§ "In section forty-four of the Army Act (which relates to scales of punishment by court martial), all words after 'officers,' in line four, to the end of '(9) stoppages,' in line fifteen, to be deleted, and the word 'and' inserted in place thereof."—[Mr. Buchanan.]
2240§ sentation on public bodies. Would the right hon. Gentleman, be prepared to agree to make a concession with regard to the Sergeant-Major, and having done that and having had more time to think over the problem he might agree later to the private soldier receiving the same opportunity to serve on public bodies?
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 17; Noes, 101.
2239| Division No. 128.] | AYES. | [1.47 p.m. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Foot, Dingle (Dundee) | Thorns, William James |
| Batey, Joseph | Groves, Thomas E. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Cove, William G. | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Daggar, George | John, William | |
| Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) | Lansbury. Rt. Hon. George | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Dobbie, William | McEntee, Valentine L. | Mr. Maxton and Mr. Buchanan. |
| Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) | Rea, Walter Russell |
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Goff, Sir Park | Held, William Allan (Derby) |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.) | Goldie, Noel B. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) | Grimston, R. V. | Salmon, Sir Isidore |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney). |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes) | Sandys, Edwin Duncan |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Selley, Harry R. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. | Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. |
| Bllndell, James | Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) | Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) |
| Bossom, A. C. | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Bower, Commander Robert Tatton | Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Spens, William Patrick |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Stourton, Hon. John J. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Browne, Captain A. C. | Leckle, J. A. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Burgin. Dr. Edward Leslie | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Sueter, Rear-admiral Sir Murray F. |
| Campbell, Vice-admiral G. (Burnley) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) | Llewellin, Major John J. | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles |
| Clarke, Frank | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Tree, Ronald |
| Clayton, Sir Christopher | Mabane, William | Tutnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey | McLean, Major Sir Alan | Ward, Lt.-Col, Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Macquisten, Frederick Alexander | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Maitland, Adam | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Craven-Ellis, William | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Watt, Major George Steven H. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) | Wells, Sidney Richard |
| Donner, P. W. | Milne, Charles | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Moore, Lt.-Col, Thomas C. R. (Ayr) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George |
| Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Morrison, William Shephard | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Essenhigh, Reginald Clare | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | Nunn, William | |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Ramsay. T. B. W. (Western Isles) | Sir George Penny and Sir Walter |
| Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) | Womersley. |
§ 1.54 p.m.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThis new Clause raises more or less, but in a different aspect, the same point that was raised on the last Amendment. The object of our Amendments is to bring about equality between the officer and the serving soldier and to ensure that there shall be no discrimination in the future. In our last Amendment we sought to enable the private soldier to serve on a council 2241 with equal status with the officer. We propose that there shall be no discrimination in punishments as between a private soldier and an officer. That is the object of the new Clause. As it is drafted it may not make good reading, but that is our proposal. We want to get this matter decided on the broad principle rather than on technicalities, and the broad principle raised here is that as far as officers and men are concerned there should be no differentiation as regards punishments.
In the case of officers the punishments include death, penal servitude for not less than three years, imprisonment with or without hard labour for a period not exceeding two years, cashiering and dismissal from His Majesty's Service, severe reprimand, and so on. In the case of soldiers the penalties include death, penal servitude for not less than three years, imprisonment with or without hard labour for a period not exceeding two years, detention for a period not exceeding two years, discharge with ignominy from the Service, and so on. The punishment which seems most repulsive is that a private soldier is liable to be discharged with ignominy from His Majesty's service. There is no such punishment in the case of an officer. He can be cashiered; but that is not the same thing as being discharged with ignominy. If it is said that being cashiered is the same as being discharged with ignominy why is an offensive phrase applied to a private soldier and the word cashiered applied in the case of an officer? The two things may be the same in actual practice. There is no justification for this discrimination. We say that there should be one set of punishments for officers and men. We want equality in all matters as between officers and those in the ranks, and the new Clause proposes that in regard to punishments all classes in the Army shall be treated in exactly the same way.
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI suggest to the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) that he should move his new Clause in a slightly different form:
In section 44 of the Army Act (which relates to scales of punishment by courts-martial) all words after 'officers' in line 4, to the end of' (gg) stoppages,' in line 1.8, shall be deleted and the word 'and' inserted in place thereof.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThank you, I will move it in that form.