§ Question again proposed, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ 5.43 p.m.
§ Mr. McKEAGAt one stage I thought I should find myself in agreement with the hon. and learned Member for Norwood (Sir W. Greaves-Lord) when he suggested that the position might possibly be met by the court being given power to convict on the lesser offence. I agree with that course of action, but I object, as others have already objected, to this new departure in the procedure of a court of summary jurisdiction, because, if my recollection be correct, Section 12 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, was inserted specifically for the benefit of motorists, so that, when there was any doubt whatever as to the possibility of obtaining a conviction on a charge of dangerous driving, the procedure of a charge of careless driving would be available, and the motorist would not be subjected to a serious charge when actually his offence was perhaps due only to a momentary error of judgment, or was at any rate an offence of a comparatively trivial character.
The effect of the Clause is going to be very far-reaching when one has regard to the figures of the convictions for 1932. The convictions for driving recklessly or in a dangerous manner were 3,068, whereas the convictions for careless driving were no fewer than 15,542. We all object to the multiplicity of summonses that there has been since the Road Traffic Act, 1930. If this Clause be passed, the position of motorists will be infinitely 1355 worse, because it will simply mean that, instead of issuing a summons for dangerous driving and an additional summons for careless driving in the hope that if they do not get the motorist on the swings they will get him on the roundabouts, whenever a motorist commits an offence for which there is the remotest possible chance of obtaining a conviction for dangerous driving, they will issue a summons on the more serious charge. I do not see that any time is going to be saved to the courts by a power of this sort being given to lay magistrates, and I hope enough has been said to induce the Minister to reconsider the matter and take the view that this is a power which ought not to be placed in the hands of courts of summary jurisdiction. It will also entirely negative the real object of inserting Section 12 in the Road Traffic Act, and will be very much to the detriment of motorists in general.
§ 5.48 p.m.
§ Sir W. BRASSI think that the Clause will lead to slackness among the police in giving evidence. They will not trouble to find out whether the driver has been really driving to the public danger or whether he has committed a minor offence. He will not have an opportunity of knowing what the summons is for, but will simply be summoned on the major offence. Sections 11 and 12 of the Road Traffic Act are absolutely and entirely different things. Section 11 is very serious indeed. It says that, if a person drives at a speed or in a manner dangerous to the public having regard to the nature, the conditions and the use of the road, he shall, on summary conviction, be fined not exceeding £50 or imprisoned for a term not exceeding four months. Later on it is suggested that he might be able to be convicted for something entirely different. Section 12 does not mention careless driving except in the margin. It says that, if a person drives a motor vehicle on the road without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other people, he shall be guilty of an offence. It was put in specifically by Mr. Morrison in order that people who had committed only minor offences could be brought before the court. It was never suggested that these two things should be alterna- 1356 tive and that summonses should be issued for a serious offence and, that serious offence not being able to be proved, the person who had not been convicted of it could afterwards be prosecuted for a minor offence. I think it will lead to a great deal of slackness and a very large number of prosecutions for the major offence, which is a very serious matter indeed. For that reason, I hope that the Government will not press the Clause; if they do, I think we should divide against it.
§ Mr. REMERMy hon. and gallant Friend and I were on the Road Traffic Committee together and I should like to confirm what he has said. Mr. Morrison said, not once but many times, that the sole object of putting the Clause in was that the minor charge should be placed before the courts. The pledge given then is now being made into a far more serious thing, and is going to place a very serious obligation upon motorists.
§ 5.53 p.m.
§ Mr. E. WILLIAMSThe purpose of the Clause is to avoid additional expense and, perhaps, unnecessary delay but it is far more important that we should not sacrifice the interests of justice. It is a smaller matter that two summonses to be issued and that delay should take place than that the motorist should suffer injustice.
§ 5.54 p.m.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI should certainly agree with the proposition that the interests of justice should not be outweighed by the interests of expense and, if I thought there was the slightest chance of any injustice to anyone under the Clause, I should not be moving it. When the point was raised in Committee, no one took any objection in principle to the Amendment. The hon. and gallant Member for Uxbridge (Major Llewellin) was perfectly relevant in referring to the fact that in the case of proceedings by indictment a person accused of a more serious charge can be convicted on a lesser charge. That shows that this principle is enshrined in our law, and it has never been found to work injustice in cases of the most serious character. For instance, on an indictment for murder a jury can be directed to convict for manslaughter. It has been suggested that the police would recklessly lay 1357 informations for charges of dangerous driving when the evidence did not justify it, but I ask the House to repudiate that suggestion. What motive could the police have for framing an indictment for murder on the ground that, if they did not succeed in that, they could succeed on the lower charge.
§ Sir W. BRASSIn that case there is at least a corpse.
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI cited an extreme case. Let me take the case of grievous bodily wounding or indecent assault, in which case the person can be convicted of common assault. That gets rid of the body. In the area of serious crime this principle has never been found to work any injustice and I ask the House not to be influenced by the suggestion, for which there is no evidence, that the police are going to rely on this to bring wanton charges of dangerous driving. So far as the principles of justice are concerned, already by a subsequent summons a man could be brought a second time, at great personal inconvenience, before the court and charged under Section 12. With regard to the case put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Norwood (Sir W. Greaves-Lord) of a man charged under Section 11 electing to go to assizes, the position will be exactly as it is at present.
§ Sir W. GREAVES-LORDUnless the court has the power to convict on the alternative charge the man, although acquitted at, the assizes, might be proceeded against on an information under Section 12 for careless driving, whereas if the court were given the alternative right to convict on the minor offence, though the major offence was charged, the man would be saved from the possibility of subsequent proceedings.
§ Mr. McKEAGMay I ask the learned Solicitor-General if there is a record of a single case in which a man acquitted of the more serious charge of dangerous driving has been subsequently charged with the lesser offence of driving carelessly?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALI am told that there are many. There must be many cases where it would be right that such a man should be charged, and where the evidence makes it quite clear that he 1358 was guilty of careless driving. It may be that under the present procedure, owing to the fact that it would mean dragging the man back again and hearing all the evidence again, that that is not done, but it would be right, if on the evidence it was plain that the man had committed an offence, that he should not get off scot free, but should submit himself to such penalty as this House has said may be inflicted upon those who commit that offence.
Thas has rather put me off the answer to the point, as I understand it, put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Norwood. The point which he wanted me to consider was whether, in the event of a case under Section 11 coming to the High Court, that court ought not to have similar power to that already in the Bill. We will certainly consider that point and see whether the case which he puts can be met, and, if necessary, dealt with at a later stage. I hope that I have shown enough to relieve any apprehensions there may have been that this could work injustice. The principle is found in our law already in cases where, as in this case, the evidence must be the same. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) both referred to the differences between Section 11 and Section 12. I fully appreciate and accept what they say. It is fair to emphasise that Section 11 not only deals with dangerous but with reckless driving. The reason why we suggest to the House that a provision of this kind can inflict no injustice is that the evidence which goes to show that there has been reckless driving must be the same as the evidence which goes to show that there has been careless driving.
§ Mr. JANNERWould the learned Solicitor-General tell us whether, according to this Clause, it will be possible, even after a defendant had been put into the witness-box and his evidence had been taken, and he had been cross-examined, whether counsel were present or not, for him to be charged immediately with the other offence and possibly not have an opportunity of obtaining counsel to assist him?
§ The SOLICITOR-GENERALMy hon. Friend must read the Clause. I think someone suggests that excessive safeguards 1359 have been put in. The defendant has to be informed of the new charge and given an opportunity of cross-examining any witness whose evidence has already been given against the defendant or otherwise, and the court are given powers regarding an adjournment if the defendant is prejudiced in his defence by reason of the new charge. But, really, when we
§ get to realities and consider that here is evidence called on a charge of dangerous driving and that the only question is whether we can support a charge of careless driving, I suggest that the safeguards in the Bill are more than ample.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 31.
1361| Division No. 308.] | AYES. | [6.5 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Edmondson, Major Sir James | Mabane, William |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Edwards, Charles | MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick) |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Elmley, Viscount | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Emmott Charles E. G. C. | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Foot, Dingle (Dundee) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Fremantle, Sir Francis | McEntee, Valentine L. |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Galbraith, James Francis Wallace | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. |
| Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Ganzoni, Sir John | McKie, John Hamilton |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Gardner, Benjamin Walter | McLean, Major Sir Alan |
| Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Macmillan, Maurice Harold |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Macquisten, Frederick Alexander |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Gillett, Sir George Masterman | Magnay, Thomas |
| Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest |
| Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel | Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C. | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Bernays, Robert | Goff, Sir Park | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. | Goldie, Noel B. | Marsden, Commander Arthur |
| Blindell, James | Granville, Edgar | Martin, Thomas B. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Greaves-Lord, Sir Waiter | Milne, Charles |
| Bower, Commander Robert Tatton | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Molson, A. Hugh Elidale |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Moreing, Adrian C. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypoot) | Morgan, Robert H. |
| Buchan, John | Groves, Thomas E. | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Hales, Harold K. | Morrison, William Shepherd |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Moss, Captain H. J. |
| Burnett, John George | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Nathan, Major H. L. |
| Burton, Colonel Henry Walter | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Harris, Sir Percy | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) |
| Cape, Thomas | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld) |
| Carver, Major William H. | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. | Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) | Nunn, William |
| Cautley, Sir Henry s. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | O'Connor, Terence James |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) | Hepworth, Joseph | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Hope, Cant. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Patrick, Colin M. |
| Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie | Pearson, William G. |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Christie, James Archibald | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Radford, E. A. |
| Clarke, Frank | Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hurd, Sir Percy | Ramsay T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Ramsden, Sir Eugene |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Jenkins, Sir William | Rankin, Robert |
| Cooke, Douglas | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) |
| Copeland, Ida | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Ker, J. Campbell | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Rickards, George William |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Kimball, Lawrence | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas |
| Crossley, A. C. | Knight, Holford | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. |
| Daggar, George | Knox, Sir Alfred | Runge, Norah Cecil |
| Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Davies, Stephen Owen | Law, Sir Alfred | Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside) |
| Davison, Sir William Henry | Lawson, John James | Salmon, Sir Isldore |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Leckie, J. A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Denville, Alfred | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Dickie, John P. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart |
| Dobbie, William | Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Donner, P. W. | Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Drewe, Cedric | Llewellin, Major John J. | Scone, Lord |
| Drummond-Wolff, H. M. C. | Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Eales, John Frederick | Lunn, William | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Smith, Tom (Normanton) | Touche, Gordon Cosmo | Williams, Thomas (York., Don Valley) |
| Somervell, Sir Donald | Train, John | Willoughby de Eresby, Lord |
| Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) | Tree, Ronald | Wilmot, John |
| Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel Georgs |
| Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) | Withers, Sir John James |
| Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) | Wallace, John (Dunfermline) | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Stones, James | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Strauss, Edward A. | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | |
| Summersby, Charles H. | Watt, Captain George Steven H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) | Weymouth, Viscount | Captain Sir George Bowyer and |
| Thorne, William James | Whyte, Jardine Bell | Major George Davies. |
| Tinker, John Joseph | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Janner, Barnett | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Lees-Jones, John | Remer, John R. |
| Buchanan, George | Levy, Thomas | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Clarry, Reginald George | McKeag, William | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.) |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot | White, Henry Graham |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Fuller, Captain A. G. | Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) | |
| Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Milner, Major James | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. | Sir Gifford Fox and Captain |
| Holdsworth, Herbert | Pickering, Ernest H. | Strickland. |
| Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd) | Rea, Walter Russell |
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.