words "roused herrings and sprinkled herrings.";
    (2) whether he is aware that the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Fish) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1229, 1943), remained in force for one week only in August; will he state why the Order was made and withdrawn and give an assurance that Orders will not be made unnecessarily?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir. I am aware that Statutory Rule and Order 1229 of 1943 remained in force for one week only, the period for which it was made, and I am aware that it was not available to hon. Members until the 25th August. The Order was made because heavy landings of herrings were reaching the ports, and it was necessary to bring them into consumption. My hon. Friend will appreciate that landings of herrings are very variable and that had the operation of this Order been delayed until copies could have been in the hands of hon. Members the herrings would by that time have been bad. "Rousing" and "sprinkling" describe simple methods of preserving herrings.
    Commander Locker-Lampson: Cannot bad herrings be used for manure?
    Mr. Mabane: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Levyasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what was intended to be meant by sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph (1) of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Food (Fish) Order (S.R. & O., No. 1445, of 1943), which reads "Dogfish flaps sold separately shall not be regarded as illets"?
    Mr. Mabane: As I informed the hon. Member for Stretford on 12th May, 1943, flaps, including dog-fish flaps, are lugs or belly walls and the intention of the subparagraph referred to is to prevent the allocation of dog-fish flaps as fillets.
    Mr. Levy: Does my right hon. Friend not recognise that even the trade does not understand this? Why not put it in plain and simple language, so that we can understand what it is all about?
    Mr. Mabane: I do not think any language can be more plain and simple. It is quite untrue to say that the trade does not know what these terms are. Of course the trade knows.

    Milk Distributors' Margin
    Brigadier-General Clifton Brownasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the allowance to milk distributors for expenses and profit recommended by Lord Perry's Committee in 1940 to be 8d. per gallon has been exceeded; and if so, why?
    Mr. Mabane: The recommendations of the Perry Committee including the recommendations to limit the distributors' margin to 8d. a gallon were not accepted by His Majesty's Government. The distributors' margin was not then and has not since been as low as 8d. a gallon, and evidence was produced to the Committee that, even at that time and under war conditions, many distributors would have found it impossible to continue in business under the margin recommended. I am not able fully to develop the considerations involved within the limits of an oral answer but I would refer my hon. Friend to the statements made by my Noble Friend in another place on 18th March, 1941, and 1st April, 1943.

    Milk Producer-Retailers
    Brigadier-General Brownasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry

    1389
    of Food what is the number of milk producer-retailers now; and what were their numbers two years ago before the present milk transport regulations came into force?
    Mr. Mabane: The number of milk producer-retailers in England and Wales on 1st September, 1943, the latest date for which information is available, was 57,564 as compared with 63,307 on the corresponding date in 1941.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN
    John Michael Henry Hely Hutchinson, Esquire, commonly called Viscount Suirdale, for the County of Northampton with the Soke of Peterborough (Peterborough Division).

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Wage-earners' Income Tax Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."— [Mr. Attlee.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  WAYS AND MEANS [14th October]
  Resolution reported,

  WAGE EARNERS' INCOME TAX
  "That under any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to income tax in respect of emoluments, employers and others may be required, during the period beginning with the first day of February. nineteen hundred and forty-four and ending with the fifth day of April in that year, to make deductions on account of the tax which will or may become chargeable for the year notwithstanding that the relevant assessments have not then been made."
  Resolution agreed to.

  WAGE-EARNERS INCOME TAX BILL
  Considered in Committee.
  [Major MILNER in the Chair]

  WAGE-EARNERS INCOME TAX BILL

    CLAUSE 1.—(Basis of charge and method of collection of income tax on certain emoluments.)
    The Chairman: Mr. Summers.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: On a point of Order. I think it must be clear to the Committee that the discussion on the Amendment that you have now called is very closely associated with the Amendment in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to insert a new Schedule, and that it will be practically impossible not to discuss those two Amendments together, and I suggest that, with the approval of the Committee, it would be desirable if we might discuss them at one and the same time, which will shorten the discussion and be much more helpful to the Committee as a whole, and I suggest that you therefore allow that course to be taken.
    The Chairman: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me an opportunity of saying a word or two on the form that the discussion might take. If the Committee is agreeable, I propose that

    1403
    the discussion on the whole question of the extension of the pay-as-you-earn system might perhaps take place on this Amendment and that reference be permitted to the Schedule to be moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the two matters appear to hang together. If the Committee agrees, the discussion might perhaps take that form. May I take it that the Committee agrees?
    Mr. Mander (Wolverhampton, East): On a point of Order. Do I understand that the discussion which is to take place will cover my Amendment, in Clause 1, page 1, line 16, at the end, to insert:
    "all emoluments assessed under Schedule E of the Income Tax Act, 1918, as amended by subsequent enactments,"
    which comes before that of my hon. Friend and covers the same ground?
    The Chairman: I had not selected the hon. Member's Amendment. I thought that if there was to be a general discussion, it could take place more usefully upon the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Northampton.
    Mr. Hutchinson (Ilford): There is upon the Order Paper an Amendment in my name and in the names of some of my hon. Friends, and also an Amendment to the Schedule which is to be moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in my name and the name of the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke). The question raised by all those Amendments, both those to the Bill and those to the Schedule, is substantially identical with the question raised by the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers) and the question raised upon the Schedule moved by the Chancellor. In those circumstances would it not be for the convenience of the Committee that the Amendments in my name both to the Bill and to the Schedule should be discussed at the same time?
    The Chairman: If the Committee agree, I have no objection. It will be understood that all the proposals with regard to the extension of the pay-as-you-earn system will be discussed on the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Northampton.
    Major Sir George Davies (Yeovil): Is it to be understood that when we reach the Schedule the Debate upon it will be
    1404
    completely curtailed because of the Debate now and that it will merely come before us formally?
    The Chairman: That is so.
    Mr. Summers (Northampton): I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, to leave out "by way of manual labour," and to insert:
    "chargeable under Schedule E of the Income Tax Act, 1918, as amended by subsequent enactments."
    I hope it will be clear that this Amendment is not promoted by a desire to force the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go further than he indicated in his Second Reading speech that he was then prepared to go. As evidence of that, I would point out that this Amendment dealing with the scope of the wage-earners' scheme was, in fact, on the Order Paper before the Chancellor made his Second Reading speech, so there can be no suggestion that, having obtained a little, one was induced to ask for still more. I hope the Amendment will be judged solely upon its merits, and in that connection I would like to draw attention to two passages in the Chancellor's speech on Second Reading which have a direct bearing on the extent to which the scheme should go. He said:
    "If Income Tax were being started afresh as a new tax I have no doubt that the new system would be applied universally to employment."
    In another passage he said:
    "I regard the principle of pay-as-you-earn as valid and suitable for general application at the proper time and in the proper way, and should like to work up to that." [OFFICIAL REPORT, [14th October, 1943, cols. 1101-2,Vol. 392]
    I do not think it needs any detailed explanation to show that the purport of this Amendment is to extend the benefits and the principles of this new scheme to all who are enjoying income from employment. Arguments have already been used on the technical side which I will touch on lightly, but to go into detail would be merely to repeat what has already been said. It is worth noting that in so much as the principle appears to have been conceded that once a person is under the pay-as-you-earn scheme he will remain under it, regardless of his future income, it will inevitably follow that a person below the datum line —if there is one, and that is the position contemplated by the Chancellor's Amendment—at the outset of the scheme, who in subsequent years rises to a substantially

    1405
    higher income, will continue under the scheme and will have his tax discharged for the current period, whereas a person immediately above the datum line may, when the time comes have an income substantially smaller than the man who has risen, and will be in a very anomalous position. There is also the position of two people who are doing virtually the same work, one of whom may be paid, say, £700 a year and the other, in another firm or in another position, paid £500 a year. The work is the same, the standard of living is the same, the obligations are the same, yet the one, owing to the arbitrary dividing line between them, has the benefit of discharging and evening out his obligations now, while the other, merely because his firm has found it possible to pay him the larger salary, will, in fact, be denied the benefits of his opposite number.
    One of the points which has been mentioned is the difficulty which would arise if this scheme were extended above £600 a year and confined to Schedule E taxpayers because of the discrimination in their favour against those coming under Schedule D, shopkeepers and other people, who might claim that their need for such discharge of tax was no less great than in the case of those under Schedule E. But if we are to give the benefit of this scheme to people enjoying earned income up to £600 a year, below that datum line there will be many anomalous cases of just that kind, and it seems to me that it would not increase the anomalies under that heading to go above £600 a year. The position is there, it has to be faced, and if it can be resolved so much the better; but there is no escape from it by confining this scheme to £600 a year.
    There is another point, and here one is at some disadvantage through having difficulty in understanding the Amendment in the name of the Chancellor. It is very involved. Whether it could have been shorter, only those who are more expert than I could say, but it does give the impression that whether a person comes under the scheme or not will be judged by whether in the year 1943–44 he is above or below the £600 a year figure. But that year is not yet finished, with the result that there must be a marked incentive to individuals for the remainder of that period to ensure that by their labours they do not bring themselves just above
    1406
    the datum line before the scheme is introduced. That is a thoroughly unfortunate incentive to introduce at the present juncture of the war. The Chancellor indicated that on broad principles he was sympathetic with the idea, and I have quoted passages from his speech to illustrate that fact. But in the Second Reading Debate he told us that he must have regard to the cost of this proposed extension. He said it would cost an additional £7,000,000 to extend the scope of the scheme to those earning up to £600 a year, and that to go to the limit of Schedule E Income Tax payers, would mean a further £53,000,000. Those estimates will be affected by what happens in the future and by the income which the beneficiary will have at the time he retires or when he dies. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] My hon. Friend opposite appears to take a different view. I do not know that it is possible on this occasion to argue a technical point of that kind, but it seems clear that what happens in the future will have a marked bearing on the cost of a scheme of this kind.
    It is said that those whom it was originally intended to include would be unable to meet their obligations when normal times came and their incomes fell substantially, and that a loss to the Treasury—which incidentally is merely all the taxpayers—would be inevitable and that, therefore, to discharge tax was merely anticipating to a certain extent what would inevitably follow in due time. I suggest that it is a thoroughly unsatisfactory point of view to take on this question, to say that those whose position enables them to discharge their debts shall not have those debts forgiven, but those whose position makes it doubtful that they will be able to discharge their debts are to have some concession granted to them. That seems to be a distinction which ought not to be allowed to enter into the justification for the extension of this scheme. If it is right and proper that a remission of tax should be given, it ought not to be affected by whether, in fact, people will pay these taxes in the end or not.
    The Chancellor says that in times like these he must have regard to the cost. That would have a more convincing appearance if the cost, such as it is, had to be borne now, but the cost which this scheme entails will not be borne now. It will be borne in the years to come—25 or

    1407
    30 or 35 or even 40 years hence—because it falls solely when the individual retires from work or dies. That process goes on year after year. If we take the Chancellor's figure of £53,000,000, without discounting a substantial amount for the reasons which I have mentioned, it can scarcely be more than £2,000,000 a year over the years that are to come, and I suggest that a gross figure of £2,000,000, which may be substantially less, is not, on grounds of cost alone, a good reason to deprive certain types of paid employment of the advantage offered to those in lower categories.
    Mr. Bowles (Nuneaton): May I ask my hon. Friend one question? He keeps referring to the benefit which people are going to obtain under this scheme, but surely anybody with a rising salary would lose under the scheme. To take an extreme example, suppose the case of the man who had an income of £1,000 last year, who has £2,000 this year and who will have £3,000 next year. Leaving out the question of reliefs, suppose that he pays £500 this year on the previous year's income. If this scheme is applied to a man such as I visualise, he will be paying £1,000 tax this year. It will cost him £500 more, if the scheme is applied to him.
    Mr. Summers: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that point, because that is merely a further inducement to the Chancellor to extend the scope of this scheme. In fact, all those with rising incomes will, as my hon. Friend says, have rather more to pay than they would have had to pay if the scheme had not been introduced, and that is another item to be taken into account in discounting the ultimate cost of extending the scheme. It was urged with considerable force by my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. Graham White) during the Second Reading Debate that it was of great importance to introduce this scheme with the least friction, the greatest amount of understanding and the minimum of additional work to the already harassed staffs of the employers. Simplicity, therefore, is an extremely important point in considering the merits of the scheme, and the submit that to have a dividing line at all is only detracting from the simplicity of the scheme and the
    1408
    opportunities of making it work. I was horrified at one passage in the Amendment which stands in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is to the effect that in assessing the income, to determine whether it is above or below the datum line, overtime is to be ignored. I do not know whether those who drafted the Amendment are familiar with the method of calculating wages in industry, but I am satisfied that to attempt to take out overtime from the weekly wages of those in employment will be a fantastic and indeed impossible task.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): May I interrupt my hon. Friend on a point of fact? That does not apply to weekly wages.
    Mr. Summers: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that correction. In so far as it does not apply to weekly wages, the apprehension which one felt will be correspondingly reduced, but I am not sure, even now, that the introduction of the point of overtime at all will not lead to endless trouble, because wherever it comes—and if it is not the weekly wage-earner it must be somebody else, or it would not be introduced—it will, inevitably, lead to intense additional difficulty for people operating this scheme.
    There is one last point which I would ask the Committee to consider in judging the merits of the plea that this scheme should be extended to all Schedule E Income Tax payers. In the last speech which the Prime Minister made in this House he said:
    "This island is a model to the world in its unity and perseverance towards the goal."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th October, 1943, col. 933, Vol. 392.]
    I believe one of the great features of our national life at the present time is its unity, Here we are seeking, by having a dividing line in this scheme between those up to £600 and those above it, to divide the unity of treatment of people who are similarly situated. I do suggest that not only are there no good technical grounds for such a distinction but that we ought to do nothing to impair in this way similarity of treatment for people who are in similar circumstances. We are all in this war together; the people who are employed in the same way should be treated in the same way. I urge the Chancellor not to be dismayed by the cost but

    1409
    to take the broadest possible view and to recognise that there is a desire for the extension of this scheme, not only in all quarters of the House, but throughout the country as well. The Prime Minister once said to America:
    "Send us the tools, and we will finish the job."
    I ask the Chancellor to remember that he has the tools, and I ask him to finish this job.
    Mr. Mander: I beg to support the Amendment. The Chancellor said the other day that his mind was not closed and that he was prepared to extend the system at the proper time in the way now proposed. I hope that as a result of the Debate he will come to the conclusion that the proper time is now and that he will feel that, as a result of representations that will be widely made to him in the Debate, the country as a whole desire this Amendment. Hon. Members have had many representations and received many deputations, and there is no doubt of the very strong feeling in the country that this proposal should be extended the whole way now. The Chancellor is a good House of Commons man, and I am sure that he desires to act in accordance with the views expressed here. If he finds there is strong pressure from all sides to go the whole hog, I hope he will feel it right to advise the Government that the proper time is now. The most difficult side of the matter has already been dealt with. I can understand the Government saying that the scheme has so many complications and was so difficult that they could not consider putting it into operation in war-time, but that part has been got over, and to put it fully into operation is not so difficult. It is an easier task to apply it to persons above £600. I do not think the Chancellor would be likely to lose money over adopting the Amendment, on the whole, owing to the circumstances now existing, but even if he did it would not seem to be a good reason for not accepting the Amendment.
    A further point is that the proposal as it now stands is definitely anti-social. We are anxious to encourage longer terms of engagement for our workers, not simply by the hour, day, or week, but tending to the month or more. In its present form the proposal definitely encourages engagement for no longer than one week, and
    1410
    ought therefore to be looked at very closely indeed. There is the complication that some persons are paid not only a weekly wage but also an annual bonus. It is desirable that every section of the Committee should express its views to the Chancellor, and I shall be glad to see an extension made in the terms of the Bill.
    Mr. Burden (Sheffield, Park): I support the Amendment, moved in such admirable terms by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers). The Chancellor has received many well-merited congratulations, and it may seem somewhat Ungracious to ask him for further concessions, but by inference he has admitted the justice of the claim embodied in the Amendment, that his proposal should apply equally to all. He seemed to reject the claim merely on grounds of expediency. His proposal received very careful consideration by the organisations representing non-manual workers. While those organisations fully appreciate the value of his proposals, so far as they go—and that remark applies particularly to the Railway Clerks' Association—they are unanimous in asking the Chancellor to widen the scope of the proposals to bring in everybody who is assessed under Schedule E. The Railway Clerks' Association, the National Union of Teachers, the National Federation of Professional Workers, and the National Association of Local Government Officers, fully representative and able to speak with authority for their members, are unanimous in asking the Chancellor to wipe out the £600 per year limit.
    The case for this extension is simple. The present proposals are unjust in their incidence and will create endless anomalies. To-day, for example, owing to extended hours, war increases and extraneous duties, many officers in the local government service are above the £ limit. Sooner or later—and I expect we all wish it may be sooner—those amounts of additional remuneration will cease, and the officers will be compelled to pay, out of their decreased salaries, Income Tax at the higher rates. The Chancellor's proposals are intended to put right that very point for other sections of the community. I would point out another anomaly which is bound to arise. When the officers revert to their normal pre-war salaries, many of them will be below the £600 limit, and there will be cases in an office

    1411
    or Department where some who have been above the £600 and have reverted to a lower figure will be working with people on the same rates of pay, and one of them will be paying Income Tax on the new system and one on the old. For tidiness and good administration that state of affairs should not obtain.
    There is one further point. In the local government service to-day are men above the £600 limit who are willingly and cheerfully carrying out many additional responsibilities imposed upon local authorities by the Government—Civil Defence, Fire Guard organisation, billeting and rehousing of homeless, fuel control, and so on—and doing so with sadly depleted staffs. They are working longer hours and giving up their holidays. I submit that they are making a really vital contribution to the country's war effort, and I would beg the Chancellor not to leave these men with a sense of injustice and of unfair treatment. The right hon. Gentleman has started on his journey with the good wishes of us all; perhaps I may recall to him Shakespeare's words:
    "A merry heart goes all the day,
    Your sad tires in a mile-a."
    Mr. Hutchinson (Ilford): I desire to support the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers). The hon. Member reminded the Committee of the general sense of disappointment to which the limitation placed by the Chancellor upon this scheme has given rise, because it seems that one class is being given an advantage which is not to be extended to another. The feeling has been aroused that the scheme represents a departure from the generally accepted basis of equality of sacrifice and burden for all classes of the community, in so far as is practicable. In his speech in the Second Reading Debate the Chancellor seemed inclined at first to use the argument that salary earners did not experience the same fluctuations and instability of income as weekly wage-earning classes. Then he departed from that argument. His objection to extending the pay-as-you-earn system above £600 finally rested upon the loss which would be involved to the Exchequer. I propose, therefore, to address myself to that question and to consider how far such loss is real and how far it is of a notional character.
    1412
    The Chancellor estimated the loss involved in extending this system to all classes of Schedule E taxpayers at £60,000,000. I am not quite sure whether that takes into account repayment of postwar credits, but I assume that it is the net loss, I understand that the loss involved by extending the system up to the £600 income limit will be £7,000,000, and therefore the further loss in extending it to all Schedule E taxpayers would be £53,000,000, after taking into account the repayment of post-war credits. The sum which is involved is thus a net estimated sum of £53,000,000. That loss is not of course a loss which will be incurred by the Exchequer at once. I think that the easiest way to look at it is this: If this country were to go into liquidation and its assets were to be realised, there would be, of course, a loss of £53,000,000. But there is some hope that that state of affairs will not arise. Therefore the loss is not one which will fall upon the Exchequer at any particular moment but will be extended over a very long period. That is to say that this loss, as I understand it, will arise bit by bit as those persons who were assessed for Income Tax in the tax year 1943–44 die or retire on retired pay or superannuation. Then, bit by bit, by reason of the fact that certain arrears of tax payable in the change-over to pay as you earn will be discharged, there will be a loss to the Exchequer of the arrears of tax from those taxpayers who were assessed to tax in the year 1943–44 when they cease work. Many persons who were assessed to Income Tax in the tax year 1943–44 are likely to live for quite a long time. Therefore this is a loss which will be spread out over a very long period.
    The Exchequer will, like other people, have to discount the extent of the loss by reason of the fact that it will be postponed for a very long time. As against that, the Treasury will get this advantage: It will collect certain Income Tax at an earlier period than if the present system of assessment was to be maintained. The Treasury would get this advantage in the case of salary-earners whose salaries exceed £600 a year. It is not an unsubstantial amount. They will, too, avoid those arrears of uncollectable tax which at the present time are quite a formidable proportion of the bad debts made by the Inland Revenue. Thus they will not only get the tax earlier but will avoid having

    1413
    to get it from widows or from small estates or even insolvent estates. There is a much greater certainty of the collection of tax which is paid under the principle of pay-as-you-earn rather than under the present method of collection.
    The hon. Member for Northampton pointed out that it is, of course, a fact that extending the pay-as-you-earn system to all classes of salaried earners will not remove altogether anomalies between different categories of taxpayers. You have still got the Schedule D taxpayers who will not be brought within the scope of pay-as-you-earn. That is perfectly true. I hope that at some future time it will be possible to devise a method of tax collection which will make it possible to apply the principle of pay-as-you-earn to Schedule D taxpayers as well as to Schedule E. But one thing is quite plain —that the system which is embodied in this Bill cannot under any circumstances be applied to Schedule D taxpayers. Therefore we have to leave that class of taxpayers out of account for the moment and hope that they may be brought within pay-as-you-earn later on. It is plain that the Schedule D Income Tax payers cannot be brought into this scheme. But because that anomaly persists there is no reason why other anomalies which will be involved by the dividing line proposed by the Chancellor should be perpetuated too. Indeed the anomalies which will arise from this pay-as-you-earn scheme very largely have their origin in the fact that it is being applied to different classes of taxpayers in different ways. The more you continue to do that, the more likely you are to find that the system will give rise to anomalies. If this system of pay-as you-earn had been applied to the wage-earning class, as some hoped that it would be, at the time when they were first brought within the scope of the Income Tax, this question of the discharge of a proportion of their uncollected tax would never have arisen at all, and that anomaly would have been avoided. I think the House is determined that at some time all classes of Schedule E taxpayers will have to be brought into this scheme. If we postpone the time when they are to be brought in until some later date the result will he that we shall be faced with still further anomalies. The only way you can effectively avoid anomalies in a change of this sort is to bring the greatest number of taxpayers within the same.
    1414
    category into the scheme at the same time.. That is what this amendment invites the Chancellor to do.
    The hon. Member for Northampton also referred to the Amendment to be moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and pointed out that overtime earnings were not to be included in respect of those assessed under the pay-as-you-earn system. I understand that that does not include the overtime earnings of weekly wage-earners. But I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether that involves a separate assessment to be made for the overtime earnings of salaried workers. I am not quite clear. Perhaps my right hon. Friend will be able to deal with this at a later stage. I am not at present able to see how, if overtime earnings are not to be included in the earnings to be assessed under the pay-as-you-earn system and are not to be the subject of a separate assessment, the Income Tax on those earnings is to be collected.
    I hope my right hon. Friend will see his way to accept this Amendment or at any rate to give us some assurance that perhaps next year or at a later stage he will take the necessary steps to extend this system to every class of salary-earners. The feeling in the House and outside the House is really unanimous that we ought not to make this differentiation between one class of taxpayer and another. I hope the Chancellor will see his way to meet the wishes of the House and the country.
    Mr. Willkun Brown (Rugby): I shall occupy the time of the Committee for less than five minutes. I should first like to say that it would be ungracious on my part not to acknowledge the response which the Chancellor has made to the speech which I made on the subject on Second Reading, not only for the admission of salary earners but specifically for the admission of servants of the Crown. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made good that deficiency. I wish to express my gratitude to him in that regard. The case for the Amendment now before the Committee was, in my view, so completely stated by the Mover that there is very little left to be said. But there is one thing to be said, and this is all I shall say. When the Chancellor moved the Second Reading of the Bill he explained that he would not include the salaried workers because their position was

    1415
    fundamentally different from that of the wage-earners. He argued that in the case of the wage-earners they were confronted with a possibility of sharp contractions and expansions of income and that therefore the pay-as-you-earn principle should be applied. With the salaried worker, he argued, the liability to fluctuation was very much less, and therefore the need for a pay-as-you-earn basis was not so pressing. So far as that second argument was concerned, I think it is disposed of by the circumstance that the Chancellor is including the salaried earner up to £600 a year, so that that argument goes by the board.
    Having jumped that hedge, we come to this position. If the Chancellor was right in saying, when I raised the question of Crown servants, that from some points of view it would be a disadvantage to them to come in because those getting increments year by year would pay on this year's salary and thus would pay more than under the present system of paying this year on the basis of last year's salary, if that is true—and I do not dispute it—then the more salaried earners he brings into the Bill the less the loss to the Exchequer. That seems to me to be a logical argument. It is an argument of mine that there should be some relation between logic and fact. Also on top of that he gets his tax earlier. That is an argument which would not apply to the Crown servant, because he has always been in the position of paying throughout the year from the beginning of the tax year. I shall ask the Chancellor later for a rebate of seven months for the Crown servants, in order to put them in exactly the same position as those in other employment. The more we extend the scope of this Bill now, the more tax will he collect in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth and six months of the year instead of getting it in arrears, and, moreover, the assessment will be on a higher basis than it would be if the salary-earners are left out. On all these grounds I wish to say to the Chancellor that here, if ever, there is a case in which the old words are true:
    "Now is the accepted time, now is the day of salvation."
    Major Sir George Davies (Yeovil): I wish to put one consideration. Arising out of the Chancellor's speech on the Second Reading and the Amendment he has himself put on the Order Paper, it is
    1416
    clear that the principle has been admitted. The situation therefore arises, Where is a datum or dividing line to be drawn? That always gives rise to difficulties in regard to questions of those just above and below. You get an old age pensioner of 65, but the person of 64 years six months is probably in just as great need. If you landed in France in the last war after a certain minute of the clock, you did not get the 1914 Star. That sort of difficulty must always be the case. It seems to me that the real point of consideration is this question of the datum line. In dealing with this matter, I think we must bear in mind two considerations. Our people as a whole have suffered very severe burdens in connection with, first, rationing and, secondly, taxation, in the course of this war. Complaints have been few. The burdens have been willingly borne, for two reasons—because there has been general agreement that they have been inevitable and the feeling that as far as possible they have been fairly distributed.
    Lots of us have had our post bags full of representations of various sorts in connection with the matter which we are discussing to-day. I confess it leaves me cold when people suggest that they have been discriminated against, because they would be just as well off, as things are to-day, without or with this extension. But what cuts some ice is the idea that justice should not only be done but should appear to be done. We want to carry on for the rest of the war with the same united will as hitherto, based on the feeling that, however disagreeable, things are fair. I do not believe that the dividing line at £600 year will appear to do justice. The only objection I have to the speech of the Chancellor on Second Reading and to the Debate so far is that I doubt whether we can afford it. Sir William Beveridge speaks of whether we can afford not to afford things. That carries no conviction with me. The bogy of £53,000,000 has been waggled at us—and I think it is a bogy. It is obvious that if we went into immediate bankruptcy and had to dig up money we should have to find £53,000,000, but I do not believe that that is going to worry anybody.
    Mr. Hutchinson: It would not be necessary to find the sum, but the Exchequer would not be entitled to collect it.
    Sir G. Davies: That is true, but I should say that it is as broad as it is long. We have to face the provision of an additional £53,000,000 or the loss of £53,000,000. It would be spread over an x number of years, and the actual amount that the nation would be out of pocket would be quite within our means. The principle has been admitted. The fixing of the datum line is the only thing to be considered, and if we want to have a united nation, satisfied that we are playing fair and spreading the burden equally, the Chancellor should accept this Amendment or something equivalent.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence (Edinburgh, East): I rise to put two points to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The first is that there is no division on this matter between different sections in this House. The people behind me are just as desirous of seeing this Amendment agreed to as is the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers) himself. The second point is that I think every Member is anxious to give the Chancellor his warmest thanks for the concessions he has given, and not to embarrass a man who has come forward in his new position with a great desire to do the work thoroughly. But, with all that, there is in the House a firm determination that now is the time for going the whole way in this matter. I beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer, unless he can give much stronger reasons than we have had hitherto, not to decide to-day to refuse. It may be that he will want a little more time to think it over. If he is prepared to take the matter back and think about it, I am sure the Committee will be quite willing. But I hope that he will not mistake the feeling of the Committee, owing to our desire to be courteous to him and not to embarrass him, and think that Members are not exceedingly anxious on all sides for this to be done.
    I think it would be a legitimate case to make against this proposal if it could be shown that there were great administrative difficulties in carrying it the whole way. I have endeavoured to conceive administrative difficulties on those lines, and I cannot conceive any. My own view is that the administrative difficulty of drawing this datum line will be very much greater than that of including the whole of Schedule E.I think the Committee ought
    1418
    to give way if the Chancellor showed that the Treasury would be a substantial loser by this proposal, particularly during the continuance of the war. The Chancellor, quite properly, said the other day that he could not face a loss to the Exchequer of something like £60,000,000, but the fact, certainly so far as war-time is concerned, and probably for all the years we can visualize in front of us, is that the Exchequer, instead of losing, will gain by the proposal. When I spoke on the Second Reading, I myself was taken in by this idea of a loss of £60,000,000, and I suggested therefore that the Chancellor should make some demand on people above the datum line, on the lines of what has been done in the United States, and that those people should pay 50 per cent. But it was brought to my notice by my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benson) that, so far from losing anything, the Exchequer would most likely gain. I think the fact is that so long as the total wage and salary bill of this country remains the same, and so long as the rate of taxation remains the same, the Exchequer will not suffer any diminution in any year that we can foresee. If the total wage bill, including salaries, falls, there will be for the first year when the fall comes about a slight reduction in the yield of the tax. If the rate of taxation falls, there will be a slight reduction. We are accustomed to hear any Chancellor of the Exchequer introducing a Budget say that the result of his proposals will be so much in a full year, but that, as they do not affect the beginning of the year, the alteration will be slightly less in the particular year of the introduction of that Budget. That will be so in the case of this alteration. If the alteration be made, it will modify the difference between a full year and the first year in which the change of taxation is imposed. But, apart from that, there will be no loss of revenue whatever as a result of the change, even when a full remission is effected.
    As I pointed out, and as my hon. Friend behind me brought out in the course of the speech by the hon. Member for Northampton—and I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself brought it out in his original speech last Thursday —in many ways the Chancellor of the Exchequer will actually gain. He will certainly gain during the continuance of

    1419
    the war, because salaries and wages are still rising. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer wants an excuse for giving way on this matter, it is obvious that the financial position during the year will improve, and that the real loss will be postponed until the Day of Judgment. I hope that the Chancellor will think again. He was very quick to see that some concession was needed, and in making that concession he met the wish of this House. Now he has been confronted with a very strong body of opinion. I am sure that if the late Chancellor of the Exchequer were here, he would recognise that that strength of opinion could not possibly be resisted. The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows—he said it in his speech —that sooner or later this change will have to come about. I cannot see any advantage in postponing the second half of it until a later year. It will be much more trouble administratively. In the meantime a great many anomalies will have arisen, and he will produce a feeling that the obvious wish of this House and of the country is not being met. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in inaugurating his new reign, will use his wide knowledge, his experience of this House, and his natural kindly feeling to meet a desire which I beg him to believe is not confined to any one section but is shared, as I understand, by every Member of the Committee.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Anderson): It might be for the convenience of the Committee if I intervened at this stage, not, of course, with any idea of curtailing the Debate, but in order that before more Members have made speeches, inevitably covering more or less the same ground, the Committee may be put in possession of the views I have formed on this matter. The Committee have listened to a large number of persuasive speeches, putting forward cogent arguments, and I think the Committee know that in substance I am in sympathy with the case that is put forward. I do not like drawing an arbitrary line. I said on Second Reading that I thought the system of pay-as-you-earn had a great deal to commend it and that if we were starting afresh I felt sure that we would start on that basis. I said that I was in favour of extending it at the proper time and in the proper way and that I intended
    1420
    to work to that end. The Committee, I confess, want me to work to that end rather more speedily than I had contemplated last Thursday. I am sure that the Committee will listen to what I have to say with the attention with which I have certainly listened to all that the previous speakers have had to say. If I appear to be not quite as yielding at this moment as they would wish, I hope that they will not put it down, after they have heard my arguments, to mere obstinacy or to a pig-headed desire to stick to the position I have taken up. I have not had very long in which to consider this complicated matter, and I naturally do not want to act without due deliberation.
    Would the Committee allow me first to deal with the question to which my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) devoted a considerable part of his speech, that is, the precise financial effect of what is involved in this matter of controversy? My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford (Mr. Hutchinson) both described to the Committee in their own words what they thought the process would be. They will forgive me if I put it more definitely and, as I think, rather more accurately. It is not altogether a simple matter to grasp, and, in thinking about it during the last few days, I have found myself in a little intellectual difficulty from time to time. But I think it is like this: We are talking about the question of a discharge of tax liability, and beyond all doubt it is the discharge of tax liability which is involved in these proposals and which constitutes their main attraction. Do not let us make any mistake about that. It is true that there are other considerations, but that is the main attraction. The tax involved is a liability which in the ordinary course would have to be met in the seven months beginning next April. We are not talking about manual wage-earners now; we are talking about salaried people. The amount of that discharge, as I stated on Thursday, is of the order of £60,000,000 in all, of which we have already disposed of part, which, I think, I understated. I said that the discharge involved in going up to £600 was of the order of £7,000,000. It would have been more correct if I had said that

    1421
    it was about £10,000,000. I just say that in passing.
    The effect of that discharge is certainly not immediately felt by the Exchequer, because the place of those who would have been paying that tax is taken by a body of taxpayers, including in very large measure the same people, who will in that period of seven months be paying tax, not on the previous year's assessment, but on current assessment. So that to a very large extent the same people will be paying in that period, and the Exchequer will not on that account suffer any immediate loss. The Exchequer may conceivably gain a little. But let me just say on this point—the point as to whether the Income Tax on pay-as-you-earn apart from any questions of discharge is going to mean gain or loss to the Exchequer—that if we manage our affairs well, I think it will turn out that the total volume of salaries and wages is at present higher than that at which it will stand after the conclusion of hostilities. The effect of this change must be that the Exchequer will lose and the taxpayer will gain, quite apart from any question of discharge. As I have said, the payments will make up the immediate loss due to the discharge.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Will my right hon. Friend take into account the fact that when soldiers come out of the Forces and go into private employment—they are outside this proposal at the present time—they will come into it and will help to swell the wage bill of the country?
    Sir J. Anderson: I know.
    Mr. Woodburn (Stirling and Clackmannan Eastern): There are a great number of people to-day earning salaries of £700 because of the war conditions who had never earned it in their lives before, and presumably after the war there will probably be a slump, and is it not the case that the Treasury is likely to lose a lot of that tax because of their inability to pay?
    Sir J. Anderson: That is another question. I was not considering how far it was recoverable; I was referring to the amount of discharge. As I was saying, the amount of loss by discharge will be made good next year as far as the Exchequer is concerned by a body of taxpayers very largely the same as those who benefit by the discharge. In the next
    1422
    following year a similar process will take place. In the first seven months tax will be paid on a current basis of assessment instead of on the basis of a previous year, not because there has been any discharge in respect of that year, but because the previous year's assessment will have been discharged by payment; and so it will go on like that. I should be sorry to misrepresent my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, but I understood him to say that no loss would arise until the taxpayers die or go out of employment. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford said very much the same thing in different words. He said that the loss would arise bit by bit as the persons assessed die or retire. Actually, when, as my right hon. Friend opposite said, the rate of tax is reduced or when the volume of employment as measured by the aggregate amount of salaries and wages goes down, then a loss will be suffered by the Exchequer. The extent of the loss will depend upon the reduction of tax on one hand and on the reduction of what I call the general salaries bill of the country on the other.
    Mr. Hutchinson: Surely that is a loss which the Exchequer must inevitably suffer.
    Sir J. Anderson: Perhaps my hon. and learned Friend will wait a moment. I have not completed my argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, speaking of the Exchequer, said, and said rightly, that the Treasury is just the same as the general body of taxpayers. So if the factors are as I have stated—and it is important that we should see this thing clearly—what will happen will be that there will be a loss to the Exchequer, which will affect the general body of taxpayers, since the point at which relief from taxation can be given to them must be affected; there is no escape from it. That was the great difficulty that I felt. I do not feel quite comfortable, without the very fullest consideration, about a proposal which involves giving a discharge of tax to a large body of people whose circumstances differ widely, including people on all sorts of salaries and including people getting part-time payment by way of remuneration, unless I am clear that I am not doing something unfair to somebody else. We have all sorts of professional and business men assessed under Schedule D and persons, to use the current

    1423
    phraseology "gainfully occupied," that is, dependent on their own exertions for their earnings. I want to feel sure that I am not doing anything unfair to them.
    One hon. Member—I have forgotten for the moment who it was, but I think it was my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ilford—talked about Schedule D and about the desirability of extending this principle to Schedule D. You certainly cannot extend the same machinery to Schedule D; that is quite clear. But the principle of keeping your payments up to date, paying on your current earnings and not having a hang-over to carry forward is just as valid, as I readily admit, for the engineer, the doctor, or the lawyer as it is for the manager of a great company or a company director or a civil servant, or whoever it may be. That is the thing that sticks in my mind. It is not a question of loss to the Exchequer. I was very glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that if it had been a question of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to submit to some loss, it would not be right to put that pressure upon me. I remember that sentiment, which I think will be supported, but that is not what troubled me. I am troubled by the simple question of trying to do justice all round. The Committee may say that I have already queered the pitch by what I have done. My answer to that is that there was compelling urgency. It had to be done as a matter of necessity for the wage-earner, who had to be put on pay-as-you-earn. Then my predecessor thought that the non-manual wage-earner should be put on the same footing as the manual wage-earner. I in my turn felt that it was perhaps hard to draw a distinction between a man on a weekly wage, which might be a very high weekly wage, and the salary of a person who might be no better off. Therefore I agreed last Thursday to include the lower ranges of salary. Of course, by doing that I create anomalies, which I regret. They are not always as great as some hon. Members suppose, because if a person who has been above £600 reverts and goes below £600, he will have to be put on pay-as-you-earn.
    I have indicated thus the sort of consideration that weighed with me. I felt that it could not fairly be said that it was of great urgent importance to do the whole thing now. We are not completing the
    1424
    job even in this Bill. We shall have to deal in the next Finance Bill with all sorts of different transitional questions. The thing is not being tidied up and cannot be completely tidied up in this Bill, and therefore I think it is perhaps not unreasonable for me to say to the Committee that I am in sympathy, as indeed I am, with the representations put forward. But I do propose to ask for a little more time to consider the matter in all its bearings and see what is best to be done. That is all that I think I can say at this moment, and either I or my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary will be speaking at a later stage perhaps on this topic and certainly on many of the other points which have been raised.
    Sir Alfred Beit (St. Pancras, South-East): The Committee has listened with care and attention to the statement made by the right hon Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the admirable impression which he created in introducing the Bill and in making the original concession has been, I am sure, repeated in the minds of his hearers to-day when they realised the way in which he has approached this very difficult subject. I am one of the signatories to the Amendment, and I, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers) and all others who have spoken on this subject, desire to see it brought into effect. But it will be only right, as I was fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Williams, immediately after the Chancellor sat down, if I addressed a few words to the considerations which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has brought forward. I do not quite know what he means by the further consideration he is prepared to give to this matter, but from something he said immediately previous to that I got the impression that his mind is now on expansion bent and that he is prepared to go further in this direction, possibly even to other Schedules, as time passes. I did get the impression that in a Finance.Bill in the relatively near future we might have the hope of seeing further action taken.
    If the Financial Secretary could confirm that opinion or hold out any more hopes on that subject, I do not suppose the Committee would want to press the Chancellor any further on the matter to-day. But I would hope to be re-assured when the Financial Secretary replies that there

    1425
    is a very genuine prospect of further extensions being made. I very much appreciate what the Chancellor has said, but at the same time I fear that he has been rather obsessed by these thoughts of unfairness to other persons and classes. When all is said and done, we are only dealing with legislation which, by its very nature, can only affect Schedule E taxpayers, and nobody, except by way of illustration, has had much to say for Schedule D taxpayers or any other Schedules of taxpayers. The person who corresponds to the Schedule D taxpayer in America has been covered by legislation there on the subject, but I understand that it is a very complicated form of legislation and one which will offer great difficulties to the taxpayer. Whether that is so or not, the fact is that we are only concerned with the Schedule E taxpayer, and that shopkeepers, lawyers, doctors and members of other classes who have been mentioned to-day and last week have not had their hopes raised in any way whatsoever, because they knew they were not being considered in this matter. On the other hand, the Schedule E taxpayers, owing to the united voice with which the House has spoken and united opinion in the country, have had ample reason during the last few days to expect that their case would be placed on an equal basis with every other member of the Schedule E taxpaying class.
    That is the reason why I implore the Chancellor not to worry too much about doctors, lawyers and the rest of them but to deal with the Schedule E taxpayers first. Having got that settled, perhaps he can go on and think of the other Schedules, but at present let us deal with one matter at a time and try to get this business extended to all classes of Schedule E payers. The Chancellor was right in saying that a lesser volume of employment and a lower rate of tax would in all probability be factors that would lead to a smaller intake to the Exchequer, but he also admitted that this was a matter which was inescapable and was likely to happen in any case. So far as a reduction of tax is concerned, which he can control more directly than he can the volume of employment, if by the extension to the whole of Schedule E he suffers a loss of income he can always postpone the reduction of the tax for one year in order to put his accounts into proper shape. So I hope that he will not let that fear act as a deter-
    1426
    rent in introducing this Amendment. I am aware that the Treasury at all times are reluctant to give up any income which they can collect with relative facility, and although I do not know why the figure of £600 a year was decided upon, I rather suspect that one of the arguments advanced may have been that persons earning more than that are those from whom on death or retirement there is no great difficulty in collecting Income Tax. But I very much question the morality of that sort of argument. If you are willing to give concessions to certain persons, you should not limit it at a point where you think the odds are a little more on your side. Therefore, I very much hope that not too long a period will pass before the Chancellor sees the merits of this argument.
    Mr. Woodburn (Stirling and Clackmannan, Eastern): I would first like raise a point with the Chancellor in regard to this matter of the transition period, because I have no particular sympathy with people receiving over £600 a year, and I have not been much impressed by any arguments in favour of relieving them at the expense of other people. I still feel that after the war it will be almost impossible to carry out the financial activities of this country if income is allowed to fall, because the general income of the Chancellor will not be able to meet the claims upon him. I am proceeding upon the assumption that the Government must organise full employment and endeavour to maintain the national income at approximately the level of the existing income. I, therefore, assume that when we pass over to peace there will not be a sudden slump in the general income. If there is, it will be a serious matter, not only from the point of view of this back money, but from the point of view of the general policy of the country.
    The Chancellor may be right if he objects that the purpose of this claim is to obtain remission of this taxation and not genuinely the desire to be put on the new system. If the purpose of this claim for those over £600 a year is merely to get remission of tax it is a different argument, and I have no sympathy with it. But from the point of view of the tidiness of tile financial system all incomes should be brought under a pay-as-you-earn scheme at the earliest moment. So far as I can see, that will come about in any case by

    1427
    gradual changes. Even if all the people now receiving over £600 a year are left out of the scheme, these will gradually fade away even if we do not accept the change to-day. Those under £600 a year will gradually pass into the over £600 class, and if the Chancellor's pledge is maintained they will remain in the pay-as you-earn scheme. So there will be a gradual transition in which those outside the scheme will be wiped out. Therefore, I think the purely sympathetic side does not really amount to much. We ought to discuss the matter from the point of view of the tax system and its general administration. I agree with the Chancellor that the benefits of having one scheme instead of two would be a great improvement, but in supporting this view it does not imply for a moment that if there are some changes, which will take time, that we must make them to-day. I accept the Chancellor's good will in this matter as a pledge that in a short time these anomalies will be wiped out and a comprehensive scheme brought in.
    A great deal of this discussion, I might say, would never have arisen had the Treasury not presented a document which purported to say that the working classes of this country were to have a gift of £250,000,000. That is quite fantastic, and the Treasury in the same document later points out that the Exchequer will suffer no loss at all and that they will gain on the swings what they will lose on the roundabouts. If the Treasury offered to pay my salary a year in advance to the end of my life and not do any reclaiming when the end came, I would be quite prepared to do without this year's salary. This change-over is a meaningless thing. It is simply juggling with figures. The Chancellor will not lose any income, because there will always be new people coming in as the old go out. But in one place his argument falls, and this is a point he has not dealt with. It is the question of how far how many of the taxes he fears to lose will be recoverable for many people over £600 a year when the war comes to an end. I know people who are earning £700 to-day in some administrative posts which have been created by the war and which must automatically go out of existence when the war ends. These people will go back to an income on which they will find it difficult to meet
    1428
    the back-pay demands of the Exchequer. If industry collapses, they may be unemployed, in which case the taxes will not be obtainable at all. In any case a great many will not be able to pay their tax and that is one other reason why the matter should be looked into again.
    In regard to the collection of back-tax, when a person dies I think it is a hard thing that at a time when a widow or children are suffering their greatest loss the Treasury should dun them for money and take more off them. They have to pay Death Duties even on small sums and then comes in addition an account for Income Tax. Sometimes it tends to break their hearts, and there is no doubt of the case—which the Chancellor accepts—for having the money collected from all classes as time goes on. My plea is that the time between now and the bringing-in of these excluded people should be reduced to a minimum. I also think the Chancellor should re-consider the question of whether any real loss will occur to the Treasury, whether it will really cause hardship to the Treasury if this money is remitted, and whether, if so, it could not be done in some other way. As a last resort, if people wanted to come in, there is no reason why they should not pay double taxation next year. I have a recollection that the Treasury at one time advanced the payment of taxation by some months and balanced the Budget by making the figures appear in an earlier balance-sheet. I see no reason why they should not work a similar financial trick and square up their books this time to put everyone on the same basis.
    The Treasury under-estimate their own ability to accomplish things; they thought this whole pay-as-you-earn-proposal was impossible but they have achieved the impossible. I suggest that they look at this matter from the point of view of their own great record in introducing this great scheme and see whether they cannot make it complete and embrace everyone. From the point of view of the workers, I think the Treasury are to be congratulated on their ingenuity in providing a scheme which, so far as I can see, is the fairest scheme ever devised for the collection of Income Tax. It has received a general welcome from the workers and will do much to relieve irritation in the workshops. I hope the fact that from now to April the

    1429
    workers will get off without Income Tax on greater production will stimulate their efforts in that field and that this will go far to improving relationships in industry. The tax as at present administered has created a great deal of friction, but I am glad to say that has shown signs of disappearing.
    Mr. Lewis (Colchester): We are in rather a curious position. The Chancellor has shown beyond all doubt that he is extremely sympathetic to the purpose underlying this Amendment, yet he cannot bring himself to take the financial plunge because of the financial bogy which he sees in front of him, a bogy so insubstantial that even Members like my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), who always speaks with knowledge on these questions, declares there is no bogy at all. It seems a lamentable thing that the wish of the Committee should be set aside by the Minister for a reason so unsubstantial as that. I think possibly my right hon. Friend is making one mistake. I notice that he said something like this. "Make no mistake about it, it is the discharge of tax which is attractive in this proposition." I think he is entirely wrong. Certainly, speaking for myself, if anyone came to this Committee and said a particular class of taxpayers who are already under a liability for tax should be excused that liability, I should resist such a proposition. That is not the attraction of this Amendment at all, at any rate to Members of the Committee. I submit that the attraction is that in future the taxpayers referred to shall have their demand for taxation made to them at a time when they can discharge it. That is the point. The attraction is not some illusory discharge of tax which will not affect the individual for a great number of years. That is not what we are asking the Chancellor to support here. We are asking him to bring about a state of affairs whereby the taxpayer when he gets his demand for taxation can most conveniently meet it.
    I hope the Chancellor will not persist in the idea that all that those who support the Amendment want is that this particular class of taxpayers should be favoured by some discharge of tax. I am sure that that does not express our view. It is not really necessary that the right hon. Gentleman should say "Aye" or "No" to-day. The Bill has other stages
    1430
    to go through. I suggest that it would be seriously worth his while, without in any way committing himself, to say that he will not give a final decision on the subject until the Report stage. I really do not think that is unreasonable. He has filled his office for a very short time and has had this complicated Measure thrown at him with very little time to study it. I really think it is not unreasonable to suggest that he should not come to a final decision one way or another to-day but should take further time to consider it and give his answer on the Report stage.
    Mr. Pritt: I think it is very reasonable that the Chancellor should ask for time to consider this, but I do not think it is reasonable that he should ask for some months to consider it. A very strong opinion is being expressed in the Committee and in the country, and I do not think anyone could suggest that it was in any way a manufactured agitation. It is not the interest of any big interest but that of the whole community trying to play fair by itself. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman ought to ask for more time than the Report stage. I agree with what has been said about people not looking to the discharge of tax liability as the main attraction. Certainly not the people for whom this was originally designed, the manual wage-earners, and I do not think many people with salaries up to £600 or £1,000. I do not think for a moment that they were saying, "We will get out of some tax if we can get this done." They were saying, "We will get out of the awkward situation of paying high Income Tax when our income is low," and it is little compensation to tell them that they may be paying lower tax when their income is higher. I can sympathise with this opinion, because there was a period not long ago when my income was reduced to 10 per cent, of my earnings for the previous year, and the only relief I got was reasonable treatment by the tax collectors, who were prepared to wait till I paid the money.
    I do not want to say much about the discussion as to whether the Treasury will be losing money here and there. It will lose money here and there, and it will gain here and there, and I do not think the right hon. Gentleman put it at all wrongly or unfairly when he said, "If

    1431
    you look to the end of the war, the odds are that the total volume of wages and salaries counted in money may well be lower." The Exchequer would then lose in a sense. That would mean that the Exchequer would not, I think, raise the actual rate of taxation but would reduce it more slowly. If the only price you have to pay for saving a great many people from really acute hardship and a certain measure of resentment, a certain measure perhaps even of is to realise that at some stage in 1945 or 1946 the people who might have hoped to come down from 10s. to 8s. 6d. will only come down from 10s. to 9s. or some figure like that, that is so remote and speculative that it must be very strongly outweighed.
    The right hon. Gentleman said he did not want to be unfair to the general body of taxpayers. This is a question as between the general body of taxpayers and any particular section of them which may be a very large section which is being roughly handled by the circumstances of what they are earning and the way the money is being collected. Every relief that is given must fall back on the general body of taxpayers, and it is really no argument at all to say that you are worrying about the general body of taxpayers. The people you have to consider most are those who are really suffering some really great hardship. One of the weakest parts of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, not because it was a weak speech, but because it was dealing with a case which in some respects is a weak case, was when he described how step by step his predecessor and he had given way, for he was unable to show any logical halting point short of that demanded by the various Amendments that are being discussed. The only argument he produced was that the matter is very much less urgent for these further classes, but what is being said here and the things that are being said and thought and argued in the country show that the urgency is much greater than he seems to think.
    Now I am going to venture into something a little more difficult, because it goes down to details and technicalities, but it is important to be put to show the very acute hardship that is going to happen to many people earning over £600 a year as things stand at present. My attention has been drawn to it by the National Association of Local Govern-
    1432
    ment Officers, who after all understand these things as they affect them, and it seems clear that they affect people in a similar position in commercial occupations, too. To give one illustration, the position that arises where a man retires. After all, we must not think of retirement as something that happens in the remote future. We may all feel young and bright and have no intention of retiring, but some people are older and retire or fall ill and retire, and the sort of position that arises when a local government officer or a commercial employee retires is that his income drops to perhaps 60 per cent. of what it was because it takes the form of a pension or living on savings. Sixty per cent. of a large income is not at all bad, but 60 per cent. of an income between £600 and £1,000, probably when family obligations do not vary very much, is a very substantial drop, during the first period, when he has not been able to adjust himself to his new standard of living in practical methods, like getting into a smaller house; and as things stand at present he has to pay the ordinary full rate of tax on what he is actually getting by way of pension and also to pay tax during a part of the first year on his previous larger earnings, just because he is not on pay-as-you-earn. So that he will be paying double Income Tax or rather more for a period.
    It is that sort of difficulty which is sought to be eliminated—and of course a good many others; this is only one illustration—by the Amendments, and these are matters of real urgency. Whenever anyone takes an illustration, even if it has been provided by thoughtful people who know the details of what they are talking about, it is often said, "You have taken rather an exceptional illustration." Therefore I have this bit of information which shows that this sort of thing must be rather widespread. It looks at first sight like a tiny, narrow section, but I am told that for the next 12 months among persons employed by the Metropolitan borough councils alone the number of persons falling into this class will be 500. If you spread that over the whole country and over commerce as well as local government you get a good many thousands of people, and if that is only one illustration, and I think a fair one, it shows that even that much is a very substantial loss. Other Members have pointed out others, and no

    1433
    doubt others too will be pointed out, but I think it shows that the country is justified in asking the right hon. Gentleman to treat this as a matter of real urgency and hardship, in which, if there is any loss now or next year or the year after, it is one that should be borne by the general body of taxpayers.
    Mr Hely-Hutchinson (Hastings): I wish to endorse the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, without committing himself in any way, should tell us that he will not definitely make up his mind against what we are asking for before the Report stage. We are asking that the provisions of the Bill shall be extended as soon as administratively possible to the whole range of Schedule E taxpayers. Some of us do not like the argument that he must not give way on the whole range of Schedule E taxpayers because that will make it look as if he was being unfair to the Schedule D taxpayers. I suggest that that argument does not arise. Unless the Chancellor makes some such statement as that which the hon. Member for Colchester suggested, I personally am not satisfied with what he has said to-day. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) spoke of a "bogy." The word that was in my mind was "ghost." I thought we had killed that £60,000,000 argument on Second Reading, and if there was anything still left of it to-day it was killed by the speeches made earlier in this Debate. But the Chancellor did seem to show signs of trying to revive the corpse, and I should like to put it back into its coffin and drive in a couple more nails. I am certain that this £60,000,000 is largely a notional loss and has been accurately so described, but even the figure of £60,000,000 is only arrived at by taking the present rate of tax. I suggest to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary that he take counsel with those very close and accurate thinkers in the Treasury, and I believe they will agree that the real loss, if and when it ultimately comes, some time between now and the Day of Judgment, will be determined not by the present rate of tax but by the rate of tax which is in force as each instalment of that remission comes to be remitted. I would add another argument which would tend to extinguish any remaining sense of life in the corpse. In the
    1434
    case of people with large estates, to the extent that they finally had to pay the tax which would now be remitted, the Government would lose a considerable portion of the amount in Death Duty. That is another argument which has not been put forward.
    I did feel there was great force in the suggestion of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Petnick-Lawrence) that the proper argument to bring up against extension to the whole range of Schedule E is not the money argument. That cock will not fight. The argument to bring up is that of the administrative difficulties. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer can show us that the administrative difficulties are, at any rate for the moment, insuperable, we would gladly accept that view. I should like also to support what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan (Mr. Woodburn). He said that if we take the Bill as it is, with the Amendment proposed to extend its provisions to the £600 salary earners, then gradually, over a long period, say 30 or 40 years, we shall all come to be on the pay-as-you-earn basis. I think that is probably true. Let us picture the transition stage over those 30 or 40 years, taking ourselves along about 20 years. When people meet friends in exactly the same circumstances of life, the question they will ask each other will be "Are you a go-as-you-pleaser or a pay-as-you-earner?" It will be a ridiculous and impossible situation, and we had much better clean it up now.
    There is one more reason, and I put it forward with a good deal of diffidence, against making this distinction between weekly wage earners and monthly wage earners. There are some of us, certainly on this side of the Committee, who look forward to the time when a far greater range of workers will be on a monthly rather than a weekly basis. We believe that will add greatly to labour's sense of the dignity of their occupations and their sense of security, and if that should ever come about it will make the distinction made by this Bill even more ridiculous than it is at present.
    Mr. McEntee: Most of the points I had intended to refer to have already been covered, and I do not propose to deal with them at any

    1435
    length. My hon. Friend the Member for the Park Division of Sheffield (Mr. Burden) concluded with a quotation and I should like to open with one. He knew the source of his quotation, but I am not in his happy position. He quoted from Shakespeare. I would quote from someone whom I do not know. It is a quotation that I saw many years ago and one that has inspired me a good deal, and I recommend it particularly to the Chancellor now. It is:
    "Go as far as you can, and then see how much farther you can go."
    On Second Reading the Chancellor said he would go as far as he could and fixed on £600. I ask him, as every speaker today has asked him, to go farther than he thought it was possible for him to go. The Chancellor has said "I would like to go very much farther but there are certain administrative difficulties. I think they can be got over but there is one difficulty that I am not satisfied I can get over, and it is a difficulty that may also be an injustice." He said that if he were to grant the concession which very Member who has spoken has asked for it might lead to the imposition of a burden on other people, as well as those who would be affected by the change, at some time in the future. I think we all sympathise with him in that point. Probably I am as little able to bear additional burdens as any hon. Member, but unless this burden were very considerable I should still say to the Chancellor "We will bear that burden if and when it comes." In the meantime there are people who, as a consequence of the £600 limit, may have to bear a very much more considerable burden.
    I did intend to stress a point already made by the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) concerning men and women when they retire from the public service or local government service or the service of bodies like the Metropolitan Water Board, the Port of London Authority, and the railways. A man may have an income of 700 or £800, or even £1,000, and if he is paying his Income Tax on the income of a year ago he will find himself on his retirement in a difficult position, because he will be presented with a heavy bill for taxation on the past year's earnings. The burden may be so heavy that it imposes hard-
    1436
    ship not only on him but on his family and others. I hope the Chancellor will give every consideration to that point.
    Then there is the position of those who are in the public service to-day. On my own local authority we have just been presented with a list of people in our service stating their salaries and whether they are permanent or temporary employees. A great number of them are temporary employees who came into the service because of some special qualifications they possessed and of the difficulty of getting staff at the present time. They are in comparatively good jobs, for them, earning, perhaps, something over £600 a year. After the war they may find themselves in the same position in which I was not very long after I first came to this House. I had left a permanent job in the municipal service for a not so permanent position in political life, and after three elections in two years I found myself out of work, unable to go back to my previous employment, unable to find work elsewhere and still called upon to pay my Income Tax. After the war there will be a great number of people in a similar position and I hope that the Chancellor, even if he does have to impose some burden on the remainder of the taxpayers, will, if the burden is not so heavy—and I do not think it will be—give consideration to the large numbers of people who will find themselves in the position I have described.
    On the question of anomalies, the Chancellor said that once a man came into this scheme he must remain in it. What will that lead to in a few years' time? A great number of people who are now receiving under £600 a year will have got increases and will be receiving more than £600—some may, by promotions and otherwise, be getting £1,000 or £1,200—and they will still be under the pay-as you-earn system in regard to Income Tax, whereas others who may have come into the service later, because they get over £600 a year, will not be in the scheme at all. That will create a set of anomalies that some future Parliament will have to deal with, and I am afraid they will say we were not very wise in our generation to allow the possibility of such anomalies. I hope, therefore, the Chancellor will do as I said at the beginning: Go as far as you can and then see how much farther you can go.
    Mr. Butcher (Holland with Boston): I think the Committee owe a considerable debt to the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) for his intervention, because I feel the Chancellor's reply made it clear that sooner or later this question will have to be cleared up in order to have a tidy and workable scheme. I do not propose to stress the very large number of arguments to-day, except to urge upon the Financial Secretary that the tidying up of this plan should not be delayed beyond the Report stage of the Bill. We shall be in a difficult position if we draw a line at £600 across Schedule E in October-November of this year for the privilege of removing it in April next year, or moving it a little nearer to the top. This matter must be dealt with as a whole at the present time, because otherwise we shall have three groups: we have two groups at present, those who discharge their tax prior to the time and those after; but should we make two bites at the cherry during the intervening period many cases will arise to worry hon. Members through their post-bags, leading to approaches to the Treasury. While we are conscious of the very generous manner in which the Chancellor has approached this matter—a problem which he has had to take over under such tragic circumstances—I do not think we are unreasonable in saying that the Report stage is quite the latest stage at which he ought to make up his mind.
    Mr. Brooke: I find myself in great sympathy with almost everything that was said by the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson), except when he suggested that the Chancellor might have to explain to us that the administrative difficulties in doing what the Committee unanimously wants were so great as to make it impossible. Far greater administrative difficulties have already been overcome by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the previous Chancellor, the Financial Secretary and their brilliant assistants in the Board of Inland Revenue, in giving us the Bill at all. I do not think it would be right for the Committee to accept a reply on those lines from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With his truly statesmanlike speech I have no quarrel except on the point already referred to by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis). I have here the
    1438
    actual words used by the Chancellor. He said:
    "Discharge of tax liability constitutes their main attraction."
    That is to say, the main attraction of this Amendment. My hon. Friend pointed out that that is not the case. It is not that the Committee want to relieve some section of the population from tax.
    I go beyond what my hon. Friend said in replying. It is not merely that this is a better system that we want to see universally introduced, but that the Committee is insistent that justice shall be done to all taxpayers at the same time. The Chancellor moved to very strong ground when he explained to us, and I think convinced the majority of us, that what is really in his mind is the desire to be sure that he is being fair to everyone, but a great deal of harm has been done by allowing the suggestion to get abroad that other and less sound arguments were weighing with him. In his speech on the Second Reading referring to this discharge of £60,000,000, he said that unquestionably that was money which would in the main be recoverable. The Committee is not going to accept that argument. For hundreds of years we have agreed in this country that capacity to pay is the proper principle of taxation and it will be a sad day when we introduce, as a subsidiary principle, capacity to fail to pay. If we can be sure that any such argument has been removed right away from the mind of the Chancellor, I feel sure that the Committee will be found much more agreeable to whatever might ultimately be proposed.
    I have only one further point to make. In his Second Reading speech the Chancellor said that he regarded the principle of pay-as-you-earn as suitable for general application in the proper time and in the proper way. That gave me and others the impression that we might find the principle extended to new classes of taxpayers in one Finance Bill after another. We might find the majority of people in in 1944, perhaps another set in 1945 and another in 1946. I do not think that would be the right way to do it. We cannot avoid unfairness in that way. We shall not only be perpetuating unfairness but shall be increasing anomalies. I am most willing to give the Chancellor the extra time he asks for to consider the complexities of this subject, provided that we

    1439
    have an assurance from him or from the Financial Secretary that any extension to new classes of taxpayer comes into force as nearly as possible at the same moment as the provisions of the Bill lay down for the classes coming under it as it now stands. I am afraid that if we wait until the next Finance Bill, the Chancellor will say that that is impossible and that the matter must be postponed for a year. That is my main reason for appealing to him to reach a decision between now and the Report stage, so that, although we may have to wait for two or three weeks in uncertainty, the uncertainty will then vanish completely and the new system will be applied as broadly as possible simultaneously.
    Mr. Bowles (Nuneaton): We ought to be perfectly fair in what we are doing and to tell the taxpayers under Schedule E exactly what is to happen. I have the impression that a large number of people, such as those who are writing and petitioning us or seeing us on deputations, think that they are all going to benefit by being included in the extension of the scheme above the £600 limit. It is obvious that everybody who is on an increasing salary will suffer immediately by being included in this scheme. The only people who are particularly concerned about being included are those who are presumably going to drop from a higher salary to a lower pension, or to nothing at all. It is important that the great mass of bank clerks and other black-coated workers who possibly earn more than £600 a year should know that although we are all in favour of this extension it is not necessarily going to be to their immediate benefit.
    I believe in doing things tidily. In talking about the datum line of £600, I would like to inform the Chancellor about two personal friends of mine. One is the managing director of a well-known firm in London. He gets £5,000 a year but he is paid by weekly salary and he is already in the scheme. The other person whose salary is £620 a year, not paid week by week. Both those gentlemen are to retire on 1st April next year. The man getting £5,000 a year is already in the scheme and will therefore be excused all his Income Tax on this year's earnings, whereas the man who will drop from £620 to a pension of £300 or £400 a
    1440
    year will nevertheless find that his taxation for 1943–44 has not been discharged at all. Obviously it is wrong to choose a datum line of so much a year. I am prepared to give the right hon. Gentleman the names of those people, because I am certain that there are many other people similarly affected. Some have been regularly employed for something like 50 years. Others, like actors and actresses, are paid so much per week although their earnings may be quite substantial in the course of the year, and will bear comparison even with the salary of the right hon. Gentleman. The whole thing is completely anomalous and cannot be justified on any basis of uniformity whatsoever.
    When men come to retire, then they are glad or sorry about being in this scheme and about having a reduction in their Income Tax. They are very concerned then whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done justice by them. He is very anxious to do justice all round, and we all welcome that expression of his determination but, by bringing people up to £600 a year into his scheme he has already introduced many more anomalies than he is at present aware. Let no Member of Parliament be responsible when he supports the Amendment, for deceiving the great mass of the people who are on increasing salary schemes. Secondly, try to get away from all anomalies and injustices and to secure uniformity. The only way to do that is to accept the Amendment so ably moved by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers).
    Mr. Spearman (Scarborough and Whitby): I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) expressed the view of many Members of the Committee when he said that he would not be satisfied if all those in receipt of a salary were not included unless the Chancellor gave a more substantial reason than he had done last week. If I understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer aright, his principal reason for not extending the pay-as-you-earn scheme to all Schedule E taxpayers was that he expected a fall in wages and in the national income generally in postwar years. At present we are putting up as cheerfully as we can with very heavy taxation because we realise that it is a very effective weapon in cutting down the demand for things to the supply avail-

    1441
    able at a time when, if the supply were increased, it would interfere with, the war effort. After the war there will be a huge demand for goods, and millions of now serving men will be only too anxious to get to work to earn wages in fulfilling that demand. It therefore seems a defeatist view to take that there will necessarily be a huge fall in the national income; later when there will be an adequate supply of goods for the demand it surely will not be quite so urgently necessary to raise all that is possible for taxation in any one particular year. I suggest that the possibility of a fall in national income after the war is not so certain as to afford a satisfactory reason for missing an improvement in the machinery of administration that is so generally desired by the Committee.
    Mr. Benson (Chesterfield): This discussion has clarified quite a number of points on which we were rather muddled when we first approached the matter. In the very lucid speech which he made, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done away with the fear which was in the minds of some Members of the Committee that the Amendment would throw serious burdens upon the Exchequer. He himself has admitted that that burden will be entirely negligible. What then was the basis of the Chancellor's argument against the Amendment? It was that he was afraid that in certain circumstances it might be possible that in the distant future our Amendment might be unfair to the other Schedules. He said in substance that he was in agreement, but may I suggest to him with the very greatest respect that if he is in agreement with us in substance, his objections were of an extraordinarily nebulous character, and if we come to examine them and see what they really do mean, we shall find that the unfairness to the other Schedules is almost as notional as the loss to the Exchequer. If the Amendment throws a burden upon the other Schedules, admittedly there is an element of unfairness. Under what circumstances could it be that if pay-as-you-earn is applied to all Schedule E an additional burden will be thrown on Schedule A, B, C or D. Theoretically there are three circumstances, a fall in wages, a fall in salaries or a reduction in the rate of tax.
    Let us take the question of a fall in wages. Whether the total wage bill of the country will fall or not after the war I
    1442
    do not know, but one thing is quite certain, that the very large wages being earned at the present time will come to an end, and the Chancellor himself has said that he was forgiving in that respect something like £250,000,000. I would point out that that loss and that burden if it ever be a burden to be thrown on the other Schedules, is due to the Bill itself and not to the Amendment. The major possibility of unfairness has already been committed by the Chancellor. He has swallowed the camel to the extent of £250,000,000 and is now straining at a gnat of a maximum amount of £50,000,000 in theory but which in practice may be negligible.
    Now let us take the other instances, a fall in salaries or a fall in the rate of tax. Again here there is a theoretical loss, and very largely a theoretical burden to be placed upon the other Schedules. But what probability is there of a fall in salaries? The Chancellor suggested that we were at a peak point in salaries. That is perfectly true. Never have salaries been higher in the past than now, but that applies to any year in the last 50 years. The secular tendency of salaries is continuously upward. Take the amount of salaries paid in 1938. It was considerably higher than salaries in 1928, and salaries in 1928 were very considerably higher than salaries in 1918, and the probability is that the tendency for salaries to increase which has been steady for the last century will continue, and that increasing salaries by virtue of the fact that they are taxed one year in advance, so far from throwing a burden on the other Schedules, will theoretically lighten them, so that on that score there is no danger whatever of inequity. The one real possibility of inequity arising is the fall in the rate of tax. The Chancellor has now amended his estimate of the amount of forgiveness to £50,000,000. Our tax at the present standard rate is 10s. It is quite true that the Exchequer will lose £5,000,000 in any one year where the rate of tax is reduced by 1s.; that is inescapable and is the only loss which the Exchequer will really suffer. I suggest that for every 1s. reduction in tax the spreading of a burden of £5,000,000 over the whole of the rest of the taxpayers is a burden so small that no taxpayer could possibly calculate his share of it. To suggest that that is an unfairness and an inequity to which this

    1443
    Committee should have serious regard is, I think, merely splitting hairs and making a logical case out of pure imagination.
    Sir A. Beit: Could the hon. Gentleman explain where he gets the figure of £5,000,000?
    Mr. Benson: The total loss at the 10s. rate is £50,000,000; therefore it is £5,000,000 to the Is. The very maximum reduction the Committee can hope to look forward to for many years is a reduction to 7s. 6d. Nobody will be optimistic enough to suggest that we are going rapidly to reach less than that. The very maximum burden that this could throw on the whole body of taxpayers is £12,500,000, and against that there are two things to set, first the secular tendency for salaries to increase, and the fact that every individual salary tends to increase and thereby benefits the Exchequer. The real danger is that Schedules which are left out will complain not so much about the burden which is thrown upon them, but that they are left out and that they are not getting the advantage of the pay-as-you-go scheme. If it is possible to bring the other Schedules in, there is no reason why sooner or later it should not be done. Frankly, I cannot conceive any circumstances under which you could bring the vast mass of Schedule D in, but I was very sceptical that you could bring Schedule E in last year. However, it has been done by a very brilliant scheme indeed, a scheme for which we owe the Board of Inland Revenue very great thanks. Let us not forget that the Board of Inland Revenue have done something which the American Exchequer have failed to do, and they have done something which I think the majority of people did not realise could be done so wonderfully effectively. In view of what they have done, I do not feel too sure in saying that we cannot bring Schedule D in, but it will be much more difficult than in the case of Schedule E.
    The real grumble, if there is any, will be that Schedule D and other taxpayers have not been brought in, Not any question of any theoretical burdens cast upon them. Anybody who takes up the argument that we must not extend this to the small residue of Schedule E because we cannot give it to Schedules A, B, C and D is taking up a line which when I was a
    1444
    small boy and I took up a similar line resulted in my being told, "Don't be a dog in the manger." If this extension does not prejudice the other Schedules, if it costs nothing but a mere theoretical burden upon them, they cannot grumble about its being extended unless they take up the line of the dog in the manger. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has frequently been called the watchdog of our finance. It will be horrible for him to be called the watchdog in the manger of our finance. To suggest that because some people are not getting a concession which cannot be applied to them therefore it should not be applied to people to whom it could be applied, is not a question of fairness, but of envy. When one analyses the Chancellor's case into actual figures and facts, it really disappears into mist. I hope that he will realise the strong feeling there is in the Committee. I am not asking him to commit himself to-day, for he said he could not do it without further thought. There is time for further thought between now and the Report stage. If necessary, we do not need to pass this Bill for a considerable time. Let him delay the Report stage until he has made up his mind. If he wants to take a month, let him do so. I ask him not to commit himself. Let him realise the strong feeling there is in the Committee, and let him take time to see how he can meet the demand.
    Mr. Graham White: Unless I very much mistake the situation in this discussion, the Committee is in a very fortunate position which very seldom arises, namely, that on the question of equity and justice there is complete agreement in every quarter. The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Summers) in his opening speech quoted words of the Chancellor which showed exactly where he stood, so that when the whole House is agreed, under the leadership of the Chancellor, on the equity of the proposal and the desirability of it, there must be very strong reasons advanced why it should not be done at the very earliest possible moment. We can therefore assume, if that is so, that it is the intention of the Chancellor, in view of the equity, to bring it into operation in the appropriate way at the appropriate time. I am bound to say that I am not terribly impressed by the arguments adduced so far as a case for immediate action. I am a little

    1445
    surprised that the Chancellor to-day did not dwell more on the difficulties of introducing this new scheme smoothly and without friction, because I am impressed by the importance of that and also by some of the difficulties.
    It may be I am unduly impressed through having read at the time and having re-read the White Paper which had as one of its objects to explain how difficult it was, if not impossible, to carry out the scheme we are now engaged in putting forward. I would have been very much impressed if the Chancellor had said, "You know my views as to the equity of this proposal and as to the desirability of it, but I must ask for time in order that we may carry through the actual machinery for the administration and for the inquiry and testing, through the courts it may be, as to the liability and the place of the taxpayer in this scheme." I should have had nothing more to say, but that argument has not been brought to us to-day. It may be that the Financial Secretary when he speaks may develop an argument of that kind which would receive very careful attention from me at all events.
    I do not intend to raise any special point by way of emphasising the difficulties which will arise when it comes to administering this scheme, but I will indicate this kind of case. What is to be the definition, for example, of full employment? I have had before me the case of a woman who had worked for five hours a day for five days in the week. She has been ruled by the courts to be only part-time employed, but if she had been employed for six days a week for six months, she would have been full-time employed. When you see matters of that kind open to doubt and different interpretation just on that one particular point, one realises that the question of classification may involve an even greater task and difficulty in the administrative application of the scheme than we now know of. That is an aspect to which I attach very great importance. I have listened with care to the speeches which have been made about the advantage to the Exchequer arising from this proposal and possible extensions of it, and I am not very much impressed by those arguments, because at all stages the Government will be in control of the situation, whatever it is, and can make such adjust
    1446
    ments as are necessary. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in agreement with all quarters of the House, and I believe with the sentiment in the country, will tell us exactly what is in his mind as to the difficulties of administration. We do not want in war-time any additional difficulties in regand to the shifting of pay-days or anything else. Will the Chancellor tell us what is in his mind also as to the steps by which this proposal is to be brought about?
    Mr. Collindridge (Barnsley): Representing a heavy industrial area, I do not think there are many people in my division who will be affected by this Amendment. I have made contributions in this House, however, in favour of the general principle of this Bill, and I have found at recent meetings in my division that nothing has given greater satisfaction than the proposal that taxation should be paid as the money is earned. Indeed, several constituents and the Press recently have paid tribute to the decent manner in which the Government are dealing with the situation so far as ordinary working people are concerned. This prompts me to support those who suggest that this scheme should be applied to others as well. In Yorkshire we have a saying: "Get hold while they have it," that is why I want as many people as possible brought within the scheme of pay-as-you earn. If the scheme is desirable for the manual workers it is desirable for those who, although salaried, might not be much better off than other people who are not salaried. We should look at this matter in a big way.
    There are two stages of life at which people feel that the payment of taxation is wrong. I know that the payment of taxation is not strikingly popular with anybody, but it seems particularly harsh when a person has a deferred tax payment to meet at retirement. You may say that, because he has missed paying that taxation earlier, he should pay it then; but having mentioned one Yorkshire expression, I will mention another: "Eaten bread is soon forgot." At the retirement stage of life the payment of taxation ought not to be a burden. Also, when a man dies, leaving a widow and children, the payment of taxation ought not to be a heavy imposition, as often it is. There is a class of people in my division to whom I pay tribute for the work they have done

    1447
    —local government officials, civil servants and others. Their standards have not improved much, and they have had many additional duties put upon them. They should derive some benefit from this scheme; this is why I support their being in. Some of my hon. Friends have made use of quotations on this subject, and I will conclude with one. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he will consider this proposal. I am sure that at no distant date he, or someone on his behalf, will come here and say that the proposal has been agreed to. I would then say to him:
    "If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well It were done quickly."
    Mr. E. P. Smith (Ashford): I want to put a question about the payment of Income Tax by weekly wage-earners under Schedule D. I have particularly in mind the entertainment industry. The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) mentioned that industry, but unfortunately he did not pursue it as much as I thought he might have done; and that has led me to intervene. Ninety-five per cent. of the members of the entertainment industry, whether they are artists or technicians, whether they are in receipt of £6 a week or £600 a week, are weekly wage earners under this Bill. That is made abundantly clear by the phraseology in Clause r, Sub-section (2) (b), and also I have been assured by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, to whom I put a question on the point, that they are weekly wage earners under the Bill. Nevertheless, generally speaking, they pay tax under Schedule D. I would be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would define the position of such weekly wage-earners in regard to this Bill. The entertainment industry affords an illustration of a bridge which might be built between the taxpayers under Schedule D and those under Schedule E, so that one day all Income Tax might be collected on the pay-as-you-earn basis.
    Mr. Tinker (Leigh): I feel sure that the Chancellor of the Exchequer desires to satisfy the public generally on this matter. I heard him last Thursday, and I thought he made a very good speech. This weekend I met several deputations who wanted to know why this Bill should not apply to everybody, and I had no effective answer
    1448
    to give them. If this is a good system for the weekly wage-earners it ought to be a good system for everybody else. My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles) and the hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. E. P. Smith) have just spoken about highly-paid people who are weekly wage earners. The hon. Member for Nuneaton spoke of a £5,000 a year man being on a weekly wage basis and getting all the benefits of this proposal, and the hon. Member for Ashford said that the star artists in the entertainment industry are on a weekly wage basis. How can we argue, then, against everybody coming on the same basis? I never like swinging with the crowd, especially when the crowd is on the other side of the House, as Members on that side are usually against our ideas on taxation. I have sat here a long time, almost afraid to speak in case I was supporting the wrong policy, but it is clear that the principle is right. I look forward to seeing my demands for the old age pensioner being supported in the same way from the other side. I believe in the case which has been put to-day, and I hope that the Chancellor will agree with us.
    Mr. Levy (Elland): I rise because this is said to be a Legislative Assembly, and legislation is supposed to reflect the will of the House of Commons as a whole. I do not remember such unanimity on any other point of substance during the years in which I have had the honour to be a Member of the House of Commons. Since the present discrimination creates a large number of anomalies which ought not to be created, I think that the Chancellor, if I may say so with great respect and humility, should bow to the unanimous desire of the House of Commons in respect of this proposal. Although there may be some difficulties about machinery —and I appreciate the Exchequer will lose considerably in the turnover—we still say, with unanimity, that in equity this ought to be conceded.
    Mr. Arthur Jenkins (Pontypool): I would like to put one or two questions to the Chancellor. I am not sure what is going to be the final effect in loss or gain to the Treasury of such a proposal as this, and I would like to get the Chancellor's view about that. We ought to look further than one year ahead on such a question of taxation. It seems to me that, in the

    1449
    final analysis, there must be a great disparity in the benefit that will be derived by the citizens of the State. Assume that one person has an average income of £5,000 a year throughout his adult life, and another has an average income of a week throughout his adult life. Both have been subject to taxation on the present system. Now we change to the pay-as-you-go system. What is the final effect of that on each of those men or on his dependants if he should retire? It seems to me that the advantage derived by the £5,000 a year man will be substantially greater than that derived by the £5 a week man. The amount of gain that will be effected by the £5,000 a year family will be considerable—more than £2,000. To the £5 a week man, less than £50. We ought in changing to a system of taxation to have some regard to the advantages that the taxpayers will enjoy. It looks to me—I may be wrong, and I would like the Chancellor's view—that if you treat this as a gift to each family arising out of the proposed system of taxation, the highly paid people will get an enormous advantage compared with the lower-paid people.
    Originally we intended that this system should be introduced for the purpose of meeting the difficulties of lower-paid men. There is a case for salaried people and people up to £600 a year and perhaps somewhat higher. The Chancellor made some substantial advance in that respect and we are obliged to him for it. But I think he might have gone up to £750 or £800 which would have met most cases and particularly families with liabilities of children at school and so on. There is no need to worry about people above that total. They are able to meet their liabilities on behalf of their families. To be fair we should look at it from the beginning of a life to the end of that life and see what the advantages would be. If you look at it in that way, I think it must be seen that the saving to highly paid people will be very high indeed. If the contention that the State would lose nothing at all is incorrect, then more taxation will have to be collected from the taxpayers, and people on the lower level might have to contribute something towards making up that which has been lost, but even though there would be no loss to the State, there is no justification for making the benefits from the new system so unequal in their incidence.
    Sir J. Anderson: I think that the Committee is, by all the ordinary signs, now in a position in which this matter can be disposed of at any rate for to-day. We have had a very full and interesting Debate, and, speaking personally, I am not at all sorry to find in all sections of the House the feeling very generally shared against drawing arbitrary lines and making distinctions according to whether a person is a little richer or a little poorer. There is at the same time no doubt at all that taxpayers are inclined to look very closely at the treatment meted out to other taxpayers, and a feeling of injustice, which is bad from every point of view, can very easily be engendered if hasty action is taken without carefully considering all the possible implications. I have no doubt at all that as a result of having gone so far as I have gone already in the extension of this scheme, with the accompaniment of a discharge of tax, I am going to provide arguments which can be used against the Treasury by people who feel they have been harshly dealt with in the past. I have no doubt about that. I have no doubt that it would be necessary for good and sufficient reasons to resist such pleas. These transactions have to remain closed, but one ought not too readily to do something which is going to create an unnecessary or an increased sense of injustice.
    However that may be, I cannot possibly refuse to consider the plea that has been put in very moderate language by various speakers that I should at any rate reserve a final judgment on this matter. When I say "on this matter" I mean on this narrow question of whether something more should be done now in this Bill, because I have made my position clear with regard to the general problem. A lot of the points made in the Debate about anomalies and difficulties really do not concern what we are doing now immediately in this Bill, but they concern the long-term problem. I cannot resist the plea that I should not at this stage finally commit myself, and I gladly undertake, if the Amendments which are concerned with the question of the scope of this Bill are for the moment dropped, to return to the matter without commitment on either side—certainly without commitment on my side; that must be understood— on the Report stage, and I hope that with that assurance my hon. Friends in various parts of the Committee—they are friends,

    1451
    not only in the technical but also in the natural sense of the term—will be content not to press their Amendment. That is really all I need say on this matter at the present time, and I hope that we can dispose of it.
    Mr. Gallacher: There have been references made to people who support this system, and I think it is necessary to say that the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood), who has pioneered this campaign, and the shop stewards and workers in the factories, who have supported him from the beginning in putting forward the proposition that led to this Bill, are in favour of its being extended to these other sections. That much should be said, because it has not been brought out. Everybody knows of the traditional generosity of the Scot, and I ask the Chancellor not to let his country down.
    Mr. Summers: I think it will be a very long day before any Amendment which I may have the privilege of moving in the future is found to carry such support in so many quarters as has been the case today. It was unexpected, to say the least of it. I am sure that the Chancellor will agree that in considering this question there has been no feeling to organise in all quarters of the House an attack on the Government as such. It has been purely one on the merits of a particular aspect of a particular scheme. If I understood the Chancellor aright in his last remarks—and I refer to them purely for the sake of clarity—he said that he was prepared to defer his final opinion on this question of scope until the Report stage and to make it clear that that was so, he would be willing for the Amendments dealing with the scope of the scheme to be dropped for the time being. That, of course, applies to all the Amendments concerned, and I am sure that I shall be voicing the opinion of all Members who have spoken in saying that we appreciate the way in which the Chancellor has recognised the universal demand. He must, I feel sure, realise that it is from all quarters and carries great conviction and force, and I hope he will not lose sight of that when he comes to apply his mind to these questions.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Before the hon. Gentleman asks for leave to withdraw the Amendment, after which no speech can
    1452
    be made, I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question. I take it for granted, if it should prove necessary in order to re-raise the question, that when the Bill comes to the Report stage the Bill will be recommitted and that the Chancellor will certainly take no exception to that course?
    Sir J. Anderson: I shall certainly not take any exception to that course. I think it will be necessary to move that the Bill be recommitted, because we intend to alter the Title anyhow.
    Mr. Summers: In view of the undertaking given by my right hon. Friend, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Douglas: There is a small point which I would like the Chancellor of Exchequer to look at with a view to clarification. It arises in Subsection (2, b), where it says:
    "emoluments … calculated by reference to the hour, day, week or any period less than a month (at whatever intervals the wages or other emoluments are paid)."
    That phraseology is not at all clear, as it does not make it definite whether the calculation referred to is for the determination of the rate at which the person is paid or the determination of the instalment by which the person is paid. The amount might be on the basis of yearly remuneration paid by weekly, monthly or other instalments, and it is possible for a person to have his remuneration calculated by reference to weekly rates and to be paid by instalments at longer intervals. What is here stated in the Bill seems to be ambiguous and I ask the hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury to look at it, and if necessary, clarify it on the Report stage.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    CLAUSE 2.—(Regulations of Commissioners of Inland Revenue.)
    Mr. Douglas: I beg to move, in page 2, line 44, after "tables" to insert" or rules."
    There appears to run through the White Paper and through the Bill a touching faith in the efficacy of tables.

    1453
    The tables which are proposed show an extraordinary degree of complication, and I want the opportunity to be given for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in bringing in his scheme and the regulations which will be needed to give effect to it, to do it by the alternative method of rules instead of by tables, and by rules which people will be able to understand. I will take a simple illustration from these tables to show the anomalies that arise from them. In the example A the workman in the third week of the period earns £4 18s. and suffers a deduction of 17s. in tax, and in the 38th week of the period he earns precisely the same amount and suffers a deduction of 21s.
    There are other illustrations of a similar nature, but I would like to draw attention to something which the average workman will find the greatest difficulty in understanding. If Members will look at the sequence of weeks in example A, beginning No. 35, they will note that a workman who receives £4 19s. in wages suffers a deduction of £1 in that week. The next week his wages are £5 3s. 6d. but the tax goes down to 18s. The following week his wages go down to £5 13s. 6d. but the tax, curiously enough, goes back to £1. The week after his wages go down still further to £4 18s., the tax takes another step upwards, to £1 1s. In the week afterwards his wages go up to £5 13s., but the tax takes a step downwards to £1. I do not want to elaborate the argument as I want to have a chance later of saying something about the basis of the scheme in general. I merely want by this Amendment to leave the way open for the Chancellor to deal with the matter in another way by means of rules which people can understand instead of by means of tables which appear to be so contradictory.
    Mr. Bowles: I would like to raise two points on this Amendment, about which I gave the Financial Secretary notice earlier to-day. In the tables referred to by my hon. Friend a few moments ago we always visualised 52 weeks to the year. In the first financial year, when this Measure is enforced and assuming that the pay day is Thursday, there are 53 pay days, and I was wondering what explanation could be given of that because obviously it makes the tables seem much more difficult than they ordinarily would have been if every year had exactly 52
    1454
    pay days. Of course, in a leap year there will be two pay days in the week which will be repeated 53 times in the year. I would like to ask whether copies of the tax tables referred to in Paragraph 14, page 5, of the White Paper will be made accessible to wage-earners? Can we be told in what way this will be done? For instance, is it proposed that copies shall be made available at Inland Revenue offices, post offices, public libraries, etc.? What happens in the case of a man who lives in remote parts and who wishes to check his deductions week by week? No doubt the Financial Secretary will be able to give us some explanation, because these are practical questions which actually touch the working of this scheme.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Assheton: My hon. Friend the Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas) raised a point which has been noticed by more than one Member of the Committee, and I am not sure whether he heard my reply which I gave when the Second Reading of the Bill took place last week. I said then that the matter was under consideration by the Board of Inland Revenue and that the Board were confident that the range of deviations could be reduced to small proportions by modifications of these tables. It has not been possible up to now to provide the modifications which it is proposed to make, but I hope that my hon. Friend will feel satisfied with that assurance.
    On the points which were raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Bowles), I would like to tell him that I am grateful to him for having given me notice of them earlier in the day. Although I am not able at the moment to give him a complete answer, it is not because there is no satisfactory answer but because the matter is very complicated. I shall try to explain his first point at a later date. On the question of tax tables, they will be made available to members of the public in various places. We are anxious that they should be made available in public libraries for instance; they will, I hope, be available in the offices of employers where a considerable number of people are employed and also in the offices of Inspectors of Taxes. Any further suggestions which my hon. Friend has to make in that particular connection will be carefully attended to, because we want the public to have every oppor-

    1455
    tunity of referring to these tables should occasion arise for them to do so. I think I can assure my hon. Friend that that, in fact, will be done.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. Douglas: I beg to move, in page 3, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    "() for the repayment of the whole or of any specified part of tax previously deducted."
    It is clearly contemplated in the scheme, and examples given in the White Paper show it, that automatic repayments may be made by an employer in certain cases when wages fall or when they temporarily cease, but I am not clear whether actual provision is made in the text of the Bill to give effect to this, and for that reason I have put down this Amendment.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): It is the Chancellor's intention that sums should be repaid if as a result of what has happened in previous weeks you reach a state of affairs in which a man is entitled, as he may be, to repayment. If there are very high payments in the first part of the year, you may get that result if there are lower payments in the later part of the year. I do not think it is appropriate or necessary to put these express words in the Bill. Although I had not myself quite appreciated what was in my hon. Friend's mind in putting down this Amendment, I will undertake to have the point looked into, because, as I have just said, it is my right hon. Friend's intention that this should be done. Indeed, there is administrative machinery for doing it.
    Mr. Bowles: May I ask two questions? First, will the Inland Revenue Board be supplying tables showing the net tax being deducted? Secondly, in Paragraph 2, Page 7, of the White Paper the procedure is outlined for new employees. It states that the employer will be required to deduct provisionally on the basis of an employee being a single person entitled only to the single person allowance of £80. Will the employer be expected to find the appropriate code number to cover the single man's allowance each year? The position is this: It is true that certain people are able to deduct £80 or make that allowance, but, on the other hand, a great number of people who will operate the scheme will be people who are in the habit of referring to code numbers and
    1456
    not to £80 per annum. Would not the Government consider the suggestion that instead of paying £80 per annum as a personal allowance the man may be given a code number—I think it is No. 11 which goes from £76 to£80—so that it will be much more easy for people who are relatively unskilled in this matter to work out what allowance should be made when deducting tax? Under the present weekly wage Income Tax law the late Chancellor of the Exchequer laid down minima below which either a single or a married man with children should not be allowed to fall. I am not quite sure whether these minima are proposed to be retained, but it seems to me that in a case of this kind where a new employee comes in he will no doubt suffer the maximum tax deduction possible. Although the Inland Revenue Board will get on with the job of finding which code he should come in under, nevertheless, a man with a wife and, say, half a dozen children may find that in the first few weeks, while the local inspector is working out what particular allowance and code number he should come in under, almost all of his weekly wage deducted in the form of Income Tax.
    Mr. MacLaren (Burslem): His wife may have another baby in the meantime.
    Mr. Bowles: I am not so worried about that as my hon. Friend. The old principle was to give minima below which persons' weekly incomes should not fall, and that should obtain now unless there is a good argument against it.
    Mr. Assheton: I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's point, which I will look into further, but I have been assured by the Board that this matter, among others, will be covered by the Regulations which are to be made. It is clear that a good many of these points are detailed matters which can only be properly understood by the House when the Regulations are available. Nevertheless, I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for having raised them.
    Mr. Woodburn:I would like to raise a point on this. Would it be possible, on the tax cards for the convenience of pay clerks to have two columns—refunds in one and payments in another? That would be a convenience in checking and would be much better than having to use different inks.
    Mr. Assheton: I will certainly consider that.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    The Chairman: The remaining Amendments to this Clause in the name of the hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas) are, I think, consequential.
    Mr. Douglas: With all respect, Major Milner, my Amendment with regard to paragraph B, Sub-section 2, is on an entirely different matter. It goes to the whole structure of the scheme of deduction which will be determined by this paragraph, and I would like to have an opportunity of discussing it.
    The Chairman: Very well.
    Mr. Douglas: I beg to move, in page 3, line 29, to leave out paragraph (b), and to insert:
    "(b) the amount deducted or repaid at each period of payment of emoluments shall be related to the amount of such payment and to a proportional part of a provisional adjustment for allowances and reliefs."
    This paragraph determines the whole form of the scheme of collection as outlined in the White Paper, and, if it remains, the framework of the Regulations will have to be determined by it, and it does not appear to me that there will be an opportunity to do what the Financial Secretary promised a few moments ago, that he would undertake to consider whether the system of tables should be simplified so as to remove the anomalies that exist in them. I am not concerned as to whether anything is substituted for the paragraph or not, although I have suggested a form of words which might be inserted in place of it. What I am concerned about is to remove the paragraph as it stands in order to leave open the precise form of the Regulations and the mechanism by which this system, on which we are all agreed in general principle, is to be carried out. I suggest that the White Paper plan is based upon a misconception of what is the real issue. The demand for the pay-as-you-go system of assessment and collection is not a deman for precision to the extent that the White Paper plan contemplates. It is a demand to save people from being subjected to the payment of taxation based upon higher earnings during a period when their earnings have fallen. There has been no complaint about paying a
    1458
    little more than the amount ultimately found to be due if that payment is made during the period when the wages are relatively high, because the adjustment, which is made by way of a refund afterwards, comes into a period of lower wages and is a positive advantage to the workmen.
    The White Paper appears to be based upon the view that it is wholly objectionable to pay a little more when wages are high, and therefore it aims at a standard of theoretical perfection in adjusting the payment of tax week by week according to the cumulative amount of earnings up to the end of that week. That is the basis of the scheme contained in the White Paper, and paragraph (b) is a direction to put it into operation. I want to point out some of the practical consequences which will arise. In my constituency there is a firm which employs 4,000 work-people, which is very well organised and which has a highly efficient system of dealing with its pay and other problems, and they estimate that, in order to deal with these calculations and deductions, the labour of 20 clerks for one day will be required. If you multiply that to the extent of 16,000,000 workpeople, it means the labour of 80,000 clerks for one day. I do not know how the Financial Secretary is going to persuade the Minister of Labour to provide that labour, or where the Minister is going to find it. More than that, as things are, it means that that labour cannot be spread over the whole week, because all these operations and calculations have to be done in a very short space of time after all the other calculations with regard to rates of remuneration, overtime and so on have been performed. So the defect of the White Paper scheme arises out of the attempt to get too close to perfection at one blow. I pointed out earlier that it does not convey to the average person a feeling of justice and equity which it is really intended to achieve, for the simple reason that the contribution of tax in many cases goes up in a week in which wages are actually reduced, so the workman is left with a larger deduction from his lower rate of wages. Therefore I suggest that another method should be adopted which will avoid those anomalies and difficulties.
    May I also point out that the scheme has to be worked by means of a system of tax deduction cards upon which the

    1459
    employers have to make every week, in respect of every worker, a series of five entries? One of those is the date, and it does not matter if someone makes a mistake about that, but the others are entries of sums of money. From the employer's own books and records he has to transfer to the card, first the amount of the week's wages. Then there has to be added the previous total of wages to get the cumulative total. Then there has to be a reference to the table of the particular code and week in order to ascertain the cumulative amount of cash to date. In that reference to the tables particularly there is abundant possibility of error, because the tables are constructed in such a complicated fashion. I understand that there are about 5,000 pages of them. More than that, they are arranged upon a system that is calculated to lead to error. It is as if a mathematician was provided with a table of anti-logarithms in order to ascertain the logarithms. They are arranged so that he can run his finger down the side and see the amount of tax payable, which makes it easy to refer back from the tax to find what the wages are but not so easy to find from the wages what the tax is. Although the tables are absolutely correct, they are not adapted for quick use and quick reference.
    After the cumulative tax has been ascertained from the figures, the cumulative amount for the previous week has to be deducted from it in order to find the amount for the week in question. Then that has to be transferred back to the employer's books and deducted from the amount of wages due to the employee in order to ascertain the net amount due. The whole of these processes are outside the book-keeping system. Everyone is liable to an error. Some are liable to cumulative errors, which will add up during the whole of the 52 weeks. It involves a great deal of labour and waste of time and paper. More than that, it is extremely difficult for the workman to check the proper amount of deduction from his pay unless he is very familiar with the use of these papers. He has to know what the cumulative total of his wages up to date is. He has to know what the cumulative total for the previous week was in order that he can extract the amount of the cumulative totals of tax and subtract one from the other in order to check whether
    1460
    he has had a proper deduction from his wages or not.
    May I say a word about an alternative which I have suggested to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which has been devised by my constituents, who have brought to my attention difficulties of a practical character which would arise in operating the White Paper system? The alternative requires that the employer shall be notified, not of a code number but of a weekly figure of deduction on account of reliefs and allowances, and the employer will make that deduction from the wages each week. It is a uniform figure which is fixed once for all until there is a change in reliefs and allowances. It is as fixed as the code, as it arises from precisely the same group of facts, but is expressed in a different fashion. The employer can put this figure at the top of his wages book or card, or the record by which he carries out the ordinary operations of accountancy. The wages clerk has simply to deduct it from the week's wage, and the difference represents the taxable sum of money, and, in order to ascertain the amount of tax payable far the week, the wages clerk has to look at the calculating table or ready reckoner, which can be comprised on a single sheet of paper, to cover every range of income that is likely to be of any importance, and from that the amount of the tax deducted can be ascertained and placed directly upon whatever record or sheet is used in the normal operation of business and the whole computation of facts has been achieved. It is true that it is not so theoretically precise, but will require some slight adjustment, but, even if it is adjusted every quarter, the employer can have a tax table comprised upon a single sheet of paper from which to calculate the quarterly adjustment in a few moments, and save the enormous amount of labour involved in the White Paper scheme. The time of the Inspectors of Taxes and Inland Revenue officials can be saved because all that they will require is a notification from the employer of what the total wage is for six months or a year and what the total of the tax deducted has been. They will not have to be bothered with this tax deduction card, with its 52 entries, or any attempt to check the entries or see whether they can be reconciled or not.
    The only objection to the scheme, if it is an objection, is that in a few cases where

    1461
    the wage varies over the borderline between no tax and the lowest rate of tax, or between the 6s. 6d. and the vas. rate, there will be a little over-deduction in weeks in which the wages are highest, but that is a form of deduction which the workman will not mind because he will get his money back at the time when he will need it most and the over-deduction will be very small. It is a great advantage to the workman, because he has to be notified in any case of what the relief and allowances are and what the code is under the White Paper scheme. He can be notified that the weekly amount of deduction is so and so and he can be given the details—the employer need not know how it is arrived at—and he can be presented with a copy of the calculation table so that he can tell at a glance how much the deduction ought to be. I commend this in all seriousness to the careful consideration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary because of its simplicity and the saving of labour, which is vitally essential at the moment and indeed is desirable at any time because either in peace or war it is shocking to think of labour being wasted. I believe also it would create more general satisfaction and contentment. Those are the grounds upon which I move the Amendment.
    Major Woolley (Spen Valley): It may be that the Financial Secretary will resist this Amendment, but if he does I trust he will give an undertaking that the matter shall be discussed before there is any finality. In the Debate on Second Reading he was good enough to say that he would discuss an alternative scheme which I mentioned in my speech on that occasion, and I hope he will undertake that there shall be no finality reached on the question of these tables before certain other discussions have taken place. The hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas) has spoken of simplicity, and in my opinion simplicity is the first thing we require. We want the matter so simple that it shall be understood by the wage-earners. On page 16 of the White Paper we see the possibility of considerable confusion arising in the minds of wage-earners. In that table we see that for three weeks the wage-earners has earned the same wage each week. In the second week in the table he earns £9 10s. and pays £1 9s. In tax. In the tenth week
    1462
    he earns £9 10s. and pays £2 2s. in tax. In the 13th week he earns £9 10s. and pays £1 14s. in tax. There are three different tax payments for the same amount of wages. That is bound to leave the wage earner wondering how on earth the tables were drawn up.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will he not wonder equally in the week when he earns £3 18s. and gets £2 12s. back?
    Major Woolley: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. The whole thing will cause confusion in the mind of the wage-earner.
    Mr. Woodburn: Do not believe it.
    Major Woolley: If the wage-earner wants to check the tax deductions, what has he to do? The hon. Member for North Battersea gave some explanation, but did not go far enough, because it is more complicated than he suggested. Let us say that in the tenth week the man wants to check the amount of tax deduction. First he has to add together the wages for the ten weeks and divide the total by ten in order to get the average weekly wage, then multiply that figure by 52 in order to arrive at the annual wage. He then deducts from that figure the allowances—
    Mr. MacLaren: And commits suicide.
    Major Woolley: He deducts the allowances, he looks at his table, he calculates his tax, he divides that tax by 52 in order to get the average weekly tax, multiplies it by ten and deducts from that figure the amount already paid in tax, and then he has the answer how much has to be deducted for tax that week. I suggest seriously that simplicity is not one of the virtues of this scheme. From the employers' point of view there arises the question of the availability of clerical labour to do this work. I have calculated that it will need between 7,000 and 10,000 additional pay clerks to work the Treasury scheme, and again I ask the Financial Secretary where are those men to come from?
    Mr. MacLaren: Use the German prisoners.
    Major Woolley: The hon. Member for North Battersea suggested that the work would occupy 80,000 clerk-hours, and that is not very much different from the

    1463
    figure I have arrived at. For these reasons I hope the Financial Secretary will give an undertaking that the tables set out in the White Paper will be subjected to careful reconsideration, and that he will not close his mind to the possibility of having alternative tables. As to the paper that will be required, I estimate that the Treasury tables will require a code or calculator of approximately 1,000 pages, which will have to be referred to, and extracts from it must be available both for employers and employees. The whole scheme is complicated and if it can be simplified I submit that it should be.
    Mr. John Wilmot (Kennington): I hope that in considering the details of how the scheme is to be applied the Committee will not overlook the fact that the pay-as-you-earn system will be a very great boon to manual workers, and if there are complications they are the price which we have to pay for this excellent reform in our Income Tax system. If it is possible to devise a more simple form, even at the expense of the loss of some mathematical accuracy from week to week, every consideration ought to be given to any such alternative. I have myself examined the scheme referred to by my lion. Friend the Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas), which I understand has been passed on to the Financial Secretary, and I should like to add a word in favour of that particular method receiving earnest consideration. It is essential if the scheme is to work properly that the workman, who is the taxpayer, shall be satisfied from week to week that the amount which his employer has deducted is the amount which he is properly called upon to pay.
    Mr. Bowles: May I refer to a case in which the employer does not deduct the tax at all, the employee deducting his own tax? A large number of people are employed in collecting various sums of money. For doing this they get a commission, and they deduct from the amount collected the commission to which they are entitled and pay the balance into the local bank. Now this employee or commercial traveller or whatever he is called will have a further duty placed upon him. After he has collected the money he will have to say to himself, "On this my commission amounts to so much," and then he will have to add to the amount
    1464
    he pays into the bank the amount of his Income Tax. I ask the Financial Secretary to give some consideration to the large number of men and women who will be in that position, because they will from time to time make mistakes. Some of them are working in very remote parts of the country, including the Scottish Isles, and they may only be able to communicate with their employers by post. Not being very expert in these matters they will probably make mistakes in their Income Tax deduction. The postal service may profit by this, because there will be a considerable amount of correspondence between the employers and the employees. For example the employee will be told, "You should have deducted 14s. 7d. and not 14s. 6d., and therefore there is a penny due from you to be paid next week." The amounts these people collect vary from week to week and their earnings vary accordingly, and the Income Tax will vary from week to week. I ask the Financial Secretary, who has so far shown such open-mindedness, to consider these proposals as friendly criticisms, and, though not necessarily replying now, to give an undertaking to look into the matters raised and if possible see that they are covered by the same body of Regulations to which he has referred.
    Mr. Butcher: The proposal of the hon. Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas) is that we should exclude paragraph (b). I am bound to say that I think the Chancellor has been rather like the juggler whom we used to admire in the variety halls, who, having climbed to a great height with great effort, then impresses us further by his ability to do juggling feats at that height, because it seems to me this particular sub-section rather imposes upon the Chancellor an undue handicap in the construction of tables. My hon. Friend the Member for Kennington (Mr. Wilmot) spoke of the importance of making sure that the wage-earner had every opportunity of understanding how his wage packet was made up. It is a point to which, quite properly, all workers attach the greatest importance, and, equally, all intelligent employers take pains to ensure that gross earnings, deductions, and so on are made perfectly clear to their employees. As my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Spen Valley (Major Woolley) has pointed out, we shall have men earning the same sums

    1465
    in three different weeks and having different tax deductions. We may have three men working on the same job for the same number of hours, at the same rate of pay and receiving the same gross wages, but finding different spendable sums of their wages envelope. That will make for confusion and misunderstanding. What really matters to the worker, and above all to the worker's wife, is what I may call the free spending income, the amount available to be spent when health insurance payments, Income Tax, and trade union dues have all been accounted for. Taking examples 4 and 5 on page 14 of the White Paper, we see that in the fourth week the man earned £5 4s. and the tax deduction was £1 4s., leaving him with £4 to take home to his wife. Next week he earns 11s. more, but the tax deduction is only £1, and he therefore takes home 15s. more. Having earned only 11s. more he takes home 15s. more in his wages envelope.
    I am bound to say that a system such as that will create confusion in the minds of the ordinary wage earner. On the other hand, the scheme is so good that I hope the Chancellor, in constructing his tables, will not worry very much about securing a meticulous measure of justice and making things balance to within 1s. at the end of the year. Let it work on a basis of rough justice: he can get it right during the year, even though that may mean an adjustment of £2 or £3 one way or the other at the end of the year. Above all, let us have it nice and simple; if the man earns the same money each week he should suffer the same tax deduction; and if a number of men are earning the same wage at the same job then, subject to their family conditions being the same, their deductions should be in line with one another.
    Mr. Woodburn: We are all in sympathy with the desire to have more simplicity. If some scheme can be devised which gives absolute simplicity, I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will accept it. I can speak on these matters from my own experience. I spent a day in an engineering works, and in the foundry, where they had a most complicated system of making up the wages. I discussed this scheme with the directors and with the pay clerks, the men who are going to do the job. They said that,
    1466
    after going carefully into the matter, they saw no difficulty at all in working it.
    Mr. Bowles: In Scotland?
    Mr. Woodburn: Yes, in Scotland. En a case where you pay £4 a week all toe time an addition to the work is relatively of great importance. In an engineering works where the clerk has to calculate straight time, 47 hours at is. 17 11/16d. and then he has to calculate 39 17/24 hours at time-and-a-half, then percentages, then has to deduct insurances and infirmary dues, then about 10 per cent. for other things and then make up the man's wages, we can understand that looking up a table and making two separate calculations is relatively simplicity itself.
    Mr. Bowles: It may be the last straw.
    Mr. Woodburn: Yes, it might be the last straw that breaks the camel's back. It may be also that Scotsmen like making calculations. I do not know but so far as I can see the benefits of the scheme outweigh any disadvantages that come from particular tables.
    Major Woolley: The hon. Member suggests that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, and no one would disagree with that, but I would ask him whether, if a simpler scheme of tables can be evolved he would object to the simplicity being incorporated?
    Mr. Woodburn: I am all in favour of it. The only point is that I do not want to create the impression in the country that the present scheme is unworkable. I am willing to press the Chancellor to consider any simpler scheme, but I do not want this scheme delayed on account of somebody making calculations that do not require to be made by the worker at all. It has been suggested that the worker requires to calculate whether his Income Tax is exact. That is very interesting, because I have never been able to check my own Income Tax for a good many years. I am very interested to hear that any hon. Member knows when his Income Tax is correct. To tell the truth I have much more confidence in the Inland Revenue than I have in myself in this matter. At one time I was the only person in an office who understood some of the rebates made in regard to deductions at source. It was extremely complicated, until the voucher was issued to

    1467
    indicate to every taxpayer what had been deducted from taxation at source. All these things have come from experience. While I desire some simplicity and say if there is a better scheme let us have it, let us not delay the present scheme because of imaginary obstacles. Many of those that have been mentioned do not exist in fact.
    Mr. McEntee: Everybody is agreed that if a simpler scheme can be evolved it will be an advantage, and it has on the other hand been stated that if accuracy is to be obtained week by week such a scheme cannot be evolved. Like many other hon. Members who move among workers and know their views, I am certain that if anything like a reasonable calculation can be made, they would rather pay something over the amount due week by week and have a bit to come at the end of the year than pay something under the amount and be left with something to pay at the end of the year. I have never been able to calculate my Income Tax, which is based almost entirely on the income which I get here. I have always left it to the Inland Revenue Department to make the calculations, and I pay what they ask me to pay. On more than one occasion when I was satisfied that I had been justly treated they have sent me a bit back. It ought to be possible to evolve a reasonable average that in most cases might charge the workers a little bit more week by week than they ought to pay so that at the end of the year they can have a little bit back.
    Mr. McLean Watson (Dunfermline): I agree with my hon. Friend that the people responsible for making the deductions will be able to undertake these tasks but I am not sure that they will find it a simpler system than that which they have had in the past. I am glad that the representative of the Ministry of Labour is on the Front Bench, because I am not sure whether what I have to say does not concern that Department more than it does the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. With a wage that is constant it is a simple matter to deal with the Income Tax, but it is most complicated to calculate the deductions to be made upon a collier's pay ticket. It would not have been so bad if there had been left as they were in the offices of the undertakings staffs
    1468
    capable of making the calculations week by week. First of all the offices were staffed by young men who were being brought on to be cashiers, but since the war, the young men have had to go somewhere else and young girls have had to come in to assist in making the calculations. Just when the girls are able to do the work the Ministry of Labour has taken them away and new ones have had to be brought in.
    The result is that we have received protests from collieries all over the country where these elaborate calculations have to be made week by week. They are seriously concerned about having to deal with these complicated questions affecting wages. I hope that there will be some understanding between the Treasury and the Ministry of Labour with regard to the proper equipment of these offices for dealing with these calculations, and that as a result of a discussion we shall have on this matter they will see whether a simpler system can be provided or whether there can be put in, or allowed to remain in, the offices, staffs capable of dealing with these matters.
    The Attorney-General: It is, of course, always a good aim and a great aim to try to make everything as simple as possible. On the other hand, as the Committee know, the history of this topic is broadly as follows; that schemes were put up and considered and dealt with in the White Paper of last year which pointed out the objections to such schemes as were then envisaged, and which I think were then felt to be insuperable, the broad objection being that under any scheme which is not on a cumulative principle you are liable to have over-deductions or under-deductions and adjustments at the end of the year, which is not a satisfactory system. I quite agree that if you are to have adjustments there is something to be said for preferring to get a bit back than having to pay a bit more. That was the view of the hon. Member for West Waltham-stow (Mr. McEntee). On the other hand, I can imagine quite a formidable body of objection from people if in fact they were told that a scheme was being introduced on the basis that a very large number of them would have larger sums taken off for Income Tax than they were liable to pay.

    1469
    This Amendment proposes to leave out the Sub-section which embodies the principle upon which this whole scheme is based. [Interruption.] Yes, the Subsection. The Sub-section says that these tables are to be constructed with a view to securing that so far as possible:
    "the tax deductible or repayable on the occasion of any payment of, or on account of, emoluments is such that the total net tax deducted since the beginning of the year of assessment bears to the total tax payable for the year the same proportion that the part of the year which ends with the date of the payment bears to the whole year."
    Mr. Douglas: That is paragraph (b), not the Sub-section.
    The Attorney-General: I beg the hon. Member's pardon; that is the paragraph which the Amendment proposes to leave out. I think we all realise what these words mean, that at any given pay day you take the total amount of wages—say that in two-thirds of the year £200 total wages had been paid—and deduct so much. You will estimate that £200 for two-thirds of the year means £300 for the year, and you find what is the proportion of the tax payable on that basis up to that time. The great virtue of that scheme —and surely it is the reason why it has commended itself particularly to the wage-earners of this country and has received encomiums from all parts of the House—is, first, that at the end of the year, you have finished, and, secondly, if in the course of the year you have paid more tax than it looks as though you will ultimately have to pay you get a repayment.
    This Amendment proposes to leave out that paragraph, and my hon. Friend's motive in moving it, as he told the Committee, was in order that there might be scope for consideration of a scheme, the outlines of which or the full details of which he sent to my right hon. Friend. It is not on the cumulative system, and he agrees that it is less exact. That inaccuracy was not very important, but there really is in this matter no half-way house.
    I believe the Committee will accept this: You have either got to have the cumulative system, which does undoubtedly mean a fairly elaborate set of tables—and within the principle laid down by the scheme my right hon. Friend is ready to consider whether there can be any simplification—or you have to have
    1470
    one of these other systems which will lead either to under-deductions or over-deductions and will lead to quarterly or annual adjustments which are bound to be one way or the other. Obviously if you are to have a scheme which is to make a shot at the tax due, sometimes it will be below the mark and sometimes above it. We believe it is the scheme as embodied in these tables which has commended itself to the persons affected and which this Bill has been introduced in order to carry out. Therefore to omit a paragraph which really confines the tables within the principles of the scheme would be something we could not possibly contemplate.
    Reference has been made to the amount of extra work that this may put on the pay clerks. My hon. Friend the Member for East Stirling (Mr. Woodburn) and the hon. Member for Dumfermline (Mr. Watson) pointed out what complicated work pay clerks in many industries already have to do. I agree that that is not in itself a reason for giving them some further complicated task to perform, but over a very wide range of industry the weekly calculation of wages does involve a number of rather complicated factors. One or two hon. Members asked whether the Minister of Labour had been approached and his attention drawn to the fact that this would put extra work on a section of the community which like other sections has been depleted through people being called up. Again I inform the Committee, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, that the Minister of Labour and National Service has been asked to review the instructions to district man-power boards to ensure that special consideration is given to any additional work which may be thrown on to wages clerks as a result of these proposals.
    Undoubtedly there will be extra work, how great I think it is probably a little too early to say. Obviously when you first begin a thing it takes a longer time than when you once get into it. It may be that some of the estimates that have been made are on the pessimistic side, but my right hon. Friend appreciates, as he made clear in his Second Reading speech, the extra work it throws on those who do this work in the many industries of this country. He hopes that this burden will not be an undue one, and he certainly appreciates the general willingness which has been shown by employers and those who

    1471
    have to do with this work to do their best to see that this scheme is made to work, because it is a scheme which is so generally acclaimed in all parts of the Committee and the country. I am afraid that we cannot accept this Amendment, which would really introduce some principle other than that principle, the cumulative principle, on which this Bill is based, and which we believe was the principle on which it was accepted when this House gave this Bill a Second Reading.
    Mr. Bowles: Could the Attorney-General on behalf of the Financial Secretary give an undertaking that points I raised will be considered?
    The Attorney-General: Yes, certainly.
    Mr. Douglas: I am extremely disappointed with the Attorney-General's reply, because it seems to indicate that his mind is not open to any fresh consideration of the matter. I hope that that does not reflect the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have been told that we must have a scheme based entirely on the cumulative principle, and that no alternative can be considered. Surely that is not the way an entirely new proposal of this kind should be approached. The Attorney-General has buttressed himself upon the fact that there has been a general welcome in the country for this proposal. There has not been a general welcome in the country for its details. Very few people are familiar with the details. It was only a year ago that the Treasury told us that this job could not be done at all. Now they have come forward with a way of doing it. In view of that record, I beg them to realise that it may be possible to devise a simpler means of doing it than that which they have proposed. The Attorney-General says that any alternative scheme must inevitably involve both under-deductions and over-deductions. That indicates that he knows nothing about the scheme which I have put forward. That scheme does not involve any under-deductions at all, though it does involve some over-deductions.
    My constituents who worked out this scheme—I take no credit for it myself—worked out what would happen to the examples given in the White Paper. Their proposal is that there should be a quarterly adjustment of the over-payments. Take Example A. All the adjustment required
    1472
    at the end of the first quarter is a refund of 2s. 1d., at the end of the second quarter a refund of 3s. 11d., at the end of the third quarter a refund of 6s. 8d., at the end of the fourth quarter a refund of 1s. 1d. There does not appear to be any great injustice in that. Take Example B, in which there is a considerable fluctuation in wages. At the end of the first quarter the refund is 6d., at the end of the second quarter it is £1 6s. 5d., at the end of the third quarter it is £5 4s. 1d., and at the end of the fourth quarter 12s. 9d. There has been an extreme fluctuation of wages between £8 and £10 a week in the first quarter, and between £3 and £4 a week in the third quarter. Even then the refund is not very great. I asked my constituents to work out a case from their experience. They employ a large number of people. I asked them to take a case exhibiting a great variation of wages. They found in the case they took that in the first quarter the maximum refund was £1 8s., in the second quarter 12s. 2d., in the third quarter £1 19s. 9d., and in the fourth quarter 12s. 9d. Can anybody complain about that?
    Look at the alternative. This firm are enlightened employers, and they are anxious to introduce the pay-as-you-earn scheme. They calculate that to operate the White Paper scheme they would want 20 clerks on one day—and the work cannot be spread out, otherwise it would delay the pay-day. Under their proposals they would want two clerks for one day and one for a week, a total of eight days' work, compared with 20. If a saving of 60 per cent. can be achieved in this way, and if the workman understands how it is done and is able to check the amount of the deduction, and if it does not inflict any hardship upon him, as it would not, I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer not to close his mind to the possibility that there is a practical way of achieving the result we all desire, with substantial accuracy, and at the end of a limited period—a quarter, let us say—achieving it with precise accuracy and justice. Therefore, I am not satisfied with the reply of the Attorney-General, which does not indicate a detailed knowledge of the scheme I have put forward.
    Amendment negatived.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Butcher: I feel that the reply we have received from the learned Attorney-General was hardly as full or as satisfactory as it should be. My right hon. and learned Friend did not explain to any extent how the ordinary wage-earner would be shown the balance between the deductions of tax from different persons under the same personal circumstances, engaged upon the same work. The only explanation so far that the employer is able to give to his workers is, "I really do not understand it very much, but the Attorney-General has told me that it is constructed on the cumulative principle." Another point relates to the size of these code tables. An hon. Member suggested that they would run to 5,000 pages, at which the Financial Secretary shook his head. A figure of 1,000 pages was then suggested, at which I do not think there was any head-shaking. Perhaps my hon. Friend will tell us how many pages there will be? We can at least ask him whether they will look like a pocket time-table or like three Bradshaws stuck together.
    Mr. Assheton: I cannot say how many pages there will be, but it will be nearer 1,000 than 5,000. I would remind the Committee that I said the other day, when replying to the Second Reading Debate, that it was the intention of the Inland Revenue to make what modification of the tables they could, to obviate the undue fluctuations suggested by hon. Members. We cannot alter the cumulative principle on which the tables are made out, but we will do all we can to modify the tables to reduce the amount of variation.
    Sir A. Beit: May I make another comment about the tax tables, arising out of something which I said on the Second Reading? I then advocated a husband and wife being separately assessed. I am not surprised that I did not get a reply from the Financial Secretary on that occasion, as a great and controversial reform could not be expected on such a limited Bill as this. The reason I brought it up was because a husband and wife who are both in employment—and that during the war must apply to hundreds of thousands of people—are both subjected to these taxation tables which take into account the reduced rate of relief, that is to say, the first £165 on which less than the full rate is paid, with the result, as stated in the White Paper, that at the end of the first year the husband and wife will in all
    1474
    probability, indeed it is more than a probability, have paid less than they should have paid. They will have to pay the balance in the following year and it will once again be doing what we are trying to get away from doing, namely, paying the previous year's tax. I can only see two solutions of the problem unless it is considered satisfactory and should be left as it is. The one is that a second series of tables should be prepared which do not take account of reduced rate relief, and where a husband and wife are both in employment, not necessarily at the same place, it should be arranged that in tae case of one, presumably the husband, a different tax table should apply. I imagine that this would cause a great deal of additional labour, and we know how short that is. I am forced upon the only other alternative and that is that the simplest matter, certainly in respect of assessment, will be to allow the reduced rate relief to apply to both husband and wife, who would be assessed at his or her particular work, and there would not, at the end of the year, be a large amount of tax to carry forward.
    Question "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Transitional provisions.)
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Brooke: I would like to invite the attention of the Committee to Sub-section (4) of Clause 3, which deals with the transitional provisions and the discharge of tax. It is so complex that I am not going to attempt to explain the Subsection, nor ask for any immediate answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon it. But I hope he will be able to remove from my mind the fear that this Sub-section is going to give rise to some rather serious anomalies. As I understand it, if a person dies towards the end of April, 1944, he will have paid tax for either two or five months during the year 1943-44 on his total earnings in that year, and it is provided by that Subsection that the tax in respect of the remaining 10 or seven months shall be discharged. Compare his lot with that of the man who dies on 31st March, 1944. He also will have had 12 months' earnings during the year 1943–44, and will have paid by deduction in respect perhaps of two months' earnings and there will be

    1475
    10 months' outstanding. The widow will be required to pay the whole of that outstanding tax from his estate on his death; or, in other cases, where the deduction in respect of 1943–44 started at the beginning of November, 1943, the Revenue will be entitled to claim seven months' outstandings arrears of tax. It is clear that the amount of taxation that two taxpayers have to pay in respect of the year 1943–44 should be based on what they actually earn in that year, and should not vary tremendously according to the chance dates on which each of them dies or is compelled to retire. If I am wrong and no such anomaly arises nobody will be happier than I; but if in fact there is substance in what I am saying, and I believe there is, I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will afford me an opportunity to discuss this point with him between now and the Report stage of the Bill.
    Mr. William Brown: I rise to ask an assurance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of the treatment of public servants, who, as a result of the deliberations of this House, are being brought within the scope of the Bill. Clause 3, Sub-sections (3) and (4) of the Bill provide for the discharge of tax for 1943–44. In the case of manual wage-earners it provides that 10/12ths of the tax on earnings for 1943 are to be discharged. A man has to be forgiven that amount of tax. For the non-manual earners the figure is seven-twelfths. Unless this Committee makes some specific provision in the case of public servants, there will be no discharge at all. The explanation of that is that the Chancellor takes our tax away from us month by months, and by the time that this Bill comes into operation the whole of the civil servant's tax will have been paid up to date. Unless we now give him a rebate of 7/12ths or 10/12ths as the case may be, the civil servant, merely because he is a civil servant, will for the year 1943–44, have paid very much more tax than he would have done had he been outside the public service and come under Sub-sections {3) and (4) of the Clause. I do not pretend that this is the gravest injustice of all time but it is a substantial hardship which can only be put right if the Chancellor agrees that civil servants brought under the Bill should, in the
    1476
    case of weekly wage earners, pay no more tax in the next ten months, and in the case of salaried earners pay no more tax for the next seven months. That would have the effect of putting the public servant on precisely the same footing as a member of the outside public, and anything less than that would obviously be repugnant to the sense of justice of the public servant.
    Sir John Mellor (Tamworth): I want to say something about the discharge provided for in Clause 3. The Chancellor in the Debate on the Amendment to Clause I made it clear that he was unable to extend the scope of the Bill as far as many hon. Members would have liked on the ground that the further he extended the scope of the Bill the greater would be the amount of the tax discharge, and so the more would the interests of those taxpayers who are outside the scope of the Bill be prejudiced. I want to ask the Financial Secretary what attempt there has been made to find a way in which, while extending the scope of the Bill to the maximum, the effect of the consequential discharge should be reduced to a minimum. Under Sub-section (5) of Clause 3 there is a set-off of postwar credit for the current year against the amount discharged. I want to ask the Financial Secretary why the matter has not been carried still further so that the amount of post-war credit which may ultimately accrue would be cancelled out against the amount of tax discharged.
    I raised this point on the Second Reading, but for circumstances of which I make no complaint my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary was unable to reply on that occasion. I want to ask him if he will give an explanation why the total ultimate post-war credit should not be brought into account. I have searched in the Debates on the Finance Bill for 1941 to see whether any undertakings were given which would make it unfair or dishonourable for the Government to take the course I am suggesting. I have not been able to find anything which would make it unfair, in my opinion. I found this reference in the speech of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in moving the Second Reading of the Finance Bill, 1941. He said with regard to postwar credit:
    "Any assignment or charge on the amount to be credited, or any agreement for such an

    1477
    assignment, is to be void. This, I hope, will close the door—I think it will—to speculation in these credits, which I am sure the House will agree, would be most undesirable and detrimental to all concerned. [OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd May, 1941; col. 1611, vol. 371]
    I do not think that that passage has given any special sanctity to post-war credit beyond providing that it shall not be a negotiable instrument. The whole purpose of precluding the assignment of post-war credits was to prevent their being dealt with in an ordinary commercial manner. I do not think there is anything in the passage I have referred to which would preclude the Government from taking them into account in settlement of debt between the Government and the taxpayer. I do not know whether there is any practical objection, but if so I would be grateful if the Financial Secretary would explain it. I have no doubt that if my suggestion were adopted, it would involve perhaps a further crop of anomalies and certain elements of hardship. Whatever we do in this Bill, that is inevitable, but I think that on balance of rough justice, or rough injustice, if my suggestion were adopted it would be fairer to the general body of taxpayers than what would happen if the Bill was passed in its present form.
    Mr. Assheton: My hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke) raised a point which I should be very happy, as he suggested, to discuss with him later. I am, however, inclined to think that his point is not a very good one, because he will bear in mind that the object of this discharge is to prevent any overlapping in deduction. Although it may not be as satisfactory from a financial point of view to die on one day as on another, I am not sure that it is reasonable to expect us to make provision for the sort of case he put forward. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. W. Brawn) made the appeal which I half expected he might. I am fully aware of the circumstances of civil servants in this matter but I think the reply which I have given to my hon. Friend the Member for West Lewisham will to some extent suffice as a reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby. There will be no overlapping deduction, and there will therefore be no occasion in the case of civil servants to provide for any discharge of tax.
    Mr. W. Brown: Does the Financial Secretary defend a situation in which two subjects of His Majesty are treated differently in respect of tax of last year? Why should Crown servants be the only people in England who are denied any discharge of tax?
    Mr. Assheton: A number of His Majesty's subjects are not going to gain advantage from this particular discharge. I am one of them, and many other hon: Members may find themselves in the same position
    Mr. Brown: But virtue is only commendable when it is voluntary.
    Mr. Assheton: I am not claiming any virtue; I am only drawing attention to the fact. There is no doubt that the object of this discharge is to prevent overlapping. In the case of civil servants there will be no overlapping, so there will be no discharge. My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) raised two points. One was whether there was any objection to setting off amounts to be discharged under the Bill against post-war credits against other than the current year's post-war credit. My hon. Friend referred to a statement made by the late Chancellor in 1941. If he will be good enough to look at the late Chancellor's Budget speech on 14th April, 1942, column 124, of Hansard, he will see there the pledge which was given and which led to the late Chancellor coming to the conclusion that in any event, whether he desired to do so or not, there will be no possibility of adopting the proposal which my hon. Friend has made.
    My hon. Friend also asked me in the Second Reading Debate what was the possibility of two standard rates of Income Tax. He suggested there might be a standard rate for the pay-as-you-earn people and another rate for other people, and he wrote to me on this matter. I promised him that I would give him an answer. The difficulty, clearly, is that everyone who comes on to pay-as-you-go has not an immediate advantage. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby, thinking of his Civil Service colleagues, knows that some of them who have been fortunate to receive increments in their salary will pay more tax next year than they would if this new system had not

    1479
    been introduced. They would not welcome the idea of being taxed at a higher rate than people who were placed otherwise. It is quite clear that a double rate of Income Tax would be a quite impracticable proposition and would not achieve the objects which my hon. Friend had in mind.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Short title, construction and repeal.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. Assheton: My right hon. Friend said earlier in the Debate that it would not
    1480
    be necessary to recommit the Bill, and had that been the case I should have asked permission to move a small Amendment in order to ensure a Report stage. But I understand that consultations have taken place and that it is considered desirable that the Bill should be recommitted. I therefore will not trouble the Committee by moving an Amendment.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    First and Second Schedules agreed to.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time upon the next Sitting Day.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain McEwen.]