HC Deb 20 July 1937 vol 326 cc2155-72

Considered in Committee.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.] 1. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1936, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for

SCHEDULE.
No. of Vote. Army Services, 1935, Votes. Deficits. Surpluses.
Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts. Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure. Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, etc., of the Army … — 7,190 3 11 98,637 1 5 —
2 Territorial Army and Reserve Forces. — — 55,848 17 9 437 9 8
3 Medical Services — — 4,078 11 7 11,524 5 8
4 Educational Establishments. 6,415 12 5 — — 9,940 19 5
5 Quartering and Movements — 332,035 8 6 365,595 10 4 —
6 Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts. 136,765 1 2 — — 18,514 5 5
7 Clothing 16,927 3 10 — — 4,411 3 9
8 General Stores 133,841 18 8 — — 35,214 6 8
9 Warlike Stores — — 252,222 5 11 27,583 15 11
10 Works, Buildings and Lands. — — 89,104 9 8 9 8 28,275 12 10
11 Miscellaneous Effective Services. — 14,316 9 0 3,999 12 8 —
12 War Office — — 5,751 8 7 1,002 0 11
13 Half-Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers. — 486 9 7 12,843 3 0 —
14 Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, Men, and others. — — 14,501 7 6 1,476 17 8
15 Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities. 6,857 6 0 — — 230 7 4
— Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned. 2,229 8 5 — — —
303,036 10 6 354,028 11 0 902,582 3 5 138,611 5 3
Total Deficits £657,065 1 6 Total Surpluses £1,041,193 13 8
Net Surplus … £384,128 12 2

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Captain Margesson.]

Mr. Benn

Are we to have the compliment of an explanation? those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £384,128 12s. 2d., namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses … 1,041,193 13 8
Total Deficits … 657,065 1 6
Net Surplus … £384,128 12 2

1.12 a.m.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville)

The right hon. Gentleman will know that this is an annual Measure. I have been looking up the records of previous occasions, and I see that it has been quite usual for the House to accept it.

Mr. Kelly

Not at this hour of the night.

Lieut.-Colonel Colville

Yes. The position is that every Appropriation Act contains a Section, in this instance Section 4 of the Appropriation Act, 1935, and Section 4 of the Act of 1936, authorising the temporary transfer of any surpluses arising on any of the Navy, Army, or Air Votes, to meet a deficiency in the realised appropriation in aid of any other Navy, Army, or Air Votes or expenditure in any such Votes in excess of the Estimate or in defraying expenditure not provided in the Estimates which it may be detrimental to the Service to postpone. The aggregate expenditure on such Services must not, however, exceed the aggregate sums appropriated by the Acts for those Services. Treasury authority is necessary for those, but the Treasury authority in this connection is only temporary, and it has to be confirmed by Parliament. To this end, the Appropriation Acts to which I have referred provided that statements showing the circumstances in which the sanction for the temporary use of surpluses was given should be laid before Parliament, and that was done in January last. The final stage is to obtain Parliamentary sanction for the permanent application of the surpluses, and that is done by the present Resolutions, which lead up to a Clause in the Appropriation Bill, 1937, which will shortly be introduced. The accounts, of course, have been reported on by the Comptroller and Auditor General and have been the subject of examination by the Public Accounts Committee. The report of the Public Accounts Committee

is now available. That is the explanation of the Resolution.

1.16 a.m.

Mr. Benn

I am very much obliged to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, but we are dealing with serious matters, the transfer of money which is provided for the Defence Services. The first question that I would ask is, Where is the Secretary of State for War? We all respect the Financial Secretary, but he is not competent to explain why one Service was starved and another Service was supplied with money. The right hon. Gentleman spoke as if this Debate was a mere formality. This is not a formality at all. It is a very serious proceeding. I remember the first occasion on which I was at one of these Debates—I am ashamed to say it was 31 years ago—when not only was Mr. McKenna present, but Mr. Haldane, the Secretary of State for War, was there to explain. Therefore, Captain Bourne, I would ask you if you would accept a Motion to report Progress in order that we may have the advantage of the attendance of the Secretary of State for War to explain these matters. I have looked these matters up—as the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs would say, I have "mugged" them up—and I move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 48; Noes, 135.

Division No, 303.] AYES. [1.17 a.m.
Barr, J. Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Bellenger, F. J. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Jagger, J. Sexton, T. M.
Burke, W. A. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Silverman, S. S.
Daggar, G. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Kelly, W. T. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Kirby, B. V. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Dobbie, W. Kirkwood, D. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Ede, J. C. Logan, D. G. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Lunn, W. Tinker, J. J.
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Watson, W. McL.
Frankel, D. Mainwaring, W. H. Wilkinson, Ellen
Gibson, R. (Greenock) Noel-Baker, P. J. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Grenfell, D. R. Paling, W. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) Price, M. P.
Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Pritt, D. N. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Harris, Sir P. A. Ritson, J. Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J Atholl, Duchess of Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm h)
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Bernays, R. H.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Balniel, Lord Bossom, A. C.
Aske, Sir R. W. Beamish, Rear-Admiral T P. H. Boulton, W. W.
Assheton, R. Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Bower, Comdr. R. T.
Boyce, H. Leslie Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Rayner, Major R. H.
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Butcher, H. W. Holdsworth, H. Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Cartland, J. R. H. Holmes, J. S. Ropner, Colonel L.
Cary, R. A. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Castlereagh, Viscount Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Royds, Admiral P. M. R.
Channon, H. Hunter, T. Salt, E. W.
Clarke, Lt. Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Scott, Lord William
Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. Joel, D. J. B. Seely, Sir H. M.
Conant, Captain R. J. E. Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Cox, H. B. T. Jones, L. (Swansea W.) Smith, L. W. (Hallam)
Critchley, A. Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Cross, R. H. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Crowder, J. F. E. Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Spens, W. P.
Davies, C. (Montgomery) Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Lloyd, G. W. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Dodd, J. S. Loftus, P. C. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Doland, G. F. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Sutcliffe, H.
Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. McCorquodale, M. S. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Thomas, J. P. L.
Elmley, Viscount McKie, J. H. Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
Emery, J. F. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Titchfield, Marquess of
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Maxwell, Hon. S. A. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Erskine-Hill, A. G. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Turton, R. H.
Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Wakefield, W. W.
Fildes, Sir H. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Findlay, Sir E. Moreing, A. C. Warrender, Sir V.
Fleming, E. L. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Fox, Sir G. W. G. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Furness, S. N. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Fyfe, D. P. M. Palmer, G. E. H. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Ganzoni, Sir J. Peake, O. Womersley, Sir W. J.
Gridley, Sir A. B. Petherick, M. Wood, Hon. C. I. C.
Grimston, R. V. Plugge, Capt. L. F. Wragg, H.
Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.
Guinness, T. L. E. B. Procter, Major H. A. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Gunston, Capt. D. W. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Guy, J. C. M. Ramsbotham, H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Rankin, Sir R. Captain Waterhouse and Mr.
Munro.

Question, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned," put, and agreed to.

Original Question again proposed.

1.24 a.m.

Mr. Benn

I regret that I cannot comment on the decision of the Committee not to report Progress, or that we have not the advantage of the presence of the Secretary of State for War. I may make no improper comment on the decision of the House when I say it is a shocking thing that the Government should not show the Committee respect by ensuring the presence of the Minister. Perhaps he does not yet know he is Secretary of State for War. But having decided that point, let me now come to the merits of the case. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury has explained the machinery with perfect accuracy, but this is not merely a question of machinery but one of substance. I do not want to take up time in criticism until I have heard the explanation which, no doubt, the representative of the War Office will give us as to these surpluses and their distribution in other directions. I would point out that the Financial Secretary cannot possibly have any knowledge, such as the Secretary of State for War would have, of the reasons of policy which make it necessary to divert sums from one purpose to another. Therefore, I ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he would give us some explanation of these various deficits and surpluses. and not just to tell us That they have been before the Public Accounts Committee and before the Controller and Auditor-General. That we know perfectly well, and it has already been stated by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. What we want to know from the representative of the War Office, who has the heavy burden of carrying here alone the responsibilities of his great office, is the reason for these things, because we have some criticisms to make about the diversion of sums from one purpose to another. Perhaps the Financial Secretary to the War Office will open the Debate by explaining the details.

1.27 a.m.

The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Sir Victor Warrender)

I am happy to comply with the right hon. Gentleman's wishes, but I must confess I feel some degree of embarrassment since he opened his previous speech by saying he did not think I was capable of giving an explanation. There is no matter of policy concerned here. What the Committee is asked to do is to give Parliamentary authority to a procedure which has already been authorised by the Treasury and the War Office, and to apply surpluses arising on one Vote or one subhead to meet deficits on another subhead. The surpluses and deficits are made up of a hundred and one different items and to give the Committee an explanation of every one of them at this hour of the morning would require a great deal of time. If the right hon. Gentleman and his friends attach so much importance to these points, an easier mode of procedure would have been to let me know beforehand which were the particular points in which they took most interest, and then these could have been proceeded with in a more speedy and businesslike fashion. I would suggest that probably the easiest way to proceed to-night would be to let me know what particular information is required. I would be only too glad to give that information, but as there are 101 items it is rather difficult to give the information without notice.

Mr. Benn

Do I understand that the hon. Gentleman will move to report Progress that the information may be given?

Mr. Mainwaring

Why should the time of the day or night affect the information to be given? If it is required it should be given independent of the time? If it is valuable in the afternoon, it is equally valuable in the morning. If these things are to be divulged, let the hon. Gentleman do it to-night.

1.32 a.m.

Mr. Ede

It is very regrettable that the Financial Secretary should treat the Committee in this way. We are all well aware that his chief went to the 1922 Committee the other day. I had it from a report in the public Press. He listened to what they had to say on matters concerned with the Army. Even the House of Commons is more important than the 1922 Committee and we might have at least as much courtesy. Let us take these 15 items. The first one deals with the pay of Mr. Thomas Atkins which was over-estimated by £98,637 1s. 5d. That may be due to the fact that recruiting was short or that proficiency pay and certain other extras, which are very much beloved by the private soldier and the N.C.O., were not issued to the extent expected. If that is so, the Financial Secretary will realise that that was not very popular with the Army. There was a deficit of £7,190 3s. 11d. under the head of Pay, etc., of the Army. Can the hon. Gentleman explain exactly what was the cause of that, and is it likely that this deficit will continue in the years to come? I notice that the Territorial Forces also showed a surplus of £55,848 17s. 9d. Is there anything more in that than shortage of recruiting? Is it partly due to the condition of affairs so graphically described on one occasion by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill), who found one of the antiaircraft sections carried through its drill in dumb show because they had not the necessary apparatus? Is this the way that that finally appears in the national balance sheet?

I notice that there is a surplus of estimated over gross expenditure of £365,595 10s. 4d. in quartering and movements. It is true that it is set off by a sum of £332,035 8s. 6d. of deficiencies compared with actual receipts. What receipts do the Government get from moving troops? When I was moved by the Government I was never called upon to pay my fare although I would sometimes have willingly paid my fare in an opposite direction. There is also a surplus of £252,222 5s. 11d. in warlike stores. This is at a time when we understood the Government were engaged in bringing the equipment of the nation up to adequate strength. Does that represent the failure of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence to get an adequate supply of war material?

I am sure I have indicated enough for the hon. Gentleman to let him understand that these are matters of great concern. It is a great pity that his chief is not here. I see that his Parliamentary Private Secretary is here and I hope he will convey to his chief the great interest the House takes in these matters and the sense of disappointment at his failure to be here to-night. I can only say that it is a very good thing that the hon. and gallant Member for Wallasey (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) is not here, or he would extract some amusement from his promotion to War Minister.

The Deputy-Chairman

I hardly think that arises.

Mr. Ede

Then I can only express my regret. I notice, also, that the War Office was estimated to cost £5,751 more than was expended. I hope that means that the staff at the War Office has had less chance of rendering the Army inefficient than in the old days. My recollection of the views of the private soldier is that the Army might have won the War in considerably less time but for the War Office. I hope that the reduction of expenditure on that head means that the Army Council has reached the conclusion that there is one item on which the country has sound reasons for rejoicing that there is a surplus.

1.38 a.m.

Mr. Davidson

I had intended to come into the House quietly and listen seriously to the explanation of the Secretary of State for War on matters which, to my regret, and that of my hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for War has not deemed his presence necessary in the Committee. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman has been advised not to take part in the discussion.

The Deputy-Chairman

The Committee has already decided on that. It cannot be raised again.

Mr. Davidson

If it has been effectively met before I will not do so. There are one or two points which, from my former material interest in the Army, I want to raise. I do hope that it will be realised that our queries are put forward with sincere interest in this subject. We hope we shall get as effective a reply as we possibly can. There are one or two items here which, I think, the hon. Gentleman will recognise as very serious that huge surpluses amounting to hundreds of thousands of pounds should be transferred to meet deficits.

The Deputy-Chairman

That is covered by statutory authority and we cannot discuss the merits or demerits.

Mr. Benn

On the occasion to which I referred earlier Mr. Haldane made an explanation regarding the transfer of sums from one expenditure to another, and I would respectfully submit to you that it is in order to ask why a sum has been expended on a purpose other than that for which it was provided.

The Deputy-Chairman

The point is that the method of the payments is covered by statutory authority and that this is not the occasion on which to raise it. It is in order to ask why there is a surplus.

Mr. Davidson

I think some explanation should be made with regard to these surpluses. I would like to ask for some information on the question of medical services. Many Members who have been in His Majesty's Forces know perfectly well with regard to medical services that the old Army doctors used to recommend the very well-known Number 9 for nearly all soldiers' complaints. I would like to know if that is still the practice, and if it is the practice does it account for the amount placed here? On medical services we see that the surpluses of estimated over actual gross expenditure was £4,078 11s. 7d., and that the surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts was £11,524 5s. 8d. I am asking the hon. Gentleman to tell me how many Number 9's this will account for and exactly what medicines have been used. How are these figures arrived at with regard to this service, as it is one of the most important services in the Army? If we have not qualified persons to give the necessary medicine to our soldiers when necessary, we are in danger of being dominated by some oversea Power.

There is another question in which we are interested on this side of the Committee, and that is in regard to educational establishments. We always consider that this is a very important branch of Army life and that the soldier of today with his keener mentality, or, as I said on a previous occasion, with a higher mentality than his officers, is entitled to receive as efficient an educational system as he can get in civilian life, and probably even a more efficient educational system in order to counteract the effects of Army life. Under the head of Educational Establishments we have excesses of actual over estimated gross expenditure of £6,415 12s. 5d., with surpluses of actual as compared with estimated receipts of nearly £10,000. I would like to know what steps are being taken in regard to educational establishments to see to it that the Government and the Secretary of State for War are recognising the value of educational establishments.

The Deputy-Chairman

That is a matter which the hon. Member must raise on the Estimates. He can ask why there is a surplus but he cannot ask general questions of policy.

Mr. Davidson

I was wondering if we could have an explanation in regard to this sum of money for warlike stores which is placed No. 9 on the programme. I have seen many things that could be described as warlike stores. I have seen right hon. Gentlemen opposite dressed in a way that could be described as warlike stores. There is a tremendous amount of money, a surplus of over £250,000 over actual gross expenditure as compared with receipts of £27,583 15s. 11d. I hope we will get some information in regard to that and why the Department is so far out in its estimates. There is also the item of balances irrecoverable and claims abandoned amounting to £2,229 8s. 5d., and I would like to know how these figures are arrived at. I think we should have some reassurance on this point in order that we can reassure our constituents as to their future safety. I would like to have information on these matters in order that these points can be put side by side with recruiting posters throughout the country. If that is done, I am certain that recruiting will be worse in the future than it has been in the past.

Mr. Kelly

I wish to ask a question. There is a statement going around that many of these surpluses deal with Gibraltar. I am told that much that might have been expended there has been saved. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman in his explanation make it clear how much has been saved with regard to Gibraltar on the No. 9 vote as well as the No. 8 vote in regard to stores? I notice that the Under-Secretary for Air seems to be very comfortable as no questions were asked of him—

1.51 a.m.

The Deputy-Chairman

That is not covered here.

Sir V. Warrender

I hope the Committee will not think there was any lack of respect on the part of the Secretary of State in not being here to-night. The Opposition will realise that it has been the practice for many years past that these Resolutions should be taken by the Financial Secretary. If hon. Members opposite had armed themselves previously with a copy of the Army Appropriation Account, 1935, they would have found the answer to a great many of the questions they have asked to-night, and those of them who are so interested as to arm themselves with a copy will be interested to see an extensive explanation given of the reasons why the deficits have been incurred and how the surpluses have arisen. Broadly speaking, most of these surpluses arise, in part out of the number of men in the Army being fewer than was estimated at the time the estimate was made. Some of the items arise out of the fact that the Army was put to a great expense because of the Abyssinian emergency, and some of them arise out of mistakes in estimating. When a Department is charged with estimating for such a huge sum as the Service Departments it is only human nature that occasionally small errors should be made, and where a small error does occur, and we have a surplus on one Vote, it does seem to me to be only common sense that that surplus should be used for making good where a deficit has been incurred. But all these Votes mentioned by the hon. Members opposite, except possibly Vote 9 dealing with warlike stores, which was due mainly to delays, arise out of expenditure which we had to incur in such cases as sending troops out to the Mediterranean to meet the Abyssinian emergency. They naturally upset a great many of our calculations.

Taking the account as a whole the variations really are not very excessive when you consider the enormous sums of money with which they deal. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) asked about any possible saving affecting Gibraltar. That hardly arises on these accounts. If he wishes to pursue that subject, I shall be only too glad to give him the information, but there is nothing in this account so far as I know which applies to the question. If he had given me previous notice I should have been able to give it to him. I hope that now the hon. Gentlemen opposite have expressed their views upon what seems to them a very curious form of procedure, they will realise that we have nothing to hide at all, and if they look at the Accounts they will see a full and adequate explanation given under the various sub-heads.

1.56 a.m.

Mr. Benn

I must congratulate the hon. and gallant Gentleman very sincerely on tackling a difficult problem with great address and ability, although I still think that his Chief should be here. Unfortunately his figures are all wrong. He has a knowledge of all the documents from which the facts can be obtained. I, of course, have read this appropriation account and I think he does it more than justice if he describes it as giving a full answer to the interesting and important questions raised by my hon. Friends behind me. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) raised a question under works and lands, under Vote 10, subhead C, and the hon. and gallant Baronet said the money had been spent because of the Abyssinian war.

Sir V. Warrender

I did not say that.

Mr. Benn

I understood the hon. and gallant Baronet to say that the Abyssinian war caused this expenditure.

Sir V. Warrender

Not on that particular Vote. In many of these cases the expenditure has been due to the fact that we have been put to expenditure which we did not foresee owing to the Abyssinian dispute, but I was not referring to that particularly on Vote 10.

Mr. Benn

Of course I accept the explanation. This Vote 10, sub-head C, is really in a way the most interesting of the Votes. Here is a Vote which puts a sum of money equivalent to £3,384,000 at the service of the Secretary of State for War for the construction and maintenance of warlike strong points at home and abroad. The extraordinary thing about it is—this is one of our complaints—that on this Vote they have effected a saving of £91,000 when, as has been shown, they should have been attending to the fortifications of the western entrance to the Mediterranean, and that is why we ask the question about Gibraltar, I was surprised to hear the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that he was always ready to give information about Gibraltar. A dentist has a simple job compared with great experts like the right hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd George) and the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) in obtaining information from the War Office about Gibraltar. Since he is so willing, however, no doubt he is willing to give us the information in the course of this Debate as it proceeds. I will give what information I can from the reports to which the War Office representative refers. The net surplus on this Vote is £384,000. The difference between Civil Service Estimates and the Service Estimates is that the Civil Service Estimates start with a Vote on account which is at the disposition of all the officers of the Civil Service, but the Service Estimates start with a general Vote—

The Deputy-Chairman

That does not arise on this particular occasion.

Mr. Benn

Very well. I was trying to explain the underlying arrangements, but I do not want to pursue that. The net surplus shown on the War Office Vote is £384,000. It may be voted for Vote 10, on page 204 of the Estimates. We find that we voted £155,400 for various stations abroad for adapting defence to modern requirements. That was the description. On this Vote, Vote 10, subhead C, we find a saving of £91,000 and we want to know how much of that should have been spent in bringing Gibraltar into a state of defence, and how much was not spent. Now the Financial Secretary to the War Office tells my hon. Friend that he would give him plenty of information about Gibraltar if he would only give him notice, but he could not possibly give it at the present because he had not it ready to hand. As a matter of fact, if the hon. and gallant Baronet had read the report of the Appropriation Account of the Army he will find that in this report we are given a detailed statement about the expenditure at Gibraltar.

I am sorry to be called upon as a private Member of this House to give all this information. It is all set out in a special table, and ever since the year 1883 it has been ordered that expenditure under various heads for these fortifications abroad should be set out. Perhaps the representative of the Air Ministry, who has had plenty of time to prepare for the questions which may be put during the course of further discussion, may refresh his memory from the report which has so constantly been referred to and give us a little more information. Could he tell us why, under sub-head C, which mentions £155,000 for War Office supplies to date, there is a saving at a time when Members of the party opposite are complaining that the Government have failed to put the Rock of Gibraltar in an effective state?

Mr. Paling

A very definite question has been asked and the Minister should now have had time to be able to give the information asked for.

Sir V. Warrender

I make no complaint at all but I suggest if points of detail were to be raised, I should have been given notice. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am trying to explain the difficulty I have in giving information at such short notice. There are a hundred and one items, and it is quite impossible for anybody to keep all the details in their heads. We have many defended ports besides Gibraltar.

Mr. Benn

Does the hon. Gentleman accept the definition of General Franco that it is not of much importance?

Sir V. Warrender

I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on the Spanish situation. The right hon. Gentleman wishes to know why there is a surplus of £91,767 under sub-head C of Vote 10. On page 22 of the accounts he will see it says that the progress of the services undertaken in consequence of the special measures taken in connection with the Italo-Abyssinian dispute was slower than had been anticipated in the Supplementary Estimate. In that Estimate we took £200,000 and as we were unable to expend what we had taken as quickly as we hoped, there remained to us at the end of the Account this surplus of £91,000.

2.4 a.m.

Mr. Kelly

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that had I known this Vote was going to be taken to-night I would have given him notice in order that he might have been fully prepared, but I had not expected that the Government would attempt to rush this through at this hour of the morning and give no opportunity for explanations with regard to Gibraltar and other places. I will confine myself to Gibraltar. The hon. Gentleman well knows that one is deeply concerned about the people who are employed there in the service of the War Department. Certain information does come to one and it is because of that and the restive feeling there that I put questions to him as to the savings made, which is believed to be unwarranted.

Original Question put.

The Committee proceeded to a Division; Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward and Mr. Grimston were appointed Tellers for the Ayes, but there being no Members willing to act as Tellers for the Noes, The CHAIRMAN declared the Ayes had it.

Resolved, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned." 11. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1936, that the aggregate Expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net Expenditure is £80,814 15s. 1d., namely:

£ s. d.
Total Surpluses … 154,394 9 3
Total Deficits … 73,579 14 2
Net Surplus … £180,814 15 1

SCHEDULE.
No. of Vote. Air Services, 1935, Votes. Deficits. Surpluses.
Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure. Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts. Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure. Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.
£ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d.
1 Pay, etc., of the Royal Air Force. — — 39,178 16 3 10,931 1 7
2 Quartering, Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transportation. 5,474 14 4 — — 307 5 6
3 Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services). 50,824 9 11 — — 12,779 9 4
4 Works, Buildings, and Lands. — 9,292 14 8 44,807 13 3 —
5 Medical Services … 3,079 9 9 — — 1,807 8 1
6 Technical Training and Educational Services. — — 7,551 3 4 146 17 9
7 Auxiliary and Reserve Forces. — — 14,122 7 7 71 1 10
8 Civil Aviation — 414 11 6 18,115 7 2 —
9 Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services. — — 527 18 6 1,480 4 4
10 Air Ministry 4,022 0 2 — — 1,545 19 11
11 Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services. — — 890 4 6 131 10 4
— Balances irrecoverable and claims abandoned. 471 13 10 — — —
63,872 8 0 9,707 6 2 125,193 10 7 29,200 18 8
Total Deficits £73,579 14 2 Total Surpluses £154,394 9 3
Net Surplus … £80,814 15 1

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Captain Margesson.]

Mr. Kelly

I should like to put one question. Why is there this saving in regard to experiments and research? I cannot understand it at this time.

2.10 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Air (Lieut.-Colonel Muirhead)

With regard to Vote 3, there was a deficit of £51,000. That was the total deficit. There was an underspending of £320,000 under subhead A of this Vote, due to payments for aeroplanes and engines not maturing as early as had been anticipated. That surplus was more than offset by the total armament and technical equipment generally and, therefore, the Vote to which the hon. Gentleman refers shows not a surplus but a deficit. More was actually spent than was anticipated.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening. Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twelve Minutes after Two o'Clock, a.m.