Commons Sitting of 4 February 1942

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  GRAND UNION CANAL COMPANY.
  Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [18th December]:
  "That the Grand Union Canal Company be relieved from the obligation to promote not later than the Session of 1946 a Bill to consolidate the Acts relating to the several parts of their undertaking and the obligation to promote not later than the Session of 1944 an Amending Bill with a view to facilitating the task of consolidation, being obligations to which the Company are subject by virtue of a promise given in the proceedings before the Committee to which the Regent's Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Bill was referred in the year 1928 as varied by resolutions passed by this House on the 12th day of July, 1932, the 27th day of July, 1937, and the 27th day of June, 1940."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
  Further adjourned till the Second Sitting Day after 15th February.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  ANGLO-SOVIET-PERSIAN TREATY OF ALLIANCE.
  Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is able to state the position with regard to the Anglo-Russian-Iranian Treaty of Alliance?
  The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Eden): Yes, Sir. I am glad to say that the Anglo-Soviet-Persian Treaty of Alliance, which was approved by the Persian Parliament on Monday, 26th January, was signed in Tehran on behalf of the three Governments on Thursday, 29th January. The Treaty entered into force on signature.
  The large majority by which the Treaty was approved in the Persian Parliament shows that it has gained the free assent of the elected representatives of the Persian nation. It is a justification of
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  the patience with which the long and sometimes difficult negotiations have been conducted by all concerned. I should like to take this opportunity of extending a cordial welcome to our new Ally. The full text of the Treaty is being laid as a White Paper. Copies will be available to hon. Members to-day. It will be seen that the Treaty provides for the grant of those facilities which the British and Soviet authorities have considered necessary for the prosecution of the war. It covers, for example, the facilities to be provided in Persia for the passage of troops and supplies, for the maintenance and improvement of the means of communication, and for censorship control. I should also like to emphasise, as is explicitly laid down in the Treaty, that His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government undertake to respect the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Persia. They have no designs or ambitions which would conflict with this principle.
  Mr. Mander: Will facilities be granted to the Persian Government to sign the declaration made by 26 Sates against the Axis?
  Mr. Eden: It is open to any Power which intends to employ its full resources in the struggle with the Allies to inform the United States Government if it wishes to adhere to the Declaration.

  ENEMY OCCUPIED COUNTRIES (ALLIES' AGREEMENTS).
  Dr. Russell Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information in regard to the Agreement made between the Governments of Greece and Yugoslavia, and the Agreement made between the Governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia which, among other matters, involves a common economic policy and the proposal for a Customs union?
  Mr. Eden: As my hon. Friend is aware, the Agreement between Greece and Yugoslavia was signed in the Foreign Office on 15th January, and I am glad to have this opportunity of welcoming an Agreement which cements the friendly relations already existing between two Allied Governments and which affords a basis for a future Balkan Confederation. The text

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  of the Agreement has already been published, and there is nothing that I can add to it.
  The text of the Polish-Czechoslovak Agreement has also been published. In reply to a Question by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Manner) on 26th November, 1940, the Prime Minister said that His Majesty's Government warmly welcomed the original Polish-Czechoslovak Declaration of 11th November, 1940. They equally welcome this new Agreement as marking a further important stage in the development of closer relations between these two Allies.
  Dr. Thomas: Without attempting to make any difficulty for my right hon. Friend, may I ask whether he will be good enough, when he has consultations with the Allied Governments, to look at the point of view that economic blocks may be a hindrance to post-war trade and possibly sow the seeds of future European trouble?
  Mr. Eden: It is difficult to pursue a counsel of perfection in these matters. I am convinced that the Greek-Yugoslav Agreement is very much a step in the right direction.
  Mr. Noel-Baker: Are we right in thinking that it is the intention of the Governments which honour the Agreement that it shall be open to all other Balkan countries to adhere to it as soon as they have democratic and peace-loving Govern-meats? Is it their intention that this should be an organisation within a wider framework for the suppression of aggression and the maintenance of peace?
  Mr. Eden: It is difficult to answer for other Governments, but what I can say for sure is that this Greek-Yugoslav Treaty is definitely to form the basis of a Balkan Confederation.

  ROYAL AIR FORCE.

    DIVE BOMBERS.
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Secretary of State for Air whether this country has produced any substantial number of dive-bombing aeroplanes and has them in operation; and whether they equal in performance the Junkers 88 and Stukas?
    The Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair): Specialised dive bombers are being produced for the Royal Air Force in America. There is good reason to suppose that their performance will be satisfactory, but every new type must be tested in action before comparisons with other types can be safely made.
    Mr. Purbrick: Am I to understand we are not producing any dive-bombing machines for use either by sea or land?
    Sir A. Sinclair: As to the sea, any question about the Fleet Air Arm should be addressed to the Admiralty. Dive bombers for the R.A.F. are now being produced in America.
    Mr. Purbrick: Have we none of them in operation then?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, I think it was clear from my previous answer that they are not yet in Royal Air Force squadrons.

    PILOTS (AGE LIMIT).
    Mr. Bowerasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that an Aviation Candidates Selection Board recently rejected a 29-year-old volunteer for pilots' duties, principally on the ground that in their experience the borderline age was 27, and that the members of the board furthermore expressed the opinion that, in this respect, the Air Ministry's present series of advertisement appeals for pilots up to the age of 31 should be amended; and whether he proposes to take any action to that effect?
    Sir A. Sinclair: No, Sir; suitable candidates are accepted for pilot duties up to the age of 31. If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars of the case referred to, I will have it looked into.

    AERODROMES.
    Mr. Hall-Caineasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied that all the aerodromes which accept aircraft for shipment overseas are in a comparable condition to first-class operational stations?
    Sir A. Sinclair: While it is not necessary that these aerodromes should be of the same standard as operational aerodromes, I am advised that those used for accepting aircraft for shipment have proved generally satisfactory for this purpose.

    OFFICERS' ALLOWANCES.
    Sir Adam Maitlandasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is aware that, for childless married officers over 30 years of age in the Royal Air Force, a new scale of allowances has been introduced since 1st January, 1942; that the reductions in some cases amount to 3s. 6d. a day; that, in order to induce officers under 30 to agree to accept the reductions when they reach the age of 30, present allowances have been increased by 1s. a day; that many married officers under 30 have been forced by necessity to undertake to accept the lower scale upon reaching the age of 30; and if he will reconsider this new scale?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The changes recently introduced in the system of officers' allowances which are common to all three Services and the reasons for them were very fully explained by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War in his reply to my hon. Friends the Members for Wallsend (Miss Ward) and Tamworth (Sir J. Mellor) on 9th September, 1941. There is no intention of amending the new scale which was the subject of most careful consideration before it was adopted.
    Sir A. Maitland: Is it true that in certain cases the effect of the change is to make matters worse than they were before, and, if that is so, will the right hon. Gentleman have another look at it?
    Sir A. Sinclair: Certainly, if the hon. Gentleman will give me any instances in which that is so, I shall be glad to look into them.

    BARRAGE BALLOON SITES (PROTECTION).
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Secretary of State for Air whether he is satisfied with the present arrangements for the security of barrage balloon sites; and whether units of the Royal Air Force Regiment will be attached to balloon command for this purpose?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes, Sir." As regards the second part, it would not be in the public interest to discuss the tactical disposition of the Royal Air Force Regiment.
    Mr. Simmonds: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there is a well-defined system of liaison between the
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    Royal Air Force and the Home Guard in regard to the protection of these sites?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The relations of the Home Guard are with the Army rather than with the Royal Air Force, but I will look into the point and see whether more help should be obtained from them.

    DISTINCTIVE BADGES (CROWN COLONIES).
    Captain McEwenasked the Secretary of State for Air why it is that Royal Air Force personnel from the Crown Colonies, as distinct from those from the Dominions, are not allowed to wear a distinctive badge bearing the name of the Colony from which they come?
    Sir A. Sinclair: The wearing of a distinguishing badge is restricted to personnel from the overseas Dominions concerned in the Commonwealth Joint Air Training Plan and from Allied countries. I have received no evidence of a general desire on the part of men from the Colonial Dependencies for such badges, and it is desirable to avoid the undue multiplicity of badges.
    Captain McEwen: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that much feeling is caused by the fact that many of these men come here wearing these badges and are told to take them off? Would it not be at least a gracious gesture to permit this distinction?
    Sir A. Sinclair: I understand that there are at least as many men who do not want to be decorated with these badges as there are who do. There are people who are pressing a very great multiplicity of badges upon us. One firm was recently offering for sale badges for Eire, Scotland, Wales, Jersey, and B.I.A.V., which I understand means British Latin American Volunteers.

  AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION.

    AERONAUTICAL INSPECTION DEPARTMENT.
    Mr. Hall-Caineasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he is aware that delays in the delivery of aircraft are due to the slackness and inefficiency of the Aircraft Inspection Department; what complaints he has received regarding this Department; and what steps he is taking to remedy the position?
    The Minister of Aircraft Production (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon): I am unable to accept my hon. Friend's suggestion of slackness and inefficiency on the part of the Aeronautical Inspection Department; nor am I aware of any well-founded recent complaints against that Department. If, however, my hon. Friend will let me know what he has in mind, I will look into the matter.
    Mr. Hall-Caine: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise that many of the members of the Aeronautical Inspection Department are holding up valuable material through their refusal to work on Saturday afternoons and Sundays? Will he look into it?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I will certainly look into it. Owing to the recent weather the Aeronautical Inspection Department has had a great strain put on it, but on the whole I am very satisfied with it. I know that inspection is a tiresome thing, but it has saved many lives.
    Mr. Graham White: Has the inspection Department been increased to correspond with the increase in the volume of work it has had to do, and has my right hon. and gallant Friend any difficulty in obtaining competent people to carry out the work on the standard that we had in the earlier stages? If he has any difficulty, will he advertise and make every effort to obtain proper personnel?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: We are not dissatisfied with the personnel; indeed, we are extremely pleased with it. We have increased the numbers.
    Mr. Simmonds: Is not the Aeronautical Inspection Department very much overworked, and, taking this into consideration, is it not doing a splendid job of work?

    ENGINE REPAIR FACTORY.
    Mr. Ness Edwardsasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he is aware that a certain aero-engine reconditioning factory has not been working to more than 10 per cent. capacity during the last four weeks; and whether he has any plan whereby these works may be continuously employed up to a reasonable capacity?
    Lieut. -Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I am aware that this factory was working below
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    its full capacity during January, but the falling off was nothing like the extent indicated by my hon. Friend. It was due mainly to the drop in the number of engines coming forward for repair. The position at this factory is being rectified by the diversion to it of engines normally repaired by other factories where alternative work is available.
    Mr. Edwards: Is not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that in the past three months this factory has been working to very low capacity, and that the men have been kept kicking their heels for weeks on end?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: The repair situation is always difficult, because I never know what the supply is going to be. In this particular works I am sending engines so as to keep them on full load capacity and changing the supply of engines to factories nearer London. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that that is the best way to deal with a difficult situation.
    Mr. Kirkwood: Is not the rumour prevalent that in this factory the men are going about kicking their heels?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Sometimes it is very nice to think that there are no engines to repair, but I am rather swung between the two positions—wanting to keep the workpeople busy and pleased that there are no crashes and no engines to repair. I am often in that cleft stick. I cannot guarantee that factories that mend anything will be full to capacity. On the other hand, I must keep an efficient repair unit going in case of need.

    MIDLANDS FACTORY.
    Mr. Manderasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether he will consider the advisability of instituting an inquiry into the present state of an aircraft factory in the Midlands, particulars of of which have been supplied to him?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Apart from a minor question of the labour complement, I am not aware of anything in the factory referred to which calls for a special inquiry, but if the hon. Member will let me have particulars of what he has in mind, I will have the matter looked into.
    Mr. Mander: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend really not aware of the dissatisfaction inside and outside these works about the state of organisation there? Has it not been brought to his attention many times, and will he have an efficient investigation made into the situation?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: I will certainly have an investigation. I know this factory, and I am not so dissatisfied as all that. It is going through growing pains and a great deal of improvement can be effected, but on the whole it is producing a good lot of work.
    Sir John Mellor: Is my right hon. and gallant Friend aware that the workers in this factory consider their time is being unnecessarily wasted?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: No, Sir.

    AIR TRANSPORT AUXILIARY (MEDICAL XAMINATION).
    Mr. Hall-Caineasked the Minister of Aircraft Production whether the Air Transport Auxiliary Service has the advantage at its various pools throughout the country of a full-time medical officer; and whether he will arrange for medical officers to examine Air Transport Auxiliary Service pilots each morning before they are allowed to transport aeroplanes, since this procedure would have the effect of diminishing accidents due to the human factor, and be a good investment for his Department in the saving of machines and man-hours, apart from the loss or injury to personnel?
    Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon: Medical examination is available at all the Pools of the Air Transport Auxiliary, and I have no reason to think that the present accident rate in the Service has been adversely affected by any lack of these facilities. I am, however, having the matter re-examined in the light of my hon. Friend's suggestion.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    B.B.C. (REORGANISATION).
    Mr. Viantasked the Minister of Information the nature of the reorganisation effected in the British Broadcasting Corporation; and the reason for the same?
    Mr. Evelyn Walkdenasked the Minister of Information whether he can make any statement on the resignation of
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    Mr. Ogilvie, the Director General of the British Broadcasting Corporation; whether he was consulted before the Governors decided to appoint two director generals in his place; and whether the changes will involve any extension of the present Government control of the programmes and other activities of the British Broadcasting Corporation?
    Mr. Lipsonasked the Minister of Information whether he w11 make a statement about the recent changes in the directorship of the British Broadcasting Corporation?
    The Minister of Information (Mr. Brendan Bracken): Hon. Members will have seen the statement which the Governors of the B.B.C. issued to the public on 26th January. A reorganisation of the B.B.C. necessitated by the war-time expansion of its services has been in progress for some time. In order to facilitate the task of the Governors in carrying out this reorganisation, the late Director-General, Mr. F. W. Ogilvie, placed his resignation in their hands. The Governors accepted it and appointed Sir Cecil Graves and Mr. Robert Foot to discharge the duties of Director-General jointly for the duration of the war.
    I was informed beforehand that this joint appointment would be considered. I felt, however, that this was a matter which the Corporation should decide for themselves and upon which I could offer no advice on behalf of the Government. The relations between the Ministry and the B.B.C. are in no way affected by this change. I should like to pay tribute to the arduous work of the retiring Director-General over a period of four years, during the latter half of which the services of the B.B.C. have developed into a most potent weapon of war. I would only add that I have full confidence in the ability of his two successors to fulfil their onerous task.
    Mr. Lawson: Will my right hon. Friend refrain from inflicting on the House the same kind of thing that the B.B.C. does by talking about "In order to facilitate the reorganisation of the B.B.C., Mr. F. W. Ogilvie placed his resignation in the hands of the Governors"? That is really an insult to the intelligence, and the right hon. Gentlemal ought not to treat the House of Commons in the same way as the B.B.C. treat the public.
    Mr. Bracken: I cannot understand that criticism. Mr. Ogilvie placed his resignation in the hands of the Governors.
    Mr. Lipson: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the resignation of Mr. Ogilvie was made entirely on the initiative of the Governors of the B.B.C. and was not in any sense inspired by sources associated with the Government?
    Mr. Bracken: I have already told the House that the Government expressed no opinion about the resignation of Mr. Ogilvie or the appointment of his successors.
    Mr. E. Walkden: Does this reorganisation mean more dictatorial control of the B.B.C. by the Ministry of Information? Can we have a frank statement whether Mr. Ogilvie was sacked and told to go, or was he asked to put in his cards right away?
    Mr. Bracken: I think that my hon. Friend must not have heard me when I said that no change was involved in the relationship of the B.B.C. to the Ministry of Information. It is not my business to delve into the domestic affairs of the Governors of the B.B.C. They are supposed to be an independent body. Why should I try to elicit from them what arrangements they are making about their staff?
    Mr. Walkden: Are they not responsible to this House?
    Mr. Viant: It not the Minister of Information responsible to this House for giving replies to Questions relating to the B.B.C., and in these circumstances are we not justified in asking that the Minister shall satisfy himself about the relationship between the ex-Governor and the existing B.B.C. controllers, so that he might reply to Questions that are put in the House?
    Mr. Bracken: I am perfectly willing, if the House so desires, to write to the Governors of the B.B.C. and ask them whether they would like to put in writing what exactly happened. I must point oat that I am often asked Questions about too much Government interference in the B.B.C., and great indignation is expressed from time to time that the -Government do interfere. The House cannot have it every way. Either they want the Governors to have a certain
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    amount of independence or they want to make the B.B.C. an appendage of the Ministry of Information which would be a very bad thing.

    PROFESSORS SCHACHT AND MITTWOCH.
    Sir Waldron Smithersasked the Minister of Information on what date the Government passes held by Professor Schacht and Professor Mittwoch were withdrawn?
    Mr. Bracken: The Ministry of Information have never issued passes to Professor Schacht or to Professor Mittwoch. When either of these gentlemen visits the Ministry, he fills up the usual visitor's interview form.
    Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his information and my information apparently do not tally?

    BROADCASTING HOURS (FACTORY WORKERS).
    Mr. R. C. Morrisonasked the Minister of Information whether, in view of the monotony of night work in many factories, he will instruct the British Broadcasting Corporation to arrange "Music while you Work" programmes between the hours of 3 a.m. and 5 a.m.?
    Mr. Bracken: I will look into this: but I am bound to say that I should not favour a further extension of broadcasting hours unless there were strong evidence of the demand for and value of such a step.
    Mr. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether it is not the fact that a number of the B.B.C. staff finish at 12 o'clock and remain on the premises until 7 o'clock in the morning, so that there would be no great addition to the work? Will he also draw the attention of the B.B.C. to the fact that recent experiments with an amateur concert party between 2 and 3 a.m. showed that the entertainment was productive of good results in the case of people who are having to work all night long?
    Mr. Bracken: I will look into that point, but I would remind the hon. Member that a committee of this House actually recommended the cutting down of the hours of broadcasting.
    Mr. Morrison: But now there are thousands of people called upon to undertake monotonous work all night long, and

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    surely that point was not taken into consideration when the committee came to that opinion?

    BROADCASTS TO AUSTRIA.
    Captain Alan Grahamasked the Minister of information whether he is aware of the ineffectiveness of the British Broadcasting Corporation talks to Austria; of the despair created amongst 4,000,000 Austrian peasants by never hearing a broadcast with any reference to their religion or to their Austrian patriotism, or to the future independence of their country; and whether he will prevent the British Broadcasting Corporation from concentrating on out-of-date political issues solely interesting to the Viennese urban population in years ago?
    Mr. Bracken: In broadcasts to Austria the British Broadcasting Corporation does not concentrate on the politics of the Viennese urban population. Regular talks of interest are broadcast, usually in peasant dialect. There are at least as many of these as there are talks directly addressed to the urban population. There are peasant, religious and other talks.
    Captain Graham: Is it not the case that according to reports from Austria there is a progressive decline in the number of Austrians who are willing to risk their heads to listen to the B.B.C. talks?
    Mr. Bracken: That is as may be. There is a large number of people in this country who would not risk their heads to listen to B.B.C. talks.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS DEBATE (BROADCAST SUMMARY).
    Mr. Bernaysasked the Minister of Information why no reference was made in the summary of the House of Commons Debate on the 9 o'clock news of the British Broadcasting Corporation, on Wednesday, 28th January, to the speeches delivered that afternoon by the right hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Lieut.-Colonel Elliot) and the right hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert)?
    Mr. Bracken: I regret that no reference was made in this broadcast to the speeches of my right hon. Friends. I understand that the B.B.C. found it impossible to compress within the length
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    of their news bulletin summaries of all the speeches made in this House during a Debate which lasted nine hours. The responsibility for reporting speeches rests with the editors of the bulletin, and I think it would be a deplorable development if I were to interfere in any way with their freedom of selection.
    Mr. Bernays: While appreciating the considerations which my right hon. Friend has put before the House, may I ask him whether, in view of the difficult and important nature of Parliamentary reporting, the person responsible for the selection of the speeches—a very difficult task—has had experience in the Lobby and the Gallery?
    Mr. Tinker: Why the speeches of right hon. Members? Should not hon. Members have been mentioned too?
    Mr. Bracken: I quite appreciate my hon. Friend's point. The person responsible for the selection of these speeches is, I understand, an experienced political journalist, but I think the B.B.C. will read my hon. Friend's Question and will take his advice into account.
    Mr. George Griffiths: Is this canvassing?
    Mr. Kirkwood: How about backbenchers?
    Mr. Bracken: I have nothing to do with the matter.

    "PICTURE POST" (EXPORT SUBSIDY).
    Mr. Wilfrid Robertsasked the Minister of Information why the assistance to enable "Picture Post" to circulate in the Middle East on equal terms with other papers has been withdrawn?
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Minister of Information why the export subsidy for the despatch to the Middle East of "Picture Post" was withdrawn?
    Mr. Bracken: The Ministry of Information, on the advice of its representatives in various parts of the world, subsidises the export of newspapers and periodicals which are deemed to be useful for the purpose of informing the peoples of the countries concerned as to the significance of the British war effort. My advisers in the Middle East have reported that "Picture Post" is no longer useful to them. My advisers in Switzerland and Sweden

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    tell me that "Picture Post" is a satisfactory vehicle for British publicity. I have acted on the advice of the Ministry of Information's representatives in the Middle East, and I shall continue to act on the advice given by the Ministry's representatives in Switzerland and Sweden. I must point out that there is nothing to prevent the ordinary commercial export of the magazine to any country if it should be so desired.
    Mr. Garro Jones: Is it a fact that a subsidy is given to that elegant journal called "Vogue," and for whose benefit is that journal subsidised?
    Mr. Bracken: I can assure my hon. Friend that "Vogue" is not sent to the Middle East, but some mission abroad said that "Vogue" would be a satisfactory medium for British publicity. When I got to hear of it, I ordered that it should be cancelled at once, because I do not think that is the sort of virile publication which would have an influence on the war effort of the country at the present time.
    Mr. Craven-Ellis: May I ask what form this subsidy to "Picture Post" takes and what amount is involved? I should like to say that the right hon. Gentleman's reply will give considerable dissatisfaction in the East.
    Mr. Bracken: All I can say is that the origin of this subsidy goes back to the beginning of the war. Our representatives abroad, in their enthusiasm, thought we ought to have a large number of British papers on sale everywhere, but we progressively cut down the subsidies until at the present time not more than four or five papers, I think, are subsidised in the Middle East or other parts of the world. In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Craven-Ellis), I do not know what the cost is, but it is a fairly heavy charge to export these papers to the Middle East, and they arrive three months after they are published.
    Mr. Mander: Has the suspension of the subsidies anything to do with criticism of the Government?
    Mr. Bracken: I can assure the hon. Member—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Sorensen.

    GERMANS (IMPRISONMENTS AND DETENTIONS).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Information whether he has any reliable estimate of the approximate total number of Germans who, for racial, religious or political reasons, respectively, were arrested, imprisoned or sent to concentration camps since the establishment of the Nazi Government; and also the estimated number who left or fled from Germany to this and other countries?
    Mr. Bracken: No, Sir. I have no reliable estimates as to the victims of these persecutions.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this indicates that a very considerable section of the German population is actually or potentially hostile to the Nazi Government?
    Mr. Bracken: I should think that is probably true.

  POST OFFICE.

    NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE STAMPS.
    Mr. Mathersasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused to voluntary contributors for National Health Insurance owing to stamps for this purpose not being on sale at the smaller post offices and sub-offices; and whether he will make arrangements to remedy this position?
    The Postmaster-General (Mr. W. S. Morrison): Standing rules provide that all post offices shall carry stocks of those denominations of stamps for which there is a regular demand and that if stamps of any denomination not ordinarily stocked are asked for, an offer must be made to obtain them specially. If the hon. Member will let me have the names of any post offices at which these rules are not observed, I will gladly look into the matter.
    Mr. Mathers: Will the right hon. Gentleman draw attention to this statement, in order that those who require these stamps shall be able to get them at the post offices which are most convenient to them?
    Mr. Morrison: I will look into that point, but this is perfectly well known at post offices. The rules are as I have described them.

    FIRE WATCHERS (MEALS).
    Mr. Viantasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that a fire-watcher at the Ludgate Circus branch post office was, on 15th January, summoned at the Mansion House for leaving his post of duty; that the summons was dismissed because the department had made no provision for a meal for this fire-watcher; and will he issue the necessary instructions to ensure that reasonable and proper facilities are provided for those engaged on such duties?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: The fire watcher referred to was employed by the Post Office as a full-time paid watcher under a co-operative scheme for the protection of the premises in which the Ludgate Circus post office and other businesses are accommodated. Sleeping accommodation, bedding, and other amenities prescribed under the Fire Prevention Business Premises Order No. 2 were available to this man and, in accordance with normal Post Office practice, cooking facilities were also provided.

    AIR MAIL (ARMED FORCES, FAR EAST).
    Mr. Bellengerasked the Postmaster-General what is the fee for air-mail post to military, naval and air personnel in the Far East?
    Mr. W. S. Morrison: The air postage rates for correspondence for H.M. Forces in the Far East are 1s. 3d. a half-ounce for letters, and 3d. each for thin postcards. Owing to their weight in relation to the limited aircraft capacity available for mails, the letters have to be conveyed part of the way by surface route, but the thin postcards are normally conveyed by air throughout.
    Mr. Bellenger: Does my right hon. Friend realise the burden that this charge entails upon a large number of relatives who want to correspond with their people in the Far East; and is it not possible to reduce the charge even if it means laying a charge upon the inflated profits of his Department?
    Mr. Morrison: The charge is a high one, but the capacity for carrying air mail is so limited that the charge has to be high. There would be no point in reducing the charge if it led to such a volume of air mail correspondence that it could not be carried by air.
    Mr. Bellenger: Would not an alternative be to set up a similar system to that which is operating for the Middle East, the air-graph sysem?
    Mr. Morrison: The postcard is available now and it is flown the whole way for 3d. The question of setting up an airgraph service is well in hand.

  RAILINGS (REMOVAL).
  Mr. Parkerasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether any special exemption is given to the general order for the removal of railings for those surrounding churches, burial grounds, tombstones and statues?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings (Mr. Hicks): No special exemption has been given, but appeals in such cases are dealt with by direct discussion between officers of my Department and representatives of the various churches concerned. These arrangements are working; satisfactorily.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Will the Minister take special care that railings of artistic design or distinction shall not be removed?
  Mr. Hicks: It has always been the case that we take care in regard to railings of historical or artistic merit.

  POST-WAR PLANNING.
  Mr. Bossomasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings when a Waite Paper will be issued outlining his proposals for the promised Town Planning Bill?
  Mr. Hicks: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio gave to the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. G. White) on 29th January.
  Mr. Bossom: Is the Minister aware that a number of large municipal authorities feel it is impossible to take any preliminary steps in the matter until they have some idea of what the Government are going to do?
  Mr. Hicks: I can only refer my hon. Friend to my previous answer.

  MINISTRY OF WORKS AND BUILDINGS (DIRECTORS).
  Mr. Bossomasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether the various Directors of his Ministry are paid or unpaid; and, if paid, what are their salaries and does their work in the Ministry occupy their full time?
  Mr. Hicks: Of the nine posts of Departmental Directors created since the Ministry was set up, the following five posts are held by unsalaried Directors: Director of Works, Director of Cement, Director of Labour Requirements and Plant, Director of Roofing and Other Materials, Director of Demolition and Recovery. The remaining four posts are held by salaried Directors: Director of Bricks, £1,400 per annum; Director of Structural Design, £1,000 per annum; Director of Emergency Works, the pay of his military rank; Director of Post-war Building, £1,750 per annum. All the salaried Directors devote their whole time to the work of the Ministry.
  Mr. Bossom: Are any of these Directors holding contracts which are of pecuniary benefit to themselves through this Department or any other Department?
  Mr. Hicks: I am not able to say that. So far as I know, the answer would be in the negative, very definitely.
  Mr. Gallacher: Will these unpaid Directors he entitled to a pension without a means test?
  Sir Irving Albcry: Are any of the unpaid Directors remunerated by their firms while they are employed by the Ministry?
  Mr. Hicks: So far as I am aware, none of them lives on air. I imagine that they are getting a salary from somewhere.

  MESSRS. T. P. BENNETT AND SON (FEES).
  Major Lyonsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings the amount of fees credited or paid to the firm of Messrs. T. P. Bennett and Son from 1st January, 1941, to date?
  Mr. Hicks: Since 1st January, 1941, commissions have been given to the firm of Messrs. T. P. Bennett and Son, under
  1174
  which the fees payable will be between £22,800 and £28,800, in accordance with the services which the firm are required to render. The sum of £6,680 has been paid on account.
  Major Lyons: Is any member of this firm one of the Directors of the Ministry about whom the Minister has been speaking?
  Mr. Hicks: I understand that the hon. and gallant Member is asking about Mr. T. P. Bennett. He is one of the unpaid Directors referred to in my previous answer.
  Major Lyons: Do we understand that this gentleman, who is an unpaid Director and a member of this firm, has had this benefit during one year of service?
  Mr. Hicks: Since the outbreak of war, about 200 architects have been employed. I do not know whether the House would like to lay down an instruction that, in the pursuit of the war effort, we should invite men from any walk of life and that immediately they come in to give their advice or assistance the whole work of their firms is to be cut off. If we did so, we should soon be very short of such assistance.

  SCRAP METAL.
  Mr. Viantasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Works and Buildings whether he is satisfied that all iron and steel material made available, as a consequence of the appeal to the public to save such metal, is being directly used for the national war effort and that none of this metal is being resold by merchants for private purposes?
  Mr. Hicks: I have fully realised this possibility, and while being satisfied that the great majority of scrap dealers will carry out any instructions both in the letter and the spirit, I have an assurance that, in the event of it being proved that any merchant has resold any such material otherwise than as scrap, his licence to trade will be revoked.
  Mr. Viant: Has the Minister yet attained the objective he had in view, 40,000 tons a week?
  Mr. Hicks: That is the amount which my Department has undertaken to collect and is the amount necessary to meet the country's needs. It is over and above the

  1175
  metal collected by scrap metal merchants in their normal run of business. I will do my best to collect 40,000 tons per week, and every nook and cranny of the country will be searched in order to get it, but I cannot guarantee that it will be done. The best ability of my Department will be devoted to trying to get 40,000 tons per week.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Is there not a lot of metal uncollected that has remained uncollected for the last two years?
  Mr. Hicks: We have broadcast and circularised, and tried to get in touch with people through the Press, to ask them to advise us where there is metal lying about. We are also making a national survey. We have a plan for collecting the metal, working county by county. We hope that as we go through the counties we shall be able to clear up all the scrap.

  WARSHIP SAVINGS WEEKS.
  Sir Robert Youngasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether there is any special objection to local urban districts throughout the country being permitted to name the war vessels, for the construction of which they have secured large sums of money during the warship savings weeks now becoming popular in many localities?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Victor Warrender): In view of the general interest which I know is taken in this matter, I have prepared a detailed answer to my hon. Friend's Question, and since it is rather long I will, with his permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Sir R. Young: Will not this idea help to popularise the Navy in the inland centreis?
  Sir V. Warrender: When the hon. Gentleman sees the answer he will see everything set out very comprehensively.
  Following is the reply:
  The Question has been carefully considered, but it has been found impracticable to name ships after districts which have subscribed certain sums to Government securities, because

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  (a) there are not enough vessels of each type to permit the allocation of a warship of the appropriate size to each town, and to ma ke distinctions would naturally be invidious and undesirable.

  (b) it is necessary, for administrative reasons, to assign distinctive groups of names to each class of warship;

  (c) the practice of naming vessels after towns or localities would ultimately result in the elimination of the use of traditional names with their historical associations and battle honours, on which the Navy sets great store.

  It was for these reasons that the Admiralty sanctioned the scheme under which a town or locality can "adopt" a warship already in service, or about to commission, and of a type commensurate with the sum subscribed.

  WEST INDIES.

    CARIBBEAN COLONIES.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any conversations are in progress between the British and the United States Governments on the question of economic collaboration in the West Indies; and whether any steps are likely to be taken by the two Governments for the promotion of social and economic development throughout the Caribbean region?
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): I would refer my hon. Friend to the replies which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Sir P. Hurd) on 21st January. I have nothing to add at present.
    Mr. Creech Jones: What progresss is being made, and is some understanding likely to be reached? May I remind the Minister of the very great importance of obtaining some economic understanding between the West Indies and the United States?
    Mr. Hall: Consultation; are still going on, but, since they commenced, America has come into the war, and no doubt is preoccupied with that very important task at the moment.

    PORT OF SPAIN (CORRUPTION CHARGES).
    Dr. Morganasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give particulars of the charges of corruption made against Alderman A. E. Richards, the mayor of the municipality of Port of Spain, Trinidad, who was arrested recently, and released on bail pending trial; whether the trial has taken place yet, or is proceeding; and whether every attempt will be made to stamp out, by strict impartial judicial inquiry, any growth of corruption in these Colonies?
    Mr. George Hall: No information as to this case has been received from the Governor, but he is being asked for a report, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend on receipt of his reply.

    SCHOOL ATTENDANCE, JAMAICA.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the high percentage of non-attendance at school of 30 to 40 per cent. of children of school age in Jamaica, it is intended to adopt remedial measures, either by compulsion or otherwise, to terminate this situation?
    Mr. George Hall: Non-attendance at school in Jamaica is due not only to social and economic conditions but to inadequate accommodation, and until further accommodation can be provided any extension of the areas in which attendance is already compulsory is inadvisable. A number of steps are being taken to diminish the serious non-attendance factor among children already enrolled, including the framing of proposals for the more effective application of compulsion in the compulsory attendance areas. Schemes for the improvement of the educational system, including the provision of additional accommodation, are at present being considered by the Comptroller for Development and Welfare in the West Indies.
    Mr. Adams: May I take it that the Minister is seriously concerned about the growth of illiteracy in Jamaica?
    Mr. Hall: That is one of the reasons for which the Controller has been appointed, and I can assure my hon. Friend that they are paying special attention to that matter.
    Mr. Sorensen: Is it not a fact that one reason why some children do not go to school is because poverty necessitates their employment?

  NIGERIA (WARNING TO PRESS).
  Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies why the local Press in Nigeria were recently warned against the publication of critical statements likely to encourage discontent; and why the use of the Governor's power under the General Defence Regulations was threatened?
  Mr. George Hall: The warning given to the Press by the Governor of Nigeria specifically referred to the publication of incorrect and misleading statements. The Governor has special war-time powers under the General Defence Regulations to take action against newspapers publishing such statements when, in view of the present emergency, their publication, in his opinion, is likely to have results which might be inimical to public order. Certain newspapers have, in fact, offended against the Regulations and thus rendered themselves liable to penalties. The Governor has attempted to deal with them by making a personal approach. He reports that this has had no effect, and that he therefore issued a warning in a broadcast speech from Lagos that in future cases action would be taken where necessary under the Regulations.
  Mr. Creech Jones: Will my hon. Friend see that a very liberal discretion is exercised in respect of the administration of those Regulations?
  Mr. Hall: That has been the case, but there are Regulations which must be applied, and if they are constantly evaded, the Governor must take action.
  Mr. Sorensen: Can the hon. Gentleman say against what journals action has been taken?
  Mr. Hall: No action has been taken yet.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Is not some of the local Press under German influence?
  Mr. Hall: I do not think so.

  EAST AFRICA.

    NATIVE RECRUITMENT.
    Mr. Creech Jonesasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies for what reason all recruitment for the African military labour, pioneer and transport corps in East Africa has been suspended?
    Mr. George Hall: By agreement between the local civil and military authorities, recruitment for the East African Military Labour Service has been temporarily suspended in Kenya in order to avoid competition from the Forces for the African labour required for the programme of increased production for war purposes.
    Mr. Creech Jones: May I ask my hon. Friend whether this decision can be considered in the light of events in Malaya, where it has been complained that we have not had the full co-operation of the Colonial peoples during the Japanese aggression? May I also ask whether the estimates of the white farmers were taken, and whether in considering those estimates due regard was had to the possibility of effecting economies in regard to the use of black labour?
    Mr. Hall: This matter had better be left to the civil and military authorities, who know all the circumstances. They have decided on the lines set out in the reply.

    HOUSING SCHEME, NAIROBI.
    Major Lyonsasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies from what fund the Secretary of State has sanctioned a loan or grant for a rehousing scheme for Africans at Nairobi, and what are the conditions of the loan; to what authority is it made, and what is the total estimated expenditure of the scheme; whether the rents will be economic or sub-economic; and whether the plans provide for reasonable amenities, including tree planting, outdoor and indoor relaxation and a community centre, all with due regard to economy?
    Mr. George Hall: A loan of £30,000 was made in November last year from Kenya Government Funds to the Nairobi Municipal Council for a housing scheme for Africans. The loan is for a period of 40 years and interest is payable at 3 per cent. The rents to be charged by the
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    Council are to be sufficient to cover capital cost and annual maintenance only. The plans provide for a central garden, additional garden sites on the outskirts of the location, and a belt of trees along one side. Details of recreational facilities are not available.
    Major Lyons: Will my hon. Friend keep his mind on the necessity for those recreation facilities in any further plans which are put to him?
    Mr. Hall: I have no doubt that future plans will comply with my hon. Friend's wishes.

  "DAILY WORKER."
  Mr. Tinkerasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider giving the necessary Parliamentary time to discuss the Notice of Motion standing in the names of the hon. Members for Leigh, Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith) and Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) relating to the removal of the ban on the "Daily Worker"?
  The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir.
  Mr. Tinker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ban dates from over 12 months ago, and that since that time the people who controlled the paper have certainly kept their rights of citizenship and have helped the war effort, and further that the trade unions have sent in resolutions calling for an examination of the matter? In view of that, cannot he give time for a discussion?
  Sir I. Albery: As this raises an issue in which the only appeal is to the House of Commons, does not the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable that some facility should be given for a discussion on the subject?
  Mr. Attlee: It could be raised on the Adjournment.
  Sir I. Albery: But will the Government give facilities on the Adjournment?
  Mr. J. J. Davidson: Has this matter been considered recently by the Cabinet from the point of view of the unfortunate effect the ban has on war production, and, if so, could he say when?
  Mr. Attlee: Not without notice.
  Mr. Kirkwood: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, representing 100,000 engineers, and other unions have appealed for this ban to be removed? Has any consideration been given to that? Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

  MINISTER OF PRODUCTION.
  Sir T. Mooreasked the Prime Minister whether he can state the precise functions of the Minister of Production; and what Government Departments his activities will cover?
  Mr. Attlee: I must ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the further statement on this subject which will be made in due course.
  Sir T. Moore: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a very widespread feeling in the country that this is essential to victory, and will steps be taken to overcome the difficulty soon?
  Mr. Davidson: In discussing this question, will the Minister keep in mind the very great importance of effecting regional organisation to assist the Ministry?

  MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

    VALUABLE RECORDS AND DOCUMENTS (RE-PULPING).
    Mr. Hannahasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether, in sending books and papers from libraries and public offices to be pulped for the national effort, care is being exercised not hastily to destroy any records or documents of value?
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): The desirability of preserving from re-pulping any records or documents of special value has been carefully borne in mind, and the support of the Ministry of Supply has been given to public appeals to that effect by the British Records Association. The Library Association gives special attention to this matter when turning out library books and papers for salvage, and the attention of Government Departments has also been drawn to the subject.
    Mr. Hannah: Can we be assured that what is printed on the new paper produced will be of more value to the world than what is scrapped?
    Mr. Macmillan: After my long experience, I should be the last man to give that assurance.

    FACTORY (COMPLAINTS).
    Mr. Burkeasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether he will inquire into the corn-plaints of alleged waste of labour and material at a firm on war-work in Lancashire, the name of which has been supplied to him; that men in charge are stated to have had no previous experience of the work; that numerous defective parts are lying about scrapped; that women have to spend their time knitting; and that these complaints were made at a meeting of the employees specially called by a responsible trade union at which two district officials were present?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Yes, Sir. The meeting of the employees was called as a preliminary to a subsequent joint meeting with the management, at which the complaints were fully discussed and general agreement reached. I am satisfied that the closest co-operation exists between the two sides.
    Mr. Burke: Is the hon. Gentleman, aware that these complaints have been widespread and have caused much concern in the neighbourhood of this factory, and does he think that insurance agents, school teachers, and salesmen are the best type to be put in charge of production of components for aeroplanes and tanks?
    Mr. Macmillan: My hon. Friend has made a lot of statements to which he will not expect me to reply offhand, but I am very gratified that the matter in dispute has been settled by the operation of the Whitley Council, on which both sides are represented.

    TIMBER WORK (WOMEN'S WAGES).
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply who is responsible for fixing 9½ per hour which is being paid to the women handling timber in the vicinity of Ashington; and, in view of the nature of the work, is he satisfied that this rate of payment is adequate?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: I am informed that women are employed mainly on the work of peeling, light felling and cross cutting in the district referred to, both by the Home Grown Timber Production Department of the Ministry of Supply and by private employers of that Industry. The rates of wages are settled by the Joint Industrial Council for the Home Grown Timber Trade.
    Mr. Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman tell me when these rates of pay were settled?
    Mr. Macmillan: I could not say that.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the nature of the work, and will he answer the last part of my Question, as to whether this is an adequate rate of payment?
    Mr. Macmillan: I do not think it would be very proper for me to go behind the original agreement by which the rate was fixed.
    Mr. Stephen: Would the hon. Gentleman himself like to work for that amount?

    NON-FERROUS METALS (SALVAGE).
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply whether there are effective arrangements at present in force for the salvage and subsequent recovery of nonferrous metals; and, in view of the risk of copper and brass utensils being resold as such to members of the public after having been donated for the national war effort, whether instances of this have occurred and are steps taken to prevent it?
    Mr. Harold Macmillan: Non-ferrous metal articles are collected from householders by local authorities and dealers, and disposed of for scrap through waste merchants. The Non-Ferrous Metals Control have appointed experienced representatives in each region to advise upon the best use of salvaged non-ferrous metals. The donor can avoid any possibility of utensils being diverted and resold before they are broken up by himself rendering them unusable for their original purpose.
    Mr. Simmonds: Is it not a fact that although non-ferrous metals are very urgently required, the drive has been chiefly for ferrous metals, and would my
    1184
    hon. Friend consider whether more publicity could be given to the need for nonferrous metals?
    Mr. Macmillan: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Stokes: Would the hon. Gentleman say at approximately what date the experienced people referred to were appointed in the districts? How long ago was it?
    Mr. Macmillan: I could not say.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    FROZEN MEAT (DISTRIBUTION, LONDON).
    Mr. Purbrickasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food why meat is frequently distributed from the Chester Street, Hyde Park, depôt to the butchers in a hard frozen condition?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Major Lloyd George): It is impracticable, having regard to the desire for speedy movement in and out of the wholesale meat depôts to thaw out frozen meat there prior to distribution to the butchers. It is distributed in a hard frozen condition throughout all the London depôts and thawed out at the butchers' premises.
    Mr. Purbrick: In view of the fact that retail butchers have no facilities for thawing out frozen meat properly, and consequently meat has reached the public in an inferior condition, could not the meat be thawed out before delivery to the retailers as was done before the distribution came under Government control?
    Major Lloyd George: We are doing a great deal, as my hon. Friend knows. He is no doubt aware that a great proportion of imported meat was chilled, not frozen.

    EGGS (BLACK MARKET).
    Mr. Woodsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that it is impossible to prevent sales of eggs at black-market prices by poultry keepers with up to 50 hens; and whether he is now prepared to compel all producers with 24 hens, and over, to send their eggs to approved packing stations?
    Major Lloyd George: While some producers with less than 50 laying hens may evade the price Orders to which they are

    1185
    subject, I have no evidence that such a practice is widespread. The answer to the last part of my hon. Friend's Question is in the negative.
    Mrs. Hardie: Does the right hon. and gallant Gentleman realise the large number of producers kept off the market because of this provision that people with up to 50 hens should not be dealt with under the scheme, and would he reduce this number to bring in more producers under the scheme?
    Major Lloyd George: There are very great difficulties in that into which I can- not enter by question and answer.
    Mr. Charles Williams: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that the original decision is absolutely right?
    Mr. Thorne: Where the persons are known to the Ministry to be dealing in the black market, will action be taken?
    Major Lloyd George: Anybody known by my Department to be in the black market is dealt with at once.
    Mr. Woods: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman make inquiries as to the price which eggs of such producers are fetching, and will he consult with the Minister of Agriculture to ascertain the sources of supply? There is evidence that this black market in eggs is creating also a black market in provisions for feeding hens.
    Major Lloyd George: As I said in my reply, I have no evidence of such sales being widespread. If the hon. Member has information I should be grateful if he would pass it on to me.

    BRITISH RESTAURANTS.
    Mr. David Adamsasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any Government decision as to the continued existence of British Restaurants after the war has been come to, and whether, in view of the outstanding public advantages of this experiment, an opportunity will be afforded before a definite decision is taken to debate the matter in the House?
    Major Lloyd George: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer to a Question on this subject which I gave to my hon.
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    Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) on 22nd January, 1942.
    Mr. Adams: Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give some indication as to whether there will be a Debate in the House before the cessation of these British Restaurants?
    Major Lloyd George: Briefly, the answer given was that the function of my Department is to see that the people of this country are adequately fed in war time, and that it would be for Parliament to decide which, if any, of the existing activities of the Ministry should continue when the present temporary powers expire.

    SEED POTATOES (DAMAGE BY RAIL).
    Mr. Colegateasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that his Department have failed to provide protection for seed potatoes distributed by rail by his Department, as required by the Potatoes (1941 Crop) (Control) (No. 2) Order, 1941, and that many hundreds of tons of valuable seed potatoes have in consequence become a total loss; and whether he will take steps to see that in future the Order in question is obeyed by all officials engaged in this work?
    Major Lloyd George: No, Sir. I am not aware that extensive loss of seed potatoes has resulted from failure to provide protection during transit. Inspections have revealed that, of 161 tons 5 cwt. about which complaints were made, 13 tons 3 cwt. were damaged. Instructions have been given to all concerned to ensure that seed potatoes are properly protected.
    Mr. Colegate: Surely my right hon. and gallant Friend is aware that large numbers of railway trucks throughout the country are carrying seed potatoes without any straw or any other adequate protection?
    Major Lloyd George: The obligation to protect potatoes is upon the people engaged in the transaction. Where the Ministry are a party to the consignment we are responsible; otherwise we are not.
    Mr. Colegate: Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman not aware that I am referring to consignments from Eire for which the Ministry is responsible?
    Major Lloyd George: In the case of consignments from Eire in which the Ministry is concerned instructions have been issued that all wagons must be well protected.
    Sir Ernest Shepperson: Is it not the case that a great deal more damage is done to potatoes coming from Scotland by water than by rail?

    FEEDING OATS, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. Snaddenasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that farmers in Scotland are finding it impossible to dispose of their feeding oats; that storage accommodation is overflowing with this commodity; and what steps he proposes to take to meet the position?
    Major Lloyd George: I am aware of the difficulty which is being experienced in certain areas in Scotland in disposing of feeding oats, and steps have already been taken to relieve the position. A considerable quantity of Scottish feeding oats purchased by the Ministry is being moved to localities where they are required for consumption or where storage accommodation is available. I would remind my hon. Friend that increased prices have been provided for growers who are able and willing to hold their oats in stack until March or later, and that large quantities will then be required to provide adequate supplies of milling oats for oatmeal and of feeding oats for horses during the summer months.
    Mr. Snadden: Are not the steps to which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman refers applicable only to milling oats, and is he expecting farmers to get milling oats with coupons which they have not got?
    Major Lloyd George: I will look into that.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
  SHIPYARD CONDITIONS.
  Major Lloyd: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to the Conditions in the Shipyards, and move a Resolution.

  HOSPITAL ADMINISTRATION.
  Mr. McNeil: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the
  1188
  Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to questions relating to Hospital Administration, and move a Resolution.

  YOUTH REGISTRATION AND SERVICE.
  Mr. T. Smith: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shat call attention to the question of Youth Registration and Service, and move a Resolution.
  ARMY PREVENTION OF WASTE.
  Mr. Woodburn: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates I shall call attention to Reducing and Prevention of Waste, and move a Resolution.
  CIVIL LIBERTIES ("DAILY WORKER").
  Mr. Maxton: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall I call attention to the Ban on the "Daily Worker," and other Infringements of Civil Liberties, and move a Resolution.
  CIVIL AVIATION.
  Mrs. Tate: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the importance of Civil Aviation to this Country and the Empire in Post-war Planning, and move a Resolution.

  FOOD SUPPLY.
  Mr. Sorensen (for Mr. Neil Maclean): I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the Food Supply, and move a Resolution.
  Mr. Speaker: I trust that the hon. Member has been asked to give that notice on behalf of the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean).
  Mr. Sorensen: I understood, Sir, that you were asking someone to do so.
  Mr. Speaker: Not unless he had been asked to do so by the hon. Member for Govan.

  PRESERVATION OF INDUSTE IES, SCOTLAND.
  Sir John Graham Kerr: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates, I shall call attention to the Importance of Preserving Industries in Scotland, and move a Resolution.
  NAVAL CONTROL OF AIRCRAFT.
  Admiral of the Fleet Sir Roger Keyes: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates. I shall call attention to the need for the Navy to have complete Control over all the Aircraft it requires to fulfil its responsibilities, and move a Resolution.
  SHIPBUILDING.
  Mr. Storey: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates, I shall call attention to Shipbuilding, and move a Resolution.
  EDUCATIONAL AND PHYSICAL ASSISTANCE (ROYAL AIR FORCE).
  Mr. J. J. Davidson: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the importance of Educational and Physical Assistance to the members of the Air Force, and move a Resolution.
  SCIENTIFIC EDUCATION (ROYAL AIR FORCE).
  Commander Locker-Lampson: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Air Estimates, I shall call attention to the lack of Scientific Education, and move a Resolution.
  WELFARE AND EDUCATION OF TROOPS.
  Mr. Mathers: I beg to give notice that on going into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates, I shall call attention to the Welfare and Education of the Troops, and move a Resolution.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

  SUPPLY.

    HOUSE OF COMMONS.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the House of Commons, including a grant in aid to the Kitchen Committee."
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): It is only right that I should say a word on this, in order to call specific attention to an extension being made in the travelling facilities provided for Members of this House. Hon. Members know that the practice has been for several years that travelling facilities—either first-class or third-class, as hon. Members may wish—are provided for hon. Members between Westminster and their constituencies. At the beginning of the war the natural extension was made to provide travelling facilities for our hon. and gallant colleagues between Westminster and their military stations. That extension was an cjusdem generis of the previous facilities, and it was not thought necessary to bring it further before the House. There has been this year another extension, which I announced in reply to a Question on 4th September, which makes available to hon. and gallant Members travelling facilities between their military stations and their

    1207
    constituencies. I think it is an extension which will be found agreeable to hon. Members. As a matter of fact, it is impossible to give any estimate of the cost of the extension, but it is obvious that it will be only a very small sum, and it is possible to argue that it will effect an economy. It all depends on whether the military station and the constituency are on the same side of London or not. At present, if a Member is stationed on a different side of London from his constituency, he can get a ticket from his military station to Westminster and then get a ticket from Westminster to his constituency. If his military station is on the same side of London as his constituency, he will have to come up to London from his station, and then go back again to his constituency. Under the new arrangement, that double journey will be avoided. That is why I do not think that the proposal is likely to involve any extra charge. But, as this is an extension of the facilities which hon. Members have in the past voted to themselves, it is only right that their specific attention should be called to it.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved.
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the House of Commons, including a grant in aid to the Kitchen Committee."

    MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £650, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for certain miscellaneous expenses, including certain grants in aid."
    Captain Crookshank: This expenditure is due to another action by this House, in one of its representative capacities. Most of us belong to the Empire Parliamentary Association. That Association decided during the year to invite delegates of the Dominion Parliaments to visit us. We had the pleasure of receiving delegates from Canada and South Africa. Unfortunately Australia and New Zealand were not able to be represented, owing to the recent extension of the war. In order to defray the expenses of that visit, it is necessary to ask for this Supplementary Vote.
    Mr. Tinker: Would the right hon. and gallant Gentleman go more fully into the matter, and tell us what these expenses cover? Do they cover the passages of the delegates from the Dominions to this country, or are they for entertainment after their arrival in this country?
    Captain Crookshank: The question of the travelling expenses to and from is a matter which is settled in different ways on different occasions. As hon. Members who are versed in the arrangements of the Empire Parliamentary Association know, it is normal for the entertainment to be provided in the country to which the delegates go, whether this country or the Dominions. Whether in this particular case the payment covered any of the actual travelling outside this country I am not certain, but I can let the hon. Member know. He can rest assured that if it was so, it was because it was considered by the Association very important that these visitors should come. It may be that the Dominions did not have the traveling facilities themselves. Of course, when they come here they are entertained by the Association, which provides travelling and hotel fees and arranges such small social gatherings as may be necessary in order that the delegates may achieve the purpose for which they have come, to maintain contact with this country, and, more especially, with both Houses of Parliament.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £650, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for certain miscellaneous expenses, including certain grants in aid."

    GOVERNMENT HOSPITALITY.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum not exceeding £10,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for a grant in aid of the Government Hospitality Fund."
    Captain Crookshank: This Vote is required because in the main Estimates we did not take any money for this purpose. When the Estimates for the year were being prepared, it was the height of the blitz period, and it did not then seem

    1209
    likely that much Government hospitality would be required, to judge from what it had been in the previous period when the figure had considerably dropped. Since this is a continuing Fund, there was a sufficient balance to cover what we then thought would be required, if those conditions continued. As hon. Gentlemen know, however, not only did those conditions not continue, but a great number of opportunities arose for His Majesty's Government to offer hospitality to distinguished persons, such as representatives of the Dominions and of Allied Governments and other delegations who came to this country. It is for that purpose that I ask the House to vote this money. I give as an example of the very great pleasure which the Government had in being able to show hospitality in this way and through this Fund, the case of the Prime Ministers of Australia and New Zealand. There is also the case of His Majesty the King of Greece and the members of the Greek Government when they came here, and various other delegations.
    Mr. David Adams: This Estimate indicates a decrease on last year's expenditure. Does not that represent too optimistic a view in view of the continued visits to this country of representatives from the Dominions and elsewhere?
    Captain Crookshank: I hope it does not. There is a decrease in the sense that we are taking £10,000 instead of £12,000 but, as I have said, there was a balance in the Fund at the beginning of the year. I would not like hon. Gentlemen to think from this figure that the total for the year is going to be only £10,000. That figure is the estimate plus the balance.
    Mr. Adams: What is the balance?
    Captain Crookshank: It was somewhere in the region of £9,500.
    Mr. Hannah: Does any surplus go back to the general fund, or is this Fund kept altogether separate?
    Captain Crookshank: It is kept separate, otherwise there would not be a balance of £9,500 at the beginning of the year. That does not go back into the general Government fund. It is a Hospitality Fund as such.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £10,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for a grant in aid of the Government Hospitality Fund."

    SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION, &C.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £69,000 be granted to his Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for sundry grants in aid of scientific investigation, etc., and other grants."
    Captain Crookshank: This Vote covers two different points. First, there was the decision by His Majesty's Government to give a new, a more important and an independent status to the Agricultural Research Council and, in fact, to bring it up to the status of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research and the Medical Research Council. The need for research into many agricultural matters is so great, that if a change of status in that way helps to accomplish what is required, I am sure hon. Gentlemen will not see any objection to it. Those recommendations are being put into effect. One of the results of that is to change the source from which this council has been financed—the Development Commissioners have previously found the money—and to put it directly upon the Votes. That does not make much difference because, by and large, Parliament finances the Development Commissioners by grants in aid and this is merely putting this particular expenditure on to another Vote. It is a purely technical matter which arises as a result of raising the status of the Council.
    There is also a deficiency in appropriations-in-aid which appears under sub-Head "Z". Under the first sub-Head "M" there is an increase on the original Estimate of £26,000. That additional sum is required in order to meet the growing needs of the Agricultural Research Council for research stations and administrative expenses and research purposes generally. Therefore, what this Vote really means is, first, that we are raising the status of the Agricultural Research Council and we are for the rest of the year giving it a larger sum than had been anticipated in the

    1211
    main Estimates. In any case, it will be getting those moneys not through the Development Commissioners but directly from the Vote, though that last point, in itself, as I have explained, does not make any real difference.
    Sir Ernest Shepperson: May I ask whether these grants or any part of them will go to the agricultural colleges to assist them in carrying out their functions in connection with agricultural research?
    Captain Crookshank: Of course, there is an enormous number of grants and technically they come under the Department of the Lord President of the Council, as do other scientific grants, and I am merely answering for him at the moment. I do not know whether any of the sum which is dealt with in this Supplementary Estimate is going directly to the colleges. But these are, I understand, largely grants for work done through or by agents of the colleges—for instance, the School of Agriculture at Cambridge, the School of Animal Pathology at Cambridge, the Institute of Agricultural Parasitology, grant to Rothamsted, grant to Reading University and many others. I think this is the normal procedure under which the financing of this work is carried out, and if there are any specific or detailed questions on which hon. Members require information, I think it would be more convenient if they were put down at Question time and dealt with by the Minister concerned.
    Mr. Price: In the Class VI Vote in these Supplementary Estimates for the Ministry of Agriculture I find there are grants for agricultural research purposes involving an additional sum amounting to about £29,000. Do these grants not come under that head also?
    Captain Crookshank: The hon. Member is referring to another Vote, and I am afraid I cannot answer for that. The Minister of Agriculture will deal with that Vote. What I am dealing with now is what is being done directly under the auspices of the Agricultural Research Council and the hon. Gentleman can rest assured, if this is what he has in mind, that these bodies do all work together.
    Mr. Price: Into which class—the Vote we are dealing with now or the other Vote
    1212
    of the Ministry of Agriculture—do the grants to universities or research stations come?
    Captain Crookshank: I think it will be clear from what I have said that they come into both. The instances which I quoted to my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) were grants which come out of this Vote. Obviously there are many, other moneys provided for these purposes through the Ministry of Agriculture.
    Mr. David Adams: In view of the growing importance of agricultural development as a result of the war and other causes, is the Minister satisfied that the amount now provided is sufficient to meet all these expanding purposes? I ask this question because, to my knowledge, scientific research generally in this country has been far behind that in other leading countries. That was certainly the case in pre-war days. It is a position which should be rectified and the present may be an opportunity of doing so, as far as agriculture is concerned.
    Captain Crookshank: I think the Agricultural Research Council can be trusted to bring forward any proposals which are within its field and which it considers necessary at the present time. But this is a Supplementary Estimate and I am dealing only with the excess for which the House is being asked. I understand that the matters dealt with in this excess are largely research work on animal diseases, nutrition, and plants and soil.
    Mr. Adams: Have we agreed to the Agricultural Research Council's Estimate?
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £69,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for sundry grants in aid of scientific investigation, etc., and other grants."

    DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR SERVICES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions and Consular Establishments Abroad, and

    1213
    other expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote; certain special grants and payments, including grants in aid; and sundry other services."
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Richard Law): I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if I gave a brief explanation of this Supplementary Estimate. The first item is an increase in the contribution of His Majesty's Government towards the funds of the International Red Cross. I do not think that it is really necessary to explain to the Committee the very great value of the work which is being done by the Red Cross. It is of the greatest help in the sending of parcels to prisoners of war and facilitating communications between prisoners and residents at home and a great many other works. I am sure that relatives, and this country generally, are under considerable indebtedness to the International Red Cross Society for the work that they have done. This work has to be financed. It is financed in the main by the International Red Cross itself, but there are contributions also from the various belligerent Governments. The cost of this work does not go down but increases all the time. We have decided to give an additional grant of £12,500 towards this work, and I hope that the Committee will not feel that this is wrong.
    The second item is the grant-in-aid towards the relief of distress in. China. Last year His Majesty's Ambassador in Chungking drew the attention of His Majesty's Government to the very great difficulty which the Chinese Red Cross was experiencing from lack of transport; and in answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), my right hon. Friend said that we were going to give the sum of £50,000 to help the Chinese with their transport difficulties. That sum is being administered by the British Fund for the Relief of Distress in China, in co-operation with a Committee set up for the purpose by His Majesty's Ambassador at Chungking for assisting the distress of British and Chinese nationals. The Friends' Ambulance Unit, incidentally, provides the personnel for ambulances.
    The final item is an anticipated saving on the grant-in-aid to the British Council. I think the Committee generally are agreed that the British Council does very valuable work, and the fact that there is this reduction does not mean that that
    1214
    work has become any less valuable or that it is any the less appreciated. It is simply that owing to the developments of the war the activities of the British Council in several parts of the world have been reduced, notably in the Balkans, and the reduction of the work in the Balkans has caused the reduction in the Estimate.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: The Committee will agree with the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to the excellent work done by the International Red Cross. He made one remark that intrigued me when he stated that contributions were being made from the various belligerent Governments, and I was wondering what is the basis of contribution. Is it based upon the number of prisoners of war or upon the population of these particular countries?
    Mr. Law: I am afraid that I cannot tell the hon. Member exactly what the basis is or exactly what are the contributions of the belligerent Governments compared with that of the British Government; but I can assure him that, generally speaking, there is an equality and that our contribution is very much on a level with that of other Governments.
    Mr. Mander: Can my hon. Friend say whether any of the extra contribution will be required in connection with the distribution of food in Greece under the supervision of the International Red Cross, and whether, if that is so, he is satisfied that there will be complete control by the International Red Cross of the food that is distributed by the Red Cross in Greece? I would also like to know whether the International Red Cross is operating in all the countries occupied by the three enemies at the present time.
    Mr. Law: With regard to the first point of my hon. Friend, the grant in aid is specifically directed towards the relief of the distress of prisoners of war, and I do not think it applies to the question of foodstuffs for Greece. The International Red Cross operates in all occupied countries in Europe. The situation is a little obscure with regard to the Far East. The International Red Cross, as my hon. Friend is aware, operates under the Prisoners of War Convention. The Japanese are signatories to the Convention, but they have never ratified it, and we do not yet know, though we have asked

    1215
    them, whether they intend to observe it or not. We cannot really tell, until we know this, what the position will be in the Far East as far as the Japanese are concerned. I can assure him that the International Red Cross are very much alive to the importance of the Far East and that they are doing everything they can to regularise the position there.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the expenses in connection with His Majesty's Embassies, Missions and Consular Establishments Abroad, and other expenditure chargeable to the Consular Vote; certain special grants and payments, including grants in aid; and sundry other services."

    PUBLIC EDUCATION, SCOTLAND.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for public education in Scotland, for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including sundry grants in aid, and for grants to approved associations, and other expenses in connection with youth welfare."

    MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £255,535, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, and of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, including grants and grants in aid and expenses in respect of agricultural education and research, eradication of diseases of animals, and improvement of breeding, etc., of live stock, land settlement, improvement of cultivation, drainage, etc., regulation of agricultural wages, agricultural credits, and marketing; fishery organisation, research and development, control of diseases of fish, etc.; and sundry other services, including certain remanet subsidy payments."
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): The main items in this sum of £255,000 are £137,000 for salaries, which is accounted for by overtime, bonuses and salary increases to staff owing to the war, and travelling expenses of £28,000, and one of £133,000, which is mainly
    1216
    accounted for by the increased expenditure caused by the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease and the steps that have had to be taken to conquer that disease. Apart from that, the sums involved are very small, and if hon. Members have any particular points of inquiry, I shall be very glad to reply.
    Mr. Quibell: Would the Minister explain the reason for the £60,000 for losses on redemption of loans, &c., lent by the Commissioners under Section 1 of the Agricultural Credits Act?
    Mr. Hudson: That, I understand, is a figure which can never be anticipated or estimated with any degree of accuracy. It really depends upon whether farmers who, some years ago, bought farms and obtained advances for the purpose of doing so, have a good year or a bad year. If they have a good year they are apt to pay off the money borrowed before it becomes due.
    Mr. T. Smith: There are one or two questions which I would like to put to the right hon. Gentleman, in perfectly good faith. Everybody agrees that we need maximum food production, and I think the Department have been doing good work in that direction. In this Estimate we are spending, quite rightly, a good deal of money on research, and I want to ask whether any experiments are taking place, under the aegis of any Department, with what is called hydroponics—that is, soilless cultivation. This is a subject to which in these days it is well worth paying some attention. Some time ago I put down one or two Questions to the Department on this subject. My interest in it was first brought about during a crossing of the Pacific, where, at Wake Island, hydroponics has been practised quite successfully, although, of course, the climatic conditions there are much different from those in this country. But in this country quite a number of separate organisations and people have been paying some attention to this matter, and I would like to know from the Minister whether his Department are co-ordinating or collecting the results of these experiments with a view to seeing whether or not intensive production could be brought about during the war.
    Secondly, I want to raise a question which has been causing some concern in

    1217
    the countryside. I want the Minister to believe me when I say that both sides in the industry are working very well together in trying to obtain maximum food production. I think the Committee would agree that any matter that is likely to cause irritation and any suggestion of hostility ought to receive attention and be removed, if it can be legitimately removed. We have heard, and do hear, especially in war-time, about the need for a prosperous and healthy countryside. Everybody seems to have made up his mind that when this war is over never again will we allow agriculture to go back to the position it was in a few years ago. Quite frankly, I believe that we ought to have, after this war, a healthy and happy countryside and agriculture—
    The Deputy-Chairman: After this war does not come into this Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. Smith: I beg your pardon, Colonel Clifton Brown. That was a slip, but we have at the moment a Committee dealing with rural education. This Committee was appointed by the Minister, and on it there are some men and women who will do their best to think out a good system for rural education. Unfortunately, however, the Minister will not allow on that Committee any representative of the organised agricultural workers. The argument, I am told, is that if he allows any such representative to be on the Committee he must then allow representatives of other organised bodies to be on the Committee, but I would point out that at the present time—
    The Deputy-Chairman: Is the Committee down on the Supplementary Estimate? If it is paid, then maybe it comes under Item 1.
    Mr. Smith: This Committee was appointed by the Minister, and I take it that its expenses must come under his Department. I bow to your ruling, Colonel Clifton Brown, but I think I am entitled to raise the matter either on this or the next Vote.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Only if they are paid a salary. Then they will come under Item 1. Otherwise, the expenses of the Committee are not down on the Supplementary Estimates and cannot be raised.
    Mr. Smith: This is a very wide Estimate, and I would like to ask you, Colonel
    1218
    Clifton Brown, how far can one raise this very important question from the point of view of the agricultural workers. I wish to do it with the best intention in the world and in no spirit of hostile criticism. All I want is to see a settlement of a dispute which is causing some irritation.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I am bound to say that I think the main Estimate is the real time when this should be raised; otherwise there is always an Adjournment Motion when such matters can be raised.
    Mr. Smith: I bow to your ruling. I think the Committee will agree about the importance of this subject, especially so when the organised agricultural workers have no direct representative in this House. However, I will raise the matter again at the appropriate time.
    Mr. Hudson: May I reply to the hon. Gentleman's question about hydroponics? The Agricultural Research Council naturally deal with a very wide range of subjects, and I make it my business to read their proceedings. Speaking from memory, I believe I have seen something about hydroponics lately, but I would not like to be cross-questioned about it at the moment. I will, however, find out and let the hon. Member know.
    Mr. Price: I see that there is a sum of £133,000 for animal diseases, and I see also that it mainly concerns expenses in connection with foot-and-mouth disease. But important as that disease is, there are others. If this sum covers only foot-and-mouth disease and a little swine fever, I must point out, as the Minister knows, that tuberculosis, Johne's disease and mastitis are very serious diseases of the dairying industry which are causing tremendous losses every year. I know the Minister has a scheme in hand which, owing to certain technical difficulties, cannot for the moment be put into operation, but I hope he will be able to give some assurance that something will be done. Although I do not want to see the sum raised unduly—we must all be careful in these times to see that money is not unnecessarily spent—I would like to see something more than an expenditure on foot-and-mouth disease.
    As regards the amounts for agricultural research, the increases, I see, come to about £27,000. It is not easy in these times to carry on agricultural research, as the universities and research stations are

    1219
    having their staffs very much reduced and the younger people are being called up. But I hope this research work will be carried on. The agricultural industry is faced with special problems in war-time which were not present in peace-time, and it is, therefore, important to keep agricultural research going. For instance, the feeding-stuffs given to cattle now are different from what they were in peace time. Much less is imported, and indeed, very little is imported; much more homegrown feeding-stuffs are used, and in my opinion this is much better for the animals. Further research is needed into the values of feeding-stuffs such as silage and the various home-grown things which we are producing. This research work through the Universities and research stations must be continued, and the Committee must not stint the money necessary for this work.
    Under Item H.3, there is a reduction of £5,290 on the National Stud. Does this mean a general reduction in the work which the Ministry have done hitherto in improving livestock? The farming community has been much concerned because it has not been possible to get fees granted from the Ministry, as they were formerly granted in peace time, to various societies which exist for the purpose of sending round stallions to improve the breed of horses. I do not think we can altogether ignore the horse in these days. It is an age of tractors, but even now the horse has enormous value. It is causing considerable concern to the farming community that nothing is now being done to keep alive the breeding of good cart horses. Does this reduction of £5,290 mean that nothing is to be done in this respect?
    Mr. Hudson: The National Stud has nothing to do with cart horses.
    Mr. Price: That is what I wanted to know. I understand the position. In regard to Item J.5, there is a reduction of £90,000 in respect of land drainage grants. Does this mean that work in this respect is decreasing? As a result of the last Agriculture Act, we were glad to think that there were very considerable facilities for farmers to carry out upland drainage and also grants to local catchment boards, and that these would remove the difficulties which there had been hitherto in carrying out all-round
    1220
    drainage schemes and dealing with waterlogged land. I should like to have some explanations on the points I have raised.
    Mr. David Adams: I should like to ask whether steps are being taken to expend moneys in improving the quality of low-grade farms, of which there are many thousands in the country. It is well known that our great local authorities have for long complained, through their local medical officers of health, of the quality of much of the milk coming into their districts.
    The Deputy-Chairman: Milk does not come under the Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. Adams: Would I not be in Order in asking that money should be expended for the purpose of improving the quality of farms?
    The Deputy-Chairman: That would be out of Order on this Supplementary Estimate.
    Mr. Adams: Then I shall have to raise the matter in another way, because it is time it was raised. Diseases in cows are very prevalent indeed, and owing to the poverty of many of the farming community, there is no examination of their cows. The veterinary officers do not attend from one year to the next. Therefore, I want to ask the Minister whether he will schedule tuberculosis as being a liability on the community in such cases, so that herds which are notoriously tubercular can be examined in the public interest
    Sir E. Shepperson: With regard to agricultural research, I understand that generous grants are being made to the various agricultural schools at Cambridge and also to Rothamsted and Fareham. I should like to have an assurance that the results of the activities of these various bodies are co-ordinated and that there is not overlapping in the research work which they are doing. I do not think it is possible to lay too great emphasis upon the value of agricultural research. Recently we have been told of the value of vitamins in order that we may get the greatest possible value out of the food we consume. Similar studies in regard to the values of foods which plants can absorb from the soil and the air are essential. To my mind, it is no good getting theoretical results from research unless

    1221
    those results can be practically applied. I understand that in various parts of the country the Ministry have established experimental farms where these results can be practically applied, and if that be the case, I should think it is the most valuable asset which the Ministry could present to agriculture at the present time.
    Mr. Snadden: With regard to the Item concerning the exportation of pedigree stock, there is an expenditure of £900 in connection with the upkeep of the quarantine station at Glasgow. I am not quite clear what the £900 means, and I should be glad if the Minister would explain it.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (Mr. T. Williams): The answer to the hon. Member for West Perth (Mr. Snadden) is that the £900 refers to the Ministry's contribution towards the expenses of the quarantine station at Glasgow, although I am not certain at the moment of the period of time which this Item covers. My hon. Friend the Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) referred to diseases of animals—Johne's disease and tuberculosis—and I need hardly say that that is a matter which is receiving active consideration constantly. The amount of money that is made available for research into diseases of animals generally is being increased rather than decreased all the time.
    The second question related to G.4, Agricultural Research Expenses. It is obvious to anyone that this Supplementary Estimate has been increased, but, in spite of the continued increase to the Treasury, I think that the value to agriculture has also been increased. Next comes the question of the National Stud. This matter can be explained away in a few sentences. The National Stud bred two beautiful racehorses which were leased to His Majesty. They both won many races and added materially to the Exchequer. Some of the other horses were sold for good prices, and I am hopeful that we shall be as fortunate again this year. My hon. Friend the Member for Consett (Mr. David Adams) referred to milk. That question is certainly worth consideration. He will remember, of course, that all milk premiums paid to farmers are intended to assist in clearing up tuberculosis and other diseases. It is a slow process, which I should like to see
    1222
    expedited, and I can assure my hon. Friend that no efforts will be spared in trying to safeguard the health of children and others.
    Mr. David Adams: Is it intended to make the tuberculosis examination of cows a public charge?
    Mr. Williams: That matter hardly comes within the scope of this Supplementary Estimate. As my hon. Friend knows, the cost of examination is borne jointly between two bodies, but it is rather a big question, and one can hardly deal with the whole field of animal diseases on this Vote. Agricultural research is co-ordinated by the Agricultural Research Council. Unfortunately, in the past there has been too long a gap between discovery and translation of discovery to the farmer. My right hon. Friend has recently set up an Agricultural Improvement Council, whose duty it is to see that as rapidly as possible the discoveries of scientists are handed on to the farmers. I am convinced that the revision which has taken place will be of inestimable value to agriculture, and that it will ensure that agriculture derives the maximum benefit from the researches of the "backroom boys" of agriculture.
    Mr. Price: Can my hon. Friend state the reasons for the reduction of £90,000?
    Mr. Williams: The apparent saving of £90,000 was due to certain schemes which had to be approved by the Department. Certain land produced crops much more quickly than land for which drainage schemes had hitherto been prepared. At the same time I would point out that drainage work is going on at a much more rapid rate to-day.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £255,535, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, and of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, including grants and grants in aid and expenses in respect of agricultural education and research, eradication of diseases of animals, and improvement of breeding, &c., of live stock, land settlement, improvement of cultivation, drainage, &c., regulation of agricultural wages, agricultural credits and marketing; fishery organisation, research and development, control of diseases of fish, &c.; and sundry other services including certain remanet subsidy payments."

    MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (WAR SERVICES).
    Motion made, and Question Proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries."
    Captain Crookshank: It would save considerable trouble and unnecessary repetition if I explained at this stage that the next six Votes are purely technical Votes, required owing to our accountancy procedure. They have little or nothing to do with the Departments concerned. Ever since 1894 the Annual Appropriation Acts have set specific limits to the Appropriations-in-Aid for each of the Votes. These limits are the amount shown in each of the Estimates under the headings of Appropriations-in-Aid. Of course, in the case of these War Services and Unclassified Services, where we deal in the region of £100 and £10 token Votes, it is quite clear, unless we came and asked for further permission to use Appropriations-in-Aid, that the Department concerned would have to surrender to the Exchequer all sums over £100 and £10. As I say, a £10 Vote is only to be taken as a token Vote. The result would be most inconvenient, since it would mean that you would be unnecessarily swelling both the Exchequer and Budget accounts, because you would have to pour in the large sums which, under present circumstances, are received as Appropriations-in-Aid.
    The more sensible thing to do is for the Department concerned to use what it gets from various sources under these Services as its own Appropriations-in-Aid, and use them as a set-off for its own expenditure. These figures cannot be estimated early in the year, because one does not know the region they will reach. Hon. Members can see that the Appropriations differ very much—one is for £10, one for £3,500,000 and one for £7,000,000. It is to deal with that purely technical point that I rise to make this explanation to the Committee. I am sure Ministers of the Departments concerned will be prepared to answer any questions, but we must bear in mind that these matters are confidential because they deal with war supplies. I think with that explanation I may have put at rest any anxieties hon.
    1224
    Members may have that there is something strange in this procedure.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: We all realise, following the explanation, that this is a matter dealing with the technicalities of accountancy. There are, however, one or two of these Unclassified Votes, and one in particular, to which I would like to refer. Perhaps I would be in Order in asking the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health to reply to my questions which affect her Department.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I shall have to put each Vote separately. I would point out that no questions can be asked except those relating to accountancy.
    Mr. Davies: May I ask a question in relation to accountancy affecting the Ministry of Health Vote?
    The Deputy-Chairman: Yes, when that Vote comes before us.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the cost of the war services of the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries."

    MINISTRY OF AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Aircraft Production."

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH (WAR SERVICES).
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for measures in England and Wales to deal with casualties and disease, for expenses connected with evacuation, for repair of war damage and for other services arising out of the war."
    Mr. Rhys Davies: The. Department of Health for Scotland have issued their annual Report, and I want to know whether we are now passing this sum in order to cover an amount which will meet the expenses of the issue of the annual Report of the Ministry of Health, for which I have asked half a dozen times

    1225
    and of which promises have been made, though the Report has not been issued yet. It has to be paid for. The printer will not print it unless he gets a cheque from the Treasury.
    The Deputy-Chairman: That has nothing to do with the Appropriation-in-Aid.
    Mr. Davies: May I put the question thus—whether in this sum there is an amount allotted to cover the expenses of printing the annual Report, which ought to have been printed and published long ago?
    Sir Adam Maitland: I should like to put a question with regard to war damage.
    The Deputy-Chairman: I am afraid we cannot discuss any individual subjects. The question is merely whether a sum shall be credited to the Treasury or back to the Department. We cannot discuss individual sections of the expenditure.
    Sir A. Maitland: Before deciding whether or not the sum should be transferred or re-transferred, will provision be made in order that the loss of rates through providing for war damage—
    The Deputy-Chairman: That comes under the general Estimate and not under this.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for measures in England and Wales to deal with casualties and disease, for expenses connected with evacuation, for repair of war damage and for other services arising out of the war."

    MINISTRY OF HOME SECURITY.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of Home Security."

    MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses
    1226
    of the Ministry of Supply, including the expenses of the Royal Ordnance Factories."

    MINISTRY OF WAR TRANSPORT.
    Resolved,
    "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £10 be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1942, for the salaries and expenses of the Ministry of War Transport."
    Resolutions to be reported upon the next Sitting Day; Committee to sit again upon the next Sitting Day.

  LANDLORD AND TENANT (REQUISITIONED LAND) [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  "That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the disclaimer of leases comprising land of which possession has been taken in the exercise of emergency powers and (among other matters) for requiring the continuance after possession of such land has been taken as aforesaid of certain services provided by the landlord, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of periodical sums in respect of the provision of any such services."
  Resolution agreed to.

  LANDLORD AND TENANT (REQUISITIONED LAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

  LANDLORD AND TENANT (REQUISITIONED LAND) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Right to disclaim certain leases of requisitioned land.)
    Mr. Rostron Duckworth: I beg to move, in page 1, line 11, after "business," to insert:
    "or on offer to let for any of these purposes."
    The reason for this Amendment is that it should give power to disclaim on requisitioning on the part of leaseholders who have temporarily vacated their premises, a right which is possessed now by occupying tenants. Unless this is altered, it appears to me that another injustice will be added to the very many which are suffered by leaseholders who have had to vacate their premises, owing possibly to enemy action or police advice or sickness, or perhaps for urgent family reasons. In most of these cases they would rather have remained in their premises, but they have been compelled to vacate them, and it seems a little unfair that the benefits of

    1227
    the Bill, which are really rather considerable, should apply only to those in occupation of their premises. It may be said that if the premises are empty, they need not trouble about the requisitioning, but there is always a financial loss where property is requisitioned, the unfortunate leaseholder is not able to sublet it and must continue to hold it as long as the Government remains in possession, and he cannot enter into possession of the property again while it is requisitioned. For all those reasons I think the case is on all fours with that of an occupying tenant.
    Dr. Russell Thomas: I should like to support the Amendment. My hon. Friend has put the matter very clearly. The Amendment appears fair, just and equitable. It seems to me extraordinary that a tenant who is not in possession should be put in a disadvantageous position as compared with a tenant in possession. It may well be that a tenant who is out of possession had to leave the premises for some reason connected with the war, something beyond his control. It may well be that the Government will retain possession for a very considerable time—and the tenant not in possession will have the lease hanging like a mill-stone around his neck, whereas the tenant in possession will be free to disclaim. We do not know how long the war will last—and I feel that Parliament should do everything it can to protect and help people who have suffered by it. It is not always possible to protect everyone but we should do everything we can when opportunity offers. I feel that when it is possible we should do this, and this, in my opinion, is a fair case. I therefore ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to adopt this Amendment, or an Amendment that will do something similar in substance and spirit. In these words I beg to support my hon. Friend.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir William Jowitt): I am sorry that we cannot accept the Amendment. This Clause deals only with the case where premises have been requisitioned, and it follows the lines of the report made by Mr. Morris, who investigated this question. We have to hold the scales evenly and fairly, as far as we can, between landlord and tenant. Landlords are not all rich people who need not be considered. The landlords
    1228
    have given voice to some complaints about this matter for the following reason: We are giving the tenant an option, and he will exercise it only where it suits him. Where premises have been requisitioned, they may be, for instance, on the East or South-East coast, where they have gone down considerably in value, or they may be in the suburbs of London, where they have gone up in value. In some cases the tenant will make a good thing out of the requisition, because he will get from the occupying Department more than he is paying to his landlord. In other cases he will do badly for he will get less than he is paying to his landlord. The grievance of the landlords is that the tenant will always exercise the option in cases where it is to his advantage and not in the other cases, and the landlord will be left with the latter cases.
    We have, following Mr. Morris's advice, limited this matter to a strict class of case; that is to say, we have dealt only with cases where tenants are in actual occupation. Short leases where the tenants are in actual occupation seem to us to be cases of special hardship, and we think it right to deal with those cases. If, however, we once go round that and open the door wide and depart from Mr. Morris's recommendation, all the landlords will be saying that this Bill is a monstrous injustice. That is why we do not think it proper to go beyond the narrow limits to which we have deliberately confined the Bill.
    Mr. Rostron Duckworth: I am rather impressed by the explanation given by my right hon. and learned Friend, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out from "the," to "serve," in line 15, and to insert "material date."
    This is a matter of drafting. We have repeatedly in the Bill referred to a long phrase, and I am proposing to take out that phrase and substitute the words "material date," and in the definition Clause to define what the material date is.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 2, line 33, leave out from the first "the," to "direct," in line 35, and insert "material date."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 2.—(Effect of notice of disclaimer.)
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 3, line 3, to leave out from "the" to the end of the line, and to insert, "notice shall become effective."
    This is a suggested drafting Amendment. As Sub-section (1) is worded, although the words which I suggest should be struck out are applicable to Sub-section (2), they are not applicable to Subsections (3) and (4). In these circumstances, I suggest that the proper thing to do is to take them out and put in the words I suggest, with the consequential Amendments later on the Paper.
    The Solicitor-General: We are ready to accept this and many of the Amendments, which stand in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens), and we are grateful to him for moving them. They have their origin largely in the fact that the Law Society have gone carefully through this Bill and have made many drafting suggestions. I suggested that they should get in touch with the Parliamentary draftsman. They did so, and the large number of Amendments which my hon. and learned Friend is good enough to sponsor are the result of that arrangement. I am very grateful both to the Law Society and to my hon. and learned Friend for taking this trouble about the Bill and suggesting these Amendments.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further amendments made:
    In page 3, line 9, at the beginning, insert:
    "Where a notice of disclaimer has become effective."—[Mr. Spens.]
    In page 3, leave out lines 11 to 160, and insert, "as from the material date."
    In line 20, at the beginning, insert:
    "Where notice of disclaimer has become effective."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    In line 26, leave out "landlord such part (if any) of," and insert "person entitled to."
    In line 29, after "1939," insert "such part (if any) of that compensation."
    In line 30, leave out "landlord," and insert "said person."—[Mr. Spens.]
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 3, line 32, at the end, to insert:
    "The person who, at the end of the period for which possession of the land is so retained, is entitled to occupy the land, shall, if the tenant has served on him a notice requesting to be informed when that period comes to an end and specifying the address to which the information is to be sent, serve a notice accordingly giving that information, and the tenant may exercise his right of removing the fixtures at any time after the end of the said period, and not later than one month after the service of the notice by the said person.
    (4) Where any holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, is disclaimed under this Act—

    (a) the tenancy shall, for the purposes of sections nine and ten of that Act, he deemed to terminate at the date on which the notice of disclaimer becomes effective in accordance with subsection (1) of this section:

    (b) nothing in the foregoing subsection shall apply to any of the fixtures mentioned in section twenty-two of that Act, and the reference in that section to a reasonable time after the termination of the tenancy shall be construed as a reference to a reasonable time after possession of the land taken in the exercise of emergency powers has been given up."

    As the Bill is drafted, it apparently applies to the agricultural leases to which the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923, is applicable. It appears, however, that there may be some legal difficulties in making the Bill agree with the provisions of that Act. These Amendments are put down in order that it may be quite sure that, although the lease does come to an end under this Act, the tenant shall get the benefit of the provisions in his favour, and vice versa the landlord, under the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923. This Amendment is put down to make sure that we are not preventing that Act operating.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 33, leave out from "Where to" this "in line 34, and insert "a notice of disclaimer has been served under."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, to leave out from "person," to the first "the," in line 36, and to insert "having a mortgage or charge in respect of."
    This is little more than a drafting Amendment. The words in the Bill are somewhat indefinite. They are intended to refer to a person having a mortgage or

    1231
    charge upon the property, and the suggestion is that the Bill should say so.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 41, after "modifications," insert "as the court thinks just."—[Mr. Spens.]
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 3, line 42, to leave out "or," and to insert
    "and, in particular, require the tenant to pay such sum as it thinks just in respect of any dilapidations which have already occurred and for which the tenant is liable or would (but for the disclaimer) become liable;
    (c) on the application of the landlord or the tenant, make such adaptations and modifications as it thinks just of any term of the lease."
    This Amendment is little more than a clarification of the Bill. We thought that the words already used did include this liability, but in order to avoid doubt we want to make it plain that the court may, in dealing with a matter as between landlord and tenant, have regard to what I may call accrued dilapidations and make the tenant pay something in respect of the position as it existed at the time.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 3, line 43, leave out "may be effected by," and insert "will take effect on."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    In line 45, leave out from "before," to the end of line 46, and insert "the notice of disclaimer becomes effective."
    In page 4, line 2, leave out "an interest in," and insert "a mortgage or charge in respect of."—[Mr. Spens.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 3.—(Multiple leases.)
    Amendments made:
    In page 4, line 25, leave out from the second "the" to "apply" in line 28, and insert "material date."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    In page 5, line 11, at the end, insert "to be disclaimed."—[Mr. Spens.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 4.—(Miscellaneous matters arising in consequence of disclaimer.)
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 5, line 41, after "unless," to insert "before the payment is made."
    1232
    This Amendment and the subsequent one both go to the same point—that in the Bill as drafted there seems doubt as to what authority is referred to, and the two Amendments define the authority which is meant.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 42, leave out "before the payment is made," and insert:
    "by whom possession of the land comprised in the lease has been taken."—[Mr. Spens.]
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 6, line 2, at the end, to insert:
    "The payment of compensation as aforesaid to the said person as agent of the landlord shall not be taken as implying that the landlord is bound by any agreement made between that person and the said authority as to the amount of the compensation."
    We want to make it plain that if there is an agreement between the agent of the landlord and the requisitioning authority to which the landlord is not a party it does not bind the landlord.
    Amendment agreed to.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 6, line 6, to leave out from "tenant," to the end of line 13, and to insert:
    "any compensation under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of section two of the Compensation (Defence) Act, 1939, accruing due in respect of the land during the period beginning with the material date and ending with the date on which the notice of disclaimer becomes effective or, as the case may be, is decided by the court to be of no effect shall, for the purposes of section eleven of the said Act (which limits the time for claiming compensation), be deemed only to accrue due at the end of the said period."
    This Amendment is really a clarification, intended to make it plain that during a period of uncertainty when one does not know whether or not a disclaimer is effective or not, there shall be no running of the time against a person who might have a claim under the Compensation Act. In these circumstances the period within which a claim can be made runs from the date when the notice of disclaimer becomes effective or when the notice of disclaimer is found not to be effective.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 5.—(Special provisions where lease requires landlord to pay rates, provide services, etc.).
    Amendments made:
    In page 6, line 16, leave out from "and," to end of line 18, and insert:
    "by virtue of any term of the lease or of any contract collateral thereto."
    In line 19, leave out "by reason that."
    In line 24, leave out "by reason that."
    In line 26, leave out "by reason that."
    In line 36, leave out "would have been," and insert:
    "might reasonably have been expected to la."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, in page 7, line 13, to leave out "was or."
    This Amendment and the one which follows are intended to define and confine the services which the landlord may be called upon to give to the requisitioning authority, and I think they clarify the position.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 7, line 13, leave out from "required" to "taken," in line 14, and insert:
    "by the tenant if possession of the land had not been."
    In line 26, leave out from "which" to "and," in line 27, and insert:
    "the notice of disclaimer becomes effective"—[Mr. Spens.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 6 and 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 8.—(Leases to which this Act applies.)
    Amendment made: In page 10, line 11, leave out Sub-section (2).—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 10.—(Interpretation.)
    Amendments made:
    In page 11, line 9, at the end, insert:
    "'material date,' in relation to any occasion on which possession of the land or any part of the land comprised in a lease has been taken on behalf of His Majesty in the exercise of emergency powers, means—

    1234

    (a) where the occasion was before the passing of this Act, the date of the passing of this Act;

    (b) in any other case, the date on which the land or part of the land was so taken."

    In line 25, at the end, insert:
    "and any reference to the rent payable under a lease shall be construed as including a reference to any such sum as aforesaid."—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    CLAUSE 11.—(Provisions as to Scotland and Northern Ireland.)
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 12, line 22, at the end, to insert:
    "(c) references to a Government Department shall include references to a Department of the Government of Northern Ireland."
    We make this Amendment at the request of the Government of Northern Ireland, who desire to come into the Bill.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Provision where land is requisitioned by stages.)
    (1) Where—

    (a) possession of part of the land comprised in a lease has been taken and is retained on behalf of His Majesty in the exercise of emergency powers and the lease has not been disclaimed;

    (b) possession of the remainder or part of the remainder of the land is on a subsequent occasion so taken and retained; and

    (c) the tenant cannot, on the subsequent occasion, serve a notice of disclaimer or obtain a direction enabling him to serve such a notice because possession of part of the land has already been taken as aforesaid, and in consequence the necessary conditions cannot be fulfilled;

    the court may, on the application of the tenant made within three months from the date which is the material date in relation to the subsequent occasion, if in all the circumstances of the case it considers it equitable to do so, direct that the tenant shall be at liberty to serve, within such period as may be specified, a notice of disclaimer in respect of the lease, which, in the case of a multiple lease, may either be in respect of the lease as a whole or in respect of one or more of the separate tenements comprised therein.
    (2) Sub-section (3) of Section one of this Act shall not apply to any notice of disclaimer served in pursuance of a direction given under the last foregoing sub-section, but the court shall not give such a direction unless the landlord is a party to the proceedings.—[The Solicitor-General.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    The object of this proposal is to deal with the case where a requisitioning takes place piecemeal, where you have two or more bites at the cherry, so to speak. In the end, the whole of the premises may be requisitioned, yet at any one time it may not be possible to say that the conditions for disclaimer are present. We hope to put this matter right by inserting the proposed new Clause. This is little more than a technicality to prevent certain difficulties arising.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

    NEW CLAUSE.—(Provisions in case where tenant is abroad at material date.)
    (1) Where possession of land comprised in a lease has been taken on behalf of His Majesty in the exercise of emergency powers and the tenant was outside the United Kingdom for the whole or the greater part of the period of three months from the material date, and the court is satisfied, on an application made by the tenant within a reasonable time after his return to the United Kingdom, that it was not reasonably practicable for him to exercise his rights under the provisions of this Act relating to disclaimer, or to give the necessary authority for the exercise of those rights on his behalf, the court may, if it thinks fit, extend the period for the exercise of those rights.
    (2) Where possession of land comprised in a lease has been taken as aforesaid, and the tenant was outside the United Kingdom at the material date, or left the United Kingdom shortly after the material date without having a reasonable opportunity to exercise or secure the exercise of his rights under the provisions of this Act relating to disclaimer, and the court is satisfied, on an application made by any other person while the tenant remains outside the United Kingdom,—

    (a) that it is not reasonably practicable to obtain instructions from the tenant as to the exercise of the said rights; and

    (b) that the applicant is a proper person to exercise those rights on behalf of the tenant;

    the court may, if it thinks fit, direct that those rights may be exercised by the applicant on behalf of the tenant and may, if necessary, extend the period for the exercise thereof.
    (3) Where the court extends under this section the period for exercising the rights of any tenant, the court may, if it thinks fit, direct that, if the lease is disclaimed, the surrender thereof shall, instead of taking effect as from the material date, take effect as from such later date as the court may direct.—[Mr. Spens.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    Mr. Spens: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This proposal should be of real service. It covers the case where a tenant is abroad at the time the requisitioning notice is served, or is about to go abroad, leaving his family in his home or a manager in charge of his business. It is thought likely that he will be ignorant of the option afforded to him by the Bill and therefore would not be able to exercise it in the requisite time. Under the proposed new Clause, arrangements are made for the tenant to be given a further opportunity when he returns of taking advantage of the Bill.
    The Solicitor-General: I have very much pleasure in accepting the proposed new Clause. I agree with the hon. and learned Member that it is necessary to deal with the position of the tenant who is abroad or is about to go abroad and has no time to look around to see what his rights are. The Clause is a real improvement of the Bill.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
    Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered upon the next Sitting Day, and to be printed [Bill 14].

  FINANCE (No. 2) ACT, 1940.
  Resolved,
  "That the Purchase Tax (Exemptions) (No. 1) Order, 1942, dated 27th January, 1942, made by the Treasury under Section 20 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1940, a copy of which was presented to this House on 28th January, be approved.—[Captain Crookshank.]

  GOLD COAST (GIN IMPORTS).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Whiteley.]
  Mr. Barr: I beg to bring before the House a subject to which I have addressed myself by Question in this House and in other ways for a considerable time. I refer to the permitted allowance of imports of geneva or gin into the Gold Coast, and to the Ordinances connected therewith. In the decade following the close of the Great War, there was a vast increase in the importations of liquor into West Africa generally. In

  1237
  particular, gin importations from 1919 to 1926, seven years, grew by no less an amount than 716 per cent. This general increase of gin imports was particularly large in the Gold Coast where, in 1926, the percentage of imports of gin to all other imports of spirits was no less than 91.34.
  The resultant degradation and misery among the native population came to be generally admitted. When Lord Passfield was Secretary of State for the Colonies, an Ordinance came into operation, after long investigation, a special Commission having sat on the subject, in the beginning of 1931. Under that Ordinance there was to be a gradual decrease of the amount that could be imported, by 10 per cent. each year, until the quantity of geneva or gin was completely eliminated by 1940. While those who had at heart the interests of the natives in this regard were waiting for this promised time, an Ordinance was passed by the Governor of the Gold Coast entirely departing from the old Ordinance, and this was followed in December, 1939, by a Proclamation of the Governor permitting the importation of 150,000 Imperial gallons into the Gold Coast during 1940.
  It was pointed out by deputations, and by other people interested in this matter, that this was a very large amount, especially when it had been expected that the traffic would come to an end. We are grateful to the Ministry and to the Under-Secretary of State, but it was represented to the Governor that he might reopen the question. At any rate, the Under-Secretary of State was able to announce on 5th February, 1941, a year ago, that the quota for 1941 for civilian requirements in the Gold Coast was being fixed at 73,500 gallons. In fixing the former figure of 150,000 gallons, regard had been had particularly to what had been allowed, and admitted in 1937, the highest year of the nine years, and the only year in which the amount consumed exceeded the amount allowed.
  In fixing 73,500 gallons an average was taken over the previous nine years, although regard was not had to the fact that in the last of those nine years the amount imported and consumed had fallen as low as 22,332 gallons. If those responsible took the average importation for the nine years, why should they not
  1238
  now take the average of the two years of the new régime? That would give an allowance, as far as I have the figures, of 8,217 gallons, as the average imported for 1940 and 1941, the amount fixed being about nine times that amount. When the former figure of 150,000 gallons, which however has passed out of our view was fixed, the consumption for that year—1940—was 7,934, and the quota fixed was 19 times that amount. Why are they retaining these inflated figures? Why not take the average of what has been coming in, adding slightly to it perhaps for contingencies? I hope I am doing no injustice in suggesting it, but it seems almost as if a wide open door is being kept for the trade after the war in maintaining the figure at 73,500 gallons when the actual importation is 7,934 gallons in 1940, that for 1941 being some 8,000.
  The Government give two reasons for departing from the former policy. The first reason is that if they carried out the policy of the prohibition of the import of gin, it would be likely to result in a further growth of illicit distillation. The fear of illicit distillation has been brought forward whenever there has been a demand for some drastic restriction on the liquor traffic whether at home or abroad, but we are still left without proof that this illicit distillation has grown on the Gold Coast, or would grow to any extent, as a result of such restriction. I attach considerable importance to the view of those on the spot, and particularly to the mission stations and to the governors of missions in those parts. The secretary of the Scottish Mission of the Church of Scotland in the Gold Coast Colony, writing to me from Accra on 28th May last said this:
  "There has been illicit distillation, although actually, at the moment so far as is known to me, it is less prevalent than it was two or three years ago. The Government, however, bring out this bogy of illicit distillation as an excuse for increasing the quota of gin imported. It is even stated in the 'Gazette,' where the object of the new legislation is fully set down, that this was designed to prevent an increase in illicit distillation, but there is however no proof at all that there has been any such increase; and indeed one of the Governor's own publications states as much."
  The second reason is that the chiefs are now against prohibition and that the unofficial members of the Legislative Council, both European and African, are in favour of the new Ordinance. The

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  latter are elected from provincial councils which, themselves, consist of chiefs representing various native states on the Gold Coast. I believe that is the case, and I am not going to question the representative character of those who have so determined; but I am of opinion that those bodies of chiefs, the legislative councils and others, are subject to changes of policy just as much as political leaders in this country; and that their doctrines, there as here, are often fashioned to the varying hour. At least some of those who support the new Ordinance have spoken strongly against the evils of this traffic, and have declared themselves as much opposed to gin as to geneva. I am not very well versed in these distinctions between geneva and gin, but I understand that geneva is gin manufactured in a pot-still instead of in a patent-still. But going back to the days of Lord Passfield, when the chiefs asked, in the first instance, for the exclusion of geneva, I think I am right in saying that Lord Passfield insisted that the same restrictions should, in fairness, be put upon gin as upon geneva. He also recognised at the time that it was the wish of the Government and of the people of the Gold Coast that gin as well as geneva should not be allowed to enter.
  May I quote what was said by a paramount chief of the Gold Coast, Sir Oforio Atta, when addressing the West African section of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce on 17th July, 1928. He said:
  "Imports of gin had become a serious menace to the prosperity of his people; if the African was to become the right type of man and useful to the Empire, let the export of gin from this country be stopped. If this country stopped, Holland would stop too."
  I would like to ask whether these spirits, gin or geneva, have lost their potency in any way, that there should be such a Change of policy? I want to make it quite clear that I am making no general accusation of drunkenness amongst the natives of the Gold Coast, but there are great excesses in connection with certain customs of that country and particularly in connection with funeral Customs. On the 28th March, 1928, the Bishop of Accra wrote in the "Times" describing his observations of those funeral Customs in a village and he said:
  "For a week at a time every man and woman and not a few children are drunk, some of them in a torpid and some in a raving condition."
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  That is a good way back, but I wanted to give this testimony as near as I could get to the present time, and we have no testimony of the kind during these war years. But the Rev. Kenneth Horne, a Methodist minister in the Gold Coast, and now secretary of the Christian Council of the Gold Coast, speaking in London on 21st October, 1935, said:
  "Drunkenness is not now so common but that at funerals a large amount of liquor is consumed, resulting in much demoralisation and debauchery."
  These funeral ceremonies sometimes go on to the eighth day after the decease and sometimes to the fourteenth or later days. The chiefs have sought, from time to time, to remedy matters, but, so far, with little result. One way in which they tried to remedy it was to prescribe that amounts spent on spirits should not be more than one-third of the total expenditure on the funeral. Another way was by drawing up schedules limiting expenditure according to the rank of the deceased.
  Thus, for the death of a paramount chief, they were allowed to spend from £150 to £200; for the death of a divisional chief, £25; for the death of common persons, £5 to £10; and a labourer was rated from £2 10s. to £6. How much of this quota which the Minister allows is being devoted to the upkeep of these Customs? Would it not be possible for him, along with the chiefs, who have asked, time and again, for the restriction of these practices, to bring about a better state of things? The other occasion on which much liquor is consumed is in connection with the installation and deposition of chiefs. When a chief rises to what we would call Cabinet rank there are great rejoicings, accompanied by much drinking. Also at the deposition of a chief, when he loses his rank, there are similar jollifications and excesses. We can think of what jollifications there might be if some of our Cabinet were to lose their rank.
  How is this matter related to the general policy of the Government? I would pay a tribute to the high ideals that have always inspired the Colonial Office of this country. I refer particularly to the Colonial Development Act of 1929, whereby the spending of up to £1,000,000 a year on colonial development is allowed.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): We can spend up to £5,000,000.
  Mr. Barr: I thank my hon. Friend. It was £1,000,000 in the original Act. I am glad to know that, and what he says still further emphasises my point. In the eleventh and final report of the Colonial Development Advisory Committee, I find that £8,870,000 was spent in the years covered by the first eleven reports. The objects for which these advances were to be made were these:
  "The aiding and development of agriculture and industry in their territories, and the promotion thereby of commerce with, and industry in, the United Kingdom."
  Traffic in gin is not really commerce, nor does it aid industry. The word "trade" is a misnomer, and has been a misnomer in the past in this regard. When the slave traffic existed in this country it proudly bore the name "the trade"; and it was justly said at the time that it was war and not trade. There is a trade in this country which we euphemistically or ironically sometimes call "the trade"; and we might say of it that oft-time it has been more war than trade. As regards policy, I was greatly interested in Lord Moyne's despatch on 5th June last on "Certain Aspects of Colonial Policy in War-time." He said this:
  "The low standards of living of vast populations throughout the Colonial Empire was distressing."
  He further said:
  "It is an imperative duty to do all that is practically possible to raise the standard of living of such people, even during the war period, alike for humanitarian, political, economic and administrative reasons."
  I would say that the quantity of gin imported is in inverse ratio to what you will do in the fulfilment of these high ideals. I would call the attention of this House to the high ideals it has always expressed on this subject. At the end of every war there has been a movement to bring to an end, or greatly restrict, this deluging of the natives of various countries with liquor, be it gin or geneva, or any other form. It is interesting to know that at the close of the Boer War Lord Milner, in promulgating an Ordinance prohibiting, under severe penalties, the supply of liquor to natives in the Transvaal and the Orange River Colonies said:
  "There is no doubt that the new Administration has before it a severe struggle with
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  one of the most powerful, as it is one of the most degraded, agencies for making money by the corruption of one's fellow-creatures."
  And again, after alluding to the great difficulty of making the law effective, he made use of the following striking words:
  "The whole credit of this Administration is at stake in the matter, and I feel confident that His Majesty's Government will support us in the view that no effort and no expense should be spared in carrying out a policy which, if successful, will mean a tremendous triumph for civilisation in this part of the world."
  So, at the end of the last war the right hon. Walter Long, M.P.—whom no one could accuse of being over-prejudiced in favour of the temperance cause, or in favour of prohibition—as Secretary of State for the Colonies immediately after the Armistice, on 28th December, 1918, declared:
  "It will be my duty to advise the representatives of the British Government at the Peace Conference to take steps on their own initiative for the abolition of the liquor traffic in West Africa. We ought to put an end to it, for it certainly has been conducive to great evil and great misfortune."
  Again, I ask, have these liquors lost their potency, that a much different attitude is now being taken up from the attitude taken by statesmen like the late Walter Long?
  And we must never forget as entirely relevant, and still binding, the exacting doctrine of trusteeship. That doctrine was never better stated than by the Duke of Devonshire as Colonial Secretary, in his historic memorandum on "Indians in Kenya." He gave it as the considered and definite opinion of His Majesty's Government that:
  "The interests of the African natives must be paramount and must prevail."
  He added these words:
  "His Majesty's Government regard themselves as exercising a trust on behalf of the African population, and they are unable to delegate or share that trust, the object of which may be defined as the protection and advancement of the native races."
  I trust that the Noble Lord who is now Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Under-Secretary will seek to give embodiment to these words, and that the interests of the natives will be paramount, and their advancement and protection the supreme consideration. Let us not forget this high doctrine of trusteeship. Let us not degrade, let us not exploit the natives, but purify and uplift them in all

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  these matters in their forward march to self-government, and in their upward and onward march, as we trust, towards a higher, purer and better life.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. George Hall): My hon. Friend has waited very patiently for this opportunity of raising a matter in which he is very interested. He has made a speech, as he usually does, of very great eloquence and force. I, like a number of my hon. Friends, have listened with a good deal of pleasure to the speeches of my hon. Friend in the past. There was one thing lacking in his speech to-day. We are always very pleased to hear his quotations from his national poet, but today he did not bring him in to support this request for the suppression of liquor in West Africa.
  Mr. Barr: I should be very sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend or to hold him back in what he was about to say, but I am very jealous for the good name of my national poet. As a matter of fact, he tells about the good resolutions which he made and which, he says,
  "were three times over upset by the savage hospitality of the tavern."
  There is a "savage hospitality" of importation as well as of the tavern. The other thing that he said, in his Commonplace Book was that he adjured:
  "All who in after time shall ever light upon his pages, by a devil's dear-bought experience, to shun his example in this regard."
  Mr. Hall: I am very pleased that I have drawn my hon. Friend into that quotation. I am glad that he made no charge of drunkenness against the people of the Gold Coast. When one discusses this question of the importation of liquor, the general public are inclined to think that there is a good deal of drunkenness or debauchery among the natives of West Africa. My hon. Friend has rightly said that there is no truth in that. When commenting on the recommendation of the local commission of inquiry regarding the consumption of spirits in the Gold Coast—which was referred to by my hon. Friend—the then Secretary of State, Lord Passfield, said that he felt greatly impressed by the diversity of views recorded by the various witnesses, more particularly as to the prevalence of drunkenness. It seems to be generally agreed that the natives of the Gold Coast are not
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  drunkards, although on occasions which were described by my hon. Friend they are liable to drink spirits to excess. Lord Passfield called special attention to the evidence of some of the witnesses, especially Mr. McKay, a member on the Gold Coast Bar and of the Legislative Council. Mr. McKay said:
  "I have always been strongly impressed with the general sobriety of the people of this country. There are occasions no doubt, when a considerable quantity of alcohol is consumed, but at those celebrations which I have attended I have not seen the wild orgies which are alleged to take place at them. There was much noise and excitement, which is natural to the people, and which might be mistaken for drunkenness."
  The commission themselves said:
  "The general impression of the witnesses is that the people of this Colony are temperate, that there is very little drunkenness, and that the situation is better in this respect than before the war."
  That means, before 1914. If the evidence of these witnesses is to be trusted, a good deal of the agitation about the bad effect of the consumption of spirits loses its force. But one should point out that, as I have already mentioned, at these funeral Customs and other ceremonial occasions, a good deal of spirit has been drunk. It is difficult for the Government to deal with many of these native Customs. Ceremonial drinking includes libation, which, to many people, is worse than drinking, because instead of being drunk, the spirit is poured on the ground. The funeral Customs are a deep-rooted tradition on the Gold Coast, which appears to go back before ale importation of any spirit at all, when palm wine and other native drinks were used for the purpose. The idea seems to be the payment of honour to the dead.
  Mr. Tinker: It would be very difficult for people to do that in this country at the present time.
  Mr. Hall: I have never seen drink purposely poured on the ground in this country for any purpose at all. The basis of the speech of my hon. Friend deals with conditions which existed before 1930. I hope to show that there has been a considerable improvement since that date. I agree with my hon. Friend that in 1926–27 a good deal of spirits was drunk. The major portion of the spirits imported or drunk then consisted of gin. A Committee was appointed in 1928, and that

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  Committee went fully into these customs, and made very strong recommendations as to how much of this excessive drinking at these customs could be reduced. They recommended an amendment of the Liquor Licence (Spirits) Ordinance, and this amendment came into effect in 1929. Until 1929, the licensing law of the Gold Coast was substantially the same as when the spirit licences were first introduced, except for the increase made from time to time in the rates of duties paid for licences. Clauses inserted in the amending Ordinance provided for the publication of applications for the issue of new licences and for the lodging of objections thereto. The further amendments which came into force on 1st January, 1929, were of a more drastic nature. The duty payable for the ordinary retail licence to sell spirits, which had hitherto been £40 per annum in towns to which the Town Councils Ordinance extended and £20 elsewhere, was in both cases substantially increased, and the hours of sale were reduced from 15 to eight per day, and confined to hours between 10 a.m. and 6 p.m. As my hon. Friend knows, from reading the report of the Commission, the drink obtained for these ceremonials was obtained very largely by indebtedness. On the death of a member of a family, the family came together and decided how much money was to be spent on the celebration. Each member of the family pledged himself to regard it as a debt of the family, the debt being divided between the members. In almost every case, the drink was obtained on credit.
  Mr. George Griffiths: Was the deceased insured?
  Mr. Hall: That I cannot say. Anyhow, that did not account for the celebration at his passing. The right of obtaining drink on credit was abolished as a result of this Ordinance, and in one year, from 1929 to 1930, the number of licences was reduced from 3,245 to 1,547, a reduction almost entirely as the result of the legislation based upon the recommendation of the Newlands Committee. There was a reduction of 52 per cent. in the number of licences issued. It is interesting to note the reduction in the importation of spirits, including gin, into the Gold Coast. My hon. Friend rightly said that in 1927 the total imports of spirit was 1,312,000 gallons, which included 1,181,000 gallons of gin. In 1928 the import of spirit
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  was 1,185,000 gallons, and there again the amount of gin was well over 1,000,000 gallons. Compare the change as a result of the improvement of the new Ordinance. In 1929 the import of spirits was reduced to 736,000 gallons and we could see the downward trend in imports of gin.
  I do not want to weary the House with too many figures but it is very interesting to note that, from 1929 to 1936, the total import of spirits is down to 181,000 gallons. The percentage of gin at that time was 64.2. In 1938 the total import of all spirits amounted to 107,000 gallons, whereas the importation of gin was 49,000 gallons, or 46 per cent. of the total import. In 1939, the total import of spirit was 81,000 gallons and the total import of gin 22,000 gallons, or 27 per cent. In 1940, which are the latest figures, the total import of spirits was down to 45,000 gallons and the import of gin to 7,900 gallons, or 17.3 per cent. of the total import of spirits. From 1929, taking no account of the very bad years referred to by my hon. Friend of 1926–27, when the importation of spirits was up to 1,300,000 gallons, the proportion of gin to the total import of spirit had been reduced from 77.3 per cent. to 17.3 per cent. so that it cannot be said that there has not been any improvement as a result of the agitation which took place from 1927 to 1930.
  My hon. Friend referred to a change of policy which had taken place as compared with 1930. It is true that there was a good deal of agitation against the importation of Geneva and not so much against the importation of, gin. As my hon. Friend rightly said, "geneva" is a term to denote gin manufactured in a pot still, and gin is manufactured in a patent still. What the difference in taste really is, I am not competent to judge, but it is very evident that the complaint and the cause of the difficulty prior to 1930 in the Gold Coast was the question of geneva. There was an agitation for a complete prohibition of geneva. The then Secretary of State said he could not distinguish as between geneva and gin, but there was a very strong recommendation from the Gold Coast by the Governor and by members of the Legislative Council that there should be a prohibition of the importation of gin and geneva by a reduction of 10 per cent. each year for 10 years, completely prohibiting the importation of gin and geneva by 1940–41.

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  It is surprising how those who advocated the total prohibition of gin and geneva in 10 years changed when they saw that there was the possibility of its prohibition coming into operation. My hon. Friend referred to Sir Ofori Atta, who was the leading protagonist in connection with the prohibition of the importation of geneva and who, as a result of his efforts, certainly stirred up a good deal of feeling in respect of this matter. But, in 1935 the Governor expressed his opinion that the policy embodied in the 1931 Ordinance should be reconsidered in a year's time. He himself sent questionnaires which were submitted to native councils, and as a result of these, it was disclosed that a large majority of the State Councils favoured the repeal of the Ordinance. One of the paramount chiefs, the one to whom I have already referred, himself supported a motion for a further investigation into liquor restriction. He with other provincial members of the Legislative Council and members of the Executive Council were fully consulted prior to the enactment of the new Ordinance in 1939, and, with one exception, favoured the continued importation of gin, and that one exception was a member who objected because he wanted legalisation of what is now illicit distillation. Not only the Legislative Council and the chiefs, but the Press of the Gold Coast, who are usually very vocal in voicing opposition to any legislation which the Government may enact if they feel that it is against the wishes and desires of the people of the Colony, in fact every newspaper in the Gold Coast, supported the change which was brought about as a result of this new Ordinance.
  The present position is that the new Ordinance provides for the fixing of a quota by the Governor to be approved by the Secretary of State for a period of three years, and at the end of three years the whole question will be the subject of further review. As far as we can see as a result of the legislation based upon the recommendation of the New-lands Committee, there is a substantial reduction in the importation and in the consumption of liquor. This is so much
  1248
  so, that we are inclined to think that it is very much better to bring about the reduction in the consumption of liquor in the way that is being done in the Gold Coast at the present time, and that is, by an improvement in education. The inconsistency of the case of my hon. Friend is that he wants to prohibit the importation of gin only; he is prepared to allow all other spirits to be imported.
  Mr. Barr: No.
  Mr. Hall: Well, the case which was submitted not only to my Noble Friend but to his predecessor, the late Lord Lloyd, was based entirely on what was regarded as a change of policy in relation to this question of gin. No suggestion has been made that there should be a total prohibition of spirits, even into the Gold Coast, and as far as other West African colonies are concerned, no suggestion has been made that the supply of gin should be interfered with in any way whatsoever.
  Mr. Barr: I apologise for interrupting a second time, but the difficulty at home and abroad is that the white man insists upon having his liquor and, therefore, it becomes impossible, or a matter of great difficulty, in India or Africa to prohibit gin to the native while the white man insists that whisky, brandy and other drinks should go into these countries. It was not for lack of will but for lack of power that I did not ask for the prohibition of these liquors also.
  Mr. Hall: I can assure my hon. Friend that if he studies the figures I have put before the House he will see that the percentage of gin imported into the Gold Coast has dropped from 77 per cent. to 17 per cent. I do not think the distribution of 70,000 gallons of gin among the total population of the Gold Coast will give rise to very much insobriety among those people. However, I want to assure him again that this matter will be reviewed at the end of the next three years, when the term of the Ordinance comes to its conclusion.
  Question, "That this House do now adjourn" put, and agreed to.