§ 4.1 p.m.
§ Mr. TINKERI beg to move, in page 2, line 29, to leave out the words "county aldermen and."
May I be allowed to make a suggestion? Seeing that this Amendment raises the same point as subsequent Amendments on Clause 17, might we take the discussion on the others at the same time?
The CHAIRMANI am not quite sure how far the arguments in regard to the question raised in this Amendment will be the same as are applicable to the later Amendment. If the arguments in regard to the later Amendment are not substantially the same as on the first, I do not think I could allow the Amendments to be discussed together, but if the arguments are substantially the same on both Amendments I have no objection to the hon. Member referring to the fact that he has the two Amendments down, and applying his arguments to both.
§ The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young)Subject to your approval, Sir Dennis, as it is very probable that the substance of the arguments will be the same, I can see no objection to the hon. Member dealing with the two Amendments together.
§ Mr. TINKERIn the first place, I regret very much having to bring this matter before the Committee, because I realise from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman last week that this is a consolidation Measure which has taken a long time to bring into its present form. As the right hon. Gentleman said, it repeals 47 Acts and 33 Schedules, and it contains 306 Clauses and 11 Schedules. While we realise the difficulties, at the same time one cannot allow certain parts of the Bill to pass without calling atten- 766 tion to matters which are directly opposite to the views one holds. The question of the appointment of aldermen seems to me to be altogether outside the scope of what we want to do. I have been trying to find out why this provision was brought forward, but I have been unable to do so. Whatever may have been the reason for aldermen when they were first appointed, for the life of me I cannot see any need for them at the present time. I must leave it to other hon. Members to argue the case for them. I am going to put the negative side to show why they are not required.
I would point out that in the constitution of the councils, both in the counties and in the boroughs, one-third are aldermen appointed by the members of the elected councils. The aldermen do not go before the public, but when the councils are appointed they decide who the aldermen shall be, half of them retiring and half being elected for six years. The position therefore created is that local government work can be carried on by a number of people who have not been before the electorate. It is because of that that I am anxious at the outset to put that matter in its proper place. I can quote instances to prove my point that the balance of power may be entirely opposite to the wish of the electors. I have a recent instance in mind. I represent the Leigh Division of Lancashire. We have a borough and two district councils. At the last election for the borough, what we call Labour or Socialist representation was raised to 11 out of the 24 members. The opposition parties had 13. There has been an election of aldermen. They have re-elected three out of four, leaving the balance in the council 19, as against 13; so that in the next election, if we get a balance of the accredited votes of the people for the councillors, yet we shall be in a minority in the work of the council. It will leave us then with 13 councillors and two aldermen—15 out of the 32, leaving the balance of power in the opposition camp. That is a travesty of local government.
We look upon local government, probably, with a keener interest than do Members of the Government. We know that Members of the Government say that there ought to be no political views in local government, yet all the time underneath that argument they are trying to get their point of view advanced by re- 767 turning their people to the councils. We, on these benches, make no bones about it at all. We declare emphatically that it is our intention to get power on the local councils as well as in Parliament, and therefore we try to persuade the electors that our representation is best, and we do it openly and fairly. It may be argued that we want stability and men of experience to tell the new council exactly what has happened, so as to guide them in the proper channels, but we find that when it suits either what is called the Socialist party or what is called the Conservative party they can at any time put up all the aldermen and put up fresh ones in their place if desired, so that the question of long service, guidance or stability are just at the whim of the council. I claim that that is no defence for aldermen.
If it is argued that a larger council is necessary, we can have additional councillors, and an election every four years, and so get continuity of work and experience over a longer period. In place of the aldermen, we could have additional councillors, so that everyone would have to go before the electors every four years. We have district councils, a smaller edition of the borough and county councils, with exactly the same kind of work to accomplish, though on a smaller scale; yet Parliament at a later period determined that there was no requirement for non-elected people to serve on those bodies. In the case of a district council everyone has to go before the electorate every three years. If district councillors can do their work efficiently, I say there is no reason why the county councils and the borough councils need be treated differently in the matter of aldermen.
§ Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHTThey have a very much smaller jurisdiction.
§ Mr. TINKERI quite agree that it is much smaller, but it is on similar lines to the others. It has always been held that the greater should govern the lesser, and, therefore, if necessary for the bigger body, one would have thought it would be necessary for the smaller body. If I remember rightly, the organisation of district councils came about in 1896 at a later period than the borough councils or the county councils, and Parliament must have realised at that time that 768 there was no need for aldermen. And so we have in this consolidating Measure an ancient thing continued. Whatever good it might have done in those days, it certainly is not necessary now. I can see not the slightest use for it. If we cannot deal with it in this Consolidation Bill, then I invite an expression of opinion from the Committee as to why this should be kept in.
It will no doubt be urged that controversy may smash this Bill, but if we do not make a protest at a time like this about any point in regard to which we disagree, we shall be lacking, in our duty. Only last week on a Bill which came before the House with regard to women, an hon. Member put the point that unless they did something now, when the Bill became consolidated there would be less chance of getting the reform that was required. I make the same plea to-day, that if we do not make a protest against what is incorporated in this Bill, it will be rightly urged that no protest was made on the consolidating Measure.
§ 4.14 p.m.
§ Mr. MICHAEL BEAUMONTBefore saying anything else, I want to repudiate, with some heat, the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) that Members on that side are any more interested in, or keen on, local government than Members on this side. I venture definitely to say that on this side, both here and outside the House, we can claim a record comparable with—I do not say superior to, because we know what Members opposite have done—but in every way comparable with Members opposite in regard to loyal government, and in saying anything to the contrary he is acting ungenerously.
§ Mr. TINKERThat was not the point I had in mind. I had in mind the remark which the hon. Member made in his speech the other night when he said:
Most Members of the House will agree that anything that would tend to increase the influence of party politics on local elections is also bad."—[0FFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1933; col. 273,Vol.281.]I felt that most Members would regard that as referring to us on these benches, as persons who take a politicial view of local government, and it was that to which I was referring.
§ Mr. BEAUMONTI thank the hon. Member very much for the explanation 769 which, of course, puts an entirely different complexion on his words. I think he will admit, on reflection, that they were open to misconstruction. Coming to this Amendment, I say with all respect that I think he has been a little ungenerous in putting forward this question at this stage. We all know that this is a long and complicated Bill which, if it is to be passed, must be passed through all its stages this week; and if all of us were to urge not only points of vital principle, such as this, but even matters of detail in which we think the Bill errs, there would be no chance of passing it into law this Session. When I first saw this Bill I drafted 30 sets of what I believe were not very controversial Amendments, but when I looked at the Bill and at the time available for its consideration I scrapped 27 of them, because I realised that it was better to get the Bill at almost any price than to waste time on too many Amendments. The hon. Member feels strongly on this point, but my friends and I have other points on which we feel equally strongly, including the abolition of 60 percent. of the councils of this country and the curtailing of the powers of the remainder. We think it is just as important and reasonable to consider them as the hon. Member considers it important to discuss the abolition of aldermen, and I hope very much that this Amendment will not be pressed.
It seemed to me that most of the argument in the hon. Member's speech was directed not so much to the abolition of aldermen as to the institution of a system of Proportional Representation for them. He gave the case of his own local council, and said that under the present system of election of aldermen it might be possible to have a council with a majority contrary to the will of the electors. I do not regard that as seriously as he, does. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I do not. But accepting his argument, the remedy for that is not the abolition of aldermen, it is Proportional Representation for aldermen. That has often been urged, and although I do not agree with it there is, of course, something to be said for it; but that is quite distinct from removing from a council people who are, very often, of extreme value, and yet for various reasons cannot—or it is undesirable that they should 770 —seek election at the hands of the electors.
First of all the hon. Member's argument was that aldermen might not represent the will of the people because they might go against the majority of the council. His next argument was that the election of the aldermen was unreliable, because they were chosen entirely at the will of the elected council. I suggest that he cannot have it both ways. Either the aldermen are bad because they do not represent the council, or they are bad because they do—but not for both reasons. Leaving aside my own very low opinion of district councils, I do not think it is fair to compare parish and district councils with borough and county councils. Their functions are entirely different and the work they have to do is entirely different. It is my own personal experience, and I think many hon. Members opposite know it, even though they may not like to say it, that we do get on the aldermanic bench, particularly in those councils, of which happily there are still many, which are not cursed with party politics, men of long service and high ideals, non-party men, men who give up the bulk of their lives to the service of the public, and men of a type that we cannot get in any other way.
Leaving out my own personal view that the aldermanic bench saves our Local Government system from the twin evils of democracy and equality—from the completeness of those twin evils—I think almost anybody who has served on local councils will admit that the aldermanic bench has amply justified itself in the past, and will in the future, by the number of self-sacrificing men and men of immense experience who give their service to the public as aldermen but have neither the time, nor the opportunity in many cases, to seek election as councillors. This particularly occurs in the case of county councils, where very often a local seat is held by someone whom it would be a loss to the council to lose, and by electing that man to serve as alderman it is possible to have two good men from the same area serving on the council. That would be impossible if aldermen were abolished. Leaving out all questions of root principle, I suggest that the aldermanic bench has justified itself in Local Gov- 771 ernment as a thoroughly useful and excellent institution.
§ 4,23 p.m.
§ Sir H. YOUNGThe Committee will remember the old Greek fable of the two Greek physicians who argued at the bedside of a patient. They exchanged brilliant arguments and finally came to blows. The conflict was decided in favour of the more learned physician, but by that time the patient was dead. Nobody knows better than the two hon. Members who have spoken that, if we are really to enter upon such scenes of fascinating controversy as those which have been opened up by the Debate so far, then, in common phrase, there will not be "a dog's chance" for the Bill. The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) stated in a manner which could not be improved upon what we should do upon this Amendment; that is, let us recog
§ nise that a most interesting point has been raised, and that it has been argued with great force both by the hon. Member for Leigh and by my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Beaumont). The Committee will not doubt upon which side my sympathies lie, but I refrain from entering into the controversy. I would advise hon. Members that we should regard this as an interesting issue which should come up for decision in any general Measure for the amendment of local government, but recognise that we have before us to-day the task of consolidating existing legislation, and, in order to do that, exercise the self-restraint which the exigencies of Parliamentary time demand.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 273; Noes, 34.
773| Division No. 302.] | AYES. | 14.25 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Crooke, J. Smedley | Hanbury, Cecil |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds. W.) | Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Hanley, Dennis A. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) | Crossley, A. C. | Harbord, Arthur |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Hartland, George A. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Harvey, George (Lambeth,Kenningt'n) |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Balllie, Sir Adrian W. M. | Davison, Sir William Henry | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Dawson, Sir Philip | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Denville, Alfred | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsford) |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) | Dickie, John P. | Heneage, Lieut. Colonel Arthur P. |
| Beaumont, Hn. R. E.B. (Portsm'th, C.) | Donner, P. W. | Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey- Division) |
| Benn, sir Arthur Shirley | Doran, Edward | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller |
| Bernays, Robert | Duckworth, George A. V. | Holdsworth, Herbert |
| Blindell, James | Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) |
| Borodale, Viscount | Duggan, Hubert John | Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Hornby, Frank |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Horobin, Ian M. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Elmley, Viscount | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Briant, Frank | Emmott, Charles E. G. C. | Howltt, Dr. Alfred B. |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Hurd, Sir Percy |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham) | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Insklp, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Everard, W. Lindsay | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Browne, Captain A. C. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. |
| Buchan, John | Fleiden, Edward Brocklehurst | Jamleson, Douglas |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Fuller, Captain A. G. | Janner, Barnett |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Jesson, Major Thomas E. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Gibson, Charles Granville | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Carver, Major William H. | Glossop, C. W. H. | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Goff, Sir Park | Ker, J. Campbell |
| Cautley, Sir Henry s. | Goldie, Noel B. | Kerr, Hamilton W. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Knight, Holford |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Gower, Sir Robert | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton |
| Christie, James Archibald | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro',W.) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George |
| Clarke, Frank | Grimston, R. V. | Law, Sir Alfred |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. | Leckle, J. A. |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Leech, Dr. J. W. |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Lees-Jones, John |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Levy, Thomas |
| Copeland, Ida | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Lewis, Oswald |
| Craven-Ellis, William | Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Lindsay, Kenneth Martin (Klim'rnock) |
| Lloyd, Geoffrey | Peake, Captain Osbert | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd,Gr'n) | Pearson, William G. | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) | Peat, Charles U. | Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. |
| Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Perkins, Walter R. D. | Spens, William Patrick |
| Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Petherick, M. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) |
| Mabane, William | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Stevenson, James |
| MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bllst'n) | Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Pike, Cecil F. | Stones, James |
| MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Potter, John | Stourton, Hon. John J. |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. | Strickland, Captain W. F, |
| McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Pownall, Sir Assheton | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| McKeag, William | Procter, Major Henry Adam | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. |
| McKle, John Hamilton | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) | Summersby, Charles H. |
| McLean, Major Sir Alan | Ratcliffe, Arthur | Sutcliffe, Harold |
| McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Rea, Walter Russell | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.(Pd'gt'n,S.) |
| Magnay, Thomas | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot | Reid, William Allan (Derby) | Thompson, Luke |
| Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles |
| Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Robinson, John Roland | Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| Marsden, Commander Arthur | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) | Ross, Ronald D. | Touche, Gordon Cosmo |
| Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Train, John |
| Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) | Runge, Norah Cecil | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Milne, Charles | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. |
| Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) | Watt, captain George Steven H. |
| Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Salmon, Sir Isidore | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) | Weymouth, Viscount |
| Morgan, Robert H. | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart | White, Henry Graham |
| Morris-Jones. Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard | Whyte, Jardine Bell |
| Moss, Captain H. J. | Savery, Samuel Servington | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) |
| Munro, Patrick | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Murray-Philipson, Hylton Ralph | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Nall, Sir Joseph | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. | Womersley, Walter James |
| Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Newton, Sir Douglas George C. | Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaka) |
| North, Edward T. | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Soper, Richard | |
| Ormsby-Gore. Rt. Hon. William G.A. | Sotheron-Estcourt,. Captain T. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Palmer, Francis Noel | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. | sir George Penny and Sir Victor |
| Warrender. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | McEntee, Valentine L. |
| Banfield, John William | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | McGovern, John |
| Batey, Joseph | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Maxton, James |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Grundy, Thomas W. | Milner, Major James |
| Cape, Thomas | Jenkins, Sir William | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | John, William | Price, Gabriel |
| Cove, William G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Daggar, George | Kirkwood, David | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Davies,' David L. (Pontypridd) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lawson, John James | |
| Edwards, Charles | Leonard, William | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Lunn, William | Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves. |
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
The CHAIRMANPerhaps the Committee will kindly note that as there are a very large number of Clauses in this Bill, I propose to put them in blocks where there are no Amendments to them upon the Order Paper.
§ Clauses 3 to 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ CLAUSE 23.—(Term of office of councillors, day of election, &c.)
§ 4.36 p.m.
§ Mr. TINKERI beg to move, in page 13, line 6, to leave out the words "of 774 November," and to insert instead thereof the words "in June."
This Amendment is moved for the purpose of changing the date of the election. No one can say that the month of November is a good month for any kind of outdoor work, because we do not get the return that we should like to have. The local government vote totals about 60 per cent, of the electors, and that can hardly be said to be a fair return. Much of the non-turning-up at meetings is because of the bad weather conditions. Any hon. Member who has taken part in local government elections will agree with that. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. M. Beaumont) said that his party 775 took as much interest in local government elections as we do. I assume that he meant that they took part in propaganda work and in trying to induce electors to see their point of view. If that is so, he has done what we have done, and he will agree that some change in the date is necessary.
Assuming that his position is like my own, I would like to tell the Committee of my personal experiences in my constituency. This year we made a very big effort to get people to see our point of view, and we held a large number of open air meetings towards the end of October, getting on for November. It was somewhat difficult to get anything like an audience at some of the meetings, hut we faced the issue. We are not like some Members of Parliament who, when they go to a meeting, have a ready-made audience for them to speak to. Our propaganda is not done in that way. We believe that, if we are to succeed, audiences must not be artificially made for us. There must be a genuine belief. If we can only get few people to listen to us, and we know that the message has gone home, they will be converts to us when the time comes for them to vote. We go around in the bad weather trying to persuade people to accept our point of view. We are asking the Committee to agree to this Amendment, because we think that November is not the right time of year to do that work.
Let me give another point. We wish electors to turn up at the poll, but, if the weather is foggy, like it was on Saturday or Sunday of last week-end, we find it very difficult to get people to turn up. It is taxing them too much. Unless the party is well provided with vehicles, it can only get 40 per cent of the voters, which is very small indeed. We are not in the position, as Labour members or as Labour councillors, to provide many vehicles, and therefore we are handicapped, as compared with the other side, who have vehicles with which to bring voters to the poll. If there was better weather, by the elections being held at a better time of the year, there would be hardly any need for vehicles, and people would go to the poll. To change from November to June would be an alteration to what is about the best time of the 776 year. When I spoke to one person about June, he said: "There will be a number of people on their holidays." I said to him, "Not very many of our people. Those who are on holidays will support the other side, and that would be to our advantage. They will not be able to give their votes; let us stick to June, because we shall be securing an advantage over the other side."
I will leave that point on one side, and I will assume that every one of the electors wants to vote. It is advisable to use a time of the year when they will be able to record their vote in local government elections, and we ought to be able to get from 80 to 90 per cent in those conditions. I appeal to the hon. Member for Aylesbury to support the Amendment. I do not say that we should not be prepared to accept another month, but we want to get away from November. Hon. Members may suggest July or August—I do not want to accept anything later than that—or some date about the middle of the year. My desire is to get as many people as possible interested in local government work, and I would rather have 80 per cent. of the electors recording their vote than the percentage that we have at the present time.
§ 4.42 p.m.
§ Mr. GROVESI desire to support this Amendment. I suggest that it would not be detrimental to the Bill to alter the date from November to June or May. I corroborate what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker), and add that the earlier date would be safer for people who were voting. In London we vote in the schools, which are not all electrically lighted, certainly in my area, in the case of some of the non-provided schools, and some of the elderly people find it rather unsafe to go there after 6 p.m. Quite apart from propaganda, it is a fixed principle, in this country, where we believe in the popular vote, that we shall provide full facilities for our people to express their views; we therefore should not make it more difficult by continuing this voting in November. Whatever may be the origin of it, practical experience has proved that we should change the date, although we cannot change the surroundings. The Amendment would bring municipal voting nearer to the 777 period of voting for the urban district councils.
I should he glad if the Minister would explain why, since voting is in April for the urban district councils and, for the London County Council, about the end of March, it is necessary that the voting for county councils and county borough councils shall be on 1st November? I have been a member of the West Ham Council, with other hon. Members of this House, for more than 10 years, and my experience is that it is difficult for us to maintain our open-air work—which cannot he condemned merely because it is open-air work, as it has grown up because of our lack of funds. People are interested in open-air lecturing and speaking, which is a justifiable means of political propaganda. It would certainly be more useful for us to do our speaking to our people in the summer, when it is easy for those who are the bulwarks of the various political strata to come out and listen to our point of view. I submit to the Minister that all that we think and know in connection with political propaganda in this country leads us to urge him to change the voting date from the 1st November to some time in June. I repeat that it would he safer for the people in their voting, and it would eliminate much of the necessity for all parties in local elections to provide transport, and therefore would save money —[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] I am sorry; they are all supposed to be free, presuming that the law is fully carried out by both sides, but in the long run the change would be economical to the country and beneficial to the people.
§ 4.46 p.m.
§ Captain HAROLD BALFOURI hope that the Minister will not accept this Amendment, because there is an aspect of the situation which the hon. Member for Stratford (Mr. Groves) may not appreciate. Perhaps be has not been down to Margate lately and enjoyed its beneficial air. There is an aspect with regard to seaside resorts, which should be considered. If these borough elections were held in June, it would seriously affect the industry of seaside resorts in trying to provide holidays for people from other parts of the country. Certainly the normal holiday period would be upset in a way that would detract most seriously from the attractions of re- 778 sorts which are boroughs, and which therefore have these elections. I cannot see that the arguments of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) are worthy of serious consideration unless equally serious consideration is given to the other side of the picture.
The hon. Member dealt with the difficulty of getting in touch with the electors during the winter. He wanted to bring home his point of view to them all. I would suggest that the literature which is circulated, and the articles which appear in the local Press, given silent contemplation by the winter fireside, are probably just as effective a means of getting home a particular point of view as open-air meetings. The hon. Member spoke of the difficulty of getting people to vote in inclement weather, but is not a vote given in inclement weather worth two votes given in fine weather, because of the sincerity and enthusiasm which urge the elector to go to the poll at such a time? I hope that, from the point of view of the seaside resorts, if not from other points of view which I will not elaborate, the Minister will not accept the Amendment.
§ 4.48 p.m.
§ Mr. JOHN JONESI am very interested in the efforts of those who are neophytes in these matters to teach their grandmothers to suck eggs. Those who, since they were boys, hare taken an active part in propaganda and organisation work on behalf of the Labour movement, know that what the hon. and gallant Member has just said is "All my eye and Betty Martin." He knows very well that, so far as his friends have the power and opportunity, they will use that power and opportunity to make it difficult for their opponents to pull their full strength. We know that, when it comes to fighting an election in districts such as mine, we have all the machinery and organisation of the motor car and so on against us, and in my own constituency we also have Lady Houston coming along to help to fight an unfortunate person like myself.
What is the objection to making it easier for electors to record their votes? The only argument that has been adduced is that it is nice to sit round the fireside, but what about people who have no coal in the grate 7 They want to vote in order to see if they can get coal for 779 their grates. They want to see that the opportunities of living a decent life will be provided in the only constitutional way in which they can be provided, namely, by the will of the people. It ought to be made more easy for people to express their view, rather than being made more difficult by the old system, created in the days of Adam, of polling on I he 1st November; it should have been on the 5th. I wonder that the people who conceived this idea in the first instance did not make it the 1st April. So far as we are concerned, we have no fear of the people voting. We are not Hitlerites. We want the people to vote; we want to give them free opportunity of doing so. We in West 11-am have allowed our opponents to vote, but we have always beaten them, and after the election we have been just the same good friends with them as before. All that this Amendment asks is that people should have reasonable opportunity for giving their votes under decent conditions. At the end of October and in November there arc fogs, and it is impossible for the older people to go to the polling station and yet you say that this is democracy. When the weather conditions are against the people expressing their opinions, you want to keep this condition stereotyped. I think it is only fair to ask that a more suitable date should fixed than this date, which is one of the worst periods of the year, and I hope that the Amendment will be carried.
§ 4.52 p.m.
§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Douglas Hacking)The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) based his argunments for this change on the statement that November generally provided inclement weather. I think that, if he could guarantee a fine day in June in this connection, it would be a greater justification for his proposals. He has given certain reasons why it is undesirable to have these elections in November; may I give him two difficulties in connection with holding them in June? The first reason he has really given himself, namely, that of holidays. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thanet (Captain Balfour) that holidays have to be considered, and it would be very inconvenient to have these elections during 780 the period when many people belonging to both sides are enjoying their holidays. The elections would clash with the Whitsun holidays if they were held in June, for Whit Sunday may fall on any date between the 10th May and the 13th June. That is one difficulty, but there is another, to which I think the Committee ought to give grave consideration. The register of electors comes into force on the 15th October——
§ Mr. GROVESThe date could be altered.
§ Mr. HACKINGI am only dealing with the proposal of the hon. Member for Leigh; I cannot deal with any proposal to amend the other Acts at the present time. As the new list comes into force, on the 15th October, it is up to date on the 1st November, but it would be out of date and comparatively stale by June. That certainly is a great difficulty.
In 1931 a resolution was passed by the Association of Municipal Corporations in favour of spring elections, but it was only carried, I understand, by a small majority. There was great opposition to it; there is no doubt about that; and the Secretary of State told the Association of Municipal Corporations at that time that this proposed alteration must receive a greater measure of support before he could recommend any change of this kind to Parliament. The Chelmsford Committee considered this question, and they took exactly the same view as my right hon. Friend. I would only point out that the main objects of this Bill are really to consolidate the existing law; that has already been stated. I think it would be very wrong to include in the Bill any change which would be hotly contested, and there is no doubt, whatever hon. Members may say, that this proposed alteration would be hotly contested. On these grounds alone I think it is undesirable that the proposal should be carried.
§ Mr. GROVESIs it not true that the register is out of date for county council elections, or is the register for county council elections made up to a different date from that for county boroughs?
§ Mr. HACKINGI am only dealing with the proposal put forward by the hon. Member for Leigh, nothing more.
§ Question put, "That the words of November' stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 266;Noes, 37.
783| Division No. 303.] | AYES. | [4.56 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col Sir M. |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds,W.) | Glossop, C. W. H. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Goff, Sir Park | Marsden, Commander Arthur |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) | Goldie, Noel B. | Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) |
| Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Gower, Sir Robert | Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) |
| Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gretton, colonel Rt. Hon. John | Milne, Charles |
| Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro',W). | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Grimston, R. V. | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale |
| Bateman, A. L. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Morgan, Robert H. |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) | Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. | Moss, Captain H. J. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Munro, Patrick |
| Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Murray-Philipson, Hylton Ralph |
| Bilndell, James | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Nall, Sir Joseph |
| Borodale, Viscount | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Nation, Brigadier-General J J. H. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd). | Newton, Sir Douglas George C |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Hanbury, Cecil | Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Hanley, Dennis A. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Harbord, Arthur | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. |
| Briant, Frank | Hartland, George A. | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Harvey, George (Lambeth,Kenn'gtn) | Peake, Captain Osbert |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Pearson, William G. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Peat, Charles U. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | Penny, Sir George |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Perkins, Walter R D. |
| Buchan, John | Heligers, Captain F. F. A. | Petherick, M. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chetmsf'd) | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Burghley, Lord | Heneaga, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bliston) |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division) | Pike, Cecil F |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Potter, John |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Holdsworth, Herbert | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Campbell-Johnston. Malcolm | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Pybus, Percy John |
| Carver, Major William H. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Ralkes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hornby, Frank | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isies) |
| Cazaiet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Ratcliffe, Arthur |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Horobin, Ian M. | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Horsbrugh, Florence | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Christie, James Archibald | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Clarke, Frank | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney,N.) | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Clarry, Reginald George | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Hurd, Sir Percy | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Robinson, John Roland |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Iveagh, Countess of | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas |
| Copeland, Ida | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. | Ross, Ronald D. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | Jamieson, Douglas | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Janner, Barnett | Runge, Norah Cecil |
| Croom-Johnson, R P. | Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crossley, A. C. | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l) |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Davison, Sir William Henrv | Ker, J. Campbell | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Knight, Holford | Sanderson, Sir A. N. Stewart |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Danville, Alfred | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Savery, Samuel Servington |
| Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Dickle, John P. | Law, Sir Alfred | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) |
| Donner, P. W. | Leckie, J. A. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. |
| Doran, Edward | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Duckworth, George A. V | Lees-Jones, John | Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness) |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Lewis, Oswald | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lindsay, Kenneth Martin (Kllm'rnock) | Somervell, Sir Donald |
| Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Elmley, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, Rt.Hn. G.(Wd. Gr'n) | Soper, Richard |
| Emmott, Charles E, G. C. | Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Loder, Captain J. de Vere | Southby, Commander Archibald R. L |
| Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Mabane, William | Spencer, Capton Richard A. |
| Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham) | Spens, William Patrick |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Stanley, Hon. O. F. C. (Westmorland) |
| Fermoy, Lord | McKeag, William | Stevenson, James |
| Fleiden, Edward Brocklehurst | McKie, John Hamilton | Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) |
| Fraser, Captain Ian | Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton | Stones, James |
| Fuller, Captain A. G. | McLean, Major Sir Alan | Stourton, Hon. John J. |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Strauss, Edward A. |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Magnay, Thomas | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- |
| Gibson, Charles Granville | Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. |
| Summersby, Charles H. | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Sutcliffe, Harold | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.(Pd'gt'n,S.) | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. | Womersley, Walter James |
| Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) | Watt, Captain George Steven H. | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) | Wayland, Sir William A. | Wragg, Herbert |
| Thompson, Luke | Wells, Sydney Richard | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles | Weymouth, Viscount | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | White, Henry Graham | |
| Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) | Whyte, Jardine Bell | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Touche, Gordon Cosmo | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) | Major George Davies and Dr. |
| Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L.(Hull) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George | Morris-Jones. |
| NOES. | ||
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Lunn, William |
| Banfield, John William | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | McEntee, Valentine L. |
| Batey, Joseph | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Maxton, James |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Milner, Major James |
| Cape, Thomas | Grundy, Thomas W. | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Jenkins, Sir William | Price, Gabriel |
| Cove, William G. | John, William | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Daggar, George | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) | Kirkwood, David | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llnelly) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Dobble, William | Lawson, John James | |
| Edwards, Charles | Logan, David Gilbert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves. |
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ Clause 24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.