§
Lords Amendment: In page 11 line 16, leave out Clause 10, and insert new Clause (Apportionment of rent and determination of questions on severance of subsisting leases).
and the lease does not reserve separate rents for the several parts of the premises, the rent reserved by the lease shall be apportioned, and the parts of that rent to be apportioned to the several parts of the premises shall, in default of agreement between the Commission and any other person entitled in reversion immediately expectant on the lease and the lessee, be determined by an arbitrator selected by agreement between the parties, or in default of agreement, by the Lord Chancellor in the case of England or the Lord President of the Court of Session in the case of Scotland.Provided that the arbitrator or the Court, as the case may he, may direct that the Commission shall not be liable to pay any such costs as aforesaid incurred by a person who appears to the Court to have made a
518
reference or application or prosecuted proceedings thereon unreasonably, or to have been guilty of any such unreasonable failure to agree with the Commission or with any other party, or of any such negligence or default, as to disentitle him to payment of those costs, and, if it appears to the Court that the necessity for the determination of the question raised on an application arose in part only in consequence of such a severance as aforesaid, the Court may direct that the Commission shall be liable to pay a proportionate part only of such costs as aforesaid.
(4) A Regional Valuation Board shall cause proper records to be kept of apportionments of rent made by them for the purposes of valuations made by them and of any alteration of any such apportionment made by a referee on a review of a valuation made by them, and any entry in any book or other document kept for the purposes of this Subsection, or a copy thereof upon which is endorsed a certificate purporting to be signed by a person authorised in that behalf by the Board stating that the copy is a true copy, shall in all legal proceedings be evidence of the entry and of the apportionment referred to.
§ 9.55 P.m.
§ The Attorney-GeneralI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This new Clause arises out of the difficulties which were pointed out by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) when the Bill was in this House on the Committee stage. We promised to look into them and if we found difficulties to exist to put them right in another place. The Amendment proposes to substitute new machinery for Clause 10. Both Clauses deal with the case which will arise in a good many transactions in which the interest in the coal and the surface are in the same person. Under the Bill the coal will pass to the Commission and the surface rights will remain with the surface owner. That may arise in respect of the interest under a lease or the interest in reversion. The original machinery in the Bill contemplated that that would necessitate the drawing up of two new leases, the one dealing with the coal rights and the other dealing with the surface rights, and it made provision for that being done.
On consideration of the matter arising from what was said in Committee, we have come to the conclusion that that 519 is unnecessary. There are sections of the Law of Property Act which apply, and where interests contained under one lease are severed recognised principles of law provide for each new landlord; in this case the Commission and the old landlord will have appropriate rights to enforce such of the original corpus of rights as was given to one or the other. Therefore, there is no need to have any document dealing with general right. What is necessary is that in cases in which the rent is not under the original lease apportioned as between the coal interests and the surface interests, there will have to be an apportionment of the rent. The new Clause provides, therefore, not for drawing up a new lease, but simply for the apportionment of the rent. If that cannot be agreed it goes to arbitration and the costs reasonably incurred are to be borne by the Commission because the apportionment has become necessary by reason of the passing of the Act. There is a proviso that the arbitrator may direct that the Commission shall not be liable to pay costs incurred unreasonably, and a provision that the Regional Valuation Board shall keep records of cases in which the Board have themselves made an apportionment. The arbitrator is to have regard to that apportionment but he is not legally bound by it because there may be persons interested in the apportionment whom it is necessary to bring before the Regional Valuation Board. Therefore, it would not be right to bind him formally for all purposes by the apportionment made by the Regional Valuation Board, although in most cases the apportionment made by the Board will be abided by.
§ 10.0 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsThe explanation which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has given is no doubt an accurate explanation of the purpose of this alteration in the Clause and the Schedule as it left this House, but here again I venture to suggest that we see a case of, it is true, a quite small concession, but still a concession, in favour of the landowning interests. Originally, as we find in paragraph 5 of the Fourth Schedule, provision was made with regard to the costs which were reasonably incurred in giving effect to the provisions of the Schedule by a person other than the Commission. 520 The first qualification was that the costs must be reasonably incurred. Then it was only in the case of a mortgagee that the whole of the costs were to be paid by the Commission. In all other cases it was only
as to such part of such costs as may be determined by agreement between the Commission and that person, or in default of agreement by an arbitrator to be selected as aforesaid, to be proportionate to the extent to which the need for the transaction effected under this Schedule arose from the severance of the reversion expectant on the subsisting lease in question resulting from the vesting in the Commission by virtue of this Act of a part of the premises comprised in that lease.Instead of that limited right as regards costs, together with the limitation that they must be reasonably incurred, we find in Sub-section (3) of the new Clause:In the case of every coal-mining lease subsisting on the vesting date in the case of which such a severance as aforesaid is effected as aforesaid, the Commission shall pay the costs reasonably incurred by any person in connection with a reference to arbitration under Subsection (1) of this Section or with any application to the Court that may be requisite for the purpose of determining any question as to the rights or liabilities of any person under the lease that arises in consequence of the severance.That is to say, there may be an application to the court quite outside the arbitration proceedings, and if there is any such reference the costs of it are to be paid by the Commission. There was no such provision in the Bill before. That is an added provision as regards costs which will fall upon the Commission. There may, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, be many such cases, some of which may go to the courts. The number which will go to the courts will depend on who is to pay the costs, and those which go to the courts, if every application to the court is free so far as the parties are concerned—that is to say, that the Commission has to pay—no doubt a large number will go to the courts. If, on the other hand, the parties had to pay their own costs, as they would have had to do when the Bill left this House, comparatively few would go to the courts. This is a direct incitement to give away national money to that most deserving body of people known as lawyers, but it is also putting a burden upon the Commission which had not to be borne by it when the Bill left this House. It is another case—and we are having case after case to-night—where in some little 521 niggling way or another those who are interested as landowners and royalty owners are getting more and more out of national funds in this transaction.Whether it is that the Government do not observe these things, or whether it is that like Lord Nelson on a famous occasion they prefer to put the blind eye to the telescope, I do not know, but they certainly do not seem in these proceedings to be taking up the attitude of guarding the Commission and its finances against these continued depredations by the royalty owners as exemplified in their very efficient representatives in another place. We shall, therefore, oppose this Amendment, not because it is necessarily,
§ as regards the main part of it, any worse than when it left this House but because we believe that in the process of alteration a further concession has been given to the royalty owners and landowners, and that it is going directly to encourage litigation as regards the severance of leases, and the party on this side do not believe in the encouragement of litigation even though they think that deserving class, the lawyers, might get something out of it.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 142.
523| Division No. 276.] | AYES. | [10.7 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Duncan J. A. L. | Llewellin, Colonel J. J. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Dunglass, Lord | Loftus, P. C. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Eastwood, J. F. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's) | Eckersley, P. T. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Apsley, Lord | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Ellis, Sir G. | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Assheton, R. | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | Maclay, Hon. J. P. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Macnamara, Major J. R. J. |
| Beauchamp, Sir B. C. | Errington, E. | Magnay, T. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Maitland, A. |
| Beechman, N. A. | Everard, W. L. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Findlay, Sir E. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Fremantle, Sir F. E. | Marsden, Commander A. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Furness, S. N. | Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. |
| Boyce, M. Leslie | Gledhill, G. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Bracken, B. | Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. | Mellor, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Goldie, N. B. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) | Gower, Sir R. V. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Moreing, A. C. |
| Bull, B. B. | Gridley, Sir A. B. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. |
| Butcher, H. W. | Guest, Maj.Hon.O. (C'mb'rw'll,N.W.) | Nicholson, G. (Farnham) |
| Buller, R. A. | Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Hambro, A. V. | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Harbord, A. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Cary, R. A. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Patrick, C. M. |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Porritt, R. W. |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. | Power, Sir J. C. |
| Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | Procter, Major H. A. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Radford, E. A. |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Hepworth, J. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Higgs, W. F. | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Colfox, Major W. P. | Hopkinson, A. | Ramsden, Sir E. |
| Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Rankin, Sir R. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) |
| Craven-Ellis, W. | Hune, Sir G. H. | Rayner, Major R. H. |
| Critchley, A. | Hunloke, H. P. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) |
| Crooke, Sir J. Smedley | Hunter, T. | Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Joel, D. J. B. | Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Jones, L. (Swansea W.) | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Culverwell, C. T. | Keeling, E. H. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Davidson, Viscountess | Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) | Rowlands, G. |
| De La Bère, R. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Kimball, L. | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. |
| Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. | Leech, Sir J. W. | Russell, Sir Alexander |
| Donner, P. W. | Lees-Jones, J. | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) |
| Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) |
| Drewe, C. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Salt, E. W. |
| Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Liddall, W. S. | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Lindsay, K. M. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Duggan, H. J. | Lipson, D. L. | Selley, H. R. |
| Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Tate, Mavis C. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Simmonds, O. E. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Smith, Sir Louis (Hallam) | Thorneycroft, G. E. P. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald | Titchfield, Marquess of | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Touche, G. C. | Wood, Hon. C. I. C. |
| Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Wragg, H. |
| Spens, W. P. | Wakefield, W. W. | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan | |
| Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. | Mr. Munro and Major Herbert. |
| Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Wells, Sir Sydney | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffith F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Milner, Major J. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Montague, F. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Groves, T. E. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) | Nathan, Colonel H. L. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Naylor, T. E. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Noel-Baker, P. J. |
| Barr, J. | Hardie, Agnes | Oliver, G. H. |
| Batey, J. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Owen, Major G. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Hayday, A. | Paling, W. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Parker, J. |
| Benson, G. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Broad, F. A. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Pearson, A. |
| Bromfield, W. | Hicks, E. G. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Poole, C. C. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Holdsworth, H. | Price, M. P. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hollins, A. | Pritt, D. N. |
| Burke, W. A. | Jagger, J. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Cape, T. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Ridley, G. |
| Chater, D. | John, W. | Ritson, J. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Cooks, F. S. | Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Collindridge, F. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Cove, W. G. | Kelly, W. T. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Daggar, G. | Kirby, B. V. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Dalton, H. | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Lathan, G. | Stephen, C. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Lawson, J. J. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Day, H. | Leach, W. | Summerskill, Dr. Edith |
| Dobbie, W. | Lee, F. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Leonard, W. | Thurtle, E. |
| Ede, J. C. | Leslie, J. R. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Logan, D. G. | Viant, S. P. |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Lunn, W. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Walker, J. |
| Foot, D. M. | McEntee, V. La T. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Frankel, D. | McGhee, H. G. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Gallacher, W. | McGovern, J. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Gardner, B. W. | MacLaren, A. | Westwood, J. |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Gibson, R. (Greenock) | Mander, G. le M. | Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Marshall, F. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Mathers, G. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Maxton, J. | |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Messer, F. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Adamson. |
Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendment in page 13, line 36, agreed to.