§ 10.48 p.m.
§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEI beg to move, "That the Clause be postponed."
I rise to move this manuscript Amendment for the reason which those present in the Committee during the discussion on the last Clause will readily appreciate. I should have liked to have pursued the ordinary course of raising the question in relation to Clause 7 on the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," but you have ruled that if I took that course it would be too late to move the postponement of the Clause. I confess frankly that I do not know precisely the significance of this Clause, but it is clear to me that it involves principles very similar to those we have been discussing under Clause 6. It empowers the Treasury to put duties up and down according to its will in certain ways, and it involves an entirely new principle in this House. We have had no explanation of the Clause at any stage of the discussion of the financial proposals, and it is impossible for us to judge whether it is a simple proposal or an exceedingly complicated one, as complicated as, or possibly more complicated than, the principles underlying Clause 6. We should have some information regarding the fundamental ideas underlying the Clause before we can discuss it, and we want to know whether there are any underlying agreements such as those referred to in connection with Clause 6. For these reasons I propose to postpone the Clause.
§ 10.51 p.m.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI was not present at the discussion on the recent Clause to which the hon. Member has made allusion, but his proposal seems to be the somewhat astonishing one to postpone this Clause without hearing any explanation of what it does.
§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCEWe had an animated discussion on Clause 6, and the Government spokesman was evidently willing to consider the postponement of 176 Clause 6, but the Deputy-Chairman ruled that having started a discussion on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," it was not open to anyone to move to postpone the Clause. Therefore, as I have explained, I was precluded from taking the course which I should naturally have done of asking for an explanation first.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThe position in this case, as I understand it, is that I am not in the same position as the Minister who preceded me, in that I am not willing to postpone discussion of this Clause. It is a simple Clause and does not involve any mystery, or subterranean agreement, or any new principle. At present we can—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANDebate on the question that consideration of a Clause be postponed is extremely limited. It is expressly laid down that it must not be on the merits of the Clause but on the reasons for postponement.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINIn that case I can only assure the Committee that I have an adequate explanation and hope to have the opportunity of presenting it.
§ Mr. BELLENGERWould the Chancellor give us that explanation in the form of a White Paper?
§ 10.54 p.m.
§ Mr. BEVANI would be the last person to question your Ruling, Captain Bourne, and I know that you have to rule in accordance with the procedure of the Rouse, but I submit that the nature of the Ruling you have given earlier is such as to make it practically impossible for the Committee to give adequate attention to the matters before it. We were unable to discuss the matter on the last occasion, and have voted on a Clause about which there is complete mystery. We are now precluded from having an explanation of what this Clause is. If the Committee find after an explanation has been made that the Clause is one they do not understand we can neither discuss it nor postpone it, but simply 177 have to vote on it. The procedure of the House should not be so interpreted as to frustrate the desires of the Committee. I submit in all seriousness that what has happened this evening is not consistent with the high position occupied by this Chamber in the Parliaments of the world.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIf the hon. Member will be good enough to look at the precedents dealing with the postponement of a Clause—and there are a good many of them—he will find that discussion on such occasions is limited strictly to the reasons for postponement and must not deal with the merits of the Clause.
§ Sir P. HARRISCould we not have an explanation from the Chancellor as to why the Clause cannot be postponed?
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI think I heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that he had nothing to conceal in the Clause.
§ Mr. BEVANNothing that has happened this evening would give the Committee the right to attach any weight at all to the Chancellor's assurance. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I do not make the statement in any offensive way. But neither on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill nor at any other previous stage were Members of the Committee put in possession of the actual meaning of the proposals now before the Committee. It looks as though the Government are trying to get legislation through by stealth—trying to sneak it through—which seems a most undignified procedure from the point of view of all parties. The interpretation of the Rules of Order ought not to preclude a representative of the Government placing the Committee in possession of the meaning of the Clause. We are now in the absurd position that, if we do not understand the Clause, we merely have to put up with our own ignorance on the matter—and it is not as though the ignorance were confined only to Members of this party, because Members opposite have also declared their inability to understand the Clause. It ought to be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to explain the Clause now before us, without making it impossible for the Committee to postpone further 178 consideration of the Clause if they so desire.
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI have consulted almost all the Rulings that have been given on the subject and they are to the effect which I have already indicated.
§ 10.58 p.m.
§ Mr. LEES-SMITHClauses 6 and 7 are part of the same scheme which the Government are now bringing before the Committee and the same kind of difficulty in which we found ourselves on Clause 6 will arise on Clause 7 once we embark on a discussion of it. The Chancellor was not present to see the complete bewilderment in which we were placed by the procedure on Clause 6. It became clear after the discussion on that Clause had proceeded for a few minutes that the Committee had not sufficient information about it to enable Members to enter upon upon an intelligible discussion of it. The only information we had was the Minister's speech and it became evident that we would require documentary preparation before discussing the subject.
It was also clear that if the Government had been able to do so, under the Rules of Order, they would have taken into consideration our suggestion that the Clause should be postponed. That, however, could not be done and in order to mark our view of the manner in which the subject had been dealt with, we moved to report Progress on that Clause. In this case also the Committee ought to have been put in possession of information about the complications of this Clause before being called upon to deal with it. The fact that that was not done is the responsibility of the Government. It could have been done on Second Reading, but that opportunity was not taken. Again, we move the postponement of this Clause in order to express our view that the unfortunate circumstances in which the Committee finds itself are the responsibility of the Government, and our Motion for postponement is a Motion of Censure on the Government for the manner in which they have conducted this Bill.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be postponed."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 134; Noes, 212.
175| Division No. 222.] | AYES. | [10.40 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Dunne, P. R. R. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Channon, H. | Eastwood, J. F. |
| Agnow, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Eckersley, P. T. |
| Albery, I. J. | Christie, J. A. | Emery, J. F. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Clydesdale, Marquess of | Emrys-Evans, P. V. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Colfox, Major W. P. | Entwistle, C. F. |
| Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley | Colman, N. C. D. | Errington, E. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. | Erskine Hill, A. G. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Fildes, Sir H. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Findlay, Sir E. |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury) | Cooper, Rt.Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.) | Fleming, E. L. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Craddock, Sir R. H. | Furness, S. N. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Craven-Ellis, W. | Gibson, C. G. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Gluckstein, L. H. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Goodman, Col. A. W. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Crossley, A. C. | Gridley, Sir A. B. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Crowder, J. F. E. | Grimston, R. V. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Cruddas, Col. B. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovll) | Guy, J. C. M. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H C. (Newbury) | Dawson, Sir P. | Hanbury, Sir C. |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | De Chair, S. S. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. |
| Burton, Col. H. W. | Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Harbord, A. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Drewe, C. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Cary, R. A. | Dugdale, Major T. L. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Duggan, H. J. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Duncan, J. A. L. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) | Dunglass, Lord | Herbert, Captain S. (Abbey) |
| Holmes. J. S. | Moreing, A. C. | Shute, Colonel Sir J. J. |
| Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. |
| Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) | Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Mulrhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. |
| Hulbert, N. J. | Munro, P. | Spens, W. P. |
| Hume, Sir G. H. | Nail, Sir j. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) |
| Hunter, T. | Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Jarvis. Sir J. J. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Storey, S. |
| Joel. D. J. B. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Jones, L. (Swansea, W.) | Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Keeling, E. H. | Palmer, G. E. H. | Srauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) | Penny, Sir G. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Kerr, J. G. (Scottish Universities; | Perkins, W. R. D. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h) |
| Kirkpatrick, W. M. | Petherick, M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Pilkington, R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Latham, Sir P. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Sutcllffe, H. |
| Lees-Jones, J. | Radford, E. A. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Lewis, O. | Ramsbotham, H. | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Liddall, W. S. | Ramsden, Sir E. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Llewellin, Lleut.-Col. J. J. | Rankln, R. | Touche, G. C. |
| Lloyd, G. W. | Rayner, Major R. H. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. | Reed, A. C. (Exater) | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Lottus, P. C. | Reid, Captain A. Cunningham | Tutnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. |
| Lovat Fraser, J. A. | Reid, W. Allen (Derby) | Turton, R. H. |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Remer, J. R. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Ward, Irene (Wallsend) |
| McCorquodale, M. S. | Ropner, Colonel L. | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Macdonald. Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Water-house, Captain C. |
| McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Rowlands, G. | Wayland, Sir W. A. |
| McKie, J. H. | Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) | Wells, S. R. |
| Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. | Saimon, Sir I. | Wilson, Lt.-Col Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Salt. E. W. | Windsor-Clive, Lleut.-Colonel G. |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon H. D, R. | Sandys, E. D. | Wise, A. R. |
| Markham, S. F. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. | Selley, H. R. | Wragg, H. |
| Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Shakespeare, G. H. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | |
| Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Fortar) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.- |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Lleut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward |
| and Sir James Blindell. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke | Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | McGovern, J. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Foot, D. M. | MacLaren, A. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Gardner, B. W. | Maclean, N. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | MacNeill, Weir, L. |
| Adamson, W. M. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Marklew, E. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Marshal, F. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Crentell, D. R. | Mathers, G. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Maxton, J. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Messer, F. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Montague, F. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) |
| Barr, J. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Batey. J. | Hardle, G, D. | Naylor, T. E. |
| Bellenger, F. | Harris, Sir P. A. | Oliver, G. H. |
| Benson, G. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Owen, Major G. |
| Bevan, A. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Paling, W. |
| Broad, F. A. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Parker, J. |
| Bromfield, W. | Hills, A. (Pontetract) | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Holland, A. | Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Buchanan, G. | Hopkin, D. | Potts, J. |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Price, M. P. |
| Cape, T. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Chater, D. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Rlley, B. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Rltson, J |
| Cocks, F. S. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Compton, J. | Kelly, W. T. | Rothschild, J. A. de |
| Cove, W. G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Rowson, G. |
| Crlpps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Kirby, B. V. | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Daggar, G. | Klrkwood, D. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Dalton, H. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. | Shinwell, E. |
| Davies, D. L. (Pontyprldd) | Lathan, G. | Short, A. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Lawson, J. J. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Davies. S. O. (Merthyr) | Lee, F. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Day, H. | Leonard, W. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Dobble, W. | Leslle, J. R. | Smith, E. (Sioke) |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Logan, D. G. | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Lunn, W. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Evans. D. O. (Cardigan) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | McGhee. H. G. | Stephen, C. |
| Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) | Watson, W. McL. | Wilson, G. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) | Westwood, J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) | White, H. Graham | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Thurtle, E. | Whiteley, W. | |
| Tinker, J. J. | Williams, D. (Swansea, E.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Vlant, S. P. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) | Mr. John and Mr. Groves. |
| Watkins, F. C. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Division No. 223.] | AYES. | [11.0 p.m. |
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Owen, Major G. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Paling, W. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Parker, J. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Groves, T. E. | Parkinson. J. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Pethick-Lawrence. F. W. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A, V. (H'lsbr.) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Potts, J. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Hardie, G. D. | Price, M. P. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Harris, Sir P. A. | Pritt, D. N. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Riley, B. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Ritson, J. |
| Barr, J. | Holland, A. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Batey, J. | Hopkin, D. | Rothschild, J. A. de |
| Bellenger, F. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Rowson, G. |
| Benson, G. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Bevan, A. | John, W. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Broad, F. A. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Short, A. |
| Bromfield, W. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Silverman, S. S. |
| Brooke, W. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Buchanan, G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Burke, W. A. | Kirby, B. V. | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) |
| Cape, T. | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Chater, D. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cluso, W. S. | Lathan, G. | Stephen, C. |
| Cocks. F. S. | Lawson, J. J. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Compton, J. | Lee, F. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Cove, W. G. | Leonard, W. | Taylor. R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Cripps. Hon. Sir Stafford | Leslie, J. R. | Thurtie, E. |
| Daggar, G. | Logan, D. G. | Tinker, J J. |
| Dalton, H. | Lunn, W. | Vlant, S. P. |
| Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Walker, J. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | McGhee, H. G. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | McGovern, J. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Day, H. | MacLaren, A. | Westwood, J. |
| Dobbie, W. | Maclean, N. | White, H. Graham |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | MacNeill, Weir, L. | Williams, D. (Swansea, E.) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Markiew, E. | Williams. E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Marshall, F. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Maxton, J. | Wilson. C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Messer, F. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Foot. D. M. | Montague, F. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Gardner, B. W. | Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) | |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Naylor, T. E. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers. |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Oliver, G. H. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Christle, J. A. | Furness, S. N. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Colfox, Major W. P. | Gibson, C. G. |
| Agnew. Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Colman, N. C. D. | Gluckstein, L. H. |
| Albery, I. J. | Colville. Lt.-Col. D. J. | Goodman, Col. A. W. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Gridley, Sir A. B. |
| Apsley, Lord | Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Grimston, R. V. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll,N.W.) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Craddock, Sir R. H. | Guy, J. C. M. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Craven-Ellis, W. | Hanbury, Sir C. |
| Baldwin-Webb. Col. J. | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Balfour. Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Crossley, A. C. | Harbord, A. |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury) | Crowder, J. F. E. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Blair, Sir R. | Cruddas, Col. B. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Blinded, Sir J. | Dawson, Sir P. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | De Chair, S. S. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Boulton, W. W. | Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) | Herbert, Captain S. (Abbey) |
| Boyce. H. Leslie | Dugdale, Major T. L. | Holmes. J. S. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Duggan, H. J. | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Duncan, J. A. L. | Hore-Belisha. Rt. Hon. L. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Dunglass. Lord | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Dunne, P. R. R. | Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Eastwood, J. F. | Hulbert, N. J. |
| Burton, Col. H. W. | Eckersley, P. T. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Butler. R. A. | Emery, J. F. | Hunter, T. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Jarvis. Sir J. J. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Entwistle, C. F. | Joel, D. J. B. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Errington, E. | Jones, L. (Swansea. W.) |
| Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) | Erskine Hill, A. G. | Keeling, E. H. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Fildes, Sir H. | Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) |
| Channon, H. | Findlay, Sir E. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) |
| Chapman, A. (Ruthergien) | Fleming, E. L. | Kirkpatrick, W. M. |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Spens, W. P. |
| Latham, Sir P. | Palmer, G. E. H. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd) |
| Lees-Jones, J. | Penny, Sir G. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Perkins, W. R. D. | Storey, S. |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Petherick, M. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Lewis, O. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Liddall, W. S. | Radford, E. A. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Lloyd, G. W. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. | Ramsbotham, H. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Loftus, P. C. | Ramsden, Sir E. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Rankin, R. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Rayner, Major R. H. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| McCorquodale, M. S. | Reid, Captain A. Cunningham | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) | Reid, W. Allen (Derby) | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Remer, J. R. | Touche, G. C. |
| McKie, J. H. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Ropner, Colonel L. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. |
| Makins. Brig.-Gen. E. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Turton, R. H. |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Rowlands, G. | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Runciman. Rt. Hon. W. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Markham, S. F. | Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) | Ward, Irene (Wallsend) |
| Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Waterhouse. Captain C. |
| Mayhew. Lt.-Col. J. | Salmon, Sir I. | Wayland, Sir W. A. |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Salt, E. W. | Wells, S. R. |
| Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) | Sandys, E. D. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Mltcheson. Sir G. G. | Selley, H. R. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Moreing, A. C. | Shakespeare, G. H. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Wise, A. R. |
| Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Womersiey, Sir W. J. |
| Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Wragg, H. |
| Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Shute, Colonel Sir J. J. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Munro, P. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. | |
| Nall, Sir J. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H. | Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. | Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert |
| O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L. | Ward and Major George Davies. |
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. BENSONI hope that we are going to have the promised explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
§ 11.10 p.m.
Mr. CHAMBERLAINI shall be very glad to give the explanation for which the hon. Member asked. This Clause has been inserted in the Bill at the instance of the Import Duties Advisory Committee, and its purpose is to enable certain changes to be made in duties for a limited period of time. It does not really introduce any new principle, as the hon. Member thought, because we have at present the power to do the same thing, only we have to do it by two Orders instead of one. For example, if it is intended to add an article to the Schedule, that is to say, to exempt it from duty for a limited period, first art Order has to be made exempting it from the duty and then, when the time has elapsed, another Order has to be made which puts it under the duty again as it was before. This Clause enables us to say in the Order that it is only to operate for a certain specified period of time. That is the whole purpose of the Clause, 182 and I think the hon. Member will see that there is nothing very sinister in it.
§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCELet us be quite clear. Under the existing system, as I understand it, when it is proposed to increase a tariff it is necessary to have an Order which must be confirmed by this House; but when it is proposed to lower a tariff is it necessary for the Order to be confirmed by the House? Under the new procedure only a single step will he necessary. Do I understand that in the case of any Order of that kind the usual acceptance subsequently by this House is required?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINThere is the same principle, that where a duty is imposed there has to be an affirmative Resolution of the House, but where no duty is imposed then a negative Resolution is all that is required.
§ Sir F. ACLANDCan the Chancellor give us a definite assurance that this procedure will not result in taking out of the control of the House any right with regard to deciding on a report from the Import Duties Advisory Committee which the House has hitherto had?
Mr. CHAMBERLAINYes, I think I can give a definite assurance to that 183 effect. I cannot see how this proposal will make any difference to the control of the House. The House can debate the Order and debate the time which is specified in the Order. The only difference is that the House will have one opportunity of doing it, whereas they have hitherto had two opportunities.
§ 11.13 p.m.
Mr. ALEXANDERI am not at all clear about this, according to my reading of the present procedure. I hope the Chancellor will forgive me for speaking in that way, but I get many experiences of Import Duties Advisory Committee procedure. At present the Committee, after they have made a recommendation to the Treasury for an addition to the free list, are not bound to lay before Parliament an Order for an affirmative Resolution. All that is necessary at the moment is to make no Order and then there is no need for an affirmative Resolution. What is going to happen under this new Clause? The Government will take power to grant relief from a duty for a certain period, either under the First Schedule of the Act of 1932, or under Section 16 of the Finance Act of 1933, or under the Act of 1935. That period may be for as long as 12 months or two years. During that period many of those who are engaged in the trade in that commodity may earnestly desire its retention in the free list, but under this procedure, at the end of the speci-
§ fied period for which it was put on the free list it will automatically come under the duty again. There will be no opportunity, on either procedure as laid down at the present time under the Import Duties Act, 1932, of discussing and opposing that particular reimposition of duty, for however long may have been the period—it may be a year, or two or more years—of its inclusion in the free list.
§ That is a most objectionable procedure. I can see that it is on all fours with the procedure that has been followed for years by the Australian Tariff Board. The Government are becoming so thoroughly steeped in the wire-pulling and the logrolling of Tariff procedure, that they are gradually putting as much of it out of the way of the House of Commns as they can. This is only one of the steps. Clause 6, about which we have had no clear explanation to-night, is another mongrel adaptation of some of the present procedure of the Australian Tariff Board. I do not accept for a moment the position as put to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We shall get no opportunity of really taking an affirmative Resolution one way or the other on this Order, once this Clause has become part of the Statute of 1936.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 128.
185| Division No. 224.] | AYES. | 11.18 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Christie, J. A. | Findlay, Sir E. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Colman, N. C. D. | Fleming, E. L. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. | Furness, S. N. |
| Albery, I. J. | Cook, T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Gibson, C. G. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Cooks, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Gluckstein, L. H. |
| Apsley, Lord | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh.W.) | Goodman, Col. A. W. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Craddock, Sir R. H. | Gridley, Sir A. B. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Craven-Ellis, W. | Grimston, R. V. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Guy, J. C. M. |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury) | Crossley, A. C. | Hanbury, Sir C. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Crowder, J. F. E. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Cruddas, Col. B. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovll) | Harbord, A. |
| Boulton, W. W. | De Chair, S. S. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Dorman-Smith, Major R. K. | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Dugdale, Major T. L. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Duggan, H. J. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Nowbury) | Duncan, J. A. L. | Holmes, J. S. |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Dunglass, Lord | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. |
| Butler, R. A. | Dunne, P. R. R. | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Eastwood, I. f. | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Eckersley, P. T. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Emery, J. F. | Hulbert, N. J. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Hunter, T. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Errington, E. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. |
| Channon, H. | Ersklne Hill, A. G. | Jarvis, Sir J. J. |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Flldes, Sir H. | Joel, D. J. B. |
| Jones, L. (Swansea, W.) | Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H. | Spens, W. P. |
| Keeling, E. H. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) |
| Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) | Orr-Ewing, I. L. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Km, J. G. (Scottish Universities) | Palmer, G. E. H. | Storey, S. |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Penny, Sir G. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Latham, Sir P. | Perkins, W. R. D. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Lees-Jones, J. | Petherick, M. | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Radford, E. A. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Lewis, O. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Llddall, W. S. | Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Ramsbotham, H. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Lloyd, G. W. | Ramsden, Sir E. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. | Rankin, R. | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) |
| Loftus. P. C. | Rayner, Major R. H. | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | Touche, G. C. |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Reid, Captain A. Cunningham | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Reid, W. Allen (Derby) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. |
| MaCorquodale, M. S. | Remer, J. R. | Turton, R. H. |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Wakefield, W. W. |
| McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Ropner, Colonel L. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| McKie, J. H. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbrldge) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Rowlands, G. | Ward, Irene (Wallsend) |
| Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. | Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) | Waterhouee, Captain C. |
| Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Wells, S. R. |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Salmon, Sir I. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Markham, S. F. | Salt. E. W. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. | Sandys, E. D. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| May hew, Lt.-Col. J. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Selley, H. R. | Wise, A. R. |
| Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) | Shakespeare, G. H. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Wragg, H. |
| Mitcheson, Sir G. G. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Moreing, A. C. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | |
| Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Shute, Colonel Sir J. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. | Mr. James Stuart and Commander |
| Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) | Southby. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Owen, Major G. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Paling, W. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Parker, J. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Groves, T. E. | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Pethick Lawrence, F. W. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Potts, J. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Hardle, G. D. | Price, M. P. |
| Anderson. F. (Whitehaven) | Harris, Sir P. A. | Pritt, D. N. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Rlley, B. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Ritson, J. |
| Barr, J. | Holland, A. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helen) |
| Batey, J. | Hopkin, D. | Rothschild, J. A. de |
| Bellenger, F. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Rowson, G. |
| Benson, G. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Bevan, A. | John, W. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Broad, F. A. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Short, A. |
| Bromfield, W. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Silverman, S. S. |
| Brooke, W. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Buchanan, G, | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Burke, W. A. | Kirby, B. V. | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B, Lees- (K'ly) |
| Cape, T. | Kirkwood, D. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Chafer, D. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lathan, G. | Stephen, G. |
| Cocks, F. S. | Lawson, J. J. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Compton, J. | Lee, F. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Leonard, W. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Thurtle, E. |
| Dalton, H. | Logan, D. G. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Lunn, W. | Vlant, S. P. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Watkins, F. C. |
| Day, H. | McGhee, H. G. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dobble, W. | McGovern, J. | Westwood, J. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | MacLaren, A. | White, H. Graham |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Maclean, N. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | MacNeill, Weir, L. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Marklew, E. | Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Marshall, F. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Foot, D. M. | Maxton, J. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Gardner, B. W. | Messer, F. | |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Morrison, Rt. Hn. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Naylor, T. E. | Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers. |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Oliver, G. H. |
§ Ordered, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Mr. Chamberlain.]
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
§ The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.