§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ 10.51 p.m.
§ Viscount WOLMERThis Clause really raises the same principle in a more extreme form, and perhaps this will give the Attorney-General an opportunity of making the position clear. The point of the Clause is quite simple but here we are really faced with one of the fundamental difficulties of Federation; and even after all the time spent on Clause 200 I am not quite clear that I do not think the Committee are clear as to how far it extends. Clause 201 raises a very simple, direct issue, though a vitally important one. It says:
Where in any case the Federal Court require a special case to be stated or restated by, or remit a case to, a High Court in a Federated State, or require the aid of the civil or judicial authorities in a Federated State, the Federal Court shall cause letters of request in that behalf to be sent to the Ruler of the State, and the Ruler shall cause such communication to be made to the High Court or to any judicial or civil authority as the circumstances may require.The question I want to ask the Attorney-General is what would happen if the Ruler of a State refused to obey that Clause? If he will tell me that he will tell me exactly what the effect of the Clause is.
§ 10.53 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALThis Clause is framed in this way in order that the appropriate phrase, "letters of request" may be used in regard to a Sovereign Ruler instead of the expression of a direct order to, or something of that sort. Any lawyer is familiar with the expression "letters of request," which is a phrase used when one Sovereign Ruler has to make a communication to another with regard to the performance of some act necessary for the administration of justice in the first of the two countries. In this Clause it is merely an enactment to show proper respect to a Sovereign Ruler, without the necessity of an order being directed to him to state a case, that letters of request shall be addressed to him. Then I am asked what is to happen if a Ruler does not comply with the request contained in the last two or three lines of the Clause. I entirely 166 decline to contemplate that a Ruler will not comply with the request. It is found in practice between Sovereign States that when letters of request are addressed it is not customary to decline to act upon them, and I do not think that that situation will arise.
§ 10.54 p.m.
§ Viscount WOLMERI am rying to find out whether the Ruler of a Federated State is in the position of a functionary of the Federation or whether he is an independent Sovereign. My right hon. Friend really has no right to draw back in a tone of voice as if I was saying something either indecent or grossly disrespectful to the whole order of Princes. That is not the point at all. The point is that when you are revising a Constitution it is an elementary consideration that you should see that the thing reads, as it were. You should see, in constructing the machine, that the cogwheels fit and that you are putting on the Statute Book a Clause which is capable of being worked. Every Constitution, every working machine, has some outward sanction. If the Attorney-General, to take a concrete instance, was instructed by the proper authorities to do something which it was his duty to do, and he refused, there is a remedy known to the British Constitution. I am not suggesting that my right hon. and learned Friend would ever be so forgetful of his duty as to put himself in such a position; I am only pointing out that if he refused to carry out an order given him by the proper authority to do something which it was his duty to do, there is a complete remedy known to our Constitution. He would lose his job, and another Atttorney-General would be found in his place.
What is the outward sanction here? What is going to happen if a Ruler refuses to carry out his instructions? The importance of this point is that from the beginning there has been confusion or thought as to whether this is to be a Federation of independent sovereign States or whether all the members of the Federation are members of one political entity. That difficulty will crop up at various points, and we are certainly bound to examine them wherever they do crop up. If you slur over them in discussing them in this Bill, you will not remove the difficulty, which will crop up directly 167 you try to put the Federation into being or directly the Princes have been able to examine the matter further with the aid of their legal advisers. Therefore, I say it is monstrous for the Attorney-General to treat this as a most improper question to bring up or as something which, if I was a. decently minded person, I should not think of doing. I want to know how sanction is to be given to this Clause. Is the Ruler of the State.
§ a functionary of the Federation or an independent sovereign?
§ Mr. BAILEYThis is such an important point that I hope the Attorney-General will reply.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 211; Noes, 27.
169| Division No.134.] | AYES. | [10.58 p.m. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Fraser, Captain Sir Ian | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. |
| Albery, Irving James | Fremantle, Sir Francis | McKie, John Hamilton |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Fuller, Captain A. G. | McLean, Major Sir Alan |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Assheton, Ralph | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Mainwaring, William Henry |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gillett, Sir George Masterman | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gluckstain, Louis Halle | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Goff, Sir Park | Martin, Thomas B. |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Goldle, Noel B. | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Bateman, A. L. | Gower, Sir Robert | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Batey, Joseph | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Milne, Charles |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) | Milner, Major James |
| Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel | Grimston, R. V. | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale |
| Blindell, James | Groves, Thomas E. | Moors, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Grundy, Thomas W. | Moreing, Adrian C. |
| Bower, Commander Robert Tatton | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Morrison, William Shepherd |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hammersley, Samuel S. | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Hanbury, Cecil | Munro, Patrick |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | O'Donovan, Dr. William James |
| Burghley, Lord | Harvey, Major Sir Samuel (Totnes) | Orr Ewing, I. L. |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Paling, Wilfred |
| Burnett, John George | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Butler, Richard Austen | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Hicks, Ernest George | Patrick, Colin M. |
| Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley) | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Pearson, William G. |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Penny, Sir George |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) | Hornby, Frank | Percy, Lord Eustace |
| Cleary, J. J. | Horsbrugh, Florence | Petherick, M. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. | Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Ramsay T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Ramsbotham, Herwald |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Ramsden, Sir Eugene |
| Copeland, Ida | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L | Jamieson, Douglas | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Jenkins, Sir William | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | John, William | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Ker, J. Campbell | Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) |
| Cross, R. H. | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Salmon, Sir Isidore |
| Daggar, George | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Sandys, Duncan |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Lawson, John James | Simmonds, Oliver Edwin |
| Davies, Stephen Owen | Leckie, J. A. | Smith, Sir J. Walker-(Barrow-in-F.) |
| Dickle, John P. | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Duckworth, George A. V. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Somervell, Sir Donald |
| Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Liddall, Walter S. | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E: |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Lindsay, Noel Ker | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Dunglass, Lord | Llewellin, Major John J. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) |
| Eastwood, John Francis | Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) | Stevenson, James |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter | Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Stones, James |
| Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Loftus, Pierce C. | Storey, Samuel |
| Eimley, Viscount | Logan, David Gilbert | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North) |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ) | Lunn, William | Sutcliffe, Harold |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Mabane, William | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Fleming, Edward Lasceiles | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles |
| Foot, Dingle (Dundee) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Whiteside, Borras Noel H. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George |
| Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) | |
| Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. | Wilmot, John | Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward |
| Waterhouse, Captain Charles | Wilson, Lt..-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) | and Sir Walter Womersley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. (Blackpool) | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Everard, W. Lindsay | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Bailey, Eric Alfred George | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Thorp, Linton Theodore |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Greene, William P. C. | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Brown, Brig-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Hartington, Marquess of | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Knox, Sir Alfred | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Davison, Sir William Henry | Lees-Jones, John | |
| Donner, P. W. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Emmott, Charles E. G. C. | Remer, John R. | Mr. Raikes and Mr. Lennox-Boyd. |
Resolution agreed to.