Commons Sitting of 29 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
NEW WRIT.
For the County of Hants (Fareham Division) in the room of the Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas Walker Hobart Inskip now Viscount Caldecote, C.B.E., Lord Chancellor of Great Britain. — [Captain Margesson.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  RESERVED OCCUPATIONS (DISCHARGED EMPLOYÉS).
  Mr. Storeyasked the Minister of Labour whether men in reserved occupations who have been discharged on account of lack of work are being refused for His Majesty's forces and National Service?
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): Yes, Sir. The Schedule is based on the estimated requirements in industry when the national war effort is fully developed, andthe fact that a man covered by the Schedule is at present out-of-work is not a reason for his exclusion. The details of the Schedule are open to revision from time to time.
  Sir Joseph Nall: Does my right hon. Friend realise that men who have been serving for some months in camp are now being discharged and have nothing to do except to draw unemployment pay?
  Mr. Brown: That may be so for a week or two, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we have two things to do to maintain the balance of the fighting services on the one hand and industry on the other. That is not easy, and it cannot be done on a short-term view.
  Sir J. Nall: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the discharge of men who have been in camp and in training for 18 months in some cases is greatly re-
  1612
  sented by them and considered a silly waste of time?
  Mr. Brown: That is perhaps because they do not understand. I deprecate in the strongest way the use of the term "silly waste." There was silly waste in the last war, when hundreds of thousands of men were taken into the Services and we had great difficulty in getting them out again.
  Sir Percy Harris: Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that it is not silly waste that men should be idle, when they wish to do training or something useful at this time?
  M. Brown: I deprecate the use of that phrase. A man may not be wanted this week, but he may be wanted next week or any day.
  Sir Nairne Stewart Sandeman: Can my right hon. Friend say to how many people these discharges apply?
  Mr. Brown: I cannot say that without inquiry.

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT ACT (MINERS).
  Mr. Leeasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that certain colliery managers are telling their workmen that the Control of Employment Act prevents them changing their employment from one mine to another; and will be take steps to make it clear that neither the Act nor in regulations subsequently to be made will this right of change be denied as long as the work obtained is of national importance?
  Mr. E. Brown: No order has yet been made to bring the Control of Employment Act into operation. Accordingly no employers or employ És are yet affected by the Act. With regard to the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to the assurance given on the point when the Bill was before the House on 14th September.
  Mr.Gledhill: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Order is likely to be made?
  Mr. Brown: Not until we have discussed particular cases with the industries and the occupations to which it may be necessary to apply the Order.
  Mr. James Griffiths: Will the Minister or the industry take the initiative?
  Mr. Brown: The initiative will rest with the Minister, and then there will be consultation with the industries concerned on the draft Order.

  SLAUGHTERHOUSES, GLAMORGANSHIRE.
  Mr. E. J. Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will reconsider the meat depot and slaughterhouse arrangements for Glamorganshire, particularly as regards provision of depots for mid-Glamorgan?
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The provision of slaughterhouses for the purposes of the meat scheme is receiving further consideration and I have arranged that the position in Glamorganshire shall be reviewed.

  FIGHTING SERVICES (DEPENDANTS' BIRTH CERTIFICATES).
  Mr. E. J. Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether birth certificates for dependants of members of His Majesty's fighting forces will be provided free or at a nominal charge?
  Mr. W. S. Morrison: Thequestion of establishing arrangements for the gratuitous verification of proof of age and parentage in cases where it is agreed to be necessary is at present under consideration by the Government Departments concerned.

  MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

    PROPAGANDA.
    Mr. Hannahasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information whether he will consider using the knowledge and experience of the large advertising firms to put out propaganda in its most convincing form?
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Information (Sir Edward Grigg): Yes, Sir; in fact, the Ministry have already begun to do so.

    GERMANY (BRITISH LEAFLETS).
    Miss Rathboneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of In-
    1614
    formation whether he will publish as a White Paper translations of all the leaflets hitherto distributed in Germany and release them to the press?
    Sir E. Grigg: My noble Friend does not think that it would be worth while to lay a White Paper, as translations of all the leaflets have already been published.

  EVACUATED HOSPITAL PATIENTS.
  Miss Rathboneasked the Minister of Health whether any systematic review has been, or will be, made, through the hospital or medical authorities or otherwise, of all the cases evacuated from hospitals to their homes at the beginning of the war, for the purpose of ascertaining whether they are receiving adequate medical and nursing attention?
  The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): All hospitals have been instructed to provide in-patient treatment for all in need of it, and if the medical advisers of patients requiring hospital treatment give a certificate to this effect the patients should be able to obtain admission to hospital, whether they are cases evacuated from hospitals to their homes at the beginning of the war, or fresh cases. In these circumstances I do not think it necessary to call for a special review of the cases sent home by the hospital authorities at the beginning of the war.
  Mr. Thorne: Can the right hon. gentleman say why he has stopped work on extensions of hospitals which are absolutely necessary?
  Mr. Elliot: The difficulty is in regard to the supply of materials and labour. I have not stopped any work which is necessary where it is possible to carry it out.
  Miss Rathbone: In view of the fact that many poor patients cannot afford to pay for domiciliary treatment, and, therefore, will not be in touch with any medical adviser, cannot the right hon. Gentleman arrange through the almoners, the district nurses and kindred organisations for visitation of evacuated patients to ensure that where they are in acute need of medical attention they will receive attention, which they may not be receiving and for which, in any case, they are unable to pay?
  Mr. Elliot: Surely, all these cases are covered by the domiciliary services, or through the insurance schemes, or through the out-patients' department of the hospitals. If any almoner, district nurse or anybody else comes into contact with any case which requires hospital treatment they should refer the matter to the patient's medical attendant, or, if the patient has no medical attendant, to the Public Assistance Authority. It is only on the certificate of a medical practitioner that a patient will be admitted to hospital. I think in that way the population is fully covered.
  Miss Rathbone: Will the right hon. Gentleman admit that there are many patients, especially chronic cases, that may become acute cases who have been evacuated suddenly from their homes, and there is nobody in the home able to write to a doctor, and even a panel patient may not be receiving regular domiciliary visits? Would it not be much safer if they could be visited in their homes, which could be done through the proper visiting agencies?
  Mr. Elliot: That problem affects not merely those evacuated from the hospitals at the beginning of the war but all sick people, and, obviously, they must be dealt with in the ordinary way: that is to say, patients in need of hospital treatment should be admitted to hospital in the ordinary way. The hon. Lady's further question does not affect merely a number of people who were sent home, but any number of cases that may arise in the future.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. Attlee: Can the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury say for what purpose it is proposed to move the suspension of the Four o'Clock Rule to-day?
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson): The Report stage of Ways and Means Resolutions are exempted business, but the rule with regard to exempted business does not apply on Fridays. Consequently it is necessary for a Motion to suspend the Four o'Clock Rule. This step is only taken as a precaution. I do not think that there will be any difficulty in our obtaining the Report stage of the Budget Resolutions to-day before Four o'clock. Afterwards, the Finance Bill will be brought
1616
in. Arrangements have been made for copies of the Bill to be in Members' hands as soon as the Reports have been agreed to and, as the Prime Minister announced yesterday, the Second Reading of the Finance Bill will be taken on Monday.
Ordered,
" That the Proceedings of the Report of Ways and Means of 27th and 28th September be not interrupted this day at Four or half-past Four of the Clock, and may be entered upon at any hour although opposed." — [Captain Margesson.']

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  WAYS AND MEANS
    REPORT [27th SEPTEMBER]
    Resolutions reported:

    BEER (EXCISE DUTY AND DRAWBACK).
    1. "That on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine—
    (a) there shall be charged in respect of beer brewed in the United Kingdom, in lieu of the duty of excise theretofore chargeable in respect thereof, a duty of excise at the following rates—

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every 36 gallons of worts of a specific gravity of 1,027 degrees or less

    2

    8

    0

    For every 36 gallons of worts of a specific gravity exceeding 1,027 degrees—

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    2

    8

    0

    For every additional degrees in excess of 1,027 degrees

    0

    2

    0

    and so in proportion for any less number of gallons;
    (b) no rebate shall be allowed from any duty of excise for the time being chargeable in respect of beer to which this Resolution applies;
    (c) on the exportation from the United Kingdom as merchandise, or for use as ships' stores, of beer in respect of which it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that the duty of excise chargeable under this Resolution has been paid, there shall be allowed (in addition to the drawback allowable under Section two of the Finance Act, 1933, but in lieu of any other excise drawback) an excise drawback at the following rates: —

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every 36 gallons of beer of an original gravity of 1,027 degrees or less

    2

    8

    2

    For every 36 gallons of beer of an original gravity exceeding 1,027 degrees—

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    2

    8

    2

    For every additional degree in excess of 1,027 degrees

    0

    2

    0

    and so in proportion for any less number of gallons;
    Provided that—

    (i) nothing in this Resolution shall apply to beer of any description specified in Subsection (1) of Section two of the Finance Act, 1930; and

    (ii) as respects beer of an original gravity of less than 1,027 degrees, the amount of drawback allowable shall not exceed by more than two pence for every thirty-six
    1624
    gallons the amount of duty which is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and excise to have been paid.

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    BEER (CUSTOMS DUTY AND DRAWBACK).
    2. "That on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine—
    (a) there shall be charged in respect of beer imported into the United Kingdom (in addition to any duty of customs chargeable in respect thereof under section two of the Finance Act, 1933, but in lieu of any other duty of customs) a duty of customs at the following rates: —

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every 36 gallons, where the worts thereof were, before fermentation, of a specific gravity of 1,027 degrees or less—

    In the case of beer being an Empire product

    2

    8

    5

    In the case of beer not being an Empire product

    3

    8

    5

    For every 36 gallons, where the worts thereof were, before fermentation, of a specific gravity exceeding 1,027 degrees—

    In the case of beer being an Empire product —

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    2

    8

    5

    For every additional degree in excess of 1,027 degrees

    2

    0

    In the case of beer not being an Empire product —

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    3

    8

    5

    For every degree in excess of 1,027 degrees

    2

    0

    and so in proportion for any less number of gallons;
    (b) no rebate shall be allowed from any duty of customs for the time being chargeable in respect of beer to which this Resolution applies;
    (c) on the exportation from the United Kingdom as merchandise, or for use as ships' stores, of beer in respect of which it is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that the duty of customs chargeable under this Resolution has been paid, there shall be allowed (in addition to the drawback allowable under Section two of the Finance Act, 1933, but in lieu of any other customs drawback) a customs drawback at the following rates: —

    £

    s.

    d.

    For every 36 gallons, where the worts thereof were, before fermentation, of a specific gravity of 1,027 degrees or less—

    £

    s.

    d.

    In the case of beer being an Empire product

    2

    8

    2

    In the case of beer not being an Empire product

    3

    8

    2

    For every 36 gallons, where the worts thereof were, before fermentation, of a specific gravity exceeding 1,027 degrees—

    in the case of beer being an Empire product—

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    2

    8

    2

    For every additional degree in excess of 1,027 degrees

    2

    0

    In the case of beer not being an Empire product—

    For the first 1,027 degrees

    3

    8

    2

    For every degree in excess of 1,027 degrees

    2

    0

    and so in proportion for any less number of gallons:
    Provided that—

    (i) nothing in this Resolution shall apply 10 beer of any description specified in subsection (1) of Section two of the Finance Act, 1930; and

    (ii)as respects beer of an original gravity of less than 1,027 degrees the amount of drawback allowable shall not exceed the amount of duty which is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to have been paid, less threepence for every thirty-six gallons.

    TABLE.

    1.

    2.

    3.

    Description of Spirits.

    Preferential Rates.

    Full Rates.

    In cask.

    In bottle.

    In cask.

    In bottle.

    For every gallon computed at proof of —

    £

    s

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    £

    s.

    d.

    Brandy or rum

    …

    …

    …

    …

    4

    2

    10

    4

    3

    10

    4

    5

    4

    4

    6

    4

    Imitation rum or Geneva

    …

    …

    4

    2

    11

    4

    3

    11

    4

    5

    5

    4

    6

    5

    Unsweetened spirits other than those already euumerated;

    …

    …

    …

    4

    2

    11

    4

    2

    11

    4

    5

    5

    4

    5

    5

    For every gallon of perfumed spirits

    …

    6

    12

    0

    6

    13

    0

    6

    16

    0

    6

    17

    0

    For every gallon of liqueurs, cordials, mixtures and other preparations in bottle entered in such manner as to indicate that the strength is not to be tested

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    —

    5

    12

    7

    —

    5

    15

    11

    For every gallon computed at proof of spirits of any description not heretofore mentioned, including naphtha and methylic alcohol purified so as to be potable, and mixtures and preparations containing spirit

    …

    …

    …

    …

    4

    2

    11

    4

    3

    11

    4

    5

    5

    4

    6

    5

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    WINES (CUSTOMS DUTY).
    5. "That, on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, in lieu of the duties of customs theretofore chargeable on wines, there shall
    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SPIRITS (EXCISE DUTY).
    3. "That on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the rate of the duty of excise charged on spirits by subsection (2) of Section three of the Finance Act, 1920, in addition to the duties specified in Part III. of the First Schedule to that Act shall be increased to four pounds two shillings and sixpence.
    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SPIRITS (CUSTOMS DUTY).
    4. "That on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine the duties of customs charged on spirits of the descriptions set out in the first column of the following Table by subsection (1) of Section three of the Finance Act, 1920, in addition to the duties specified in Part II of the First Schedule to that Act shall—

    (a) in the case of spirits being Empire products, be charged at the increased rates shown in the second column of that Table; and

    (b) in the case of spirits not being Empire products, be charged at the increased rates shown in the third column of that Table.

    be charged the following duties of customs on wines imported into the United Kingdom, that is to say —

    (a) in the case of wines of the descriptions specified in the first column of Part I of the following Table and not being Empire products, duties at the rates respectively specified in the second column of that Part of that Table;

    (b) in the case of wine not exceeding twenty-seven degrees of proof spirit and

    1627
    being an Empire product, a duty at a rate representing the full rate of duty for the time being chargeable on wine not exceeding twenty-five degrees of proof spirit and not being an Empire product, reduced by two shillings per gallon; and

    (c) in the case of wines of the descriptions specified in the first column of Part II of the following Table and being Empire products, duties at the rates respectively specified in the second column of that Part of that Table:

    Provided that the provisos to section three of the Ottawa Agreements Act, 1932 (which provide for an increase in the rate of duty chargeable on wine of the description mentioned in paragraph (b) of this Resolution) shall have effect as if for any reference to paragraph (b) of that section there were substituted a reference to paragraph (b) of this Resolution.

    TABLE.

    PART I.

    Description of Wine.

    Rate of Duty per gallon.

    s.

    d.

    Not exceeding 25 degrees proof spirit

    6

    0

    Exceeding 25 degrees proof spirit and not exceeding 42 degrees proof spirit

    12

    0

    For every degree or fraction of a degree above 42 degrees proof spirit, an additional duty

    1

    0

    Sparkling, an additional duty

    12

    6

    Still, in bottle, an additional duty

    2

    0

    PART II.

    Exceeding 27 degrees proof spirit and not exceeding 42 degrees proof spirit

    8

    0

    For every degree or fraction of a degree above 42 degrees proof spirit, an additional duty

    8

    Sparkling, an additional duty

    6

    3

    Still, in bottle, an additional duty

    1

    0

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

    SWEETS (EXCISE DUTY).
    6. "That, on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the date of the duty of excise on sweets shall be increased from seven shillings and sixpence to nine shillings and sixpence per gallon in the case of sparkling sweets, and from one shilling and sixpence to three shillings and sixpence per gallon in the case of other sweets.
    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    TOBACCO (CUSTOMS DUTY).
    7. "That, on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, in lieu of the full duties of customs theretofore chargeable on tobacco irr-
    1628
    ported into the United Kingdom, there shall be charged on tobacco so imported of the descriptions set out in the first column of the following Table duties of customs at the rates respectively specified in the second column of that Table:—

    TABLE.

    Description of Tobacco.

    Rate of duty per pound.

    s.

    d.

    Tobacco unmanufactured—

    containing 10 lbs. or more of moisture in every 100 lbs. weight thereof—

    unstripped

    13

    6

    stripped

    13

    6½

    containing less than 10 lbs. of moisture in every 1oo lbs. weight thereof

    Unstripped

    14

    6

    stripped

    14

    6½

    Tobacco manufactured, viz.: —

    Cigars

    22

    1

    Cigarettes

    18

    7

    Cavendish or Negrohead

    17

    9

    Cavendish or Negrohead manufactured in bond

    16

    0

    Other manufactured tobacco

    16

    0

    Snuff—

    containing more than 13 lbs. of moisture in every 100 lbs. weight thereof

    15

    4

    containing not more than 13 lbs. of moisture in every 100 lbs. weightThereof

    17

    9

    and so in proportion for any less quantity.
    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

    TOBACCO (EXCISE DUTY).
    8. "That on and after the twenty-eighth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, in lieu of the duties of excise theretofore chargeable on tobacco grown in the United Kingdom, there shall be charged on tobacco so grown of the descriptions set out in the first column of the following Table duties of excise at the rates respectively specified in the second column of that Table: —

    TABLE.

    Description of tobacco.

    Rate of duty per pound.

    s.

    d.

    Tobacco unmanufactured—

    containing 10 lbs. or more of moisture in every 100 lbs. weight thereof

    11

    3½

    containing less than 10 lbs. of moisture in every 100 lbs. weight thereof

    12

    0⅞

    Tobacco manufactured, viz.: —

    Cavendish or Negrohead manufactured in bond

    13

    4⅞

    and so in proportion for any less quantity
    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that is Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    TOBACCO (DRAWBACK).
    9. "That, as respects tobacco on which there have been paid duties of customs or excise at the increased rates for which provision is made by any Resolution passed by the Committee of Ways and Means on the same date as this Resolution, drawback shall be allowed at the rates set out in the following Table, instead of at the rates set outin Part III of the First Schedule to the Finance Act, 1939.

    TABLE.

    Description of Tobacco.

    Rate per pound.

    In respect of tobacco on which full customs duty has been paid.

    In respect of tobacco on which customs duty at a preferential rate or excise duty has been paid.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    Cigars

    14

    9

    12

    6

    Cigarettes

    14

    6

    12

    4

    Cut, roll, cake or other manufactured tobacco

    14

    3

    12

    1

    Snuff (not being offal snuff)

    14

    0

    11

    11

    Stalks, shorts, or other refuse of tobacco including offal snuff

    13

    9

    11

    8

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SUGAR, ETC. (CUSTOMS DUTIES).
    10. "That after five o'clock in the evening on the twenty-seventh day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the duties of customs on sugar, molasses, glucose and saccharin, shall be charged at increased rates as follows —

    (a)for the full rates of duty theretofore in force, there shall be substituted the rates specified in Part I of the following Table;

    (b) the amount of the general preferential reduction in respect of sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 degrees but not exceeding 99 degrees, shall be 7s. 6.8d. instead of 7s. 0.4d.;

    (c) for the rates of duty theretofore in force in respect of colonial sugar accompanied by a quota certificate, there shall be substituted the rates set out in Part II of the following Table, and any certificates issued under Section one of the Finance Act, 1934, whether before or after the passing of this Resolution, shall have effect accordingly.

    TABLE.

    PART I.

    FULL RATES OF DUTY.

    Article.

    Rate of Duty.

    s.

    d.

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98° the cwt.

    23

    4

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 97° and not exceeding 98 the cwt.

    19

    3.8

    Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76° the cwt.

    10

    0.9

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 76° and not exceeding 97°

    Intermediate rates varying between 10 s. 0. 9 d. and 19s.3.8d. per cwt.

    Molasses (except when delivered to a licensed distiller for use in the manufacture of spirits or yeast, or to a person for use in the manufacture of yeast in premises used solely for that purpose) — if containing—

    s.

    d.

    70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter the cwt

    14

    9 ½

    less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter the cwt.

    10

    7 ½

    not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter the cwt.

    5

    2 ½

    s.

    d.

    Glucose, solid the cwt.

    14

    9½

    Glucose, liquid, the cwt.

    10

    7½

    Saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use) the oz.

    7

    6

    PART II.

    RATES OF DUTY ON CERTIFICATED COLONIAL SUGAR.

    Article.

    Rate of Duty.

    s.

    d.

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 99°

    the cwt.

    14

    0.7

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98° and not exceeding 99

    the cwt.

    12

    6.3

    Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76°

    the cwt.

    6

    4.5

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 76° and not exceeding 98°

    Intermediate rates varying between 6s. 4.5d. and 12s. 6.3d. per cwt.

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SUGAR, ETC. (EXCISE DUTY).
    11. "That after five o'clock in the evening of the twenty-seventh day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the duties of excise on sugar, molasses; glucose and saccharin, shall be at the rates specified in the following Table, instead of at the rates theretofore chargeable:—

    TABLE.

    Article.

    Rate of Duty.

    s.

    d.

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 99°

    the cwt.

    16

    3

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98° and not exceeding 99°

    the cwt.

    14

    7·1

    Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 76°

    the cwt.

    7

    5·1

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 76 and not exceeding 98 °

    Intermediate rates varying between 7s. 5.1d. and 14s. 7. 1d. per cwt.

    Molasses (including all sugar and extracts from sugar which cannot be completely tested by the polariscope) — if containing—

    s.

    d.

    70 per cent. or more of sweetening matter the ctw

    10

    3½

    less than 70 per cent. and more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter the cwt

    7

    5

    not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter the cwt.

    3

    7½

    Glucose —

    Solid

    the cwt.

    10

    3½

    Liquid

    the cwt.

    7

    5

    Saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use) the oz.

    5

    2½

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    SUGAR, ETC. (DRAWBACKS).
    12. "That, in the case of sugar and molasses produced in the United Kingdom from material on which a duty of customs or excise is shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to have been paid at the increased rates for which provision is made by any Resolution passed by the Committee of Ways and Means on the same date as this Resolution, drawback shall be paid under Part II of the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1928, as if for references therein to the scales set out in Table 1 and Table 2 in that Part of that Schedule, there were substituted references to the scales respectively set out in Table 1 and Table 2 annexed to this Resolution, and the scales set out in Part II of the First Schedule to the Finance Act, 1934, shall not apply.

    TABLE 1.

    SCALE APPLICABLE IN THE CASE OF SUGAR PRODUCED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM FROM MATERIAL ON WHICH DUTY HAS BEEN PAID.

    Nature of Sugar.

    Rate of Duty Paid.

    Rate or Amount of Drawback.

    Per cwt.

    Per cwt.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 98 produced from material on which the full duties of customs have been paid.

    23

    4

    23

    4

    less than 23

    4

    21

    0

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 990 produced from material on which customs duty at the general preferential rates has been paid.

    17

    6

    17

    6

    less than17

    6

    16

    8·7

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 99 produced from material on which customs duty at the certificated colonial rates has been paid.

    14

    0·7

    14

    0·7

    less than14

    0·7

    13

    3·4

    Sugar of a polarisation exceeding 99 produced from material on which excise duty has been paid.

    16

    3

    16

    3

    less than16

    3

    15

    5·7

    Sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 98 produced from material on which the full duties of customs have been paid and sugar of a polarisation not exceeding 99 produced from material on which customs duty at the general preferential rates or the certificated colonial rates, or excise duty has been paid.

    Any rate of duty.:

    A drawback equal to the duty chargeable on sugar of the like polarisation.

    TABLE 2.

    SCALE APPLICABLE IN THE CASE OF MOLASSES PRODUCED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM FROM MATERIAL ON WHICH DUTY HAS BEEN PAID.

    Nature of Molasses.

    Amount of Drawback per cwt.

    Produced from material on which full customs duty has been paid.

    Produced from material on which customs duty at the general preferential rates has been paid.

    Produced from material on which customs duty at the certificated colonial rates has been paid.

    Produced from material on which excise duty has been paid.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    s.

    d.

    Containing more than 80 per cent. of sweetening matter

    …

    …

    …

    15

    9

    12

    6½

    9

    11½

    11

    7

    Containing more than 70 per cent. but not more than 80 per cent. of sweetening matter

    …

    …

    …

    13

    10½

    11

    0½

    8

    9

    10

    2½

    Containing more than 60 per cent. but not more than 70 per cent. of sweetening matter

    …

    …

    …

    10

    1½

    8

    0½

    6

    4½

    7

    5½

    Containing more than 50 per cent. but not more than 60 per cent. of sweetening matter

    …

    …

    …

    7

    7

    6

    0

    4

    9½

    5

    7

    Containing not more than 50 per cent. of sweetening matter and weighing not less than fourteen pounds to the gallon

    …

    …

    …

    …

    5

    0½

    4

    0

    3

    2

    3

    8½

    In the foregoing Tables—

    (a) the expression 'the general preferential rates' means the full rates of duty reduced by the amounts of the general preferential reductions specified in the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1939, as amended by any Resolution passed by the Committee of Ways and Means on the same date as this Resolution; and

    (b) the expression ' the certificated colonial rates ' means the special rates of duty applicable to colonial sugar accompanied by a quota certificate.

    And it is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913."

    STANDARD RATE OF TAX FOR 1939–40
    13. "That—

    (a)the standard rate of income tax for the year 1939–40 shall, as respects the last three quarters of the year, be increased by two shillings to seven shillings and sixpence in the pound;

    (b)the said increase shall be averaged over the whole of the said year so that the standard rate is, in relation to the year and every part thereof, taken to be seven shillings in the pound for all purposes, except that for the purpose of the applica-
    1634
    tion of section two of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913, to the month beginning on the sixth day of April nineteen hundred and forty, the standard rate shall be taken to be seven shillings and sixpence in the pound;

    (c) in connection with the said increase, amendments shall be made in section two hundred and eleven of the Income Tax Act, 1918 (as amended by sub-section (2) of section twelve of the Finance Act, 1930) and special provision made in relation to income chargeable under Schedule C, under Rule 6 or Rule 7 of the Miscellaneous Rules applicable to Schedule D, or under Rule 21 of the General Rules;

    (d) such other amendments shall be made in the Income Tax Acts as are consequential on the said increase."

    HIGHER RATES OF INCOME TAX FOR 1938–39.
    14. "That income tax for the year 1938–39 in respect of the excess of the total income of an individual over two thousand pounds shall, instead of being charged at the rates mentioned in section twelve of the Finance Act, 1939, be charged at rates exceeding the standard rate by the amounts specified in the second column of the following Table; and that such amendments shall be made in the Income Tax Acts as are consequential on the foregoing provisions of this Resolution:—

    For every pound of the first five hundred pounds of the excess

    One shilling and threepence.

    For every pound of the next five hundred pounds of the excess

    One shilling and sixpence.

    For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

    Two shillings and sixpence.

    For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

    Three shillings and sixpence.

    For every pound of the next one thousand pounds of the excess

    Four shillings and three-pence.

    For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess

    Five shillings.

    For every pound of the next two thousand pounds of the excess

    Six shillings and threepence.

    For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess

    Seven shillings and sixpence.

    For every pound of the next five thousand pounds of the excess

    Eight shillings and sixpence.

    For every pound of the next ten thousand pounds of the excess

    Nine shillings.

    For every pound of the remainder of the excess

    Nine shillings and sixpence.

    RELIEFS AND EXEMPTIONS FROM TAX
    15. "That—

    (a) the following enactments relating to reliefs and exemption from tax shall be amended as Parliament may provide by any Act of the present Session relating to income tax, namely—

    (i) subsection (2) of section forty of the Finance Act, 1927, as amended by subsequent enactments (which relates to the reduction of the tax remaining chargeable after the allowance of other reliefs);

    (ii) section eighteen of the Finance Act, 1920, as so amended (which relates to the personal allowance of married persons);

    (iii) section twenty-one of the Finance Act, 1920, as so amended (which relates to relief in respect of children);

    (iv) subsection (1) of section fifteen of the Finance Act, 1925, as so amended (which relates to relief in respect of earned income), and subsection (2) of that section, as so amended (which relates to persons over sixty-five years of age);

    (v) section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1935 (which relates to the exemption of incomes not exceeding one hundred and
    1636
    twenty-five pounds and a reduction of tax in the case of incomes less than one hundred and forty pounds);

    (b) such amendments shall be made in the Income Tax Acts as are consequential on any amendments which may be made in the enactments aforesaid."

    DIMINUTION OF EARNED INCOME.
    16. "That relief from income tax for the year 1939–40 be given to individuals whose actual earned income for that year is, owing to circumstances connected with the war, less than their earned income as assessed to income tax for that year."

    ESTATE DUTY (INCREASED RATES).
    17. "That in the case of persons dying after the twenty-seventh day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, the rates of Estate duty shall be —

    (a) as respects estates the principal value of which exceeds ten thousand pounds but does not exceed fifty thousand pounds, the rates set out in the Second Schedule to the Finance Act, 1930, increased in the case of each rate by one-tenth of the amount thereof; and

    (b) as respects estates the principal value of which exceeds fifty thousand pounds, the rates therein set out increased in the case of each rate by one-fifth of the amount thereof."

    First to Ninth Resolutions agreed to.
    Tenth Resolution read a Second time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed," That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    11.15 a.m.
    Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: I am afraid that we on these benches must oppose this Resolution. We have taken no exception to any of the preceding nine Resolutions and have allowed them to pass without any opposition. We might, of course, have taken strong exception to them on the ground that whetherthey are luxuries or not they do impose on the working class section of the population very large additional burdens to their weekly budget. We have not taken that view; we have not pointed out that these Resolutions, although they are taxes on superfluities, are taxes on the standard of life of the people, because we recognise that there is some case for putting a burden on and calling for sacrifices from all sections of the people. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer must himself realise that this question of sugar is in a different category.
    Let me review the position of this tax. As I understand it, in the course of a

    1637
    full year it represents, roughly speaking, 10s. per head of the population, so that in an ordinary family of five people, if you allow for the consumption of sugar by the household in various ways, it will represent something like £210s. per year to that family. It may be that 10s. is a little too much but, roughly speaking, this new burden which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is imposing represents Isa week on an ordinary family. Moreover this impost cannot be regarded in isolation from two other facts. In the first place, it must be within the knowledge of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the price of sugar, quite apart from this duty, has been steadily rising throughout the whole of the year. I saw a statement that it had already risen since April by over 1d. per 1b., and the effect of this further Id. will be to double the cost of sugar as compared with what it was only as recently as April of the present year. The other factor which is relevant to our considerations is that it is not the only item of essential working class expenditure which has gone up and which is likely to go up in the course of the next few weeksor months. Therefore, we are faced with this position, that there is a definite and a not inconsiderable rise in the cost of the bare necessities of life falling upon the working section of our population.
    I am not going to suggest that the better-paid artisans and workers in the country have no margin whatever, and that an imposition of Is. here and there is going to deprive them of their sustenance. I have no desire to overstate the case, and, indeed, to do so would be wholly wrong, but I do suggest that there are sections of the population of whom that is true. No one can possibly deny it. There are the people who are paid exceedingly low wages, then those who are unemployed and have to accept unemployment support, receiving very small amounts of money, and then there are the old age pensioners. It is for these classes that I am speaking now. I believe that my hon. Friends, much as they dislike the whole principle of the sugar tax, would not have thought it right to go to a division, as we propose to do, if it was only going to fall on the better-paid workers of the country. It is going to fall not only on that class but on the lowest classes of all and, therefore, we
    1638
    feel it necessary to make our protest. As I said yesterday, evacuation has shown what was not known to a very large number of people in the country before, the dire conditions which poverty imposes on certain sections of our population. This war, terrible as it is, can only be supported by our people in the hope of having a better world after it is over than we had before, and it would be a sorry line of thought if it became known that the nutrition of our children and of certain sections of our people was to be gravely injured by the methods we adopt to finance it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has given us no indication that old age pensioners, on the one hand, who are right down at the bottom, all the lowest working class families in receipt of very low wages or the unemployed people on subsistence levels, are going to receive any compensation to meet this additional cost on the necessities of life. We have had no such assurance, and as we realise that this tax will place upon large numbers of families a genuine burden, deprive them of necessities and lower their standard of existence, we feel compelled to oppose it.
    The position to-day with regard to sugar and a number of other articles is quite different from what it is in ordinary times. In ordinary times, the purchase of sugar and its disposal to the wholesalers and retailers, and finally to the public, is in private hands. That is not the case at the present time. I understand that the whole purchase of sugar from abroad is entirely in the hands of the Government. I am not at all sure that the Id. which the Chancellor proposes to place on sugar represents the whole of the Government's takings which go to make up the final cost of sugar. From what I have heard, I am not sure that the Government are not, in addition to this Id., increasing the price of sugar by making a margin between the price which they pay in buying from abroad and the price at which they sell to the next people in the line before the sugar finally reaches the consumer. If that be so, it is an additional point. It may be that the Chancellor will be able to set our feelings at rest on that, or it may be he will ascertain from other Departments what is the position in that respect. But quite apart from that, we cannot regard this Id. increase as being justified.

    1639
    Hon. Members opposite always resent any statement from these Benches that we are the representatives of the working classes, and that they are the representatives of richer sections of the community. I recognise that hon. Members opposite would not be there if they did not receive quite a large number of votes from people in humble circumstances. I put it to hon. Members opposite that, in the interests of the lowest class section of the population, the people who are on or below the margin line of poverty, they should bring pressure to bear upon the Chancellor. As a united House of Commons we should say to him that we are willing to accept sacrifices from the rich and sacrifices from other sections of the population which are above the poverty line, as being to some extent a share in the general sacrifices that have to be made, but that sacrifices from those people who are below the poverty line, which can mean only a loss of vital strength and health and lead to a weakening of the nation in the days that are to come, we will not allow at any cost.
    11.30 a.m.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): I should like to begin by-saying that I recognise fully the sincerity and moderation with which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) has expressed his protest. He was quite right when he said, in his concluding observations, that although we sometimes view-one another as though we were speaking for different sections of society, all of us in times like these know in our heart of hearts that we arc all trying to take a view for the whole of the British community. There is nothing I would like better than to give expression to that very natural feeling by giving way on this tax. I am no more a lover of this form of taxation than anybody else, but I must state briefly why it is that I am obliged to impose it and why it is that, in spite of what has been said and what no doubt will be said, I must ask the House to confirm the view of the Committee.
    The right hon. Gentleman began by saying that this tax will impose on the working class section of the population a disproportionate burden. I have often said, in speaking on taxation, that while
    1640
    direct taxation calls for a most tremendous and swingeing contribution from those having higher incomes, at the same time indirect taxation, by its nature, gets a contribution from people on all sorts of scales of living, and consequently, it is true that the proportional exaction in the case of the working class population, if one takes this tax by itself, will be more serious than it will be in the case of people who have more to spend. The right hon. Gentleman's figures were perhaps not quite accurate — I do not complain in any way, for he was using round figures — but naturally, I have done my best to have the figures worked out, and as a matter of fact, this duty of Id. will represent as near as may be 8s. 6d. per head of the population per year. Of course, 8s. 6d. per head per year is for some people quite a serious matter. We are all of us thinking of some people to whom it may even be a very serious matter, but clearly it is not a serious matter to another section of the population. It is the attempt which we have to make all together to get contributions all round which, in my view, makes it necessary to have an indirect tax of this sort.
    I have examined with every care the alternatives that were available, some of them old ones and some of them new ones; and it may well be that I shall incur in many quarters a reproach because I have not found some substitute. I do not think it would be right — and I believe the judgment of a great many people in the country will be with me here — that our indirect taxation should be limited simply to the people who smoke and drink. It is inevitable that we should choose some mode of contribution, which does call for sacrifice it is true, but which does cover every sort of home. For that purpose, I came to the conclusion that this is the one which we must adopt. The greatest possible efforts are being made by the Government to restrain rises of prices. There has never been in our history anything like the complete organisation which is now working with that object. Sugar is a case in point.
    Mr. Ellis Smith: Prices have gone up.
    Sir J. Simon: I am not saying that you can entirely prevent prices from going up. Of course you cannot in all cases prevent prices from going up.
    Mr. Quibell: But you can prevent pensions going up.
    Sir J. Simon: This is a serious matter, and I was answering the hon. Member who interrupted first. It is perfectly true that in the course of these difficult times prices will rise, and what I am saying is that very great efforts are being made to prevent that — efforts which are far more effective than have ever been made in any other war. In point of fact there will, no doubt, be, or there is likely to be, some restriction in the consumption of goods. That is not a matter for my department, but, of course. we are all interested in it, and we are endeavouring in relation to these staple commodities to see to it first that there is no profiteering — and a very effective machine is being worked for that purpose — and, secondly, we are trying to secure that the distribution of what is available shall be fair. We do not want to give people with one kind of income one kind of ration and people with another kind of income another kind of ration. There has to be a fiat ration.
    But when it comes to the suggestion— because this really was the suggestion — that we should not have as a part of these drastic proposals for taxation an indirect tax which no doubt imposes on the working class section of the population a burden and a sacrifice, a tax over and above what I may call taxes on drinks and smokes, then I am sorry I cannot agree. I have put this Budget together with the best effort I could, in order to try to distribute these undoubtedly very serious burdens over the whole population. I have done that as well as I could. There is, of course, a limit to human ingenuity, and I wish somebody could show me in this matter how to do it better. [Hon. Members: "Land Values."] I have no doubt many people will tell me that they could do it much better by special inspiration. But I have to stand for the whole plan as I have made it, and I hope very much that when hon. Members opposite have made their protest, they will recognise that I took my ground in this matter from a high sense of public duty and not from any unwillingness to appreciate the difficulties to which they have called attention. It is true that at the lowest end of the scale there are people to whom this addition, which may seem small to
    1642
    some of us, is quite serious. I am not disputing that. It is true that the imposition of such a duty does very minutely increase the figure of the cost of living. I think I am right in saying that it increases it by about 1.6 points, which is very minute indeed. But for the reasons I have stated I do not think we ought to refuse to impose this burden of sacrifice, serious as it may be to some people, as part of the scheme of the Budget, and I greatly regret that I am unable to accept the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
    11.39 a.m.
    Mrs. Adamson: I do not intend to take up much of the time of the House, but I am bound to express my disappointment with the reply which the right hon. Gentleman has made to the appeal from this side for the withdrawal of the proposed addition to the Sugar Duty. I am totally opposed to indirect taxation. I believe that the burden of taxation, even in peace time, ought to fall heaviest on the shoulders which are best able to bear it. I think the Chancellor in this case could have found some other method of getting the amount which he anticipates from the increased Sugar Duty, and of getting it from other sections of the community who can better afford to stand the strain than the working class people. Every housewife knows that the price of sugar has gone up to a very great extent. Sugar is a staple article of diet, particularly in working-class homes. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman realises that he is hitting more particularly in this proposal at the house-wives of the country, because there is scarcely anything prepared by cooking which does not require sugar, and it is also used largely on the table. As the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) said, this will hit the housewives and also the old age pensioners who find comfort in a cup of tea and who, like myself, are fond of sugar in their tea.
    It will hit another section of the community of whom we hear very little, although some of us have put questions in regard to them in this House and have got little satisfaction in the replies. I refer to soldiers' wives who are trying at the present time to cater for families on wholly inadequate allowances, and whose whole domestic life has been disorganised by the calling up of their husbands. The

    1643
    Chancellor said that this additional taxation would amount to about 8s. 6d. per head per year, which his, approximately, 2d. a week. The right hon. Gentleman cannot be conversant with the demand for sugar in the ordinary household, week by week, or he would not put it as low as that. There are very few housewives who do not use a great deal more than 2 lbs. of sugar each week. In any case we are disappointed with the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I hope that our protest will be carried into the Division Lobby in order to show the country that we object to this heavy imposition on the poorest section of the community
    11.42 a.m.
    Sir Francis Fremantle: I desire to make two remarks on the points which have been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) in opening this debate. He dealt with the question of nutrition in relation to this matter. Of course, the medical profession would be opposed to anything which diminished the nutrition of the people, especially of the poorest classes and those who are the most ill-nourished and who most require nourishment. The last speaker said the average incidence of this tax would be an extra 2d. per week. That is the average, but I think many of us know that well-to-do households and luxurious hotels, and those who cater for luxury people, use an enormous amount of sugar — far above the average per head which has been indicated. I would submit that the poorer classes of people cannot afford anything like the average which has been mentioned, and that the average for them must be a good deal less than 2d. per week. Of course, it will vary as between different households. There are those who feel it necessary to have very sweet tea and who, consequently, find it necessary to use more sugar than others. But the average must be less, on the whole, for the poorest classes than it is for the luxurious classes of people who spend a great deal of money on amenities.
    Let us consider what proportion of this sugar is devoted to real nourishment and what is used for amenity purposes, or is actually used in a way which is deleterious. Something like one-half the Sugar Duty is raised from sugar which is used for purposes of manufacture. It
    1644
    is largely used in the manufacture of confectionery, but it is used in other ways as well. For instance, the beer industry uses sugar to a large extent. But leaving aside other forms of manufacture, let us consider the question of confectionery in which a very large amount of sugar is used. Confectionery is very largely used even by the poorest children and the poorest people. The one thing on which the medical profession have been united more than on anything else in trying to save the health of the people is, as we all know, in the effort to save their teeth. — [Laughter.] —Do not laugh. It is the dental cavity which is at the root of rheumatism and innumerable troubles, and all those who have been dealing with public health in local government have been seeing to what extent they can extend the dental services and have regretted that these services have not yet shown how to prevent cavities.
    What is clear is the enormous damage that is done to children by confectionery. It is known very clearly all along the line that it is the constant sucking of sweets and leaving the residue in and around the roots of the teeth that is so detrimental. [Interruption.] It is a matter of common knowledge, and hon. Members opposite can ask any medical officer of health or anyone with knowledge of preventive medicine or dentistry whether that is not the case.
    Mr. Silverman: Does the hon. Member really argue that the people at the bottom end of the scale, those upon whom this tax will most severely fall, are people who eat so much sugar as to endanger their health?
    Sir F. Fremantle: Yes. Go 1o any sweet shop in the poorer parts and ask whether that is not so. It is a matter of common knowledge. It is natural for the ordinary parents to give their children a penny or two pence to spend on sweets, and hon. Members know that that is the case. This very serious contribution should come equally from the other side as from this side, and we ought not to look at sugar as merely a question of nutrition, but as something which has done a very large amount of damage. Therefore, while I do not doubt that this tax will fall heavily even on those who confine the use of sugar to nutritive purposes, at the same time the burden is very slight — far less than 2d. a week, and probably more like a penny a week,

    1645
    for the majority of people. I ask those who like sweet tea to try the experiment which was forced upon me when I was in Japan in the Russo-Japanese war, of having to take tea without sugar. I found that when you once get accustomed to it, the pleasure of having tea without sugar quite compensates for the pleasure of having tea with sugar. We cannot for a minute admit that the whole of the sugar burden is merely a question of nutrition, as a great deal of damage is done to the teeth through the use of sugar.
    11.49 a.m.
    Mr. Butcher: I listened with interest to the appeal made by the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence) with regard to those at the lower end of the income limit, and there is no doubt, from the point of view of the old age pensioners and the unemployed, that the task of rearranging their household budget will, to a certain extent, create very great hardships; but in looking at their position, we must bear in mind that over the whole population of this country their numbers are comparatively small. I think the House would do better to look at the requirements made on the ordinary working man and woman, and not forget that the average household consists of a man, his wife, and three children. The contribution required by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is something like 10d. or Is. from such a household. It is difficult for a man, a wife, and three children to rearrange their expenditure to pay that additional is., but I believe that it is a sacrifice which the ordinary man and woman of this country are quite prepared and willing to make. It is not more difficult to make the necessary adjustment on that income than it is to make it on a much greater income. It is extremely difficult for a man who has a house rent, an insurance premium, and school fees to pay to find the additional amount which is demanded from him in this Budget, and it is just as difficult, but no more difficult, for the working man with his family to rearrange his expenditure in the small way that is required of him. I hope that we shall be willing to do two things — to accept this as a very painful necessity, and to accept it unitedly, but at the same time, when this war has been won, to agree as unitedly that this shall be one of the very first things to disappear from the nation's Budget.
    11.52 a.m.
    Mr. Lipson: I hesitate to begin by saying that I have a great deal of sympathy with the point of view put forward by the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), because so many people begin by saying that, and then the rest of their speeches seems to indicate that they are not prepared to make any very practical contributions towards proving that sympathy. But I feel that this question is being approached by hon. Members opposite from the wrong end of the stick. The great majority of people who are called upon to pay this sugar tax admittedly can pay it. We were told that a great deal of it is used in luxury trades and luxurious hotels, and nobody on any side of the House wishes to let these people off their obligations, and because one section of the community cannot afford to pay a particular duty, it does not seem to me to be fair to the Chancellor to ask him to give up the yield of the tax from sections which can. Therefore, I wish that hon. Members opposite would rather concentrate their efforts on making it possible for the old age pensioners in particular to be able to meet the increased taxation.
    Mr. E. J. Williams: We are doing that.
    Mr. Lipson: I am very glad to hear it, as I am sure that the Government will pay considerable attention in these days to representations made to them with authority from the other side of the House. If this increase of 2d. a week on an old age pensioner for this particular duty is accepted, coming with the other increases made, you are getting a still stronger case than you had before for an increase in the pension, and I would ask hon. Members opposite not to oppose this additional duty, which can very well be paid by the great majority of the people who will be called upon to pay it, but rather to say that this is an additional reason why some increase should be made in the old age pension.
    11.54 a.m.
    Mr. Lewis: I listened with interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), and I agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he stated his case in a very temperate way. I think that there can be hardly anyone who listened to his speech who did not feel very considerable sympathy with much that he said, but it seemed to me that there was

    1647
    one weak point in his argument, to which, not unnaturally perhaps, he did not refer, but which really invalidated the whole of it. We are engaged in a life-and-death struggle, and great sacrifices are being called for. Burdens such as the liability to military service and powers for purposes of civil defence which interfere with the ordinary livelihood of civilians — these, we have to accept. If this Resolution were defeated and the increase were taken out of the Budget, the position would be that anyone who does not pay indirect taxation, does not smoke or drink alcohol, would not be called upon to make any extra contribution by way of taxation. When the right hon. Gentleman and his friends take up that attitude and do not put forward any practical alternative, it illustrates the reason why there are so few members of the Labour party in the House, because in these fundamental matters they fail so completely to interpret the real feelings of the great mass of the people. I do not believe there is any evidence that the mass of the people feel that this tax is unfair. Admittedly in some cases it is a substantial burden, but I believe that in the circumstances it will be cheerfully borne.
    11.57 a.m.
    Colonel Burton: I am sorry to be at variance with some of the remarks which have been made from this side of the House. When my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) talks about representing the real feelings of the people on the question of this tax, I would like to mention an incident which occurred at my house last night. A woman, an old age pensioner, came and asked me what we were going to do about raising the pension. She gave me her weekly budget, which was as follows. Her rent is 4s. 6d. She pays 6d. for some assistance
    because she is a semi-invalid. She pays 5s. 3d. for food. Thus she is already over the limit of her pension. She told me that, owing to the increase in the cost of living, a tin of salmon, which she used to buy for 7½d. for two days' food, now cost 11d. although it was probably old stock. When we add another penny or two pence to that woman's budget and realise that the action of the Government in commandeering food and selling it at an enhanced price is also adding to her budget, it seems to me they might have regard to what the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) said, and provide that more is paid for manufacturing sugar and less for sugar for domestic use.
    It is all very well talking about the crushing burdens on different sections of the community, but what is left is what matters. Dickens once described the difference between happiness and un-happiness, between luxury and poverty. He said that if a man receiving £ I a week spent 19s. 11d. and had a penny left, he was a happy man, but if he spent 20s. Id. he was an unhappy man. Many of these old people sent their husbands to the last War and are sending sons and grandsons to this war, and it is not fair to ask them to go on public charity when they have contributed so much to the benefit of the nation. Therefore, I am opposed to this additional tax, and I hope that the Chancellor will consider sympathetically some method of dividing it so that it will fall more heavily upon those who can pay it and less heavily on those who cannot.
    Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    The House divided: Ayes 113; Noes 79.

    Division No. 299.]

    AYES.

    [12.3 p.m.

    Albery, Sir Irving

    Campbell, Sir E. T.

    Duncan, J. A. L.

    Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S.

    Cary, R. A.

    Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.

    Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)

    Channon, H.

    Emott, C. E. G. C.

    Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet)

    Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)

    Fremantle, Sir F. E.

    Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.

    Chorlton, A. E. L.

    Fyfe, D. P. M.

    Bernays, R. H.

    Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)

    George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

    Bossom, A. C.

    Colman, N. C. D.

    Gilmour, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.

    Brass, Sir W.

    Colville, Rt. Hon. John

    Goldie, N. B.

    Briscoe, Capt. R. G.

    Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)

    Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)

    Brocklebank, Sir Edmund

    Craven-Ellis, W.

    Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)

    Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)

    Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)

    Cross, R. H.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Hannah, I. C.

    Burghley, Lord

    Doland, G. F.

    Hannon, Sir P. J. H.

    Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L.

    Derman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H,

    Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.

    Butcher, H. W.

    Dugdale, Captain T. L.

    Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-

    Hogg, Han. Q. McG.

    Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)

    Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.

    Howitt, Dr. A. B.

    O'Connor, Sir Terence J.

    Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)

    Palmer, G. E. H.

    Storey, S.

    Hume, Sir G. H.

    Peake, O.

    Strauss, H.G. (Norwich)

    Hurd, Sir P. A.

    Pickthorn, K. W. M.

    Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

    Kerr, Sir John Graham (Sco'sh Univs.)

    Plugge, Capt. L. F.

    Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)

    Lewis, O.

    Ponsonby, Col. C. E.

    Titchfield, Marquess of

    Lipson, D. L.

    Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

    Llewellin, Colonel J. J.

    Pym, L. R.

    Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan

    Lloyd. G. W.

    Ramsbotham, Rt. Hon. H.

    Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.

    Reid, W. Allan (Derby)

    Warrender, Sir V.

    Lucas, Major Sir J. M.

    Remer, J. R.

    Waterhouse, Captain C.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)

    Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)

    Wells, Sir Sydney

    McEwen, Capt. J. H. F.

    Rosbotham, Sir T.

    Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.

    Macquisten, F. A.

    Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.

    Williams, Sir H. G. (Croydon, S.)

    Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest

    Samuel, M. R. A.

    Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Sandeman, Sir N. S.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M.

    Sanderson, Sir F. B.

    Womersley, Sir W. J.

    Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.

    Shakespeare, G. H.

    Young, A. S. L. (Partick)

    Medlicott, F.

    Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

    Mitchell, Sir VV. Lane (Streatham)

    Smithers, Sir W.

    Mr. Munro and Major Sir James Edmondson.

    Moore, Lieut.-Colonel Sir T. C. R.

    Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

    Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's)

    Somerville, Sir A. A. (Windsor)

    NOES.

    Adams, D. (Consett)

    Groves, T. E.

    Riley, B.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)

    Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)

    Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)

    Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)

    Hardie, Agnes

    Shinwell, E.

    Adamson, W. M.

    Henderson, J. (Ardwick)

    Silverman, S. S.

    Ammon, C. G.

    Henderson, T. (Tradeston)

    Sloan, A.

    Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)

    Hills, A. (Pontefract)

    Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)

    Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.

    Isaacs, G. A.

    Smith, E. (Stoke)

    Bellenger, F. J.

    John, W.

    Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)

    Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.

    Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.

    Smith, T. (Normanton,

    Benson, G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G

    Sorensen, R. W.

    Brown, C. (Mansfield)

    Lathan, G.

    Stephen, C.

    Buchanan, G.

    Leach, W.

    Stokes, R. R.

    Burke, W. A.

    Lee, F.

    Thorne, W.

    Cluse, W. S.

    Macdonald, G. (Ince)

    Tinker, J. J.

    Cocks. F. S.

    Mainwaring, W. H.

    Tomlinson, G.

    Collindridge, F.

    Maxton, J.

    Viant, S. P.

    Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford

    Montague, F.

    Walker, J.

    Daggar, G.

    Naylor, T. E.

    Watkins, F. C.

    Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)

    Oliver, G. H.

    Westwood, J.

    Dobbie, W.

    Paling, W.

    Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)

    Dunn. E. (Rother Valley)

    Parker, J.

    Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)

    Ede J. C.

    Parkinson, J. A.

    Wilmot, John

    Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)

    Pathick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.

    Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)

    Gardner, B. W.

    Poole, C. C.

    Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)

    Green, W. H. (Dedtford)

    Pritt, D. N.

    Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.

    Quibell, D. J. K.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)

    Ridley, G.

    Mr. Charleton and Mr. Mathers.

    Resolution agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS [28TH SEPTEMBER.]
  Resolution reported:
  Charge of Excess Profits Tax.
  " That—

  (a)where the profits of any trade or business arising in so much of any accounting period as falls after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, exceed a certain standard, there shall be charged on the excess a tax of sixty percent.;

  (b)armament profits duty shall in no case be chargeable and the national defence contribution shall only be chargeable if it is higher than the tax chargeable under this Resolution;

  (c)the tax chargeable under this Resolution in respect of a trade or business for any
  1650
  period shall be allowed as an expense for income tax purposes incurred in that period but any repayment of the said tax allowed by reason of a deficiency of profits in a subsequent period shall be taken into account for income tax purposes as if it were a profit of the trade or business arising in that subsequent period;

  (d) special provision may be made as to the tax payable in the case of interconnected companies."

  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Captain Crookshank.

  FINANCE (NO. 2) BILL,
  to increase certain duties of Customs and Excise, to increase the standard rate of Income Tax for the year 1939–40 and

  1651
  the higher rates of Income Tax for the year 1938–39, and to make certain amendments in the Income Tax Acts; to increase the rates of Estate Duty, to impose an Excess Profits Tax; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 272.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn." — [Captain Waterhouse.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes after Noon, until Monday, 2nd October.