Commons Sitting of 15 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, MR. SPEAKER in the Chair.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  TERRITORIAL ARMY.
  Major Sir Jocelyn Lucasasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the recent announcement of the incorporation of the Territorial Army into the Regular Forces, officers and other ranks of the former Territorial Army will now cease to wear the letter "T" on their shoulder straps?
  The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Sir Victor Warrender): Although conditions of service in the Territorial Army, while it is embodied, are assimilated to those in the Regular Army, the Territorial Army has not ceased to exist, but it is not intended to continue the wearing of the letter "T" on their uniform during the war.

  AIR-RAID SHELTERS.
  Mr. Keelingasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has considered further the many anomalies in the rules for free issue of Anderson shelters; and whether he will extend such issue in vulnerable areas as supplies become available?
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): The basis on which the free distribution of these shelters is being made may give rise to anomalies in border-line cases, but it is designed to give a generous interpretation of the expressed policy of the Government, to provide shelter free of cost for persons who cannot reasonably be expected to provide it for themselves. I could not undertake to enlarge the scope of the present scheme of free distribution.
  Mr. Rhys Davies: Has the right hon. Gentleman had his attention called to this fact, that one person in a household in receipt of over £250 per annum cannot get a shelter for nothing, whereas with an income to the same house of over 800, provided that the householder's income is less than £250, they have not got to pay for a shelter?
  Sir J. Anderson: I know there are anomalies, and I do not see how they can possibly be avoided.
  Mr. Keeling: Could my right hon. Friend not consider the suggestion in my Question, that when supplies are available free issues should be made to everybody in the vulnerable areas?
  Sir J. Anderson: That will not arise for some time yet.
  Miss Rathboneasked the Home Secretary whether instructions have been given to those responsible for the provision of air-raid shelters to include in the equipment of these shelters, especially those having only one exit, several pickaxes, in case the exit is blocked by fallen masonry?
  Sir J. Anderson: It is a well established rule that an air-raid shelter should include some emergency means of exit, but local authorities are being encouraged as an additional precaution to provide equipment of the kind suggested, at any rate in the larger shelters.
  Miss Rathbone: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this point has been very much stressed by persons of long experience in air-raid provision in Spain, who think that without some means of forcing an exit shelters with only one exit may easily become very dangerous traps?
  Sir J. Anderson: I think the hon. Lady will have gathered from my reply that that is fully recognised.
  Major Milner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is quite a number of shelters in London with only one entrance and no other entrance or exit?
  Sir J. Anderson: No, I am not aware of that.
  Major Milner: I will call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to some cases.

  AUXILIARY FIRE SERVICE, LONDON.
  Mr. Isaacsasked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that officers of the Auxiliary Fire Service in London are experiencing considerable difficulty through the resignation of men who are compelled, under threat of loss of their employment, to resign from the service; and whether any steps can be taken to maintain the efficiency of the service and to protect the men who have offered and are still willing to serve.
  Sir J. Anderson: Representations to this effect have been received, and I understand that there have been some resignations, as was only to be expected, having regard to the circumstances in which the Auxiliary Fire Service personnel were enrolled and mobilised. But on the whole the response has been excellent, and resignations are relatively few. I am also glad to be able to say that since the crisis numerous applications to join the Auxiliary Fire Service have been received. The question of further safeguarding the position of men who have volunteered to serve in the Auxiliary Fire Service is receiving consideration.
  Mr. Isaacs: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some firms are taking this action so as to obtain for the protection of their own private property the services of men who have been trained at the public expense and in their own time?
  Sir J. AndersonIf the hon. Member will give me specific cases, I shall be very glad to look into them.

  ANGLO-GERMAN ORGANISATIONS.
  Mr. Manderasked the Home Secretary whether the activities of the Anglo- German Kameradschaft, the Anglo- German Circle, and the Anglo-German Academic Bureau, have now closed down; and whether the Anglo-German Review has ceased publication.
  Sir J. Anderson: I am informed that the Anglo-German Kameradschaft and Anglo-German Circle have been disbanded, that the Anglo-German Academic Bureau is in process of being wound-up, and that the publication of the Anglo-German Review has been discontinued.
  Commander Locker-Lampson: Are the British Fascists in Smith Square also being liquidated?
  Sir J. Anderson: That is another question, which my hon. and gallant Friend had better put on the Paper

  LICENSED PREMISES, LONDON (CLOSING HOUR).
  Mr. Ammonasked the Home Secretary whether he has yet received from the Commissioner of Police a report concerning drunkenness in the darkened streets following on the closing of all places of amusement except the public-houses; and whether, as increased drunkenness in Glasgow is the cause of the closing of public-houses in that city at eight o'clock, he is contemplating any similar step for London.
  Sir J. Anderson: It has not yet been practicable for the Commissioner to collect statistical information about drunkenness in London during the last ten days, but I am having a careful watch kept on the situation, not only in London but elsewhere. I fully recognise the importance of the point raised by the hon. Member, but such information as I have suggests that it would at present be premature to attempt to form an opinion on the question whether any further restrictions on the hours of licensed premises may be necessary.
  Mr. Ammon: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some parts of South London citizens have formed themselves into bands to protect shopkeepers against gangs who have smashed up milk and snack bars and other shops?
  Sir J. Anderson: I have spoken personally with the Commissioner of Police on the whole question of public order in London, and the impression that he has formed as a result of telephone communication with the various divisions is that there is no evidence of any substantial increase of drunkenness. On the other hand, cases of theft, house-breaking, and so on have shown actually a decrease, which is very satisfactory.
  Mr. Ammon: Will the right hon. Gentleman read the "South London Press,"

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  and he will see cases such as I have described reported there again and again?
  Sir J. Anderson: I will ask the Commissioner of Police to make a special inquiry and to give me the result as soon as possible.
  Mr. Thorne: Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the fact of so many special police being about is the reason why there are fewer burglaries?
  Sir Percy Harris: Is not the best way to keep people sober to give them reasonable facilities for entertainment?
  Sir J. Anderson: That has been done, as I think the hon. Baronet knows.

  FAIRS.
  Major Milnerasked the Home Secretary whether he will state the position regarding the opening and closing of public fair-grounds at the present time.
  Sir J. Anderson: Fairs are not prohibited by any order under the Defence Regulations. They are subject to the Lighting Order, and any exhibition or entertainment in connection with a fair to which the public are admitted on payment is subject to the restrictions contained in the Public Entertainments Order. I have been anxious not to impose any further restrictions on fairs, but when a fair ground includes a portion of a main highway it may prove desirable—owing to war time traffic conditions—for the fair to be abandoned or transferred to some other site. If this can be done by arrangement between the police and the showmen, I hope that the use of further compulsory powers under the Defence Regulations may be avoided.
  Major Milner: May we take it that, so far as shows and circuses are concerned, they are subject to the same rules as cinemas and may be open till 10 p.m.?
  Sir J. Anderson: That is so, subject to the lighting regulations.
  Major Milner: May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman has so far made no order at all regarding these fairs?
  Sir J. Anderson: That is the case.
  Sir P. Harris: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that he has no
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  intention to interfere with old established street markets and that they may be allowed to carry on as usual?
  Sir J. Anderson: I do not know what the developing situation may require, but there is certainly every desire to avoid interference with fairs, street markets, and established institutions of all kinds.
  Mr. Denville: Will my right hon. Friend not endeavour to grant some facilities to football clubs?

  PROFITEERING.
  Mr. Manderasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to provide for an investigation being made into alleged cases of profiteering?
  Captain Pluggeasked the President of the Board of Trade how many specific allegations of profiteering have yet been brought to his notice; whether he will state their nature; and what action has been taken in each case?
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Major Lloyd George): I am not certain what my hon. and gallant Friend means by specific allegations. The Board of Trade are aware of a number of present or prospective increases of manufacturers' prices in the staple trades, and inquiry is being made into these. The Board have expressed the general view that increases of price are only justified at the present juncture where they are directly related to increases of cost. There have also been various suggestions of profiteering by individual retailers. Where these appear to be substantial, inquiries are being made. In the light of these inquiries, my right hon. Friend will consider whether legislation is necessary.
  Mr. Mander: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how many complaints have been received up to date?
  Major Lloyd George: A few complaints have been received, and inquiry is being made into these at the present moment.
  Mr. Shinwell: When the hon. and gallant Gentleman speaks of "a few," can he give any indication of the number?
  Major Lloyd George: It depends upon what you mean by "a few." May I say "not many"?
  Mr. James Griffiths: Has the hon. and gallant Gentleman's attention been called to the practice which is being followed by some firms of putting some articles on a kind of list and indicating that customers will only be able to get supplies of them if they buy 5s. or 10s. worth of other goods, and is he satisfied that the Department have power to stop that pernicious practice?
  Major Lloyd George: That is outside my Department. I have only seen it in the Press generally, but it has not been brought to my notice. I would observe that questions have been put to me about profiteering and that they are being inquired into.
  Mr. Shinwell: Among the complaints which the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Department has received, have there been any complaints about the excessive price of sandbags and torches?
  Major Lloyd George: Not officially, but privately. I think sandbags have been mentioned, but I am not sure about torches. Bicycles also have been mentioned, and inquiries are being made into the matter at this moment.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman take an early opportunity of consulting the Department concerned and issue a statement that they regard the practice to which I have referred as being pernicious and one that ought to be stopped?
  Major Lloyd George: I will certainly bring it to the attention of the Department, but this is the first time it has been brought to my attention.

  WAR DAMAGE (LABOUR, EAST KENT).
  Mr. Frankelasked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that recently a number of unemployed men of various trades, mostly building, were called to the Ramsgate employment exchange and asked there and then to sign an undertaking that in the event of any damage from enemy action in the East Kent area they would, on receipt of short notice, and whether or not they were in other employment, proceed to the area and make good the damage; whether this action by the exchange officials was authorised; and whether he will explain fully the nature of the scheme in question?
  The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I am making inquiries and will communicate with the hon. Member.

  NATIONAL SERVICE.
  Mr. David Grenfellasked the Minister of Labour what steps should be taken by persons who wish to offer their services upon work of national importance whether whether paid or unpaid?
  Mr. E. Brown: As the reply is somewhat long, I will circulate it, if I may, in the Official Report. It contains, however, important guidance to those who wish to offer their services. I take this opportunity of urging all concerned to do so in the way indicated in the reply and to refrain from writing to or calling at the Ministry of Labour and National Service or some other Government Department. Such letters or calls impose a useless and wasteful strain on hard-pressed staffs.
  Commander Locker Lampson: Are Members of Parliament excluded from an opportunity of employment?
  Mr. Brown: I cannot give a general answer to that. I should want to know whether the employment was paid or otherwise. Perhaps the hon. Member will put his question on the Order Paper and I will give a considered reply. With regard to the general reply, it is somewhat long, and perhaps hon. Members will read it and put any further questions they wish to ask on the Order Paper next week.
  Following is the Reply:
  Men and women, whether employed or unemployed, who wish to undertake paid employment on work of national importance (otherwise than in the Civil Defence Services) should, according to circumstances, register full particulars of their qualifications and the kind of work desired with the Central Register maintained at the Ministry of Labour and National Service or at an employment exchange.
  Persons with qualifications of a scientific, technical or professional character who wish to be considered for enrolment in the Central Register should write to the Central Register, Montagu House, Whitehall, S.W.I, giving full particulars of their qualifications. Persons

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  already enrolled on the Central Register are asked to send written notice of any change of address or of circumstances affecting their availability. The Central Register cannot undertake to deal with visitors or telephone calls as to the action which is being taken in the case of individuals.
  Members of the medical, dental, pharmaceutical, nursing and legal professions should not apply to the Central Register and should consult the appropriate professional organisations if they desire advice or guidance.
  In all other cases of application for paid employment, except in the various branches of the Civil Defence Services, applicants should call at or write to the employment exchange for the area in which they reside.
  Those who wish to enrol for paid or unpaid employment in one of the various branches of Civil Defence and similar services mentioned in the National Service Handbook should apply to the offices of the local authority or to the other organisations responsible for such services; or, in the case of women, to the local branches of Women's Voluntary Services. Further information can be obtained at any employment exchange.
  Any woman who is already at work in ordinary commercial or industrial employment will serve the national interests better by remaining at her job and not seeking to change it except if she is suited for nursing or first aid and wishes to devote herself to whole-time service in such work.
  I should add that these arrangements are not intended to supersede the working of private employment agencies. On the contrary, it is desired that these agencies should continue in operation subject only to any specific restrictions which may be imposed by law.

  FILM CENSORSHIP.
  Mr. Manderasked the Lord Privy Seal, as representing the Minister of Information, whether the Ministry of Information accept responsibility for the security censorship to be now exercised by the British Board of Film Censors; what are the financial and administrative arrangements as between the Ministry and the Board; and whether news-reels, sub-
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  standard films, films for export, and all other types are included.
  The Paymaster-General (Earl Winter-ton): I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. The Board acts under the instructions of the Ministry in this matter, and its staff is being reinforced by the Ministry. The Board charges the producers the usual fees for the censorship of films for this country; in the case of films for export, where each individual copy has to be examined, a fee is charged for each reel censored. Drawback is allowed where imported films are censored before re-export. The censorship of films for showing in this country is voluntary, but no films may be exported without being censored. It is consequently in the interests of all film producers, including producers of news reels, sub-standard and all other types, to submit their films for security censorship.
  Mr. Mander: I understand from that answer that the Lord Privy Seal will reply to Questions on the subject of films in this House?
  Earl Winterton: Yes, Sir, I am only answering for the Lord Privy Seal, because he is unable to be present. The Minister of Information is responsible and the Lord Privy Seal will answer for him in this House.

  CIVIL DEFENCE WORKERS (BROADCASTS).
  Mr. Roland Robinsonasked the Lord Privy Seal, as representing the Minister of Information, whether he will request the British Broadcasting Corporation to broadcast musical recordings on their usual wave-lengths throughout the night for the benefit of Civil Defence workers who are waiting at their posts.
  Earl Winterton: This matter is being kept under review by the British Broadcasting Corporation in consultation with my noble Friend the Minister of Information but they do not feel that it has so far been established that the extension of hours which my hon. Friend suggests would, on the balance of considerations involved, be in the public interest.
  Mr. Robinson: Is my noble Friend aware of the real danger of boredom

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  which arises in the case of people who have to keep awake all night in case of an emergency?
  Earl Winterton: Yes, Sir, but I am afraid there would be a real danger of interfering with the sleep of the general population if music were played by loud speakers throughout the night.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    SUPPLY.
    Mr. J. Griffithsasked the Secretary for Mines, whether, having regard to the institution of a rationed supply of coal, he is considering the advisability of increasing the supply of coal by securing the reopening of closed pits where possible; and whether he can make a statement on the matter.
    The Secretary for Mines (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd): I am in consultation with the Mining Association and the Mineworkers' Federation of Great Britain as to the best means of securing an adequate supply of coal during the war.
    Mr. Griffiths: Will the hon. Gentleman in the meantime make a statement that it is undesirable at this stage that pits should be closed, as some are threatened to be closed and there are tens of thousands of skilled miners who are mystified at coal being rationed?
    Mr. Lloyd: I should like notice of that question.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: When the hon. Gentleman is considering the problem of reopening coal mines will he bear in mind the depressed patches of the Lancashire coalfield?
    Mr. Thorne: Is it the intention of the Department to cut down the supply which is now being allowed to gas undertakings?
    Mr. Lloyd: I shall be glad if the hon. Member will put that question down.

    COAL ACT, 1938.
    Mr. Storeyasked the Secretary for Mines whether it is intended to postpone the operation of the Coal Act, 1938, on account of the present emergency.
    Mr. Lloyd: The Valuation procedure under the Coal Act, 1938, has necessarily been suspended and a considerable proportion of the staff of the Coal Commission are employed on emergency work in the Mines Department and other Government Departments. A part of the work of the Coal Commission will require to be carried on, but as to the remainder of the work I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

    EVACUATION.
    Mr. Parker,asked the Minister of Health whether any general standard of accommodation has been laid down for evacuees in reception areas; and whether children can be removed from unsuitable dwellings.
    The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot):The standard generally observed in billeting evacuated persons is on the basis of one person per habitable room. It may have been necessary to exceed this standard as a temporary measure but redistribution from overcrowded districts is now taking place. Local authorities in the receiving areas have been instructed to set up welfare committees to supervise the general welfare of evacuated children and see that they are not left in homes found to be unsuitable.
    Mr. Parker: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider placing the control of the activities in connection with evacuees in the reception areas into the hands of the county councils as many of the smaller authorities have not the resources for looking after them properly?
    Mr. Elliot: At the moment I should be unwilling to introduce any new reorganisation of the machine because it might throw confusion into its working. It is working under a great strain at present and we need to examine it in the light of experience.
    Mr. Pritt: When the right hon. Gentleman says one person per habitable room, is that on the basis of two children of various ages counting for one as in the overcrowding regulations?
    Mr. Elliot: It is on the standard of the overcrowding regulations.
    Mr. Parkerasked the Minister of Health whether any co-ordination has taken place in arranging military billeting and the housing of evacuees in the reception areas, and, if not, whether care can be taken to see that evacuees are removed from towns which may reasonably be considered to be military objectives?
    Mr. Elliot: Steps have been taken to ensure that the arrangements made for the reception of evacuated persons should not interfere with military billeting requirements and vice versa. The relatively limited amount of accommodation available makes it impossible to avoid sending evacuated persons to towns in which troops are also billeted, but all the areas selected for reception are believed to offer a much better chance of safety than the areas from which the evacuated persons have been removed.
    Mr. R. Robinsonasked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the maintenance allowance for evacuated children is proving inadequate; and whether he will consider increasing it?
    Mr. Elliot: My information is that there is no general feeling that the allowances payable to householders for evacuated children are inadequate. It has been represented to me that there are certain anomalies in the principle of a flat rate, and I am having this looked into.
    Sir Arnold Wilson: Will my right hon. Friend make it clear that the maintenance arrangement does not include a free meal for the father and mother on Sunday when they are visiting their children?
    Mr. Parkerasked the Postmaster-General whether arrangements will be made to allow one free post weekly either way between parents and evacuated children, in view of the heavy extra expense caused families by the evacuation?
    The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Mabane): I regret that the difficulties involved would make it impracticable to operate such a concession. Moreover, if such a postage concession were granted similar claims would be received from other groups who feel that they are equally entitled to special consideration. The Post Office could not undertake the task of discriminating between such claims.

    GIRL'S DETENTION, BROCKHALL INSTITUTION.
    Mr. Kirbyasked the Minister of Health, whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Miss Annie Moye, who is detained in the Brock hall certified institution; what consideration of her case by the visitors and by the medical officer which was due in the June and September quarter of this year has taken place; and on what ground this girl is still being detained.
    Mr. Elliot: This patient was dealt with by an order made on the 31st August, 1938, under Section 8 of the Mental Deficiency Act, 1913. The case has now been reviewed under the terms of Section 11 of that Act, and the statutory reports and certificate by the visitors and the medical officer of Brockhall Institution indicate that the girl is feeble-minded and a proper person to be detained in her own interest in an institution. The necessary continuation order will, therefore, be made by the Board of Control, authorising her detention for a further period of one year, at the end of which time her case will again be considered.

    YOUNG PERSONS (EDUCATION AND RECREATION).
    Miss Rathboneasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, whether he is aware that the problem of the leisure of the adolescent is becoming acute in London and other evacuated areas, owing to temporary unemployment, dark evenings, and absence of parents from the home, and that no gathering of persons is allowed in these areas except in licensed premises; and whether he will consider recommencing educational and recreational classes under the local authorities in various available buildings, with due regard to the proximity of suitable air-raid shelters.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): My noble Friend is aware of the conditions referred to, and notice will be given in the immediate future authorising under certain conditions the opening, in evacuation areas, of technical institutions, clubs and the like in order to make provision for the adolescent.
    Sir P. Harris: Will the hon. Gentleman consider getting out a scheme for the encouragement of drama and theatre entertainments of a suitable character for educational and entertainment purposes?
    Mr. Lindsay: All these and a great many other considerations will be borne in mind in dealing with the question of the education of young people.
    Sir A. Wilson: Will my hon. Friend interpret the word "technical" very widely? The question is educational, and the word "technical" will not cover very many desirable institutions in London.
    Mr. Lindsay: I said in my answer "technical institutions, clubs and the like," and that is meant to include every kind of provision for young people between 14 and 18 to help in their education and recreation.
    Sir A. Wilson: Does that cover adults from 18 upwards like the working men's college and evening institutes?
    Mr. Lindsay: Evening institutes, certainly. The question deals with adolescents. The provision for adults is a separate question which is being examined at the present moment.
    Mr. Creech Jones: Is it proposed to alter the adult education regulations?
    Mr. Lindsay: It is not proposed at the moment, but I take it that a great many regulations will have to be altered in the course of the next year.
    Miss Rathbone: Can the hon. Gentleman give us any idea of the date when the reopening will take place?
    Mr. Lindsay: I would rather not give an exact date, but the matter is being examined.

  TRANSPORT.

    MOTOR VEHICLES (SPEED, HOURS OF DARKNESS).
    Sir Joseph Nallasked the Minister of Transport whether he will impose, by order, a uniform 20 miles per hour speed limit for all vehicles during the hours of darkness in all built-up and urban areas?
    The Minister of Transport (Captain Wallace): To those who drive with any regard to their own safety or that of others, black-out conditions in themselves
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    impose severe restrictions on speed. If any person drives at a speed which is dangerous in all the circumstances, he can be convicted of dangerous driving, and I should prefer to rely on these provisions rather than upon a reduced general limit of speed.
    Sir J. Nall: Does not my right hon. and gallant Friend realise that there is great danger at the present time, because a great many drivers are not driving with the care which he has indicated?
    Captain Wallace: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. All I say is that I do not think the imposition of a general limit of 20 miles an hour in built-up areas would achieve the object we both have in mind.
    Dr. Haden Guest: Does not the right hon. and gallant Member think that in many black-out areas 20 miles an hour would be a very dangerous speed?
    Captain Wallace: I think it is far better to deal with it in the way I have suggested.

    IMPREST VEHICLES (ROAD LICENCE FEES).
    Sir J. Nailasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the refund of road-vehicle licence fee due to owners whose vehicles are purchased by imprest can be made effective as from the date of imprest instead of the last day of the month?
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): This question is being carefully considered, and I hope that an announcement will be made on the subject shortly.

  FISH DISTRIBUTION.
  Sir J. Nallasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he can now make any statement as to the re-organisation of the arrangements for control of the distribution of supplies of fish through the Manchester fish market?
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. W. S. Morrison): The scheme of control of fish is at present under review, and I am not in a position at present to add to the statement which I made during the course of the Debate on 13th September.
  Mr. Grenfell: Has the right hon. Gentleman had representations from the industrial valleys of South Wales, where there has been a serious shortage of fish for some time, and, having regard to their inaccessibility, will he make special arrangements to see that fish is sent to them?
  Mr. Morrison: Yes, Sir, the conditions in that district were brought to my notice, and I am dealing with the matter as one of urgency.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward:Is my right hon. Friend aware that since the fish trade in Hull was reorganised under the authority of his Department the conditions there are just chaotic?
  Mr. Morrison: I am aware that there have been complaints with regard to Hull in particular. The matter has been aggravated there by the requisitioning of a very large number of trawlers.
  Sir J. Nall: Was not the chaotic state of affairs clearly indicated in the Debate the other day and no steps have so far been taken to mitigate them? We are now entering upon another week of chaos while the Minister goes on considering it. Can he not suspend the scheme in the meantime?
  Mr. Morrison: No, Sir, I cannot agree that no improvement has taken place in the position. A great deal of improvement has taken place, and I am very anxious to put a proper scheme into operation as soon as possible. The course which the hon. Member recommends would not be in the public interest at the present time.
  Mr. Mathers: Can the Minister say when he will be able to make the position definite?
  Mr. Morrison: I do not wish to pin myself down to a date, but it will be as early as possible.
  Mr. Thorne: Has the Minister any power to regulate supplies because he will be aware that many thousands of people have fish and potatoes for lunch and supper, and if he will see that the fish fryers get their share we shall be much obliged?
  Mr. Morrison: I am aware of the importance of fried fish to large sections of the people, and that part of the scheme is being specially reviewed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr Arthur Greenwood: May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury whether he can state the business of the House on its resumption next Wednesday?
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson): On Wednesday, 20th September, the House will meet at 2.45 p.m. The Adjournment of the House will be moved immediately after Questions, and the Prime Minister will make a general statement. We shall then consider the Possession of Mortgaged Land (Emergency Provisions) Bill, and the Government hope it will be possible to take it through all its stages. It is expected that the House will sit on Thursday, 21st September.
Sir Archibald Sinclair: Not on Friday?
Captain Margesson: We shall have to see. I cannot say for certain.
Mr. Graham White: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give any indication of when the Supplementary Budget will be introduced?
Captain Margesson: No, Sir, I am not in a position to-day to make a statement.
Mr. Loftus: In view of the great inconvenience caused to the staff of this House, could the Patronage Secretary arrange for the House to rise not later than 8 o'clock every evening?
Captain Margesson: I am afraid it is outside my powers to arrange what time the House rises, but I think all hon. and right hon. Members realise the difficulties of the staff.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT [MONEY].
  Resolution reported,
  " That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to confer on the Minister of Labour powers with respect to the control of employment during the present emergency, and for purposes connected with the matter aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the expenses incurred for the purposes of the said Act by the said Minister."
  Resolution agreed to.

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Colonel CLIFTON BROWN in the Chair.]

  CONTROL OF EMPLOYMENT BILL.

    CLAUSE I. — (Control of Employment.)
    11.32 a.m.
    The Minister of Labour (Mr. Ernest Brown): I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, after "Labour," to insert "and National Service."
    This Amendment follows upon the Order-in-Council which makes the Minister of Labour the Minister of Labour and National Service.
    Amendment agreed to.
    11.33 a.m.
    Mr. David Grenfell: I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, at the end, to insert:
    " Provided that before making an order under this Sub-section the Minister shall refer a draft of the order proposed to be made to a committee appointed by him, consisting of a chairman and equal numbers of members representing, respectively, organisations of workers and organisations of employers which appear to him to be concerned; and the Minister may pay to the chairman of any such Committee as aforesaid such remuneration as the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury, determine."
    This Amendment, which stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and other Members, is the main Amendment to the Bill. It is the Amendment which the Minister kindly consented to accept some 10 days ago. It has now been put into its final form, and I wish to say that we very much appreciate the way in which the Minister has responded to the natural request for assurances by Members on this side in particular and, I am sure,
    908
    by many Members on the other side, too. It is now proposed that the Minister shall refer any Draft Order which he proposes to issue to a Committee appointed by him consisting of a chairman and equal numbers of members representing respectively organisations of workers and organisations of employers which appear to him to be concerned. The employers' organisations are in existence, and the workmen's organisations are in existence in the form of trade unions, and they are accustomed to meet regularly to discuss matters concerning their industries, but in this particular regard the Minister is making an innovation. He will refer to the Committee any Order which he proposes to bring in and that is a very valuable innovation, because it will ensure that any possible grievances may be anticipated, and as all the relevant information will be open to the Committee the Minister will then draft his Order with a full knowledge of the facts gleaned in as impartial a way as possible. There is another part of the Amendment which declares that the Minister may pay to the chairman of such a committee such remuneration as may be determined, with the approval of the Treasury. The Minister may require to appoint a chairman who is not a salaried person, a quite independent person who will act in an independent way on this Committee, and I wish to say that I hope the Minister will not oppose this proposal.
    11.35 a.m.
    Mr. Mander: I cordially support this Amendment, which makes the Bill very much better than otherwise would be the case, but there is one question about which I am not clear. The position is perfectly satisfactory in so far as there are trade union and employers' organisations throughout industry, but, unfortunately, there are cases where the workers are not organised in any union. I greatly deplore that they are not in any union. It will appear from the wording of the Bill that in such cases the workers' points of view will have no opportunity of being considered, and I would ask the Minister whether it is contemplated that in a case of that kind representatives of the workers concerned will be appointed, to include members of the unions to which those workers might belong if they choose and to which, in all probability, they will belong after effective service has been rendered to them in this way. If that cannot be

    909
    done, does the Minister select persons who may be taken in a sense as the representatives of those workers so that their case may be considered? It is possible that there are employers who are not organised, but I am concerned now only with the workers. I am sure that the Minister will appreciate that there is a point to be met and I should be very glad if he would indicate in what manner it is proposed to deal with it.
    Mr. Jagger: Would the Minister give some kind of indication of the qualifications of the Chairman? Is it intended that he shall be a legal man? In what other ways are these chairmen to be qualified?
    Mr. E. Brown: I made clear to the House yesterday the intention of this Amendment, so I need do no more now than answer the questions which have been put. I am obliged to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) for his kind observations. In reply to the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) I would point out that where there is no organisation in a particular industry we shall find out to whom it will be best to refer these matters. We shall have a general discussion with the Trade Union Congress, or the organisation which appears to be representative.
    Mr. Mander: Even if the workers do not intend to belong to the union.
    Mr. Brown: The issue is not whether the men concerned belong to the union or not, but the order which it is proposed to make. The only way to get the order discussed is to do what we propose to do here, which is to put the responsibility upon the shoulders of those who can exercise responsibility. In regard to the chairman, we have nothing in mind except that he must be a man of absolute independence and a capable man acceptable to the Government and both sides, a man in whom the country can have trust. He will exercise his judgment in these matters.
    Amendment agreed to.
    11.39 a.m.
    Mr. E. Brown: I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, at the end, to insert:

    " (2) The Minister shall not, by virtue of any order made under this Section, refuse consent to the engagement or re-engagement of an employéunless he is satisfied that an
    910
    opportunity of suitable alternative employment is available to the employé; and, when he refuses consent, he shall notify to the employéany opportunity which he considers suitable, and the employémay appeal to the court of referees constituted under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1935, which acts for the district in which he resides, and if that court is satisfied that no such opportunity as aforesaid was available to him, the court shall allow the appeal, and accordingly the consent of the Minister shall be deemed to have been given as from the date of the decision of the court.

    (3)Where the appeal of an employéis allowed under the last foregoing Sub-section, the court shall, in accordance with regulations made by the Minister with the consent of the Treasury, award to the employécompensation in respect of any loss occasioned to him by reason of the refusal against which the appeal was brought, and such compensation shall be paid as part of the expenses of the Minister under this Act.

    (4)The regulations made under this Section shall make provision as to the compensation which may be awarded under the last foregoing Sub-section and as to the assessment of such compensation, and the regulations shall in particular provide for securing that benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1935 to 1939, shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded."

    I am moving this Amendment instead of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) because it is a matter concerned with finance. I intend to add nothing to what I said yesterday except that the Amendment carries out the agreement which has been arrived at. I think the House will be glad to accept it, as it was agreed to yesterday.
    11.40 a.m.
    Mr. Aneurin Bevan: Is there any provision in the Amendment by which a workman can appeal against a decision by an employer? Suppose it is the employer who acts and who says: "I dismiss this workman for a variety of reasons," which, in the opinion of the workman may not be reasonable. A limitation is imposed upon an employé"; I cannot satisfy myself that a limitation is placed also upon the actions of employers.
    Mr. Brown: The limitation upon the action of the employer is the limitation in the Bill, which does not deal with a situation such as that raised by the hon. Member. It is not meant to do so. I can imagine that if I had had anything about that matter in the Bill it might have led to a great deal more controversy

    911
    than we have already had. That matter must be settled by the normal machinery.
    Mr. Bevan: I know, but the right hon. Gentleman has said that there is a limitation upon the employéIf an employétries to transfer himself from one part of industry to another, the Ministry may say, "No, you ought not to do so." He can appeal against that. But an em-ployécannot appeal against dismissal by the employer. I realise from my own trade union experience that you do not want too much legislation in these matters. The employéwill have the protection of his trade union. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the trade unions' power against employers is ultimately that of invoking the right to strike. That is a power which we are anxious not to invoke in the present circumstances. I should have thought it would have been desirable to put a limitation upon employers.
    11.43 a.m.
    Mr. James Griffiths: I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman would explain one point in Sub-section (4) of this Amendment. It says:
    " The regulations made under this Section shall make provision as to the compensation which may be awarded under the last foregoing Sub-section and as to the assessment of such compensation, and the regulations shall in particular provide for securing that benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1935 to 1939, shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded."
    There will, obviously, be a time lag between the appeal and the case being heard. Is the man concerned to be entitled to unemployment pay in the meantime?
    Mr. Brown: We may be sure that the arrangements will be that, if a man has not received his money he will have benefit if he is otherwise entitled, up to the time that he does receive his compensation.
    Mr. Viant: Assuming that a man is paid during the period of appeal and that he loses his appeal, what will be the position in that case?
    Mr. Brown: I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that point. We shall discuss all these regulations with the appropriate bodies and the hon. Member
    912
    may be sure that all these points will be brought up and gone into, so that we may see that justice is done.
    Sir Stafford Cripps: May I draw the Minister's attention to the last few words of the Amendment:
    " benefit … shall not be payable in respect of which such compensation has been awarded."
    Those words seem to me to mean absolutely nothing.
    Mr. Brown: We received the Order Papers very late this morning, and I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Member for pointing this out. Perhaps I may be allowed, with the permission of the Chairman of the Committee, to move an Amendment to put it right.
    Committee signified assent.
    Mr. Brown: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 18, to leave out from "1939" to the end, and to insert:
    " shall not be payable in respect of any period in respect of which such compensation has been awarded."
    Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: I take it that the words "shall not be payable "will not preclude the man from receiving benefit?
    Mr. Brown: No, Sir.
    Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
    11.46 a.m.
    Mr. Duncan: There is one point that I wish to raise. It refers to the position of the Press, particularly the local Press in the country, in regard to the acceptance of advertisements. Sub-section 1 (a) says that an employer shall not "publish any advertisement." It is quite clear that if he publishes a notice on a factory gate the Press is not concerned, but if he publishes an advertisement in the local paper the Press may be liable. The local Press at the moment are having great difficulties in getting paper and are suffering through the loss of advertisements, and if they have, in addition, to search the columns of the "Ministry of Labour Gazette" in order to see what forms of labour are covered by regulation, it seems

    913
    unfair. I hope that my right hon. Friend, if he cannot amend the Bill in another place to cover this point, will give some assurance that the Press will not be held liable, at any rate for what they do inadvertently.
    11.48 a.m.
    Mr. Rhys Davies: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that in recent months employers doing contract works for the Government have not advertised for labour in this country, but have advertised for Irish labour in Irish newspapers. I wonder whether the order will include some provision to prevent that.
    11.49 a.m.
    Mr. E. Brown: I shall have to consider that point in making the order, but I would point out that the situation now is not quite the same as before. As the hon. Member knows, there has been a movement from England to Ireland in recent months. In reply to the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for North Kensington (Mr. Duncan), I would explain, first, that the words follow the form used in other Acts of Parliament, which have worked not unreasonably. The point he raises will arise only if the Minister acts unreasonably. I can give the assurance that there is no intention to act unreasonably. I will look into the point, but I do not see at the moment any way in which I can amend the Bill without changing the whole principle.
    Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    CLAUSE 4—(Provisions as to orders.)
    Mr. E. Brown: I beg to move, in page 3, line 33, after "order," to insert "or regulation."
    This Amendment is consequential on the fact that we have, in the Amendments which have been agreed to, given power to make regulations.
    Amendment agreed to.
    11.52 a.m.
    Mr. Grenfell: I beg to move, in page 3, line 35, after "Parliament", to insert:
    " and together with any such order there shall be laid before Parliament a copy of any report made by a committee constituted
    914
    in accordance with the provisions of this Act which has been made within such time as may have been notified in the committee by the Minister at the time of the reference."
    This is an important Amendment, and I understand the Minister has no objection to it. This would put the House in possession of any information upon which orders are to be made. The committee will report to the Minister, and the Minister will be responsible for submitting a copy of the report to the House. We have stressed the need for the maintenance of the utmost confidence in the minds of those who represent labour in this country. If this Amendment is agreed to, Members of all parties will be able to scan that information and see exactly what is to be done, what is the basis upon which an Order has been issued, and what is the scope of the order itself.
    11.53 a.m.
    Mr. Mander: This is a very valuable-Amendment. It will be most useful to have this information laid before the House on these occasions. I notice, however, that the Amendment says that the report shall be laid:
    " within such time as may have been notified to the committee by the Minister at the time of the reference."
    Does that mean that if for any reason—perhaps through no fault of the committee—they are not able to complete their proceedings within the time, no such report shall be laid before the House?
    Mr. E. Brown: We want to make sure that it comes within the time allowed.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Further Amendments made:
    In page 3, line 35, after "order, insert" or regulation."
    In line 41, after "order," insert "or regulation."
    In page 4, line 1, after "order," insert "or regulation."
    In line 4, at the end, insert "or regulation." —[Mr. E. Brown.]
    Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Remaining Clauses ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    NEW CLAUSE. —(Saving for engagements effected in accordance with trade union arrangements.)
    Where the engagement or re-engagement of employees by employers is effected in accordance with arrangements made, whether before or after the commencement of this Act, between an employer or any organisation of employers and a trade union, being arrangements approved by the Minister, and in accordance with such directions, if any, as may be given by the Minister with respect to the operation of the arrangements, any provisions of an order made under subsection (i) of section one of this Act having effect by virtue of paragraph (b) of that subsection shall not apply to the engagement or re-engagement. —[Mr. Grenfell.]
    Brought up, and read the First time.
    11.56 a.m.
    Mr. Grenfell: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
    This Clause is introduced to provide for the continuation of the well-established custom of the regulation of the entry into employment by the trade unions and the employers. Many trade unions have made that provision, which has proved highly satisfactory, and they are anxious to retain it. It is one of the conditions of our support of this Bill that this provision should be made plain. The employers have no objection to it, and I do not think that this House would have any objection to the continuation of a practice which makes for peace and efficiency in the manning and staffing of various industries. I understand that a very small proportion of the bulk of employed labour in this country will come under this arrangement, but it is deemed to be valuable in the cases where it applies. I am moving this new Clause with the consent, I understand, of organised labour and of employers.
    11.57 a.m.
    Mr. Graham White: I believe that there will not only be no objection to this Clause, but that it is generally desirable that such a provision should be continued. I take it that it will cover all the arrangements which have been working satisfactorily for some time past. I suppose it does not preclude the practice, which has grown up, and which is beneficial in some directions, of employment exchanges working on lists supplied by employers, and sometimes even by trade unions. These lists will enable a short cut to be taken with great convenience to the men who will be employed.
    11.58 a.m.
    Mr. E. Brown: The Bill not only does not preclude that, but it goes further and says:
    " Arrangements made, whether before or after the commencement of this Act."
    It does not merely cover all arrangements which work harmoniously now, but all similar arrangements in future which may develop as time goes on. If there is development of this very desirable practice, it will be automatic.
    Mr. J. Griffiths: In the mining industry an arrangement exists between the two sides in the industry, and I should like to know whether that will come under the provision?
    Mr. E. Brown: Certainly.
    Question "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.
    Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.

  TITLE.
  Mr. E. Brown: I beg to move, in page 1, after "Labour," to insert "and National Service."
  This Amendment is consequential on previous Amendments.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  12 n.
  Mr. Buchanan: Although it does not relate directly to this Bill, I hope that in the special circumstances I shall be allowed to raise a point arising out of a remark made by the hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) yesterday, with which I am in complete agreement. I refer to the tendency at the present time among the new group of officials to be bureaucratic, standoffish and almost unapproachable. I, like almost every Member of this House, have had contact with employment exchanges, and I have found the officials sympathetic and easily accessible, but I am sorry to say that I am not finding anything like that now, but rather a tendency to be met by a refusal at the hands of people who really have no right to adopt such an attitude.

  917
  I am not making any general charge, but 1 would like the Minister to do what the Postmaster-General does, namely, to ask his officials to be less officious. I know that many of them are overworked and under a great strain, and I am prepared to make allowances for that, but the Minister should see to it that, in their new-found posts, officials should not regard themselves as little fellows "drest in a little brief authority" and refuse access.
  12.2 p.m.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: I support what the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has said. Our lives are now becoming controlled and regulated to a degree of which we had not previously dreamed. This Bill involves an enormous amount of control of the lives of our people, and I press upon the Minister that very great care should be taken and exercised in the choice of officials. I know that they have a lot of work to do, and that a good deal of it will be new work. There will be misfits and mistakes and a great deal of interference. Workmen resent outsiders coming in and trying to put them in their place. A great deal of this control is very necessary, but I hope the Minister will bear in mind that, when new officials are appointed under a scheme of this kind, they shall be men who are experienced as far as possible in the kind of work they will have to do. I hope that he will pay some attention to their personal nature and to the methods of approach in the appointment of inspectors and all the rest of these bureaucrats.
  Mr. MacLaren: State Socialism.
  Mr. Griffiths: We cannot leave the people in the hands of those who own the wealth. We must come inside and help to control it. If that is necessary in crisis time, it cannot be very bad in normal times. I hope that the Minister will exercise his influence and take full note of the fact. This is a very difficult matter and will interfere with our people in many vital ways. I trust that the Minister will—in fact, I am sure he will—pay attention to the words that have been uttered by hon. Members on this side of the House, that if this thing is to be a success he must obtain the good will of the workers of this country. I hope that he will impress that fact upon all his officials.
  12.4 p.m.
  Mr. E. Brown: I readily respond, and I am sorry that the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) has noted any change. I shall do all in my power, and I am sure that the headquarter's staff of the Ministry of Labour will do all in their power, to see this sort of thing does not occur. I will look at it myself and try and make it very clear that there ought not to be any change in attitude. Hon. Members were very good to say that officials were working under extraordinary stress. They have had during the last year two additional pieces of work placed upon their shoulders, and I think the House will admit that they have done the work with great devotion and skill. Members of Parliament sometimes get irritable.
  Mr. J. Griffiths: Not without cause.
  Mr. Brown: Sometimes it is without cause and sometimes without sufficient cause, which is not quite the same thing. I can assure hon. Members that it will be my endeavour to see that this work is administered in such a way that those who have to carry out this difficult job will not act as men "drest in a little brief authority," but, as they have always done, as officials who regard themselves as servants of the public and, more than that, as friends and public advisers of those who come within the ambit of their work.
  I may add that there is no likelihood of the appointment of a number of new officials. It has been arranged, as I explained on the First Reading of the Bill, that, subject to any enlargement of staff that may be necessary later, we shall use the present inspectors who have a knowledge of work under the Mines Act, the Trade Boards Act, the Insurance Act and the Factories Act, and who are accustomed to deal with employers and workmen in their various spheres. If and when the times comes that the new orders become so many that we have to add to the staff, I give the assurance that I will bear fully in mind, in the appointments made, the points that have been raised to-day.
  12.7 p.m.
  Mr. Bevan: The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that what we are attempting to do to-day is to raise a general rather than an individual complaint. While we have addressed our remarks to

  919
  the Minister of Labour, they are intended to cover a somewhat wider field. There has grown up in the last few weeks a very great deal of irritability at what is happening, and it is causing the inevitable reaction. I hope, therefore, that what has been said by my hon. Friends will be very carefully noted not only by the Ministry of Labour but by other Government Departments. We know in this House how Ministers in the last fortnight have had a particularly easy time in one respect. All that they have had to do has been to stand at the Box and mumble: "abacadabra, we are in a state of war, and this must be done." Then all tongues are silent. I am not saying that there is a tendency on the part of Ministers to abuse the position, but I am afraid it is true of officials outside that they expect private citizens to bear burdens which are sometimes quite unreasonable, and to answer criticisms merely by appealing to the national emergency. That can easily be abused. Therefore, I hope that we shall not have a lot of petty irritations created which may give rise to serious trouble.
  Our experience very often is that an industrial dispute is not really caused by the incident that starts it. The incident
  920
  is symbolical of a large number of petty incidents that have gone before, the atmosphere becomes inflamed and embittered, and it is impossible for people to look rationally at the particular incident that has caused the dispute. I hope that the newly-born officials will realise that not merely have they to carry out their duties, but that they have to carry them out in a proper way in their relations with those with whom they come into contact. I hope that these little homilies will be taken seriously to heart by those who are "drest in a little brief authority," otherwise they may call down upon themselves cyclones of wrath which they may not be able to meet.
  Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.
  ADJOURNMENT.
  Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn till Wednesday next." —[Captain Waterhouse.]
  Adjourned accordingly at Ten Minutes after Twelve o'clock till Wednesday next, 20th September.