ROYAL COMMISSIONS, ETC.

HC Deb 23 February 1939 vol 344 cc646-63

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £6,000 be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and other expenses of Royal Commissions, Committees and special inquiries, etc, including provision for shorthand; and the expenses of surplus stores, etc., liquidation

6.36 p.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Euan Wallace)

I find myself in a not unusual difficulty in presenting this small Estimate. On the one hand I do not want to bore the Committee, and, on the other, I do not want to treat it with discourtesy, but I shall venture to assume that, since no Amendment for the reduction of this very small supplementary sum has been put down, it would not be the wish of the Committee to hear a long explanation from me. Therefore, with the leave of the Committee, I propose to explain very briefly the purposes for which this money is required and to hold myself at the disposal of the Committee to answer any questions which may afterwards be put to me.

The Committee will observe that on page 4 of the Supplementary Estimates, the total sum asked for is £6,000; and that will bring up the total under this Vote for the current year from £40,500 to £46,500. The excess arises solely under one subhead of the Vote, sub- head (L), "Commissions not specifically provided for." Originally the estimate under subhead (L) was for £8,585, including a sum of £4,000 for the Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia-Nyasaland Commission. Since that Estimate came before the House last year three new Commissions have been appointed, and the expenditure on the Southern Rhodesia, Northern Rhodesia and Nyasaland Royal Commission has gone up by £550. We have accordingly, as set out at the bottom of page 4 of the White Paper, £4,550 for the Southern Rhodesia Commission, which was appointed on 9th March last year; £1,800 for the Committee on Pensions for Unmarried Women appointed on 13th April last year, following a vote in this House; £7,000 for the West India Royal Commission appointed last August, for which there will be a further charge in the next financial year; and £700 for the Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation. The Royal Warrant for the Commission on Workmen's Compensation was dated 22nd December, 1938, and this fact accounts for the small sum which will be spent upon it in this financial year. There remains in this Supplementary Estimate the small figure of £535, which comes under the heading of "New and minor Standing Commissions," and in this case means the Civil Service Committee for Northern Ireland appointed in 1921, the Museums and Galleries Standing Commission appointed in 1930 and the Crown Lands Advisory Committee appointed in 1933. All those sums together add up to £14,585, as against an original Estimate of £8,585, thus making the £6,000 excess which I am asking the Committee to vote this afternoon. In a word, the excess is due entirely to the appointment of three new Commissions between the time when the Estimates for the current year were made up and the present date.

6.39 p.m.

Mr. A. Henderson

I wish to draw attention to one specific item, the £700 for the Royal Commission appointed to investigate workmen's compensation. Apparently it is expected that it will be some considerable time before the Commission is in a position to make its final report, and I ask the Minister whether he will be able to indicate to us to-night whether an interim report will be presented to the House within a reasonable time. A fortnight ago there was a discussion on a Motion which I introduced asking for a specific increase in the amounts payable as workmen's compensation. The Government then took refuge behind the fact that this Royal Commission was about to meet. I ask the Minister whether it will be conveyed to the Royal Commission that the House in fact passed a Resolution calling for an interim report. I should have liked to go even further than that, and invite the Minister to say whether the Government will also convey to the Royal Commission that the general sense of the House was in favour of an immediate increase; but in any event I hope the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to tell us that when we authorise the payment of this £700 we shall at any rate have the satisfaction of knowing that an interim report will be forthcoming within a very short time. This £700 is a considerable sum, and I take it it is in respect of expenses to be incurred in the next few weeks. Therefore, I think we are entitled to know that the Commission will get on with this work, that it will not be a case of having a sitting to-day and another sitting in three or six months' time, because if that were going to be the position some of us might have to oppose this payment.

6.42 p.m.

Mr. Ede

I desire to support the views put forward by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) and to say that I hope that we shall at a very early date get an interim report upon the point included in his Motion a fortnight ago. I should like some information about the £1,800 for the Committee on Spinsters Pensions. I think it is a Departmental Committee, and the cost appears to be quite high for a Departmental Committee. Does it include any sum for the fees of actuaries for making calculations for the committee, or have there been any other extraordinary expenses incurred. Could the Financial Secretary also give us any idea when this committee is likely to report.

6.43 p.m.

Mr. Stephen

I rise to support the statement made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) and to ask the Minister to make it known to the Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation that it is the unanimous desire of Members of all parties in the House—it is no question of one party or two parties being interested—that there should be an interim and a speedy report. There is a very general feeling that hardships are being imposed upon many people in connection with workmen's compensation, and we hope for an interim report at an early date. While the sum is £700, I notice that it is a very big Royal Commission, too big, I think, for us to get the expeditious treatment of the subject which one might have expected. I have been greatly interested in the question of spinsters pensions. The committee on that subject was appointed on 13th April, so that it has been sitting for nearly a year, and I hope we shall get some information as to when we shall get its report. Surely the report is now due. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some information on that matter. The position of these spinsters is a very hard one in many ways, and I hope we shall get a satisfactory report from this commission at an early date to permit of legislation being introduced with the object of giving some security to these fellow-citizens of ours, who are enduring a great many hardships.

6.45 p.m.

Mr. Alan Herbert

I am sure that the Financial Secretary will get this Vote without any difficulty, but I should like some assurance that this money is not going to be wasted, as the money spent upon Royal Commissions is, I do not think it is putting it too high to say, nearly always wasted. I am probably the only Member of this Committee who in his election address boldly asserted that when he became a Member of Parliament he would set his face against the habit of Government Departments asking Royal Commissions to find out things which they ought to know already themselves, and which almost everybody else knows. Therefore, I am bound to make my protest now. A Royal Commission is generally appointed, not so much for digging up the truth, as for digging it in and a Government Department appointing a Royal Commission is like a dog burying a bone, except that the dog does eventually return to the bone. In my short experience of Royal Commissions I find that they spend perhaps years going into a question, that public-spirited ladies and gentlemen give their services free in doing that work, that they produce portentous and expensively-printed reports and that nothing happens.

The Deputy-Chairman (Colonel Clifton Brown)

The hon. Member is now discussing Royal Commissions as a whole, but the Supplementary Estimate with which we are dealing refers only to certain Commissions.

Mr. Herbert

With great respect, Colonel Clifton Brown, my argument was that I feared that this particular sum of money might be wasted. I was offering evidence to justify my fear, in obedience to the rule that one should not make general assertions and accusations without offering evidence of them. I was about to refer to what has happened in the past. Take the case of the Royal Commission on Canals and Waterways.

The Deputy-Chairman

It would be quite out of order to go into that now. This discussion can only refer to those Commissions and Committees which are the subject of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Herbert

I apologise if I have erred, and in that case I can only express the hope that my fears will not be justified in the case of these Royal Commissions which are dealt with in the Supplementary Estimate, and which, for all I know, are admirable and worthy bodies, although two of them look to me to be the kind of Royal Commissions which would probably be quoted on a Friday afternoon to stop the passage of a private Member's Bill. They are probably very worthy bodies, but I still ask myself whether their reports, when they have been expensively produced, will not be treated as the reports of other Royal Commissions with which I have been connected in the past, have been treated. Do I understand, Colonel Clifton Brown, that under your Ruling I am not allowed to give examples?

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. Member must not go beyond the Commissions and Committees to which the Estimate refers.

Mr. Herbert

It is constitutionally impossible, Colonel Clifton Brown, that you should be wrong, and it is Parliamentarily impossible for me to suggest that you are, but I feel that if I were in a higher sphere and looking down upon this little incident, I might consider that there was the possibility of the faintest scintilla of injustice attaching to the verdict which you have just pronounced. However, I will not pursue the subject. I wished to make a general protest and, after all, it is impossible to consider any particular, except as part of a whole. I think that is a Euclidean proposition with which everybody will agree and I cannot entirely forget when I look at this list of Royal Commissions the fate of the others to which I was about to refer. I have often felt that it was a wondrous thing that His Majesty should still be able to get the devoted services of public-spirited men and women to act on these Royal Commissions, knowing very well that, in all probability, nothing whatever will be done as a result of their reports. I hope that in the case of these particular Commissions the Financial Secretary will be able to reassure us on that point. Otherwise I shall have to support this Vote very reluctantly, and with the feeling that I am helping to add just one more stone to the mountain of inertia, indecision and delay.

6.51 p.m.

Mr. Silverman

Whether or not the hon. Member who has just spoken is right in his general view on Royal Commissions, I am not entitled to discuss. I would say to him however, that he has an opportunity this afternoon of taking a real step in favour of the view which, apparently, he holds by joining with us in insisting that, at any rate the money which we are asked to vote this afternoon shall not be wasted, and that these particular Commissions shall not result merely in the burying of bones. If any such tendency were shown in the case of the two Commissions to which reference has already been made on this side, I think we can assure the right hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite that the bone would very quickly be dug up again. The point which most of us on this side are concerned to make is that those two Commissions and in particular the Commission on Workmen's Compensation shall be treated as dealing with matters of urgency. I only speak for myself, but I think I represent the views of my hon. Friends when I say that we are prepared to allow the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to have this money only if he on his side is prepared to undertake that the work of those Commissions shall be regarded as a matter of urgency.

It has been said that no doubt interim reports will be made, but there are two comments to be made on that statement. One is that it is essential that the interim reports should not be delayed. The other is with regard to priority among the questions which the Commissions are considering and in relation to which these interim reports are to be made. We wish to stress, for instance, the extraordinary urgency of the question of actual weekly payments and also the question of payments in respect of dependency in accident cases. We ask that these shall be treated as first among the questions on which the Commission on Workmen's Compensation is asked to make an interim report. We ask too that that report shall be made at no distant date. It will not be forgotten that on two not remote, but comparatively recent occasions, the House has been persuaded by the Government to reject proposals for the amendment of the workmen's compensation law, on the plea that a Commission was being set up to inquire into it. The House accepted that view only because they understood that the Commission was being set up not to relegate the matter to some distant future, but because the Government intended that there should be a proper inquiry now into this question, that a report upon it should be made now, and that action should be taken by the Government now to implement that report. Therefore, I ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for an assurance that if we let him have this money pressure will be brought to bear on the Commission to get to work early, to consider first the questions which I have indicated, and to report early, and, further, that an early opportunity will be taken of introducing legislation to end what everybody admits to be a grave injustice on a great number of deserving people.

6.55 p.m.

Captain Wallace

I think I shall be able to satisfy the very reasonable questions of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Kingswinford (Mr. A. Henderson) and the hon. Members for South Shields (Mr. Ede) and Camlachie (Mr. Stephen) in regard to the two Com- missions to which they have referred. As for my hon. Friend the senior burgess for Oxford University (Mr. A. Herbert) I can at any rate assure him that the appointment of these Royal Commissions was in no case the result of such very nefarious ideas as, according to him, occasionally underlie these appointments. I agree with him in one respect. It is remarkable that so many eminent people are prepared from time to time to give devoted service to the often very arduous work of these Commissions and to do so free of charge; but I think my hon. Friend will recognise that that is only another manifestation of a great national characteristic which we find also in the people who give such devoted voluntary service to local authorities and in other ways. My hon. Friend would perhaps agree that the sort of people who serve on these Commissions and the terms under which they operate, constitute the best guarantee of the fact that the Commissions are seriously meant to achieve their purpose in the shortest space of time, consistent with doing their work thoroughly. I do not believe that any hon. or right hon. Gentleman would wish that a Royal Commission should scamp its work or do it badly; we all know the legacy of trouble which may be created by a report which turns out subsequently to have been founded on insufficient or inaccurate information.

Let me turn to the particular Commissions mentioned in the Estimate. I take first the Committee on Pensions for Unmarried Women. I will not go into the circumstances in which that committee was set up or its composition, but I would point out that the committee held public sessions for the taking of evidence on16th, 17th, 29th and 30th June at the Royal Courts of Justice and on the 9th and 10th November at the Niblett Hall, Inner Temple. Having regard to the nature of their inquiry, the committee took the view that verbatim reports of the evidence should be taken and that these minutes of evidence should be published, and the first item in the bill of that Commission is £107 which the Treasury authorised for the taking down and transcribing of that evidence. In addition to their public sessions for the hearing of evidence the committee met in private on 15 occasions to study the evidence and consider their report; the incidental expenditure in connection with those meetings, principally in reimbursing travelling and hotel ex- penses, will amount, it is anticipated, to £232. The remaining sum of £1,461 is due to the fact that the whole-time services of a secretary and assistant secretary have been involved since the beginning of May last, and the services of a shorthand typist since the beginning of last June; in addition, further clerical assistance has been required during three months, making in all £1,461. The total for this Commission is £1,800. I am informed, and I think this is the point in which the Committee are most interested, that the report is in an advanced stage of preparation and it is anticipated that it will be submitted to the Chancellor of the Exchequer early next month.

Mr. Ede

There are no fees for actuaries included in this?

Captain Wallace

No. It simply falls under these three heads, the transcription of the evidence, hotel and travelling expenses, and payment of the permanent staff, plus a certain amount of extra clerical assistance.

The Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation was appointed on 22nd December, 1938. The' staff consists of a secretary, an assistant-secretary, an employment officer, a shorthand typist and the services of a messenger on the days when the Commission sits. It held its first meeting on 13th January last to consider its procedure and the arrangements it would make for the taking of evidence. Public sittings for the hearing of evidence have been arranged for the following dates in the present financial year: 23rd and 24th February—that is to-day and to-morrow—10th,23rd, 24th, 30th and 31st March. The estimated expenditure for this financial year is £700, in respect of the staff that I have mentioned and travelling and subsistence allowances for members of the Commission and witnesses. I fully appreciate the desire of members in all parts of the House for the utmost expedition, but perhaps many of my hon. Friends below the Gangway will consider that the programme that I have read out is a pretty formidable one and it means that members of the Commission, most of whom have other things to do as well, are evidently determined to devote a great deal of their time to it.

I am certain, quite apart from speeches which have been made to-day, which will of course be brought to the Commission's notice, that they are very fully seized of the anxiety with which the House awaits their report. I hope very much that hon. Members opposite will not press for an interim report. Frankly, in view of the terms of reference and the personnel of the Commission, I am sure that they are perfectly well aware of the urgency of the subject and they will be guided as to whether to issue an interim report or not by what they think is best calculated to the formation of a clear and helpful judgment of the whole situation at the earliest moment.

7.3 p.m.

Mr. Benn

I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £10.

I do not think my hon. Friends can regard the right hon. Gentleman's answer on the specific point about workmen's compensation as satisfactory. We should not be asking the Government to press the Commission if the Government would do what they could do very well without any Royal Commission, namely, deal with one or two grievances and hardships which are very well known. They decline to do that and they take shelter behind the appointment of the Commission. Therefore, the only course open to us is to ask them to press the Commission to report on these matters, which hardly require inquiry, in order that something may be done, and that the right hon. Gentleman is not in a position to do. I move a reduction in order not only that we may have an opportunity of expressing our opinion on it, but that the hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. Herbert) may make his general protest.

7.4 p.m.

Mr. Buchanan

On one matter there is no need to await the Commission's report because a commission has already reported upon it. The Holman Gregory Committee reported in favour of an increase of workmen's compensation. Is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman, while examining the general question of a further increase, to implement the report that they already have? The increase already recommended is not very substantial, but the recommendation could be implemented without reflecting on this Commission. Meantime the Commission could examine the whole question again and report on further increases if desired. Surely that is not too much to ask. I fear that there will be no interim report, and we have no guarantee that the Government will act on the final report. They have already rejected the Holman Gregory Committee's report. Governments in the past have intimated to Royal Commissions that they would like an interim report. Is it too much to ask that the Government should say they would like an interim report on the amount to be paid to injured workmen, a question which has been raised even by Members opposite who have occasionally introduced Bills on the subject, and the question of what is an accident in so far as it arises out of work? These issues at least are terribly important and, if the Government cannot see eye to eye with us altogether, let them ask for an interim report on these two issues at least. Some of us feel that, if a commission were appointed to deal with some issue in which economy or cutting down was involved, they would get an interim report there and then. If the Government will not ask for an interim report, effect ought to be given to the Holman Gregory report. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to give effect to this very reasonable request.

7.9 pm.

Mr. George Griffiths

I am bitterly disappointed at the right hon. Gentleman's answer. I well remember that when I first came here my colleagues were pressing for increased benefit for people suffering from disease under the Compensation Acts. The then Home Secretary appointed a Committee. We repeatedly put questions asking him to try to hasten its finding. He went out of office and the present Home Secretary came in.

The Deputy-Chairman

We are discussing this particular Vote. We cannot debate the principle.

Mr. Griffiths

I am sorry that I am offside, but I was only giving that as an illustration to lead up to where I want to get. The Commission on Safety in Mines was appointed in December, 1935, and it reported in December, 1938, and what we are afraid of is that this Commission, of which the Financial Secretary says he cannot hold out any hope that it will issue an interim report——

Captain Wallace

I did not say that at all.

Mr. Griffiths

The right hon. Gentleman did not give us a definite undertaking that he would press for an interim report. There are thousands of men who have been suffering from accidents and from industrial disease for 10 years. A chap met me the other Saturday night as I was coming from a meeting.

The Deputy-Chairman

The hon. Member is going into detail.

Mr. Griffiths

I am trying to bring it to this Commission because the chap was talking about this Commission. He has been having 23s. a week for the last 10 years for himself and his wife and children. He said, "George, I thought we were going to get a Compensation Act through without a Royal Commission. I can see now that I shall be drawing the old age pension before it has reported." He was hoping that his compensation was to be raised.

The Deputy-Chairman

There are two points that can be raised in this Debate. The hon. Member can press for an early report or for an interim one, but he cannot go into details of what might happen.

Mr. Griffiths

If we do not get a more definite answer from the Financial Secretary it is no good for him to beg and pray that we shall not divide. We are pressing for an interim report so that these people shall have some hope. With this Government, on Royal Commissions or anything else, it is jam yesterday and jam to-morrow, but there is never jam for our people to-day. We are asking that the Commission shall be speeded up, and that the increase in compensation shall be a real increase, because, unless the Commission gives us an interim report to that effect, the public assistance committees will have to pay thousands of pounds during the year.

7.15 p.m.

Mr. Tinker

I think we are entitled, when we are asked to vote this money, to put to the Financial Secretary one or two reasons why we should have a quick report from the Royal Commission. The Prime Minister told us that there were certain things which needed to be dealt with, and that the Government were not against dealing with them. We thought that that would mean a quick report, particularly with regard to the amount of compensation and to the payment of immediate benefit to those who had been incapacitated. The statement of the Financial Secretary gives us the impression that we cannot expect an interim report, so that for some considerable time there will be no redress on these outstanding points. I ask for some kind of pledge on this matter. It has been freely stated to-night that, if the desire of Parliament for a quick report were indicated to the Commission, they would act upon it. There is very strong feeling on this matter. I and my colleague here went to seven conferences and pledged ourselves that Parliament would deal immediately with one or two of these outstanding points, and I hope the Financial Secretary will give us some hope to-night that these matters will be dealt with quickly, in view of the needs of the people concerned. These people will be asked to contribute by taxation to the enormous expenditure that is now being called for, and they are saying to us that on these matters they require immediate redress. I do not know of any matter that calls for more immediate concern at the present moment than this matter of workmen's compensation, and I hope the Financial Secretary will give us a satisfactory assurance.

7.18 p.m.

Mr. Dunn

I desire to reinforce the appeal that has been made to the Financial Secretary on this important matter. I do not believe, myself, that it would be desirable to divide on it, and I do not want to be forced into the Division Lobby, although I am quite prepared to vote if we do not get some reassurance. This item itself seems to me to be a very moderate one, but, at the same time, we are entitled to ask the Financial Secretary to reconsider his decision. I do not know of any question that makes a greater appeal to me than that of the injured workmen in all kinds of industry, but particularly in the mining industry, and I should like to give one case which impresses me——

The Deputy-Chairman

I must ask the hon. Member to bear in mind the fact that he cannot, on this Vote, advocate the case of workmen's compensation. He can only discuss the appointment of the Royal Commission for which we are asked to vote this money.

Mr. Dunn

There are many people in this country who are suffering dire hardship in consequence of the smallness of their payments for workmen's compensation, and I really think that the gap between the appeal which was made in this House a fortnight ago and the Royal Commission which is now sitting is so narrow that it could be bridged without any amendment of existing legislation. It is only in the Act of 1925——

The Deputy-Chairman

I am afraid that the hon. Member is getting a little wide of the item of £700 in the Vote.

Mr. Dunn

Then in that case, if no appeal can be made on these grounds, and no appeal can be made for an amendment of the law, I can only agree with my hon. Friends and go into the Lobby against this item in order to record our protest on this important matter.

7.22 p.m.

Captain Wallace

I hope the Committee will allow me to say another word. Quite frankly, I am a little disappointed at the reception which I have met from the other side of the Committee on this Vote. I thought that the reply I gave with regard to this particular Commission was not unhelpful, and certainly not unsympathetic. I pointed out to the Committee that the Royal Commission have already given concrete evidence that they intend to tackle this question, and I hope that on reflection hon. Members opposite, even if they feel bound to make this rather oblique protest by going into the Lobby, will realise that it is not for me to try to tell Sir Hector Hetherington and the very distinguished Royal Commission, composed of representatives of all parties, how they should do their job. Obviously the Commission will be fully seized of to-night's proceedings, but I will most certainly undertake to see that they are brought to their notice. I will undertake, further, to bring particularly to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, on whose recommendation the Royal Commission was appointed, the points made by hon. Gentlemen opposite; but it is impossible for me to give any undertaking on behalf of the Government to accept the Holman Gregory or any other report, or to take any legislative action on the subject. I am simply here to justify, if I can, before this Committee, a Vote of £700 for this particular Commission, and it really would be quite impossible for me to go outside that. I repeat that I will certainly bring to the notice of the Home Secretary the views which have been expressed in this Committee, and I do not for a moment feel that the members of the Royal Commission are not fully seized of the gravity and pathos of some of the cases with which they will have to deal, or of the necessity for expediting their report so far as they can consistently with their primary duty of examining the whole position and making a report which is in consonance with the evidence that is laid before them.

7.25 p.m.

Mr. Benn

Perhaps it would be well to make it clear that we are not doing anything to impede the work of the Royal Commission. I have moved a token reduction, which is our only way of making a protest, and, despite his great courtesy, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman has given us absolutely no satisfaction as regards the demand that has been made. He has told us that this is a powerful Commission, well equipped and with full knowledge of the urgency of the matter, and he said he would say something to the Home Secretary. But the point is that this Government, having refused to legislate without a Commission, now refuse to ask the Commission for an interim report on certain points on which we very nearly succeeded in getting a majority in the House. We have not received satisfaction, and, therefore, must press the matter to a Division.

7.26 p.m.

Mr. Stephen

I would remind the Financial Secretary that there have been precedents. He will perhaps remember that, in the case of the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance, he was one of those who, from this side of the House, kept pressing that recommendations should be made to that Commission to issue an interim report and the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance did issue an interim report on pressure from the Financial Secretary and his colleagues who were then on this side of the House. I do not know that from my own point of view it is a very good precedent. It was a rotten interim report that they gave. But the present Royal Commission on Workmen's Compensation can be very largely guided by the previous Commission as to the importance of something being done immediately.

If the Financial Secretary has any doubt on the matter, I think he should send for the Home Secretary, and I am sure that, if it would help him to avoid a discussion, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorton (Mr. Benn) would alter his Motion to a Motion to report Progress, so as to give an opportunity of sending for the Home Secretary in order that we may have his view as to whether he would be prepared to make this recommendation to the Royal Commission. It is quite unsatisfactory simply to say, "Trust that all will be well, but I myself, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, am not prepared to take the course of intimating to the Royal Commission that the House is anxious for an interim report on this matter." If he cannot take the responsibility for that, he must surely——

Captain Wallace

The hon. Gentleman is not quoting me correctly. All that I said was that I was not prepared to go

Division No. 44.]	AYES.	[7.31 p.m.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)	Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)	Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Adams, D. (Consett)	Hardie, Agnes	Poole, C. C.
Adams, D. W. (Poplar, S.)	Harris, Sir P. A.	Quibell, D. J. K.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)	Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)	Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)	Hayday, A.	Ritson, J.
Ammon, C. G.	Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)	Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.	Henderson, J. (Ardwick)	Seely, Sir H. M.
Banfield, J. W.	Hills, A. (Pontefract)	Sexton, T. M.
Barnes, A. J.	Hollins, A.	Silverman, S. S,
Barr, J.	Hopkin, D.	Simpson, F. B.
Bellenger, F. J.	Jagger, J.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.	Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)	Smith, E. (Stoke)
Benson, G.	Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)	Smith, T. (Normanton)
Broad, F. A.	John, W.	Sorensen, R. W.
Buchanan, G.	Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.	Stephen, C.
Burke, W. A.	Jones, A. C. (Shipley)	Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Cape, T.	Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.	Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Charleton, H. C.	Kirby, B. V.	Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.	Leslie, J. R.	Thorns, W.
Cocks, F. S.	Lunn, W.	Tinker, J. J.
Daggar, G.	Macdonald, G. (Ince)	Tomlinson, G.
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)	McEntee, V. La T.	Viant, S. P.
Debbie, W.	McGhee, H. G.	Westwood, J.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)	MacLaren, A.	White, H. Graham
Ede, J. C.	Marshall, F.	Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Edward, Sir C. (Bedwellty)	Messer, F.	Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.	Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doneaster)	Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Foot, D. M.	Noel-Bakar, P. J.	Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Gardner, B. W.	Oliver, G. H.	Young, Sir R. (Newton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)	Paling, W.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.	Parker, J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)	Parkinsen, J. A.	Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)	Pearson, A.
NOES.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)	Beschman, N. A.	Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. C.	Bennett, Sir E. N.	Campbell, Sir E. T.
Albery, Sir Irving	Blair, Sir R.	Cartland, J. R. H.
Allan, Col J. Sandeman (B'knhead)	Boothby, R. J. G.	Cary, R. A.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.	Boutton, W. W.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)
Aske, Sir R. W.	Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)	Channon H.
Balfour, G. (Hampstead)	Brisses, Capt. R. G.	Chapman, A. (Rutherglan)
Balniel, Lord	Broadbridge, Sir G. T.	Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.	Brooklebank, Sir Edmund	Cook, Captain E. C. (Preston)
Barrie, Sir C. C.	Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)	Colville, Rt. Hon. John
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Nawbury)	Cox, H. B. Trevor
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.	Bull, B. B.	Croft, Bng.-Gen. Sir H. Page
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)	Butcher, H. W.	Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.

to the Royal Commission on behalf of the Government and say to them, "You have got to make an interim report."

Mr. Stephen

You cannot say to the Royal Commission, "You must do so-and-so, but it is not that; it is something less than that." If the Government represent to a Royal Commission, then I have no doubt that the Royal Commission will accede to the request of the Government. That is what we are asking, that the Government should ask them for it, and I have no doubt that the Royal Commission would accede to the request. It is absolutely unsatisfactory as it has been left by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding 5,990, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 95; Noes, 179.

Division No. 44.]	AYES.	[7.31 p.m.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)	Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)	Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Adams, D. (Consett)	Hardie, Agnes	Poole, C. C.
Adams, D. W. (Poplar, S.)	Harris, Sir P. A.	Quibell, D. J. K.
Adamson, Jennie L. (Dartford)	Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.)	Rathbone, Eleanor (English Univ's.)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)	Hayday, A.	Ritson, J.
Ammon, C. G.	Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)	Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.	Henderson, J. (Ardwick)	Seely, Sir H. M.
Banfield, J. W.	Hills, A. (Pontefract)	Sexton, T. M.
Barnes, A. J.	Hollins, A.	Silverman, S. S,
Barr, J.	Hopkin, D.	Simpson, F. B.
Bellenger, F. J.	Jagger, J.	Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.	Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)	Smith, E. (Stoke)
Benson, G.	Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)	Smith, T. (Normanton)
Broad, F. A.	John, W.	Sorensen, R. W.
Buchanan, G.	Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.	Stephen, C.
Burke, W. A.	Jones, A. C. (Shipley)	Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Cape, T.	Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.	Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Charleton, H. C.	Kirby, B. V.	Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.	Leslie, J. R.	Thorns, W.
Cocks, F. S.	Lunn, W.	Tinker, J. J.
Daggar, G.	Macdonald, G. (Ince)	Tomlinson, G.
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)	McEntee, V. La T.	Viant, S. P.
Debbie, W.	McGhee, H. G.	Westwood, J.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)	MacLaren, A.	White, H. Graham
Ede, J. C.	Marshall, F.	Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Edward, Sir C. (Bedwellty)	Messer, F.	Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.	Morgan, J. (York, W.R., Doneaster)	Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Foot, D. M.	Noel-Bakar, P. J.	Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Gardner, B. W.	Oliver, G. H.	Young, Sir R. (Newton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)	Paling, W.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.	Parker, J.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)	Parkinsen, J. A.	Mr. Mathers and Mr. Adamson.
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)	Pearson, A.
NOES.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)	Beschman, N. A.	Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. C.	Bennett, Sir E. N.	Campbell, Sir E. T.
Albery, Sir Irving	Blair, Sir R.	Cartland, J. R. H.
Allan, Col J. Sandeman (B'knhead)	Boothby, R. J. G.	Cary, R. A.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.	Boutton, W. W.	Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)
Aske, Sir R. W.	Braithwaite, Major A. N. (Buckrose)	Channon H.
Balfour, G. (Hampstead)	Brisses, Capt. R. G.	Chapman, A. (Rutherglan)
Balniel, Lord	Broadbridge, Sir G. T.	Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.	Brooklebank, Sir Edmund	Cook, Captain E. C. (Preston)
Barrie, Sir C. C.	Brooke, H. (Lewisham, W.)	Colville, Rt. Hon. John
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Nawbury)	Cox, H. B. Trevor
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.	Bull, B. B.	Croft, Bng.-Gen. Sir H. Page
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)	Butcher, H. W.	Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.
Cross, R. H.	Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.	Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Cruddas, Col. B.	Lamb, Sir J. Q.	Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Davies, C. (Montgomery)	Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.	Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)	Latham, Sir P.	Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
De Chair, S. S.	Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)	Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam)
De la Bère, R.	Leighton, Major B. E. P.	Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Dodd, J. S.	Lewis, O.	Smithers, Sir W.
Doland, G. F.	Lipson, D. L.	Snadden, W. MsN.
Donner, P. W.	Lloyd, G. W.	Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Derman-Smith, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir R. H.	Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Drewe, C.	MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.	Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Duncan, J. A. L.	MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross)	Spens, W. P.
Ellis, Sir G.	Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)	Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
Errington, E.	McKie, J. H.	Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.
Erskine-Hill, A. G.	Manningham-Buller, Sir M	Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales)	Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.	Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Everard, Sir William Lindsay	Marsden, Commander A.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Flaming, E. L.	Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.	Sutcliffe, H.
Fox, Sir G. W. G.	Madlicott, F.	Taskar, Sir R. I.
Furness, S. N.	Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)	Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Fyfe, D. P. M.	Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)	Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
Gledhill, G.	Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)	Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Gower, Sir R. V.	Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.	Tree, A. R. L. F.
Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)	Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)	Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Grant-Ferris, R.	Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)	Turton, R. H.
Gridley, Sir A. B.	Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.	Wakefield, W. W.
Guest, Lieut-Colonel H. (Drake)	Munro, P.	Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)	O'Connor, Sir Terence J.	Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan
Hambro, A. V.	O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh	Ward, Lieut-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hannah, I. C.	Perkins, W. R. D.	Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsand)
Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)	Petherick, M.	Waterhouse, Captain C.
Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.	Pickthern, K. W. M.	Wall, Major G. S. Harvie
Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.	Pilkington, R.	Wayland, Sir W. A.
Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-	Ponsonby, Col. C. E.	Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Hepworth, J.	Raikes, H. V. A. M.	Wells, Sir Sydney
Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.)	Ramsbotham, H.	Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Higgs, W. F.	Reed, A. C. (Exeter)	Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Holdsworth, H.	Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)	Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Holmes, J. S.	Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.	Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)	Wise, A. R.
Horebrugh, Florence	Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)	Womersley, Sir W. J.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)	Ropner, Colonel L.	Wragg, H.
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)	Rosbotham, Sir T.	Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Hunloke, H. P.	Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)	Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Hunter, T.	Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)	Russell, Sir Alexander	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Keeling, E. H.	Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)	Captain Dugdale and Major
Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)	Sandeman, Sir N. S.	Herbert.

Question, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Schedule to the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £6,ooo, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and other expenses of Royal Commissions, Committees, and special inquiries, etc., including provision for shorthand; and the expenses of surplus stores, etc., liquidation.