§ Lords Amendment: In page 158, line 2, leave out "chapter" and insert "and the subsequent chapters of this Part of this Act."
§ 7.14 p.m.
§ Mr. BUTLERI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment is a little more than drafting. Its purpose is to extend the scope of the provisions requiring the Secretary of State to act with the concurrence of his advisers. We have examined this part of the Bill and seek to add the powers conferred upon the Secretary of State by various provisions in Chapters 3 to 5 inclusive of Part 10. The powers are such that they ought in the interests of the services to be exercised only with the concurrence of the Secretary of State's advisers, and the Amendment produces this result. The powers, which are set out in the Section to which I have referred, are essential service questions which ought to be exercised in our view by the Secretary of State with the concurrence of his 2562 advisers. It really, however, does not add a very substantial point.
§ 7.15 p.m.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESI venture to disagree with the hon. Gentleman's statement that there is not very much in this matter. We took objection, when we were discussing this matter in the House before, to the limitation of the powers of the Secretary of State to make certain decisions except with the concurrence of his advisers. The power of his advisers is extended by these proposals, for the Secretary of State now may not take certain decisions with regard to the Public Services Commission nor may he make appointments to the chaplaincy and there is a certain type of general provisions in respect to which, again, his power is limited. Let me ask this question. On what ground is it reserved to the advisers to the Secretary of State that they shall be able to exercise a veto on the decision of the Secretary of State as to who shall be appointed a chaplain in India? By what conceivable argument can it be maintained, when these advisers are not answerable to this House? The advisers are there to advise the Secretary of State, to aid him in the ordinary way. He can accept their advice or reject it, but in this particular case he is absolutely bound hand and foot if his advisers determine to limit him in this way, or take objection to anything he proposes to do in respect to the Public Services Commission or any of the matters in Chapters IV and V.
I think there is a great principle in this matter. I do not want to cover ground which has been already covered before, but it raises the case of the extension of that principle. It is a big thing to give to advisers the right to circumscribe the decision of the Secretary of State. If you must have advisers well and good; I have no objection to that, but to give them the power of veto over the political chief of a Department is a rather big proposition. We are actually giving power to these advisers to exercise a veto upon recruitment in the Public Services Commission, and even to the ecclesiastical services. The Under-Secretary must not suggest that this is a small thing. It is a big thing to give to people who are not answerable to this House. If the decision is in the hands of the 2563 Secretary of State, we could question him and hold him responsible, but by this proposal, however much you might disagree with the advisers, it is the advisers' decision which stands. I do not think this is defensible and I do not think the Under-Secretary ought to have treated it so lightly as he appeared to do. Unless we are given to understand that there are better arguments than we have yet heard, we shall carry this to a Division.
§ 7.19 p.m.
§ Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXAs a democrat, I should like to support the Under-Secretary. It is far better that the Secretary of State should exercise his powers in conjunction with his advisers than that he should be an autocrat. The chances are that his advisers will know far more about these matters than he does himself. For these reasons I support the Amendment.
§ 7.20 p.m.
§ Mr. BUTLERWith the permission of the House I should like to say that I think the hon. Member misunderstood me when I stated that I did not attach importance to this proprosal. I did not consider that it introduced any new subject or new question for our consideration. I realise the hon. Member's feelings on the matter but we have disagreed
§ upon it before. It has been agreed that on certain Service questions, the Secretary of State shall be guided by the majority of his advisers. Having decided that point I think it is logical that all Service questions dealt with in this chapter should be susceptible to the same treatment. I think it is a logical development rather than an inference. Were it not so the Secretary of State would be continuously at loggerheads with his advisers. We consider that it is in the interests of the Service and largely at their wish that this Amendment should be accepted.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESTheir wish?
§ Mr. BUTLERWe naturally pay attention to the wishes of the Service. Their views were considered by Parliament and when we believe that their wishes coincide with justice and equity, we naturally include provisions in our Bill which will meet their desires. We think that this is a logical development of a principle previously conceded, and while recognising my hon. and gallant Friend's feelings on this matter I am afraid I cannot agree with him.
§ Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 209; Noes, 34.
2565| Division No. 308.] | AYES. | [7.22 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Gluckstein, Louis Halle |
| Alexander, Sir William | Conant, R. J. E. | Gower, Sir Robert |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Cooke, Douglas | Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Cooper, T. M. (Edinburgh, W.) | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Copeland, Ida | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Grimston, R. V. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Critchley, Brig.-General A. C. | Gritten, W. G. Howard |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Beit, Sir Alfred L. | Dalkeith, Earl of | Guy, J. C. Morrison |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. |
| Bracken, Brendan | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hales, Harold K. |
| Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. R.) | Dickie, John P. | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Donner, P. W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Doran, Edward | Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Duckworth, George A. V. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. Ernest (Leith) | Eales, John Frederick | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Browne, Captain A. C. | Eastwood, John Francis | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Burghley, Lord | Edmondson, Major Sir James | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Elmley, Viscount | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. Leslie |
| Burnett, John George | Emmott, Charles E. G. C. | Hornby, Frank |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Howard, Tom Forrest |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Hurd, Sir Percy |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chlppenham) | Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Ford, Sir Patrick J. | James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H. |
| Christie, James Archibald | Fraser, Captain Sir Ian | Jamieson, Rt. Hon. Douglas |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Fremantle, Sir Francis | Janner, Barnett |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) |
| Clayton, Sir Christopher | Ganzoni, Sir John | Ker, J. Campbell |
| Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univ.) | Nunn, William | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Kirkpatrick, William M. | O'Donovan, Dr. William James | Spens, William Patrick |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Stevenson, James |
| Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Orr Ewing, I. L. | Storey, Samuel |
| Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.) | Pearson, William G. | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Leckie, J. A. | Peat, Charles U. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Levy, Thomas | Percy, Lord Eustace | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart |
| Lewis, Oswald | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Summersby, Charles H. |
| Liddall, Walter S. | Petherick, M. | Sutcliffe, Harold |
| Lindsay, Noel Ker | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bliston) | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Llewellin, Major John J. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Lloyd, Geoffrey | Radford, E. A. | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) | Thomson, Sir Douglas. |
| Mabane, William | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) | Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. Sir Charles | Ramsbotham, Herwald | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| MacAndrew, Major J. O. (Ayr) | Reid, William Allan (Darby) | Touche, Gordon Cosmo |
| McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Remer, John R. | Train, John |
| McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Rickards, George William | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian | Robinson, John Roland | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Magnay, Thomas | Ropner, Colonel L. | Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline) |
| Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. |
| Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Runge, Norah Cecil | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. | Russell, R. J. (Eddlsbury) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Salmon, Sir Isidore | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) | Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney) | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Morgan, Robert H. | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) | Shute, Colonel Sir John | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Morrison, William Shepherd | Simmonds, Oliver Edwin | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Moss, Captain H. J. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | |
| Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. | Somervell, Sir Donald | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Munro, Patrick | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) | Mr. Blindell and Mr. James Stuart. |
| Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. Clement R. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Banfield, John William | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Paling, Wilfred |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Cleary, J. J. | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Jenkins, Sir William | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Daggar, George | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Davies, Stephen Owen | Lawson, John James | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Dobbie, William | Leonard, William | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Edwards, Sir Charles | Logan, David Gilbert | Wilmot, John |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Lunn, William | |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Gibbins, J. | McEntee, Valentine L. | Mr. Graham and Mr. Groves. |
Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill" put, and agreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 171, line 30, agreed to.