§ 10.48 p.m.
§ Mr. SilvermanI beg to move, in page 15, line 12, at the end, to insert:
(2) An employer shall not be deemed to have discharged his obligations under this Section unless the person reinstated in employment with him as this Section requires is allowed to retain, that employment for a period not less than the period during which he was employed by that employer before being called up for service under this Act, or for three months, whichever period be the greater:Provided that it shall be a defence to any proceedings under this Sub-section that the person so employed was dismissed for serious and wilful misconduct.I suppose that there is no part of the Bill on which there has been more unanimity than there is in the desire of hon. Members to ensure that the men who are called up under the Bill shall not lose their employment when they return to civil life. I think I am right in saying that hon. Members in all parts of the House, no matter what may be their views with regard to other aspects of the matter, are agreed that whatever steps can be taken to secure that, shall be taken. I have moved this Amendment in order to do something to make the undertaking in the Bill something more than an empty form of words. I assure hon. Members that if the Clause is left as it is now, there will be no protection at all for the great majority of the men 1770 who are called up for military training. The great majority of these men will be employed on contracts of service that are weekly, or less than weekly, and the only obligation which the Clause imposes on the employers is an obligation to reinstate the men on terms of employment that are not less favourable than the terms on which they were employed before they were called up. If those terms were weekly terms of service, they can be completely performed.I assert that there is no manner of doubt about this. They can be completely performed if the man is taken back into his employment, works one week, and at the end of that week is given either one week's notice or a week's wages in lieu of notice. I challenge the Minister, who appeared to doubt it last time, to say whether he still stands by that opinion. I know that the Minister was inclined on the last occasion to meet that point by saying that he had in the Clause taken power to make regulations to prevent evasion. He had indeed done that. I quite grant that he has under the power he has taken complete power to deal with evasion. But the same act cannot be at one and the same time a performance of a contract, a performance of a statutory obligation and also an evasion of that contract of employment, or an evasion of that statutory obligation.
And once it is established that the employer has given the man everything that he was legally entitled to under his terms of service, he has established fulfilment of contract, and no power in the Minister to deal with evasion will help m the least. Indeed, if the Minister were to attempt to deal by regulation with this as though it were a kind of evasion, he would, I am certain, find his regulation declared ultra vires by the courts on the ground that what was here being dealt with was not an evasion of the contract at all. The principle of the Amendment is that you can protect the man only in one way, that is, by securing that when he is reinstated in his employment he shall, subject to good conduct, retain that employment for a reasonable period after he goes back to civil life.
I should be perfectly ready to accept from the Minister an assurance that he would accept that principle at some other stage of the Bill in any form that he would prefer, but I have no doubt—and I think he himself has no doubt now— 1771 that, unless something of the kind is done, this Clause, upon which so many hopes have been built, and which the Government has held out as being a promising security for the man in his employment, is a complete fraud, completely useless, completely illusory. While it would he a very cruel thing to take these men from their jobs and not provide for them to go back to their jobs, it is impossible to pretend that you have afforded them a security. All this elaborate machinery of prosecution, fine and compensation will not catch any employer outside a lunatic asylum.
§ Mr. R. J. TaylorI beg to second the Amendment.
§ 10.55 p.m.
§ Mr. Lennox-BoydI think the hon. Member is unduly pessimistic. I do not believe that this Clause will work out in the way he anticipates it will if his Amendment is not carried. He places no reliance whatever, not only on the very real safeguards in the Clause, but also on the character of the vast majority of employers; I have no reason to believe that they will evade this clause. Nor does the hon. Member pay much regard to public opinion, which will certainly act as a deterrent against employers who try to evade their obligations. If the Amendment were carried, an employer would be obliged
§ to keep a man in employment for three months after his militia service even though he might have been on terms of a week's or a month's or something less than three months' notice. In our view, it would be impossible to do more for the militiaman than to make certain that he does not suffer through being called up for service, and that he is put back into the position in which he would have been if he had never been called up. We cannot go further than that and put him in a preferential position to the great body of wage-earners.
§ Whatever the merits of the hon. Member's proposal, I believe there are very few cases in which it would need to be applied. I do not think that he realises the full strength of Clause 6, not only in Sub-section (1), where reinstatement is provided for, but also in Sub-section (5), which will enable my right hon. Friend to provide for any instances that may occur of employers trying to evade their responsibility. If we are satisfied as a result of experience that fair reinstatement has not been given, my right hon. Friend certainly intends to make regulations which will try and mitigate that evil. I do not believe that in practice the hon. Member's fears will be justified.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 338.
1775| Division No. 141.] | AYES. | [10.59 p.m. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Frankel, D. | Lathan, G. |
| Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford) | Gallacher, W. | Lawson, J. J. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Gardner, B. W. | Leach, W. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Garro Jones, G. M | Leonard, W. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Leslie, J. R. |
| Barr, J. | Grenfell, D. R. | Lunn, W. |
| Batey, J. | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) |
| Benson, G. | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | McEntee, V. La T. |
| Bevan, A. | Groves, T. E. | McGhee, H. G. |
| Bromfield, W. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | McGovern, J. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hall, J. H. (Whiteshapel) | MacLaren, A. |
| Burks, W. A. | Hardie, Agnes | Mainwaring, W. H. |
| Cape, T. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Marshall, F. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hayday, A. | Mathers, G. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Maxton, J. |
| Cocks, F. S. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Messer, F. |
| Collindridge, F. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Milner, Major J. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hicks, E. G. | Montague, F. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) |
| Daggar, G. | Hollins, A. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Dalton, H. | Isaacs, G. A. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Jagger, J. | Noel-Baker, P. J. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Oliver, G. H. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Paling, W. |
| Day, H. | John, W. | Parker, J. |
| Dobbie, W. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Pearson, A. |
| Ede, J. C. | Kirby, B. V. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Kirkwood, D. | Price, M. P. |
| Pritt, D. N. | Smith, T. (Normanton) | Watson. W. McL. |
| Quibell, D. J. K. | Sorensen, R. W. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Richards, R. (Wrexham) | Stephen, C. | Westwood, J. |
| Ridley, G. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| Ritson, J. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) | Summerskill, Dr. Edith | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpath) | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Sexton, T. M. | Thurtle, E. | Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Silverman, S. S. | Tinker, J. J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Simpson, F. B. | Tomlinson, G. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Sloan, A. | Viant, S. P. | |
| Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) | Walkden, A. G. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Smith, E. (Stoke) | Walker, J. | Mr. Anderson and Mr. Adamson. |
| Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees (K'ly) | Watkins, F. C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Cox, H. B. Trevor | Guinness, T. L. E. B. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Craven-Ellis, W. | Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Critchley, A. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Sir D. H. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. | Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page | Hammersley, S. S. |
| Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) | Crooke, Sir J. Smedley | Hannah, I. C. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (So'h Univ's) | Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Cross, R. H. | Harbord, A. |
| Apsley, Lord | Crossley, A. C. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Crowder, J. F. E. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Assheton, R. | Cruddas, Col. B. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Culverwell, C. T. | Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sufton) | Davison, Sir W. H. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | De Chair, S. S. | Hepworth, J. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Denville, Alfred | Herbert, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Balniel, Lord | Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Higgs, W. F. |
| Barrie, Sir C. C. | Dodd, J. S. | Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Doland, G. F. | Hogg, Hon. Q. McG. |
| Beauchamp, Sir B. C. | Donner, P. W. | Holdsworth, H. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Dorman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H. | Holmes, J. S. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Dower, Lieut.-Col. A. V. G. | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Bernays, R. H. | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Howitt, Dr. A. B. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Blaker, Sir R. | Duncan, J. A. L, | Hulbert, Squadron-Leader N. J. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Dunglass, Lord | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Eckersley, P. T. | Hunter, T. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Eden, Rt. Hon. A. | Hurd, Sir P. A. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. |
| Brasken, B. | Ellis, Sir G. | Jarvis, Sir J. J. |
| Braithwaite, J. Gurney (Holderness) | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Jennings, R. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Emery, J. F. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Emmott, C. E. G. C | Keeling, E. H. |
| Broadbridge, Sir G. T. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) |
| Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) |
| Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.) | Errington, E. | Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Kimball, L. |
| Brown, Brig-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. |
| Bull, B. B. | Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Burghley, Lord | Everard, Sir William Lindsay | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. |
| Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. | Fildes, Sir H. | Lancaster, Captain C. G. |
| Burton, Col. H. W. | Findlay, Sir E. | Latham, Sir P. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Fleming, E. L. | Leigh, Sir J. |
| Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. | Fox, Sir G. W. G. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Caine, G. R. Hall- | Fremantle, Sir F. E. | Levy, T. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Furness, S. N. | Lewis, O. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Lindsay, K. M. |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Lipson, D. L. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Gledhill, G. | Little, Sir E. Graham- |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Gluckstein, L. H. | Llewellin, Colonel J. J. |
| Channon, H. | Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. | Lloyd, G. W. |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Goldie, N. B. | Loftus. P. C. |
| Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.) | Gower, Sir R. V. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Chorlton, A. E. L. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Grant-Ferris, Flight-Lieutenant R. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. |
| Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | MacDonald, Rt. Han. M. (Ross) |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Gridley, Sir A. B. | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Colville, Rt. Hon. John | Grigg, Sir E. W. M. | Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) |
| Cenant, Captain R. J. E. | Grimston, R. V. | McKie, J. H. |
| Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk N.) | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Maclay, Hon. J. P. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) | Macnamara, Lieut.-Colonel J. R. J. |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Ramsbotham, H. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Magnay, T. | Rankin, Sir R. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Maitland, Sir Adam | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Mander, G. le M. | Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Markham, S. F. | Remer, J. R. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Marsden, Commander A. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Thomson, Sir J. D. W |
| Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. |
| Maxwell, Hon. S. A. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) | Thornton-Kemsley, C. N. |
| Medlicott, F. | Repner, Colonel L. | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Train, Sir J. |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Rothschild, J. A. de | Tree, A. R. L. F |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Rowlands, G. | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) | Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Mitcheson, Sir G. G. | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. | Turton, R. H. |
| Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. | Russell, Sir Alexander | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Moreing, A. C. | Salmon, Sir I. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Morgan, R. H. (Worcester, Stourbridge) | Salt, E. W. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.) | Samuel, M. R. A. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | Sandeman, Sir N. S. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J | Sandys, E. D. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Munro, P. | Schuster, Sir G. E. | Watt, Lt.-Col. G. S. Harvie |
| Nall, Sir J. | Scott, Lord William | Wayland, Sir W. A |
| Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. | Seely, Sir H. M | Wedderburn, H. J. S. |
| Nicholson, G. (Farnham) | Selley, H. R. | Wells, Sir Sydney |
| Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| O'Connor, Sir Terence J. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Palmer, G. E. H. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Patrick, C. M. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Peake, O. | Smithers, Sir W. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Peat, C. U. | Snadden, W. McN. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Perkins, W. R. D. | Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Peters, Dr. S. J. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Wise, A. R. |
| Petherick, M. | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Pilkington, R. | Spent. W. P. | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld) | Wragg, H. |
| Porritt, R. W. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton | Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.) | York, C. |
| Procter, Major H. A. | Storey, S. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Purbrick, R. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | |
| Radford, E. A. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h) | Lieut.-Colonel Kerr and |
| Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Captain McEwen. |
§ It being after Eleven o'Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 10th May, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given, and the Question necessary to bring to a conclusion the proceedings on the Bill.