§ Notwithstanding anything in section nine of the principal Act a person under twenty-one years of age shall not drive on a road a heavy goods vehicle within the meaning of section twenty-eight of this Act the weight of which unladen exceeds one ton and a half.—[Mr. D. Grenfell.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
1374§ 7.9 p.m.
§ Mr. D. GRENFELLI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
The conditions under which licences are granted are laid down in Section 9 of the principal Act, in which are the words:
"(3) A person under twenty-one years of age shall not drive a heavy locomotive, light locomotive, motor tractor or heavy motor car on a road unless on first applying for a licence—"
That is the provision which determines the age at which licences shall be granted to young persons. Section 2 (1, d) of the same Act defines heavy motor cars as:
mechanically propelled vehicles (not being vehicles classified under this section as motor cars) which are constructed themselves to carry a load or passengers, and the weight of which unladen exceeds two tons and a half:It may be observed that in the Clause which we now offer to the House the weight of the vehicle unladen is not to exceed 30 cwt. The reason for this pro-vision is that there has been very considerable change in the construction of motor vehicles. Considerable improvements have been made, which mean that the same carrying capacity has been achieved with a considerable saving in the volume of material in the construction of the chassis and all the parts of the vehicle. A document has been sent to me, in common, I suppose, with all hon. Members of the House, from the Transport Workers' Federation. I shall not weary the House by reading it in its entirety, but there are one or two points in it which should be brought to the attention of the House. A very instructive comparison is made between vehicles of to-day and those of a few years ago. The document says:In the last year or two there has been considerable development in the construction of goods vehicles with the result that vehicles of an unladen weight below the limit mentioned are now able to carry very heavy loads.Illustrations of this fact can be taken from the advertisements in the technical press. For instance, a description of a six-wheeled vehicle published last month contains the following details:
| Tons. | Cwt. | ||
| Chassis weight | … | 1 | 19 |
| Body allowance | … | 8 | |
| Driver | … | 1¼ | |
| Fuel, equipment, etc. | … | 1 | |
| Total unladen weight | … | 2 | 9¼" |
§ So skilfully has its construction been carried out by the manufacturer that the total unladen weight of this vehicle now stands at 2 tons 9¼ cwt., which is below the 2 ton 10 cwt. which is the limit of a heavy vehicle. This accounts for a great deal. Because this vehicle is under 2 tons 10 cwt. its speed can be increased in accordance with the law and regulations to 30 miles an hour. If that vehicle had weighed one cwt. more, its speed would have been reduced to 20 miles an hour. The House can see that there is considerable advantage to a firm in employing this vehicle rather than one with an unladen weight beyond the limit.
§ We must have regard, therefore, not only to the comparative unladen weight but to the speed at which this vehicle travels on the road. A vehicle of 2 tons 9¼ cwt. and, indeed, a vehicle of 30 cwt., travelling at 30 miles an hour is almost as unmanageable as a vehicle of 50 cwt. travelling at 20 miles an hour. The difference is not very great. But the unladen weight is not the whole of the story. We find that the lighter vehicle can now carry a heavier load than the heavier vehicle could, and when you come to compare the weights of the loaded vehicles you find that there is no difference at all between them. Let me show what this vehicle of 2 tons 9¼ cwt. unladen weight will carry. It is claimed to carry a pay-load of 4 tons, and when fully loaded will weigh 6 tons. 9¼ cwt. It carries as much as will a vehicle of unladen weight 3 tons which was constructed only three years ago. In view of this greater carrying capacity and greater laden weight we think that the standard of 2 tons 10 cwt. should be reduced, and that no young person under 21 should be allowed to be in charge of or to drive a vehicle of greater unladen weight than 30 cwt.
1376§ The transport industry is not entirely immune from unemployment. It is definitely wrong for this House or the Ministry of Transport or the Traffic Commissioners or anyone concerned to encourage the employment of people who are too young for these important and onerous duties. There is no reason why young boys under 21 should be allowed to drive these vehicles when there are numbers of drivers of 21 and over seeking employment. Because of the various considerations involved, which are well known to the Minister, I hope he will give some fresh consideration to this matter and accept the new Clause. 1 feel that on every ground it is fully justified.
§ 7.16 p.m.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAMI listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell). I think the main argument really came at the end, when he pointed out the necessity of employing older men in the transport industry. With regard to what he said about construction and development in the motor industry, I can assure him that my hon. Friend will keep a close watch on that side of the problem. We see no reason, as things are at the present time, to accept the new Clause. We feel that young men are perfectly capable of managing these vehicles, and the statistics really do not show that accidents are due to the employment of young men in these posts. We are not prepared to accept the proposed Clause, because we do not believe it is necessary at the present time.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 30; Noes, 206.
1377| Division No. 310.] | AYES. | [7.18 p.m. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Grenfell, David Bees (Glamorgan) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding) | Smith. Tom (Normanton) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Thorne, William James |
| Capo, Thomas | Jenkins, Sir William | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lawson, John James | West, F. R. |
| Cove, William G. | Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Logan, David Gilbert | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Daggar, George | Lunn, William | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Dobbie, William | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | |
| Edwards, Charles | McEntee, Valentine L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Milner, Major James | Mr. Tinker and Mr. Groves. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J. |
| Albery, Irving James | Aske, Sir Robert William | Balfour, George (Hampstead) |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Atholl, Duchess of | Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) | Radford, E. A. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Borodale, Viscount | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) |
| Bower, Commander Robert Tatton | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) | Ramsay T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Hepworth, Joseph | Rankin, Robert |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Holdsworth, Herbert | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Horsbrugh, Florence | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Burton, Colonel Henry Walter | Hume, Sir George Hopwood | Remer, John R. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Rickards, George William |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Janner, Barnett | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Carver, Major William H. | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas |
| Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) | Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Ker, J. Campbell | Rothschild, James A. de |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Kimball, Lawrence | Runge, Norah Cecil |
| Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside) |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Salmon, Sir Isldore |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Law, Sir Alfred | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Leckie, J. A. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart |
| Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- | Savory, Samuel Servington |
| Cooke, Douglas | Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest | Scone, Lord |
| Copeland, Ida | Llewellin, Major John J. | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro) | Mabane, William | Somervell, Sir Donald |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Mac Andrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick) | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Crossley, A. C. | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Spens, William Patrick |
| Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | McKeag, William | Stevenson, James |
| Davison, Sir William Henry | McKie, John Hamilton | Stones, James |
| Denman, Hon. R. O. | McLean, Major Sir Alan | Storey, Samuel |
| Denville, Alfred | Macqulsten, Frederick Alexander | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Doran, Edward | Magnay, Thomas | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Drewe, Cedric | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart |
| Drummond-Wolff, H. M. C. | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot | Summersby, Charles H. |
| Duckworth, George A. V. | Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.) |
| Eales, John Frederick | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Eastwood, John Francis | Marsden, Commander Arthur | Touche, Gordon Cosmo |
| Edmondson, Major Sir James | Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) | Train, John |
| Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Elmley, Viscount | Milne, Charles | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Emrys- Evans, P. V. | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale | Wallace, John (Dunfermline) |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Moreing, Adrian C. | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Foot, Dingle (Dundee) | Morgan, Robert H. | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour- |
| Fox, Sir Gilford | Morrison, William Shaphard | Weymouth, Viscount |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | Moss, Captain H. J. | White, Henry Graham |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Nail-Cain, Hon. Ronald | Whyte, Jardine Bell |
| Gillett, Sir George Masterman | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Goff, Sir Park | Nunn, William | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Granville, Edgar | O'Connor, Terence James | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. | Withers, Sir John James |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Palmer, Francis Noel | Womersley, Sir Walter |
| Grenfell, E. C. (City of London) | Patrick, Colin M. | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Pearson, William G. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Guy, J. C. Morrison | Peat, Charles U. | |
| Hales, Harold K. | Penny, Sir George | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) | Sir Frederick Thomson and Lieut.- |
| Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Pybus, Sir Percy John | Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward. |