Commons Sitting of 3 June 1942

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

HOUSE OF COMMONS CHAMBER (LIGHTING).
Mr. Tinker: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Before the first Question is put, may I ask whether it is in your power to cause the Chamber to be made a little brighter and for sunshine to be brought in? There was a saying in olden days: "Let candles be brought in"; I would ask, in modern language: "Mr. Speaker, bring in the sunshine."
Mr. T. Smith: Hear, hear. "Let there be light."

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  SHANGHAI MUNICIPAL PENSIONERS.
  Captain Gammansasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the fact that the British Government was prepared to pay the pensions of French civil servants in Madagascar, he is willing to reconsider his decision with regard to the pensioners of the Shanghai municipality; and to recommend that a loan be granted to the London agents of the municipality on the security of the present and future assets of the municipality, which will enable these pensions to British subjects to be paid?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): I am unable to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion that the two cases are comparable. The offer to Madagascar was a consequence of the general offer, made after the French Armistice with Germany, to guarantee the pay and pensions of the officials of any colony which continued the struggle. I
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  would point out that such a guarantee would not necessarily involve payments from public funds, since the territories concerned would, so far as possible, continue to provide the necessary revenues. As regards the last part of the Question, His Majesty's Government have every sympathy with these victims of enemy action, but I regret that I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Moseley (Mr. A. Hopkinson) on 6th May.
  Captain Gammans: Considering the tens of millions of pounds which this country has received from Shanghai, does not my right hon. Friend feel that the British Government might take a more generous attitude towards the Shanghai Municipality and might make them a temporary loan till the close of the war to enable them to meet their just obligations?
  Mr. Eden: As I have said, we have every sympathy with those people, but it would be wrong if the House were to think that they are alone. There are others whose claims might be as strong or even stronger. I am going carefully into the matter, and at the moment I can add no more to what I have already said.

  TURKEY (GREEK AND JEWISH REFUGEES).
  Commander Locker-Lampsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what arrangements have been made with Turkey to receive 5,000 Greek refugees; and whether he is considering making the same facilities available for any Jewish refugees?
  Mr. Eden: A considerable number of Greek refugees have reached Turkey recently, and care is being taken for their maintenance, but I have no knowledge of any scheme under which Greek refugees are received for permanent residence in Turkey. The second part of the Question therefore does not arise.

  FRENCH WARSHIPS (GERMAN SAILORS).
  Sir Patrick Hannonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether official information has reached him that the Vichy Government have given permission for the training of German sailors on

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  French warships; and whether any protest has been made by the Allied Powers?
  Mr. Eden: The answer to the first part of the Question is No, Sir. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
  Sir P. Hannon: If any indication comes to my right hon. Friend that steps are being taken by the Vichy Government to facilitate the training of German sailors, will an appropriate protest be made?
  Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend will appreciate that that question is hypothetical.

  ECUADOR (BRITISH MINISTER RESIDENT).
  Sir P. Hannonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign. Affairs whether his attention has been called to the peculiar position which the British Minister Resident occupies in the Republic of Ecuador; that in his present diplomatic status he suffers in precedence in contrast with the representatives of other countries; whether, to maintain British prestige he will consider according to this Minister such rank in the Diplomatic Service as would confer upon him his appropriate place in the local Corps Diplomatique; and whether an entertainment allowance commensurate with the position of British Minister will be provided in Ecuador?
  Mr. Eden: The position of His Majesty's Minister Resident at Quito in no way differs from that of His Majesty's Ministers Resident in certain other Latin American countries, and his precedence is determined by international diplomatic usage. He receives emoluments on the same scale as his predecessor. He has, however, been instructed to furnish a statement of his expenditure if he finds the allowances made to him inadequate, in order that, if necessary, authority may be sought for an increase.
  Sir P. Hannon: Is my right hon. Friend really satisfied that this Minister enjoys full diplomatic status? If application is made to my right hon. Friend for an increase in the allowances for this Minister, will he give the application sympathetic consideration?
  Mr. Eden: This is a recognised diplomatic position. As to the second part of
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  the question, I have asked for a report on the matter, and if more money is needed, the matter will be looked into.

  CHINA (ASSISTANCE).
  Sir John Wardlaw-Milneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will make a statement as to the assistance now being given to China in the form of munitions, aircraft, etc., and as to the effect of the great help of her troops upon the campaign in Burma?
  Mr. Eden: I am sure that there is no one in this House or in the country who does not fully recognise the important part played by China in the ranks of the United Nations, and the need to give her every assistance in our power. China is being furnished, under Lend-Lease arrangements made by this country and by the United States, with all the munitions of war and military equipment which it is possible to supply, having regard to other urgent requirements and to the difficulties of transport. The allocation of those munitions is made from the common pool by the combined Munitions Assignment Boards in Washington and London. I would also remind the House of the £50,000,000 loan which His Majesty's Government are making available to the Chinese Government for war purposes, and the earlier sterling credits amounting to £8,000,000 under which we have done our best to deliver all the material required which we could possibly spare from the needs of our own Forces and our other Allies. In addition to these sums His Majesty's Government have made available to the Chinese Government a credit of £5,000,000 for currency stabilisation. The Chinese troops contributed very materially indeed towards protracting the delaying action fought by Imperial Forces in Burma. I am happy to say that good feeling and a spirit of co-operation prevailed whenever and wherever the two armies fought side by side.
  Mr. Gordon Macdonald: Is China represented upon the Assignments Board in America?
  Mr. Eden: Perhaps I could have notice of that Question, and I will find out from Washington. I am not sure.
  Mr. Garro Jones: Has any attempt been made to give a closer definition to Lend-Lease as applied in this country than the

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  rather vague definition which has been given to Lend-Lease by the United States Government?
  Mr. Eden: I would not like to go into questions of definition. If my hon. Friend will put a Question down, I will endeavour to give him an answer.
  Mr. Garro Jones: I have not asked the right hon. Gentleman to define Lend-Lease, but whether any attempt has been made to define it, or whether it has been left vague?
  Mr. Eden: That is a separate matter, and I should like to see the Question on the Paper.
  Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne: Will my right hon. Friend do his utmost to give publicity to his original answer, so that everyone may know the appreciation of this country for the great help which China has given?
  Mr. Eden: Yes, Sir, and I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for his remarks. I think everyone in the House would wish them to cross the world to China.

  ENEMY-OCCUPIED COUNTRIES (SHOOTING OF HOSTAGES).
  Mr. Caryasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether steps are being taken, in consultation with our Allies, to keep records of the shooting of hostages in German occupied countries?
  Mr. Eden: My right hon. Friend will be aware that there are difficulties in present circumstances in obtaining complete and accurate records of this kind. But the victims are nationals of the occupied territories concerned and I have no doubt that our Allies are doing whatever is practicable in this respect.
  Mr. Cary: Are not the complaints of the German Government and authorities about these assassinations rather misguided, because many of them might have been carried out by deserters from the German army, of which there are now quite a large number in hiding in different parts of Europe?
  Mr. Eden: I agree with my hon. Friend that the German Government are misguided. I find no difficulty about that.

  UNITED STATES AND JAPAN.
  Mr. Stokesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, when an undertaking was given by him on behalf of His Majesty's Government that, if the United States of America were attacked by Japan a British declaration of war would follow within the hour, a reciprocal promise was obtained from the President of the United States of America?
  Mr. Eden: No, Sir.
  Mr. Stokes: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, in the absence of such a reciprocal arrangement, it is all the more inexplicable that adequate steps were not taken for the defence of Malaya?

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    GRATUITIES.
    Mr. T. Smithasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that Flight-Lieutenant Goutrey, F.805937/41/F 7.A., took a short service commission in the Royal Air Force for four years in 1936, a gratuity of £300 to be paid upon completion of same; that just prior to termination of this service he was asked by the authorities to continue for a further two years, his gratuity to be increased to £500; that he agreed; that after the four years had terminated, but before the six years expired, he was killed; that although he had willed the £300 to his parents the authorities have refused to pay this money; and whether consideration will be given to an ex-gratia payment in this case and an alteration made in the Regulations?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): The general rule governing cases such as that to which the hon. Member refers is that should an officer holding a short-service commission die before completing his initial period of service or, if he has voluntarily extended his service, before completing the extended period, no gratuity is payable to his estate. This is a term of his contract, and the reason is that gratuities of this kind are primarily intended to assist resettlement in civil life. Dependants are separately provided for by means of pensions and allowances. Similar conditions apply to the gratuities and retired pay of Crown Servants generally, and I know of no grounds on which an ex-gratia payment could be justified in this particular case.
    Mr. Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that his Department admits that if this man had broken his continuity by only one day, £300 would have been paid? May I ask him for a reconsideration of the case? Perhaps he and I might have a chat about the circumstances surrounding it.
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir, certainly.

    AWARDS FOR GALLANTRY.
    Mr. Ammonasked the Secretary of State for Air in what manner did the noncommissioned flying officers, recently decorated for their part in the recent raid on Lubeck, differ in responsibility, initiative or courage, from the commissioned officers who were given awards for their part in the same operation?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Their conduct was of equal merit, and so were their awards.
    Mr. Ammon: Why were they given a different award?
    Sir A. Sinclair: They were given awards of equal merit.
    Mr. Ammon: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the scathing comment on his replies concerning this matter in "Reveille," a paper which circulates among the men of the Air Service?
    Mr. Shinwell: Why is the right hon. Gentleman so sticky about this? Why does he not respond to public feeling and grant a distinction which is fair to everybody?
    Sir A. Sinclair: There is no question of stickiness. These awards are equal. The D.F.M. is an award which is cherished by those who receive it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
    Mr. Shinwell: Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the cheers from hon. Members behind him indicate their desire to retain class distinction?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I heard cheers from all over the House.

    LEAVE.
    Mr. Tinkerasked the Secretary of State for Air the number of occasions in a year on which an airman is entitled to leave and the length thereof; and whether commanding officers have discretion to grant passes to destinations other than the man's home?
    Sir A. Sinclair: In reply to the first part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) on 21st January; and in reply to the second part to the answer given to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Stockport (Wing-Commander Hulbert) on 18th March.
    Mr. Tinker: Could I put this question definitely to my right hon. Friend? If a man is entitled to leave, and he desires to go to some other part of the country than his own and shows good cause, has the commanding officer power to grant him a pass to that place?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Yes, Sir, the commanding officer can give four free warrants every year to any part of the country; it is within his discretion.

    GERMAN CRUISER "PRINZ EUGEN."
    Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Air at what time on Saturday, 16th May, the German cruiser "Prinz Eugen" was sighted exercising in a Trondheim fjord; at what time on the following day she was sighted steaming south and at what time attacked; whether any 21-inch torpedoes were used by the attacking aircraft; and whether the present whereabouts and condition of this warship are known?
    Sir A. Sinclair: It is not in the public interest to give details of this operation. Excellent work on the part of Coastal Command enabled successful reconnaissance to be carried out in difficult circumstances on 16th and 17th May, in consequence of which the attack developed between 7.45 and 8.30 p.m. on 17th May. The most recent information indicates that the "Prinz Eugen" is now being repaired at Kiel; I have nothing to add to what has already been published regarding the damage she has suffered.
    Mr. Garro Jones: How is it that facts which it is not in the public interest to disclose to the House can be detected by hon. members for themselves by a careful study of authentic despatches by newspaper correspondents, and will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his refusal to give these facts in answer to my Question if I show him the answers to them in "The Times" despatches?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I do not know what the hon. Member means by "authentic." It is an adjective which would certainly not apply to a number of despatches on air operations. Certainly, if the hon. Member will show me any articles he has read, I shall be glad to consider them.
    Mr. Shinwell: When this ship is finally disposed of, will it be in the public interest to tell us?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I think we had better wait and see.

  BRITISH OVERSEAS AIRWAYS CORPORATION.

    PILOTS (FLYING HOURS).
    Wing-Commander Grant - Ferrisasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that many British Overseas Airways Corporation pilots are flying many more hours per month than are allowed by the regulation; that one has flown, approximately, 200 hours in 14 days recently; and what steps are being taken to relieve these pilots?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The regulations provide that a holder of a licence who has completed 125 hours flying as a pilot in any period of 30 days should be medically examined and pronounced fit before continuing to fly. War-time requirements necessitate from time to time that pilots should fly more than 125 hours a month; the average is less than this figure. I have no information which suggests that the regulations are not complied with generally, or as to the particular case referred to in the second part of the Question. If my hon. and gallant Friend will let me have details, I will have inquiries made.

    FLYING-BOAT "CLARE" (INCIDENT).
    Wing - Commander Grant-Ferrisasked the Secretary of State for Air why the British Overseas Airways Corporation's flying-boat "Clare" was left riding at anchor for 1¾ hours, on the 26th instant, when it was known to the British Overseas Airways Corporation authorities on shore that passengers were seriously ill; and will he take steps to avoid similar occurrences in future?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The circumstances of this incident are being looked into, and I will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend in due course.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    CONTROLLER-GENERAL, AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION.
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Minister of Aircraft Production what change is being made in connection with the position of Director-General of Production in his Ministry; and what terms will govern any new appointment?
    The Minister of Aircraft Production (Colonel Llewellin): Yes, Sir. I very much regret that Sir Charles Craven, who has done such excellent work as Controller-General at my Ministry, has been compelled to resign that office under orders from his doctor. I know that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, my predecessor and myself are very grateful to Sir Charles Craven for the great ser-vice he has rendered to the country in the production of aircraft. I hope in the course of a few days to be able to announce the arrangements which I shall in consequence make.
    Sir Percy Harris: Will this distinguished gentleman return to the management of Vickers, or will he remain mainly occupied by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department?
    Colonel Llewellin: He is remaining in the capacity of a part-time adviser to me.
    Mr. Ness Edwards: If I put a Question down, will my hon. and gallant Friend be able to supply information to the House?
    Colonel Llewellin: I hope so; I will let my hon. Friend know when I can.

    MINISTRY OF FOOD (OFFICE SITE).
    Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings, whether it is still the intention of his Department to construct a building on good agricultural land, for the purpose of offices for the Ministry of Food in a town specified to him?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): It is proposed to commence building work as soon as labour can be made available. As stated in my reply on 19th May, the site has been selected after consultation with the local land Commissioner of the Ministry of Agriculture.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: Does the Minister think that it is a form of national economy

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    to use labour and materials to erect a building now for the Ministry of Food in Colwyn Bay, when there are buildings available in the town which could be occupied, as one can see week by week from the advertisements in the local Press?
    Mr. Hicks: My hon. Friend will be aware of the discussions and correspondence that I have had with him, and every nook and cranny of that neighbourhood has been searched to try and find accommodation which is available.
    Sir H. Morris-Jones: As my hon. Friend and the Department have viewed other buildings, will he consider an available alternative site, which is not good agricultural land but derelict land, and has already been suitably prepared for building purposes within the area?
    Mr. Hicks: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Minister of Agriculture agrees that there is no alternative site which would have interfered less with agricultural production than the one we have selected.

    WAR OFFICE (CLERICAL WORK).
    Mr. William Brownasked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers classified A, from a health point of view, and under 40 years of age, engaged in War Office establishments on clerical work which could be done by older men or by women?
    The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Grigg): This information is not available, and the time and labour needed to collect it would not in my opinion be justified.
    Mr. Brown: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that these cases run into many thousands? If I send him specimen examples of this kind of thing, will he be good enough to look into them? It would make a valuable contribution to the manpower problem if he would.
    Sir J. Grigg: I do not think there are many thousands, because the whole staff is not many thousands.

  PALESTINE (REFUGEES).
  Mr. James Griffithsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is intended to permit the refugees on board the s.s. "Mircea" to land in Palestine?
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The "Mircea" passengers, to the number of 40, landed in Palestine on 20th May.

  WEST INDIES.

    BRITISH COUNCIL.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies the nature and extent of the proposed work of the British Council in the West Indies; and also the duties to be undertaken by Mr. F. W. Gray, as representative there of this council?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: As the reply is rather long, with my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    The extension of the activities of the British Council to the West Indies is part of a plan approved by His Majesty's Government for the expansion of the Council's work in the Colonial Empire. The nature and extent of the work in the West Indies will be determined in relation to local needs after consultation with the Governments, the Comptroller of Welfare and Development and local associations. The work will include collaboration with local cultural organisations with a view to the dissemination of information regarding British thought and ways of life including the drama, the fine arts and music, and the establishment of cultural centres where they do not already exist. Other activities will include the provision of scholarships to Great Britain, the organisation of libraries and the supply of British books, periodicals and Press material; the distribution of "British news" and documentary films illustrative of life in Britain and of British culture. The duties of Mr. F. D. Gray will be primarily administrative. It is intended to associate with him a Cultural Adviser for the West Indies.

    TRINIDAD (ESTATE DEVELOPMENT).
    Mr. D. Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the necessity for increased food production in Trinidad, steps are being taken for development for this purpose of bankrupt and derelict sugar and other estates upon the island?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Very active steps are being taken to increase food production in Trinidad, including the compulsory planting of about 3,000 acres of sugar lands, divided between estate and cane farmers' lands, the extensive increase of allotments, house gardens, etc., and the more rapid development of land settlement schemes in hand. All these measures are additional to the food production campaign already in progress.
    Mr. Adams: Is the Minister aware that the local Press are complaining that large areas in the estates are completely undeveloped at the present time?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am afraid the local Press have a habit of complaining, not only in the Colonies, but in the Mother-country as well.

    ANGLO-AMERICAN COMMISSION.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether consideration can be given to the appointment of a West Indian to serve on the Joint Commission with the United States concerned with problems and future development of the West Indies?
    Mr. Rileyasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider the desirability of selecting at least one qualified West Indian representative to serve on the British panel for the Anglo-American Commission for work in the West Indies?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: The appointment of a West Indian to serve on the Anglo-American Commission has already been considered. It would not be possible, however, to make a single appointment to represent all the Colonies concerned, and to have unofficial representatives of each Colony would make the Commission unwieldy. My hon. Friends will, of course, appreciate that the Commission is purely advisory and that its recommendations will be subject to the appropriate consideration by the legislatures of the Colonies concerned.
    Mr. Creech Jones: While appreciating the practical difficulties, may I ask whether it is not about time that when social and economic development is involved the people who are vitally concerned with the recommendations should at least have the opportunity of sharing in their making?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir, but my hon. Friend says that he recognises the practical importance of keeping these Commissions small.
    Mr. Riley: Is the Minister aware of the strong feeling in the West Indies that at least one representative West Indian should be nominated for the British section of the Commission?

    AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.
    Mr. Colegateasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to state when a compulsory air-raid precautions scheme will be enforced in Jamaica and other parts of the West Indies?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: The Governments of Jamaica and other Colonies in the West Indian area have been impressed with the importance of the organisation of A.R.P. schemes, and the Governors have powers to institute compulsory service if and when they consider it necessary.

    WAR DAMAGE COMPENSATION.
    Mr. Colegateasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the absence of any war damage insurance scheme in the West Indies is a matter of grave anxiety to owners of commercial property there; and whether steps are now being taken to institute a scheme on similar lines to that operating in this country?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Yes, Sir. I am aware that anxiety exists in certain Colonies with regard to compensation for war damage. My Noble Friend is in consultation on the whole question with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Wing Commander Grant-Ferris: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the scheme for Malta is complete yet?
    Mr. Macmillan: I could not say, without notice.

    MR. W. A. DOMINGO.
    Mr. Rileyasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Mr. W. A. Domingo is still under detention in Jamaica under the Defence Regulations; and, if so, whether his case has recently been reviewed?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Mr. Domingo is still detained in Jamaica. The Governor

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    has been asked to re-examine the case and to refer it to the Advisory Committee for review, should circumstances justify such a course.

  SIERRA LEONE (ESSENTIAL WORK ORDER).
  Mr. D. Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that workers in Sierra Leone under the Defence (Essential Work General Provisions) Order, may be dismissed without right of appeal to a tribunal, and also that penal sanctions are being imposed under which the liberties of workers are being jeopardised; and will he call for the withdrawal of this sanction?
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: The recent amendment to the Sierra Leone Essential Work Order has abolished the right of both employers and employed to appeal to a local Appeal Board if they are dissatisfied with the decisions of the War Services Officer. The amendment also abolished the right of an employer to dismiss an employee for serious misconduct without the permission of the War Services Officer. The Order as now amended provides that on conviction by a court for any of a number of specified offences, the offender, if sentenced to a fine or to imprisonment, can be dismissed by the employer. My Noble Friend regrets the circumstances which have necessitated the introduction of these regulations, but he is satisfied that this step is necessary to ensure that work essential to the successful prosecution of the war is carried out.
  Mr. Adams: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Sierra Leone the workers, as a consequence of the failure under the Essential Work Order to mitigate their conditions, are in the position of virtual slaves and are being compelled to remain at work or are being dismissed without any remedy?
  Mr. Macmillan: No, Sir. The situation is not at all dissimilar to the Essential Work Order operating in this country.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Does this imply forced labour in private employment for private profit?
  Mr. Macmillan: The situation is very similar to that obtaining under the Essential Work Order in this country.
  Mr. Gallacher: Is there anything in the Regulations that allows for the prosecution or imprisonment of the employers?

  COLONIAL EMPIRE (DEFENCE PERSONNEL).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it will be arranged that in the formation of Home Guard, Civil Defence and other local units in the Colonial Empire, as far as practicable the natural leadership of the colonial peoples will be respected and all superior ranks be opened to men of capacity and leadership, without regard to colour?
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: There is no bar on grounds of race or colour to membership of Home Guard and Civil Defence units in the Colonies, and my Noble Friend is confident that selections for the more responsible posts in those organisations are based solely on merit and capacity for leadership.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman give serious attention to the development of Home Guard organisations under the natural leadership of the Colonial people involved?
  Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir.

  MAURITIUS (VOLUNTEER FORCES).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the opposition expressed in the Mauritius Council of Government to the racial segregation practised in the raising of companies for the Territorial Forces of the Colonies; whether he is aware that there was no colour discrimination when the earlier Mauritius Volunteer Force was formed; and in what respect this new discrimination arises from military necessity?
  Mr. Harold Macmillan: My Noble Friend has seen a report of the relevant debate in the Mauritius Council of Government. It is not, I fear, possible at this date to consult the records of the Mauritius Volunteer Force which was

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  raised during the last war. As regards the last part of the Question, my information is that an effort was made some years ago to form a Mauritius Territorial Force unit without any system of segregation and that it was not a success.
  Mr. Creech Jones: What was the military necessity which determined this departure from policy, and is not this departure merely enforcing segregation and discrimination between the races in Mauritius?
  Mr. Macmillan: The military necessity was to make the force a success. My hon. Friend knows the conditions in Mauritius, and it was not thought that it would be a success if it was run on other lines.

  RAILWAY STATIONS (BOOKING OFFICE DELAYS).
  Sir John Mellorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport whether, in view of the time required at railway booking offices to check Service warrants and the consequent delay in the issue of tickets generally, he will now authorise the Services to issue a form of warrant which shall be valid as a ticket?
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport (Mr. Noel-Baker): As I informed my hon. Friend in a reply to a Supplementary Question on 25th March, this suggestion had then been considered and rejected on the ground that it was not practicable. It is, however, being examined afresh, and I will let my hon. Friend know the result as soon as I can.
  Sir J. Mellor: While I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply, will he bear in mind that it takes about four times as long to check a Service warrant as to issue an ordinary ticket, and that in consequence many civilians either miss the train or else have to take a platform ticket and pay on the train, which practice itself delays the collection of tickets?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Yes, Sir. I am aware of the great difficulties caused by the large number of Service warrants which are now dealt with. Various plans for meeting the difficulty are now under consideration.
  Mr. Shinwell: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that, apart from the effect on
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  civilians, the men themselves often have to queue up at these booking offices carrying heavy kits, and that they really ought to be relieved from this burden?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I think that the inconvenience caused to the men and the public is very considerable.
  Mr. Thorne: Would there be any difficulty in supplying a book of vouchers similar to the arrangement for Members of Parliament?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: That is one of the plans under consideration, but the accountancy difficulties are considerable.
  Mr. Stokes: Does accountancy really matter?
  Mr. Mathers: Is my hon. Friend aware that the War Department issue vouchers for tickets to places where stations do not exist, and that it has been known for a voucher to be given for a bus journey from Thurso to Kirkwall?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: I hope that my hon. Friend will send me details.

  SHIPYARD WORKERS, WALLSEND (QUEUE BARRIER).
  Miss Wardasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of War Transport what action he proposes to take to implement the recommendation by his Northern Regional representative that a queue barrier should be erected to facilitate the travelling of shipyard workers at Wallsend-on-Tyne?
  Mr. Noel-Baker: The Corporation have not seen their way to erect this queue barrier. The Regional Transport Commissioner has referred the matter to the Regional Board of the Ministry of Production, who will discuss it at their next meeting on 15th June.
  Miss Ward: In view of the waste of time which has been going on for something like six months, is the hon. Member aware that if I were a man and not a Member of this honourable House, my language would be unrepeatable?

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    B.B.C. STAFF (MILITARY SERVICE).
    Captain Alan Grahamasked the Minister of Information whether, in view

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    of the number of older British subjects available, possessed of special training as well as great knowledge and experience of the Near and Middle East and other regions, he will comb out of the British Broadcasting Corporation those younger men of military age already employed there who have little or no special knowledge of the languages or experience of the countries actually concerned?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): My hon. and gallant Friend must surely be aware that all such questions of deferment and reservation are decided by Lord Rennet's Committee. The B.B.C. have applied for the deferment only of those members of their specialist staff for whom no substitutes possessing suitable qualifications can be found.
    Viscountess Astor: Is it really wise to get anybody to speak about the East who has never been East? It seems to me most dangerous.
    Captain Plugge: Will the Minister bear in mind that broadcasting is a young science and that many departments of the B.B.C. can only be efficiently run by employing men of the younger generation?
    Mr. Bracken: I think that my hon. and gallant Friend is right.
    Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that there are two young men whom I could recommend who have been put out of the Army because of their ability to make propaganda?

    ARMY OFFICERS (FOREIGN LANGUAGES).
    Captain Alan Grahamasked the Minister of Information whether he will ask the Secretary of State for War for a list of officers of the Regular Army, serving or retired, who were educated in peace-time in certain selected foreign languages, so that their specialised training, acquired at Government expense, may be utilised by his Ministry in connection with propaganda, publicity and broadcasting to the countries of which they have special knowledge?
    Mr. Bracken: On several occasions, when suitable civilian applicants could not be found for such duties, requests have been made for personnel with special qualifications to be released from the
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    Army. Linguistic ability is only one of the qualifications necessary for foreign publicity work.
    Captain Graham: Does the Minister not think that where officers have actually been living abroad in those countries, and have acquired special qualifications at the Government's expense, those special qualifications might very well be taken advantage of for the benefit of his Department, and is he aware that many officers of that type are available to him at the moment and are not actually employed at all?
    Mr. Bracken: I answered the Question of the hon. and gallant Member. In reply to his Supplementary Question, in special cases we do ask the Army to release men, but does the hon. and gallant Member really believe that just because a man has been abroad that makes him a good propagandist?
    Viscountess Astor: Does the Minister believe that just because a man has never lived abroad that makes him a good propagandist?
    Mr. Bracken: There are certain people who, if they were sent abroad, would not be useful.

    NEAR EAST DEPARTMENT. B.B.C. (MR. HILLELSON).
    Captain Alan Grahamasked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the need to prevent further exacerbation of anti-Semitic feelings among the Arabs and in view of the complaints already received from Moslems both in the Near East and in this country, he will reconsider the advisability of the retention as the official in charge of the Near East Department of the British Broadcasting Corporation of Mr. Hillelson, a Jew of German origin?
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir. I cannot accept my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion. Mr. Hillelson was born in Germany, and educated at the University of Oxford. He became a British subject in 1908. He was a distinguished member of the Sudan Civil Service from 1911 to 1933. High tributes have been paid to his work in Sudan by a succession of Governors General, and, indeed, by all who worked with him. Mr. Hillelson later served for some time in the Foreign Office, and became a member of the staff of the

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    B.B.C. in 1937. I cannot believe that the House will accept for one moment my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that a man who has been a faithful public servant for 31 years should be removed from his appointment on the ground that he is a Jew of German origin. I should regard myself as being a most unworthy servant of this House were I to approach the B.B.C. to suggest to the Governors that they should absorb Hitler's loathsome anti-Semitic prejudices.
    Captain Graham: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has totally mistaken the purpose of my Question and my objection? I have no objection in the slightest to the character or attainments of the distinguished public servant whom he is so unnecessarily leaping to defend on those grounds. The objection is solely—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. McNeil.
    Captain Graham: On a point of Order. May I not be allowed to defend myself?
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member was giving information, not asking for it.

    SHIP'S DEPARTURE (PRESS RESTRICTIONS).
    Mr. McNeilasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that an employee of the British Broadcasting Corporation, Mr. Terence de Marney, obstructed accredited journalists in the performance of their duties on the occasion of the departure of a certain vessel from a Scottish port; whether he will make it clear that this employee had no authority from the British Broadcasting Corporation, or two Government Departments, for refusing normal facilities for interviews and photographs; and whether he will ask the British Broadcasting Corporation to take appropriate disciplinary action against the employee concerned?
    Mr. Bracken: I understand that no instructions were given for the refusal of normal facilities for interviews and photographs but that the officer concerned felt himself to be responsible for avoiding any publicity which might draw attention to the departure of the vessel. The strong protests which I have received on the matter have been conveyed to the B.B.C. and have been brought to the attention of the officer concerned.
    Mr. McNeil: While thanking the Minister for his assurance, may I ask him
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    whether he thinks that a photograph in an hotel lounge would draw attention to the departure of this vessel?
    Mr. Bracken: I should have thought myself that it would not.

    ARMY ABSENTEE (EMPLOYMENT).
    Sir Reginald Blairasked the Minister of Information whether he is aware that a certain man, aged 24, whose full name has been communicated privately by the hon. Member for Hendon, was found to be an absentee from the Army by the Wealdstone bench of justices; that this man has been recently employed by the Ministry on film propaganda work and also by the British Broadcasting Corporation as a broadcaster; whether he is still employed; and if such employment began before or after his name had been removed from the register of conscientious objectors by the tribunal?
    Mr. Bracken: This gentleman has never been employed by the Ministry of Information. I understand that more than a year ago he worked as an actor for a company engaged in the production of one of the many films in which the Ministry was interested. I am told that the B.B.C. has used him in a number of dramatic feature programmes.
    Sir R. Blair: Has he been working for the B.B.C.?
    Mr. Bracken: I have already told the hon. Member that he has worked as an actor in some of these dramatic programmes. I would point out that the B.B.C. employs something like 3,000 people per week who go to the radio.

    INTELLIGENCE AND PROPAGANDA, NEAR AND MIDDLE EAST.
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the fact that there is a supply of qualified British subjects available for propaganda, intelligence and broadcasting to the Near and Middle East, he will choose trained intelligence officers, with knowledge of the language and of the country concerned, in preference to persons with academic mind and outlook?
    Mr. Bracken: If my hon. Friend will supply me with the names of any qualified persons who he thinks might usefully be employed or re-employed in this field, I will certainly consider them.
    Sir W. Smithers: I will send the right hon. Gentleman the names of some qualified persons.

    ASTROLOGICAL PREDICTIONS.
    Mr. Keelingasked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that astrologers are predicting that Germany is on the verge of collapse; and whether he will stop astrological predictions about the war in order to counteract the risk that addicts of astrology will relax their efforts?
    Mr. Bracken: Astrologers seem to have the misfortune to be perpetually in conflict. And as no sensible person takes their predictions seriously, I cannot ask our overworked censors to meddle in their mysteries.
    Mr. Keeling: Has the Minister seen the recent statement in the "People" that, owing to the conjunction of the stars, no invasion of this country can ever take place, and is he aware that a great many people do treat such statements very seriously indeed and direct their actions accordingly?
    Mr. Bracken: Yes, but I must point out that some other papers' astrologists have probably said that England can be invaded. As Hitler is known to dabble in astrology, may it not be that certain articles are written for him?
    Mr. Lawson: Is there any reason why Hitler should have a monopoly of astrology?
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir.
    Mr. Shinwell: Is the Minister aware that one astrologer last Sunday predicted a Government crisis this month? Is there any truth in that?

    LETTER CENSORSHIP.
    Dr. Littleasked the Minister of Information why, after the correspondence of a member of His Majesty's Forces has been duly censored at headquarters, it is necessary to have it censored again by the civilian censorship; and whether he will issue instructions that all such correspondence is exempt from a second censorship which causes delay in delivery?
    Mr. Bracken: My hon. Friend must be referring to letters censored by an officer
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    in the senders' unit, some of which are subsequently re-examined by Service base censors. In some cases civilian examiners assist the base censors, but they do so on Service instructions. I will, therefore, bring my hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the Service Departments.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (POST OFFICE STAFF).
  Mr. Frankelasked the Postmaster-General to what extent the staff in the House of Commons post office has been reduced during the war; and whether, in any general revision of the staffs in post offices, it will be borne in mind that the post office in this House has to deal with exceptional circumstances and that the personal service rendered to Members cannot be assessed on the basis of units of work as applied to post offices in general?
  The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): Owing to the considerable decline in the volume of the work at the House of Commons post office since the beginning of the war, the staff has been reduced from 12 to 10. The exceptional nature of the work at the office has been, and will continue to be, taken into consideration in any review of the staffing position.
  Mr. Frankel: Is the Minister aware that, although he says that the work has declined, it has actually increased in many ways, because of the different places in which Members now live, and the necessity for forwarding letters? Will he see whether it is not a fact that the staff are, as I think, being overworked, and whether they are insufficient for the great work which they carry out for Members?
  Mr. Morrison: The total volume of work has declined a great deal, and the staff association concerned agreed at the time to this revision. I am always ready to receive any reasonable complaint of that character, but I have received none.

  NATIONAL GUILD OF TELEPHONISTS.
  Mr. Norman Bowerasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the National Guild of Telephonists, representing the female members of the Post

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  Office telephone staff, has been promised official recognition when 40 per cent. of the female telephonists are members of the Guild; that the members are prohibited from trying to increase the membership by canvassing and collecting subscriptions on official premises; and whether he will consider according to them the same privileges in these respects as are enjoyed by the male staff, so that they may be enabled to attain the membership necessary to qualify them for official recognition?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: The facilities to which the hon. Member refers are granted to all staff associations in the Post Office in respect of those grades which they are officially recognised as representing, but in fairness to other associations I am not prepared to grant them to an association in respect of a grade which it is not qualified to represent. The National Guild of Telephonists is officially recognised in respect of male telephonists, but not in respect of female telephonists, who are represented by another association and only a small proportion of whom are, I understand, members of the guild.

  RURAL POST OFFICES.
  Sir Percy Hurdasked the Postmaster-General how old age pensioners and recipients of billeting and Forces allowances are to collect their allowances if their rural post offices are closed, as is now proposed, and travel to the nearest remaining post office would, as in the case submitted to him, involve the 58 recipients in total omnibus fares of £2 18s. per week?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: I am glad to assure my hon. Friend that in the case submitted to me, namely, Lorton, near Cockermouth, the post office is being maintained.
  Sir P. Hurd: Is it not a fact that a number of these small rural post offices are being abolished, and that it is almost impossible sometimes for old age pensioners to travel to the nearest post office?
  Mr. Morrison: They are not being abolished; but in some rural districts, when a sub-postmaster resigns, it is found difficult to obtain a suitable person to
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  replace him. That difficulty exists in a greater degree in some of the rural places mentioned. There is no question of abolition; but, where a postmaster resigns, it is sometimes difficult to get a man to replace him.
  Viscountess Astor: Or a woman.
  Mr. Morrison: Or a woman.

  MADAGASCAR (BRITISH FORCES, COMMAND).
  Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Prime Minister who is in command of British air, naval and military Forces at Madagascar?
  The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): The local command of all naval, military and air Forces in the Diego Suarez area is vested in the Fortress Commander, Major-General Sturges, of the Royal Marines.
  Mr. Garro Jones: Is it quite clear that he exercises command over the naval, military, and air Forces, without reference to London in an emergency?
  Mr. Attlee: He is exercising command over all the Forces in his area, but naturally he comes under the general direction as I have described it in that area.
  Mr. Garro Jones: My right hon. Friend has not described it. What I want to know is whether this is an example of truly united command of the three arms of the Service?
  Mr. Attlee: Certainly.

  COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, MEDITERRANEAN.
  Mr. Garro Jonesasked the Prime Minister the relationship, or authority, of the Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, to the Commander-in-Chief, Malta?
  Mr. Attlee: The Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, controls the disposition of all His Majesty's ships in the Mediterranean. Those detailed by him to operate from Malta do so under the direction of Vice-Admiral, Malta, who is himself under the direction of the Commander-in-Chief,

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  Malta, General Lord Gort, for all purposes in connection with the defence of Malta.

  MALAYA AND SINGAPORE.
  Mr. Stokesasked the Prime Minister on what date the first offer was made by the Chinese Generalissimo to send Chinese troops to help in the defence of Malaya; and, if refused, why?
  Mr. Attlee: Discussions took place with the Chinese Government before the outbreak of war in the Far East, but it would not be in the public interest to discuss the details.
  Mr. Stokes: Why is it not in the public interest to say whether the Chinese Generalissimo offered to help or not? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there was a report in the "Daily Herald" on 12th January that it was being widely advertised in the Chinese papers that such an offer had been made and had been refused?
  Mr. Stokesasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that the demands for men and equipment sent home from Malaya and Singapore in the late summer and early autumn of 1941 were adequately met?
  Mr. Attlee: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister does not wish at present to add to the full statement on this subject which he made to the House on 27th January of this year.
  Mr. Stokes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Sir Keith Murdoch has reported that the demands sent home from Malaya were whittled down in Whitehall; and can he say whether those responsible for the whittling down are still holding office?
  Mr. Attlee: I am not prepared to accept those statements without further examination; and, as I have already said, my right hon. Friend is not able to add at this moment to what he has said.

  PERMANENT SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY.
  Mr. William Brownasked the Prime Minister whether the functions of the officer designated to succeed Sir Horace Wilson as Permanent Secretary to the
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  Treasury will be the same as those discharged by Sir Horace Wilson, or whether he will be relieved of responsibility for the organisation, recruitment, etc., of the public service?
  Mr. Attlee: I have nothing to add to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend on 14th May.
  Mr. Brown: Would the Deputy Prime Minister consider representations from the Civil Service unions as to the necessity, from an efficiency point of view, of adopting the course proposed in the Question?
  Mr. Attlee: Certainly.

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    FACTORY MANAGEMENT (COMPLAINTS).
    Mr. Neil Macleanasked the Minister of Supply how many cases he has had reported to him for action of employers or managers of factories engaged on essential war Work whose methods have led to a slowing-down of the war effort; how many prosecutions have been initiated, and with what results?
    The Minister of Supply (Sir Andrew Duncan): Complaints in respect of the management of factories have been received from time to time from various quarters. They are at once investigated and where necessary the management is changed or strengthened. No sufficient grounds for prosecution have been disclosed in these cases. In many cases change of management has been voluntarily effected as a result of our suggestions and in several cases we have for one reason or another put in authorised controllers.

    PAPER SUPPLIES (PUBLICATIONS).
    Mr. N. Macleanasked the Minister of Supply whether he has examined a pictorial publication, named "Rising Tide," issued by the Oxford Group, a copy of which has been given him by the hon. Member for Govan; whether, as it weighs 10 ounces and is printed on thick paper, he authorised the release of paper for this publication, which has no bearing on the war effort; and why the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society, Limited, Glasgow, was refused paper to print a symposium for the London Scottish Self-Government League, written by experts and dealing with planning for Scotland?
    Sir A. Duncan: I understand that "Rising Tide" was last reprinted in May, 1939, from stocks of paper acquired in 1937. With regard to the third part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson) on 29th April.
    Mr. Maclean: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that "Rising Tide" is still being circulated?
    Sir A. Duncan: It may be circulated, but the printing of it is as I have described.
    Sir P. Hurdasked the Minister of Supply how many foreign newspapers and periodicals are now published in this country; to what nationalities they belong; and whether, in view of the shortage of paper for British publications, he will arrange that paper for only one publication be allotted to each nationality?
    Sir A. Duncan: Sixty-three, covering 14 nationalities. They include daily, weekly or monthly journals of various types, with subject matter that could not suitably be incorporated in one publication for each nationality.
    Sir P. Hurd: Is it not possible to reduce this number, seeing how other papers are being inconvenienced for want of newsprint?
    Sir A. Duncan: We are examining the subject in association with the Minister of Information.

    FUEL AND LIGHT ECONOMY.
    Mr. Liddallasked the Minister of Supply what steps he has taken to see that proper economies have been effected in the consumption of light and fuel in all establishments under his control; and whether he will consider the appointment of a qualified officer to ensure that all such considerations are effectuated as time and opportunity permit?
    Sir A. Duncan: Instructions for securing economy in fuel, light and power were issued to Ministry of Supply establishments in October last, and heads of establishments were required to designate an officer to ensure their observance.
    Mr. Liddall: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that those instructions are being satisfactorily carried out?
    Sir A. Duncan: From the most recent report, it is clear that substantial economies have been effected.

    LAID-UP MOTOR-CARS (TYRES).
    Mr. Wootton-Daviesasked the Minister of Supply whether he can give an assurance that if tyres are removed from motor-cars in storage it will be possible to obtain service ones if the financial circumstances of the owner make it necessary to sell the motor-car and demonstrate its capabilities?
    Sir A. Duncan: The administrative difficulties which would arise from the requisitioning of tyres from laid-up vehicles are being examined, and the point made by my hon. Friend will be taken into account.

    RUBBER SALVAGE.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware of the difficulty in obtaining adequate insurance for stocks of scrap rubber, or machinery in close proximity to these stocks, as a result of which the scrap rubber salvage scheme is likely to be seriously hampered; and what steps he is taking to prevent this?
    Sir A. Duncan: I am not aware of any general difficulty of this kind. Arrangements have been made for periodical removals from waste rubber merchants, so as to keep stocks from becoming unduly large; and reclaimers need not hold stocks in excess of their normal requirements.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Supply what steps he proposes to take to ensure that local authorities follow the lead of the Birmingham Corporation, who are conducting a vigorous rubber salvage campaign; and whether he will press upon other local authorities throughout the country the urgent need to collaborate with those responsible for the rubber salvage scheme so that effective results may be achieved?
    Sir A. Duncan: The importance of rubber salvage has recently been impressed on local authorities. I feel sure that they will collaborate fully with all concerned in the effort to collect all available scrap rubber, though the precise methods adopted will vary with local circumstances. A national publicity campaign

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    on the subject has just been launched through the Ministry of Information.
    Sir P. Hannon: Would my right hon. Friend ask local authorities to follow the example of Birmingham in every other matter as well?

  SOAP RATIONING (MINERS).
  Mr. T. Smithasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is yet in a position to make a statement with regard to the soap ration to mineworkers employed at collieries where no pit-head baths exist?
  Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food when the extra ration of soap for miners without pit-head baths will be brought into operation?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): I hope that within the next two or three weeks such miners may be placed on the same footing in respect of soap supplies as the miners with pit-head baths.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    BRITISH RESTAURANTS, ABERTILLERY.
    Mr. Daggarasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that recently at Abertillery, a British Restaurant after the expenditure of £804 was opened; that the trustees of the estate, who are the lessors, informed the local authority on the 30th March, that they would require at the conclusion of the occupation of the premises, presumably after the war, their restoration to their pre-occupation condition or compensation for the cost of such restoration; and whether, in view of the premises having been requisitioned on the instructions of the Ministry of Food, he proposes to take appropriate steps to prevent this?
    Major Lloyd George: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's Question is in the affirmative. The premises referred to were requisitioned with the approval of my Noble Friend in the exercise of powers under the Defence Regulations, and compensation, if any, will be payable in
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    accordance with the provisions of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939.

    EGGS.
    Sir J. Mellorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what estimated percentage of eggs, received by clearing stations in April and May, have reached, or will reach, the public in edible condition?
    Major Lloyd George: Apart from small losses through breakages, which are inevitable in the case of a fragile product such as eggs, I know of no reason why the whole of the eggs received by packing stations in April and May should not reach the public in edible condition.
    Sir J. Mellor: Are not some of these clearing stations storing eggs for a considerable time, and is it not their business to clear eggs and not to store them?
    Major Lloyd George: I have no information that the storing is for such a time as to have any effect on the eggs, but if my hon. Friend has anything in mind where a station is holding eggs longer than he thinks is necessary, I will certainly look into the matter.

    YEAST.
    Mr. Liddallasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is satisfied with the new arrangement for manufacturing yeast at Ipswich, whether the present quality is such that, as required by his Department, it will for seven days keep good in the possession of the merchant; and will he give the approximate number of tons of yeast that have become unfit for human consumption since the Order came into force?
    Major Lloyd George: I presume that my hon. Friend refers to complaints by distributors in Lincolnshire of the quality of yeast delivered to them, following the introduction of transport economies by the yeast manufacturers. Inquiries made by my' Department amongst bakers in the areas concerned have not confirmed complaints of the quality of the yeast supplies, and though losses occurred in the early stages of the scheme they appear to have been due to initial delays in transit, which have now been overcome. In the time available, I have been unable to

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    obtain particulars of the quantity of yeast lost, but I have no reason to suppose that it was considerable.
    Mr. Liddall: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend watch this matter very closely in the future?
    Major Lloyd George: Yes, Sir; it is being watched very carefully at the present time.

    NORTHERN IRELAND.
    Dr. Littleasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of all eventualities, he is satisfied that sufficient food to meet any demand made thereon is stored in Northern Ireland; and, if not, whether he will, at the earliest possible moment, have additional storage accommodation provided in Northern Ireland?
    Major Lloyd George: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative; the second part accordingly does not arise.
    Dr. Little: Will my right hon. and gallant Friend make a fresh survey of the food stored in Northern Ireland?
    Major Lloyd George: That would be a considerable thing to do, but we are already keeping in touch with the position day by day, and I can assure my hon. Friend that he need have no fear about the situation in Northern Ireland as far as food is concerned.

  IRON RAILINGS, KENSINGTON GARDENS.
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings what is the Ministry's intentions regarding the iron railings surrounding Kensington Gardens?
  Mr. Hicks: As I informed the hon. Member for Romford (Mr. Parker) on 28th April last, the retention of these railings is primarily considered necessary in the interests of public safety, owing to the considerable differences in the levels of the Gardens and of the public pavement.
  Mr. Tinker: Surely, if it is necessary for railings to be required for war purposes, privileges of this kind should not be allowed to stand in the way?
  Mr. Hicks: They will not be allowed to stand in the way if the difficulties can be disposed of.

  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (RECONSTRUCTION).
  Major-General Sir Alfred Knoxasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether, in deciding upon any scheme of reconstruction of the Palace of Westminster, he will take into consideration the lack of accommodation for Members of the Commons, both in the former Chamber and in the Library and Smoking Rooms, and the total absence of rooms for interviewing visitors; and whether he will consider the possibility of obtaining permission for the Commons to continue to use the Chamber at present occupied and make use of the site of the Commons' former Chamber to provide the additional accommodation required?
  Mr. Hicks: I am grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for his suggestions, which will be borne in mind when proposals for the reconstruction of the Palace of Westminster are under consideration. In regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given by the Prime Minister on 19th June, 1941, to the hon. and gallant Member for West Leeds (Major Adams).
  Mr. Bossom: Will my hon. Friend agree to appoint a small committee of Members of this House to make recommendations on this subject?
  Mr. Hicks: The proposal has been made before and duly noted.
  Mr. Bossom: Will my hon. Friend answer whether he will do so?
  Mr. Hicks: I cannot guarantee that now.
  Sir William Davison: Will the Minister give an assurance that no plans will be approved without the House having an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon them, as it is really awful that we cannot receive visitors in this House?
  Viscountess Astor: Is it at all likely that any of the Members of the present House will be here at the time of the rebuilding?

  NEW FACTORIES AND HOSTELS (LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Mr. William Brownasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he will ensure that, when his Department contemplates enterprises such as the establishing of factories or plants or hostels, which are likely to call on local councils for services such sewerage, lighting,' gas, electricity, etc., he will give instructions that such local authorities are to be consulted at an early "stage in the project?
  Mr. Hicks: This is the standing practice of my Department, but if the hon. Member has any particular case in mind where this procedure does not appear to have been followed, I will be pleased to have an investigation made.

  SHIPYARD MANAGEMENT (ALLEGATIONS).
  Mr. N. Macleanasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has investigated allegations publicly made against the management of a certain shipyard that they deliberately encouraged their workmen to waste time and take holidays to the detriment of the war effort; and, if not, will he do so with a view to punishing the guilty and publicly exonerating the innocent?
  The Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. George Hall): The allegations have been fully investigated by a local Committee of Inquiry, which included representatives of the firm, both management and men (including a shop steward), the Admiralty, the Ministry of Labour and the Electrical Trades Union. At this inquiry each of the allegations made was carefully examined, and where sufficient detailed information had been provided to enable the facts to be brought to light, it was found that the allegations were not borne out.
  Mr. Maclean: Since the allegation was made by an hon. Member of this House to whom I sent a copy of the Question I wished to put down, will steps be taken by the First Lord of the Admiralty to see that the shipyard on the Clyde against which these particular allegations were being made is fully exonerated as publicly as the attacks were made in the public Press?
  Mr. Hall: It is very difficult for my right hon. Friend to control any statement made by any hon. Member of this House, but he, with myself, would prefer that an opportunity should be given to examine allegations such as this before publicity is given to them, because I would point out that the great majority of the men who are employed in the shipbuilding and ship repairing yards are doing their utmost to give production, as the results already show, and they are very discouraged as a result of such a statement as has appeared in the Press.
  Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes: Is the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty aware, that the statement was made at a meeting of the large number of shipyard workers—about 1,000 were present—and that the man who made the statement in question offered to give evidence at an inquiry if one was held and declared that he was a participant in each of the incidents quoted? Does my hon. Friend consider that an inquiry without the presence of the man who made the charges is of any value or that such a sweeping denial as he has just made without hearing the evidence of the man is just or fair?
  Mr. Hall: I would point out that the name of the informant of my hon. and gallant Friend is not yet known to the Admiralty. It has not been disclosed by my hon. and gallant Friend, and until yesterday there was no indication that his name would be disclosed. The only suggestion that has been made for him in any way to support the allegations made was that he should either meet myself or the Controller of the Admiralty, and I at once accepted and offered to meet the person, whose name has not been disclosed to the Admiralty.
  Sir R. Keyes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the reason I gave him for not disclosing the name of the man at the time was that he might be interviewed privately so that he should not be victimised, and that I called attention to a similar case in which a man in another yard volunteered to give evidence of irregularities, but that after the inquiry was held he was victimised?
  Mr. Hall: It is true that my hon. and gallant Friend did mention this matter to me yesterday, and I promised that I would make inquiries into it. I want to

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  indicate to my hon. and gallant Friend and to the House that if there are allegations such as have been made by my hon. and gallant Friend in public and to which so much publicity has been given, and these allegations are first submitted to the Admiralty, the Admiralty will take every step to see that investigations are made and will deal with anyone who is alleged to do what is suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend in his Question.
  Mr. Maclean: On a point of Order. This Question has been on the Order Paper of this House for practically a fortnight, and why is it that only yesterday the Admiralty received any information or a request for information? I want to get the characters of thousands of men on the Clyde cleared of attacks made upon them over a fortnight ago.
  Mr. Speaker: This is not the time to go into that matter.
  Mr. Maclean: It is high time that you spent some time in silencing these men who are too big in the mouth.
  Sir R. Keyes: In view of the unsatisfactory answer of the Admiralty, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the question at an early opportunity.

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (SELECTION).
  Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Attorney-General whether he is in a position to communicate to the House what information has been received from the Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Glamorgan with regard to the composition of the magisterial benches in the Caerphilly higher and lower petty sessional divisions?
  Mr. Pearsonasked the Attorney-General whether he can now indicate the reply of the Lord-Lieutenant of Glamorganshire to the inquiry regarding the composition of the magisterial benches of those portions of Miskin Lower and Cowbridge petty sessional divisions which serve within the Pontypridd Parliamentary division?
  The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): My Noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor has been in communication
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  with the Lord-Lieutenant on this subject. It is the duty of the Advisory Committee, of which in Glamorgan a substantial number are members of the Labour party, to take care that the benches for the county should be open to men of every shade of political opinion. The Lord-Lieutenant states that the Advisory Committee, in submitting the list to the Lord Chancellor, has always endeavoured to keep the balance between parties, and my Noble Friend, from his examination of the lists submitted for Glamorgan, is satisfied that this principle is observed. As I pointed out, however, on the 13th May, Justice of the Peace are not appointed as representatives of any political party, and in particular it is not possible to maintain an exact balance of political opinion in every petty sessional division. The Advisory Committee, under the guidance of the Lord-Lieutenant, will, I have no doubt, bear in mind the statements made by the hon. Members for Caerphilly (Mr. Ness Edwards) and Pontypridd (Mr. Pearson) when next they come to consider the question of making recommendations to the Lord Chancellor.
  Mr. Ness Edwards: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in the lower petty sessional courts in Caerphilly only two out of nine magistrates represent the point of view expressed on this side of the House, and that in the higher courts the proportion is only nine out of 32? Further, is he aware that all the local authorities are composed of Labour councillors, that the county council is fully representative of the same party as this side of the House, yet the Lord-Lieutenant's Committee has gone out of its way to flout the democratically expressed opinion of the community there? Will he take some action?
  The Attorney-General: I am not aware of that. One of the main objects of the machinery was to ensure that the names were considered by a Committee on which all parties were represented. That is the case in Glamorgan, as in other parts of the country. No doubt, however, the Lord-Lieutenant and his Committee will bear in mind the statements made by the two hon. Members when they next come to consider the position.
  Sir Francis Fremantle: Is it not recognised that magistrates everywhere say

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  they do not want anything to do with political parties? Justice has nothing to do with politics.

  OLD AGE PENSIONS.
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the growing feeling among the electors over the position of old age pensioners; whether he has considered the resolution carried in Leigh at a mass meeting on Thursday, 14th May, 1942, asking for an increase of pension, the abolition of the means test and the removal of the stamp qualification, so that all aged people will be treated alike and with what result?
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): My right hon. Friend has considered the resolution to which my hon. Friend refers, and would refer him to the answer which he gave to him on Tuesday, 3rd March.
  Mr. Tinker: Do the Government intend to do something in this matter?
  Miss Ward: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. You have not called Questions 78 and 79.
  Mr. Speaker: I was informed that they had been withdrawn.
  Miss Ward: No, I asked that they should be transferred to the first of the next series of Sitting Days if they were not reached to-day.
  Mr. Speaker: The opportunity has passed now.
  Miss Ward: May I have them transferred to the next series of Sitting Days?

  SIR LINDSAY PARKINSON AND COMPANY.
  Major Braithwaite (by Private Notice)asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether any members of his staff are connected with the firm of Sir Lindsay Parkinson and Company, Limited, and, if so, whether he will give the names and the duties they perform?
  Mr. Buchanan: On a point of Order. Usually Private Notice Questions are urgent and of some public importance, and I would like to know on what grounds you, Sir, have allowed this Question? It seems to me that it does not come within the category of urgency.
  Mr. Speaker: At first sight I thought the same as the hon. Member, but I am informed that certain allegations have been made in respect of this firm, and the sooner they are dealt with the better.
  Mr. Levy: If slanderous allegations made by Members in this House are entirely without foundation in fact, does it not become a question of urgency with regard to the reputation of the firm or people attacked?
  Mr. Hicks: The answer to the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's Question is "No," and there never has been any member of the firm of Sir Lindsay Parkinson employed in my Ministry. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
  Major Braithwaite: In view of the serious allegations made yesterday by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. J. J. Davidson), can the hon. Gentleman take some public action to stop slanderous statements of this sort being made in the House which misrepresent people trying to do their duty to the nation at this time?
  Mr. Hicks: It is a matter for the hon. Member for Maryhill, not for me.
  Mr. Buchanan: I hope the Parliamentary Secretary does not intend to start interfering with the rights and privileges of Members of this House, which have been built up over a long period.
  Sir William Davison: Is it not a fact that Members should take responsibility for their statements?
  Mr. Buchanan: That is a matter for hon. Members. Nobody has a right to interfere with their privileges.
  Mr. McKinlay: Was the hon. Member for Maryhill notified of this Question, which is being smuggled in by the back door?
  Mr. Speaker: These Questions are submitted to me before they are put on the Order Paper. I do not know anything about them coming in by a back door.
  Mr. McKinlay: I am sorry, Sir.
  Mr. Buchanan: The hon. Member for Maryhill has been subject to criticism, as implied in the Question. We are asking whether the ordinary courtesies were shown to him by notification that this Question was being raised to-day.
  Major Braithwaite: I have tried all through the House and through the Labour Whips' Office to find the hon. Member for Maryhill. He is not in his place in the House, and I had to ask the Question as a matter of urgency.

MILK POLICY.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): The White Paper on the Government's milk policy will be available in the Vote Office to-day. With the permission of the House, I would like to make a short explanatory statement on this subject now.
It is essential to effect maximum economies in the man-power and transport used in milk distribution. To meet these requirements and to ensure that milk will be available to meet the requirements of the National Milk Scheme certain changes in the marketing of milk have been decided upon. All contracts between individual producers and purchasers of milk will be terminated on the 30th September, 1942. Thereafter the Milk Marketing Board will purchase milk from producers and the Ministry of Food will purchase the milk from the Board for simultaneous resale to distributors and manufacturers. Measures will be taken to rationalise the collection and transport of milk in order to eliminate overlapping collections and cross-hauls. A new price structure to meet the costs of distribution is being prepared on the basis of a recent costings investigation. A scheme for testing the keeping quality of milk will be introduced forthwith.
Plans are also being made for the rationalisation of retail distribution. All dairymen serving urban localities with a population of over 10,000 will be constituted into war-time associations which will prepare schemes of rationalisation suited
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to local requirements. On condition that such schemes are prepared my Department will arrange that, except in special individual cases, consumers in the localities concerned shall no longer have the right to transfer their registration for milk to another dairyman. Where distributors themselves fail to produce a scheme the Ministry of Food will itself introduce its own scheme after considering local circumstances. The White Paper has been prepared after full consultation with all sections of the milk industry, and I am glad to be able to say that the principles of the scheme have been, accepted by all parties.
Brigadier-General Clifton Brown: Does this mean that the Milk Marketing Board will make contracts with the producers in future, or will they still allow the producers to make contracts themselves, subject to the approval of the Milk Marketing Board?
Major Lloyd George: All contracts which hitherto have been between individual distributors and producers will come to an end on 30th September.
Mr. A. Edwards: Will this affect the scheme operating on the North-East coast, where milk is daily transported from Newcastle to Middlesbrough, although there is a surplus in Middlesbrough? Will this do away with that silly scheme?
Major Lloyd George: The movement of milk, which is of greater urgency in periods of shortage, will be entirely under the control of the Ministry, and it will be moved in accordance with the requirements of the various districts.
Dr. Edith Summerskill: In view of this new scheme of Government control of the milk industry, is the Minister going to insist that the milk shall be pasteurised, or at least reach a standard purity?
Major Lloyd George: If the hon. Lady will look at the White Paper, she will see what we are proposing to do.
Mr. Leach: Will the Minister tell us how pasteurisation cleanses milk?

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  WAR DAMAGE (AMENDMENT) [MONEY.]
  Resolution reported,
  "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the War Damage Act, 1941, and Part II and section sixteen of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—
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  (a) any increase in the sums authorised to be paid out of such moneys by section fifty-four, fifty-five or ninety-one of the said Act of 1941 attributable to the extension by the said Act of the present Session of the risk period mentioned in the said Act of 1941 or to any amendment, as from any date, by the said Act of the present Session of the said Act of 1941; and

  (b) any increase in the sums authorised to be paid out of such moneys or out of the Consolidated Fund by the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, attributable to any amendment, as from any date, of that Act by the said Act of the present Session."

  Resolution agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS [30TH APRIL].
  Resolution reported,
  WAYS AND MEANS [30TH APRIL].

    WAR DAMAGE AMENDMENT.
    "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the War Damage Act, 1941, and Part II and Section sixteen of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, it is expedient to authorise—

    (a) the payment into the Exchequer of any additional sums received by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or the Board of Trade by reason of the extension by the said Act of the present Session of the risk period mentioned in the said Act of 1941, or of any amendment, as from any date, by the said Act of the present Session of the said Act of 1941;

    (b) any such increase in the money that may be raised and the securities that may be created under Section seventeen of the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939, as may be attributable to any amendment of that Act, as from any date, by the said Act of the present Session."

    Resolution agreed to.

  WAR DAMAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  WAR DAMAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of risk period.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Sir Robert Tasker: This Clause goes to the root of the whole Bill, which affects very large sections of the community, and as you, Sir Dennis, have not called the Amendment which I have on the Order Paper—in page 1, line 14, to leave out "Treasury" and to insert "Commission"—I want to ask you whether there will be any opportunity of discussing the matter raised by this Amendment for the purpose of rectifying the obvious errors and mistakes that have arisen out of the original Act.
    The Chairman: The hon. Gentleman has asked me a question which can be very simply answered. The Question before the Committee is, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I have not quite followed what the hon. Gentleman has said, or how the matter he has in mind would be covered by his Amendment, but he is quite entitled to discuss the Clause on the Question which is now before the Committee.
    Sir R. Tasker: In this Clause there is a reference to the repeal of certain things in the original Act, and I am seeking to bring to the notice of the Committee the desirability of repealing other Sections of the original Act. I want to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that the original intentions of the House have not been effected. What I seek to do is to make the Measure a workable one. As it stands at present—
    The Chairman: It is a good thing that I did not select the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, because I am sure that what he is saying on those lines would be out of Order on the Amendment.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Punishment for giving false information.)
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): I beg to move, in page 2, line 28, after "Act," to insert "or".
    This Amendment and the following Amendment are of a drafting nature. As the Clause stands, it refers to "payment in respect of war damage" in relation to payments under the War Risks Insurance Act, 1939. In fact, the phrase used in the Act is "damage arising from King's enemy risks," and not "war damage". It is to make this correction that I move the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 2, line 29, after "thereof," insert:
    "or in respect of damage arising from King's enemy risks."
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    Sir R. Tasker: May I ask my right hon. Friend the Chancellor what is the difference between Clause 3 of this Bill and Section 3 of the original Act?
    Sir K. Wood: I do not think one can really compare Clause 3 in one Bill with Clause 3 in another.
    Sir R. Tasker: I would point out that the two are identical.
    Sir K. Wood: I will look into the matter.
    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Postponement of laying before Parliament of statements of payments and receipts, etc.)
    Mr. Garro Jones: I beg to move, in page 3, line 21, after "copies", to insert:
    "in so far as they relate to payments and receipts under Part II of the principal Act".
    There has been a fair amount of support for this Amendment, which stands in my name and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), and since the Government have not expressed a final opinion on their attitude in regard to it, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give his favourable consideration to the proposal which we make and which I shall briefly explain to the Committee. If Clause 4 were to pass as it stands, the Treasury would have power to withhold, on security grounds, publication of the figures showing payments and receipts under the three schemes set out in Parts I and II of the principal Act. The Amendment will not challenge the desirability of withholding publication of the figures under the business and private chattels schemes, but would seek to leave intact the obligation of the Treasury to publish the figures under the real property scheme in Part I, which, of course, deals only with two classes of hereditaments, namely, buildings and land other than buildings. May I in passing explain why we have not proposed that the obligation to publish figures in respect of the other two schemes should remain? In regard to the private chattels scheme, we think we can trust the Treasury not to give a certificate that it would be contrary to the interests of national defence to publish these figures. It would indicate a very odd view of

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    national security to give a certificate that it would be useful to the enemy to know how much furniture and so on had been destroyed 12 months ago in air raids on our cities. With regard to the business scheme, we make no proposal for insisting on publicity for the figures, because we think in that case there might be something to be said for concealing from the enemy the amount of damage he has done to goods covered by that scheme.
    In the case of real property, however, different considerations apply. I think the arguments for secrecy are far less cogent in that case, and the arguments for publication—unless the right hon. Gentleman has something to say upon it which he has not yet said—are almost conclusive. I propose to recapitulate them briefly to the Committee. First, the figures need not be published until the November following the end of the financial year in which the damage occurred. That provides a minimum interim period of six or seven months before the figures would be published, but that is not the period which will probably elapse before publication. The period which will possibly elapse between the time of the damage and the time of publication will be greater. First, the damage has to be done; then the claim has to be made; then the claim has to be considered and, finally, the payment has to be made. So, in practice these figures will not be published before the passing of from ten to twelve or even fourteen months in certain cases—according to my information on the time occupied in getting these claims through—after the occurrence of the damage.
    Even when these figures are published, they will not distinguish between damage done to military and to non-military objectives. We know that the properties affected by the scheme number about 13,000,000, and according to the Treasury estimate they are worth between £6,000,000,000 and £8,000,000,000. This estimate covers the value of buildings alone. Let the Committee reflect on what a small proportion of that total value is likely to be damaged by enemy action at all, according to the information which we already possess, given to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. How can it be useful to the enemy to know that twelve months ago such a small proportion of the total value of the property has been
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    damaged or destroyed when, in the interim, practically the whole of that damage in the case of military properties, will certainly have been repaired? Therefore I submit with some confidence that, on reflection, the Treasury should not persist in maintaining their right to keep that information secret.
    I should like now to say something about the publication of these figures, and I propose to ask for a little more even than I have asked for in the terms of the Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman after discussion should see his way to accept this Amendment, I would ask him to undertake also to publish the difference between the damage done to agricultural property and that done to non-agricultural property. There is a considerable feeling among the agricultural community that, although their contribution is lower in relation to the value of their property, it is still too high in relation to the risks involved. There seems to be no reason why, for example, the owner of a farm should contribute in respect of damage done in a town any more than that the mortgagee of a town property should equally share the losses of the mortgagor, a principle which the right hon. Gentleman has declined so far to accept. While we do not ignore the fact that the global figure would give the enemy some rough idea, as a matter of interest, of the damage done, it could be of no conceivable military usefulness to him. Furthermore, even if he does receive the figure, I am certain it will not be in accordance with his own.
    What are the arguments in favour of the publication of the figures in relation to the scheme under Part I? The principal argument is that the obligation to publish is a Section in the principal Act which had a large influence in inducing those affected by the Act to accept it without much greater opposition at the time. Certainly, in this House, on the Second Reading of the Measure, it was looked upon as being almost in the nature of a promise. At any rate it was certainly a collateral term of the agreement, as it were, between the House and the right hon. Gentleman to give the Measure a Second Reading in face of the doubts which a great many hon. Members felt at that time as to its principles. While, as I said on Second Reading, I do not put this on a moral plane at all, for it is purely a question of expediency, I do think the Chancellor ought

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    to consider whether it is right on such small grounds, to fail to implement a provision which played its part in securing the Second Reading of the Measure.
    Moreover, if the figures are published, they will go far to allay the widespread feeling—I am not saying whether it is justified or not—that the amount of contribution is not in fact warranted by the risks. Everybody will understand that a fund of this kind must have a substantial reserve. Although it is not for me to speak for property owners, I feel that the small property-owners—I hope the right hon. Gentleman is following me; he is exhibiting certain signs of mystification about what I am saying but it is quite plain. I hope, I say, that small property-owners will be placed in a position to judge whether the amount of their premiums is in fair relation to the risks run. Unless the matter is to be surrounded with mystery that can only be done by publication of these figures. I hope the right hon. Gentleman understands that argument.
    In conclusion, may I say that my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw and I would be the last persons to propose this Amendment if we thought it would be of the slightest utility to the enemy if it were passed. Even so great an authority as the Prime Minister has stated that the plea of public interest and public security should be sparingly invoked, but we are finding that it is being increasingly invoked; if it is to be extended from the strategical and tactical spheres to cover questions more distantly removed, such as the question we are now discussing, then I think the plea of public interest is being strained and may be brought into such discredit that, when it is really necessary to plead it, it will not be accepted without challenge as it ought to be.
    Mr. Bellenger: I am sure that the Committee will be comforted by my opening remarks when I say that I do not intend to delay them very long on this issue. I say that because I have an idea that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has, on due consideration, seen the force of the potent arguments put forward on Second Reading. I should like to remind the Committee that in the previous Act it is very little which the Chancellor is bound to disclose. In Clause 56 of the principal Act all the Treasury shall do in relation to each financial year is to cause to be prepared
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    a statement of payments made by the Commission and sums recovered by the Commissioners. In other words, all they have to do is to present a cash statement, and that cash statement will not represent the total amount of damage done in the financial year and will not show that the total payment for whatever damage has been done has been made. I suggest, therefore, that we are not asking for very much.
    Do not let us get a false idea of the meaning of property owners in relation to this Bill. Property owners mean the homes and houses of the people, whoever they are and whatever their relations may be to their homes, whether they are tenants or owners. These people are being asked to pay a special tax in order to enable them at some time or other, either during the war or after, to obtain compensation for acts done by the King's enemies, and I think the Committee will agree that they should have some rendering of the accounts as soon as possible. Obviously, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) has said, if the information to be disclosed under the principal Act was such as to give valuable information to the enemy, we should not ask for it. What we do say is that, when the Government are imposing a tax of 2s. in the £ per annum on the assessable value of property, which is a very considerable amount to small and large householders alike, they ought to know something about how their money is being spent, and whether the 2s. in the £ is excessive or not. As the war goes on they may be asked to pay more than 2s. in the £, and I do not think the Government can justify such an application without saying, "Here is the account of what we have received and what we have spent." I therefore support the Amendment which has been so ably moved.
    Sir K. Wood: My hon. Friend the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) have put forward their case, as they always do, with clearness and force. The Committee will remember that, when my hon. Friend raised this matter during the Second Reading Debate on the Bill, he rather challenged the whole of the Clause, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General gave various reasons, which I thought were powerful, in regard

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    to certain of its particulars. It is quite obvious, for instance, that no one would desire the total sums of marine losses to be given, and there are various matters in connection with the business scheme which obviously must be avoided if they give information to the enemy—replacement of damaged plant and machinery is an example. The House was assured during the Second Reading Debate that the Exchequer are not dealing with this matter from the point of view of keeping information from the Committee or from the people who make these contributions, but on the grounds which were then given. My hon. Friend asked me—and I did as he desired—to take up this matter with those responsible for security, and I think the Committee will agree with me when I say that they have a very difficult and onerous duty to perform—one wants to have a certain amount of sympathy for their difficult task. They have agreed with me that in the circumstances, particularly on the grounds which my hon. Friend put forward, and the fact that the particulars would not be published for some considerable time, and then for the most part would relate to what we call first-aid repairs, a good deal of the misapprehensions would disappear.
    The form of the Amendment which my hon. Friend has put forward is not quite as the Parliamentary draftsmen would desire. I think it would be more convenient from the point of view of the drafting of the Bill if my hon. Friend would allow me to give him the appropriate form in which he could move his Amendment on the Report stage, leaving the matter at present as it stands. On the question of the division of information, I will have the necessary consultations to see what it is possible to do. Neither I nor my friends acting with me in this matter have any desire to hide anything from the Committee. I am very anxious indeed to give all the information, and it was solely from the point of view of security that the Clause appeared as it did. Therefore, I suggest that my right hon. Friend does not press his Amendment at the moment, so that in the meantime the Parliamentary draftsmen can put the matter in its proper form. My hon. Friend will be able to move his Amendment during the Report stage, and in the interval I will make
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    inquiries to see how far it is possible to give the information he desires.
    Major Milner: When will the first account be published?
    Sir K. Wood: In September.
    Major Milner: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer give any indication now of the approximate state of affairs? It would be a great help in dealing with some of the points raised in the Bill.
    Sir K. Wood: I may be able to do that on one of the Amendments, but I do not think the information will be quite so satisfactory as some people would consider from the point of view of their advocacy of some alteration in the financial arrangements.
    Mr. Garro Jones: I should like to be allowed to thank my right hon. Friend for accepting the principle of the Amendment, and to say that I am certainly not sensitive in relation to the Parliamentary draftsmen. I shall be very happy to accept an Amendment effecting the same purpose as the Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper. On the question of the first date on which the figures will be published, the principal Act gives November, and my right hon. Friend now says September. Of course, we do not take exception to that.
    Sir K. Wood: It will probably be November.
    Sir Herbert Williams: Will the second Amendment be as easy to understand as the Amendment on the Order Paper?
    The Chairman: Do I understand that the hon. Member asks leave to withdraw his Amendment?
    Mr. Garro Jones: Yes, Sir Dennis.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clauses 5, 6 and 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Adjustments between borrower and lender in respect of property damaged by enemy action.)
    Where property which is the subject of a mortgage, floating charge or debenture for securing a loan or advance of money is damaged by enemy action, and is the subject

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    of claim against the War Damage Commission, then—

    (1) the rate of interest on such portion of the mortgage as is equal to the money due by the War Damage Commission shall be reduced or raised to two and a half per cent. per annum, being at the same rate as is paid by the Commission calculated from the time of the occurrence of the war damage;

    (2) the War Damage Commission shall, at the request of the borrower, pay—

    (a) such sums not greater than the amount of the claim to the lender and such payments so made shall be brought into account when final payment is made by the War Damage Commission, provided that such payments shall in no way relieve the owner of a property in respect of which a cost of works payment is made to expend the amount of such payment upon the property; or

    (b) pay the interest calculated in accordance with subsection (1) of this section to the lender until such time as the capital payment is paid by the War Damage Commission to the borrower, in which case the interest payable by the War Damage Commission shall be reduced by the amount so paid—[Lieutenant Butcher.]

    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Lieutenant Butcher: I beg to move, "That the. Clause be read a Second time."
    The Clause is designed to alter the relations between borrowers and lenders, but only in cases where the property which is the subject of the loan has been injured by enemy action and is the subject of a claim under the principal Act and the amending Bill. There is already some widespread feeling that, even in the case of property which is not damaged, the scales are unfairly weighted against the borrower, but where the property is damaged the position of the borrower is still more unfortunate. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer will realise the implications behind the matter, because the war has now continued for some time, damage has been sustained and payments' are due to borrowers. There is no sign of their receiving it at the moment, quite rightly, but what is happening at present? Take the case of property which' was damaged two years ago. Already the poor borrower has had to continue his payments at the rate of five per cent., knowing that he is only going to get from the War Damage Commission two and a half per cent., and the result is that sooner or later an increasing share of the equity of redemption is being transferred from the owner to the person who lent the
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    money on the security of the property. The purpose of the new Clause is to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of recognising the injustice of it and putting it right in whatever way he thinks suitable. I think the two ways of doing it are, first, to make the rate of interest payable on the mortgage equal, by reduction or increase, to the rate that the War Damage Commission will itself pay, and then to operate the second Sub-section of the Clause to give the War Damage Commission such sums as they think fit, not greater than the amount of the claim to the lender, so that he can pay off the mortgage or, alternatively, to leave things as they are but make interest payments from time to time so that the interest can be transferred by the borrower to the lender and the equity of redemption is not steadily being faded away during the period between the date of the damage and the date of the assessment and payment of the claim by the War Damage Commission.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: I think my hon. and gallant Friend has made the matter as clear as could possibly be done, and I have said what I had to say on the Second Reading. I only wish to say now that I approve of everything my hon. and gallant Friend has said, and I trust that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will consider accepting the new Clause.
    Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: I am in full agreement with the principle of equity which lies behind the proposed new Clause, and so stated in my Speech on the Second Reading of the original Bill. But there are two points which I should like to mention in connection with it. One is that, however equitable it is, I can see great difficulties in putting it into -practice. There is the general principle that the Government do not wish the money payable to the owner of a building in respect of a value payment to be available for present spending. Therefore, if the money was to be paid over, there would have to be an estoppel in some kind of way. The second point is that great difficulties arise where the damaged property is one of a parcel of properties which form the security for a mortgage debenture. The difficulty of apportioning the reduction of interest or the repayment of capital among the various holders of a debenture issue

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    secured on a whole number of properties will be extremely great. I mention those two out of many of the practical difficulties, without attacking the general equity of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman proposes.
    But there is another point which should be borne in mind. I should say, on examination of the proposed new Clause, that Sub-section (2, a) is sound in principle but Sub-section (1) and Sub-section (2, b) are relatively unsound. The Government admit in principle, at the time the damage occurs that they owe the money, because they allow interest to accrue at two and a half per cent. from that date. Therefore the owner of the property is in the position that he has lost his property and its earning power and has instead the promise of the Government to pay a certain amount at some future date and two and a half per cent. interest thereon meanwhile. Meanwhile he himself has to go on paying interest to the mortgagee at a higher rate. But that does not in itself alter the obligation of the borrower to the lender, and in case I should be accused of doing what Humpty-Dumpty did, which was to make a word mean exactly what he wanted, I have looked up the dictionaries to see exactly what a mortgage is. Funk and Wagnalls dictionary tells me that it is a conditional lien upon property as security for the payment of money. That is to say, a mortgagee is not an investor in the property but a lender of money for which he has a conditional lien on the property in case the money is not repaid. I found, moreover, in the Oxford Dictionary, that a mortgage is a conveyance of a property by a debtor to a creditor as security for a debt, with the proviso that it shall be re-conveyed on payment of the debt within a certain period. The implication from all this is that the Government should put the owner of the property, the debtor, in a position to repay his debt at once. That is why I think that Sub-section (2, a) is the sound part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion. I can see great difficulties arising if that were attempted, but there could be no warrant for interfering with the nature of the contract between the borrower and the lender. On the other hand, it is a well known principle of finance that difficulties should never be placed in the
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    way of a debtor discharging his debt. For that reason I would like my right hon. Friend to enable the debtor to pay off his debt and so save him from having to pay out interest at say 5 per cent. while receiving only at 2½ per cent.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Donald Somervell): This proposed new Clause, like many other proposals, raises two questions—first, whether it is workable in practice, and, second, whether it is right in principle. I shall suggest that it is unworkable in practice, and I shall give grounds for thinking that it is not right in principle. Sub-section (2, a), which is the whole starting point of the new Clause, assumes that you can ascertain the amount of the claim. That is precisely what you cannot do under this scheme. In the majority of cases the claim will be what is called a cost of works payment. Nobody can tell how much that will be until the works are done because it will depend on the cost at that time. Indeed, until you actually get to the stage when the work can be done it will be difficult to ascertain the exact amount of damage that is to be repaired. There is the initial difficulty in working this scheme. It also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) said, -cuts across to a considerable extent the general policy to which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and, I am sure, the Committee attach great importance, namely, that the sums to be paid under this scheme should be held up until they can be expended on the reconstruction and rebuilding for which the scheme is designed to assist financially as and when it is practicable. If these sums were put into the market by payments to lenders, it would release purchasing power in a way which I am sure the Committee feel would be undesirable. My hon. friends who moved the new Clause were good enough to say that they realised that the actual form of it might be unworkable. It goes rather deeper than that, however, in that it is difficult to think of a workable form that could embody this scheme.
    There is the more debatable question, whether it is right in principle. I suggest that it is not. Here is a man who has borrowed money on security. He may have used it for all sorts of purposes. He has agreed to pay, say, 4½ per cent. interest; money on mortgage is generally got at fairly cheap rates. It is a great

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    mistake to assume that all borrowers are poor and all lenders are rich. It is easy to find a rich borrower, either an individual or a company, and it is easy to find a poor lender. In fact, there are a great many small people who have invested their savings in mortgages. It has been a very popular form of investment for comparatively small sums of savings. One does not, therefore, get much help from that angle. Assume that the borrower is able to pay whatever is the agreed rate of interest, it seems to me right and proper and to his advantage that he should pay it. He has had the money to spend it on whatever he chooses to spend it on and there is the agreed rate. Why should he get out of his agreement because the security is damaged? He may have spent the money on business which may be earning money as well, although the security on which he borrowed it may have been damaged. There are, of course, hard cases where the property secured was being looked to by the borrower as the source from which he could obtain the money to pay his interest, but that raises an entirely different problem. That is a problem which the House has dealt with under other pieces of legislation, such as the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act and the War-time Liabilities Adjustment Act. These are Acts which deal with cases where there is inability to pay owing to war circumstances. If there is ability to pay I do not see any real force behind the principle of the new Clause.
    Whether hon. Members agree with that or not, the scheme suggested would, I think, for reasons I have given, be quite unworkable and would certainly cut across the policy, to which great importance is attached, of not putting this purchasing power on the market until it can be expended on what the House intended that it should be spent on. Let me take the case of the cost of works payment, which will apply in the majority of cases. This new Clause proposes that somebody shall make a calculation of what that payment shall be. That will be difficult to start with. Then it proposes that instead of, as under the Act, the payment being made when the work is done to the person who pays for the work, it shall be paid to a lender who will do what he likes with it. The borrower will still be left with the liability to repair the, house without having the money available from the
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    Commission to pay for the repairs. I really think that that is a scheme which the Committee would not consider introducing into the Bill.
    Sir Herbert Williams: The Attorney-General has made a strong case against the new Clause, but he has only made it on the basis that the injustices should continue. He has not faced that point. The real trouble with which we are faced is the continuous refusal of the Chancellor to agree to compensation for loss of rent. If that were done, these difficulties would vanish and three-quarters of the Amendments on the Order Paper would disappear. The cost would depend on the length of the war, but it would not be overwhelming. Nine-tenths of the difficulties between mortgagee and mortgagor would disappear, and that is the argument which will run through most of the Amendments we are to consider on this Bill. The other problem is the fraudulent 2½ per cent. which is being allowed. A man borrows at 4½ to 5 Per cent. I am certain that the Chancellor when he was practising advised many people to lend money on mortgage at that rate. When he has his property destroyed he is not to get his payment, but when the amount of the payment is calculated he is to get only 2½ per cent. simple interest. The Attorney-General himself said that many of these people are poor, but he is not proposing any device whereby the mortgagor will be in a position to pay these poor lenders except in those cases where everything is all right. Although I understand the reason why he asks the Committee to reject the new Clause, I would point out that he leaves the problem totally unsolved.
    Mr. Silverman: I do not support the new Clause, for I think that parts of it are not right in principle and that the whole of it might not be easily workable. What induces me to intervene in the discussion is my complete incapacity to understand the Attorney-General's argument. Here is a case where somebody is going to lose money by enemy action. He is to lose his security and his capacity to earn anything out of his security. Presumably he would not have borrowed money upon it unless he felt it was available to him to produce income out of which he could discharge his debt to those who lent him

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    the money. He loses that completely, and the legislation we are dealing with proceeds upon the principle that when a citizen has lost something by enemy action he shall not be left to bear the burden himself but that the burden shall be equitably shared among all those who run a like risk. The Government come along and say, "We will not pay at once. There are a variety of reasons why we should not pay at once, but we will pay interest until the time comes when we can liquidate the debt which we acknowledge, and that interest will be at the rate of 2½ per cent." He cannot pay 4½per cent. out of 2½ per cent., and if he is made to pay 4½ per cent. he has to find 2 per cent. himself.
    The Government say that he himself ought to pay and that the burden ought not to be shared by those who lent him the money, because of the claims of sanctity of contract. Because the man has entered into that contract, the Government say that he ought to pay while he has a penny in the world with which to pay, even if the difficulties which confront him arise from no fault of his own. If the Government believe in the sanctity of contracts to that extent, then they ought to pay. If they think that a contract is so sacrosanct that even enemy action does not invalidate it, then they ought so to frame their Measure as to put the man in possession of sufficient means with which to pay his debt. The Government say they will not. Surely, then, the mover of the' Motion is right to say that if there is a resultant loss which the Government will not meet, the borrower ought not to be left to bear the whole burden which ought to be shared with those who lent the money on the property and who therefore have an interest in that property. There may be something wrong with that principle, but if there is I cannot see it and nobody has troubled to explain it. It is all very well for an hon. Member to read definitions out of a dictionary. I do not know that they shed much light on the problem. The lender has acknowledged that the property is a security for his debt, and so he has an interest in that property. I do not think anything in the definitions which were read is inconsistent with that view, and if there is there must be something wrong with the
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    definitions. The reason the lender takes security is that he wants something beyond the personal covenant of the man to whom he has lent the money. Through no fault of either the lender or the borrower the security has disappeared. If the Government are not prepared to pay the loss I do not know why it should not be shared between the borrower and the lender, and I hope the Government will reconsider their attitude.
    Sir R. Tasker: I should like to remind the learned Attorney-General that this matter is going to affect millions of people; whether it is common to individuals or to groups or societies is neither here nor there. The position as I see it is that a man has borrowed money upon a house, and that is his security. As everybody who describes himself as a man of the world knows, there are hundreds of thousands of people who have acquired property with borrowed money and hope, from the profits they obtain through letting and sub-letting, to recoup themselves and to pay the lender. If this source of income has gone, and if it is equitable that at this time we should share burdens, it is only right and proper that both sides should share the loss, and that is what the new Clause seeks. There is one point in the Clause which I think the mover of it overlooked. It says that the War Damage Commission should pay. As things exist, the War Damage Commission pay nothing at all. A case is dealt with under rules and regulations made by the Treasury, and before the war Damage Commission can make a payment the matter has been referred to another Department altogether. The War Damage Commission cannot pay without consulting the Ministry of Works and Buildings. I hope that position will be considered by the hon. and gallant Member, because it is no good moving a new Clause which it is not possible to carry out, and the Committee ought to realise what is the real situation with regard to payments. I agree that eventually the cheque comes through the War Damage Commission, but it is not the act of the War Damage Commission.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: I should like to deal with one or two of the remarks which have been made in the course of the discussion. It has been suggested that if this new Clause were acted upon, a great

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    deal of money would be set loose, and that would have the effect of increasing the purchasing power of the country, which is the very thing we want to avoid. To meet that point we could easily move an amendment to this new Clause to provide that the money should be invested in War Loan, unless the claimant could show very good reason for requiring the immediate use of it; but we are not prepared to go as far as that to-day. Then my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely-Hutchinson) gave us a definition of a mortgage. I do not agree with that definition at all. That definition has grown with the growth of financial operations as we know them in the world today. The meaning he put upon it is quite different from the definition of the word mortgage as "dead money put out to gain."
    Mr. Hely-Hutchinson: It was not my meaning. I quoted somebody else.
    Dr. Thomas: I give my hon. Friend that point. He has looked to somebody else for his definition, and has gone to an American dictionary, and probably my argument has been thereby reinforced. The only point made by the Attorney-General was that because this money was originally lent at a high rate of interest, 4 or 5 per cent., it would be unfair to reduce the interest to 2½ per cent. But the Government's idea of the value of money at the present time is 2½ per cent. When they offer War Loans, they give 2½ per cent. interest, and on war damage payments they allow 2½ per cent. interest. That suggests to me that 2½ per cent. is what the Treasury consider money to be worth, and why anybody else, according to the Treasury, should get more I cannot see. The Attorney-General suggested that when the borrower took the loan he knew well what he was in for, but no borrower anticipated that his house would be knocked to bits by a German bomb. I certainly should not borrow money to buy or build a house if I thought it would be exposed in two or three years' time to enemy attack. Some people have drawn a comparison between this position and fire insurances on property, but fire insurance is not inherent in a mortgage but an extra covenant, and many people would not have paid war damage insurance unless the Government had made them pay.
    Lieutenant Butcher: In view of the statement made by the Attorney-General, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the new Clause. In so doing, I must say that I feel that if the Government had been a little more forthcoming on the question of allowing the rent or at least the amount of the Schedule A assessment to be payable, we could have saved many of these difficulties to which they have referred.
    Motion, and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

    FIRST SCHEDULE—(Amendments relating to the Principal Act generally.)
    Sir H. Williams: I beg to move, in page 6, line 31, at the end, to insert:
    "3. Cost of professional services to be included in value payments.
    The following words shall be added at the end of Sub-section (4) of Section three:—
    and in computing a value payment the reasonable charges of a valuer when employed in connection with the settlement of a claim shall be treated as part of a value payment.' "
    The case for this Amendment is fairly simple. If hon. Members will look at Section 3 of the principal Act, they will see, in Sub-section (3) thereof, the words:
    "In this part of this Act, the expression 'proper cost' means "—
    etc., and then:
    "and in computing the proper cost of any works the cost of the necessary employment of an architect, engineer, surveyor, land agent or other person in an advisory or supervisory capacity, in connection with the execution of the works, shall be treated as part of the cost of the works."
    When a cost of works payment is concerned, you want to bring in all those technical experts, but, as a general proposition, when it is a question of a value payment, the ordinary person who wants advice will get it from a valuer. It seems to me that a fee paid to the valuer is as much a part of the payment as a fee paid to the other professional persons mentioned in connection with the costs of works payment. The case seems to me of outstanding justice.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): My hon. Friend is quite entitled to refer back to Section 3 (3) of the principal Act, but I noticed when he read it out that he did not stress the really important words in the last line but one, which state that the payment in question is made in connection with the

    711
    execution of the works. That is, in fact, the only case in the Act in which power is given for a payment of that kind. That has nothing to do with the proposal in the Amendment, which is that payment should be made for professional advice in preferring a claim, which is quite another matter to the execution of works in respect of a cost of works payment. While payment to architect, engineer, surveyor or land agent might be a legitimate charge—and Parliament decided that it was—my hon. Friend is shifting his ground from those services definitely rendered, particularly of an architectural or semi-architectural kind. He is asking that a payment should be made for the cost of professional advice in preferring a claim.
    It is not, in fact, necessary to have professional advice at all in order to prefer a claim. The Commission's claim forms say that it is desirable that the claim should state the value which the claimant places upon his property, for the purpose of a value payment, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it quite clear in public pronouncements—indeed, it is stated on the note which is attached to the paragraph—that the claimant does not have to place a value on his property if he does not have a professional adviser. It is not necessary for him to put in a figure. The Commission will take its own view as to the value of the property and inform the claimant. If the claimant is dissatisfied, it will then be open to him to seek professional assistance, at his own charge, afterwards. It would be a mistake to open up this possibility. My hon. Friend must not overlook the fact that, if we conceded costs for charges in respect of making claims, as a great number of the payments have afterwards to be apportioned between the property interests, straight away you would have claims for the cost of professional advice from all the subsidiary people coming within the apportionment.
    While not wishing to cast any aspersions, I am certain that it is common knowledge that, in certain fields, all sorts of people turn up to try and make an honest penny out of propounding claims which may or may not be good ones. I am afraid we might easily find ourselves giving encouragement to a great number of people to enter what they might think a profitable field, if, at the end of it all,
    712
    the expenses were paid for by the State. A case does not seem to have been made out for professional advice at the stage of putting in the claim—which is all that the Amendment refers to—and as it has no relation to the other kind of expenditure which is involved in the cost-of-works payment for the execution of the works, I am sorry that I cannot accept the Amendment on behalf of my right hon. Friend.
    Sir H. Williams: I am disappointed with my right hon. and gallant Friend's statement. Let us have a look at it. A vast number of people do not know what is a fair value to put on their houses. All they know is that some years ago they bought them at a certain figure. It may be the only property they have, and they are not familiar with the fluctuations of property values. They are forced back to placing a value on their property in respect of 31st March, 1939. How are people to make that calculation? My right hon. and gallant Friend says it is all right, because the Commission will really do it. The Commission are to value all the properties; but their statutory duty is to be as mean as possible.
    Captain Crookshank: Where is that stated?
    Sir H. Williams: It is the implication. We know that every claim settler tries to beat down the claimants as far as possible. My right hon. and gallant Friend surely does not mean to suggest that the War Damage Commission are exempt from that very human attitude. My impression is that they are doing that duty very efficiently, to judge from the communications which reach me. When the War Damage Commission has been as mean as possible, claimants who are dissatisfied with that meanness have to hire a valuer, and at their own expense. I think the case I put was not too strong. What do we want? People have houses which are worth so much. They are being compensated, and they ought to receive the net amount of the cash value which they have lost. Instead of that, they are to have certain charges made against this cash value, for the essential professional advice which they will have to obtain.
    I do not know whether my right hon. and gallant Friend is a property owner. If so, I wonder whether he is putting in a claim for any property he might have

    713
    lost and, if so, whether he is doing so without advice. Is he not taking the precaution of putting in the value which he thinks is justified? For that purpose one has to pay fees, which are not very large in most cases. The attitude of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman seems unduly mean. He justifies it by saying that the State should not be called upon to pay the money, but the State has not put a single bob in this kitty yet, as I pointed out on the Second Reading of the Bill. We are dealing not with State money but with the £40,000,000 a year which these people are paying into the Fund. The State has not started yet, so my right hon. and gallant Friend must not defend his case on the ground that this is State money which we are sharing out. What we are proposing to share out more equitably is money belonging to the contributors. I do not think the Minister has sustained his case. It is a reasonable precaution, particularly for poorer people, that a modest sum should be spent on getting advice so as not to be treated with undue harshness by the Commission.
    Sir R. Tasker: I think that my right hon. and gallant Friend has taken a mistaken view of this matter. The property-owner cannot possibly know the value of his property, and he may not be helped in the matter by the price that was paid for it. He or his forefathers may have paid for it, but the value represented in the deed is no criterion of the values today. The only basis of calculation, if the property-owner is efficient enough to do it—which is very problematical—is to take his Schedule A assessment and make a series of calculations to arrive at the value of his house. The comparison of the professions mentioned in the original Act is not quite fair. It is true that the cost of works payment is defrayed on the basis of work done by the architect, engineer, etc., but those professional people have nothing whatever to do with the valuation of property. That is not the business of an architect, but of another type of professional man. If you admit that it is fair to pay a professional man for determining the cost of works payment, surely it is fair to pay the professional man who is employed to determine the value payment. I do not think it is right to say that the representative of the State if infallible or that you must willy-nilly accept whatever the valuation officer determines is the value of the
    714
    property. I therefore ask my right hon. and gallant Friend to reconsider the attitude he has taken up, which appears to me to be rather untenable.
    Mr. Silkin: I am very surprised that my right hon. and gallant Friend is not accepting this Amendment, because it seems to me to be eminently reasonable and one which brings it into line with the granting of a payment in connection with the cost of works. Surely the person who makes a claim to a value payment is quite as much in need of advice and assistance as the person who is entitled to a cost of work payment.
    Captain Crookshank: If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Act, he will see that the payment under Section 3 (3) has nothing to do with it. The claim to the cost of works payment is made up of the professional charges for carrying out the works. It has nothing to do with claiming.
    Mr. Silkin: I fully appreciate that, but my right hon. and gallant Friend might as well argue that it is not necessary to employ professional assistance in carrying out the works.
    Captain Crookshank: You would have an unusual building.
    Mr. Silkin: You might have an unusual building, but equally you will have an unusual settlement if you try to negotiate a settlement without the services of a valuer. Let me remind my right hon. and gallant Friend what the value payment is. It is defined in Section 3, Subsection (5) of the principal Act, and I would like to remind him of what the claimant has to do:
    "For the purpose of the last preceding Subsection, … "—
    That is, to determine the amount of depreciation of the property;
    "… the value of a hereditament in the state in which it was at any time shall be ascertained by reference to prices current at the 31st day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, …"
    The owner of the House has first of all to determine prices in relation to what they were in 1939. How does he know? He might never have had occasion to ascertain prices in 1939.
    "… and shall be taken to be the amount which the fee simple in the hereditament in that state might have been expected to realise on a sale thereof made in the open market on the said day with vacant possession,…"

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    How does he know unless he has been in the open market? He cannot know what he might have expected it to realise.
    "… subject to any restricted covenant, easement, quasi-easement or other right inuring for the benefit of other land, any public right of way, right of common, or other right inuring for the benefit of the public or of any section thereof, …"
    Those words are sufficient to frighten anybody who is not familiar with these things, but he has to value his land in relation to them all.
    "… and any restriction or liability imposed by or under an enactment, to which the hereditament was subject at that time, but free from any other encumbrance:''
    Is my right hon. and gallant Friend saying for a moment that he is going to value his land himself without requiring the services of a valuer, in the light of Section 3, Sub-section (5)? It seems to me that if an owner attempted to do so, he would be placing himself entirely in the hands of the War Damage Commission, and indeed I gather from the remarks of my right hon. and gallant Friend that that is really the position he is in. The owner need not even state what his claim is. The War Damage Commission will kindly tell him what his claim is, and then he is all right. He does not need any assistance, he does not need the services of a valuer. Let me ask my right hon. and gallant Friend to consider this position. Suppose the War Damage Commission offered, say, £750, which the owner thought was inadequate. Suppose the owner then went to a valuer, as my right hon. and gallant Friend suggests that he should, and as a result of the services of the valuer received an increased offer something like what he thought would be fair. Is it fair that he should have to bear the burden of the cost of the valuer's services? It is true that he is getting more than the War Damage Commission originally offered, but in a case like that, which I am sure will arise, it will have meant that the War Damage Commission's offer was inadequate and that it was necessary to employ a valuer to get a fair offer. I submit that in a case like that it would be only fair and proper that the War Damage Commission should pay the cost of the valuer's services.
    My right hon. and gallant Friend made some play with the fact that this might open the door to a horde of valuers, all
    716
    hungry for large fees to be paid out by the War Damage Commission. I am sure, however, that that is not the case, and that it is quite possible to lay down a scale of fees which would not be particularly attractive to valuers. Nobody is asking that they should be made rich by the War Damage Commission. It is quite possible to safeguard that point, and in my own personal experience there are not so many valuers about for the work which is available at the present time. I am finding it extremely difficult to get valuers to undertake work in the ordinary way, and I am sure my right hon. and gallant Friend knows that, and therefore there is no danger, in conceding this Amendment—it is a very small point—of opening the door to large numbers of valuers touting for the fees that would be available for them. I hope he will again give serious consideration to this Amendment, because in the main it will be the poor person, who has already suffered because his home has been destroyed, who will suffer under this provision. In any case he will not receive the value of his home, because the value payment is not a generous one, it is based on 1939 values, and surely he ought not to be out of pocket merely because he considers it necessary, in view of the complexity of the legislation, to secure reasonable assistance in making and settling his claim.
    Lieutenant Butcher: I hope that my right hon. and gallant Friend will give the Committee a rather more satisfactory answer than he has done already, because as the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) has just pointed out, there must be some real and proper valuation of these properties. Let me quote a case. Let us consider a street of houses in which all the houses are alike and were all purchased in the year 1937 for about £750. Four of them are utterly destroyed and are, accordingly, the subject of value payments. One owner wisely goes to a valuer and has an estimate made, based on that valuer's knowledge of the market price in 1939. Another man, knowing that such houses are selling now at about £800 or £900, puts in a claim for £900. The third owner says he will leave it to the War Damage Commission, while the fourth owner decides that the house could not be worth as much as it was in 1939 and puts in a claim for something less. All those four claims are received at the

    717
    office of the War Damage Commission. There is a great disparity, and somebody has to decide what is a fair price to pay for each of the four houses, which are to all intents and purposes identical. Surely it will be very much easier for the War Damage Commission—
    Captain Crookshank: The answer to that question is that presumably the War Damage Commission would take the advice of the district valuer on a point of that sort.
    Lieutenant Butcher: That is exactly what I am coming to. In come these estimates of value from two or three valuers acting on behalf of the claimants, who are not always willing to accept the valuations of the district valuer. Indeed, when cases are referred to arbitration under the Acquisition of Land Act, in many circumstances the arbitrators do not accept the valuation of the district valuer, but accept a figure much closer to the valuation of the valuer acting on behalf of the claimant, and award costs against the acquiring authority; but if you get four properties valued by various valuers of knowledge and experience and if all the values come within the same range, it is not very difficult for the district valuer to say that those properties have a mean value and to arrange some compensation. I do hope that my right hon. and gallant Friend will be a little more forthcoming here.
    Major Milner: It seems to me that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has entirely conceded the case in the Amendment by his intervention. He indicated quite clearly that in the case of any disparity or discrepancy in connection with the claim put forward, the War Damage Commission would go to the district valuer. At whose expense?
    Captain Crookshank: I thought the hon. and gallant Member was dealing with the case for similar houses where different values had been put upon them by the claimants. I understood him to say, How was anyone to know which was the right value for the lot?
    Major Milner: Suppose I am the owner of a house which is totally destroyed, and an hon. and learned Friend tells me to claim £750, while another hon. and learned Member tells me to claim £1,000, and yet another proposes another figure.
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    What am I to do? Go to a valuer, just as the War Damage Commission, if they receive half a dozen different values for similar houses, would go to the district valuer, presumably at the cost of the Fund. I think that my right hon. and gallant friend, in his intervention, has conceded the whole of the case in the Amendment. The simple case is surely, Will it be necessary in even a reasonable proportion of cases for the claimant to have professional advice? I submit that he has only to look at the Section read by my hon. Friend the Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin) to see clearly that it is impossible for any layman to calculate the proper measure of claim to be put forward, subject to the conditions set out in Sub-section (5). That is the simple question: Will it be necessary in a proportion of cases—I think probably in the whole of the cases—to have a valuer? My right hon. and gallant. Friend seemed to think that the Amendment referred only to the question as to whether a valuer should be employed in putting forward a claim in the first instance. The Amendment says quite clearly:
    "… in computing a value payment the reasonable charges of a valuer when employed in connection with the settlement of a claim …"
    That means the employment of a valuer at any stage of the matter, so to speak, not only in connection with the original putting forward of a claim, but when it comes to an offer from the War Damage Commission. Then the claimant may have to consult a valuer. In fact, if he is a wise man, he will consult a valuer. Just as it is said that a man who is his own lawyer is a fool, a man who is his own valuer would also be a fool. As the work is necessary and as certainly at present, whatever may be the position in the future, it is the case that the valuer would be paid by the claimant and not by the Government, I submit that the mover of the Amendment has made out his case, and my right hon. and gallant Friend ought to reconsider it.
    Sir H. Williams: I wonder whether my right hon. and gallant Friend would help the Committee again? He has said that the Commission are to have valuers. In other words, there are two parties to this claim; the person who is claiming as against the Commission will not be able to have his valuer's fees charged against the Fund, but the Commissioners will

    719
    charge their valuer s fees against the Fund or against the funds of the State if they use the district valuer, who is an employee of the State. If district valuers are to be called upon in these cases more district valuers will have to be appointed. In the one case there is to be a valuer paid for by State funds or by the funds of the Commission, while the ordinary

    Division No. 10.]

    AYES.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Gridley, Sir A. B.

    Selley, H. R

    Ammon, C. G.

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Silverman, S. S.

    Banfield, J. W.

    Hall, W. G. (Colne Valley)

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Barnes, A. J.

    Harvey, T. E.

    Smith, T. (Normanton)

    Beechman, N. A.

    Headlam, Lt.-Col. Sir C. M.

    Southby, Comdr. Sir A. R. J.

    Bellenger, F. J.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Stephen, C.

    Benson, G.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)

    Bower, Norman (Harrow)

    Hollins, J. H. (Silvertown)

    Tasker, Sir R. I.

    Bowles, F. G.

    Hughes, R. M.

    Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)

    Buchanan, G.

    Jewson, P. W.

    Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)

    Burke, W. A.

    Leslie, J. R.

    Thomas, Dr. W. S. Russell (S'th'm'tn)

    Butcher, Lieut. H. W.

    Lloyd, Major E. G. R. (Renfrew, E.)

    Thorne, W.

    Charleton, H. C.

    McNeil, H.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Daggar, G.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    White, Sir Dymoke (Fareham)

    Davison, Sir W. H.

    Mathers, G.

    White, H. (Derby, N. E.)

    Doland, G. F.

    Maxton, J.

    Young, Sir R. (Newton)

    Douglas, F. C. R.

    Mellor, Sir J. S. P.

    Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)

    Milner, Major J.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Foster, W.

    Oldfield, W. H

    Mr. A. Edwards and

    Gallacher, W.

    Reakes, G. L. (Wallasey)

    Sir Herbert Williams.

    Gammans, Capt. L. D.

    Savory, Professor D. L.

    NOES.

    Adamson, W. M. (Cannock)

    Hannah, I. C.

    Profumo, Captain J. D.

    Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)

    Harris, Rt. Hon. Sir P. A.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    Assheton, R.

    Heilgers, Major F. F. A.

    Raikes, Flight-Lieut. H. V. A. M.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P.

    Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.

    Reed, A. C. (Exeter)

    Beattie, F.

    Henderson, J. J. Craik (Leeds, N. E.)

    Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)

    Beit, Sir A. L.

    Heneage, Lt.-Col. A. P.

    Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)

    Blair, Sir R.

    Hewlett, T. H.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Boulton, W. W.

    Hicks, E. G.

    Rickards, G. W.

    Broadbridge, Sir G. T.

    Hill, Prof. A. V.

    Roberts, W.

    Brocklebank, Sir C. E. R.

    Hinchingbrooke, Viscount

    Robertson, D. (Streatham)

    Brooke, H.

    Hopkinson, A.

    Robertson, Rt. Hn. Sir M. A. (M'ham)

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Howitt, Dr. A. B.

    Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Ropner, Col. L.

    Browne, Captain A. C. (Belfast W.)

    Isaacs, G. A.

    Rowlands, G.

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    James, Wing-Comdr. A. W. H.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Cary, R. A.

    John, W.

    Salt, E. W.

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k Newington)

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)

    Lawson, J. J.

    Scott, Donald (Wansbeck)

    Chorlton, A. E. L.

    Leach, W.

    Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)

    Cluse, W. S.

    Lindsay, K. M.

    Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir D. B.

    Cobb, Captain E. C.

    Little, Sir E. Graham- (London Univ.)

    Spearman, A. C. M.

    Collindridge, F.

    Little, Dr. J. (Down)

    Storey, S.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Mabane, W.

    Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)

    Cripps, Rt. Hon. Sir Stafford

    MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.

    Strickland, Capt. W. F.

    Crooke, Sir J. Smedley

    McCorquodale, Malcolm S.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Macdonald, G. (Ince)

    Studholme, Captain H. G.

    Culverwall, C. T.

    MacDonald, Sir Murdech (Inverness)

    Sueter, Roar-Admiral Sir M. F.

    Davidson, Viscountess (H'm'I H'met'd)

    Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)

    Summers, G. S.

    Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)

    McEntes, V. La T.

    Sutcliffe, H.

    Digby, Capt. K. S. D. W.

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)

    Donner, Squadron-Leader P. W.

    Makins, Brig-Gen. Sir E.

    Tinker, J. J.

    Dugdale, Major T. L. (Richmond)

    Marlowe, Major A.

    Titchfield, Lt.-Col. Marquess of

    Edmendson, Major Sir J.

    Mentague, F.

    Tomlinson, G.

    Edwards, Rt. Hon. Sir C. (Bedwellty)

    Morgan, R. H. (Stourbridge)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Comdr. R. L.

    Elliot, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Universities)

    Viant, S. P.

    Ellis, Sir G.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Walkden, E. (Doncaster)

    Emery, J. F.

    Mort, D. L.

    Ward, Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Evans, Colonel A. (Cardiff, S.)

    Naylor, T. E.

    Waterhouse, Capt. C.

    Fyfe, Major Sir D. P. M.

    Nicholson, Captain G. (Farnham)

    Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

    Gibson, Sir C. G.

    Nunn, W.

    Williams, C. (Torquay)

    Green, W. H. (Deptford)

    Orr-Ewing, I. L.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir K. (W'lwich, W.)

    Griffiths, G. A. (Hemaworth)

    Paling, W.

    Wootton-Davies, J. H.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Guest, Dr. L. Haden (Islington, N.)

    Petherick, Major M.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Gunsten, Capt. Sir D. W.

    Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assbeton

    Mr. A. Young and Mr. Pym.

    person who suffers injury will not be able to have that advantage. I think that the Front Bench should give us some further word than they have yet vouchsafed.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 58; Noes, 132.
    Major Milner: I beg to move, in page 6, line 31, at the end, to insert:
    "3. Compensation to owners of chief rents.
    In the definition of proprietary interest in Section ninety-five, after paragraph (a) there shall be inserted the following paragraph:
    ' (b) a rent charge issuing out of or charged upon that land or any part thereof, being cither perpetual or for a term of years absolute; and.' "
    The object of this Amendment is to extend the definition of the term "proprietary interest" in Section 95 of the original Act, to include perpetual rent charges, or chief rents, as they are popularly termed in the North of England, where they are principally prevalent. There is rather an anomaly in the principal Act, through the omission of this particular case of freehold. Persons who hold freehold or perpetual rent charges—or chief rents, as I will call them for shortness—have no rights whatever of sharing in any compensation for damage, whereas the owners of ground rents, even if the lease is for 999 years, come under the definition of persons having proprietary interests, and are protected by the Act, and receive the appropriate portion of the compensation, as provided in Section 9 of the original Act.
    The matter is a little technical, but I will endeavour to explain it in simple terms. Assume that there is an acre of land, and a builder desires to purchase it for erecting eight or 12 houses. The land is worth £400. The builder says, "Instead of paying that £400 in cash, I will pay you in perpetuity a rent of £20 a year "—which is 20 years' purchase. The transaction is carried through, and the builder then erects a number of houses on the land. The position then arises that purchasers of houses are desirous of minimising the amount they have to pay in cash. A purchaser may buy one or more houses partly in consideration of a rent charge and partly in consideration of cash. A second rent charge has then been created in favour of the builder. It exceeds the original site value of the land. I am told that in Manchester, for example, where anything from two-thirds to three-quarters of the smaller properties, at any rate, are built on such terms, third charges and so on may be created. It quite often happens that a rent of £5 to £6 a year may be charged on a single house. At present, under the Act, the owners of those rent charges will receive no portion of the
    722
    compensation. I will give an instance in a moment of a number of houses erected on land subject to rent charges of that character; while the owners of the buildings will receive compensation, there is no provision in the Act at present for any portion of it, however small, to be paid to the owner of the rent charges.
    Such a rent charge as that which I am discussing ranks in priority to a mortgage on the property. These rent charges or chief rents are authorised under the Settled Lands Act as an investment of capital moneys and very large numbers of people in the parts where this particular tenure is prevalent have invested money in them. This is not merely a matter affecting wealthy owners of rent charges. There are a great number of quite small people who have invested small amounts in the purchase of land charges. Money charged upon land upon which houses and other buildings were erected would have been among the most secure forms of security it would be possible to obtain, but owing to the fact that war has come upon us, this particular form of security is peculiarly susceptible to damage and ought therefore to be included under the provisions which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has put in the principal Act.
    It might be helpful if I gave a particular instance which has occurred. There has not been much publicity with regard to the omission of this particular form of freehold property, either in the Press or elsewhere, the reason being that perhaps not a very great deal of damage has been done and that, except in cases of hardship, payment is not made in respect of compensation under the War Damage Act until after the war. It will only be after the war in a great many cases, therefore, that owners of these securities who have put in claims will find that they are not to be entitled to anything unless the right hon. Gentleman, as I hope he will, thinks it right to amend the Act. I will now give a specific instance of a claim which has actually been put in. "A," a landowner, sold to "B," who is a builder, a plot of land containing 1,731 square yards, situated at Moss Side in Manchester. The builder erected 15 dwelling-houses on the land, having entered into a covenant to do so. The consideration for the sale of the land from owner "A" to builder "B" was that builder "B" should agree to pay a freehold or chief

    723
    rent of £19 a year in perpetuity. The builder was prepared to do that instead of paying a lump sum for the land. The builder "B" created a second rent, payable on the same plot of land with the 15 houses erected upon it. This amounted to £41 5s. The right to receive that payment was sold to "C," who covenanted to pay the original rent charge of £19, and later that second rent was purchased as an investment by the trustees of a small estate for £478 7s. 6d. On the night of 1st October, 1940, these 15 houses were totally destroyed as a result of enemy action, and the person responsible for the payment of the rent of £41 5s. was killed. No payment of either the head rent of £19 or the second rent of £41 5s. has been made, and no provision whatever has been made by way of legislation for compensation. Compensation will duly be paid, no doubt, to the owner of the 15 houses, but no compensation will be paid in favour of the holder of the freehold rent charge, nor is there any obligation upon the owner of the houses to pay any proportion of what he receives to the owner of the freehold rent. The Committee will appreciate that the mortgagees would, if the houses were mortgaged, have a claim under the Act to receive the repayment of their mortgage and any unpaid interest, but the owner of the perpetual rent charge, who is entitled to rent in priority to the mortgagees, would not under the Act as at present drawn receive anything. The result would be that the site value would be worth very little or at the most no more than the original value put upon it of £19. If this proves to be the case and there is a depreciation in the investment, as clearly there must be, the trustees of the will who invested the £478 7s. 6d., producing a net income of something like £20 a year—the difference between £19 and £41 5s.—will receive no income and there will still be the burden on the second chief rent owner to pay the head rent of £19.
    Mr. Bellenger: I am trying to follow this very intricate example of my hon. and gallant Friend's. The holder of the improved ground rent has the right to serve conditional retention notice, whereupon if a value payment is made, his whole interest ceases, although in the meantime he ceases to pay ground rent. Would
    724
    my hon. and gallant Friend say whether in that case the holder of the chief rent would be entitled to receive the value compensation?
    Major Milner: The question put by my hon. Friend is a little intricate, but I think he is in error in saying that there is no disclaimer in this case. In the case of a perpetual rent charge there is no right of disclaimer. Under legislation passed by this House some time ago leaseholders have the right to disclaim in certain circumstances, but holders of perpetual rent charges, or those who are liable to pay them, have not, by reason of the fact that they are perpetual, any right to disclaim, and so my hon. Friend's question does not really arise. I submit that, whatever the reason be, the original Act, which the right hon. Gentleman desires to be inclusive and as fair and just as possible, does not include this particular class of freehold security. The anomaly is clear, and it is unjust that the owner of a 999 years' rent charge should receive compensation but that the owner of a perpetual rent charge should not. Therefore, in moving my Amendment, I hope that in this case, which only arises in connection with value payments where the owner of the perpetual rent charge can prove that his interest has depreciated by reason of war damage, shall be entitled, as the holder of a proprietary interest, to a share of the compensation awarded by the War Damage Commission.
    Mr. Edmund Harvey (Combined English Universities): I hope the Government will give favourable consideration to this Amendment, which has been explained with such skill by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner). I cannot help thinking that, owing to the fact that this system of chief rents is confined to some parts of Lancashire and the North, this problem has not been properly considered. However much we dislike the system of perpetual rents, it is not fair that the owner of a perpetual rent charge should be in a worse position than a mortgagee.
    Mr. Sutcliffe: The objects which we have in view in submitting this Amendment have been fully set out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner). The whole idea of the War Damage Act was

    725
    to mitigate hardship—to cause compensation to be paid in cases where hardship could be proved to exist as a result of enemy action. Cases of hardship will be numerous and serious for the class of people to whom this Amendment refers unless this question is dealt with. I can only think that it is because it is rather a local problem that it has not been included in the principal Act. The problem however is not confined to Manchester and Liverpool. Other towns in Lancashire, notably Rochdale, where the Law Society specially asked that the question should be taken up are involved. To some extent also this system of perpetual rent charges is spreading to the South of England; little by little it is beginning to creep in generally. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will, I hope, give his most earnest consideration to the very sincere request that we make to him to-day. The Council of the Law Society did bring the matter before the Lord Chancellor and many representations have been made by the Manchester Law Society to both the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Attorney-General. It is only fair and right that compensation should be shared by the owner of the land and the owner of the rent charge, if the owner of the rent charge can prove that the rent has depreciated through the destruction of the building. I cannot see that any difficulty will arise, because no claim can be made unless the owner of the rent charge is able to prove that the marketable value of his rent has depreciated. I think the position is amply safeguarded and I urge the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the strongest possible terms to accept this Amendment.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworth: I entirely agree with the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) who proposed this Amendment. It affects a considerable number of my constituents in Manchester. Perhaps there is no part of the Kingdom where the system of chief rent charges has obtained more than in South-West Lancashire. It will be a considerable shock to a number of chief rent holders to realise that they seem to have no security whatever under the principal Act as it is at present. Perpetual yearly rent charges, where the rent charge system is in vogue, are a favourite investment for trust funds, and this is particularly so in the county to which I have referred. Many wills and trust instruments
    726
    give direct authority for trust money to be placed in these as a form of investment. Moreover, such rent charges are authorised by law as an investment for capital moneys arising under the Settled Lands Act. The owner of a perpetual rent charge has a local interest in fee simple and for practical purposes, there should be little or no difference between perpetual rent charge and the freehold revision in respect of long leasehold ground rent. It is, therefore, inequitable that the latter should receive protection while the former has no protection whatsoever. For that reason I support the Amendment.
    Mr. Bellenger: In the South of England we would deal with this question in a different way. The freeholder mentioned by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) would have leased his land at head rent and the head lessor would have-leased his land at an improved ground rent. I understand that in the North of England the head lessor is really the man who holds the chief rent and the man who pays the £41 5s. improved rent is actually not holding a long lease at that ground rent but holding it in perpetuity subject to payment of that £41 5s. If that £41 5s. is to be paid to somebody, and there is a superior interest above him, I should have thought it would have been quite simple to have included this in the definition in Section 95 of the original Act, under which proprietary interest includes not only those holding fee simple in the land, but also any tenancy on that land other than a short tenancy. Surely the case stated by my hon. and gallant Friend of the man holding land in perpetuity at a rent comes under this definition of "any tenancy in land." There should not be any great difference in principle in this matter. It is only something in the drafting, which the Chancellor can put right.
    Sir K. Wood: I will give consideration to all that has been said by hon. Members on this matter to-day. I had the advantage of receiving a deputation introduced by the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner), who was accompanied by a number of Members. As he has indicated, the question wants examination, and I will consider what is to be done and how it shall be done. I know that the hon. and gallant Member put forward the Amendment mainly for the purpose of securing a discussion I,

    727
    also, wanted the Committee to hear hon. Members' views on this question and to have those views fully ventilated here. I suggest that the hon. and gallant Member has achieved his purpose in bringing the matter forward. I will examine the proposal sympathetically with a view to being able to bring something forward for the Report stage which will meet the case put by hon. Members.
    Major Milner: I am grateful to the Chancellor and I hope that the combination of Yorkshire and Lancashire will result in something being done. - May I say that there is no one who could give the Chancellor better advice on this matter that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, because he has practised with considerable success on the Northern Circuit, and no one knows more about this matter than he does. I am grateful to the Chancellor, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. Doland: I beg to move, in page 7, line 5, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) Interest at the rate of two and a-half per cent. per annum shall accrue on a value payment from the time of the occurrence of the war damage, and shall be payable in half-yearly instalments as and from the date of the ascertainment of the value payment, and Subsection (2) of Section eight of the principal Act is hereby amended accordingly."
    This Amendment is a simple one, but it deals with a matter which is serious for the people concerned. The proposal in the Amendment would enable those who are liable to do so, to continue the payment of various items of expenditure on property which is destroyed. It would assist many hundreds of persons—perhaps I might say thousands, although I have no desire to exaggerate—who have, through the loss of their property, lost their livelihood. If the Chancellor will consider the Amendment in the light of the arguments that I shall put before him, I feel that he will accept it on grounds of equity. Many of the arguments for my Amendment have been stated already by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Lieutenant Butcher), in moving a new Clause or the Order Paper in his name.
    With regard to the pre-payment of the 2½ per cent. interest, which is, after all,
    728
    money that is due to those persons who have paid their quota in connection with War Risks Insurance, I think it is not asking a great deal to suggest that they should be able to get that amount before the end of the war. The end of the war may not be this year, next year, or even the year after; it may be four or five years before the time comes for these payments to be made; to say that is not to suggest that it will take all that time for the war to end, but after the end of the war, many things will have to be done before this money is paid. Since this Amendment appeared on the Order Paper, there has been a great deal of comment on the matter in the Press. For instance, an eminent journal, the "Sunday Times," stated that two concessions might be made—
    "First, when a property is completely destroyed compensation consists of a value payment which will be forthcoming at some future date, together with the interest at 2½ per cent. accrued as from the date of the damage. The underlying idea is to hold up these payments until rebuilding is practicable after the war. There is a good case for releasing the interest payment at once. It would help the recipient to meet the cost of his new accommodation and to pay his mortgage interest. Two-and-a-half per cent. is so low a rate that it would only mitigate the income lost and would leave no margin available for general expenditure."
    One of the arguments against the payment of the interest before the end of the war is that it would cause unnecessary expenditure, and expenditure on things other than property reconstruction. I realise, moreover, that the Chancellor may say that in many cases it will not be known until the end of the war whether a cost-of-works or a value payment will be made, or even, if the latter, what will be the amount of the money due. If the Chancellor is not prepared to go as far as the Amendment suggests, I suggest that the payment might be limited to property which is entirely destroyed and in connection with which there is no question of a cost-of-works payment.
    Many of the persons whose property has been entirely destroyed are not rich people. They have to pay mortgage interest of 4½ per cent. or 5 per cent. perhaps. Even if the Chancellor stipulated that these half-yearly payments as suggested in the Amendment should go in payment of part of the mortgage interest, it would be of very considerable assistance to the people who have lost their property and their livelihood, and who are in many cases

    729
    in dire distress. The 2½ per cent. interest allowed on a value payment is not so much compensation for loss of income as a recognition that the State has borrowed money which is due to the claimant. Its purpose is to enable a person whose property has been entirely destroyed either to pay off some of his commitments or, preferably, to pay part of the mortgage money. I trust that the Chancellor will soften his heart on this matter. After all, the money belongs to the person whose property has been destroyed, and it is not equitable to hold up the payment of the money for perhaps four or five years.
    The other point which the Chancellor may make is that this interest should be available for post-war reconstruction. Surely, that argument is not one that can be substantiated, since the value of the property might be thousands of pounds whereas the sum here involved would be a matter of £100, or so, extended over four years. Moreover, if the Chancellor wished to make a limitation concerning the way in which the money should be expended, I and my hon. Friends would be prepared to agree to that. There is, then, the question of proving hardship in connection with the payment of this money. Why should these people have to prove hardship before they can get money which is due to them? I know that there are several provisions by which these people could possibly get some relief, but in most cases they have to be broken before they can appear before a tribunal. If the Chancellor accepted the Amendment it would give the people concerned a chance to meet their commitments, particularly when 4½ per cent. or 5 per cent. has to be paid on a mortgage.
    Another objection that may be made is that the money might be dissipated on other things and not used for reconstruction. I submit that that can be safeguarded by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He should consider these cases of hardship without compelling a man to go before a tribunal to prove that he has no money and therefore must unfortunately have this interest. The Chancellor of the Exchequer may point out that provision is made for this type of case under the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, the Landlord and Tenant (War Damage) Act and the Liabilities (War-Time Adjustment) Act, but in all these cases the man has to be down and out before he can
    730
    go before the tribunal. I do not think it is fair that people should have to suffer this hardship in order to obtain this amount, which is small compared with the total amount of property destroyed, and I sincerely trust that the Chancellor will consider this matter favourably on the grounds of equity.
    Captain Crookshank: My hon. Friend the Member for Balham and Tooting (Mr. Doland) has been very skilful in moving his Amendment. He has answered all the points which he thinks I am going to make against it instead of defending it. I do not know whether he has seen any of my notes, but he has very cleverly anticipated one or two of my points. Under Section 8, (1, b) of the principal Act the time when the payment may be made in the case of a value payment will be:
    "Such time or times as may be specified in regulations made by the Treasury either generally or as respects payments to be made in different circumstances."
    The Section goes on to say that:
    "Interest at the rate of two and a half per cent. per annum shall accrue on a value payment from the time of the occurrence of the war damage, and shall be payable when that payment is discharged."
    That is to say, it will be payable when the value payments are payable, which under Section8 is such date as may be specified in due course by the regulations. At present, as far as Parliament is concerned, there is no date fixed by legislation when these payments are to be made, but, of course, the 2½ per cent. is accruing. This Amendment sweeps that away and says that the interest, at 2½ per cent. on the future value payment, should be payable from the time of the ascertainment, which is a capricious date as between one claimant and another. The Commission, skilful as it is, cannot make all ascertainments on one date, and the Act lays down that in due course these value payments will, in Parliamentary language, fall into course of payment at a particular moment of time so that it will be the same for everybody. My hon. Friend's suggestion would mean that Mr. "A," who has had his ascertainment made, will be getting his 2½ per cent. under this Section, whereas his neighbour, whose case is at the bottom of the pile, may not have his ascertainment made until 12 months later, and will therefore not have his 2½ per

    731
    cent. payment in the meantime. Surely we must do justice as evenly as we can to all sufferers of war damage? We cannot allow one man to receive his 2½ per cent. payment just by chance—because his application was dealt with earlier than another. If the hon. Member bears that aspect in mind he will see that his proposal is not fair. Indeed, the matter goes further than that. It is not, in fact, until considerably later that you can be quite sure whether there is to be a cost-of-works payment or a value payment. From the point of view of the claimant, it may be extraordinarily disadvantageous to insist too soon on a value payment.
    Mr. Bellenger: Is it not the case that very few value assessments have been made?
    Captain Crookshank: I know that that is the case. The Commission had a tremendous amount of work to do in dealing with emergency repairs before they could get on to these problems. As I say, it would in many cases be contrary to the interests of the claimant to determine too precipitately, that he shall have a value payment, and that is my second reason for asking the Committee to reject the Amendment. Firstly, it would be capricious, and, secondly, it would not be to the interest of the claimants, in view of the fact that it is not until a considerably later date that these determinations can be made.
    My hon. Friend thought it would be a good plan for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to direct the Commission to make the 2½ per cent. payments in a certain way. He said he would be prepared to have a ruling laid down that the 2½per cent. payments should go towards the payment of mortgage interest. I know that this mortgage interest is a sort of refrain which goes through all these Debates and seems to pop up on almost every Amendment. I ask my hon. Friend to consider what would be the position of the Commission if they were to be told that they could pay 2½ per cent. to Mr. "A," but that they would have to see that it went towards his mortgage interest. The Commission has a great deal to do without being collectors of mortgage interest. I hope, therefore, that, on reflection, the Committee will see this is not a proposal which would be in the
    732
    interest of the persons it is designed to help.
    Mr. Selley: I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Balham and Tooting (Mr. Doland) has put up a very good case. The Government will not part with any of the money they have collected, which is due to the people who are insured. The argument put forward is very deep. Taking the Attorney-General's argument that there are poor mortgagors, I would point out that their only hope is that some of the money due to them may be paid from time to time to enable them to meet their liabilities. I do not think it is any part of the Government's duty to say what is to be done with the money. If they want to safeguard that, they can say that it will be advanced only where there is a mortgage liability. If that is done it will meet a very real hardship. It is all very well for the Government spokesman to seek to sweep away the case for the Amendment by referring to the original Act and treating this matter as if it was something to be dealt with at the end of the term. It is nothing of the kind; it is an immediate matter for all these people who are being pressed. At present a man has to turn out his pockets and go before a court to prove he is insolvent while the Government actually owe him money. This is a matter of common equity to people who are suffering great hardship. I ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to soften his heart and to have another look at the matter. I do not see any administrative difficulties, but I do see the difficulty that the Government do not want to part with any money before they are really forced to do so.
    Amendment negatived.
    Mr. Norman Bower: I beg to move, in page 7, line 5, at the end, to insert:
    "(3) Interest at the rate of two and a half per cent. per annum shall also accrue on a cost of works payment from the time of the occurrence of the war damage until such time as that payment is discharged:
    Provided that no interest shall be payable in respect of any period of less than three months."
    I move this Amendment because there does not seem to be any logical reason for making a distinction in the case of a cost of works payment as regards the 2½ per cent. interest which, in the case of a value

    733
    payment, accrues from the date of damage to the time of payment. The class of case with which the Amendment is designed to deal, is probably rather rare at the moment but is likely to become more frequent as time goes on and as it becomes more difficult and less in the public interest, owing to scarcity of labour and materials, to carry out immediate repairs on a substantial scale. The present position, as I see it, is that, if a house is completely demolished, the owner gets a value payment which carries with it ultimately 2½ per cent., and this operates as a set-off, although an inadequate one, against the rent of another house. If the house is not completely demolished but badly enough damaged to be rendered unfit for habitation, and the damage is so extensive that the necessary repairs cannot be done immediately, or even until the end of the war, the owner still has to pay the rent of another house but he does not get the great advantage of any set-off in the shape of 2½ per cent. interest. In a case like that the owner falls between two stools and gets the worst of both worlds.
    Let me give a concrete case of the sort of thing that can apparently happen under the present law. A constituent of mine had his house bombed in October, 1940. A surveyor came along from the local council and condemned it outright immediately. He refused even to meet the owner's architect and told the owner to put in for a value payment. He did so but heard nothing about it for approximately 10 months. In August, 1941, another surveyor came along and reversed the previous decision to the extent that he said he would not make up his mind one way or the other. Shortly afterwards a third surveyor came along and said that in any case one wall was dangerous and would have to be rebuilt and the property would then be handed over to the War Damage Commission. The work was put in hand, the wall was rebuilt by December, 1941. The War Damage Commission, running true to form, took 3½ months to pay the bill for the repairs authorised by the council. Apparently the Ministry of Works and Buildings took a hand in the game and issued licences for repairs up to £200 out of a total of some £600 which would have been required to put the house into full repair and make it habitable but at the same time said they could not issue any further licence. Any other repairs would have to wait until after the
    734
    war. The owner is, therefore, in the position that he has to pay a high rent for another house and wait until the end of the war, when he will eventually get the balance of his cost of works payments without any 2½ per cent. interest to offset the cost of alternative accommodation which he now has to occupy. That seems to me a grossly unfair position. I hope my right hon. Friend will see the matter in the same light and accept the Amendment.
    Sir K. Wood: I am indebted to my hon. Friend for his statement and for the case that he has put before the Committee, because it is right that a matter of this kind should be ventilated here. I should like first to say a word about his references to the War Damage Commission. I hope he was making no reflection on them because, in view of the very difficult task before them, they have accomplished a great deal of good work in the time available to them. They are a semi-judicial body. They are not in the same position as a Government Department and their sole anxiety is to deal with these claims as speedily as possible. I have had many opportunities of looking at their work and I think, although there may have been slips here and there, taken as a whole, they have done their work very well indeed.
    That brings me to this further comment on the Amendment. The fact that payment has not been made in the case of a cost-of-works decision, has nothing to do with the War Damage Commission. They are quite willing and able, and funds are freely at their disposal, and they are anxious that the work should be put in hand as speedily as possible and that the payment should be made. Wherever it has been possible for that to be done, their whole anxiety has been to get the work completed as quickly as possible. There is no difficulty as far as their intention and actions are concerned. Their difficulty—and it is also the difficulty of the owner—is the availability of labour and material, and it is when that difficulty arises that delays in payment occur. My hon. Friend cited a case of a man who, apparently, had suffered £800 or £1,000 worth of damage but a licence was only given for the expenditure of some £200 worth of material and labour. I do not know the facts of the case but I should imagine that that was a very wise decision

    735
    because you have to be fair as between a very large number of claimants in view of the material and labour available. I should imagine that, in this case, a survey of the property was made and it was ascertained what expenditure really would be sufficient to make the property habitable. As regards the remainder of the payment they probably said that it might be in respect of repairs which in peace time could very well be made but that regard must be had to the availability of labour and material, and they would do what they could. It is in order to do justice among various applicants that that attitude has been adopted.
    Notwithstanding the damage that has been done, the number of cases where first aid repair has been done by direction of the War Damage Commission is remarkable, and notice should be taken of the excellent work done by the local authorities themselves. When we survey some of the ruin due to enemy action, it is remarkable that in a very large number of cases it has been of a very minor character, and that in a large number of cases immediate steps have been taken to make property habitable again. It would not be possible and it would not be fair to say that some interest should be payable on a cost-of-works payment in cases where the delay arose, not from any question of war damage, but from the question of whether labour and material are available.
    My hon. Friend indicated that this might be regarded as some form of compensation for loss of the use of the property or of the rent. That argument is exceedingly dangerous from the point of view of equality and fairness as between different claimants. There might very well be two claimants, each owning a house of practically the same value as the other and in the same road, with one house having suffered a considerable amount of damage and the other house very much less damage, and in one case the claimant might get twice as much interest as the other, although both had been unable to use their respective properties for exactly the same length of time. It is difficulties like these with which one is confronted when attempting to deal with a situation of this kind. I think that perhaps my hon. Friend will be content with having brought forward this matter and will take my assurance
    736
    that we—and I am sure also the War Damage Commission—will continue to do our utmost to get these cost-of-works payments made as quickly as possible, and we only hope, from our point of view, that the labour and materials will be available in order to enable us to achieve our object.
    Sir R. Tasker: The Chancellor of the Exchequer might have been saved many of these difficulties if we had enabled the War Damage Commission to carry out the wording of the Act. It was because I felt that that I put down the first Amendment, which was ruled out of Order. I shall not break into lamentations and tears because it was ruled out of Order, but the Act does say that the Commission shall be:
    "charged with the duty of executing the provisions of this part of this Act relating to the making of payments in respect of war damage to land and shall exercise such other functions as are conferred upon them by this Act."
    The War Damage Commission have not been permitted to do that. So far as the technical officers of the Commission are concerned no words of praise can be too high for the way in which they have done their work.
    The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown): The hon. Member must not talk about an Amendment which has been ruled out of Order, but about the Amendment before the Committee.
    Sir R. Tasker: With great respect, I was merely referring to something the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said. I presume that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may be in Order but a back bencher may not, but he said that.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The hon. Member may not make that statement. He will please withdraw it.
    Sir R. Tasker: I apologise if I have done something which was not in accordance with the Rules of the House, but I was merely saying something which the Chancellor had said and for that reason I thought I was in Order. The Chancellor said that cost of works cases present no difficulty. Let me give the Committee the real difficulty which does exist. A man's house is bombed. He sends in a form to the district valuer. The district valuer refers him to the War Damage Commission. He sends in a form to them. The

    737
    War Damage Commission refer it to the Ministry of Works and Buildings. That Ministry operates under Defence Regulations. For the moment it has passed out of the hands of the War Damage Commission. They therefore cannot make a payment. Then what happens? The Ministry of Works and Buildings, instead of dealing with it, hand it over to an outside surveyor, and then the matter goes back to the Ministry of Works and from there on to the War Damage Commission. This roundabout procedure is preventing any prompt payments being made. I can give the Chancellor particulars of a case where a man's premises were destroyed and where adjoining property was partially destroyed and all this process which I have described has been going on for more than 18 months without the man receiving a single farthing, although his business has been destroyed and his property is partially destroyed. There is a general feeling among the public that the Government are deliberately withholding the money, which really belongs to the contributors. They tell the public, "We have paid such and such a proportion," but the case which was mentioned by the Mover of the Amendment is not singular or uncommon and really the Chancellor ought to give consideration to this matter. May I suggest that the Chancellor should consent to receive full details of these very bad cases in order that, before the Report stage is reached, some provision may be made in this amending Bill to ensure that justice is clone to those who have suffered.
    Mr. Norman Bower: I should like to thank the Chancellor for the consideration which he has given to this matter, but I can assure him that in the particular case to which I referred the house has not been' rendered habitable. I do not dispute what he says about the necessity of conserving labour and material, and repairs which are not necessary should not be carried out at the present time, but that is rather hard upon people who are in this category seeing that it is through no fault of their own that repairs cannot be made. I would like to thank the Chancellor for his assurance that he will do his best to see that cost of works payments are speeded up, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworth: I beg to move, in page 7, line 32, at end, to insert:
    5. Power to make a cost of works payment where a dwelling-house complying with the Housing and Town Planning Acts has become a total loss.
    The following proviso shall be inserted at the end of paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1) of Section four:
    "Provided that where the damage involves a total loss of a dwelling-house erected with the consent of the local authority after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, a cost of works payment shall be made."
    I should like to explain in moving this Amendment, which stands in the names of a number of hon. Members as well as my own, that the War Damage Commission have a discretion to order a cost of works payment in case of total loss. It is submitted that in place of that discretion the owner of a dwelling house which has become a total loss should, if that house had been erected in conformity with the housing and town planning laws, culminating in the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, have a right to have the house re-erected in conformity with the original plans. I know it will be said that during the Debate upon the original Act the Chancellor said that the State could not afford to provide new houses for old, but in this Amendment we are dealing with new houses, houses erected since the passing of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, which came into operation on 1st April, 1933. It is submitted that those houses, built according to modern planning and designs, should be re-erected from a cost of works grant.
    Sir K. Wood: I appreciate the case which my hon. Friend has put forward, but I think that a little examination of the proposal will show how difficult or almost impossible it would be for the Committee to accept it. The proposal is that as regards a particular class of houses which was authorised by local authorities after a certain date a cost of works payment shall be made. That is very different from the principle which was approved by the House when the War Damage Act, 1941, was passed. It was laid down in Section 7—and I think the Committee will desire to adhere to it—that where war damage in respect of which a value payment would otherwise be appropriate is made good in the public interest, the Commission shall have power to make a cost of works payment. In other words, the test as to what

    739
    kind of compensation is to be given is dependent on what it is in the national interest to do. It would not be advisable to lay down definitely that for a particular kind of house which has been authorised by a local authority, namely, those erected after the 1st April, 1933, a cost of works payment should be made. The first question which comes to mind is why the Amendment should be limited to houses built after that date. Many good houses were built before then, and if it is a question of replacing particularly good houses it should not be decided by the date when they were erected. We must adhere to the test which was laid down in the Act, whether it is in the national interest that one or other kind of payment should be made.
    In asking my hon. Friend not to press the matter further I would like to say that we shall have to consider later whether any further alterations to Section 7 of the Act should be made in the light of the determination of the House about proposals which the Government may be making in connection with future town and country planning and matters of that kind. When those questions come before the House we shall have to cosider Section 7 and see whether any alterations will have to be made to it in order that it may conform to whatever proposals the Government put forward.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworth: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and for certain hope and promise of what might happen in future. I therefore beg to ask lease to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In page 8, line 6, leave out "the preceding," and insert "this."—[The Attorney-General.]
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 8, line 19, to leave out "the Commission shall" and to insert "then."
    The object of this Amendment is to make it plain what is to happen in the case where a partially damaged hereditament is compulsorily purchased; what is to be the date of the compulsory purchase, after which no works will be paid for; and the fact that compensation for the compulsory purchase will be assessed with due regard to the fact that no works done after the date of the purchase will be paid for. The acquiring authority shall
    740
    acquire the property as it stands and will pay for it on that basis.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 8, line 21, leave out from "hereditament)," to the end of line 31, and insert:
    "(a) the Commission shall make a payment or payments in respect thereof as follows, that is to say, in respect of the damage so far as made good before the date of the acquisition, a payment of costs of works, and, in respect of the damage so far as not made good before that date, a value payment, of the amounts respectively mentioned in heads (a) and (b) of the preceding sub-paragraph; but
    (b) no payment of costs of works shall be made by reference to the cost of any works executed on or after the date of the acquisition, and compensation for the acquisition shall be determined accordingly.
    In relation to any such acquisition as aforesaid references to the date of the acquisition shall be construed as references to the earliest date after the occurrence of the damage on which any such action as the following is taken, namely, the service of a notice to treat for the acquisition of or of an interest m land constituting or forming part of the hereditament, the taking of any other action by virtue of which the acquisition of or of an interest in such land becomes obligatory, or the making of an agreement for the acquisition of or of an interest in such land without any such notice having been served or any other such action having been taken."—[The Attorney-General.]
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 9, line 7, at the end, to insert:
    "(6) Where both a payment of cost of works and a value payment are made under this paragraph, Sub-section (6) of Section three and paragraph I of this Schedule (which relate to the reduction of payments by reference to the value of articles becoming available as materials) shall not have effect in relation to both payments to the full extent, but the appropriate reduction in respect of the value of any articles shall be made in one or other of the payments or partly in one and partly in the other as the Commission may determine.
    Under the original Act there is a provision that if there is scrap or surplus material of any value available, its value shall be deducted from either the cost-of-works payment or the value payment. Under this Bill there may be a case in which in the same hereditament both cost of works and value payments may be made. This Amendment is to prevent a double deduction in respect of the same scrap value.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 9, line 11, to leave out paragraph 6, and to insert:

    741
    "6. Disposal of value payment substituted for payment of cost of works in favour of persons who would have benefited from payment of cost of works.
    (1) Where a value payment is made by the Commission in exercise of the power conferred on them by sub-paragraph (1) of the last preceding paragraph, or by virtue of sub-paragraph (2) thereof, or in exercise of the power conferred on them by subsection (2) of section seven, in respect of war damage in respect of which a payment of cost of works would have been payable if the nature of the payment had fallen to be determined under subsection (1) of section four, apart from any other provision, the following provisions of this paragraph shall have effect.
    (2) The disposal of the payment shall be regulated by reference to the title to the hereditament at the date of the determination of the Commission to exercise that power, or at the date of the acquisition, as the case may be (in this paragraph referred to as 'the material date'), and accordingly the payment and the interest thereon shall be paid—

    (a) if no proprietary interest other than the fee simple was subsisting in the hereditament or in any part thereof on the material date, to the person who was then the owner of the fee simple therein; or

    (b) in any other case, to the persons who were on the material date the owners of the several proprietary interests then subsisting in the hereditament, or in any part thereof, which were depreciated in value by reason of the war damage, in shares proportionate to the amount of the depreciation in value to which they were respectively subject by reason thereof.

    For the purposes of the last preceding sub-paragraph the depreciation in value to which an interest was subject by reason of war damage shall be taken to be the difference between—

    (a) the amount that an interest similar to that interest, subsisting in the hereditament on the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, with the like incidents (subject, so far as relevant, to the specified exceptions) as that interest had immediately before the material date, might have been expected to realise on a sale thereof in the open market on the said thirty-first day of March if the hereditament had been on that day in the state in which it was immediately before the occurrence of the damage; and

    (b) the amount that an interest so subsisting might have been expected to realise on such a sale if the hereditament had been on that day in the state by reference to which, as regards its state after damage, the depreciation in the value of the hereditament is ascertained for the purpose of computing the amount of the value payment in question;

    and those amounts respectively shall be dedetermined as provided by subsection (5) of section nine in relation to the determination of the value of a proprietary interest in a hereditament.
    742
    The specified exceptions referred to in this sub-paragraph are the following, that is to say,—

    (i) each of the said amounts shall be determined without regard to the fact of the interest's being subject to any charge or lien for securing money or money's worth;

    (ii) each of the said amounts shall be determined without regard to the fact of the interest's being affected by any restriction imposed on the hereditament by or under an enactment passed after the passing of the principal Act or by any liability of the hereditament to become subject to any restriction by virtue of any enactment;

    (iii) the said amount referred to in head (a) shall be determined without regard to incidents arising under the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant (War Damage) Acts, 1939 and 1941;

    (iv) the said amount referred to in head (b) shall be determined, as respects incidents so arising, by reference to the incidents so arising which in fact attach to the interest whether before or after the material date, except that where a conditional notice of retention has been served and the interests both of the landlord and of the tenant are acquired as mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) of the last preceding paragraph that amount shall be determined as if the notice had not been conditional.

    (4) The principal Act shall have effect as if the provisions of the two last preceding sub-paragraphs had been inserted in section nine after subsection (3) thereof, and those provisions shall accordingly have effect subject to the provisions of subsection (4) thereof.
    (5) If any person makes application to the Commission in that behalf and shows that, having regard to any agreement made during the period between the occurrence of the damage and the passing of this Act as to the disposal of any payment which might be made in respect of the damage, or to any transaction or disposition entered into or made or contained in a will or codicil executed during that period on the assumption that a particular "kind of payment would be made in respect of the damage or that any payment to be made in respect thereof would be disposed of in a particular way, or to any other circumstances occurring during that period, the disposal of the payment in accordance with the preceding provisions of this paragraph would involve serious injustice to him, the Commission may dispose of the whole or any part of the payment or of any share thereof as if subsection (2) of section nine had had effect in relation thereto or otherwise as may appear to them to be just and equitable in all the circumstances.
    The Commission may make orders as to the costs of the parties on applications under this sub-paragraph and as to the parties by whom such costs are to be paid, and may tax or settle the amount of the costs to be paid under any such order or direct in what manner they are to be taxed, and any such order may be enforced in like manner as an order of a referee as to costs made under the Second Schedule.
    (6) In relation to a value payment made as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph

    743
    section forty-six (which relates to the mode of disposal of a value payment or of a share of such a payment in certain circumstances) shall have effect subject to the following modifications, that is to say—

    (a) for the references in sub-sections (1) and (4) to the occurrence of war damage there shall be substituted references to the material date; and

    (b) in sub-section (2) the reference to a testamentary disposition made before the occurrence of the war damage shall include a reference to such a disposition made before the material date."

    This Amendment is really a redraft on somewhat different lines of the original paragraph 6 of the First Schedule to the Bill. The problem with which it deals is one which arises where the Commission decide to make a value payment under one or other of the powers which enable them to do it in the case in which they would, by applying the strict rule, make a cost of works payment. No trouble really arises where special interests in the property have not changed between the date of the damage and the date when the decision to make a value payment is made. There may be cases in which the property or an interest in the property has changed hands on the basis that there will be a cost of works payment, and it is important that there should be machinery for seeing that the value payment when it comes to be made should reach the right hands. The scheme of this Amendment is to say that you shall look at the interest at the date when the decision to make the value payment is taken. In normal cases that will produce an equitable result, but there may be cases in which there has been a transfer of the property, whether by contract or under a will, in which case there would be an anomalous result if you applied the governing principle as laid down in the earlier part of the Amendment. It is impossible to foresee all the cases which might arise, but the Amendment provides in paragraph (5) for an application being made to the Commission by persons who say that owing to the form of contract or to what has happened the machinery as laid down by the Amendment will produce an unfair result. The discretion has to be in wide terms, but it is a problem we have thought about in some detail with the assistance of those who are in touch with it, and the general scheme of this new draft is a considerable improvement on the draft in the original Bill.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Douglas: I beg to move, in page 10, line 26, at the end, to insert:
    "Power to vary time when payments may be made under Section eight.
    In cases where, because of the age, infirmity, or poverty of the person entitled to the payment, hardship will be caused to him by deferment thereof, the Commission shall have power to advance to him any sum or sums not exceeding the total amount which they are satisfied will fall due to him."
    The object of the Amendment is simple. I will illustrate it by a case in which there is a house occupied by an old lady who has the enjoyment of only part of it because she has to use the rest of it to make a living by taking in boarders. She may be of an advanced age. In the meantime, because of the destruction of the house, she has nothing to live upon. The principle of the Act as is stands is that no payment shall be made to her until some time after the war is over. That might easily mean that not only has she nothing to live upon but she might not live until that time. I am asking that, in cases of that kind, where there is hardship due to age or infirmity and where a person must have a means of livelihood, there should be advance payments. The War Damage Commission should have the power to make advances up to an amount not in excess of the total amount payable to such persons under the Act. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will see his way to accept this simple Amendment.
    Mr. Graham White: I support the Amendment. My hon. Friend has argued the case of special disablement arising from old age, infirmity or personal difficulties of that kind, but the matter is of somewhat wider application. There are many cases in which, although every agreement has been arrived at with the Commission in respect of the amount of compensation due, the persons who wish to proceed cannot do so because no means are available to them. It is a case in which justice cannot be done, and men are ruined because there is no power on the part of the Commission to make any payment to them. It is a very serious hardship, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will give consideration to it.
    Sir K. Wood: I would make one observation upon the case which my hon. Friend the Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) has just made. I

    745
    doubt very much whether it is in the interests of claimants in the particular case he mentioned, where, apparently, a sum of money should be paid in respect of a cost-of-works payment—which cannot, in fact, be performed at the present time, owing, I should guess, to difficulties of labour and materials—to hand over a sum of money to such claimants to expend as they desire. That is not the main principle which runs through this legislation. What the House laid down in connection with these payments is that we should have regard to the interests of the claimant and to the national interest as well, as we all desire to do. Part of the reason why this Act is on the Statute Book is that we desire to see rebuilt in this country—we hope in better fashion than many houses in the past—houses and factories which compose very largely what we call our national assets.
    I hope that my hon. Friend will give no encouragement to the suggestion that we are doing our duty under the Act by handing out payments which persons may put in their pockets and expend as they desire. My hon. Friend will recall that cost-of-works payments are made to the persons who have discharged the work. As regards value payments, no doubt he will recall that those payments have to be made when the War Damage Commission has given consideration to the national interest. I should guess that the trouble of the constituent to whom my hon. Friend was referring is really that, owing to the scarcity of labour and materials, it has not been possible for him to put his property into condition at as early a date as possible.
    Mr. G. White: I am afraid I must disclaim any intention of suggesting that we should hand out sums of money to be devoted to purposes other than those for which they are intended. In the actual case I had in mind, the difficulties of labour and materials had all been settled, but no money has been received.
    Sir K. Wood: I should very much like to have particulars of that case. If the labour and materials are available, there is no reason why the matter should not be proceeded with. My hon. Friend may take it that there is no withholding of money at all from the Exchequer and the Treasury in that particular connection. I know that the War Damage
    746
    Commission are most anxious for these cases to proceed.
    So far as the Amendment is concerned, I wanted to hear the case put by my hon. Friend the Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas) and to consider between now and the Report stage whether I should be justified in asking the Committee to take any steps, and what steps, in this connection. The matter is not without difficulty. I can quite understand my hon. Friend's feeling in the matter that, in cases where it is right and proper, on the ground of age, infirmity or poverty, and where hardship would be caused by deferment—those are the major things that we have in mind—the Commission should have power to advance a sum or sums not exceeding the total amount which is to fall due to such persons.
    It is often exceedingly doubtful—I do not want to put it too high, and I would not prejudice my consideration of the matter—whether it is in the true interests of the claimant that such advances should be made. One is tempted to say, "Why not let a particular claimant have £25 or £50 on account of the sum that may be due to him in respect to his damaged property? "We have to remember that such advances may ultimately mean £25 or £50 less money available for the re-erection or the repair of the particular claimant's property. However difficult and hard a case may be, it is doubtful whether in fact it is wise to make available a sum of that character, which might be expended, no doubt, as the claimant would desire, but not perhaps as he might most usefully be advised to spend it. It may very well be in the best interests of the claimant to keep a pretty strict line, because if you once begin to make exceptions as regards payments of this character, you will get into very great difficulties indeed. There is a very great deal to be said for the view that the object of this Measure, which ought to dominate all other considerations, is to see that property is restored and houses made available to live in. I am therefore very doubtful whether it is wise even in cases of old age or infirmity, much as I would sympathise with such cases, to break the rule.
    The only other matter I would mention in this connection is that it would be an extremely difficult task to place upon the

    747
    War Damage Commission. They would have to decide, without very much guidance but in accordance with the facts of each particular case, whether an advance payment should be made. I must have regard to the very considerable duties which now rest upon the War Damage Commission, and consider whether it is right to put a further duty of this kind upon them. Having made these observations, I will add that I will consider the Amendment again, although I am very doubtful whether it is a wise one to adopt.
    Mr. Bellenger: If the Chancellor examines the claim put by my hon. Friend in the spirit of the words he has just spoken, we shall be satisfied, but I would suggest again that here we are considering a particular class of persons who have lost their homes and who may not even survive the war if it lasts as long as some of us think it may do. We should do all we possibly can to make the rest of their lives as comfortable as possible. Considering the psychological effect on these people who have lost everything, I am sure the Chancellor will not use such arguments to reduce my hon. Friend's Amendment to nullity. I hope that he will not stress the point concerning the work entailed, if such an Amendment as this is carried in some form or another, on the War Damage Commission. I know some of the work of the Commission. It has been very onerous and they have dealt with it, as the Chancellor himself said, very well indeed, with the aid of an efficient and able staff. In view of the duties which they have to undertake at present, I do not think that this very limited class of case would cause them so much extra work. I think my hon. Friend will be the first to acknowledge the Chancellor's willingness to examine the case in a sympathetic manner.
    Mr. Douglas: I appreciate the difficulties which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to face in this matter. It was on that account that I tried to limit the scope of the cases in which such an application could be made, and also to make the power merely discretionary and not obligatory. In view of the promise which the right hon. Gentleman has given to reexamine the matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments made: In page 10, lines 31 and 46, leave out:
    "immediately before the occurrence of the war damage."—[Sir K. Wood.]
    Mr. Garro Jones: I beg to move, in page 11, line 8, at the end, to insert:
    "9. Commission to entertain claims of three pounds and over.
    In section eleven 'the sum of three pounds' shall be substituted for 'the sum of live pounds' in every case."
    It is rather surprising that five hon. Members whose names are appended to this Amendment are not able at present to move it, and I therefore propose to do so. I have not had time to look into all the repercussions of the Amendment, but if I remember aright it is intended to abolish the provision in the principal Act which lays upon the person whose property is damaged the burden of the first £5 worth of the damage. I think it is not asking too much to suggest that the sum of £3 should be substituted for the sum of £5 in such a case. If we consider for a moment the type of damage which will fall between £3 and £5, we shall find that in 90 per cent. of cases it consists of the breaking of the whole of the windows or of part of the roof. In the case of a small property it may clearly inflict considerable hardship on a person whose means are limited and are being stretched to the utmost under war-time conditions if he has to pay the first £5 of damage done.
    I will give just one further argument in favour of reducing that amount to £3. It is because of the consequential damage which often arises if the first damage is not immediately repaired. Suppose, for example, that a breach has been made in the roof. Perhaps not more than a dozen tiles have been displaced, but if it is not promptly repaired, damage amounting to £10, £20 or £30 may easily result. There are many cases—certainly I have encountered a few—where people are not able to find the money. When the limit of £5 was questioned when the principal Act was before the House I believe the right hon. Gentleman said that if these very small claims were to be laid before the War Damage Commission at a time when a whole flood of claims was bearing in upon them, their offices would be swamped and they would not be able to administer the scheme properly. The first rush of work has finished, and as we may see from reading these notes, they are

    749
    completely on top of their job, to use a colloquialism. That is a very sincere compliment to the Commission. If the Chancellor were to ask the Commission whether they now felt themselves in a position to handle this new smaller class of claims, I am certain he would find that they would answer in the affirmative.
    Mr. Bellenger: Unlike my hon. Friend who has just preceded me, I have given some consideration to this point, though I must congratulate him on the very able manner in which he jumped into the breach and explained the case in the absence of the movers of this Amendment or those who have put their names to it. It seems to me that this principle of excluding any claim that does not reach £5 is based on a well-known principle adopted by insurance companies whereby in the case of fire insurance or other insurance the insurance company throws the liability for the first £5 of the claim on to the insured. That may have been done with the express purpose of excluding frivolous claims which sometimes happened in connection with fire insurance claims. But it cannot be the same principle in war damage claims. There have been many cases where property far away, perhaps, from the immediate incident has sustained some damage such as my hon. Friend instanced, broken glass and so forth, and for which a claim of more than £5 cannot be made up. I may say, in passing, that if they called in an experienced valuer, or a person following the same profession as I used to follow, it is quite easy to make up a claim of over £5, and to carry it to the War Damage Commission, because the War Damage Commission have not the time or experienced men to come down and investigate a claim for £6 5s. 2½d. If it seems reasonable on paper, they pay it, rightly so, I think.
    I do not refer, of course, to the type of claim made when no damage has been done. If a person puts in a claim which is entirely false, that person can be proceeded against in the ordinary course of the law. But there are many cases in which poor people—and they are poor people, otherwise they would be able to call in expert advice—have sustained some minor damage and have been unable to get any recompense. I suggest to the Chancellor that this is a case in which he ought to accept the Amendment.
    750
    As my hon. Friend said—and I think my recollection is the same as his—on the occasion when we were discussing the principal Act, the reason given by the Government for excluding these small claims was because of the work which would be thrown on to the War Damage Commission. I think the Chancellor will agree with me that as things are at the moment—and they have been like it for a year, at any rate—the work thrown on to the War Damage Commission is not so great, thanks to Mr. Hitler, or his lack of aeroplanes, or some reason which we cannot quite understand. I think and hope that the Chancellor will agree that in these circumstances we might now admit these smaller claims. That is the whole case, and I think that was in the minds of the supporters of this Amendment. It does affect quite a number of people in humble circumstances, and on those grounds alone I think that the Chancellor might meet us. It is not a case of high principle; it is a case of administration.
    Sir K. Wood: I am sure we all recognise the strenuous efforts which my hon. Friend has made to deal with this Amendment in the absence of those who sponsored it and who are not present at this moment. I will make no comment on the illuminating glimpse which my hon. Friend gave of the life of a surveyor and what he does, which I am afraid rather astonishes me, as I have always had such a high regard for members of that great profession. We will pass that by and say nothing about it, and I will endeavour to deal with the merits of this Amendment. I would recall to the memory of my hon. Friends what happened when we discussed this matter on the last occasion. In fact we devoted some time to the question of what the limits should be, and many of my hon. Friends will remember that we conferred together beforehand as to the attitude I should take, and I received advice from Members in all quarters of the House before I came to the conclusion as to what in fact I should advise the Committee to do. Most of my hon. Friends whom I consulted came to the conclusion, in connection with the suggestions I was about to make, that it was in fact in the interests of the claimants themselves that the provisions we ultimately made in the Bill should prevail. There are two things which have to be taken into account and which led us to the conclusion that £5 was

    751
    the proper limit. One is that the great measure of what is called first-aid work, which includes these small claims, is done by the local authorities, and in their case there is no limit to the particular amount. The local authorities, as we know, because they have done magnificent work in this respect, have done a great measure of first-aid work, and many people have been restored quickly to their homes. So far as that work is concerned, there is no question of a £3 or £5 limit at all.
    The second matter that led us all to come to the conclusion that this was the right thing to do was that I also made a proposal, a suggestion of many of my hon. Friends, that where in fact there were two or three houses or more belonging to any particular person to which minor damage was done we would allow, and the House approved it, the amount of damage to those houses added together, so that where damage of a few pounds was done to one house and to another that should be permitted to be added together and payment made. As a matter of fact, I have had no complaint about the decision we all took in that matter. I have consulted the War Damage Commission, as the House would expect me to do, on this and a number of other Amendments, because they are the people on whom any burden of work would fall. I think myself that if we introduced, at this late stage, a £3 limit into the Bill we would be bound to make it retrospective. I do not think for a moment we could say that only people who sustained damage down to £3 from 2nd June, or whenever we considered the matter, are to be paid and those who suffered before that are not to be paid.
    It would be almost impossible for us at this time to put on the War Damage Commission the task of examining all the small claims that may not have been assisted by the local authority, and also of undertaking the payment of small claims of this character now. It would not be in the interest of the claimants, because it would considerably impede the work that the Commission have in hand at this moment. I would not like Members to think that the work of the Commission has slowed up. It is true that they have not had to deal with the large number of immediate claims which they had some time ago, but they have a great mass of
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    work to do. I ask my hon. Friend not to press this Amendment further, but to rely on the arrangement we came to last time. In fact, the bulk of this work is being done by the local authorities, and it would not be in the interest of the claimants themselves to impose the payment of these small amounts. On the whole, most of us thought the arrangement made last time a reasonable one.
    Sir R. Tasker: Would my right hon. Friend reconsider this question between now and the Report stage? It really affects the humblest people. I agree that the change must be made retrospective if it is made at all. Let me mention the case of an old age pensioner whose house was damaged. He repaired it himself. He was not allowed to charge for his own time, because he was an old age pensioner; so that if he spent £3 on materials and put in £3 worth of labour, he could get nothing. Surely it is comparatively easy for a qualified man to go and see whether the damage is really war damage or not? There are penal clauses to prevent people trying to jump claims on the Commission.
    Mr. Bellenger: Could we get an assurance from the Chancellor that he will consult the War Damage Commission before entirely closing his mind? He must see the absurdity of his whole case. If you make your claim £5 os. 1d., you come within the Act, but if it is £5 or less you remain outside. Without any dereliction of duty on the part of an experienced surveyor, is it not possible for him to make a £5 claim into a claim for £5 os. 2d.? If the only objection is the administrative one, the Chancellor should see the War Damage Commission about it.
    Mr. McKinlay: Is it generally known that there is a limit of £5? As one who was responsible for the repair of the bulk of the war damage in Glasgow, I say that it is a waste of public money to send surveyors to survey £3 worth of damage. If the limit were generally known—I am not inciting anybody to do anything at all—the inclusion of a couple of window cords would perhaps bring the total up to £5. I do not believe that those poor people are as dumb as some Members make out. If the damage is only £3, the people ought to be thankful that that is all the damage that they have suffered.
    Sir K. Wood: I leave that speech as it has been made. I have no doubt that the views my hon. Friend has put forward will be duly weighed by the Committee. The argument about a claim for £5 os. 1d. would apply equally, if the Amendment were carried, to a claim for £3 os. 1d. Wherever a figure is fixed, you will always get that difficulty. I have consulted with the War Damage Commission on this matter, but I will call their attention to the Debate to-day, and ask whether they would like to add anything to what they have said on the matter.
    Amendment negatived.
    The Deputy-Chairman: The next Amendment covers the first Amendment on page 97, in the name of the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), the first Amendment on page 98, in the name of the hon. Member for Peckham (Mr. Silkin), and the first Amendment on page 99, in the name of the hon. Member for South Croydon.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 11, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    "10. Reduction of contribution where Schedule A assessment reduced, otherwise than through war damage, by reason of destruction or demolition of buildings.
    At the end of Sub-section (2) of Section thirty (which provides that where by reason of alteration in the condition of a unit of land a Schedule A assessment is replaced by another such assessment, the lower of the two assessments is to be disregarded) there shall be inserted the following proviso:
    "Provided that where the alteration is caused, otherwise than by war damage, by the destruction or demolition of buildings or works, or parts thereof, comprised in the unit of land, then, as respects an instalment of contribution for any year (being a year subsequent to the year nineteen hundred and forty-one) the relevant date in which falls after the new assessment is first in force, the assessment replaced, and not the new assessment, shall be disregarded for the purposes of this Part of this Act notwithstanding that the amount of the new assessment is less than that of the assessment replaced.' "
    This Amendment, although it may not meet all the points in the various Amendments, is designed to meet the point which was made in the Second Reading Debate and which has cropped up from time to time since the original Act was passed. Under the original Act, if a house which had a particular Schedule A assessment prior to the war was burned to the ground, not through bombing but by an
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    ordinary fire, or was demolished or structually altered in a manner which reduced its value and its Schedule A assessment, nevertheless the contribution was still based on the pre-war Schedule A value. The justification for that was that in the early part of the war the full value was at risk, and if it had been bombed at that time, before the fire or the demolition, its value at that time would have been paid under the Bill. There was much more reason for that scheme at a time when, prior to this Bill, the contribution was in respect of an initial risk period. Now that it has been possible, at any rate for the moment, to treat the contribution, as covering an indefinite period, it strengthens the argument for adjusting the contribution to the present reduced value of the house in cases where that reduction in value arises in one or other of the ways indicated in the Amendment.
    It will be clear to the Committee that, under the terms of the Amendment, you do not get this reduction if your house is destroyed by war damage. If the house is destroyed by war damage, one is going to be a beneficiary, under the Act, out of the fund, to which other property owners and the State will contribute. This provision for reduction applies only where the Schedule A value comes down as the result of some alteration in the structure, and not if that alteration is due to war damage. This concession, if I may so describe it, does not apply to the first instalment of the War Damage Contribution. In many cases that already has been collected and paid, and, in the vast majority of cases covered by this concession, the property in its pre-war form will have been at risk for a substantial period. Both on practical grounds and grounds of principle it seems reasonable that we should leave the first instalment based on the old Schedule A value, but in other cases, where there is a reduction of the Schedule A value due to the causes enumerated in the Amendment, then the later instalments will be based on the reduced figure.
    Mr. McKinlay: I would like one point cleared up. In my division there is a mansion house property which, together with the adjoining grounds, has been purchased for the purposes of housing development. The mansion house property is so dilapidated and in such a state of disrepair that it has not been occupied

    755
    since its acquisition and will not be occupied, and were it not for the lease it would have been demolished. The first contribution has already been paid on that property and I take it that, should this Amendment be carried, the local authority concerned will be relieved from any further contributions under the War Damage Act in respect of the property. Will the Amendment free the local authority from paying contributions?
    The Attorney-General: I would like to see the case. If the mansion house has been uninhabitable from the beginning of the war and immediately before the war, I do not understand why there should have been a Schedule A assessment, unless somebody just left it there without bothering to get it out of the way. If my hon. Friend will send particulars, I will have the matter looked into. If the house is uninhabitable, I should have thought that the Schedule A assessment could be reduced to next to nil. It does not seem to be a case to be covered by the Amendment, which is really designed to cover cases where the actual physical configuration of the structure has been altered by fire, demolition or some other cause since the outbreak of war, but, as I have said, if my hon. Friend will send particulars of the case my right hon. Friend will have it looked into.
    Mr. Woodburn: The Attorney-General points out that an exception is made of the house which is damaged as the result of an air raid and that the contribution is continued on the ground that those concerned will eventually receive their re-compense. I would draw attention to the position of a person whose house is damaged by air raid in so far as he ceases the use of the property perhaps for many years and must still continue paying, although in addition he may be paying for the cost of finding accommodation for himself elsewhere. On the ground of equity it is not fair on the man who loses his property in an air raid that he should have to continue to pay the contribution, which, in the case of an ordinary fire insurance, he would cease to contribute after the first year.
    Mr. Bellenger: I take it that the Amendment excludes those properties which have been scheduled by local authorities for
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    demolition under Housing Acts if they are in fact demolished? My right hon. and learned Friend will know that it is not always easy to demolish condemned properties even during war time—
    The Deputy-Chairman: That matter arises on the next Amendment in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Bellenger: I am speaking on the Amendment to Schedule I, in page 11, line 13, which excludes the payment of contribution in cases where the alteration is caused
    "otherwise than through war damage, by reason of destruction or demolition of buildings."
    The Deputy-Chairman: The next Amendment deals with that matter.
    Mr. Bellenger: I beg your pardon, Colonel Clifton Brown. Then I must reserve my remarks on this point. There is one question I would like to put to the Attorney-General with regard to the retrospective effect of the contribution. He told us that the Government are going to ignore the first contributions already paid. Is that not a little unfair to those who paid up promptly? In some cases, because of arguments between the assessed person and the Inland Revenue, the former has been able to hold up the case for some time, so that by the time the Act comes into force, he may be able to evade the payment of the first contribution.
    The Attorney-General: The Amendment does not affect the liability in respect of the first instalment. It does not matter whether it has been paid already or whether a person has been able to hold it up by producing ingenious arguments, he will not be in any better position because the first instalment is excluded from this Amendment.
    Mr. McKinlay: Schedule A does not apply in Scotland; it is the valuation roll. One of the properties I have in mind appears in that valuation roll as being valued at 1s. I do not expect that the other will appear in the valuation roll at all. Nevertheless, contributions have to be paid in the first period and I want to know on behalf of one of the local authorities concerned whether, if this amending Bill goes through, the contributions will cease to be paid for such property?
    Sir K. Wood: Perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to consult the Lord Advocate on the matter, as I am not particularly familiar with the intricacies of the law in Scotland, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 11, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    "11. Suspension or remission of instalments in respect of properties affected by clearance or compulsory purchase, or demolition, orders.

    (1) Where as respects the year nineteen hundred and forty-two or any subsequent year the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are satisfied that the following conditions are fulfilled in the case of any contributory property which consists of a house or building and the site thereof, that is to say,—

    (a) that at the beginning of that year the house or building was subject to a clearance order made under the Housing Act, 1936, which had been confirmed by the Minister of Health, to a compulsory purchase order made under that Act relating to land comprised in a clearance area, or made in accordance with Subsection (3) of Section thirty-six of that Act, which had been so confirmed, or to a demolition order made under that Act which had become operative; and

    (b) that the house or building has not been occupied in whole or in part since the beginning of that year,

    the Commissioners of Inland Revenue shall take no steps to recover any instalment of contribution falling due in respect of the property for that year unless and until they are satisfied that the condition specified in head (b) of this sub-paragraph has ceased to be fulfilled or that the order has been quashed.

    (2) Any reference in this paragraph to a house or building includes a reference to any yard, garden, outhouses and appurtenances belonging thereto or usually enjoyed therewith; and the reference in head (a) of the last preceding sub-paragraph to a house or building subject to a compulsory purchase order confirmed by the Minister of Health includes a reference to a house or building belonging to a local authority to which by virtue of Section twenty-eight of the Housing Act, 1936, the provisions of that Act apply as if it had been purchased by the authority as being land comprised in a clearance area."

    This Amendment also goes some way, though perhaps not the whole of the way, to meet a point which was raised on Second Reading and also when we were discussing the original Measure. It relates to those cases in which the property is subject to a clearance order or a demolition order or a similar order of that kind. The question is, What is the right course to take in these circumstances? Some people would say, and I think some
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    of the Amendments suggest, that irrespective of whether that property is occupied or not, it should pay no contribution. I cannot exactly commend that view to the Committee. Here is property on which in the course of time, the guillotine will descend. It will be demolished, but at the moment it is occupied and producing rent for whoever owns it. If it is damaged the local authority will come round and do the first-aid repairs and enable the occupier to continue and the landlord to get the rent or whatever it is that he is getting. I do not think that that view is right. When the matter was discussed my right hon. Friend said that under the Bill all property owners should stand in together.
    It was impossible to get a completely logical scheme which enabled each contribution to be exactly related to the value of the building and its life, as distinct from the various elements which go to make up Schedule A. What my right hon. Friend proposes in this Amendment is this. If property is subject to one of these orders which are set out in paragraph (a) and the house or building is unoccupied during the year then there is to be no collection of the contribution. That is because it has this axe hanging over it and is not producing income for the owner and it seems reasonable in those circumstances that he should be excused contributions. If, however, in the course of the year it becomes occupied, contributions are payable. I hope the Committee will feel that this is a reasonable proposal for dealing with this point.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Captain Gammans: I beg to move, in page 11, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    10. Reduction of contributions.
    Section twenty-two of the principal Act shall be amended by adding the following Subsections:—

    (6) Before the first day of July in the year nineteen hundred and forty-two, and in each subsequent year, the Treasury shall make an estimate of the net receipts of the Exchequer under Part I of the principal Act on the one hand, and the payments under that part of that Act on the other hand, in relation to each financial year.

    (7) Such estimate shall be made in the manner provided by Sub-section (5) of this Section of the principal Act, and the Treasury shall on or before such first day of July, and in each subsequent year, lay copies thereof before both Houses of Parliament unless the Treasury shall certify that, in the interests of the defence of the realm, or the

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    efficient prosecution of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged, it is inexpedient that such copies should be so laid.

    (8) If on any such estimate it appears that the said net receipts exceed the said payments the Treasury shall (whether or not any previous order has been made under this Section) by order reduce the instalment of contribution outstanding in respect of the current financial period to such extent as will in their opinion extinguish such excess.

    (9) If on any such estimate it appears that the said net receipts exceed the said payments but there are no further instalments to become due the Treasury shall by order provide for the return of such proportion of any instalment which has already become due as will in their opinion extinguish such excess.

    (10) Any Order under Sub-section (3) of this Section decreasing the proportion which each remaining instalment is to bear to the contributory value and any Order under Subsection (4) of this Section shall be so made as to secure that the proportion in the case of properties to which the proviso to Subsection (3) of Section twenty of the principal Act applies is always one-quarter of the proportion in the case of other properties."

    The point of this Amendment is that it aims not so much at reducing payments as at spreading them over a longer period and lessening the burden on property owners at a time when they are least able to bear it. I do not think I need point out to the Committee that the War Damage Act has departed very considerably from the original principles laid down by the Prime Minister, when he suggested that damage caused by enemy action should be borne by the community as a whole. What has happened, and what is likely to happen unless air raids continue on a very much greater scale than has been the case up to the present, is that this damage will be borne by one section of the community, namely, the property owners. I do not want to argue that point but what I am suggesting is that the Treasury at the present moment are collecting about £40,000,000 a year and cannot possibly spend anything like that amount because of the grave shortage of labour and materials, which is likely to grow worse as the war goes on. The Government have, quite rightly, insisted on first-aid repairs only being done now and have put a limit on what should be done. The Chancellor gave us to understand to-day that he would reveal the extent of the damage which had been done. My point is not so much on the question of what damage has been done as on what amount of damage can be
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    repaired while the war continues. That is why it is suggested that the contributions should be limited to what is likely to be spent.
    I could give many examples of the hardship of the present arrangements, as I am sure could other Members of the Committee, but I will give only one from my own personal knowledge. I know of two old maiden ladies who live in a part of London which has been heavily bombed and who own five houses on which they are dependent for their income. One of these houses has been destroyed, two are empty because people do not want to live in that part of London and two are let at reduced rents. The result is that these ladies are practically without any income. When the war is over, those empty houses will be letable and those now let at reduced rents will fetch their pre-war values and the owners will then be much better able to meet the charges than they are now. As a matter of principle it is not right that the Government should collect more than they can spend. The position now savours of what happened to the Road Fund when money which was collected for one purpose was not used for that purpose at all. It may be argued that there is the possibility of an increase in bombing, against which provision has to be made. Well, that may come, but, as I have said, it is not so much a question of what damage has been done as of replacements which can be effected during the war. I do not want to press the exact phraseology of my Amendment. Perhaps the word "estimate" is better than the word "statement," but if the Chancellor appreciates the underlying principle he may be able to do something to help the tens of thousands of small property owners who, at the present time, are suffering great hardship on this account.
    Sir K. Wood: There are two observations I would like to make by way of correction of what my hon. and gallant Friend said. I do not think he correctly cited the Prime Minister's statement about the principles of the War Damage Act, and, secondly, I did not undertake—although I intend to make an observation on this matter—to reveal what amount of damage has been done in this country. No one in the Committee would ask me to do such a thing. My hon. and gallant Friend has

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    put a remarkable proposal before the Committee and one which I do not think anyone, with due regard to financial operations and the prudent administration of this Measure, could support. Apparently what he wants to do is to restrict current contributions by owners of property, under this Measure, to the amount of the immediate outgoings on temporary repairs and such costs-of-works payments as may be made.
    As regards reconstruction and value payments, he said we should leave them until after the war and see how we get on then. I do not think that would appeal to the Committee. It does not appeal to me as a businesslike arrangement and I do not think it is in the interests of the contributors themselves. It is not in the interests of people concerned with damaged property and contributions under this Bill to leave over an uncertain and major part of what would have to be paid to meet losses caused by the war, until after the war, when, apparently, some fresh arrangement would be made for payment. It is not a case of the Treasury endeavouring to draw in a considerable sum of money and use it for other purposes. Having regard to the statements that have been made, I do not think it will do any harm to say—because it will dispel a certain measure of suspicion.—that at any rate last year's outgoings in fact exceeded the receipts. Therefore, nine-tenths of the case upon which my hon. and gallant Friend has based his Amendment disappears. We need not pay too much attention to this particular matter, because things vary a good deal, and we shall be receiving some further contributions a most immediately, so that the position may then be reversed. Consequently, although I attach no particular significance to this matter, it shows the folly of trying to base the scheme upon the exact expenditure made and the exact receipts that have come in.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is it not a fact that a very large number of contributions are in arrear?
    Sir K. Wood: No, not a large number. I could get the exact proportion, and I may refer to this in the Third Reading Debate, but it is only fair to say that the majority of people who have had to make contributions have, in fact, done so, and of the large sums that have to be collected, only a very small proportion have
    762
    not been received. But do not let there be any misapprehension that we are making a current profit. I do not base my opposition to the Amendment on that particular ground, because the position differs from time to time. I am opposed to the proposal because I consider it to be thoroughly unbusinesslike and not in the interests of the people who have to make contributions. I ask the Committee firmly to maintain the financial structure of the Measure, to which we all agree, and from which I see no reason for departing.
    Sir John Mellor: I am unable to agree with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor that the proposal of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hornsey (Captain Gammans) is as absurd as he has suggested. Obviously, it would apply only in years in which the contributions were in excess of the payments. I cannot understand why the Chancellor should consider it so essential to collect more than is enough to make the payments, because surely, if there were a grave increase in the amount of destruction due to enemy action, the general liability to make adequate contributions according to the principal Act is, in effect, well secured, or could be made well secured, upon the property. But it will be a long time after the war before the great bulk of cost-of-works payments will be payable owing to the necessary postponement of the great bulk of re-building. The Chancellor said that he has no wish to make a profit out of this scheme. The fact remains that he gets this money free of interest. It is not earmarked for any particular fund. It is used for the general finance of the war, and in effect may be described as a forced loan in so far as it is not required for making payments.
    Sir K. Wood: I do not think my hon. Friend can have heard what I said as regards the exact position of the fund.
    Sir J. Mellor: I listened carefully to what my right hon. Friend said. If I misunderstood him, I apologise, but it seems clear that he does obtain, even if he does not wish to do so, these contributions, which are to him a useful form of finance—
    Sir K. Wood: I said that more was paid out than was received.
    Sir J. Mellor: If I have misinterpreted my right hon. Friend, will he kindly explain the matter?
    Sir K. Wood: It is not a matter to be emphasised particularly, because improper inferences may be drawn from it, but I have stated that in fact more has been paid out than has been received.
    Sir J. Mellor: I am aware of that, and I made it clear that the proposal in the Amendment would apply only in years in which the contributions were in excess of the payments. Therefore, I think that, in principle, what I said is right, and that in so far as the Chancellor may in the course of this year collect more in contributions than he has to disburse, he does in fact obtain a loan for nothing.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: I did not intend to speak on this matter, but as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated that the proposal in the Amendment is unbusinesslike, I feel that I ought to say something. I do not understand on what grounds he states that it is unbusinesslike. The proposition seems to me to be a very simple one. At the present time we are to pay over a period of five years, and it is true that a great deal of the property for which compensation will have to be paid will not be put right for many years after the war. Therefore, the Government are holding money upon which they are making no contributions—
    Sir K. Wood indicated dissent.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: The Chancellor does not agree, but obviously he and I are looking at the matter through different spectacles. I want to support this proposition because it is equitable. There is a great deal of talk about equality of sacrifice, but there is no justice or equal sacrifice in this Bill from start to finish. A section of the community has an imposition put upon it which it ought not to have to bear. Why should it be unbusinesslike to provide that this payment should be made over a period of 15 years? Should the war be over in 12 months or two years' time and should there be the labour to undertake the repairs and reconstruction, the Government could impose the statutory obligation for an annual payment for 15 years for the purpose of creating a loan to provide all the money necessary to undertake this work. I cannot understand why the Chancellor should say this is an unbusinesslike proposition. If that is the only reason which my right hon. Friend has
    764
    for not accepting this Amendment, I am not surprised that this Bill does a deli-berate injustice to a certain section of the community.
    Lieutenant Butcher: I do not always see eye to eye with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I think that in this case he is perfectly right. Surely the property owner should know that over the first five years his annual contributions are to be the same. Already the first period has gone, and the facts disclosed by the Chancellor indicate that there is no reason for a refund. The second year is entirely hypothetical. Surely it is desirable that the Treasury should not be paying out more than they receive? If it is right in the first year that the Chancellor should pay more than he receives, it is equitable that in the second year he should receive more than he pays. Under those circumstances I think that the Chancellor is right in not accepting this Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    Major Milner: I beg to move, in page 11, line 13, at the end, to insert:
    "10. Land used for aerodromes, etc., to be liable to lower rate of contribution.

    (1) The proviso to Sub-section (3) of Section twenty (which provides that in the case of the properties specified therein the amount of each instalment of contribution shall be sixpence in every pound of the contributory value) shall apply to a contributory property which consisted throughout the risk period of land used for the purposes of an aerodrome, flying school or landing ground (not being a property consisting solely of buildings or works and the site thereof) and to a property which consisted during part of that period of such land as aforesaid and during the remainder of the period of such land as is described in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of the said Sub-section (3):

    Provided that where the property comprised buildings or works, the buildings or works, and the site thereof, on the one hand, and the remainder on the other hand, shall be treated as separate contributory properties and the contributory value of each ascertained by apportioning what would have been the contributory value of the whole property.

    (2) Any apportionment under this paragraph shall be made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but any person who is aggrieved by any such apportionment may appeal to the Special Commissioners.

    (3) Section twenty-one (which provides for disregarding temporary diversion of land from its normal use) and Sub-section (3) of Section thirty-six (which relates to the procedure on appeals to the Special Commissioners under Part I of the principal Act) shall, with the necessary modifications, apply for the purposes of this paragraph."

    765
    The normal instalment under Part I of the principal Act is at the rate of 2s. in the £, but in certain cases the instalment is reduced to 6d. Those cases include agricultural land and buildings and land used mainly for the purposes of open-air games, racing, recreation and so on, as set out in Section 20 of the principal Act. Most aerodromes include a considerable area of land upon which no works or buildings are provided, which is really included in the aerodrome merely for the purposes of greater convenience, greater safety and so on. The association of Municipal Corporations and a number of other bodies, including the Aerodrome Owners Association, consider that land of that description, which technically cannot be termed agricultural land, should be entitled to the reduced rate of contribution, namely, at 6d. in the £ I may say that if the Amendment is not quite in the proper form, we should be happy to alter it. I think, however, that this is a case which my right hon. Friend might very properly meet.
    Mr. Garro Jones: As I understand that my right hon. Friend contemplates accepting this Amendment, would he say on what principle he does so, and whether the element of increased risk due to proximity to objectives of military importance enters into it, because, if so, I think he will find himself in some difficulty.
    Sir K. Wood: I do not propose to put myself in that difficulty. I propose to advise the Committee to accept this Amendment for the reasons I will give. The Committee will remember that Section 20 (3) and Section 19 (4) of the original Act, taken together, provide that properties used mainly or exclusively for the purposes of open-air games, open-air racing or recreation should pay contributions at the agricultural rate of 6d. in the £, and 2s. in the £ on buildings if the cost of the latter is not less than £5,000. We have received representations from the Aerodrome Owners Association putting forward the case which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) has briefly outlined to the Committee. They have asked for an analogous concession in the following circumstances. As the Committee will appreciate, most of these aerodromes are municipally owned. Practically all of them have been requisitioned for war purposes,
    766
    and those which have not been used for civil flying are now being used for agricultural purposes. Therefore, their case is, in fact, analogous to the exceptions we have already made, and that brings them within the rule which we laid down in the principal Act. It is for that reason that I think it is right that my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment should be accepted.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Sir J. Mellon: I beg to move, in page 12, line 28, at the end, to insert:
    "14. Deferment of payment of contributions in certain cases.

    (1) If in the case of any instalment of contribution in respect of any contributory property the Commissioners of Inland Revenue are satisfied that the net income from the property has been so reduced as a result of any war in which His Majesty may be engaged that it is insufficient to meet such instalment in whole or in part after providing for all outgoings in relation to the property including any interest payable by the direct contributor on any mortgage or mortgages to which the interest of the direct contributor in respect of the property is subject, the collection of the instalment or the part thereof which the net income from the property is insufficient to meet (as the case may be) shall be deferred.

    (2) Any amount the collection of which is deferred in pursuance of the provisions of Subsection (1) of this Section shall not be deferred beyond the first day of July in the year next following the year in which the last of the undeterred instalments in respect of the contributory property in question becomes due.

    (3) The provisions of the principal Act with respect to instalments of contribution and the collection thereof so far as applicable shall extend and apply to any such deferred amount as if it were an undeferred instalment and as if the year to which its collection is postponed were the year in which it originally became payable."

    This Amendment is quite simple and clear in intention and in form. It provides that where the income from property has been so reduced as a result of any war that it is insufficient to meet the outgoings in relation to the property, the collection of the instalments shall be deferred. In paragraph (2) there is a provision limiting the extent to which it can be deferred. I think that the words upon the Order Paper are sufficiently clear and that I need not attempt to summarise the matter further. As I understand it, the "result of any war" would include not only the results of enemy action. Enemy action can result, for instance, in a disclaimer by a tenant so that the income is not only reduced

    767
    but disappears. But there can also be, as a result of war, a requisition by the Government which may involve a reduction of income to the owner, either because his tenant in certain circumstances has a right to disclaim, or otherwise. Then there are the cases in which the property is situated in an evacuation area, defence area or protected area. In all those cases the owner may be seriously embarrassed as a result of loss of income from the property, and, if the Chancellor can see his way to make some concession, it would be very helpful.
    There is only one line of logical objection to the Amendment, which I think would be very academic. If the income from the property is reduced to such an extent that, after meeting outgoings, there is nothing left to provide for the contributions, then the owner can provide them only by resort to other income or by resort to other forms of capital. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might make an academic objection to the Amendment on the ground that the contribution is designed as a capital charge to secure a capital asset and therefore the income of the property is neither here nor there. If he should take that line I think it would be a very cruel one. Indeed I do not think he ought to stand too much on logic, because the Bill from start to finish is illogical and anomalous. Therefore, I hope he will see his way to accept the practical advantages of the Amendment, in whatever form he may prefer to have it and make some concession.
    Captain Crookshank: I am sorry to have to give an academic reply. My hon. Friend was not far wrong in his forecast. Someone must have seen my notes on the Bill because this is the second time that intelligent anticipation has been directed to my answer. We have held, ever since we first started on this scheme in the principal Act, that the contributions were in the nature of capital contributions and not income.
    Sir J. Mellor: Was not the real reason for that, one which had nothing to do with the question of property at all, but with the question of Income Tax, because my right hon. Friend did not wish that the contributions should be treated as an
    768
    expense for the purpose of assessment to Income Tax?
    Captain Crookshank: That is another story. Generally, we have taken the view that these contributions are outgoings of a capital nature. That has been our principle right through. My hon. Friend's case is that, supposing the net income from the property has been so reduced as the result of the war that there is not enough to pay the contributions, there should be deferment. But we have never held that the contributions should necessarily be found out of the income of the property. I think this is the first time that that thesis has been put forward. The contributions are, in fact, to safeguard the capital interest and if, from the income of the property, there is not enough at the moment to find the contributions, one naturally would expect that it would be found from any other resource that might be available.
    My hon. Friend may say there are no other resources. There may or may not be, but if there are real cases of hardship the Inland Revenue is always prepared to consider any proposals in an individual case, and that is as far as one can go in the matter of deferment. If for some reason or other the owner simply cannot pay his contribution, let him make that case to the Inland Revenue and he will not find them unsympathetic, but that is quite different from the sweeping statement that in any case where there is no income from the property the contribution should be deferred. The owner may have a large income from somewhere else from which he can easily pay his contribution. That is where the Movers of the Amendment have gone wrong. It may quite well be that the owner is embarrassed by the loss of the income of the property, but it does not necessarily follow that he is in a position of such hardship that he cannot pay at all, because he may have other resources. If, however, he can plead hardship and can convince the Inland Revenue, he will be treated kindly. I can give that assurance because I have been in correspondence with Members in specific cases and that has in fact been done. That being so, I could not suggest acceptance of the Amendment.
    Amendment negatived.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 12, line 32, at the end, to insert:

    769
    "15. Application of principal Act to elementary schools transferred to local education authority.

    (1) Where an elementary school has been transferred to the local education authority for elementary education under section thirty-eight of the Education Act, 1921, or under section twenty-three of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, and section twenty-five of and the Second Schedule to the Education Act, 1902, or the authority has an interest in the premises of such a school under a lease granted whether by virtue of a scheme made under the Charitable Trusts Acts, 1853 to 1925, or otherwise, the Board of Education may, with the consent of the authority and of the trustees of the school, by order made as respects the whole or any part of the premises of the school direct that the provisions of the principal Act relating to the recovery and ultimate incidence of instalments of contribution and to payments in respect of war damage under Part I thereof shall apply as if the premises of the school, or the part thereof to which the order relates, as the case may be, were vested in the authority for all the interest therein belonging to the trustees or otherwise held in trust for the school.

    (2) In relation to a case where the transfer or lease affects part only of the premises of the school, sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall apply as if the references to the premises of the school were references to that part of the premises.

    (3) An order made under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph may, with the consent of the authority and of the trustees, be revoked by an order of the Board of Education either as respects the whole or as respects any part of the land affected by the order revoked; and an order under the said sub-paragraph (1) shall cease to have effect on the termination of the rights of the authority under the transfer or the interest of the authority under the lease:

    Provided that the revocation of the order, whether in whole or in part, or its ceasing to have effect, shall not affect any liability in respect of an instalment of contribution for a year the relevant date in which fell before the time when the order was revoked or ceased to have effect, or any right to payment in respect of war damage occurring before that time.

    (4) An order made under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall apply as well in relation to an instalment of contribution for a year the relevant date in which fell between the transfer, or the commencement of the interest of the authority, as the case may be, and the date of the making of the order but not discharged at that date as in relation to an instalment of contribution for a year the relevant date in which falls after that date.

    (5) An order made under this paragraph shall, unless the contrary is shown, be presumed to have been made with the consent of the authority and trustees concerned.

    (6) In this paragraph the expression 'premises,' in relation to a school, has the same meaning as in the Fourth Schedule to the Education Act, 1921; and where successive in-
    770
    terests are granted to an authority without any interval between the termination of one and the commencement of the next, the successive interests shall be treated for the purposes of this paragraph as one interest commencing at the commencement of the earliest interest."

    This is to enable certain arrangements to be made, if the various parties concerned are anxious to make them, affecting the share of the contribution to fall on the local education authority and the trustees of certain non-provided schools. There are cases in which, under one Statute or another, a non-provided school has been transferred to the local education authority in circumstances in which it is contemplated that the local education authority in fact pays outgoings and keeps up the building. The legal position very often does not represent the realities of the situation. In some cases the local education authority are in possession merely under a licence, and therefore, in law, the trustees can turn them out to-morrow, though in fact it is contemplated that they should remain as they are, as long as the building remains and is used as a school. In other cases there is a lease of perhaps 21 years. In many, I daresay in all these cases the local education authority agrees that the contributions ought to fall on them rather than on the trustees, who are as it were the mere holders of the freehold, or in some cases merely leaseholders.
    The trouble is that, under the Bill as it stands, an undertaking by the occupying tenant to pay outgoings does not apply to War Damage contribution and that is not to be treated as an outgoing for the purpose of a covenant with regard to outgoings in the lease. There are also provisions which impede the arrangement as to the sharing of contributions otherwise than in accordance with the Act. Therefore, all that this rather long Amendment does is to say that, notwithstanding those provisions of the Bill and the Act, if the local education authority is agreeable that it should pay the whole of the contributions or come to some arrangement with the trustees acceptable to both, they are able to do so subject to approval by the Board of Education, and the contribution will, in fact, then be paid according to the realities of the situation not hampered, as it is at present, by the actual form which these transactions have taken.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Creech Jones: I beg to move, page 12, line 32, at the end, to insert:
    "15. Land belonging to National Trusts.

    (1) The provisions of sub-paragraphs (2) to (5) of this paragraph shall have effect where the following conditions are satisfied as respects the whole or part of a contributory property at the relevant date in any year or as respect the whole or part of a hereditament immediately before the occurrence of war damage to the hereditament, that is to say, that the fee simple absolute in possession therein belongs either—

    (a) to the National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty incorporated by the National Trust Act, 1907; or

    (b) to the National Trust for Scotland for Places of Historic Interest or Natural Beauty incorporated under the National Trust for Scotland Order Confirmation Act, 1935;

    and is held inalienably by them, and that no tenancy which is a proprietary interest is subsisting therein.

    (2) Where the said conditions are satisfied as respects the whole of a contributory property, no instalment of contribution shall be payable in respect of the property for the year in which the relevant date falls.

    (3) Where the said conditions are satisfied as respects part of a contributory property, the instalment of contribution in respect of the property for the year in which the relevant date falls shall be apportioned between that part and the rest of the property in such proportions as the Commissioners of Inland Revenue may determine, and—

    (a) the provisions of the preceding subparagraph shall have effect as if that part were a separate contributory property; and

    (b) the provisions of the principal Act relating to the recovery and the ultimate incidence of instalments of contributions shall have effect as if the rest of the property were a separate contributory property and as if the part of the instalment apportioned thereto were an instalment in respect thereof.

    Any person who is aggrieved by an apportionment made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue under this sub-paragraph' may appeal to the Special Commissioners; and subsection (3) of section thirty-six (which relates to the procedure on an appeal to the Special Commissioners) shall apply as if the reference therein to such an appeal included a reference to an appeal under this sub-paragraph.

    (4). Where the said conditions are satisfied as respects the whole of a hereditament, no payment shall be made under the principal Act in respect of the damage thereto.

    (5) Where the said conditions are satisfied as respects part of a hereditament, any value payment in respect of the damage shall be reduced by such amount as the Commission may determine to be attributable to the damage to that part and the remainder of the value payment shall be paid as if it were a value payment in respect of damage to a
    772
    separate hereditament consisting of the remainder of the hereditament.

    (6) Section forty-three shall be omitted."

    I do not pretend to know very much about the technicalities of this long Amendment, and I am not very familiar with the jargon which is employed, but I have been asked to bring it to the notice of the Committee in the light of what has been happening recently in respect to certain of the National Trust properties. Bath Assembly Rooms and Eastbury Manor House, which are let to Bath Corporation and Barking Corporation respectively, have suffered damage recently. The National Trust were exempted by Section 43 of the War Damage Act from making contributions or receiving payments in respect of their inalienable properties. The proposal in the Amendment is that the Act should be made applicable to any tenancies of a property of the Trust longer than seven years. This, broadly speaking, is the way Crown property was treated under Section 37 of the Act. Where there is a tenant with a proprietary interest in a part of a contributory property the Commission are to apportion the contributions. The Amendment will correct a flaw in the Act and be retrospective with regard to both contribution and compensation, and it is a fair way of saying how these properties should be treated. I believe that there has been some discussion with the Treasury about this matter, and I hope that in spite of my inadequate knowledge of it the Chancellor will favourably receive the Amendment to make good what I believe was intended when the Act was originally drafted.
    Mr. Denman: I should like to support the Amendment. The National Trust had a special Clause in the main Act whereby it was contracted out of both contributions and benefit. That, no doubt, was a reasonable enough provision where property was widely spread, but it was not reasonable in the case of persons who had taken long leases from the National Trust and owned long leasehold interests in isolated properties. It is to remedy that defect that this Amendment is moved. There will be three classes of case. There will be the property in possession of the National Trust, which will remain without contribution and benefit; there will be the property partly contributory and partly non-contributory if let on long leases, and in

    773
    those cases the division between the two categories will be made by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue; and the third class will be the long leaseholder who may very well have spent considerable capital sums on the development of the property and who will be covered in the ordinary way, that is to say, he will both contribute and receive benefit. The Amendment is moved in order to bring about that change in the existing position.
    Mr. Charles Williams: Many of us who take a considerable interest in the work of the National Trust feel that anything should be done to help forward the movement. If the Trust has to find sums of any amount to pay war damage contributions, it will limit the amount which it will have for further development, As there are no Scottish Members taking part in this Debate, I feel that I should make a special appeal on behalf of many places in Scotland which might well come under the National Trust. If this Amendment is carried, it is likely to give an impetus to that movement which might be helpful to many people who have interests in Scotland.
    Sir K. Wood: For reasons given by my two hon. Friends, I shall be happy on behalf of the Government to advise the Committee to accept the Amendment. It is a fact that since we dealt with the matter last time it has been ascertained that a minority of the tenants hold on long leases from the National Trust, and they have a substantial interest in the financial matters at stake. This Amendment has been moved to meet those cases.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Flight-Lieutenant Ralph Etherton: I beg to move, in page 12, line 32, at the end, to insert:
    "15. Exclusion from Section 40 of hereditaments privately owned.
    At the end of subsection (6) of section forty the following subsection shall be inserted,—
    ' (7) The provisions of this section shall not apply to a hereditament not owned by an undertaking to which this section, applies.' "
    This Amendment will put right what is a manifest injustice. Anyone who is unfortunate enough to have as tenant a public utility undertaking is, under Section 40, deprived of all compensation. In my constituency and in many parts of the country there are persons who own warehouses
    774
    and other properties occupied by public utility undertakings. In my constituency there were four such warehouses, of which three have been destroyed and one badly damaged. The public utility undertaking which is the tenant has disclaimed the leases, as it is entitled to do. The property, therefore, falls back on the landlord, who is a private owner and who has no means of getting any compensation or even any consideration for his claim. I understand that a Bill has been proposed to deal with public utility undertakings. It was proposed many months ago, it has been long deferred, and there does not appear to be any real intention of proceeding with it. I hope that this is an opportunity which the Chancellor will think it right to take to put in order a grave injustice to private owners who are so unfortunate as to have public utility undertakings as tenants.
    Captain Crookshank: My hon. and gallant Friend is right in reminding the Committee that it is the Government's intention in due course to introduce legislation with regard to the war damage aspect of public utility undertakings. My right hon. Friend referred to that in his Second Reading speech by saying that this Bill and the amendments which it makes to the principal Act did not deal with Section 40 of that Act. That remains to be dealt with under the fresh legislation. My hon. and gallant Friend expresses the fear that we have no real intention of proceeding with that legislation, but I can assure him that he is wrong. We have every intention to proceed. In fact, it is very necessary, because until that legislation is through, public utility undertakings cannot know where they stand in this matter. It is a very complex question. My right hon. Friend has from time to time given answers in the House on the subject. There has to be and there will be legislation dealing with it. It follows, therefore, that any legislation of that kind will have to clear up a lot of points which are left in the air by Section 40 of the principal Act. The definition and scope of any new arrangement of payments to or contributions from people who have interest in public utility property will fall to be discussed and settled then. It would not help matters if we accepted the Amendment and dealt with one little corner of

    775
    the problem without seeing the whole picture. My hon. and gallant Friend can take it from me that there will be legislation dealing with public utilities.
    Sir H. Williams: My right hon. and gallant Friend says that we cannot deal with this point until we see the whole picture, but the right hon. Gentleman who is going to paint the picture is sitting on the Government Front Bench. The public utilities have not been holding him up. I have some connection with the electric supply industry, and I am certain that that industry has not held him up. Indeed, we submitted a scheme before the principal Act was introduced. There is no doubt some branch of public utilities which is holding up the rest, and it will help us to know who is causing the delay. It has been all but two years since urgent representations were made by, I think, the gas industry, and I know by the electric industry, that something should be done, but we are still going on in this continued state of uncertainty. Nobody knows where they are or what their obligations are. I think the Chancellor ought to give us some closer indication of when something is to be done.
    Sir K. Wood: As my right hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary has said, this matter is not without its difficulties and complexities. For some time now representatives of the Treasury have been conferring with representatives of the public utility undertakings concerned. I would not myself subscribe to the suggestion that any of them are holding up this business, because I think they are as anxious as the Treasury is, and as this Committee is, to have the matter settled, but, as I say, it is full of difficulties. I am glad to say that I think general conclusions have now been reached upon the major matters which will be dealt with in the Bill. I have not come to any conclusion in the matter, but I am considering whether, having regard to the complexities of a Bill of that character, it would not be as well to make it available to Members of the House and those concerned before I. formally present it to the House for Second Reading, in order to see whether they desire to make any suggestions to me about it. That is often a convenient course to take when dealing with matters of this kind, and it may very well facilitate the passage of the Bill. But I am glad to say
    776
    that considerable progress has been made, that I think all have done their best to make a contribution to the solution of the problem, and that I am not unhopeful that we shall be able soon to bring the Bill before the House.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: When the Chancellor of the Exchequer says "soon," does he contemplate our getting a stage further with it, at any rate, if not passing it, before the summer Recess?
    Sir K. Wood: I should not like to commit myself to that, but if I adopt the procedure which I have indicated, I can do that almost immediately and let Members of the House see the proposals at their present stage.
    Mr. Silkin: Will not that save time in the long run?
    Sir K. Wood: I think so.
    Flight-Lieutenant Etherton: Could the Chancellor say whether there is a possibility of the Bill being introduced this year?
    Sir K. Wood: I have been dealing with that point. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend can have heard what I said.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: May I say that the Waterworks Association cordially associate themselves with what has been said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject?
    Sir K. Wood: I am glad to help the waterworks.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: May we understand that if and when the Bill is introduced any defects to which attention has been called in this Amendment will not only be remedied but will be retrospectively remedied, so that the delay which there has been in dealing with them will not inure to the hardship of the persons concerned?
    Sir K. Wood: We shall, of course, have to take that into consideration.
    Flight-Lieutenant Etherton: In view of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Financial Secretary have said I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    The Attorney-General: I beg to move, in page 12, line 34; at the end, to insert:
    16. Share of value payment to be attributed to buildings or works belonging to person not having a proprietary interest.
    Where a value payment is to be made in respect of war damage to a hereditament and at the date by reference to which the disposal of the payment is to be regulated there is on the hereditament a building or work, not being an article to which the provisions of Subsection (4) of Section forty-six apply, which a person had a right to remove so as to be entitled on removing it to it or to the materials of it, or which a person not having a proprietary interest in the hereditament had' placed thereon and could have been required to remove, and either—

    (a) there was subsisting in the building or work a proprietary interest owned otherwise than by that person, or owned by him otherwise than in a capacity in which he had a right to remove it as aforesaid (being an interest against which his right to remove it, or the right to require him to remove it, was exercisable); or

    (b) the building or work was included in a mortgage of a proprietary interest in the hereditament, and his right to remove it, or the right to require him to remove it, was exercisable against the mortgagee;

    the provisions of the said Sub-section (4) shall have effect in relation to the building or work with the substitution of references thereto and to this Sub-section for references to the article and to that Sub-section, and as if references to, a right to remove included references to an obligation, to remove."
    Sub-section (4) of Section 46 of the original Act provided for a case in which there was on damaged property before the damage occurred a fixture which, say, A.B. would have had the right to remove if it had not been blown up but which, owing to the legal position, was vested in C.D. and where, but for the provisions in this Sub-section, the value payment would have gone to C.D. and A.B. would not have got the quota appropriate to his original right to take away the fixture. What this Amendment does is to extend that principle to certain buildings as distinct from fixtures, because it has come to light that there are a number of small buildings or works which do not come within the words used in Sub-section (4) of Section 46 of the original Act but which are in a similar position in that the person who put them up—it may be the licensee or short tenant—would have had the right to remove them at a certain time if the bomb had not blown them up. It is right, therefore, that there should be provision for the appropriate proportion
    778
    of the value payment to be paid to him in respect of that right.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I beg to move, in page 12, line 34, at the end, to insert:
    16. Provision as to extent of indemnity under the private chattels scheme.
    In paragraph (a) of Sub-section (2) of Section fifty-nine there shall be added the words:
    ' Provided that any policy of insurance under the private chattels scheme shall provide for the determination of the extent of the indemnity by reference not only to the value of the goods but also to the cost of replacement.' "
    In this Amendment, which relates to the private chattels scheme, the words have been chosen with great care. They do not lay down in precise terms the standards by which the indemnity shall be valued, but they give an indication. The Amendment deals with a very human problem, which I will put in rather simple words. There may be an old couple who have a small house and certain simple furniture bought, perhaps, 15 or 20 years ago. Let us say that they paid £5 for some particular piece of furniture or utensil in the house. That was 15 or 20 years ago, and there has been a depreciation in its value since then, and some figure like £3 would probably represent its current value. Meanwhile, however, owing to all sorts of causes, the price of a similar article has gone up, and they could not effectively replace it for the £3, and not even for the £5, because very likely the modern price would be £8 or £10, and to that has to be added Purchase Tax. Therefore, if they bought a new article of the same kind to serve their purpose as well as the old article—which may have been knocked about a bit but was still perfectly good—they might have to pay £12 or £13. It is true that when these damages are being evaluated the Purchase Tax is added, and that therefore they get a little more than the £5 which was the depreciated value of the article, but that does not go any way towards paying for its replacement. Large numbers of people are in this position, that when the contents of their houses are destroyed they are provided with a sum of money which will not go anything like all the way to provide them with a home such as they had before. Though the State is generously undertaking in theory to replace chattels, large numbers of householders

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    find that they cannot replace the contents of their houses with the money which is given to them in compensation.
    As I pointed out, we do not say in the Amendment that they are to have exactly the replacement value of their stuff but that the replacement value shall be taken into account, and some sort of happy compromise arrived at which will give them some chance of establishing their house again, if not to the full extent at any rate to some partial extent, and that they should not be left without means of living. The Amendment has been put down to obtain a sympathetic attitude towards that class of person.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Captain Waterhouse): The right hon. Gentleman referred to this as a very human problem, and indeed it is, but it is not quite as simple of solution as he led the Committee to suppose. There seem to be three bases on which one can assess compensation or payment in an insurance scheme. The first is on the cost of the article when new, a cost that is known; the second is on the replacement value at the date of the loss, also a cost that is known; the third is the actual value at the date of the loss, which would be the replacement value minus something for wear and tear. Each of those is fairly simple to decide. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that we should find means now of assessing a sum of money which will buy, at some future, and as yet undetermined, date, articles comparable to those destroyed. We do not know, of course, how long the war will last, and we cannot say precisely how soon after the end of the war it will be possible to make all those payments. It will be very difficult to lay down any hard-and-fast rule, and that is a difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman no doubt appreciates.
    If he agrees that it is impossible so to fix the matter, he may be satisfied if I say that the Government have in mind the possibility of hardships arising to persons of modest resources, if the price level at the date of the payment differs materially from that on which compensation was based. While it would not be right, in the Government's view, to call on the general taxpayer to find money to pay additional compensation for the replacement of articles which are not
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    necessary for a reasonable standard of life, the Government will be prepared to consider, should the post-war price level and other circumstances require it, the adequacy of the compensation in the case of the small man. I hope that that general assurance will satisfy the right hon. Gentleman. As I say, the case he has put is hypothetical. We are aware in the Board of Trade of this increase of prices and are doing our best to stop it. We have recently produced a Furniture Prices Order, and it may well be—in fact, there are reasonable grounds for hoping—that within a very short period after the war, possibly of weeks or months, furniture may be materially cheaper than it is to-day. Bearing that possibility in mind, and in view of the general assurance that I have been able to give to my right hon. Friend, I hope he will feel able to refrain from pressing his Amendment.
    Mr. Douglas: This is a matter which has caused very great anxiety to a large number of people who have lost their homes and all their furniture. I have received many complaints about it. They have been met by officers of the Board of Trade shortly after sustaining the damage, and while they were living with friends or elsewhere, and have been offered a lump sum of £50 or £60. That has appeared at first sight to be quite a large sum of money, and they have accepted it. Then, when they find accommodation in which to set up a house once more, they discover that the money which they have agreed to accept is totally inadequate to supply them with the bare minimum essential for a home. I should like to know upon what principles the officers of the Board of Trade have hitherto settled these claims. Is it upon the basis of original cost; of a depreciated value, or of replacement? I think we ought to know, because so far as I can discover there has been no settled principle at all in dealing with these claims, and in a very great many cases, at any rate, the price appears to have been based on a depreciated value. That is all very well in abstract theory. If people were dealing in furniture and were concerned in buying and selling, then certainly they should have nothing more than what they could reasonably expect to get upon the market. But the circumstances of the average working-class household are very different from

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    that. A family in the course of many years will gradually acquire sufficient furniture to meet their requirements, and it is perfectly true that if it were thrown upon the market, it might be worth very little because of its dilapidated or second-hand condition, but in order to replace it a very large sum of money may be required. Really the matter ought to be considered on the basis of trying to save these people from suffering unfairly and unduly in comparison with other people from the hardships of the war, and of re-instating them in a position in which they can lead their lives as before.
    Mr. Bellenger: I would like to add a plea to the remarks made by my right hon. Friend and by my hon. Friend the Member for North Battersea (Mr. Douglas). The answer given by my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade is not, I think, quite satisfactory. He is deferring consideration of this matter to the end of the war. But that may be a long distance ahead, and there have been so many people who have lost all their goods and chattels that I do not think it comes to a question of money. We have raised the issue in regard to the homes of the people, and we cannot neglect the goods and chattels which go to make up any happy home, and I would suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend that, even if it is a question of money, when we are spending as liberally as we are to-day on destruction we can well afford to spare something for reconstruction, and so avoid the morale of these people being depressed or at any rate ensure that their morale is improved, and also the war effort. I hope he will not defer it too far into the distant future, but that he will give it much more immediate consideration.
    Sir Edward Grigg: I should like to add a plea for more generous treatment for these people. The House of Commons is deeply concerned in this matter; if I remember rightly, when this Measure was originally introduced, the Prime Minister made a particular point of the fact that we should do our utmost to see that loss and suffering were as equally shared as possible in the terrible conditions in which we are now forced to live. I believe that that was universally applauded in the House.
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    There was the strongest possible support for the most generous possible treatment for those who suffered in air raids, particularly those with small means. I do not quite understand how far the pledge of the Parliamentary Secretary went. It sounded very vague to me, and I think it would be to the honour of the House of Commons to get a rather more precise undertaking from him as to what is going to be done.
    Mr. A. C. Reed: I wish strongly to support what has been said by the last speakers, having come from a city which has been very badly blitzed. I know the position of these people. What they want is to be able to buy some furniture immediately. They want money immediately. If I may say so with all deference to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Board of Trade do not come to a settlement. These people want money and furniture particularly, so that they can restore some sort of home. It is very difficult when you go to these people who have lost everything if they cannot reestablish themselves in some sort of home. They want payment immediately, and they want to be able to replace the goods they have lost. I would urge something more definite from the Board of Trade so that these people may know their position. Delays which are taking place in any sort of settlement are rather upsetting the morale of the people. They stand up to the blitz, but it is their position afterwards which is concerning them.
    Flight-Lieutenant Ralph Etherton: I would like to add my plea for more generous treatment in cases like this. Would it be possible to adopt this principle when making a payment on account?
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Before the hon. and gallant Gentleman gets up, may I say that we want something a little more definite than has been stated? He spoke as if it was to be left over until after the war. It is here and now that we want something.
    Captain Waterhouse: I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. Here and now the replacement value is the value adopted. There is no question of what a thing has cost. The value taken by the assessors is the value at which a similar article can be purchased in the shops at the time of the loss. Our assessors have very definite instructions. They have to assure themselves

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    that they are allotting sufficient money for these purposes. There is no question at all of any instruction to cut payments, and if any Member can give me any cases in which payments have been so cut, I will most gladly look into them. I can assure the Committee that from our general experience our assessors give satisfaction by and large. Many cases are dealt with, and, generally speaking, I believe that the country is satisfied that these cases are dealt with on a fair and reasonable basis. The hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Reed) said that in his constituency prompt payment was wanted. There again provision is made for prompt payment through the Assistance Board, and in many cases the assistance they give exceeds the amount of the damage. That is not the point raised in the Amendment. The hon. Member was grumbling, as I understood it, not about the payments made to-day, but was looking forward to some future period after the war to a rather different basis of valuation, when the assessments made to-day might prove to be inadequate. It was on that I endeavoured to give an assurance which had to be vague, but was nevertheless a categorical
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    assurance of what we intended to do if the case arose.
    Sir H. Williams: May I ask the Chancellor whether it is intended to suggest that on the next Sitting day we should have one comprehensive Debate on the mortgagee and mortgagor question?
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: In view of the pledge given that there is elasticity in the handling of this matter I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Major Sir James Edmondson.]
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Sir J. Edmondson.]