§ The CHAIRMANPerhaps the Committee will allow me to say a few words on what was said in the House at the end of Question Time. Hon. Members will agree that the House has, if I may respectfully use the phrase, increased its prestige considerably by the way in which this Bill has been dealt with in Committee, and I venture to hope, therefore, that we shall complete the Bill in the way that we have begun and that we shall not fail to end the Committee stage to-morrow night. I do not think that there is any reason why we should not do so, and that ought to mean that we at least complete the existing Schedule to the Bill to-night and leave not less than a whole day tomorrow for the new Franchise Schedules. I realise that that may mean a certain amount of self-denial on the part of some Members of the Committee in refraining from making remarks and observations which are not absolutely essential, interesting as they may be both to themselves and to other Members of the Committee, but I feel sure that if we behave in the best way that we have sometimes behaved during the preceding stages of the Committee on the Bill we ought to be able to complete the Committee stage to-morrow.
§ 3.39 p.m.
§ Brigadier-General Sir HENRY CROFTSo far as my friends and I are concerned, we are anxious to do everything we possibly can to carry out the spirit of the agreement, and I think that we can say that until the Secretary of State thought it necessary to put down so many new Clauses we were well up to time, and we are not very far behind now. The difficulty in a matter of this kind is that the Schedule which we are now discussing is a very long one and as the debate continues it may be that some very big points may arise. I can only give the assurance that so far as my friends and I are concerned we will do everything we can to 1558 keep to the time-table, and we will only deal with those points which we regard as absolutely essential.
§ 3.40 p.m.
§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler)I beg to move, in page 295, line 3, after "transfer," to insert "alienation."
It has been found that the proposals in regard to the transfer of agricultural land are defective in that they do not cover alienation. Two Provinces at least have legislation imposing restrictions on agricultural land, and we therefore wish to add the word "alienation" in order to make the matter clear.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made:
§
In page 295, line 7, leave out paragraph 22, and insert:
22. Regulation of mines and oilfields and mineral development subject to the provisions of List I with respect to regulation and development under Federal control"—[Mr. Butler.]
§ 3.42 p.m.
§ Sir H. CROFTI beg to move, in page 295, line 13, leave out "money-lending and money-lenders."
We desire to transfer this subject to the Concurrent List in Part II. During the last few days we have endeavoured to persuade the Government to transfer certain vital matters affecting the religious and social fabric of India to the Federal List. This important subject appears in the provincial List, and we want it put into the Concurrent List. Where you have customs and habits which are deeply rooted in the religious life of India, we think that they ought not to be dealt with piecemeal by various Provincial Governments, but should be handled after great deliberation and care with the consent of the Central authorities. Of these habits and practices money-lending is perhaps one of the most serious and most difficult problems to solve in all the complexities which confront us in India. It is a far-reaching matter and affects great multitudes of the Indian people. It will be agreed that the money-lender in India is a scourge and blot on Indian life. Vast numbers of the poorest of the poor may be said to be born in debt and to die in debt. The causes are partly social, arising incidentally out of the religious 1559 customs, and partly the agricultural depression, more especially so during the last few years when there has been a drop in the price of primary products in India as well as throughout the world.
In the social and religious customs among the Hindus what are large sums for these poor people are paid on numerous occasions by the average Hindu to the Brahmin priest. When a child is born ceremonies take place and payments have to be made. Sixteen weeks after the birth there is the purification ceremony, when large payments again are made. On the occasion of the weaning of the child and the first visit of the barber, when the child first walks and on the completion of its first year, on the completion of its seventh year, upon marriage, on the first signs of puberty; on all these occasions the priest must be paid for the good of the souls of the parents and the offspring. It is very complicated and only shows how great some of these problems are. When death occurs the priest again comes into the picture, and money has also to be paid on cremation and in some cases every month afterwards. If the family is poor, these constant payments are a great strain on the purse, and, if they are not paid, it is feared that disaster will fall on the child and the family. In these circumstances, millions of people are driven to the money-lenders to get what are regarded as essential sums. There is also the problem of rural indebtedness, and it is estimated that the indebtedness now amounts to something like £800,000,000 which is a colossal sum. It arises from the fact that the poor peasants have been driven to find someone to finance them. They have had to go to the money-lender. Some Provinces have endeavoured to cope with this matter by providing for the registration of money-lenders, prescribing standard forms of accounts and setting a limit to usurious interest.
Recent legislation to this effect in the Punjab has created very intense feelings between the Hindus generally, who are the lenders in nearly every case, and the Moslem peasantry who are the principal borrowers. Money-lenders, in some respects, are the backbone of Hindu life because they are also in many cases bankers and traders. Legislation on somewhat similar lines to that of the 1560 Punjab has been under consideration for other Provinces, notably Bengal, where owing to the ignorance and apathy of the peasants the problem is more acute than anywhere else in India. Money-lenders may be a necessary evil in present conditions, especially when there are uncertain harvests and a depression in prices. The money-lender finances the peasant, that is true, but at a calamitous rate of interest, and the result is that peasants who are in the toils of money-lenders frequently find that they can never escape from their difficulties and very often it is not easy for them to get advice because the subordinate judiciary and clerical staff are also of the money-lending class. The consequence is that the peasant is frequently driven to sell or mortgage his little holding of land in liquidation of his debts, and this often drives him to what is described as the wild practice of revenge. The Committee may be interested to know that last year, according to the official records, there were 13 cases in which money-lenders were murdered in the Punjab alone by their peasant debtors.
Under this Bill the Hindu capitalist class, which is very largely associated with money-lending, will be in power in most of the Provinces. I want particularly to ask the Committee this question: How can you expect these men in control of the Provincial Legislatures to initiate, still less to press, legislation which will free the peasants from their debts? It seems to me that if you are going to rely on such legislation being produced in the Provinces, at any rate in the majority of the Provinces, which will be under Hindu control, it is never going to be produced. Also with the control of law and order taken out of British hands, it may well happen that you will get a movement started in the Provinces of India and that the peasant will rise with a programme for wiping out debts and seizing land, as occurred in the United Provinces in 1921–22. That might prove a very favourable opportunity for a Communist uprising, and I think it will be generally admitted that it would intensify to a very great extent the whole question of communal differences between the different religions. So we find that if in one Province there is failure to deal adequately with this question of agrarian trouble, due to the fact that the peasant is no longer able to meet his 1561 debts, we might have this trouble spreading from Province to Province, and it might flare up until it became an all-India problem.
To sum up, if you leave this great and appalling problem solely in the hands of the Provinces, whose Legislatures are controlled by money-lenders and the money-lending class, there is little if any hope of a reform in this very grave and complex subject, which is so harmful to the lives of many millions of people in India. I believe that in the long run this problem could have been best solved by the British Government detaching it from this communal issue. But that we are not contemplating. The British Government are optimistic. There is to be this new Federal Government established. On the assumption that the Federal Government will not be dominated by a single religion or a single caste or by affiliated castes, but will in time be able to take a broad view of the interests of India as a whole, there is some hope that in such a central Government you might be able to bring in some banking system by which the peasants could find the money to carry them over these difficult times, so that they would not be forced for all time under the bondage of the money-lender. We do not understand these problems in this country to the same extent as those in India do. There are all over India vast multitudes of small cultivators who never see any hope of advancing because practically the whole of their savings have to go in interest to money-lenders. I suggest that we should not trust to luck, that we should not trust that this matter will be dealt with in the various Provinces, but that we should transfer this great and vital subject to the concurrent list.
§ 3.54 p.m.
§ Mr. ATTLEEI am very glad to associate myself with the heavy indictment of the capitalist class made by the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). I have seldom heard in a short speech a better picture of the condition of the proletariat. I am sure that if the hon. and gallant Member's speech was translated into Russian it would be received with joy in that country, and would be added to the considerable literature on the subject. But I cannot agree with the hon. and gallant Member on the practical suggestion that 1562 he has made. He is afraid, and I am also afraid, that the new Councils may be dominated by the vested interests of the capitalists, sometimes called moneylenders. There is a variety of capitalists, and everything depends on their relative rapacity. Vested interests will be far stronger at the Centre, but there is a hope that in some of the Provinces the cultivators of the soil may get power. Indeed I believe that in the Punjab there was a very drastic Money-Lenders' Bill introduced. But when you come to the Centre, with all the powers of wealth there, I do not see very much chance of getting anything drastic done. There is a much better chance in the agrarian Provinces, where you may get a majority representing the actual land workers. I do not think, therefore, that the hon. and gallant Member's proposition is a very useful one. It would be much better to leave this matter to the Provinces. Otherwise the Provinces, instead of tackling their real diculties, may well say "We will leave this matter to the Centre for the Centre to act, and we will not act ourselves."
§ 3.56 p.m.
§ Mr. DAVID MASONI would ask the Government whether it is not possible for them to give some assurance that if they retain this provision in the Bill they will also provide for agricultural banks or facilities of that sort. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) that this money-lending is a scourge in India. But it is also a necessary evil. What are the Government going to do if they do not provide some means of finance for the peasants? I agree with the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee) that we are more likely to get some reform from the Provinces than from the Centre. The Centre is more likely to be dominated by capitalist interests than are the Provinces. If the Government would give an assurance that they would look favourably on any proposal which would provide some alternative to the rather bullying attitude which the money-lender adopts to the helpless peasantry, that might meet the views of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth. He recognises that some finance is necessary for these people. While we agree with him as to the necessity of getting rid of the present evil, we must provide an alternative means of financing these 1563 peasants. I appeal to the Government to provide these alternative methods.
§ 3.58 p.m.
§ Mr. BUTLERIn reply to the remarks of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. D. Mason), this matter of money-lending and money-lenders has, of course, been in the forefront of the minds of various Governments in India for many years past. The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) is quite right in his description of the evils and the scourge of money-lending. In many of these Debates on the Legislative Lists we find ourselves in agreement with the main case put to us. We agree that it is necessary for steps to be taken to eradicate money-lending, and the only question at issue is whether it is wise to insert this item in the Provincial list or in the Concurrent List. All that the hon. and gallant Member said about the danger of high rates of interest and the social habits of the Hindus, and their getting themselves into debt, largely through customs relating to their social and family life, is perfectly correct.
The question, however, is whether we can deal with this on a provincial or on a central basis. Hitherto, money-lending and money-lenders have been an item under provincial control, and it is our view that it would be wiser to leave the power to the Provinces, for the reason that if you leave the Provinces with their responsible Governments to deal with this matter, you are much more likely to get it properly dealt with than if you place it in the hands of the Centre. The first reason is because of the peculiarities of each particular Province. The most striking piece of legislation in modern India against money-lending was recently passed by the Punjab Legislative Council, very largely due to the vote of the agriculturists in that Council. The result of this piece of legislation has been to enforce the registration of moneylenders, and to enforce a particular method of keeping accounts.
I have taken the trouble to investigate this matter, and I have heard from Sir Miles Irving, who has recently returned from the Punjab, and I have read in a recent paper he has written, that the reason for this legislation is the new power which the agriculturists feel has come to them. Under our proposal of extended franchise, the object of which is 1564 to give votes to the agricultural classes, their votes will be very much increased, and I am convinced that the phenomenon we have seen in the Punjab Legislative Council will be copied all over India by the agricultural classes when they realise their power under the new Constitution. This, I think, is one of the most important arguments in support of our reforms. It is essentially the small cultivator who should be given more power, and it is by extending the franchise to the small cultivator, and by encouraging the agriculturist, as has been the case in the Punjab, that the money-lender can be most effectively dealt with.
Besides this advantage of Provincial legislation, there is, as I have said, the advantage of the different customs and the different conditions in the different Provinces. One of the most important methods of checking the money-lender has been what is known as the Dumdupat rule, under which, when the interest reaches the same sum as the principal, no further interest can accrue to the money-lender. That may seem to us a very meagre protection, but the Committee must remember that the rates of interest in India are much higher than we have ever considered possible here. We may grumble at 5 per cent., but we do not consider 50, 100 or even 200 per cent. at all, and that is very often the lot of the Indian peasant when in the hands of the Indian money-lender. This rule has been brought in in the Province of Bombay, where it follows the customary law of the Province. I am assured by expert opinion, and by those who have studied this question in India, that it will be impossible to apply any one uniform law for the whole of India in order to check money-lending, and curb the rapacious habits of money-lenders. If we did that, it would be the quickest way of checking provincial effort to deal with this matter, and provincial effort, thanks to the new power of the agriculturists, would seem to be the very best way to deal with it.
The hon. and gallant Member appears to have conceived in the latter part of our discussions a great liking for our new central government. In the earlier part of the discussions he spent much time in attacking the new Central Government we are about to set up. Now it is his earnest wish to transfer as many items as possible to the control of the 1565 Centre. In this particular case, I think the hon. Member opposite is quite right in saying that the money-lender would receive shorter shrift in the Provincial Legislature than in the Central. Therefore, I strongly advise my hon. and gallant Friend in this case to leave the matter to provincial control and provincial legislation.
The hon. Member for East Edinburgh asked me how this matter would be dealt with in the future. He is aware that the governments have already powers to deal with money-lending. The rural co-operatives which have been set up all over India have done great work in tackling the problem of rural indebtedness. This would be the best way of dealing with rural debt. It is already covered by Item 32 in the Provincial List, and I hope their beneficial activities, which have always had the encouragement of the Government, will be continued in the future.
In conclusion, I would say that I think we are right in leaving this matter to provincial control, because while the Centre has passed only one rather mild measure to deal with this subject, the Provinces have passed much more drastic legislation. That is the desire of the hon. and gallant Member, and while not criticising his excellent arguments and the care with which he has prepared his case, I would put to him, after close investigation of this subject and expert advice, that with the new power the agriculturist is learning to use in the Provinces, we had much better leave this matter to Provincial rather than Central control.
§ 4.7 p.m.
Duchess of ATHOLLMay I supplement the reply which my hon. Friend has given to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. D. Mason) with regard to his question as to whether the Government could not do something by promoting agricultural banks to free these unfortunate peasants from the money-lenders? I do not think that in his reply the Under-Secretary made clear that under this Bill the Governor will have no power to deal with agricultural banks or to take any initiative to promote the welfare of the peasants except by safeguarding peace and tranquillity. And it is the same with the Governor-General.
§ Mr. D. MASONI did not suggest that the British Government could do it, but I only asked the Government to—
§ The CHAIRMANI think we must not develop that subject.
Duchess of ATHOLLI am glad that I misunderstood the hon. Member's question. I thought he was suggesting that the Government should initiate or encourage some movement of the kind. When this Bill becomes law we shall not know what is happening in India except with regard to the matters covered by the special responsibilities of the Governor-General and the Governors. Although I would infinitely rather see the Governor-General given some special responsibility, which would enable him to interest himself in this matter of the welfare of the people, as he can do in the certain circumstances I have mentioned, I think it is advisable to put this subject in the Concurrent List, because although one Province, where the hand of the money-lender is particularly resented by the majority of the people, namely, the Moslems, has passed legislation of the kind described, it remains exceedingly doubtful whether the Provinces where the Hindus predominate are likely to do anything of the kind. We know that the money-lenders belong to the Hindu moneylending class, and in the Provinces in which Hindus are likely to have a great deal of political power, it may be extremely difficult for the Moslems, who have no money-lenders, to get any protective legislation passed.
I should like to add to what my hon. and gallant Friend said as to the terrible way in which, early in life, people in India get driven into the hands of the money-lender. Hindu religion prescribes very expensive feasts at marriages and funerals. I was given an instance of that a few weeks ago in the case of a very high-caste Brahmin whose acquaintance I had the pleasure of making in regard to this Bill. He died, and his son wrote to me telling me of the heavy obligations in which he was landed, because the poor had to be fed for no less than 14 days! mention that as an indication of how inevitably a large proportion of people in India are forced into the hands of money-lenders who charge these terrible rates of interest. But I must say to the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee), 1567 that because of the terrific rates of interest to which he referred, it does seem beside the mark to confuse this money-lending in India with the ordinary tirade he and his colleagues make against capitalists in this country. Were capitalists here to charge anything like 30 or 40 per cent., to say nothing of 200 per cent., we should all join hands with the hon. Member in his diatribes.
To return to the question as to what might be done if this matter were put in the Concurrent List, and the Federal Government given some powers in the matter. I should like to recall to memory the report of the Linlithgow Commission on Agriculture, and the very interesting part of the report which spoke of an Act passed a few years ago, the purpose of which was, in every Province, to give protection to the debtor against the money-lender, by giving power to the debtor to bring the case into court, and giving the court power to cut down the rate of interest.
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid we must not discuss now what legislation may be carried out by the Indian Legislature.
Duchess of ATHOLLI have no intention of discussing what legislation might in future be brought in by the Legislature. I am giving this as an illustration of what the Central Government are already able to do in this matter, and I hope, Sir Dennis, you will not think it out of order if I tell the Committee that the Linlithgow Commission, in reporting on this legislation, said that the Act had remained a dead letter in every Province.
§ The CHAIRMANI am afraid I do regard that as out of order. It is quite irrelevant to the Amendment before the Committee.
Duchess of ATHOLLPerhaps you may not think it out of order if I quote the Linlithgow Commission's opinion that if the Act had been put into operation, it would have been of great benefit to the debtors of India. They recommended the Government of India to institute inquiries in every Province as to why the Act had not been operated, and to ask for an annual report from every Provincial Government as to how 1568 far the Act had been put into effect. I submit that that is an indication of what a very influential and very well-informed committee thought possible that a Central Government could do in ibis very important matter. Any action of that kind would be quite impossible to the Federal Government, and although it is said that in the Punjab Legislature, where agriculturists are chiefly Moslems, and resent very much the Hindu moneylender, a beneficial Act has been passed, it makes it extremely doubtful whether anything of the kind will be carried through in the Provinces, where the Hindus, who are the majority, will have the controlling hand. I would also remind the Committee that this legislation has been carried through in a Legislature where there is a considerable nominated element—an element nominated by the Governor, and pledged more or less to help the Governor, and everyone holding European standards such legislation as very necessary. But in future, in every Province, there will be an entirely communal majority, there will be no one nominated by the Governor and therefore, it remains an extremely open question as to whether legislation of this kind will be carried through in the future.
I cannot but regard this as one of several instances in which the welfare of the peasant in India is liable to be gravely prejudiced by the fact that provincial autonomy is going to be so exclusive. That exclusive autonomy is because of the fears many Moslems have of a Federation which must be largely ruled by Hindus. They wish that provincial autonomy should be exclusive as possible because they hope in that way to have power in three Provinces and possibly in a fourth. They wish that the Provincial Governments should be as little interfered with as possible and I think it is worth the Committee's while to note that this is one of several instances in which that exclusiveness of provincial autonomy is going to mean sacrificing the welfare of the people for purely political considerations.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 280; Noes, 32.
1545| Division No. 183.] | AYES. | [3.25 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chaster, City) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Cayzer, Ma. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) | Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) |
| Albery, Irving James | Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Fox, Sir Gifford |
| Allan, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Fraser, Captain Sir Ian |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Fromantle, Sir Francis |
| Assheton, Ralph | Christie, James Archibald | Fuller, Captain A. G. |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Clayton, Sir Christopher | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Cobb, Sir Cyril | George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) |
| Bailey, Eric Alfred George | Colfox, Major William Philip | Gillett, Sir George Masterman |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Conant, R. J. E. | Glossop, C. W. H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Cooke, Douglas | Gluckstein, Louis Halle |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Cooper, A. Duff | Goff, Sir Park |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Cooper, T. M. (Edinburgh, W.) | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rt'd. N.) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Cove, William G. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas |
| Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley | Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Grigg, Sir Edwaro |
| Bernays, Robert | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Grimston, R. V. |
| Blindell, James | Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Guy, J. C. Morrison |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. |
| Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Hales, Harold K. |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Davies, Stephen Owen | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) |
| Brown, Col. D. C (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Doran, Edward | Hanbury, Cecil |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Drewe, Cedric | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Browne, Captain A. C. | Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Harris, Sir Percy |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Dunglass, Lord | Hartland, George A. |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony | Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenn'gt'n) |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) |
| Burton, Colonel Henry Walter | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) |
| Butler, Richard Austen | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. |
| Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Carver, Major William H. | Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. | Sandys, Duncan |
| Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Holdsworth, Herbert | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwelt) |
| Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Molson, A. Hugh Eisdule | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Hornby, Frank | Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast) |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Moreing, Adrian C. | Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.) |
| Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Hurd, Sir Percy | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) | Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) |
| Hurst, Sir Gerald, B. | Morrison, William Shephard | Smithers, Sir Waldron |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. | Somerville, Annesley A (Windsor) |
| Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Munro, Patrick | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Janner, Barnett | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Norie-Miller, Francis | Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. |
| Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | North, Edward T. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland) |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Nunn, William | Stevenson, James |
| Kerr, Hamilton W. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Stones, James |
| Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger | O'Neill, Rt. Hen. Sir Hugh | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hn. William G. A. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Orr Ewing, I. L. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Law, Sir Alfred | Patrick, Colin M. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. |
| Lees-Jones, John | Pearson, William G. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Percy, Lord Eustace | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Perkins, Walter R. D. | Thorp, Linton Theodore |
| Lewis, Oswald | Petherick, M. | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Liddall, Walter S. | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) | Train, John |
| Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock) | Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Lloyd, Geoffrey | Pike, Cecil F. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) | Potter, John | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Loder, Captain J. de Vera | Power, Sir John Cecil | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Lottus, Pierce C. | Pownell, Sir Assheton | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. |
| Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) | Watt, Major George Steven H. |
| Mabane, William | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Islet) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Ramsden, Sir Eugene | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Rankin, Robert | White, Henry Graham |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Rathbone, Eleanor | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Rea, Walter Russell | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| McKie, John Hamilton | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) | Willoughby do Eresby, Lord |
| Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton | Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham- | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| McLean, Major Sir Alan | Rickards, George William | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) |
| McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Macquisten, Frederick Alexander | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Mailalleu, Edward Lancelot | Runge, Norah Cecil | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Manningham-Builer, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) | |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Salt, Edward W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Marsden, Commander Arthur | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) | Sir George Penny and Sir Victor |
| Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) | Warrender. |
| Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Grenfell, David Ross (Glamorgan) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Mainwaring, William Henry |
| Banfield, John William | Grundy, Thomas W. | Maxton, James |
| Batey, Joseph | Jenkins, Sir William | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Buchanan, George | Kirkwood, David | Thorne, William James |
| Cleary, J. J. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lawson, John James | West, F. R. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Leonard, William | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Dobbie, William | Logan, David Gilbert | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Edwards, Charles | Lunn, William | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | McEntee, Valentine L. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Paling and Mr. T. Smith. |
Question put, and agreed to.
| Division No. 184.] | AYES. | [4.16 p.m. |
| Adams Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Mainwaring, William Henry |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Gillett, Sir George Masterman | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot |
| Albery, Irving James | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Glossop, C. W. H. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Goff, Sir Park | Maxton, James |
| Assheton, Ralph | Gower, Sir Robert | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Astor, viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd. N.) | Meller, Sir Richard James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) | Milne, Charles |
| Balniel, Lord | Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Milner, Major James |
| Banfield John William | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Grimston, R. V. | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Groves, Thomas E. | Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres |
| Batey, Joseph | Grundy, Thomas W. | Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th. C.) | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) |
| Blindell James | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Morrison, William Shepherd |
| Bossom, A. C. | Hales, Harold K. | Moss, Captain H. J. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. |
| Bowyer Capt. Sir George E. W. | Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Munro, Patrick |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Hanbury, Cecil | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Harris, Sir Percy | Norie-Miller, Francis |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes) | North, Edward T. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Buchanan, George | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hn. William G. A. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Orr Ewing, I. L. |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Paling, Wilfred |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Butler, Richard Austen | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Patrick, Colin M. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division) | Peake, Osbert |
| Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Holdsworth, Herbert | Pearson, William G. |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Hope, Capt, Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Penny, Sir George |
| Cautley Sir Henry S. | Hornby, Frank | Percy, Lord Eustace |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Perkins, Walter R. D. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.) | Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Hurd, Sir Perey | Petherick, M. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Potter, John |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Christie, James Archibald | Jamieson, Douglas | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Clayton, Sir Christopher | Janner, Barnett | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) |
| Cleary, J. J. | Jenkins, Sir William | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Ramsden, Sir Eugene |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey | John, William | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Cooke, Douglas | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Rickards, George William |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Kerr Hamilton W. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Cooper T. M. (Edinburgh W.) | Kirkwood, David | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Ruggles-Brise Colonel Sir Edward |
| Cranborne Viscount | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Runge, Norah Cecil |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crossley A. C. | Law, Sir Alfred | Rutherford, John (Edmonton) |
| Culverwell Cyril Tom | Lees-Jones, John | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) |
| Daggar Geroge | Leigh, Sir John | Salt, Edward W. |
| Dalkeith Earl of | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. | Leonard, William | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lewis, Oswald | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Liddall, Walter S. | Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lindsay, Noel Ker | Sandys, Duncan |
| Dobbie, William | Llewellin, Major John J. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Doran, Edward | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Drewe, Cedric | Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Dunglass, Lord | Loftus, Pierce C. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony | Logan, David Gilbert | Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dlne. C.) |
| Edwards, Charles | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Smithers, Sir Waldron |
| Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Lunn, William | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Mabane, William | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff. S.) | MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick) | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Evans, Capt, Ernest (Welsh Univ) | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | McEntee, Valentine L. | Stevenson, James |
| Fraser, Captain Sir Ian | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Stones, James |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | McKie, John Hamilton | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Fuller, Captain A. G. | McLean, Major Sir Alan | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Sutcliffe, Harold |
| Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Darby) | Watt, Major George Steven H. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) |
| Thorne, William James | Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour- | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Tinker, John Joseph | West, F. R. | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | White, Henry Graham | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Train, John | Williams, David (Swansea, East) | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) | |
| Turton, Robert Hugh | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) | Sir Victor Warrender and Lieut.- |
| Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord | Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward |
| Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast) |
| Alexander, Sir William | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Applln, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Hartington, Marquess of | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| Bailey, Eric Alfred George | Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Knox, Sir Alfred | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Carver, Major William H. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Moreing, Adrian C. | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Nunn, William | |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Davison, Sir William Henry | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Mr. Raikes and Commander |
| Emmott, Charles, E. G. C. | Pike, Cecil F. | Marsden |
§ Amendments made: In page 295, line 15, leave out "commodities" and insert "goods."
§ In line 19, leave out "articles" and insert "goods."—[Mr. Butler.]
§ 4.26 p.m.
§ Sir REGINALD CRADDOCKI beg to move, in page 295, line 32, at the end, to insert:
other than such charities, institutions and endowments as the Governor-General in his discretion may determine to be Federal matters.Certain institutions and endowments are specifically mentioned in List I as being under Federal control but otherwise charities and endowments are provincial subjects. To that there is, of course, no objection, but cases may arise in future of new charities or endowments or institutions and it seems desirable to have some recognition of that fact by the inclusion of the terms of the Amendment giving the Governor-General discretion to determine whether such charities are to be treated as Federal matters or not. I only mention one possibility. Frequently in cases of famine or in other cases of urgency, large sums are subscribed, very often from this country as well as from India. These funds are placed at the disposal, probably of the Governor-General, and the whole distribution carried out under the Governor-General. Such funds ought to remain under Federal control.
§ 4.29 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Thomas Inskip)I have listened to what 1572 my hon. Friend has had to say in commendation of this proposal to the Committee and I am bound to say I have not heard any real argument for supposing that it would be wise to place upon the Governor-General this very heavy duty of looking into the affairs of charities and endowments in order to see whether in his opinion they should be Federal or Provincial matters. In the course of the duties of my office I often have to consider questions of charities to decide whether they are charities and what is the nature of the endowments and so on, and I am bound to say it is a very burdensome task very often to inform oneself as to the range of the charity and the persons who are supposed to be the objects of it. I would call my hon. Friend's attention further to the fact that his Amendment is really ineffective, because there are no words in it which would give powers to the Governor-General or to the Federation to deal with these charities, even supposing they had been declared by the Governor-General in his dicretion to be Federal matters.
Therefore, the Amendment would seem to be useless for what I gather is my hon. Friend's purpose. I am not saying that it cannot be put right by an Amendment on the Report stage if that be my hon. Friend's intention, but as it stands the words of the Amendment are very little more than mere verbiage. Even if it were right in form, I suggest that it is hardly worth pressing. Charities, after all, are likely to be local, to the extent at any rate of a Province, and they are 1573 much more fitted to be treated as Provincial matters than Federal matters. I hope that my hon. Friend will feel that the objections I have raised as to placing this heavy burden on the Governor-General, added to the other reasons, are such as to lead him to withdraw the Amendment.
§ 4.32 p.m.
§ Sir R. CRADDOCKThe proposal I made was really that the Governor-General might have the power in certain specific cases. I do not want to impose on him the duty of examining into the various Provincial charities in order to find out whether he would like to make them Federal, but the instances I gave were of funds which were raised very likely by the Governor-General himself or by some other charitable authority who wished the money to be administered by the Governor-General or such trustees as he might appoint. I did not want to have any burden imposed on the Governor-General. I gave specific instances of funds raised for the victims of earthquakes and famines. Fortunately, they do not occur every day, but funds are raised specifically for that purpose. A big fund is raised in London by the Lord Mayor, the money is sent to India, and it requires to be distributed among the Provinces affected by the calamity according to their needs. I do not wish to press the Amendment to a Division, but I would like to ask whether the Government could not see their way on the Report stage to put in some phrase which would cover the cases to which I have referred.
§ 4.34 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI am obliged to my hon. Friend. I appreciate a little better now what is his intention. The words of the Amendment would go much too far to effect the purpose he has in mind. If a fund be raised expressly for the purpose of the people of the whole of India, it almost goes without saying that it ought to be treated as a Federal matter. I will certainly look again into the question and see whether provision can be made for that one rather limited class of case.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendment made: In page 295, line 38, at the beginning, insert "Inquiries and."—[The Attorney General.]
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI beg to move, in page 296, line 4, to leave out 1574 "commodities and articles," and to insert "goods."
§ 4.36 p.m.
§ Mr. RHYS DAVIESA similar Amendment to this was made earlier, but the Government did not give an explanation why the alteration was made. There must be some reason why the word "goods" is being inserted and I should have thought that the alteration could have been made in the beginning. We should be glad to know whether there is a distinction between these three words.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALThe hon. Gentleman is quite right in thinking that there is a reason for making this change. There is a reason for everything that the Government do. If the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to refresh his memory by turning to Clause 289, he will find that the word "goods" is defined as including "all materials, commodities, and articles." Therefore, when we propose to insert "goods" we are putting it in as a sort of shorthand for a much more cumbersome phrase.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 4.38 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI beg to move, in page 296, line 5, to leave out "India," and to insert,
the Province (and countervailing duties at the same or lower rates on similar goods manufacturer or produced elsewhere in India).This is really a drafting Amendment and the alteration does not in any way affect the item. It is merely for the purpose of giving correct expression or value to the word "excise." "Excise" has been used as referring to the duty imposed upon articles which are consumed, say, in Province A, but have been made in Province B. That is not, strictly speaking, the right use of the word "excise," and for the purpose of avoiding that misuse we propose to insert "Province" instead of "India," and then to add the other words of the Amendment.
§ 4.39 p.m.
§ Lord E. PERCYI should like to utter a word of warning. We have been trying in the course of this Bill to prevent levying an internal customs duty. It is one thing to say that a Province shall levy an excise on consumption of certain articles wherever they are manufactured, 1575 but another to say that you shall levy an excise on the manufactures within the Province and a countervailing duty on goods manufactured elsewhere. "Countervailing" is a word which applies only, so far as I know, to a protective system. I would just ask the Government to look at these words and to consider whether, in trying to be more precise in drafting, they have not set up an internal customs duty system in India.
§ 4.40 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALIn any case, this applies to a limited class of articles. It applies to alcoholic liquors for human consumption, opium, and medicinal and toilet preparations. The matter raised by my Noble Friend will be looked into. It is not the intention of the Amendment in any way to deal with the question of a protective system. It is merely intended to clarify words which were used in the Bill.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 4.41 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell)I beg to move, in page 296, line 12, to leave out "income from agricultural land," and to insert "agricultural income."
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSMay I ask the hon. and learned Gentleman for a word of explanation of items 40 and 41? Item 41 includes taxes on lands, but item 40 will merely declare taxes on agricultural incomes if this Amendment be made. Do we take it that the Amendment will leave the power of the Legislative Assembly almost identical and that the new form of words is merely regarded as superior to the original words in the Bill? Do the taxes on land and buildings mentioned in item 41 imply land ownership or the use of land? What is the technical legal definition of taxes on land and buildings?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALThe Amendment we are discussing is consequential on the Amendment which was made to Clause 136 and to the Definition Clause. Agricultural income is the term used in the taxing Acts in India, and there is no alteration in the meaning. It is moved to bring the terminology of the Bill into line with existing legislation. The hon. Gentleman asked me in regard to the next item, but I do not know 1576 whether it would be in order to go into that on this Amendment.
§ The CHAIRMANWhen the hon. Member asked the question it did not seem to me to be in order, but if it is just put as a question and answered shortly it may save discussion on the Schedule.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI do not think I can add very much. The taxes on income on agricultural land are taxes on agricultural income, which is defined in the existing Income Tax Acts, and is no doubt somewhat analogous to our Schedules A and B. "Taxes on land" really means what it says. The power to put a tax on land is in the hands of the Provincial Legislature.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: In page 296, line 19, leave out "commodities," and insert "goods."
§ In line 19, leave out "on turnover."
§
In line 35, at the end, insert:
and excluding the use of His Majesty's naval, military, and air forces in aid of the civil power."[The Solicitor-General.]
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI beg to move, in page 296, line 38, at the end, to insert:
3. Removal of prisoners and accused persons from one unit to another unit.This new item is not included, it has been pointed out, in the list as it stands. It is needed for the custody of prisoners and accused persons who may have to be transferred from one Province to another.
§ Amendment agreed to.
The SOLICITOR GENERALI beg to move, in page 297, line 16, at the end, to insert:
but not including contracts relating to agricultural land.This Amendment, to add words at the end of the item, which refers to contracts, is intended to preserve the right of the Province to levy contracts in respect of agricultural land, such as leases. It is necessary to make this Amendment so as to preserve for the Province the right to regulate contracts in relation to agricultural land.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 4.57 p.m.
§ Lord EUSTACE PERCYI beg to move, in page 297, line 31, to leave out paragraph 19.
1577 This, together with a later Amendment, is a proposal to restore health insurance from Part I of the List to Part II, that is to say, to give the Federal Government power, if it passes a law on this subject, to include in that law powers to the Federal Government to issue directions as to administration to the Provincial Government. It was agreed in the Joint Select Committee that Part II should include all these social reform matters in order to secure uniformity of action throughout the Federation. It would be unless the Federal Legislature had power to authorise the Federal Government to secure uniformity of administration as well as legislation. This particular subject of health insurance was inserted into the Concurrent List by the Joint Select Committee against the advice of the Secretary of State, and by error, no doubt, it has got put into Part I of the List, while it is obviously a matter that ought to be in Part II. Although I know that the Government would have preferred not to see this in the Concurrent List at all, I hope they will agree that it should be in Part II and not in Part I.
§ Mr. BUTLERThe Noble Lord is right in saying that we were obliged to put this in Part I of List III. The Noble Lord's arguments are conclusive, and we therefore accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: In page 298, line 1, at the beginning, insert "Inquiries and".—[The Attorney-General.]
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI beg to move, in page 298, line 6, to leave out from "Factories" to the end of the paragraph.
This is consequential upon the new entry which we put into List I relating to minerals and mineral development.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 298, line 9, at the end, insert:
health insurance, including invalidity pensions; old age pensions."—[Lord E. Percy.]
§ 4.51 p.m.
§ Mr. RHYS DAVIESI beg to move, in page 298, line 9, after the words last inserted, to insert:
28. Unemployment insurance.There are three lists in this Bill—the Federal List, the Provincial List and the 1578 Concurrent List—and so far as I am able to gather there is nothing in the Federal List which provides for what we may call social insurance schemes to be established by the new regime in India. When we come to the Provincial List, however, there are words "Relief of the poor and Unemployment," and I want the Committee to note that to put the word "unemployment" in the Provincial List does not in the least imply that art unemployment insurance scheme will be established in any part of India. In the Concurrent List we find the words "health insurance, including invalidity pensions and old age pensions," but in item No. 27 there are the words "welfare of labour." Government representatives will probably tell us that these words are sufficient to cover the establishment of an unemployment insurance scheme in India, but I am not convinced that that will be so, because in this country long before unemployment insurance was established in 1912 the welfare of labour had been the concern of Governments for about a century. We had factory laws and several Shops Acts, and consequently I am satisfied in my own mind that the words "welfare of Labour" will not avail the new regime in India at all in the establishment of unemployment insurance. There are other provisions in this list. One relates to the regulation of labour.I want to make a protest on behalf of the Parliamentary Labour party that in the whole of this Bill, and in these lists, the working people of India are not mentioned to the same degree, and their rights are not safeguarded to the same extent as those of civil servants, policemen, railway, Army, Navy and Air Force officials. We are proposing, therefore, to do through this proposal, what we can for the working classes of India, and we are moving this Amendment with that deliberate intention. We shall be told, of course, that unemployment insurance is a very difficult proposition for a great sub-continent like India. I agree, but we are already inserting health insurance provisions in these lists. When the health insurance and the unemployment insurance schemes were propounded in this country in 1912, there were many people who said that they would not work, but they have worked very well indeed, especially the health insurance scheme. 1579 It is indeed a very big proposition to establish an unemployment insurance scheme for the whole of the workers of India. Let me say, however, that when our own unemployment insurance scheme was established it was a very minute one to commence with. There were comparatively very few persons included in Part II of the Act of 1912. I am not sure that there were more than 3,000,000 out of the 15,000,000 covered by the original provisions of our own unemployment scheme. We shall also be told that the difficulties of administration are enormous in India. There are the agricultural workers and the peasants and other types of people to be considered. Let me call the attention of the Government to this point. I do not think any Government in any part of the world, in establishing an unemployment insurance scheme, would not commence on a small scale as we did. In the 21 years' experience we have had we have covered in the main only the industrial workers; we have not yet admitted farm workers into the scheme. Neither our agricultural workers nor domestic servants are yet included. We are very anxious to see this proposal adopted so that the working-classes of India, however suspicious they may be of the other provisions of this Measure, and however much they criticise the Bill, will find that the plans we have adopted to cover the incidence of unemployment and invalidity in our own land will be extended through this new Measure to the vast population of India. I hope that the Government will see their way clear to adopt this Amendment.
§ 4.58 p.m.
§ Mr. BUTLERThe item "unemployment insurance" is not to be found in any of the Legislative Lists. This is not from any wish to ignore Indian labour, but arising from the facts of the Indian situation. It is not that there is no good will towards labour, but because of the conditions of Indian labour itself, which differs, totally from labour in this country. It is very difficult to estimate the amount of industrial labour, and, when it is possible to pin down industrial labour in figures, it must be remembered that industrial labour goes backward and forward seasonally between the towns and the villages. This return on the part of industrial labour in India means that there 1580 is no need for an unemployment insurance scheme, because it very often depends upon their own families. Labour also is imperfectly organised and very difficult to find in a settled place, and to arrange the lists upon which unemployment insurance and an unemployment insurance scheme could be organised is a matter of some difficulty. This item does not at present appear in the lists, but we think there should be no impediment in the future if a scheme be introduced in India. I can hold out no hope for the immediate future, but, if there be a scheme, it is not up to us to stop it. Under the Bill the residual powers of the Governor-General would give him power to allocate it to one list or another. We consider it would be legitimate to accept this Amendment and insert it in the place suggested. We have no wish to deny labour its proper place. The Government are, as they have been, amenable on such matters.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 5.0 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI beg to move, in page 298, line 16, to leave out from "Persons," to the end of the paragraph, and to insert:
subjected to preventive detention under Federal authority.This deals with persons detained under Federal authority. Persons who are detained by orders of a Province will also come under Item 1 of this, but the purpose of the Amendment is to make it plain that Provincial authority will be empowered to legislate for treatment of persons who are detained under Federal authority as well as to make provision for persons detained under Provincial authority.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: In page 298, line 18, at the beginning, insert, "Inquiries and."[The Attorney-General.]
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI beg to move, in page 298, to leave out lines 22 to 29.
This is an Amendment consequential on a statement made earlier of the intent to revise the railway definitions and to insert them on the Report stage in Clause 289.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Seventh Schedule to the Bill."
1581§ 5.2 p.m.
§ Sir WILLIAM DAVISONThere is just one matter to which I should like to draw attention before we part with this Schedule. Unfortunately, Sir, you did not see your way to call my Amendment on the Paper to omit the words, "State lotteries," in paragraph 46 of the Federal List. Before we pass this Schedule, I trust the Government and the Committee will see how undesirable it is, in view of recent events in this country, that State lotteries should be placed in the Federal List. In this country we have recently passed an Act of Parliament laying down that it is very undesirable to have any form of State or national lottery, but that it is not so immoral to have smaller lotteries. In these circumstances, it seems to me that the Provincial List is eminently the List in which the question of dealing with State lotteries should be inserted. We are now giving a Western democratic constitution to India, and we are putting in the forefront of the duties which will fall to the Federal Assembly the question of State lotteries. Having regard to the action which this Government has recently taken in forbidding State lotteries in this country, though allowing the smaller lotteries, I submit to the Government that it would be much more consistent if they inserted the words "State Lotteries" in the Provincial List rather than in the Federal List. I think it is only right that this protest should be made, in view of recent events in this country, and that the suggestion should not be made to India that one of the duties of her Central Federal Assembly should be to deal with State lotteries.
§ 5.6 p.m.
§ Mr. ANNESLEY SOMERVILLEThere is a great deal which could be said on this Schedule but as it would probably be out of order to say it I will not try to do so. But one point I want to put is this: The subjects of health and education are Provincial subjects. I regret that they are not in the Concurrent List. In view of past events, supposing that the administration of these services does deteriorate very seriously, am I right in supposing that the Government can then take over the administration of them?
§ 5.7 p.m.
§ Sir H. CROFTThe Government have been unable—with one small exception— 1582 to meet any single point that we have advanced. We have pointed out the extreme desirability, where you get social customs covering the whole of India and involving subjects which may cause tremendous communal difficulty, of trying to keep some central hold over them so that you could have co-ordination, and so that you would not be having different schemes advanced by different Provincial Governments. The Under-Secretary twitted me with having a great desire now to rely upon the Federal Government. I am afraid that my remarks were very dull and that he was not listening to the previous paragraph of my speech. I pointed out that we believe that British rule and guidance alone could solve these great questions, such as that of money-lending which I have been dealing with; and that so long as you had definite British partnership at the Centre you could lift these questions above the communal disturbances and difficulties, and that in that way you had some hope as time goes on—as we have indeed on other subjects—of getting things done. We have seen recent legislation in India dealing with very important matters, such as the Sarda Act, and it is the very fact that you have had the British Raj at the Centre that has made it possible for all sections of the community to look at these questions with some kind of detachment. What we have tried to point out to the Government during the discussion on these Schedules has been the fact that in a large majority of cases there will be definite communal majorities in the Provinces which will never be disturbed and which are likely to continue for all time, as in the thousands of years in India in the past. You may perhaps have changes come after four or five centuries, but very rarely sooner than that.
Take, for instance, the question of money-lenders with which we have been dealing in a recent Amendment which was defeated. It must be clear to the Committee that we may have a Hindu majority in a Province and that no legislation is going to be introduced which is going to be anti-bannia. Such a thing is almost inconceivable. The Under-Secretary referred to the case of the Punjab and he described that as a most remarkable instance of Provincial legislation. But he would agree that there are very few Provinces where that would 1583 have been possible at the present time. The Under-Secretary says "No." With very great respect I am afraid that I must differ from him.
§ Mr. BUTLERI naturally would prefer not to interrupt the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I would remind him that in Bengal and the United Provinces there has been passed very strict legislation against money-lenders; and in the United Provinces in particular, where there is actually a Hindu majority, there has been the strictest legislation passed against money-lenders. In these two Provinces with large communities of Hindus and in the United Provinces with a Hindu majority legislation against money-lenders has been stiffer than in the Punjab itself.
§ Sir H. CROFTWith regard to the special case of the Punjab which the hon. Member mentioned, he will, I think, agree with me that there has been a considerable amount of feeling. I am informed, in fact, that the Hindus in the Punjab have petitioned the Governor-General on this question, regarding the legislation as spoliation. I think it is agreed that you have these intense feelings. The Under-Secretary and the Government as a whole have refused to regard, this matter from the point of view of the future. Will the Under-Secretary deny that it is our people who have been responsible for prompting and suggesting that these various reforms should be brought forward, although I know they have been carried out by Indian legislators? I ask the Committee to consider this: If you have five or six Provinces with overwhelming majorities of Hindu votes if the members elected to the Legislative Councils are overwhelmingly of this class, allied with the money-lending class, how can the Under-Secretary suggest that of their own volition they are going to promote legislation which is going seriously to affect the fortunes of the money-lenders in future?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke for the Socialists referred to the fact that I desired to restrict this particular class of capitalists, the moneylenders, in their operations; and he seemed to think that that was a very helpful indication of reform in my character. If he was sincere—and no doubt he was sincere in that—and if he really believes that I am right in calling 1584 attention to this capitalist domination of the bannia in India I am surprised that he is not taking more active steps to prevent the masses of India falling permanently under the domination of what he calls a capitalist class. I leave that to the Socialist party to smoothe out in the days to come. It is because we do not believe that the Federal Government in India is likely to come into being for a very long time that we have with confidence suggested that certain powers should be retained under the Central Government, with the British partnership continued. In our belief it would have been far wiser to do this, since we all know that we are not going to see this miracle of complete federation occur for many years. We have no indication that the Princes have yet consented to join. It is because we believe that there will still be, for several years at any rate, British guidance at the Centre of the kind we desire to see continued that we have been anxious to see that not so many of these questions should be given over completely to the Provinces to decide. But the Government have gone ahead ruthlessly and like a steam-roller and they have not listened to any arguments of any kind—or at least while they have listened quite courteously they have not been in any way moved by any argument which has been advanced by their Conservative friends. But we have seen them give way on another Schedule and withdraw that completely; and we had the strange spectacle of seeing all their numerous supporters to vote against pages which were printed as part of the Government Bill.
On this Seventh Schedule we have raised four or five big subjects and asked the Government to reconsider them, but their hearts have been hardened, and they have given not the smallest indication that they would try to meet us on the most minute point. The country will realise that His Majesty's Government did not intend that this Measure should be very much altered. They have always said they were going to carry out the Report of the Joint Select Committee in almost every particular. All I can suggest is that the Report of the Joint Select Committee, including what appears in this Schedule, was all decided on by the Government long before the Committee had ever reported. All hon. Members who have 1585 been discussing this Schedule and all the important parts of this immense Measure must have been convinced that this Measure must have been drafted long before the Joint Select Committee reported, and that we had to sit down to a fait accompli, something decided by His Majesty's Government many months ago.
§ 5.16 p.m.
§ Miss RATHBONEI had not intended to say anything on the Schedule, but I have been provoked by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). It is the third or fourth speech he has made on similar lines, and the burden of his remarks is always the same: that subject after subject which closely affects the social and religious customs and conditions in India ought to be transferred from the Provincial List to the Federal List, generally on the ground that the Federal Legislature is less likely to take any action which might cause trouble. If I had needed convincing that a special measure of self-government must be given to India nothing further would be needed than the tone of these speeches. Again and again it has been urged that to deal with some question—marriage, divorce, pilgrimages, moneylending—closely affecting the social habits of the people will stir up strong religious feeling, because it is a subject of prejudice, and the conclusion is drawn that any action on those subjects should be left to that body which is likely to be most timid, most inactive, most under the sway of reactionary forces. If what the hon. and gallant Member wants is that we should have a worthy legatee of the existing Government in India, I think he is right.
The Federal Legislature, as it is proposed to constitute it, will more fully carry out the policy of previous Governments in India in the matter of all those great reforms which excite strong emotion among the people, that is a policy of leaving things alone, of taking the line that the one thing to avoid is the exciting of prejudice and the stirring up of trouble. No matter how much bitter suffering there may be under the surface; so long as it is only among the inarticulate and the helpless, let it be. Unfortunately, that has been too often the attitude of the Government in India, and that tradition is much more likely 1586 to be carried on by the Federal Legislature, with the great vested interests of the wealthy landowners and the numerous representatives of the Princes, than by the Provincial. Legislatures responsible, as they will be, to a fairly wide and democratic electorate.
§ 5.20 p.m.
§ Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXThe hon. Lady thinks that the Federal Legislature under this new Bill will be very reactionary. That is possible. The six Provincial Legislatures are practically certain to be dominated by Congress, which, as we all know, gets its funds chiefly from the richer millowners in Bombay. In the few words I am going to say I should like to support everything that has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft). In the half-hour or so since I have come into the House two Amendments have been accepted, one proposed by a prominent supporter of this Measure, the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), and another which was moved by the Socialist Opposition. We here have waited day after day and moved such Amendments as have been called, and have done our best, as we believe, to improve this Bill, which we detest, which we think is a bad Measure, bad for the Indians, and for this country. Take, as an instance, the Amendment dealing with health services in India moved by the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl), who has great knowledge of that subject. Undoubtedly the acceptance of that Amendment would have made for the good of the country and would have improved this Bill. We have tried to move Amendments to remove irrigation from the Provincial List and put it on the Concurrent List. The people who know most about irrigation think, and I agree with them, that the irrigation service ought to be on the Concurrent List, because one big scheme, like that of the Sukkur Barrage, feeds several Provinces and States. We consider, also, that the forest service should not have been left solely on the Provincial List, but moved to the Concurrent List. Those are examples of Amendments honestly put forward for the good of the people of India and for the improvement of this Bill. We have, however, never met with the slightest encouragement. We 1587 are looked upon as obstructionists, though there has been no obstruction all through the proceedings on this Bill. We have done our best to improve the Bill, which we detest. We shall vote against this Schedule.
§ 5.22 p.m.
§ Mr. BAILEYI have only a few observations to make on the Concurrent List, raising a point which I have raised earlier and to which I did not then get a satisfactory answer. This Concurrent List does not embrace only a few subjects, but, one would be right in saying, probably 90 per cent. of the subjects concerned with purely domestic or internal matters. The list excludes all external questions, but in the sphere of domestic policy it gives the widest powers of legislation, including such subjects as the criminal law and the liberty of the subject—and I am sure the Government are anxious to guard the liberty of the subjects under the new regime; wills, intestacy, and succession—and I am sure the Government are anxious to secure justice for those who will be inheriting property; marriage laws; laws concerning the legal, medical and other professions, affecting all professional men; boilers; the prevention of cruelty to animals; mechanically propelled vehicles. I do not desire to read through the list, the samples I have given show how vast is the range of subjects affecting the lives of the people.
Both the Provincial Legislatures and the Federal Legislature can pass laws on subjects included in the Concurrent List, and it has been obvious to the Government that unless there was some clear demarkation of the rights of the respective legislatures there might be many occasions on which an anomalous position would arise owing to one legislature passing laws which absolutely contradicted those passed by the other. In order to avoid that the Government have made the provision, which in its intention is obvious and sensible, that where provincial legislation conflicts with federal legislation the provincial legislation shall give way to the federal. If the Bill secures that any criticism such as I am making at the moment goes by the board, but if, in fact, the Government have failed in carrying out their intention it 1588 will be possible for complete confusion to arise as to what laws the Federal Legislature may pass and what laws the Provincial Legislatures may pass. What an unhappy legacy we are handing to the Indian people. We know the difficulties which have arisen in the United States through conflict between federal and state legislation and jurisdiction, and here we are setting up the possibility of far wider divergence on a far more vast range of subjects. If the Clause dealing with repugnancy breaks down I venture to say, although it is not one of the main points of controversy, that on that rock alone the whole administration of this Measure might founder.
One thing to be regretted, although it was bound to be so in the nature of things, is that the Committee should have had to concentrate on great political issues and to leave aside the consideration of how the Measure will work administratively in matters which do not raise the great issues about which we feel so strongly. I submit that it will be exceedingly difficult to say what, in effect, a provincial legislature may and what it may not do under this provision. We shall have endless litigation. There is a point which I am raising in order that it may be clarified, because it was not made clear on an earlier occasion, when the Attorney-General did not answer the specific questions I put. I will ask the learned Solicitor-General to try to clarify those points now. I will take three subjects—the criminal law, the law of bankruptcy, and the law of marriage—and ask him how the Measure will work in regard to each. I will not say that the Attorney-General was embarrassed on the previous occasion, because I am sure he can never be embarrassed, but he did not answer the questions. Since then the Government have had several weeks to consider these, among other, points.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member is going beyond the bounds of order on this Schedule in asking those questions. The only question that can arise in a discussion on adding this Schedule to the Bill is the classification of the subjects in the Schedule. We cannot discuss the working of the Measure.
§ Mr. BAILEYI think it was more in the letter than in the spirit that I was trespassing beyond the bounds of order. I think I shall be in order in submitting 1589 that there really ought to be no Concurrent List and that the subjects ought to be in either the Federal List or the Provincial List, as a Concurrent List can only lead to embarrassment.
§ The CHAIRMANI must point out to the hon. Member that the Concurrent List has already been set up by a Clause in the Bill which has been passed.
§ Mr. BAILEYI will not pursue the matter any further. It is a question to which one would like an answer, but I take it that I should be definitely out of order if I were to ask what would be the powers of Provincial Legislatures under the Concurrent List?
§ The CHAIRMANYes.
§ Mr. BAILEYIf that question would be out of order, I beg the Committee's pardon for taking up time on a mistaken point which was not in order, and which I will raise upon some other occasion.
§ 5.31 p.m.
§ Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMSI have been somewhat shocked, during the discussions on this Schedule, at what I regard as a retrogressive move on the part of the Government. With great reluctance, I have become convinced of the value of Federation, and Amendments have been moved, one after another, pointing out very clearly that, although many of these subjects may be dealt with by a single Province, there must be a time when there will be an excellent example, such as that of the money-lenders, of a subject which would be far better taken in hand by the Federation so that there would be some method of putting pressure on the more backward Provinces in regard to their legislation. I hope that the seeming falling away of the Government from the Federal idea will not be carried too far. I see very clearly from speeches that have been made that it is essential to have more power than is conferred under the Lists, particularly for the purpose of bringing up some of the Provinces that are backward in legislation. A very large number of things which seem to go entirely to the Provinces.
I was amazed at the inclusion of State Lotteries. Are there really to be State lotteries in India? I hope not. I notice that the Attorney-General is absent when this matter is discussed.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member must not discuss the advisability or otherwise of legislation of a particular kind.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSI shall follow your Ruling most closely. I was only expressing my dislike, in these circumstances, for State lotteries, and my suggestion had nothing to do with legislation. The provision is inserted, and it looks as if we were once again seeing the hand of my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot). I regret that it was put in. However much the Government may feel pressure from some quarters to put this in I hope between now and the Report stage that they will look into the whole matter and omit the item if possible. I would appeal to their better senses that they should not be too pressed on this point by the hon. Member for Bodmin.
§ 5.35 p.m.
§ The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. J. C. Davidson)The hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) is suffering, I think, under some misapprehension, and be is perhaps a little too critical. He has brought too much into the sunlight the evils of money-lenders in India. Moneylenders may in some respects be an evil, but they serve a very useful purpose if they do not exceed the natural laws of human nature. He would have liked to see the item respecting money-lenders placed in the Federal List. May I mention, as a point of history behind the present situation, that there was a Central law called the Usurious Loans Act, but it was so vague—it had to be vague—as to be ineffective, and it was never put into operation. I can only repeat what has been said by the Under-Secretary of State that, so far from the Provinces in which Hindus are in a majority having failed to deal with the matter, the matter has been dealt with most drastically in the United Provinces, and quite drastically in Bengal. Perhaps I may draw from personal experience. It is a great mistake to think that such things can only be done under the guidance of British officials. In two Indian States which I can recall to mind, legislation, initiated entirely by Indians, has been passed to regulate the excessive operation of money-lenders, and to protect the agricultural community in those States. 1591 It is therefore a mistake to stress that point too much, and, although one acknowledges readily the great benefits that British officials have rendered to India, one must not think that Indians are not capable of realising the evils under which they live.
§ Sir H. CROFTWould the right hon. Gentleman say to which States he refers?
§ Mr. DAVIDSONI prefer not to do so in this instance lest there be misunderstanding, because I had failed to mention other States. In reply to the arguments adduced by the hon. Member for South Kensington. (Sir W. Davison) and the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), I would point out that we should have been going a very long way if we had said that, even though India desired a lottery, there should be provision to prevent her from having a lottery. It was felt, however, that lotteries should be provided for in the Federal List, because otherwise there might be every conceivable kind of lottery organised under different conditions. Anybody with experience of certain Continental countries knows the extent to which variety in this matter can run. It was also thought that it ought to be dealt with as an All-India subject, so that the conscience of the whole people should operate if India thought it desirable to introduce a lottery.
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI thoroughly agree with the right hon. Gentleman, as far as Federation is concerned. I take it that the intention is to keep the matter elastic, and not for the purpose of introducing it at any definite time?
§ Mr. DAVIDSONEntirely. I can give the hon. Member that assurance.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSVery great pressure has been put upon the Government by
§ one or two people, and I hope the Government will not respond to it.
§ Mr. DAVIDSONI can give the hon. Member a complete assurance on that point also. This is purely permissive. I hope it will never go out from this Committee that we have made any definite suggestion of any sort or kind that India should have a lottery.
§ The CHAIRMANI would remind hon. Members of the Ruling which I gave. Owing, perhaps, to good nature on my part, our discussion has become rather involved, and we are getting a little too far from the question.
§ Mr. DAVIDSONI find it very difficult to remain in order, and with the Committee's permission I will therefore curtail my remarks. We have had a very good discussion, and the Government have accepted one or two of the Amendments put forward from such an authority as the hon. Member for the English Universities (Sir R. Craddock). We have been pretty fair all round, and I hope that the Committee will now come to a decision.
§ Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSONIs there any particular reason why this should be in the Concurrent List?
§ Mr. BUTLERThe history of this is that on the Joint Select Committee we were particularly asked to make this subject concurrent in order that it might receive the attention it deserves. In response to that request, we decided to place it in that part of the Concurrent List.
§ Question put, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Seventh Schedule to the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 295; Noes, 36.
1595| Division No. 185.] | AYES. | [5.42 p.m. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Bernays, Robert | Caporn, Arthur Cecil |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Cautley, Sir Henry S. |
| Addison Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Blindell, James | Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Boulton, W. W. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) |
| Albery Irving James | Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) |
| Allen William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Braithwatte, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) |
| Apsley, Lord | Brass, Captain Sir William | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm. W) |
| Assheton, Ralph | Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) |
| Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Christie, James Archibald |
| Banfield, John William | Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Clarry, Reginald George |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Clayton, Sir Christopher |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Butler, Richard Austen | Cleary, J. J. |
| Batey, Joseph | Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Colfox, Major William Philip |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Pike, Cecil F. |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Iveagh, Countess of | Potter, John |
| Cooke, Douglas | Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) |
| Cooper, A. Duff | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Cooper, T. M. (Edinburgh, W.) | Jamieson, Douglas | Ramsden, Sir Eugene |
| Copeland, Ida | Janner, Barnett | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Jenkins, Sir William | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | John, William | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) | Rickards, George William |
| Daggar, George | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Rutherford, John (Edmonton) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Kirkwood, David | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Salt, Edward W. |
| Dickle, John P. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Dobbie, William | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Doran, Edward | Law, Sir Alfred | Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney) |
| Drewe, Cedric | Lawson, John James | Sandys, Duncan |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Savery, Samuel Servington |
| Dunglass, Lord | Leonard, William | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Eden, Rt. Hon. Anthony | Lewis, Oswald | Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) |
| Edwards, Charles | Liddall, Walter S. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter | Lindsay, Noel Ker | Shute, Colonel Sir John |
| Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Llewellin, Major John J. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n) | Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) | Loftus, Pierce C. | Somervell, Sir Donald |
| Fermoy, Lord | Logan, David Gilbert | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmln) | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Fraser, Captain Sir Ian | Lunn, William | Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | Mabane, William | Spens, William Patrick |
| Galbraith, James Francis Wallace | MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Stevenson, James |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Stones, James |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Stourton, Hon. John J. |
| George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Gillett, Sir George Masterman | McEntee, Valentine L. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North) |
| Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Glossop, C. W. H. | McKie, John Hamilton | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Gluckstein, Louie Halle | McLean, Major Sir Alan | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. |
| Goff, Sir Park | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart |
| Goldie, Noel B. | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Summersby, Charles H. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Sutcliffe, Harold |
| Granville, Edgar | Mallalien, Edward Lancelot | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Graves, Marjorie | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Thorne, William James |
| Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Griffith, F. Kinqsley (Middlesbro', W.) | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Meller, Sir Richard James | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Grimston, R. V. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Train, John |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Milne, Charles | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Milner, Major James | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale | Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline) |
| Guy, J. C. Morrison | Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir S. Eyres | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour. |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) | West, F. R. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Morrison, William Shepherd | White, Henry Graham |
| Hammersley, Samuel S. | Moss, captain H. J. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hanbury, Cecil | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Munro, Patrick | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Harris, Sir Percy | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Norie-Miller, Francis | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | North, Edward T. | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hn. William G. A. | Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Orr Ewing, I. L. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Paling, Wilfred | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division) | Parkinson, John Allen | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Holdsworth, Herbert | Patrick, Colin M. | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Peake, Osbert | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Hornby, Frank | Pearson, William G. | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Penny, Sir George | |
| Howard, Tom Forrest | Percy, Lord Eustace | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Sir Victor Warrender and Captain |
| Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Petherick, M. | Hope. |
| Hurd, Sir Percy | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Perkins, Walter R. D. |
| Alexander, Sir William | Fuller, Captain A. G. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Bailey, Eric Alfred George | Hales, Harold K. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast) |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) | Hartington, Marquess of | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Bracken, Brendan | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger | Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) | Lees-Jones, John | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Carver, Major William H. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Macquisten, Frederick Alexander | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Marsden, Commander Arthur | |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Moreing, Adrian C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Nunn, William | Sir William Davison and Major- |
| General Sir Alfred Knox. |
Question, "That the Schedule be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.