Commons Sitting of 24 October 1940

Preamble
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.]
NEW WRIT.
For the Queen's University of Belfast, in the room of Colonel Thomas Sinclair, C.B. (Chiltern Hundreds).—[Captain Margesson.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  STATUTORY COMMITTEES (REMUNERATION).
  Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider increasing the scales of remuneration for members of statutory committees in view of the rise in the cost of living and subsequent wage increases; and, further, is he aware of the loss in wages to men serving on those committees?
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Bevin): In general no remuneration is payable to members of these committees. The amount of compensation for loss of earnings owing to attendance, which may be claimed in certain cases, was increased from 1st September to a maximum of 17s. 6d. from a previous maximum of 14s.

  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT.
  Mr. Thurtleasked the Minister of Labour whether, in cases where married women with children have left employment in vulnerable areas, such as London, in order to seek safer areas, he will see that their eligibility to unemployment benefit is not contested on the ground that they have voluntarily left their employment?
  Mr. Bevin: In general, such claims to benefit are not contested on the ground that the applicants have voluntarily left employment without just cause. In some cases the circumstances may be such that the insurance officer is unable himself to allow benefit; in that event he refers the claim to a court of referees for decision.
  Mr. Thurtle: If I bring to the notice of the right hon. Gentleman a specific case where this ground has been used for refusing benefit, will he have it looked into?
  Mr. Bevin: Certainly, Sir.

  NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

    BRITISH SUBJECTS OF MIXED PARENTAGE.
    Mr. Mainwaringasked the Minister of Labour whether the colour bar, which now operates as a distinction against certain British subjects of mixed parentage, born and resident in this country, in their search for work at Government factories, is being used with his knowledge and consent; and will he take steps to see to it that all citizens without distinction of colour enjoy equal rights in this respect?
    Mr. Bevin: I am not aware that such a distinction operates. Certain cases relating to a Royal Ordnance Factory were brought to my notice by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Cove), but I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Supply that they were due to a local misunderstanding which has now been corrected.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into a case where I have had official acknowledgment from an Employment Exchange that this, in fact, operates?
    Mr. Bevin: I shall be very glad to do so if the hon. Member will send me a copy.

    MUNITION FACTORIES (OVERTIME).
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Minister of Labour whether he is satisfied with the proportion of workers who are now working overtime upon the day shift in munition factories?
    Mr. Bevin: I do not clearly understand what precise point my hon. Friend has in mind. Perhaps he will be good enough to see me on the matter.
    Mr. Simmonds: Is this question really causing the right hon. Gentleman concern, and is he taking action about it?
    Mr. Bevin: A good many questions cause me concern, but I think it is very inadvisable to assist our enemies by letting them know what difficulties we have to face.

    ARMED FORCES PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the investigation into the household means test in connection with the unemployed, he will immediately institute an inquiry into the present system of granting pensions to dependants of men killed in the war, with a view to withdrawing the present test of pecuniary and financial need before a pension can be granted?
    The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): The present system of granting pensions to the dependants of men killed in the war, contained in the Royal Warrant of 1940, was accepted by the Government following the recommendations of my Statutory Advisory Committee who gave the subject exhaustive consideration. I see no grounds for any modification of the system.
    Miss Ward: In view of the fact that the household means test has been accepted by the Government and passed by Parliament, may I ask whether the request of a Conservative may receive some consideration? I beg to give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware of the hardship endured by those with pre-Great War disability pensions owing to the decline in the real value of their pensions; and whether he will consider taking steps to place all war pensioners on a similar scale?
    Sir W. Womersley: A Royal Warrant of 1st November, 1920, made provision for increasing pensions for disablement due to war service prior to 4th August, 1914, to the Great War Warrant rates appropriate to the degree of disablement found. The latter rates were based on the cost of living figure obtaining in 1919 which is considerably in excess of that obtaining to-day. The hon. Member will therefore appreciate that there is at present no justification for a further increase.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does the Minister agree that it would be advisable at some early date to consolidate the scales of pensioners of the present, past, and pre-1914 wars?
    Sir W. Womersley: That is a matter that I have always under consideration.
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Minister of Pensions the position with regard to pensions for the dependants of men in the Services who, through accident or otherwise, are shot dead by sentries on duty?
    Sir W. Womersley: It is not possible to give a categorical answer. Some such cases have been accepted, but the question whether the death of a serving soldier who is shot by a sentry can be regarded as attributable to Service must be determined in the light of all the circumstances of the case. If the hon. Member has a particular case in view and wishes to communicate with me on it, I shall be glad to consider it.
    Mr. Dunnasked the Minister of Pensions why numbers of soldiers' wives and families, in receipt of allowances from the War Grants Advisory Committee, have been instructed to send in their pay-books and that grants made have been withdrawn; whether any change in policy has been adopted in consequence of the increase in pay to serving soldiers, and will he indicate what the changes are?
    Sir W. Womersley: Instructions have been given that the recent increase of pay granted to serving soldiers is always to be disregarded in assessing war service grants. There are, however, frequent changes in other directions in the financial circumstances of families; and in so far as these diminish or remove the hardship on which a grant was based the grant must necessarily be adjusted.

  CIVIL DEFENCE.

    INTERNEES.
    Mr. Graham Whiteasked the Minister of Labour whether he will consider the advisability of making application for the release from internment, subject to security conditions, of distinguished engineers and scientists qualified to render national service to the common cause at the present time, in the fields covered by the Ministries of Aircraft Production and Supply?
    Mr. Bevin: The International Labour Branch of my Department already maintains close contact with the Home Office in this matter.
    Mr. White: Do they, in fact, apply for people to be released if they need their services?
    Mr. Bevin: No, Sir. I have previously explained that I do not propose to interfere with the obligations and duties of the Home Office on questions of security; but there is close collaboration between us in dealing with the problem.
    Mr. Manderasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why Mr. F. G. Friedlander has been deported to and interned in Canada, as Mr. Friedlander was educated at an English public school, was a senior scholar at his college, took his B.A. degree in 1939 in mechanical sciences, has done distinguished work in mathematics, some of which is being published by the Royal Society, has just been elected a Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge; and, as there is urgent need for people with his qualifications, whether he will make arrangements for him to return to this country at the earliest possible moment?
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Herbert Morrison): A communication has already been sent to Canada saying that it has been decided to release Mr. Friedlander and asking that arrangements may be made for his return to this country at the earliest opportunity if he so desires.
    Mr. Mander: Can my right hon. Friend say whether any disciplinary action has been taken against the person or persons responsible for these extraordinary cases of people being sent overseas by mistake? Are they to be disciplined or not?
    Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, I cannot say. As the hon. Member will appreciate, this is a matter which is not wholly concerned with one Department.
    Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary what arrangements are made for aliens who are released from internment on account of old age and illness and who are destitute; and in what way and through what funds they would be maintained?
    Mr. Morrison: Before persons are released on account of age or illness, inquiries are made as to the arrangements available for their care and treatment. As regards the maintenance of those who are destitute, the position of those who are released from internment does not differ
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    from that of those who have not been interned. As my hon. Friend knows, there are arrangements for assisting such people made by voluntary organisations which have been assisted since the outbreak of war by Government grants.
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Home Secretary why women internees in the Isle of Man camps are allowed to receive less pocket-money than the men?
    Mr. Morrison: In the male camps internees are not allowed to be in possession of any money, but may draw on the amounts standing to their credit within certain limits, which at present vary in different camps, for the purpose of making purchases at the camp canteen. In the Rushen camp, where the women internees though confined to the district are not segregated from the local inhabitants and are free to spend money in the local shops, they are allowed only 5s. in cash a week, but, in addition, they may purchase goods approved by a responsible camp officer up to the amount available in their camp accounts. The weekly cash limit has been imposed for security reasons.
    Mr. Strauss: Is it not a fact that in the Isle of Man men's camps men are allowed to draw up to 10s., whereas, in the women's camps, women are allowed to draw only up to 5s.?
    Mr. Morrison: The circumstances are different in the cases of men and women.

    DETENTIONS.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Home Secretary how many of the 1,000 persons detained under Section 18B who had not had their cases heard by the advisory committee by 3rd October, had been detained at that date for more than three months?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I cannot give my hon. Friend the precise information for which he asks without putting the several advisory committees to a good deal of trouble and causing delay which in present circumstances I am reluctant to impose upon them, but I am informed that there are now approximately 400 persons who have been detained for more than three months and whose cases are awaiting hearing by the committees.
    Mr. Stokesasked the Home Secretary how soon the 1,000 persons detained under Section 18B who had not

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    had their cases heard by 3rd October will appear before the advisory committee; and whether he will consider allowing some of them out on parole, given suitable guarantees meanwhile?
    Mr. Morrison: As regards the first part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to a Question by the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) on 17th October. I regret that I cannot see my way to adopt the suggestion in the second part of the Question.
    Mr. Stokes: From the rate at which these investigations are now being held, how soon does the right hon. Gentleman expect these 400 persons to have their cases heard?
    Mr. Morrison: I cannot say. The administration is working, in this respect, much more rapidly, and I hope there will be no undue delay.
    Mr. Wedgwood: How many of the thousands of Fascists have now been released?
    Mr. Morrison: I could not say without notice.
    Sir Richard Aclandasked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement about Philip Paneth, a Czech subject, in Walton prison, Liverpool, stating for what reason he is imprisoned; whether Czech governmental authorities have asked for his release; and whether there is any prospect of his being released?
    Mr. Morrison: This gentleman is detained in pursuance of Article 12 (5A) of the Aliens Order. The necessary inquiries are not yet completed, but I will communicate my decision to my hon. Friend as soon as possible.

    AIR-RAID WARDENS.
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the air-raid warden service is now an efficient and disciplined body and that the head wardens have discharged responsible duties with great credit, but that great dissatisfaction exists; that this responsibiliy is not recognised by a special grade of pay as is the case in the fire and first-aid services; and whether he can arrange for satisfaction of this claim?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the hon. Member for West Lewisham (Mr. Brooke) yesterday.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter again, because there is great dissatisfaction existing in this very important service and it should not be treated in a different way from other services? These people accept great responsibility in the case of serious damage and ought to be remunerated on the same scale as other services.
    Mr. Morrison: I will look into the matter.
    Mr. J. P. Morrisasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the deficiency of steel helmets, civilian duty respirators, haversacks, protective clothing and gum-boots in an air-raid precautions division of which he has been informed which is causing dissatisfaction and resentment among the wardens; and will he take steps to see that this air-raid precautions equipment is issued at once?
    Mr. Morrison: I have made inquiries about the supply of equipment in the area to which the hon. Member refers. The full authorised issue of equipment has been made to the borough of which it forms part: but since the recruitment of part-time wardens exceeds the authorised establishment it is not possible to make an individual issue to the whole of the personnel, though the shortage in this particular area is not great. Further supplies of equipment will be made as soon as they are available.

    AIR-RAID DAMAGE.
    Mr. Woodburnasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that there is considerable unemployment among skilled building trade workers; and whether he is prepared to harness this unused skill and labour to the work of demolition, clearance and, where possible, reconstruction of damaged buildings?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and National Service that there is no appreciable unemployment amongst skilled building trade workers other than that occasioned by transfer from one job to another or by the immobility or unsuitability of some workers on account of advancing years or infirmity. The Register is being systematically scrutinised

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    with a view to obtaining suitable labour for the works in hand, including those of the type mentioned in the Question. In the London Region the Minister has found it necessary to call for volunteers for debris clearance work from among physically fit men not previously employed in the building trade.
    Mr. Woodburn: Will that inquiry be confined solely to London, or have the Provinces also been taken into account with a view to bringing men from them, if necessary, to do this work?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, I understand from the Minister of Labour that it will be on a national basis.
    Colonel Arthur Evansasked the Home Secretary whether it is his intention to require the War Office to place at his disposal a sufficient number of Pioneer troops to deal with rescue, clearance and demolition work in London; and if he will make a general statement on the position?
    Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the satisfaction given to the citizens of the City of London of the help given by the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps in clearing up bomb débris and in rescuing buried persons; and whether he will consult with the War Office to have the number of troops available increased rather than decreased or withdrawn?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. I am most grateful to the military authorities for the timely assistance they have been able to afford in helping to meet the urgent problem of dealing with air-raid damage in the London region. The aim of the Department is to mobilise a sufficient body of civilian labour to keep pace with any damage that may be caused; but, in order to deal with arrears which have accumulated in the meantime, such assistance as can be afforded by the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps is most welcome. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friends that I shall be glad to take full advantage of such assistance as the Army authorities are in a position to render without prejudice to the primary role of the Army.
    Mr. Thorne: Are the men engaged upon this very arduous work receiving extra pay?
    Mr. Morrison: That is a matter for the Secretary of State for War.
    Mr. Thorne: They ought to get something. They work jolly hard.
    Mr. Morrison: It is a matter for the Army.
    Mr. Wedgwood: May I ask why the Army as well as the A.M.P.C. are not helping in the London streets? Is there any difficulty in getting the Army to come?
    Mr. Morrison: I am assured that the military authorities have been most helpful in co-operating.
    Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour to increase the numbers of those employed upon this work, so as to remove the depressing effect which the sight of these masses of masonry has upon people going to work?
    Mr. Morrison: If necessary, a request will be made for further assistance, but we are acting on the principle that, so far as civilian labour is available, it is desirable to use it, not only in the interests of civilian labour, but in the interests of the military defence of the country. If the civilian labour available proves to be insufficient, we shall not hesitate to ask the military authorities to help us with additional men, but we must remember that the Army has its military functions to discharge and that they are not unimportant at this time. One must always keep in mind the fact that, unsightly as débris is, there are many other things to do in the way of repairs to street damage—gas mains, water mains—and to people's homes. That is even more urgent that the clearing-up of débris.
    Mr. Loftus: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider using for these urgent matters some of the Royal Engineers, in order to assist in the rapid reorganisation of London?
    Mr. Morrison: That is within our minds for consideration, but the Ministry of Labour is naturally anxious that we should do all we can with civilian labour. There is no point of principle in it so far as we are concerned, and military help will be used as far as is necessary.
    Mr. De la Bère: Is not this work essentially Pioneer work, and is not the present position due to unfinished thinking by the War Office? Why is the delay allowed to go on? Why does not the War Office wake up?

    HOTEL VISITORS (IDENTITY CARDS).
    Sir Reginald Blairasked the Home Secretary whether he will consider making a regulation requiring visitors arriving at hotels and signing hotel registration forms as British subjects to produce their registration identity cards, failure to comply being reported to the police?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I am considering my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does my right hon. Friend recognise that although a certain amount of inspection is necessary, it should be kept at a minimum and not pressed unduly?
    Mr. Morrison: My hon. Friend can rely upon me to keep a sense of proportion in all directions.
    Sir John Mellor: Does my right hon. Friend think that civilian identity cards, in their present form, are of any serious use?
    Mr. Morrison: I am afraid that I, personally, have never been tried out.

    AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS SERVICES.
    Mr. Arthur Hollinsasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that members of the air-raid precautions, wounded in carrying out their duties, have their wages reduced after a limited number of weeks; and whether he will take steps to remedy this injustice?
    Mr. H. Morrison: This matter is engaging my active consideration.
    Mr. Hollins: Does not my right hon. Friend realise that these men are now in the front line, the only difference being that they are engaged in saving life instead of taking it, and that their dependants should not be penalised for that reason?
    Mr. Morrison: I fully realise that, and, as I have said, the matter is under active consideration.
    Mr. Thurtle: Would my right hon. Friend say that it will have not only active consideration, but sympathetic consideration, in view of the fact that these men have a real grievance?
    Mr. Morrison: I do not think I can go any further than I have gone, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that this is a matter about which I should not be unsympathetic.
    Sir Percy Harris: Does my right hon. Friend realise that it very much adds to the anxiety of these men, who are employed on dangerous and risky work which at any moment may end their lives, to know that if they are injured there is no adequate provision made for them and their families?
    Mr. Morrison: That is one of the aspects which is being considered.
    Sir Malcolm Robertson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are men who have nothing more than 25s. a week, out of which they have to pay 16s. for rent and 4s. 10d. for insurance, leaving them 4s. 2d. on which to live? I know of such a case which is causing extreme dissatisfaction among A.R.P. workers.
    Mr. Morrison: I will take that into account. If the hon. Member will let me have particulars, I will see that they are considered.
    Mr. Edmund Harveyasked the Home Secretary whether arrangements will be taken in hand for the provision of rest billets and transport to them for the benefit of air-raid precautions workers in the Metropolitan area?
    Mr. Simmondsasked the Home Secretary whether he will arrange for widespread opportunity for Civil Defence workers in the Home Counties to exchange duties for a period with those in London?
    Mr. Morrison: The proposal that London Civil Defence workers should exchange duties with workers from other areas is undoubtedly attractive, and interchanges have been made in certain services on a small scale. I am having the matter examined in all its aspects, including the relative problems of transport and billeting of personnel, and at the moment it would be premature for me to attempt to make any definite statement.
    Mr. Harvey: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the letter in the "Times" from Lord Horder on the vital importance of providing intervals in rest billets for these workers?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Simmonds: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is an overwhelming desire on the part of workers in the Home Counties to relieve the London workers, and will he see that any administrative difficulties are removed as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Morrison: No, Sir; I will not. Administrative difficulties have to be faced; they have to be recognised. In so far as they are removable I will remove them, but in so far as they cannot be removed I cannot. I am perfectly sympathetic to the proposal. Obviously it is one to which one should be sympathetic, and I will do everything I can, but it must be remembered, taking the wardens' service, for example, that we cannot go in for a wholesale transfer of personnel, because it is necessary that wardens should know intimately the districts in which they are working.
    Mr. Simmonds: With deference to my right hon. Friend, this matter has been under consideration for rather a long time, and while we are grateful for his promise to do what he can, will he see that there is no delay?

    PUBLIC SHELTERS.
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Home Secretary whether he has any estimate of the approximate accommodation available in suitable basement and other underground shelter for those sheltering from air raids; whether he has, or will, secure information for that purpose from all authorities in London and the Home Counties; and whether he is securing that certain of those shelters shall be adapted for use as maternity or general hospital purposes?
    Mr. H. Morrison: Regular returns as to the progress of shelter provision are received by the Regional Commissioners, but I do not think it would be in the public interest to give details of the extent to which various categories referred to by my hon. Friend are available. As regards the last part of the Question, arrangements are being made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health whereby a sick bay will be provided in the largest shelters, and a doctor will be on call when required.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that there are some
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    areas in and around London where basement shelters are used by day but not by night, and that there is a considerable demand for such shelter, and will he induce local authorities to secure such shelter as is available?
    Mr. Morrison: I have already taken such action.
    Mr. Whiteasked the Home Secretary whether all public shelters, underground stations and rest centres are provided with first-aid personnel and equipment?
    Mr. Morrison: Arrangements have been, or are being, made in collaboration with the local authorities concerned, for the provision of first-aid personnel and equipment at all rest centres, and at the larger air-raid shelters, including underground stations used as shelters.
    Major Milnerasked the Home Secretary whether any detailed and complete survey has been made of available but wholly or partly unoccupied shelter accommodation in the London area; and whether such survey will be made periodically so as to ensure full use being made of such accommodation and the avoidance of overcrowding in other shelters?
    Mr. Morrison: Surveys of shelter accommodation are going on continuously under the guidance of the regional technical staffs in order to ensure the fullest exploitation of shelter possibilities; and one particular object is that which I think my hon. and gallant Friend has in mind, namely, to ensure that shelter in areas where it exists to excess is used to alleviate deficiencies elsewhere; this is receiving special attention.
    Major Milner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that although I have been drawing attention to this matter for some weeks, there is still a great number of excellent shelters in the West End which are almost wholly unused, and that, notwithstanding the various promises by his predecessor, no real direction or guidance or, it may be in some cases, compulsion, is being exercised to make use of this splendid accommodation. Will he look into the matter?
    Mr. Morrison: That is precisely what I have been doing ever since I have been at the Home Office.
    Mr. Simmonds: Could my right hon. Friend assure the House that although it may be essential to have extra accommodation, there will not be added to the list of shelters illusory shelters where the safety factor is very low and they do not come up to standard?
    Mr. Morrison: That is an important aspect of the matter which we are keeping in mind. It is the case that sometimes we think a building is good, but on technical examination it may not be so. I can assure the House that my purpose is to get all the reasonably good shelters that I can lay my hands on.
    Major Milner: Will my right hon. Friend do me the honour of accompanying me for half an hour on some night during a raid, when I can point out to him the shelters that I mean?
    Mr. Morrison: I shall want notice of that Question.
    Mr. Sorensen: May I ask whether any particular instructions have been issued to local authorities in view of the fact that some of these basement shelters in the Outer London area may not be safe at all?
    Mr. Morrison: A special survey is being made in that connection, and there is co-operation between the local authorities and the Regional Commissioners. May I say this to the House, that it really is undesirable to run a policy, either by campaign or otherwise, which tends to draw people away from satisfactory domestic shelter to these large shelters, and I am a little apprehensive about the tendency of certain efforts in that direction.
    Mr. Kenneth Lindsayasked the Home Secretary what measures are being taken to reduce the damp conditions in trench shelters?
    Mr. Morrison: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 15th instant to the hon. Member for the Duddeston Division (Mr. Simmonds).
    Mr. Lindsay: While I realise the difficulties, does my right hon. Friend know that women are pumping out or brushing away water in shelters where children are sleeping this week, and will he, under the ticket system, ensure that no children are allowed to sleep in these shelters, but are given priority in shelters which are completely free from damp?
    Mr. Morrison: I can assure the hon. Member that I am doing my very best in this very difficult matter.
    Mr. Simmonds: When the right hon. Gentleman replied to the Question to which he referred, is it not a fact that he referred to trenches coming within the code, but there is a very large number which are without the code in which there is excessive dampness? Can anything be done there?
    Mr. Morrison: If anything can be done, I will do it. As the hon. Member will appreciate, it is a matter of some difficulty, but it is being promptly and sympathetically considered.
    Mr. Lindsayasked the Home Secretary on what basis he proposes to operate the ticket system for shelters?
    Mr. Morrison: This is a question which has arisen particularly in London, and I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of a circular which has been issued by the Regional Commissioner to local authorities in the Metropolis.
    Mr. G. Strauss: Could my right hon. Friend make it available to other London Members?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, certainly.
    Mr. Sorensen: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that people from other districts go to attractive shelters in particular areas, and in view of that fact, will he not confine these tickets to persons living in the particular area?
    Mr. Morrison: What we have done is to leave a fair measure of elasticity to the local authorities. That question will arise undoubtedly—and some other very difficult questions. On the whole, we thought it best to make the thing somewhat experimental, and to leave a large measure of discretion to the local authorities. If hon. Members know of suitable shelter, we shall always be glad to consider it and examine it.
    Mr. Whiteasked the Home Secretary whether he has set up or proposes to institute a regular and frequent inspection of public shelters and Underground stations?
    Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir. The medical officers of health of the Metropolitan boroughs were requested in September

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    last to arrange for the regular visiting of public air-raid shelters. The visiting of such shelters, including Underground stations used as shelters, by medical officers of the Ministry of Health has also been in progress, and is being further developed and systematised.
    Sir T. Moore: Will this service be available during air raids?
    Mr. Morrison: I have already answered the Question about medical service during air raids.
    Mr. Lindsayasked the Home Secretary how many additional doctors have been provided to supervise health conditions in shelters in the Greater London area?
    Mr. Morrison: Medical officers of health of the Metropolitan boroughs are fully co-operating in the inspection of air-raid shelters with the medical officers of the Ministry of Health specially assigned for this purpose. Arrangements for the employment of additional doctors are not yet complete, and I am not at present in a position to give the information desired by the hon. Member.
    Mr. Lindsay: As this Question has been transferred from the Minister of Health, may I take it that the right hon. Gentleman is now responsible for the conditions in shelters? Does he not consider it desirable that doctors with executive powers should deal with these matters rather than doctors who just go round and inspect? There are many doctors in first-aid posts and in a large number of shelters; in order to spread the matter out, could we not have doctors with executive powers on the spot?
    Mr. Morrison: I have already informed the House that we are seeking to make arrangements whereby doctors will be available. I will consider the other aspect of the hon. Gentleman's Question. Co-operation between the Ministry of Home Security and the Ministry of Health is running excellently, but the actual line of demarcation of responsibility for Questions is not yet quite settled.

    PRISONERS (PROTECTION).
    Sir R. Aclandasked the Home Secretary whether it is being found possible to do anything to increase the safety of inhabitants of His Majesty's prisons during air raids?
    Mr. H. Morrison: As I intimated in reply to a Question by the hon. and learned Member for North Hammersmith (Mr. Pritt) on 17th instant, prison buildings of the cellular type are in themselves exceptionally strong and appear to afford a high degree of protection against blast and against fire risk. To attempt to move large numbers of prisoners from their cells to other accommodation during an air raid, more particularly at night, might well expose them to additional risk; and the provision and use of special shelters has therefore been limited to particular establishments where individual buildings are below the normal standard of constructional strength.
    Sir R. Acland: Will the Minister bear in mind that some prisoners have, I think, been killed? They were in the top storeys of a prison. To be kept in solitary confinement on the upper floors of a building during an air attack is a form of punishment that was not intended. Will he see whether there can be some revision of the sentences passed upon prisoners who have to put up with this acute form of punishment?
    Mr. Morrison: I resent the suggestion that this is an additional form of punishment. We are doing our best for prisoners, but the hon. Member must realise that there are other people than prisoners who have to take these risks.
    Sir R. Acland: I did not want to suggest that anybody is doing this on purpose. It is happening, through nobody's fault.

    EVACUATION (AGED AND INFIRM).
    Mr. G. Straussasked the Minister of Health whether he will make arrangements to evacuate the old and infirm who are occupying beds in the London hospitals?
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): My officers have been in touch with those of the London County Council on this matter for some time, and although the difficulty of finding alternative accommodation without prejudicing the interests of the acute sick and of casualties is very great, I have already arranged to move some of the aged and infirm from London hospitals, and hope to arrange to move a large number more very shortly.

    FIRE SERVICES (INJURIES).
    Sir J. Lucasasked the Home Secretary whether, under the new merger scheme of the London Fire Brigade and the Auxiliary Fire Service, a regular fireman and an auxiliary, injured on duty, will now both be treated on the same scale, or whether the auxiliary fireman will still have to apply to the public assistance authorities after the first fortnight; and whether he is aware of the feeling of grievance at the latter arrangement?
    Mr. H. Morrison: The scheme in question provides for a new basis of payment of full-time Auxiliary Fire Service officers. These officers, in common with other members of the Auxiliary Fire Service, will remain eligible for the grant of injury allowances and pensions provided for in the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme. As regards the suggestion that auxiliary firemen will have to apply to the public assistance authorities, I should like to make it clear that there is no question of any auxiliary fireman having to apply for public assistance. Under the Personal Injuries (Civilians) Scheme, application is made for temporary injury allowances, covering incapacity for work following an injury, to a local office of the Assistance Board, who, in this matter, act as agents of the Ministry of Pensions.
    Sir J. Lucas: As the regular soldier and the militiaman get paid exactly the same if they are wounded in action, why should the regular fireman and the auxiliary fireman on the same job be differently treated? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that this position arouses very strong feeling?
    Mr. Morrison: The position is not unrelated to the fact that regular firemen are under superannuation schemes. I do not think it would be fair to Civil Defence services generally that auxiliary firemen should be treated on a basis different from that of other Civil Defence workers. The House is equally proud of them all, and they all deserve the same consideration.

    SUFFERERS FROM ENEMY ACTION (ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE).
    Miss Wardasked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the desirability of establishing a trained service, recruited locally in each region, to man
    1136
    information centres to which persons suffering from the results of enemy action may receive expert advice without having to go from place to place?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: Instructions have been issued that there should be at every rest centre an officer responsible for advising homeless people on the various forms of assistance available to them. In London, this arrangement is complete, and a similar arrangement is already operating in many of the centres in other regions. In addition, there is in every large centre of population a citizen's advice bureau from which similar information can be obtained.
    Miss Ward: Is this a paid service of trained workers, and, in areas which have not yet been bombed, is an arrangement for persons to be available already made, or will the areas have to wait until bombing takes place before they can call upon the personnel?
    Mr. MacDonald: Instructions have been given that preparations should be made now, and I trust that those instructions are being carried out, in all the large centres of population. In regard to the first part of the Question, in some places the work is done by a paid officer, and in others by a qualified person who prefers to remain a voluntary worker.
    Miss Ward: From what source are the workers drawn? Can the right hon. Gentleman say that arrangements have now been made, because in one Northern town the other day no arrangements whatsoever had been made?
    Mr. MacDonald: If the hon. Lady will confirm the impression which I have formed as to which is the Northern town, I will make specific inquiries. With regard to the first part of the Question, the personnel is drawn from different sources. In some cases, for instance, it is a school teacher, in another case a public assistance officer and in still other cases, as I have said, voluntary workers.
    Mr. Mainwaringasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps should be taken by persons concerned to take advantage of the Government's policy, broadcast on Saturday, 12th October, by the British Broadcasting Corporation, that all persons having suffered from enemy action and in urgent need of

    1137
    clothes, etc., but without the means to obtain them, can obtain assistance by application to the nearest Assistance Board office?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): Any person in need of assistance should at once apply to the nearest Assistance Board office.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Are we to understand from that reply that any person in this country in urgent need of a change of clothing, or it may be without a change even of first-hand clothing, can obtain clothing or money to supply himself with clothing by immediate application to an Assistance Board office?
    Captain Crookshank: Within limits, which have already been explained to the House.
    Mr. Mainwaring: But this is a policy which has been annunciated by the British Broadcasting Corporation—presumably an official declaration by the Government. Are we now to understand that the Government accept fully the responsibility for the statement made on behalf of the British Broadcasting Corporation?
    Captain Crookshank: I think my right hon. Friend has explained to this House what the position is. There is, of course, an income limit above which it is not possible to get grants, but below those limits there is no difficulty at all.
    Mr. Mainwaring: But the point is this—
    Mr. Speaker rose—
    Mr. Mainwaring: On a point of Order. This is a case where, presumably, the Government's policy has been annunciated. It is profoundly misleading to large numbers of people in this country, and it is doing a very grave injustice and imposing undue hardships and cruelty upon these people.

    WOMEN POLICE.
    Miss Wardasked the Home Secretary what response he has received from local authorities to the circular addressed to them on the subject of women police; and whether he is satisfied that they are in fact considering the question irrespective of their previous opinions and are
    1138
    in consultation with the appropriate military authorities?
    Mr. H. Morrison: I have no doubt that police authorities are complying with the request addressed to them by my predecessor by considering this question in the light of existing conditions and consulting with the military authorities where necessary. As I stated on 8th October in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Mr. Parker), I am not at present in a position to give particulars, but I hope to be able at a later date to give some information about the steps which police authorities have decided to take.
    Miss Ward: Is my right hon. Friend himself sympathetic towards the appointment of women police?
    Mr. Morrison: I am always sympathetic about the appointment of women to anything.
    Viscountess Astor: What is my right hon. Friend going to do about the authorities who, instead of doing what the Home Office wants them to do, do not appoint women for patrol duty but have appointed them as clerks and telephonists? Every women's society in the country—even the Labour party—have begged the Government to appoint women police, and what is being done about it?
    Mr. Morrison: If my Noble Friend will let me have particulars, I will look into them, but we have not yet reached the point where a Home Secretary should give detailed instructions to local authorities. There is a point beyond which we ought not to go.
    Viscountess Astor: Is it not true that you would not have had men police throughout the country if local authorities had not demanded them, and is it not going to be the same with women?
    Miss Rathbone: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the appointment of women police is quite as strongly desired by many military commanders and women's organisations as a protection against the nuisance caused by loose women and silly girls who infest the neighbourhood of camps, and are a danger to the soldiers and are endangered by them?

    SUMMER TIME (EXTENSION).
    Mr. R. J. Taylorasked the Home Secretary whether it is proposed to prolong Summer Time throughout the winter?
    Sir Frank Sandersonasked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the necessity of limiting hindrance to armament production, he will ensure the maximum use of the shortened daylight by retaining Summer Time during the whole period of the war?
    Mr. H. Morrison: It has been decided in the special circumstances now obtaining to extend Summer Time throughout the coming winter, and the necessary steps are being taken to give effect to this decision.

    EUROPEAN PEOPLES (POST-WAR RELIEF).
    Mr. Sorensenasked the Prime Minister whether he will consider approaching the Governments of the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and other neutral Powers, both with a view to discovering any joint action that can be taken immediately, respecting agreed and genuine humanitarian service to European peoples; and also respecting plans of relief, reconstruction and international co-operation to become operative at the end of the war?
    The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): His Majesty's Government have constantly in mind the broad considerations which the hon. Member has mentioned. They feel, however, that it would be premature at the present stage to embark upon any such positive course as he suggests.
    Mr. Sorensen: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in view of the coercive action of the Nazi Government, it is highly desirable that we should take voluntary and co-operative action so as to counterbalance the influence of the Nazi Government?
    Mr. Attlee: Yes, I think that is implied in my answer.

  AGRICULTURE.

    BOMB CRATERS.
    Rear-Admiral Beamishasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is
    1140
    aware that, apart from damage to house property, there is a number of bomb craters about the country in agricultural land and gardens; that the owners of such land and gardens have neither the labour nor the money to restore the damage; and what steps he is taking to rectify this position?
    The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given on 16th October to a Question put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Howdenshire (Colonel Carver).
    Rear-Admiral Beamish: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that the War Office have already disclaimed responsibility and are not helping in this matter, and can he use his influence with other Departments in order to get the matter speeded up?
    Mr. Hudson: Part of the answer given by the Parliamentary Secretary was:
    "The acreage of agricultural land which has been rendered temporarily uncultivable owing to enemy action is infinitesimal compared with the total acreage under crops and grass in this country while the damage to buildings has been relatively insignificant. As regards the repair of farm buildings and plant damaged by enemy action, my right hon. Friend is prepared, on the recommendation of the War Agricultural Executive Committee for the county concerned, to consider action under the Essential Buildings and Plant (Repair of War Damage) Act, 1939."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th October, 1940; col.692, Vol. 365.]
    Sir J. Lucasasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will take steps to enable farmers whose land is pitted with bomb craters to have these filled in and damage repaired without additional cost to themselves and without unreasonable delay; and to whom they should apply?
    Mr. Hudson: I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which was given by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for War to the hon. and gallant Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter) on 22nd October, as to the assistance which the Army is willing to give in this matter. Any further steps must await the result of the examination of the problem of insurance for war damage in industry generally.
    Sir J. Lucas: May I ask for a reply to the last part of my Question, in which I asked to whom farmers should apply?
    Mr. Hudson: To the war agricultural committees.
    Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Has my right hon. Friend taken into account the necessity of replacing broken land drains, which have a very deleterious effect upon the land?

    DRAINAGE, LOUTH.
    Lieut.-Colonel Heneageasked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the necessity for cleaning out farm and parish drains in the Louth drainage area and in the area above the Louth drainage area; and whether, in the interest of food production and of those who do clean out their drains, he will take steps to ensure that individuals who do not, do not prejudice the food production of those above them?
    Mr. Hudson: I appreciate that work is urgently required on many of the drains to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and I understand that the Lindsey War Agricultural Executive Committee have already served several notices under Regulation 62 of the Defence Regulations on occupiers both inside and outside the Louth drainage district, requiring the cleaning out of drains. The Lindsey County Council have also under consideration the submission of drainage schemes under Section 15 of the Agriculture Act, 1937, to my Department for grant in respect of land adjoining the Louth drainage district. No schemes have yet been submitted by the drainage board for grant, but I am informed that a consulting engineer is reporting to the board on the drainage system of the area as a whole. I am urging on the board the necessity of adopting a vigorous policy in the administration of their area.
    Lieut.-Colonel Heneage: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that war agricultural committees and county councils have sufficient powers to insist upon the obligation for land drainage being carried out?
    Mr. Hudson: Generally speaking, they have, I think, adequate powers.

    OLD AGE PENSIONS.
    Mr. Mainwaringasked the Minister of Health whether, since the reports provided by investigating officers form the basis upon which so many decisions on the part of courts of referees are arrived at, he will make it possible for these officers to be present at tribunals so that their evidence could be subject to ques-
    1142
    tions by or on behalf of the applicants for supplementary pensions?
    Mr. M. MacDonald: The procedure of Appeal Tribunals assumes that the pensioner will himself, if necessary with the help of a friend, explain the facts of his case to the tribunal, who will thus be in a position to decide at first hand what his circumstances are. I do not think, therefore, that the expenditure of time and money which the adoption of the hon. Member's suggestion would involve is justifiable, especially in view of the fact that a responsible officer of the Board attends each sitting of a tribunal to explain how the determination of the Board's officer has been arrived at.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Is the Minister aware that the decisions of the tribunals are in fact based largely upon persons who are not present, that the responsible officer referred to by the Minister is not the person who made the investigation, and that in a large number of cases the reports are widely misleading and contrary to the facts?
    Mr. MacDonald: The position is as stated by the hon. Member, but the representative of the Board who does attend familiarises himself with all the particulars of the report made by the officer in question, and is perfectly qualified to answer questions on those details.
    Mr. Mainwaring: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to have a special inquiry made into the operation of these tribunals, because he can take my word for it that they are extremely unsatisfactory?
    Mr. MacDonald: Perhaps the best basis of an inquiry will be such information as the hon. Member can give me from his experience. I will certainly look into evidence from his own experience.

  FOOD SUPPLIES.

    BREAD
    Mr. Manderasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the fact that white bread is largely deficient in vitamins, and is often baked with alkaline bleaches, thereby destroying what vitamins remain, he will consider the advisability of arranging for the supply to the public of highly extracted bread enriched with yeast and added vitamin concentrates?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George): Bread made from high extraction flour is freely available to meet public demand, and my Noble Friend does not consider it necessary to add to the vitamins already present in such flour.

    VEGETABLES (PRICES)
    Mr. Rostron Duckworthasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the high prices charged for vegetables despite the abnormal production in this country during the past summer; and whether, in 1941, he will ensure better means of preserving surplus vegetables so as to avoid any repetition of the high prices which now exist?
    Major Lloyd George: Having regard to the circumstances prevailing this summer, I cannot agree with my hon. Friend that the prices charged for most vegetables have been, or are, unduly high. In regard to the latter part of the Question, I can assure my hon. Friend that consideration is being given to the possibility of devising more effective means by preservation and otherwise of reducing the risk of wastage of fresh vegetables.
    Mr. Bellenger: May I ask whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman himself has been to retail shops and tried to buy vegetables, and, if not, would he consult his wife and get her opinion as to whether she thinks the prices are unduly high?

    LOCAL INFORMATION COMMITTEE OFFICER (SPEECH, OXFORD).
    Mr. Hoggasked the Minister of Information whether his attention has been drawn to a public speech in Oxford by Mr. A. J. P. Taylor, a member of the local Information Committee appointed by the Ministry of Information, to the effect that a withdrawal from Egypt would not be a major disaster; and whether he is prepared to take steps to prevent members of committees from committing themselves to irresponsible public statements of this nature without consultation with the Ministry?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Mr. Harold Nicolson): Yes, Sir. The gentleman to whom the hon. Member refers is a member of the local Information Com-
    1144
    mittee of the Ministry of Information, but, as he was careful to make clear at the time, he was speaking entirely in his personal capacity and not as a member of the local Information Committee. Mr. Taylor is neither a civil servant nor in receipt of remuneration from the Government, and he therefore enjoys the same right as any other British subject to express his private opinion on public affairs.
    Mr. Hogg: While recognising to the full the right of a British subject to express his private opinion on public affairs, is not the Minister aware of the very grave public disquiet which was caused in Oxford by the irresponsible and ridiculous statement made by a person in a public position? Is he not aware that it led to a very grave misapprehension as to the intentions of the Government?
    Mr. Nicolson: I am aware that Mr. Taylor's statements led to a considerable controversy at the time, but Mr. Taylor was speaking as an independent person.
    Hon. Members: No.
    Mr. Hogg: Does not the Minister recognise some responsibility for the people whom he appoints to these committees?
    Mr. Nicolson: I think my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension as to the functions of these Information Committees. They are not administrative sections of the Ministry of Information. They are voluntary and advisory bodies, and we have taken very great care that they should have on them representatives of every shade of opinion, even if those opinions are not such as to commend themselves to every member of the community.
    Colonel Arthur Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman make it clear to the servants of his Department that the only two persons who have responsibility for making statements of policy on behalf of His Majesty's Government are his right hon. Friend and himself who share responsibility in this House?
    Mr. Nicolson: There is no misunderstanding about that at all. In fact, I never pretended that Mr. Taylor was making any statement on behalf of His Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Thorne: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if the hon. Member for West Ham made a statement like that, he would be "pinched "?
    Mr. Hogg: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

    WAR RISKS (COMMODITY) INSURANCE.
    Sir George Broadbridgeasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a number of firms in the textile trade, whose premises have been destroyed by enemy action, are being severely handicapped in carrying on business elsewhere owing to the inordinate length of time which is taken in settling claims for War Risks (Commodity) Insurance; and whether he will take steps to see that the settlement of claims is accelerated?
    Major Lloyd George: There is no avoidable delay in settling claims under the Commodity Insurance Scheme, but my hon. Friend will recognise that the preparation and investigation of these claims may be protracted for special reasons such as the destruction of records, the temporary inaccessibility of damaged buildings, or the heavy demands falling on the expert assessing personnel in particular localities. In order to minimise the inconvenience to persons who have suffered loss, my Department is making substantial advance payments as an interim arrangement pending a final settlement in cases where circumstances justify this course.
    Sir G. Broadbridge: Is my hon. and gallant Friend not aware that so far no assessor has been appointed by the Board of Trade, and that no official who is styled an insurance official has even established his department?
    Major Lloyd George: In many cases assessors have been sent to the sites of damage before even the claims have come in, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that in the very difficult circumstances obtaining in the last six weeks not only has there been no avoidable delay but that very great progress has been made.
    Sir G. Broadbridge: If I give the hon. and gallant Gentleman particulars of a
    1146
    case of that kind, will he have the matter investigated?
    Major Lloyd George: Certainly, I shall be very glad to.

    PURCHASE TAX (CIRCULAR).
    Mr. Dunnasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that provident clothing associations and other similar organisations have circularised their clients that, after taking legal advice, the procedure to be adopted after the introduction of the Purchase Tax is to take the cost of the article, add thereto the Purchase Tax and then add thereto the usual rate of profit, thereby compelling the customer to pay usual traders' profit on the Purchase Tax in addition to the cost of the commodity; and will he say if the procedure is admissible?
    Major Lloyd George: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Burke) on 22nd October, and would add that, in the case of goods which are price-regulated under the Prices of Goods Act —and practically all essential consumption goods whose prices are not controlled by other means are price-regulated—it is definitely illegal to charge a profit on the tax.
    Mr. Dunn: I would like to ask the Minister whether, considering that thousands of people are involved in these transactions, special consideration might be given to it in so far as clients have been advised by these societies that they will be subjected to this procedure?
    Major Lloyd George: In the answer that I gave to the Question put by the hon. Member for Burnley I made it clear that the circular in question was a misleading document. A good deal of publicity was given to it, and the association responsible for it has been approached by the Central Price Regulation Committee.

    BRITISH ARMY (BILLETING).
    Mr. Caryasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the great difficulties which are being experienced in so many localities of finding billeting accommodation for war workers and evacuated persons, he will

    1147
    issue the strictest instructions that the billeting of troops must be spread out as evenly as possible among the civilian population, and that no civilian family or householder should be turned out of their home unless the military authorities offer adequate and suitable accommodation elsewhere?
    The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): The allotment of billets for military personnel is a matter for the police. It is not the practice to evict civilians to provide billets for military personnel, and the question of providing alternative accommodation, therefore, does not arise. The closest liaison has been maintained with the Ministry of Health to avoid, as far as possible, clash of interests between the billeting of military personnel and civilian evacuees.

  ROYAL NAVY.

    DIET.
    Mr. Liddallasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the officers and men aboard many of His Majesty's ships have had beef every day for the past three weeks; and will he at once make arrangements for greater variety in these men's diets?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Victor Warrender): The choice of diet for His Majesty's ships is arranged by individual vessels according to the wishes of the ship's company, the requirements of a balanced diet and the availability of provisions. If my hon. Friend has any particular case in mind, perhaps he would let me have details.
    Mr. Liddall: Am I to understand from the reply that the wishes of the ship's company are that they should have beef every day for three weeks?
    Sir V. Warrender: No, Sir.
    Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Is my hon. Friend aware that the bluejacket much prefers beef to mutton?

    LOSS OF His MAJESTY'S SHIP "GLORIOUS."
    Mr. Stokesasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that for 48 hours after the sinking of His Majesty's ship "Glorious" a consider-
    1148
    able number of survivors remained afloat on rafts; and why no adequate steps were taken to rescue them?
    Sir V. Warrender: It is a fact that a considerable number of survivors remained afloat on rafts for some time. Our aircraft and ships did in fact pass close to these rafts but unfortunately did not see them.
    Mr. Stokes: Is it not a fact that there were many hundreds of these people who were not saved, and is it not true that the Air Officer Commanding, Coastal Command, was not advised of the movement of this ship, and, if so, why not?
    Sir V. Warrender: I hope the hon. Gentleman is not going to suggest that there was any neglect to rescue these men, because it is inconceivable to anyone who knows anything about the Royal Navy that the Admiralty or any flag officer would not take every step to do so. The position is that this case was governed by the fact that, owing to some completely inexplicable cause, no signals made by the "Glorious" at the time were intercepted.
    Mr. Ammon: Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that nearly 1,000 men were lost—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"]—and does not that emphasise the need for a court-martial, which has been asked for again and again in this particular case?
    Sir V. Warrender: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been a court of inquiry, but as the hon. Gentleman also knows, the officer commanding this ship went down with her, and much of what happened must of necessity be a mystery. If anybody attempts to suggest that there was any neglect on the part of the Admiralty or any flag officer, then I take the strongest possible exception to that.
    Mr. Stokes: Is it not a fact that no instructions were passed to the operational staff of the Admiralty with regard to the movements of His Majesty's ship "Glorious," and why was not that done?
    Sir V. Warrender: That is an entirely different question.
    Sir A. Southby: In order to clear up this matter and do justice to the naval authorities, is it not about time that the name of the officer responsible for this disaster was made public?
    Mr. Stokes: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment at an early date.

    OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Sir Henry Morris-Jones: On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that there is no copy of yesterday's OFFICIAL REPORT procurable at the Vote Office this morning? In view of the fact that the London newspapers are circulated every morning, and that the House rises early each day, is it not desirable that the publication of the OFFICIAL REPORT should be expedited?
    Mr. Speaker: This is the first I have heard of it. I will make inquiries.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal to state the future Business of the House?
Mr. Attlee: The business to be considered when the House meets again is as follows:
First Sitting Day—Committee stage of the Supplementary Estimate for Supplementary Old Age and Widows' Pensions.
Second Sitting Day—Committee stage of the following Supplementary Estimates: Further Grant-in-Aid to the Central Committee for Refugees; Grant-in-Aid for the British Association for International Understanding and for Camps. A statement will be made later with regard to the business to be taken on the third Sitting Day.
Mr. Mander: Will an early opportunity be afforded for a discussion on the organisation of the Home Guard, if representations are made through the ordinary channels?
Mr. Attlee: If representations are made, they will certainly be considered.
Earl Winterton: I understand, from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, and from what I have learned through the usual channels, that it is not yet possible to promise definitely a day for the discussion of Colonial and Indian defence. In view of the importance of the Delhi Conference, can we have an assurance that the matter is under active consideration?
Mr. Attlee: Yes, Sir. It is under active consideration. It is hoped to arrange for a day shortly.
Mr. Hore-Belisha: Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake that if an event of importance occurs Parliament will be assembled at once? That was not done in the case of the Dakar episode.
Mr. Attlee: Certainly; if there is need for it, Parliament will be called earlier.
Sir A. Southby: In view of the speed with which events are moving in the Near East, will the right hon. Gentleman consult with the Prime Minister as to the advisability of making another statement to this House on the course of the war at the present time?
Mr. Attlee: I will bring that to the Prime Minister's notice.
Mr. Shinwell: When will a statement be made about the functions of the newly-appointed First Commissioner of Works?
Mr. Attlee: Immediately.
Mr. Shinwell: What does my right hon. Friend mean by "immediately"?
Mr. Attlee: As soon as my hon. Friend sits down.
Mr. Bellenger: Is it proposed to prolong the present Session indefinitely, or to start a new one in the near future?
Mr. Attlee: It is not for me to make a statement on that matter.
Colonel Arthur Evans: May we have the promised statement from the War Office on the organisation of the Home Guard at the earliest possible time?
Mr. Attlee: The statement will have to be made before we can have a Debate on the matter.

MINISTRY OF WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Mr. Attlee: I will, with permission, now make the promised statement about the functions of the Ministry of Works and Buildings.
The Ministry of Works and Buildings will be responsible for the erection of all new civil works and buildings required by any other Government Department. It will take over to begin with the whole

1151
organisation of His Majesty's Office of Works, including their present responsibilities for the erection of buildings for other Civil Departments and for Service Departments, and the work of the Ministry of Supply, including the new buildings section of the Ordnance Factories and the approval of plans of new private factories or extensions of existing private factories, to the cost of which the Ministry of Supply is contributing.
Highly specialised work at present carried out by the Service Departments, either by direct labour or through contractors (such as the civil engineering works of the Admiralty; the construction of aerodromes or aerodrome buildings; fortification and defence works); and work overseas will remain with the Service Departments.
The responsibility for maintenance and repairs of buildings and equipment in use by the Service Department or the Ministry of Supply will remain with those Departments, except in so far as a transfer to the Ministry of Works and Buildings may be mutually agreed to be convenient.
The Ministry of Works and Buildings will be responsible for the licensing of private building, and for determining the priority of proposals for rebuilding buildings damaged by air raids.
The Ministry of Works and Buildings may arrange, by agreement with the Service Departments or the Ministry of Aircraft Production, to erect on their behalf new works and buildings not of a highly specialised character, such as stores or depots or houses and buildings of an architectural nature, and for the supervision of contracts for the erection of new private factories or the extension of existing private factories required for war production.
The Production Council will lay down the general order of priority of building work. The Minister will be a member of the Production Council and responsible for the Works and Buildings Priority Committee. He will determine the application of the directions of the Production Council to the priority of particular buildings, subject to appeal, if necessary, to the Council.
The Minister will be empowered to call on all Departments retaining responsibility for the erection and maintenance of build-
1152
ings and works of construction (including Departments concerned with work carried out by or on behalf of local authorities or public utility undertakings) to furnish from time to time such information as he may require as to the present and prospective demands of themselves and their contractors for labour and materials, and any points ancillary thereto.
The Minister will be responsible for such control or central purchase of building materials not at present controlled as may be necessary.
The Minister will take steps to institute research into such questions as the adoption of substitutes for building materials which are in short supply, or the modification of designs and specifications with a view to expedition, and to ensure that the results of past and future research are promptly communicated to all concerned. For this purpose he will make full use of the Building Research organisation of D.S.I.R. He will be empowered to call on Departments retaining responsibility for building to satisfy him that they are making full use of the results of research in this connection.
It is clear that the reconstruction of town and country after the war raises great problems and gives a great opportunity. The Minister of Works and Buildings has, therefore, been charged by the Government with the responsibility of consulting the Departments and organisations concerned with a view to reporting to the Cabinet the appropriate methods and machinery for dealing with the issues involved.
Mr. Shinwell: Will not this division of functions to which my right hon. Friend has referred lead to considerable overlapping? Would it not be desirable to effect rather more co-ordination in respect of planning for building purposes? If we are to wait until the end of the war for a report by the First Commissioner of Works on the buildings required to provide millions of our population with habitations, what is to be done now for the people who require accommodation? Is there to be any planning undertaken for the civilian population during the war?
Mr. Attlee: I do not think it is possible to debate the subject by question and answer across the Floor of the House; but I do not understand why my hon. Friend assumes that nothing is to be done immediately, or that there is any question

1153
of waiting until the end of the war. Also, there is no division of functions, except that, for obvious reasons, certain technical officers will remain with the Service Ministries.
Mr. Shinwell: As this matter obviously cannot be settled by question and answer, will an early opportunity be provided to debate it?
Mr. Attlee: Yes, I think it is highly desirable to have an early Debate.
Sir P. Harris: Are we to understand that all new buildings and construction will be subject to centralised control, or will it be delegated, as before, to the Building Acts committees of the local authorities? If it is to be centralised, will that not lead to endless delay?
Mr. Attlee: I think that if the hon. Member reads the statement, he will see the exact extent of centralised control.
Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Will the right hon. Gentleman inform us as to the exact meaning of the term "buildings of an architectural nature"?
Mr. Attlee: That means, buildings of some architectural merits. Many buildings have none.
Mr. Lawson: Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that leaving these matters in the hands of the Service Departments will result in conflicting tenders and competition for labour? Will that not leave the position, as far as building is concerned, exactly where it is?
Mr. Attlee: I think hon. Members would do well to study the statement. That is directly contrary to what is in the statement. There is full power given to the Minister with regard to priorities and control. The point that the hon. Member makes deals with the actual carrying out of certain technical functions.
Sir William Davison: Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that these various committees will put no immediate bar on the replacement of urgent buildings which have been destroyed?
Mr. Attlee: That is one of the objects of this proposal; but, in view of the limited amount of material and labour, it is quite clear that there must be a decision on priorities, as to what buildings should be replaced first.
Mr. Hicks: In view of the importance of this new Ministry and of the great hopes placed in it, and having heard the statement made now, which is far too extensive for me to understand in its full implications, would my right hon. Friend not agree—

ROYAL ASSENT.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went; and, having returned—
Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to:
Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Act, 1940.

MINISTRY OF WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
Mr. Thorne: Arising out of the statement of the Lord Privy Seal, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether there is any intention of appointing a Parliamentary Secretary to the new Ministry of Works and Buildings?
Mr. Attlee: That question is under consideration.
Mr. Lewis: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether the office of First Commissioner of Works is to be abolished?
Mr. Attlee: No, it is to be absorbed.
Mr. Glenvil Hall: May I ask whether the research to which reference has been made will include research into the question of rents and land values?
Mr. Speaker: I think hon. Members had better await the Debate which is to take place on another occasion.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to—
Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill, without Amendment.
Clyde Lighthouse Consolidation Order Confirmation Bill.
Fife County Council Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to resolve doubts as to the extent of certain restrictions affecting securities and to validate certain securi-

1155
ties as respects which the restrictions were not complied with." Security (Validation) Bill [Lords.]

SECURITY (VALIDATION) BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon the next Sitting Day.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  PROLONGATION OF PARLIAMENT BILL.
  Considered in Committee; reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE ACTS.
  Resolved,
  "That the draft Unemployment Assistance (Determination of Need and Assessment of Needs) (Amendment) Regulations, 1940, made by the Minister of Labour and National Service under the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1934, a copy of which was presented to this House on 8th October, be approved."—[Mr. Benin.]

  SECRET SESSION.
  Notice taken, that strangers were present.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 89, put the Question, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."
  Question agreed to.
  Strangers withdrew accordingly.
  The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.
  [The following record of the subsequent proceedings appeared in the Votes and Proceedings:

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  And it being the hour appointed for the interruption of business, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Boulton.]
  [The following Report of the Proceedings in Secret Session was issued under the authority of Mr. SPEAKER:
  "The House went into Secret Session, and a Debate took place on the Air Defences of the Country. A statement was made by the Secretary of State for Air."]