Commons Sitting of 30 March 1933

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Mersey Tunnel Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

  EX-SERVICE MEN (KING'S NATIONAL ROLL).
  Captain NORTHasked the Minister of Labour the number of firms now on the King's National Roll as compared with the figures five years ago; and whether he can give any reason for the decline in the numbers of disabled ex-service men employed?
  The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton): The number of firms on the King's National Roll at the present time is 24,947, as compared with approximately 27,500 in March, 1928. The number of disabled ex-service men employed by these firms is now about 341,960 and was about 380,000 in 1928. A certain decline in the numbers is to be expected with the passage of time and the changing industrial conditions and more particularly during the period of economic depression. Nevertheless I should like to take this opportunity of re-enforcing the appeal recently made by Lord Allenby, as chairman of the King's Roll National Council, to employers to do their utmost to find or to maintain employment for these men even at this moment of exceptional difficulty.
  Mr. PIKE: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain firms on the King's Roll are discharging ex-service men, and putting in their places men who have had no connection with the Service?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: No, Sir; I am not aware of that. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the rule is that a certain per-
  1152
  centage of ex-service men should be employed, and as far as I know that is the case.
  Mr. PIKE: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter if I put the necessary facts before him?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: Yes.
  Sir JOSEPH NALL: Is it not a fact that the figures to which my right hon. Friend refers include only those of firms who fulfil the qualification that the Roll is based on disability, which must be supported by a disability pension?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: I think that that is so.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    DOG RACING TRACKS (TOTALISATORS).
    Sir PHILIP DAWSONasked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the number of persons who have lost their employment through the shutting down of the totalisators on greyhound-racing tracks?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I have no statistics on this matter.

    PONTYPRIDD.
    Mr. DAVID DAVIESasked the Minister of Labour the number of colliers' assistants signing the unemployment register at the Pontypridd Exchange of the following ages: between 16 and 17, between 17 and 18, and between 18 and 20?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I regret that statistics giving the information desired are not available.

    STATISTICS.
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons who are registered as unemployed but are not in receipt of benefit or transitional payments?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: At 20th February, 1933, there were 533,948 unemployed persons on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain in whose cases there was no claim authorised for benefit or transitional payments. This number includes 78,770 insured persons whose claims were under consideration and 152,836 uninsured persons.
    Mr. McENTEE: Are those figures included in the monthly returns?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: The figures included in the monthly returns are those on the register, and not those drawing benefit.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour the total number of unemployed whose cases have been investigated by the public assistance committees and the estimated amount of money that has been saved?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: During the period 12th November, 1931, to 4th February, 1933, determinations were given by public assistance authorities in Great Britain on 2,691,750 initial applications for transitional payments. It is possible that, in some cases, this figure includes initial applications by the same individual to different public assistance authorities. It is estimated that the net saving during the same period was about £16,500,000.
    Mr. THORNE: Does the Minister recognise that what is causing all the trouble with local authorities is that so many men have been refused transitional payment and have been placed on the Poor Law?

    —

    Men.

    Women.

    Training Centres.

    Instructional Centres.

    Training Centres.

    Feb. 1932.

    Feb. 1933.

    Feb. 1932.

    Feb. 1933.

    Feb. 1932.

    Feb. 1933.

    Number of Centres

    …

    10

    8

    6

    11

    36

    33*

    Number in training

    …

    2,572

    2,011

    795

    1,961

    1,248

    1,016

    Number of staff

    …

    439

    338

    133

    296

    123

    108

    * Including 4 centres with accommodation for 120 trainees which were temporarily closed at this date.

    WOMEN AND GIRLS (TRAINEES).
    Mr. LOGANasked the Minister of Labour the number of women and girls who have received training in the various employment centres since October, 1931, and have secured appointments, giving separate figures for seasonal occupations?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on the 23rd March to the hon. Members for Llanelly (Dr. Williams) and Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) regarding the number of women and girls who were placed in
    Mr. COCKS: Does that answer mean that £16,000,000 purchasing power has been taken from the workers?

    WAKEFIELD.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Labour what was the number of unemployed persons in Wakefield, and its immediate area, at the end of February, 1932 and 1933?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: At 20th February, 1933, there were 8,167 unemployed persons on the registers of the Wakefield Ecployment Exchange and Juvenile Employment Bureau. At 22nd February, 1932, the number was 6,372.

    TRAINING CENTRES.
    Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of training centres; the number of persons in training; the number of staff at the last available date; and comparable figures for 1932?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: As the reply contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the reply:
    or secured employment after training. The number who completed the whole or a substantial part of a course of training during the same period was 6,182. No separate figures are available for placings in seasonal occupations, but the proportion would certainly be almost negligible, since care is taken to avoid placing trainees in seasonal posts save in very exceptional cases.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: Has the Minister any idea whether work is being found for these trainees after they are trained?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: That is the question I have answered. The number who have received training was 6,182, and the number who secured positions 5,768.

    DISABILITY PENSIONERS.
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the Minister of Labour the number of men drawing disability pensions who are registered at Employment Exchanges at the last available date?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: At 20th February, 1933, there were 43,005 unemployed men in receipt of disability pensions on the registers of Employment Exchanges in Great Britain.

    JOINERS AND WOODCUTTERS.
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Minister of Labour the numbers of joiners and general woodcutters registered as unemployed on the last available date; and will he give similar figures for 1929?
    Sir H. BETTERTON: As the reply includes a number of figures I will, if I may, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    Wholly unemployed persons aged 18 and over on the registers of employment exchanges in Great Britain who were applicants for work in certain wood-working occupations.

    —

    23rd January, 1933.

    21st January, 1929.

    Carpenters and Joiners

    46,017

    15,503

    Wood Sawyers

    3,897

    1,625

    Wood working Machinists.

    6,198

    1,723

    PUBLIC WORKS.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELasked the Minister of Health whether, with a view to ascertaining if there 's any considerable unsatisfied need for public works to which a loan expansion policy, with or without Government help, is applicable and whether such works represent an expenditure large enough in the aggregate to be of material use as a remedy for unemployment, he will obtain from local authorities and give in a White Paper details of individual public works advocated by local ratepayers which would each involve expenditure in
    1156
    excess of £25,000, the estimated expenditure on each individual scheme, the date upon which it would, if sanctioned, become effective as a relief to unemployment, and the total number of persons likely to be employed on the sanctioned schemes; and will he arrange in cases where sanction has been withheld to state the reasons for withholding sanction?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young): I fear the description of "works advocated by local ratepayers" is too uncertain to serve as a basis for inquiry, and the labour and cost involved would be very great. The schemes suggested would be of different degrees of practicability and urgency and at all stages of preparation, and would need to be examined to determine which were feasible. The dates of commencement and completion would be problematical. The position is that any application for carrying out useful works is sympathetically considered by me. I will send the hon. Member particulars of actual approvals. I may add, in answer to the last part of the question, that it is the practice to give reasons when an application is refused.
    Sir A. M. SAMUEL: In view of the fact that it has been frequently stated that a general loan expansion policy in respect of public works is a possible remedy for unemployment, is it not possible for the right hon. Gentleman to provide us with information that would tell us whether or not that is all nonsense?
    Sir H. YOUNG: That is another question, and, if my hon. Friend will put it down, I will consider an answer to it.

  JOINT INDUSTRIAL COUNCILS.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Minister of Labour whether he adheres to the policy of his predecessor in 1917 that joint industrial councils should be recognised as the official consultative committees to the Government on all questions affecting the industries which they represent, and should serve as the channel through which to seek the opinion and experience of an industry on questions concerning it?
  Sir H. BETTERTON: There has been no change in policy in this connection.

  TRANSPORT.

    TAXIMETER-CABS, LONDON (LICENSING).
    Rear-Admiral SUETERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will ascertain and state the principles followed by the Metropolitan cab-licensing authorities under which worn-out taximeter-cabs are still allowed to receive a renewal of licence to ply for hire within the Metropolitan area; and whether the front-entrance type of Austin taximeter-cab has been tried out and with what results?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): Taximeter-cabs come up for licence annually and licences are not granted in respect of worn-out cabs. I am informed by the Commissioner that no cab is passed as fit for public use unless it comes up to the conditions of fitness laid down by him. In the case of older cabs, this frequently involves extensive reconditioning of vehicles, the fitting of new mechanical parts and occasionally new engines, in order to bring them up to required standard of fitness. As regards the second part of the question, the front entrance type of Austin taximeter-cab has been approved for trial purposes and 20 such cabs are now licensed. The Commissioner informs rae that so far the results have been satisfactory.
    Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: Is my right hon. Friend aware that owing to bad times many of these men have been unable to repair or replace their cabs, and will he assure the House that sympathetic consideration on merits will be given to these men?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am sure it will be.

    RAIL AND ROAD CONFERENCE (RECOMMENDATIONS).
    Mr. PIKEasked the Minister of Transport if he is aware of the continued depression in the engineering and steel industries due to failure on the part of His Majesty's Government to declare their intentions in respect of the Salter report; and whether he is yet in a position to make a statement?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answers given on 7th February to the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr. Boyce), and on 8th March to the
    1158
    hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir C. Oman), of which I am sending him copies.
    Mr. PIKE: Is the Minister aware that there are large sums of money which might otherwise be invested, but which are now being held up owing to uncertainty?
    Mr. STANLEY: Perhaps the hon. Member had better look at my answer.

  TOY PISTOLS.
  Mr. LEVYasked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to a recent case in which a child was killed by a toy pistol which had been turned into a lethal weapon by removing the plug from the barrel; and if he proposes to take early action to stop the sale of these weapons?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: No doubt my hon. Friend has in mind the recent incident in which a London schoolboy was fatally shot and in respect of which proceedings are now pending in the courts. The weapon used was not, however, a toy pistol as described in the question, but a single-barrelled 22 pistol of German make. Such a pistol is a firearm within the meaning of the Firearms Act, 1920, and I have no reason to suppose the existing law is not sufficient to control the sale of lethal firearms of this class.
  Mr. LEVY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been quite a number of accidents from these toy pistols lately, and that they have in those instances been turned into lethal weapons? Has the right hon. Gentleman power to prohibit the sale of these weapons immediately, pending some further legislation?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: As I have said, this particular weapon comes within the existing Act, and I have no reason to suppose that the law is not strong enough to deal with that particular class of weapon. With regard to the other class, I have been considering legislatiion on the subject.
  Mr. LYONS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any proceedings have been started in reference to the sale of this particular weapon, which apparently came inside the Act?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: All I can say is that I understand proceedings are now pending in the courts.
  Mr. LYONS: Are these proceedings arising out of the unfortunate fatality, or are they proceedings against the person who sold this weapon?

  POLICE.

    PAY (NEW ENTRANTS).
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Home Secretary whether he proposes to take action to implement the report of the Police Pay (New Entrants) Committee?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes, Sir. Draft police regulations embodying the committee's recommendations are under consideration and will be laid before the Police Council, as required by the Police Act, 1919, at a meeting to be held on the 4th April.
    Mr. MAXTON: Will the Home Secretary tell us why it is proposed to increase the rates of pay for entrants into the police force at a time when reductions are being made in other public services?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: This committee was appointed to go into the whole matter, and I think that, at a later stage, there will probably be an opportunity of raising the question.
    Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: Is it the case that the new scale was purely provisional, pending inquiry, and was so described when it was first introduced?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: That is so.
    Mr. MAXTON: Has there been any scarcity of recruits for the police force on the existing scale?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: No, Sir, I think it is the case that there has been no scarcity.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Has the right hon. Gentleman consulted the county councils on this matter?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: The county councils are members of the Police Council.

    SPORTS GROUND, LEYTON.
    Mr. CAMPBELLasked the Home Secretary whether he can make any statement regarding the purchase for the
    1160
    Metropolitan police of the Army Sports Ground at Leyton, in the north-east district of London?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I have been anxious for some considerable time to secure better recreational facilities for the police of the Metropolis. Owing to the urgent need for economy it has not been found possible to provide public funds for this purpose at the present time, but I am happy to say that, for the time being, through the good offices of the Commissioner of Police and some of his friends, the provision of funds from private sources has made it possible to purchase from the Army Sport Control Board, as from 30th September, the Army Sports Ground at Leyton. This ground is situate in No. 3 District, and we hope it will be of great use. I would like to take this opportunity of publicly thanking those whose generosity has enabled the Commissioner to provide this ground.

  WRESTLING EXHIBITIONS (WOMEN).
  Colonel ROPNERasked the Home Secretary whether he will now take legislative action to prohibit public exhibitions of all-in wrestling such as that recently organised at Hull in which women were to be the contestants?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for calling attention to this matter. In my view public exhibitions of what is called "all-in" wrestling between women are open to the strongest objection. I am making inquiry and will consider what action can appropriately be taken, but I understand that the contest at Hull has now been abandoned.
  Mr. PIKEasked the Home Secretary if his investigations into all-in wrestling exhibitions are yet concluded; whether he is aware that women participants are now advertised to exhibit in Hull; and if he can assure the House that steps are being taken to render these displays illegal?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: My enquiries are not yet completed. I understand that the exhibition advertised to take place at Hull has been abandoned by the promoters. I am not yet in a position to say whether legislation is necessary but I can assure the House that I am giving the matter very careful attention.
  Mr. PIKE: In view of the public indignation at these revolting displays, will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he is hastening his decision?
  Mr. THORNE: Is it not the fact that this form of wrestling is a form of physical development; that, eventually, these women might become members of the police forces of various boroughs and be able to deal with the kind of brutes who have to be dealt with from time to time?
  Viscountess ASTOR: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if women want to wrestle they have just as much right to wrestle as anybody else?
  Sir J. NALL: And would he agree that, if they desired to have a drink afterwards, they should also have a right to that?
  Viscountess ASTOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman see that if they have a drink it is within the prescribed hours?

  MURDER CHARGE, WESTMORLAND.
  Mr. LOGANasked the home Secretary whether he is aware that Richard Hetherington has been three times remanded by the Shap magistrates, Westmorland, and on each occasion has had to be taken from Liverpool and back; and whether arrangements, can be made for the police to seek the concurrence of the defence in asking for longer periods of remand when it is not possible to complete the case for the prosecution quickly?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: The charge in this case is one of murder. So far as I am aware, there is no power to order that a person charged with an indictable offence shall be remanded in custody for a longer period than eight days. Less time and inconvenience is involved by conveying the accused to Liverpool than to any other available prison, and I am informed that no objection to the remands has been raised by the defence, who has been consulted on every occasion.
  Mr. LOGAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this has involved a journey of 180 miles for this man on four different occasions; that the pro-
  1162
  ceedings have only occupied about 10 minutes on each occasion when he was remanded; and does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a more convenient gaol than Liverpool could be found?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I have made inquiries on this point and, naturally, I would be glad if any more suitable arrangement could be made, but I have been advised that that is not the case.
  Mr. MAXTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that a day out is very greatly appreciated by a man who is confined to prison?
  Mr. LOGAN: As this is a very important matter, may I say that the question that I am asking is not in reference to the feelings of the man; and may I press the right hon. Gentleman to say if it is not possible to find a nearer prison than Liverpool? I know there are nearer prisons.

  BROADMOOR ASYLUM (INMATE'S DETENTION).
  Mr. ATTLEEasked the Home Secretary whether he will inquire into the case of Mrs. Minnie Stathers, of 107, West Parade, Hull, who has been detained in Broadmoor Asylum for the last 10 years, and who, although her condition is now proved by medical certificate to be normal, has not yet been released?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: This case, like all others at Broadmoor, is reviewed from time to time, and it is only a few days since I called for and considered a, special report on it. I regret, however, that in view of all the circumstances I should not feel justified in authorising Mrs. Stathers' discharge.

  CONVICTION, BRIGHTON.
  Mr. LEVYasked the Home Secretary why Joseph Lupenska, a Polish Communist, who was recently convicted at Brighton and recommended for deportation for the third time, was not deported when first recommended for deportation in 1927?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: Lupenska who came to this country in 1913 at the age of four years is of Polish origin, but it bag proved impossible to establish that he is of

  1163
  Polish nationality, and as no country accepts him as a national, there is no country to which he can be deported.
  Mr. LEVY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this young man was allowed to remain in this country after his parents left several years ago; and can he say why this lad was not compelled to go with his parents?

  SUICIDES.
  Mr. JOHNasked the Home Secretary the number of suicides each year in the past five years in which, according to evidence at the inquest, unemployment has been the cause of mental depression?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I regret that I have no information which would enable me to answer this question.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: Has the right hon. Gentleman any information to show how many suicides were due to overtaxation?

  COAL INDUSTRY (WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION).
  Mr. GODFREY NICHOLSONasked the Home Secretary the number of miners in receipt of compensation for partial disablement in respect of injuries received before 1924 and before November, 1920?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: In 1931, the latest year for which statistics are available, there were 5,039 cases in the mining industry in which the workman had been receiving compensation for 10 years or more; but I regret I have no statistics as to how many of these were injured in particular years or as to how many were cases of partial as distinct from total disablement. I have reason, however, to believe that from two-thirds to three-quarters of the cases would be cases of partial disablement.
  Mr. NICHOLSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the men referred to in my question, although nominally only partially disabled, have not the remotest chance of getting employment, and that they depend on the public assistance committees for their existence; and will he consider legislation to cover these very pathetic cases?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am aware that there are some very difficult and pathetic
  1164
  cases, but it is difficult to see what one can do to help them, and I cannot commit myself at this stage to any form of further legislation.
  Mr. MARTIN: Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman's Department asked the county organisations to bring forward schemes dealing with compensation; and is he satisfied with the schemes which the counties have brought forward?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I am looking into the question and will take all these matters into careful consideration.

  CLUBS AND RESTAURANTS, LONDON (ALIENS).
  Mr. THORNEasked the Home Secretary if he can state the number of club or restaurant premises in the Metropolitan police district which have been closed or the hours restricted by the police upon his authority, under the Aliens Order, 1920, in each year from and including 1928 to 1932?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: There were two such closing orders made in 1928, one in 1929 (which was revoked in 1931), two in 1930, one in 1931 and none in 1932.

  EDUCATION (CIRCULAR 4200).
  Mr. MABANEasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education whether the recommendation in paragraph 44 of Command Paper 4200 has yet been put into force; and, if not, when it will be put into force?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Ramsbotham): The proposals with regard to aid to students which the Board have received from local education authorities show that the great majority of authorities are acting on the recommendations contained in the paragraph referred to.

  NATIONAL FILM INSTITUTE.
  Mr. MANDERasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education if he has any statement to make with reference to the setting up of a British film institute as the result of an agreed scheme?
  Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: My Noble Friend assumes that the question refers to the establishment of the National Film Institute recommended by the Commission on Educational and Cultural Films. The Government have no responsibility for the formation of the proposed institute, but my Noble Friend understands that representatives of the Commission and of the cinema trade have reached agreement as to the possible constitution and functions of such an institute.
  Mr. KNIGHT: Is the Department prepared to receive other suggestions?
  Mr. RAMSBOTHAM: It depends what they are.
  Mr. KNIGHT: Are we to take it that the scheme to which the hon. Member has just referred is the only scheme under the consideration of the Department, and is he aware that a private Committee of this House has been dealing with this matter for years, in consultation with Dominion representatives?

  HOUSING.

    SLUM CLEARANCE, CROYDON.
    Mr. HICKSasked the Minister of Health if he is now in a position to state when the Ministry's sanction will be given for the Croydon re-housing scheme under the Slum Clearance Act, the contract for which was placed last year?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The proposals in their final form were submitted by the council on the 25th February last. The council have been authorised to obtain tenders for the execution of the work.

    GUILDFORD, GILLINGHAM, SWANSCOMBE AND DARTFORD.
    Mr. HICKSasked the Minister of Health if he can state the present position of the housing schemes submitted by the Guildford Corporation and the Gillingham, Swanscombe and Dartford Councils, respectively; and whether he is aware that in each case all the tenders are in and the contractor selected?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The local authorities in question have been authorised to accept the tenders recently submitted to
    1166
    my Department, and the necessary loans have been sanctioned.

    LLANELLY.
    Mr. McGOVERNasked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the rapid deterioration of municipal houses at Llanelly which were built for private owners with Government subsidy; and what steps he proposes to take to see that the occupants do not suffer loss owing to faulty materials or work in such houses?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The houses to which the hon. Member refers, and in relation to which I have received complaints, were subsidised but not municipal houses, and any question of the liability of the builders in respect of their deterioration is a matter on which the owners must be guided by legal advice.
    Mr. MAXTON: Has the Minister of Health no interest or right of intervention in a case where public money has been spent, and obviously misused?
    Sir H. YOUNG: No. There is no liability and, therefore, no right of intervention.
    Mr. MAXTON: Is there not some responsibility on the Ministry of Health, when houses have been erected directly on their insistence and with their money, to see that proper value is given to the occupants of these houses?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The houses were subsidised, but there is no further liability.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Have not the Ministry of Health inspectors to inspect the materials used in the building of these houses, and have they nothing to do with the passing of the work?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I should like to give the hon. Member accurate particulars, if he will put that question down.
    Sir JOHN HASLAM: Were not the builders of these particular houses Scottish and not Welsh builders?
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS: In what part of Glasgow is Llanelly situated?

    ONE-ROOM TENEMENTS.
    Mr. JOHNasked the Minister of Health if he can state the number of families living in one-room tenements in England and Wales, giving seperate figures for each of the large towns?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I regret that the 1931 Census figures asked for are not as yet available for England and Wales as a whole. The separate figures for towns included in the 23 counties for which Census reports have already been published are, however, given in those reports.
    Mr. JOHN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Census figures will be available?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I should require notice of that question.

  POOR LAW RELIEF.
  Mr. LUNNasked the Minister of Health if he will state the cost for poor law relief in the year 1932 and the last figure available for 1933?
  Sir H. YOUNG: Information as to the cost of institutional poor relief in these periods is not yet available. The expenditure on out-relief in England and Wales in 1932 was £14,802,353. The corresponding figure for the eight weeks ended 25th February, 1933, was £2,594,406.
  Mr. LUNN: Does not the increase in the figures show the necessity for the Government taking over the maintenance of the able-bodied unemployed, instead of leaving them to the care of the local authorities?

  DISTRESSED AREAS (RATE BURDEN).
  Mr. LOGANasked the Prime Minister if tile Minister of Health and the Minister of Labour have placed before him the views of the deputation from the depressed areas on the 27th March; and, if so, has he any statement to make?
  The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): Yes, Sir, I have received a report from my right hon. colleagues, and the whole matter is under consideration.
  Mr. LOGAN: Is it possible for the Prime Minister to give us any date when he can implement the promises for the immediate future as given by those two Ministers?
  The PRIME MINISTER: As I say, the whole matter is under consideration, but
  1168
  I hope to be able to see before Easter some representatives of those who met the other day.
  Mr. LOGAN: Is it possible to get an answer before Easter?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot commit myself to that.
  Mr. THORNE: I should like to offer an apology to the Minister of Labour, because I made a statement yesterday that I was under the impression—
  Mr. SPEAKER: If the hon. Member has a personal explanation to make, it must come after Questions.

  NATIONAL FINANCE.

    ECONOMY CUTS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Prime whether, seeing that a large industrial concern has recently restored its wages cuts to the employés and in order to give a, lead to other business concerns in the country, the Government propose to restore their economy cuts to the police, school teachers, the services, and the unemployed?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing to add to the statement which I made on, the 7th February in reply to questions on this subject.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that, if the Government followed the excellent example of Imperial Chemical Industries, it would tend to restore confidence?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I hardly think so.
    Mr. CHARLES WLLIAMS: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the virtue of private enterprise under these conditions, and the advantage especially to the workers?

    DUTIES AND CUSTOMS.
    Major NATHANasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the change-over of this country from Free Trade to Protection, and the experience now gained, he proposes to introduce legislation to consolidate and amend, with a view to bringing it up to date, the law relating to duties and Customs?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Hore-Belisha): I am afraid that I cannot at present add anything to the answer given to the hon. and gallant Member in reply to a similar question which he asked on 1st June last.
    Major NATHAN: Is my hon. Friend aware that the last comprehensive legislation dealing with this matter was in the year 7876, and is it to be understood from his answer that it is the Government's considered opinion that mid-Victorian legislation—
    HON. MEMBERS: Order!

    LIQUOR DUTIES.
    Mr. SPENCERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the approximate percentage of alcohol in the following: British beer of the average strength, foreign wine of the port and sherry type, foreign wine of the claret and burgundy type, Empire wine, British wine and cider; and how the duty per degree of alcohol compares in each case?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which my right hon. Friend gave on the 23rd February, 1932, to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Rear-Admiral Sueter), of which I am sending him a copy.

    BEER DUTY.
    Mr. SMEDLEY CROOKEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will give an estimate of the probable increase in the consumption of beer if the duty is reduced by the equivalent of 2d. a pint in the next Budget?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 14th March to a question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis).
    Mr. PIKE: Will the hon. Gentleman consider the enormous impetus that such a reduction would give to all industries, especially barley and hops?
    Viscountess ASTOR: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, if there is an increased consumption of beer, there will be a decreased consumption of milk for the children?

    HERE BEER.
    Mr. O'CONNORasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his
    1170
    attention has been called to the fact that damage has been done to the manufacture of herb beer, an old-established non intoxicating beverage, by reason of the operation of Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1932; and whether he will be prepared at an early date to introduce amending legislation for the purpose of correcting the position?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The Section to which my hon. and learned Friend refers contains nothing to interfere with the manufacture of herb beer, but merely affects the name under which it may be sold. With regard to the second part of the question, my right hon. Friend is not prepared to introduce legislation as suggested.
    Mr. O'CONNOR: Does my hon. Friend realise that this Section is doing enormous damage to the herb beer trade, that no discriminating beer drinker could possibly imagine that herb beer was beer, and that the Section, while damaging the herb beer trade, is doing no good at all to the beer trade?

    PETROL DUTY.
    Mr. MABANEasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that approximately 1½ million gallons of petrol are used annually by the dry-cleaning trade; and whether he will give consideration to the proposal that petrol used for this industrial purpose should be exempted from the duty of 8d. per gallon?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am aware that light hydrocarbon oils are used by the dry-cleaning trade; but my right hon. Friend is afraid that he cannot contemplate the proposal in the second part of the question.

    IMPORT DUTIES.
    Mr. HALL-CAINEasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is satisfied that adequate powers are possessed by the Customs and Excise Authorities to ensure that dutiable goods imported by the British subsidiaries of foreign companies are declared at their full value; and in how many cases evasion of duty has been discovered and attributed to this cause during the past 12 months?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The powers contained in the Import Duties Act, 1932, have so far proved generally adequate

    1171
    for dealing with the class of case to which my hon. Friend refers. As regards the second part of the question, it is not possible to sort out cases of any particular kind from the great mass of transactions which the import trade comprises, but my hon. Friend may take it that the number of cases of the type he has in mind, in which the value entered by the importer has been increased as the result of investigation, is considerable.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMS: Has the hon. Gentleman considered instructing the Inspectors of Taxes to make sure that these subsidiaries take imported goods into account at the same price at which they are valued for Customs?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The Customs have full powers and exercise them.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: I mean action by the Inland Revenue officers so that any evasion becomes a liability for Income Tax?

    INCOME TAX.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWNasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the inspector of taxes in the Reading district insists on profits for assessment under Schedule D being prepared by a chartered accountant; and whether the Board of Inland Revenue has recently issued any orders which have altered the existing practice that qualified persons other than chartered accountants can prepare accounts for their inspection?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: No recent instructions have been issued in the matter to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and I am not aware that any action has been taken such as he suggests. If, however, he has any case in mind, and will let me have the necessary particulars, I will be glad to have inquiry made. The question whether a taxpayer's accounts can be accepted is one for the Commissioners of Income Tax to determine, if necessary, on appeal, and I may point out that not only chartered accountants, but persons who are qualified by membership of any incorporated society of accountants are entitled in law to appeal before the Commissioners on behalf of an appellant.
    Brigadier-General BROWN: Will the hon. Gentleman look into the case of
    1172
    Mr. Howlett, who has sent his complaint to the Inland Revenue Authorities? Does he realise that this is not a matter of appeal, but who is competent to prepare the accounts?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I need hardly assure my hon. and gallant Friend that I shall be glad to look into any grievance which he likes to put before me.

    ENTERTAINMENTS DUTY.
    Mr. CHORLTONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the Inland Revenue levied Entertainments Duty on a portion of the evening occupied by a cabaret at the ladies' night held by the Manchester Publicity Association at the Midland Hotel, Manchester, on 13th January last; and whether, in view of the fact that this association is not run for a, profit and only the bare cost of the entertainment is charged to members, he will direct the refund of the amount so levied?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The fact that part only of a function consists of a taxable entertainment is no ground for relief from duty in respect of that part. I am having inquiries made as to the circumstances but I may say that, if they are as stated, the fact that members were charged no more than sufficient to cover the bare cost of the performance and that no profit was made affords no ground for exemption from Entertainments Duty.
    Mr. McGOVERN: Can the hon. Gentleman state whether there was any all-in wrestling at this function?

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    OTTAWA AGREEMENTS.
    Sir J. HASLAMasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been drawn to the fact that at least one of His Majesty's Colonies has declined to put into operation the policy agreed upon at Ottawa despite the protest of the Secretary of State for the Colonies; and will he take steps in his forthcoming Budget to exclude the Colony in question from the benefits of Imperial Preference?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: As stated yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Colonial Secretary, the Government of Ceylon have been informed that this matter will have to be considered in connection with the forthcoming Budget.
    Mr. PARKINSONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state (1) the value of manufactured goods exported from this country to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, respectively, since the Ottawa Agreements came into operation to the end of February, 1933;
    (2) the value of produce imported from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, respectively, since the Ottawa Agreements came into operation to the end of February, 1933?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Runciman): I regret that the desired information is not available, as particulars of the aggregate trade of the United Kingdom with individual countries are compiled in respect of quarterly periods only, and particulars of the aggregate exports of manufactured goods to individual countries are compiled in respect of calendar years only.

    STEAMSHIP "GLAMORGANSHIRE" (CUSTOMS DUTY).
    Mr. G. NICHOLSONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the steamship "Glamorganshire" was classed as a foreign ship for purposes of import duty, although she had been on the British register for 17 years, with the result that she was sold to Dutch shipbreakers; and whether he will issue instructions to the Customs officers at ports in this country to prevent this happening in future?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I understand that the ss. "Glamorganshire" was built in Japan. That being so, she would have been liable to Customs duty if imported into this country for breaking up, and the liability would not have been affected by the fact that she was on the British register or in British ownership. I regret therefore that I am unable under the existing law to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion. As he is, however, aware, the general question is one for the Import Duties Advisory Committee.
    Mr. NICHOLSON: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is a most farcical position; that the ship in question was built in Japan during the War when our shipyards were fully occupied, and has been in British hands ever since it was launched; and does he really think that it is the intention of His Majesty's Gov-
    1174
    ernment that such an anomalous situation should arise?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: The mere British ownership of goods affords no ground for exemption from duty. Otherwise, as my hon. Friend would see, it would be easy to transfer the ownership to British hands of any imported goods in order to avoid the duty. That is one of the difficulties, but I assure my hon. Friend that the Import Duties Advisory Committee, in spite of that, is looking into the case.
    Sir H. SAMUEL: Can the hon. Gentleman form any estimate of the number of British working people who have been deprived of work by this form of tariff legislation?

    FRANCE (COMPENSATION SURTAX).
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade what further representations he is making to the French Government in view of the additional discrimination against British goods resulting from the withdrawal of the exchange compensation surtax against Swedish goods while it is still retained against British goods?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: His Majesty's Ambassador at Paris has been instructed to renew his representations on the question of compensation surtax, and I took the opportunity afforded by the visit to this country of the French Minister of Finance to discuss the matter with him.

    FRENCH COLONIES AND AMERICAN DEPENDENCIES.
    Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he has any information as to what percentage of the imports into the French colonies came from France and what percentage of the exports of those colonies went to France in 1932, or in the latest year for which the figures are available; and, for comparison, the figures for the previous year and for 1913;
    (2) if he has any information as to what percentage of the imports into the American dependencies came from America; and what percentage of the exports of those dependencies went to the United States in 1932, or in the latest year for which the figures are available; and, for comparison, the figures for the previous year and for 1913?
    Mr. RUNCIMAN: I am having statements prepared which I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT as soon as possible.

  CANADIAN INVESTMENTS (TAXATION).
  Mr. MALLALIEUasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the proposal of the Canadian budget to levy a 5 per cent, tax on interest and dividend payments by Canadian companies to non-residents in Canada; and whether he will take any and, if so, what steps to protect residents in the United Kingdom who may be affected thereby?
  Mr. HORE-BELISHA: I am aware of the proposal to which the hon. Member refers. As regards the second part of the question I would draw his attention to the provisions contained in Section 27 of the Finance Act, 1920, for granting relief from United Kingdom Income Tax on account of the payment of Dominion Income Tax.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    SICK PAY (WOMEN CLEANERS).
    Mr. BANFIELDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether any unestablished women cleaners of Government offices, either in London or in the provinces, are granted sick pay when ill; and what discrimination is made, if any, and for what reason?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Sick pay privileges are granted to unestablished women cleaners employed (1) on a whole-time basis in the Postal Service; (2) as a common service grade, the conditions of which include a minimum attendance of 30 hours a week, in London headquarters offices of Government Departments, and (3) on a broadly comparable basis in other offices, including provincial offices, exept those employed on an industrial basis or in an industrial establishment. The reason for the exception referred to is that it is not the general policy to grant sick pay privileges to industrial employés.

    WOMEN (PENSIONS).
    Sir FRANK SANDERSONasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that a number of women who have been employed in the Civil Service, in some cases since the
    1176
    early days of the War, have been deemed ineligible for pension on account of advancing years; and whether he will take steps to meet the claim of such women that a larger measure of temporary service than two years eight months should be counted as qualifying for pension purposes?
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: In reply to the first part of the question, in these cases the recognised practice in regard to persons considered for pensionability at a, late age has been followed and the maximum age limits for establishment fixed accordingly. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative. The arrangement referred to represents a considerable concession and there is no sufficient justification for reopening it in the manner suggested.

  AGRICULTURE.

    AGRICULTURAL LAND (UTILISATION) ACT.
    Mr. ALED ROBERTSasked the Minister of Agriculture what representations he has received from local authorities with regard to the grants authorised under Sections 14 and 16 of the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Act, 1931; and what is the nature of his reply?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Major Elliot): I have received representations from 21 local authorities in England and Wales asking that grants may be made available under the sections of the Act to which my hon. Friend refers. As to the nature of the reply, I would refer him to the answer I gave on the 16th March to a question by the hon. Member for East Birkenhead (Mr. White) of which I am sending him a copy.

    MUSTARD SEED.
    Mr. GLOSSOPasked the Minister of Agriculture the number of acres of land under mustard, grown for seed, in the years 1920, 1925, 1930, and 1931?
    Major ELLIOT: The area under mustard grown for seed in England and Wales in the years specified was as follows:

    Acres.

    1920

    …

    …

    …

    …

    51,321

    1925

    …

    …

    …

    …

    22,844

    1930

    …

    …

    …

    …

    26,310

    1931

    …

    …

    …

    …

    22,570

    CROWN-LAND FARMS
    Mr. GLOSSOPasked the Minister of Agriculture the reason why the name and locality of the holding is omitted from advertisements of Crown-land farms to let; and whether he will arrange for advertisements to be drafted more specifically in order that fewer farms may remain unlet on the Crown lands?
    Major ELLIOT: The wording of advertisements of farms to let on the Crown Estates is left to the discretion of the Crown Surveyors, who have a very wide experience in these matters. They inform me that they generally omit from advertisements the name and precise locality of a farm to let, because if a farm is repeatedly advertised with these particulars stated it is apt to make a bad impression on the minds of possible applicants. I have no reason to believe that an alteration of this practice would have the effect which my hon. Friend anticipates.
    Mr. LAMBERT: Is it the case that Crown-land farms are repeatedly advertised to let?
    Major ELLIOT: As is the case with any other estate, some farms have to be repeatedly advertised and some are let straight away.

    GOVERNMENT POLICY.
    Mr. HASLAMasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that as from 6th April next many thousands of acres in the Lincolnshire Wolds, where the main crop is barley, will be to let, and that at present there are few, if any, applicants; that large numbers of agricultural labourers are likely to find themselves as from that date unemployed; if, in view of the urgency of the situation, he has in contemplation any immediate remedial measures to keep the land, much of which is only suitable for barley, in cultivation and the men employed?
    Major ELLIOT: I can assure my bon. Friend that I realise the difficulties of barley growers at the present time. I am reviewing the whole situation, but regret that. I am not yet in a position to make any statement on the subject.
    Mr. HASLAM: While thanking the right hon. and gallant Gentleman for his reply, may I ask him to call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the plight of the barley growers?

    EGGS.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in view of the fall in the price of eggs, he will enter into negotiations with the Dominions with a view to restricting the importation of these articles?
    Major ELLIOT: I am examining this position, but I am not at present in a position to make a statement. My hon. and gallant Friend will of course remember that imports of Dominion eggs are governed by Ottawa Agreements.
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman come to some friendly arrangement with the Dominions in order to prevent this large importation, which is reducing the price of eggs?
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: How many voluntary arrangements between this Government and the Dominions have been entered into which have whittled down the Ottawa Agreements?
    Mr. PIKE: Will not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider further restrictive measures against the importation of Chinese eggs?
    Sir GIFFORD FOXasked the Minister of Agriculture if he has any information as to when a decision is expected to be given by the Import Duties Advisory Committee on the request of the egg-producing industry for an emergency duty between 1st March and 30th July of 1s. 6d. per long hundred eggs (120)?
    Major ELLIOT: The committee have already informed the egg-producing industry of their decision on this application.

  GLASGOW CORPORATION (INQUIRY).
  Mr. McGOVERNasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he can now state the number and names of persons who are to form the judicial committee of inquiry into the allegations of graft by members and officials of the Glasgow corporation; the terms of reference; when they will take up their duties; and where the sittings will be held?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir Godfrey Collins): I

  1179
  cannot yet give a definite answer to this question, but I hope that I may be in a position next week to give notice of the resolution necessary under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, which will contain the proposed terms of reference to the tribunal.
  Mr. McGOVERN: Can the right hon. Gentleman inform us what is the difficulty in connection with making the appointments and settling the terms of reference; and does he know that the people of Glasgow are getting into a state of restlessness over the failure of the right hon. Gentleman to proceed with the appointments and with drawing up the terms of reference?
  Sir G. COLLINS: I can assure my hon. Friend that there has been no undue delay. It has taken time to secure the proper constitution of and the proper members for this tribunal. I might mention that the composition of it is now nearly complete, and I hope to lay on the Table next week the terms of reference.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. McGOVERNasked the Minister of Pensions if he will state the reasons for refusal of full pension to Gordon Lowe, 591, Tollcross Road, Glasgow; if he is aware that this man was wounded and both lungs punctured at the Somme, and, as a result, he is an inmate of the Argyll and Bute mental hospital suffering as a result of his war experiences, and his wife and child drawing Poor Law relief; and will he make an award of full pension to this man?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): This man is in receipt of a life pension in respect of the disablement arising from his wound. The unfortunate mental affection from which he also suffers and which has manifested itself in recent years could not be certified to be the result of the wound or of service and is, therefore, not pensionable by my Department.
  Mr. McGOVERN: seeing that the overwhelming evidence of the doctor in charge of the mental institution, and of others, is to the effect that the mental condition of this man is directly attributable to the results of his wounds,
  1180
  will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman be prepared to consider giving him a full pension and taking his wife and child off parish relief, thus doing justice to a very decent man who has suffered in his country's service?
  Major TRYON: The opinion of the doctor referred to by the hon. Member is not by any means as decisive as the hon. Member suggests. I have just been through the whole of his report. In view of the importance of this case and the interest in it which I share with the hon. Member, I had the matter referred to au independent specialist, who is an eminent authority, of the highest standing, on mental cases and who was selected by the President of the Royal College of Physicians, and on his decision it is clearly made out that a claim is not established.
  Mr. McGOVERN: Seeing that his employers and others have seen the gradual deterioration in this man's physical condition directly attributable to his war wounds, a thing which no expert can judge, will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to consider further this question with a view to securing some form of justice for this poor man?
  Major TRYON: As I have assured the hon. Member, I have gone into this case very fully, and the eminent specialist's decision appears to me to settle the matter finally.
  Mr. McGOVERN: I beg to give notice that, owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply and the unjust attitude of the Department—[HON. MEMBERS "Oh!"]—Yes—I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment, and to-night if possible.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESHMENT DEPARTMENT).
  Mr. GLOSSOPasked the hon. and gallant Member for Ipswich, as Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, the country of origin of the new potatoes which are now appearing upon the menus in the dining rooms of the House of Commons?
  Sir JOHN GANZONI: Jersey, Sir.
  Mr. GLOSSOP: Is my hon. Friend aware that on certain of the menus in the House of Commons on Monday night

  1181
  the word "Jersey" did not appear, and does he not think that by purchasing potatoes from overseas at the present time the Kitchen Committee are setting an unmoral example to housewives in this country?

  WESTMINSTER TOWN PLANNING SCHEME.
  Sir WILLIAM DAVISONasked the First Commissioner of Works what action the Government are taking, in connection with the London County Council or otherwise, to protect the amenities of the Palace of Westminster and Westminster Abbey against the erection of excessively tall buildings in their immediate vicinity?
  Sir ASSHETON POWNALLasked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to the report of the town planning committee of the London County Council dealing with the danger to the amenities of Parliament Square of certain projected new buildings; and what action he intends to take?
  The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): My attention has been drawn to the recent action of the London County Council in passing a resolution authorising the preparation of a town planning scheme for an area in the City of Westminster including Parliament Square, Old Palace Yard and Abingdon Street. I understand that this action has arisen out of proposals for the erection of office buildings on sites in Abingdon Street and Great George Street. Under the terms of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1932, any such scheme must be submitted to the Minister of Health, who will take into consideration any representations received from the Commissioners of Works with regard to the proposal.
  I may add that so far as the Abingdon Street proposal is concerned, the First Commissioner of Works already possesses statutory powers giving him a very considerable measure of control over the elevation and height of any buildings to be erected on that site. I am not aware, however, whether any detailed plans and elevations have yet been prepared, and I am therefore not yet in a position to express any opinion on the proposals. As regards the Great George Street proposal, the Commissioners of Works have no control except in such matters as
  1182
  rights of light and easements as arise out of the ownership of the land in Parliament Square immediately adjacent to the site in question.
  Sir W. DAVISON: I understand, then, that no application has been made to the Office of Works in this matter? The right hon. Gentleman made a reference to the Ministry of Health having certain powers under the Act. To which Act did he refer?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I was referring to the Town and Country Planning Act of last year. The first step, clearly, is for any proposal by the private owners for rebuilding on these sites to go to the London County Council; it then goes from them to the Minister of Health who, before giving his decision, will consult my Department.
  Sir A. POWNALL: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that every possible step will be taken to see that there is no repetition of what has happened in Carlton-house Terrace?
  Lieut.-Commander AGNEW: Will the First Commissioner say whether he has control over the architectural style of any new buildings on the Abingdon Street site?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: No, I do not think I have any control, except over the actual height, and the general character of the elevation in relation to the surrounding buildings. I cannot prohibit all building there altogether.
  Mr. MAXTON: May I ask whether the Great George Street land is not in the ownership of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and if the House has no control over the operations of those Commissioners?
  Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I understand that the bulk, but not all, of the Abingdon Street site is in the ultimate ownership of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, but there is one private owner who owns three houses. The Great George Street site is, I believe, a private freehold.

  IRAQ PETROLEUM COMPANY (LABOUR CONDITIONS).
  Mr. THORNEasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in view of the mandatory responsibility of

  1183
  the Government in respect of Palestine, he will consider impressing upon the Iraq Petroleum Company, Limited, the necessity of recognising the minimum wages and labour conditions that were agreed to in the case of the Haifa harbour works under the Palestine and East Africa Loan Act?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): The Iraq Petroleum Company have given His Majesty's Government a formal assurance that they will observe fair conditions of labour in the execution of all works carried out under their Convention. The Government of Palestine are satisfied that the Company are applying fair conditions in respect of all labour, Arab or Jew, in their employ. The General Federation of Jewish Labour, who raised the matter with the High Commissioner, have been supplied by him with particulars of the wages and conditions of employment offered by the company.

  POST OFFICE (AIR MAIL SERVICES).
  Mr. LOUIS SMITHasked the Postmaster-General if he can state what was the estimated profit from British air mail services for the calendar year 1932, and what amount per letter this profit represents as compared with that per letter on ordinary mail routes?
  The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Ernest Bennett): I am making inquiry and will write to the hon. Member.

  BRITISH ARMY (COURT-MARTIAL, ALDERSHOT).
  Mr. LYONSasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the circumstances of the fraudulent enlistment of which Henry Greasley, of Leicester, a private soldier of the 1st Green Howards, aged 19 years, has been convicted by court-martial at Aldershot?
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): This soldier absented himself without leave from the 1st battalion, The Green Howards, on the 25th February last, and on 27th February fraudulently enlisted in
  1184
  London into the Regular Forces for service in the Gloucestershire Regiment.
  Mr. LYONS: May I ask whether it is a fact that this man left his regiment, as was shown at the trial, for the express purpose of getting home to Leicester, where considerable domestic anxiety awaited him, and is it right to say that he fraudulently enlisted when destitute in London? May I ask whether these facts in relation to a soldier, aged only 19, will be brought to the notice of the confirming authority?
  Mr. COOPER: I think those facts were within the knowledge of the court that dealt with the offence, and they are as stated by the hon. Member.
  Mr. LYONS: While thanking my hon. Friend for his reply may I ask him, on behalf of this young boy, whether these mitigating facts, which my hon. Friend concedes are right, will be brought to the notice of the confirming authority before the sentence is promulgated?
  Mr. COOPER: Yes, Sir.

  GERMANY (JEWS).
  Commander OLIVER LOCKER-LAMPSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will bring the question of Jewish nationalism and the persecution of Jews before the next meeting of the Council of the League of Nations?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): I am advised that there is no Article of the Covenant under which His Majesty's Government could properly bring this matter before the Council of the League of Nations.
  Commander LOCKER-LAMPSON: Will the right hon. Gentleman enable us somehow to express the strong feeling in this country against the bullying in Germany of a helpless minority?
  Mr. JANNER: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether His Majesty's Government will consider whether this anti-Jewish policy adopted in Germany is a matter affecting international relations within the sense of Article 11, paragraph 2, of the Covenant of the League of Nations?
  Sir J. SIMON: I can assure the hon. Member that the Articles of the Covenant have been carefully considered, and I am confining my answer to the question. In that connection, the reply that I have given is not to be understood as referring to any matter outside the Covenant.
  Mr. LANSBURY: In view of the statement on both sides in the Press of persecution of all sorts of people in Germany, might not the British Ambassador in Berlin be asked to give a report on the subject so that some authentic news may be available?
  Sir J. SIMON: I am much obliged to the Leader of the Opposition, and what he has suggested is, I think, entirely reasonable. I have not overlooked that point, and I am in communication with the Embassy.

  RUSSIA: BRITISH SUBJECTS (ARRESTS).
  Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has now received any assurance from the Government of Soviet Russia with regard to the immediate release of the British engineers now imprisoned in Moscow; and whether, in default of that assurance, the Government will place an embargo on all imports from Soviet Russia?
  Sir J. SIMON: The whole subject of the arrested employés of the Metropolitan-Vickers Company in Moscow is receiving the most serious and urgent attention of His Majesty's Government. I therefore telegraphed to Sir Esmond Ovey, our Ambassador in Moscow, yesterday, requesting him to return borne immediately for consultation. He is leaving for London to-day. In the meantime, the Embassy will be in the charge of Mr. Strang, the Counsellor of Embassy, as Chargé d'Affaires.
  Sir A. KNOX: Has the Foreign Secretary considered the possibility of putting an embargo on imports from Russia?
  Sir J. SIMON: I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and in fact the whole House, will agree that, in view of the fact that our Ambassador there, who is our adviser on the spot, is on his way home, it is right that we should see him first.

  ROYAL DOCKYARDS (FRENCH POLISHING WORK).
  Major Sir HERBERT CAYZERasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that carpenters employed in His Majesty's dockyards have been asked to undertake french polishing work; and whether, having in view the unemployment existing amongst skilled french polishers, this practice will be discontinued?
  The CIVIL LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Captain Euan Wallace): It is the practice in the Royal dockyards for French polishing work to be carried out by joiners, as part of their trade. The practice is convenient to the Service and makes for continuity of employment, and there is no good reason for any change.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the Prime Minister what the business for next week will be, and whether he will be able to tell us to-day when the Easter Recess will take place; and also when he can give us time for the Motion on the Paper in the name of some of my colleagues and myself—
"That this House regrets that, instead of making the burden of unemployment a national charge, His Majesty's Government have driven large numbers of able-bodied unemployed persons to seek the aid of the Poor Law, thereby exhausting the resources of an ever-increasing number of local authorities."
The PRIME MINISTER: The business for next week will be:
Monday: Remaining stages of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill; and Committee stage of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions (Amendment) Bill.
Tuesday: Consideration of a Motion for an Address to His Majesty for the erection of a memorial tablet in Westminster Abbey to the memory of the late Earl of Oxford and Asquith; and completion of the Committee stage of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions (Amendment) Bill.
Wednesday: Report and Third Reading of the Financial Provisions (Scotland) Bill.
Thursday: It is proposed to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Estimates and Estimates for the Revenue Departments.

1187
On any day if there is time other Orders may be taken. Private Members' Bills will be taken on Friday.
As regards the Easter Adjournment, we are working for a programme at present which will enable the House to rise on Thursday, 13th April, and we propose that the House shall meet again on Tuesday, 25th April. As regards the Motion which is down in the names of the Leader of the Opposition and some of his colleagues, I would point out that the Government have very important business to proceed with before the Easter Adjournment, and I am not in a position to name a date for a discussion of the subject of the Motion. In any event, I think it better that conversations should take place with my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary through the usual channels regarding this Motion.
Mr. LANSBURY: I gather that the last answer of the Prime Minister means that we should negotiate with the Patronage Secretary on the subject. May I ask whether any particular Votes in the Civil Estimates, and the Estimates for the Revenue Departments will be put down for discussion? Will the Government put down certain Votes, as is sometimes done, to be taken on that date, and can he tell us now which they will be?
The PRIME MINISTER: Certain variations are proposed, and, if my right hon. Friend will confer with the Patronage Secretary, I shall be very much obliged.
Mr. LANSBURY: Will these Votes be put on the Paper?
The PRIME MINISTER: Whatever is arranged will be put on the Paper.
Sir W. DAVISON: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Budget will be taken?
Mr. MAXTON: Can the Prime Minister tell us now or will be he in a position to tell us before the Easter Recess when we shall see the Government proposals on Unemployment Insurance?
The PRIME MINISTER: I am afraid that I am not in that position at the present time. An announcement was made during my absence relating to the manner in which the matter would be dealt with when the existing law comes to an end at the end of June.
Mr. SMITHERS: Will the Prime Minister make it quite clear whether it is still the intention of the Government to take the Budget on the 25th April?
The PRIME MINISTER: That was announced some weeks ago. The 25th April will be Budget day.
Ordered,
"That the Proceedings on the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions (Amendment) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[The Prime Minister.]

PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
Mr. THORNE: I desire to make an apology to the Minister of Labour. At Question Time yesterday I put a supplementary question to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health, in which I stated that I was under the impression that, when a deputation on Monday waited upon the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Health, the Minister of Health said he would make a statement with regard to necessitous areas some time in the latter part of April. I have been assured by all my colleagues who attended the deputation with me that I was wrong, and, if that is so, I apologise.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.
William Henry Mainwaring, Esquire, for the Borough of Rhondda (East Division).

LATE EARL OF OXFORD AND ASQUITH (MEMORIAL).
Resolved,
"That this House will, upon Tuesday next, resolve itself into a Committee to consider an humble Address to His Majesty, praying that His Majesty will give directions that a memorial tablet be erected in the Collegiate Church of St. Peter, Westminster, to the memory of the late Earl of Oxford and Asquith."—[Captain Margesson.]

BILLS REPORTED.

  SOLICITORS BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee B.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Friday, 12th May, and to be printed. [Bill 81.]

  FALSE OATHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be considered upon Friday, 5th May, and to be printed.

  YORK CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported [Preamble not proved]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have agreed to,—
London Pasenger Transport Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to persons under the age of eighteen years." [Children and Young Persons Bill [Lords.]

LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL.
Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 82.]
CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL [Lords].
Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 83.]
PUBLIC PETITIONS.
First Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST RESTRIC S MENDMENT) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

  RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST RESTRIC S MENDMENT) BILL.

    CLAUSE 1.—(Duration and application of Acts.)
    3.55 p.m.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: I beg to move, in page 1, line 8, to leave out from the word "until" to the end of the Subsection, and to insert instead thereof the words "Parliament otherwise determines."
    As Sub-section (1) of Clause 1 stands, it expresses the intention of the Government to continue to operate the Rent Restrictions Act
    "until the twenty-fourth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, and no longer."
    I do not propose to waste time by discussing the purport and meaning of the words "and no longer." No doubt they have been included in the Bill as a sop to those who would like control to be finally ended. The purpose of my Amendment is to take out the fixed date, 1938, and to make the Clause read so that the Act will continue in force until Parliament otherwise determines. The principal Act of 1920, and the Act of 1923, made provision for a gradual resumption of decontrol after full control came to an end. It was visualised in those days that a complete cessation of control on a particular date would prove to be impracticable, and legislation has continued on that basis. From year to year Parliament has continued, in the Expiring Laws Bill, the operation of the Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Acts. In this Bill, a definite date has been stated after which control is to end completely.
    The only justification for ending control five years from now will be that the supply of houses is sufficiently large to enable control to be relaxed without the raising of rents to existing tenants. Since the post-War Rent Restriction Acts have been in operation, notwithstanding a very considerable amount of building, both under Housing Acts aided by public
    1204
    finance and otherwise, the rent of decontrolled houses stands as high to-day as it did 10 years and more ago, and we have no reason to believe that in five years from now the situation will be sufficiently relieved to enable the Government of the day to end control completely without risk to the existing tenants of old houses. It was proved to the Royal Commission on Unemployment Insurance, and to the Departmental Committee on the Rent Restrictions Acts, that, as soon as houses are decontrolled, rents rise, and the fact is that the rise in rents is very considerable.
    Even if we suppose—I am not prepared to accept the assumption myself—that the Government's new Housing Bill will result in an enormous crop of private-enterprise houses in those highly congested areas where the pressure is terrific, and where rents rise most under decontrol, even if we assume that the Government's proposal to hand over the work to private enterprise is a success, the situation five years from now, in those areas that need protection most, will be almost as bad as it is to-day. The areas of which I am speaking are very largely the slum and semi-slum areas. The right hon. Gentleman has promised us a crusade against slums, on the scale of 12,000 houses in the first year, or more if he can get them, but, even if his scheme works, five years from now the situation will hardly be touched, and the plight of tenants of these overcrowded houses will be as desperate as it is to-day. To put a date in the Bill is a pure gamble. There is no certainty that private enterprise is going to meet successfully the demand for small working-class houses. That lies in the future; one does not know; but I suggest to the Committee that the Government have no right to gamble in this way on a supposition that, in five years from now, unaided private enterprise, plus the small contribution which local authorities will make under slum clearance schemes, will be sufficient to meet the needs of tenants who want houses, and to relieve the pressure for increased rents if decontrol comes about.
    It seems to me to be reasonable that this new method of control should continue until Parliament deliberately says, on the basis of ascertained facts, that title time has come to end control. I understand that there are interests who have bombarded the Government because they

    1205
    would like to see control ended now, once and for all, and there are Amendments on the Order Paper to shorten the period of five years. The concession has been made of five years "and no longer." Those words do not bind any successor to this Government. Those words do not bind this Government. Those words are completely meaningless. The only fact that is certain is that the Government intend, willy-nilly, whatever the situation may be, at the dictates of interests who have been clamouring for years, to end control five years from now. I should hope that the Committee will see the reasonableness of an Amendment leaving the responsibility definitely to Parliament to determine, in the light of circumstances, when the necessity for control has ceased, and decontrol can be put into operation. I should hope that Members on the other side of the Committee, many of them with actual knowledge of the facts as regards the rents of decontrolled houses, will be prepared to support this very mild Amendment.
    4.2 p.m.
    Mr. LEWIS: In view of the variety of Amendments on the Order Paper to-day, there is considerable difference of opinion in the Committee as to what is the proper time to lay down for the duration of the Rent Restrictions Acts. The hon. Member for East Willesden (Mr. D. G. Somerville) suggests 12 months. The hon. Member for Flint (Mr. Llewellyn-Jones) suggests nine years. The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken suggests an indefinite period. In my view, the period suggested by the Government has two distinct advantages. It is long enough to hold out a reasonable hope that the shortage of working-class houses will be largely made good by the time that period is over, and it is short enough to encourage the building industry to make the necessary effort. Therefore, it has the supreme merit that it is definite.
    I do not think that members of this Committee can fully appreciate the significance of this question of time without giving some consideration to the general effects of the Rent Restrictions Acts. It is quite true that, on the one hand, they have served a useful purpose in preventing the forcing up of the rents of large numbers of working class houses. But there is the other side of the account to consider. They have deprived a num-
    1206
    ber of owners of the value of their property. In some cases they have actually prevented men from occupying, for their own use, their own houses. They have, in some cases, created an entirely unjustifiable profit for intermediate tenants, themselves protected by the Act and getting money from sub-tenants not so vitally protected. They have hampered, in many cases, important schemes of development, and, I think, beyond all doubt they have very largely checked the building of further accommodation of the same kind. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), speaking on the Second Reading of this Bill, said:
    "The Restrictions Acts are a symptom of a disease, and that disease is the serious and the continuing housing shortage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1932; col. 74, Vol. 273.]
    If I may say so with all respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I think he has not been quite accurate in the words that he has used. The Rent Restrictions Acts are not now a, symptom of the disease of the continuing shortage of housing; they are themselves one of the causes of that continuing shortage. In my judgment, and I think in that of many in this Committee, the evils which have arisen out of the policy of rent restriction now tend to outweigh the good that these Acts have accomplished. The Government propose various modifications of the system in this Bill, modifications which, I think, in the main, judged by the speeches on the Second Reading, commend themselves to the House. They hold out the hope of the complete abolition of rent restrictions. With the object of securing the provision of an adequate-supply of houses as working class dwellings, a purpose which would have the incidental advantage of securing immediate employment for large numbers of those engaged in the building trades who are now unemployed, I would venture to urge upon the Committee that the period suggested by the Government—five years—is long enough, and that it is essential that the period should be definite.
    4.9 p.m.
    Mr. KIRKWOOD: I rise to support the Amendment. We who come from working-class districts know perfectly well the terror which exists at the moment in case the houses become decontrolled. I would ask the Committee to remember what brought about legisla-

    1207
    tion regarding rents and houses. It was no mere accident. It was because those who owned the houses were taking advantage of the poor folks' extremity at the time, and they raised the rents beyond all bounds, with the result that there was an outcry in the country, and special legislation during the War had to be passed in order to protect the helpless tenants of those houses from those who owned the houses. It is because of that bitter experience that we are putting forward this very reasonable claim that the houses should remain controlled until this House, which had to pass special legislation to protect the tenants, is satisfied that there is a sufficiency of houses, so that those who own the houses cannot again take advantage of a scarcity to raise the rents beyond all reasonable bounds.
    I have in my hand a statement sent to me from the City Assessor at Glasgow, and I would ask the Committee seriously to consider what is before us at the moment. He points out that the poorest type of house in Glasgow is the house which, through being decontrolled, has had the rent increased 104 per cent., whereas in the case of the best type of house in Glasgow, ranging from five to six apartments, which is a fairly substantial house in the tenements of Glasgow, all the increase that has been put on is 5 per cent. beyond the usual increase. In the one case, where the inhabitants are on the employment exchange drawing from 22s. to 32s. a week, when their house becomes decontrolled it is increased by more than 100 per cent. over and above the 48 per cent. which the law allows; but in a home where the income is £10 a week, the increase in the rent is only 5 per cent.
    No matter what the Government's supporters may say, we are here again supporting and standing by the bottom dog, and it is the bottom dog which the Government are attacking. Whether they will admit it or not, there is no gainsaying the fact. Here is the statement made by the City Assessor of Glasgow. We want to keep control. We want to keep a grip on those individuals who, time and again, have taken advantage of the poorest section of the community. We find in the West of
    1208
    Scotland that before the War, in 1912, there were about 34,000 houses unoccupied. To-day, out of all the West of Scotland working-class houses, there are not 2,000 unoccupied. Therefore a scarcity of housing still exists.
    Another instance is my own constituency of Clydebank. To show what we are up against, the late Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. and gallant Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair), immediately he took office made a great speech at Edinburgh urging the local authorities to get on with building, and he assured his audience that they could depend on the whole power of the Scottish Office being behind them in the building of working-class houses. The town council of Clydebank took the right hon. Baronet at his word and proposed to build 500 houses. They had to get the sanction of the Board of Health. In the interval the property owners got busy and sent up a deputation which interviewed the present Under-Secretary, and amongst them they turned down the unanimous recommendation of the Clydebank Town Council to go ahead with their programme. That shows the power that the property owners have. Tory Governments have always backed the factors against the working class. I appeal to the Committee on behalf of the poorest of the poor to support my right hon. Friend on this occasion.
    4.19 p.m.
    Captain CAZALET: The whole of the Rent Restrictions Acts were a War-time Measure and they have in years gone by inflicted on the property of a certain section of the community a hardship which has not been inflicted on the property of any other section of the community. My own view is that, had it been possible soon after the War to abolish all control, although without doubt it would have inflicted great hardship on certain sections of the community at that time, by now every section of the community would have benefited. As long as you maintain these conditions of control, you are introducing artificial conditions into the building trade. The hon. Member who spoke last accused the Government of attacking the under-dog. Surely the Government is doing exactly the opposite. If it had not been for the introduction of this Bill, a very large number of houses in the C category

    1209
    would have become decontrolled. If that had the effect in the future that it has had in the past of immediately raising the rent of these C houses, perhaps it would have inflicted a hardship on certain sections of the community, the poorest in the land, but owing to the action that the Government are taking in this Measure those very houses occupied by the poorest are going to remain under control for another five years and, therefore, the Government are assisting the under-dog whom they are accused of attacking.
    The right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment said that in many cases the rents of houses that have become decontrolled have immediately increased. That is perfectly true in regard to the C category of houses, but they have increased for the very good reason that rents usually increase, because there is a shortage of that particular kind of house. We believe that, as a result of what the Government are doing in this Measure and in the other housing Measures, that shortage will very largely be rectified at the end of five years time. The arguments in favour of that were put on numerous occasions when the Bill was introduced. There is not the slightest doubt that one of the greatest advantages, both from the point of housing and of the general amenities of the working class, as the result of this Measure is that it will lead to a great mobility of labour and that the man who to-day lives in a controlled house and has been frightened of leaving it because he has not felt certain that in any other district where he may find a job he will also be able to get a controlled house will now feel a very definite degree of certainty that wherever he may go there will also be a controlled house. Again, I believe as the result of decontrol in categories "A" and "B"—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and gallant Gentleman is getting rather beyond the Amendment. The Amendment is rather wide in scope, but we cannot have a Second Reading Debate on the principle of the Bill.
    Captain CAZALET: I was pointing out that I believe that at the end of five years there will be a sufficiency of houses of this particular category, which justifies the Minister in fixing five years as the time at which rent control should come
    1210
    to an end. Because of decontrol in the A and B category, we believe there will be a larger number of houses built which to-day would come within the category of B houses within the capacity of the working class to afford, which will mean that a very large number of people will go out of these C houses and live in decontrolled houses of the better class. Of course decontrol, when it comes, must inflict some hardship on some sections of the community, but I believe it will not only not inflict any undue hardship on the working classes but the mere fact that a definite date has at last been given to this measure of decontrol will give another stimulus to the building industry and I hope the Minister will abide by the decision that he has already come to.
    4.26 p.m.
    Mr. JANNER: I rise to support the Amendment, not because I am altogether enamoured of the Amendment as a whole but because I am certainly not enamoured of the period fixed for the duration of the Bill. The most important feature of the Bill is the one that is going to provide a continuation and extension of the Acts that exist so that people who are in working class houses will know that they are not going to be turned out under Section 2 of the 1923 Act. We have a memorandum which has been prepared for us showing the statistics for houses. The figures that are given of Class C houses are 4,150,000 controlled and 1,550,000 not controlled. Of the 1,550,000 which are not controlled, 850,000 have become decontrolled since July, 1923, and only 700,000 new houses have been built within that time. Assuming that the most optimistic hopes of the new Housing Acts are realised, assuming that they double those figures, it will take 10 years before you get 1,400,000 new houses supplied, and that will only supply a third of the houses which would become decontrolled at the end of 10 years. It is clear that, if you take a period of five years, the number of houses that are going to be built will certainly not be sufficient to cover the number which will become decontrolled.
    If that is so, the whole purpose of the protection which the Committee have intended to give C class houses alone is going to be defeated. The Committee said they were not going to fix a date. Obviously, they were not satisfied that any possible date could be fixed. There

    1211
    is every reason to understand why they came to that conclusion, because, apart from anything else, they realised that there must be a sufficiency of houses before control could be removed. It is clear, if that is not so, that a man who to-day is living in a controlled house in one district will think for a long time before he goes into another district in order to find work when he is not assured that there is in the other district either -a sufficient supply of houses or at least that the existing houses are covered by the existing Acts and consequently cannot impose an enormous drain upon his pocket. In those circumstances, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman, even if he is not prepared at this stage to accept the Amendment as it stands, at least to consider at a later stage extending the period contained in the Bill.
    The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet) rightly said that if a period is fixed in the Act both the landlord and the tenant will consider that it is the intention of the House that at the end of that period the Acts will definitely terminate There have been so many Acts that at last people will say that the only conclusion is that they know definitely that at the end of five years the Act will cease, and consequently they can act accordingly in regard to their transactions. A disastrous situation will be created because it is clear that at the end of five years there will be no possibility of bringing the Act to an end. If that is so, it will upset all the calculations both of the landlords and of the tenants in respect of the period during which control is to operate and will ultimately mean that there will be considerable dissatisfaction from all sides. No person in the country to-day can possibly say that at the end of five years the housing accommodation, particularly in respect of "C" class houses, will be sufficient, and in those circumstances I ask the Committee to support the Amendment. I need hardly remind the Committee—and if I may I will couple the right hon. Gentleman with his colleagues in the Government—that it is not so very long ago that a statement was made in the House—it is not one which I and indeed most hon. Members are prepared to accept—by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the effect that it will be 10
    1212
    years at least before we shall find ourselves out of the mire of unemployment. If that is so—and I am very loath to accept it—I would say to the Minister of Health that he is not acting consistently in accordance with the views expressed by his colleague, when he asks in the middle of that period that those who will still not have proper employment shall not be given the protection which at present exists.
    It is not true to say that at the end of control the rents of houses will not be increased. The Minister said in the course of his speech on the Second Reading that the average increase in the rent of a decontrolled house is 85 per cent. Where are you going to find tenants of houses occupying, particularly, "C" class houses—and on these benches we also look at the position with regard to the "A" and "B" houses—who at the end of five years will be able to pay 85 per cent. more rent than they are paying at present? It is not consistent with the position as far as the purchase price of houses is concerned. The landlord will not suffer. If the landlord invests his money in any other direction, he will not get an increase of that nature in the course of five years. It is unreasonable to expect when the five years is up and when we shall only have, say, 1,500,000 Additional "C" class houses that we should there and then decontrol the other two-thirds. In these circumstances I ask the Minister to reconsider the position, and to say that although he is not prepared to accept the Amendment he will at least extend the time to 10 or 12 years or to some period more consistent with the situation which exists at present.
    4.38 p.m.
    Mr. BATEY: The Committee have been discussing the Amendment as if it only raised one question, when, as a matter of fact, it raises two questions. The hands of the House of Commons are to be tied with regard to rent restrictions for five years. The Government do not intend to bring in any further rent restrictions Bills before the end of five years, when they intend to decontrol houses. When the Government decided to bring in a Bill I thought that it was intended to base it upon the report of the committee. I have looked up the report with regard to the question of decontrol and find that the committee do

    1213
    not recommend that there should be decontrol at the end of five years. They refer to the fact that some of the witnesses who came before them wanted decontrol to end in three years, others in five years, others in six years and others in eight years. They say:
    "We have been asked by several witnesses to follow the precedents set by other committees and predict a date when working class houses should be finally decontrolled. These predictions have all been falsified by events. We recommend that the new Act should place no time limit on the control of that class of house"—
    The class with which we are now dealing—
    "The question will doubtless require further consideration at a later date in the light of conditions then obtaining."
    It seems as if the Government have set aside the findings of the committee in regard to decontrol and have made up their mind to decontrol at the end of five years. Some witnesses suggested three years and some six years, and the Government have decided upon a period between those two dates and have fixed decontrol to take place at the end of five years. In taking that step the Government have made a huge mistake. There is an old saying that Governments dig their own graves. All we need to do is to go to the working classes and say: "The Government are handing you over to the landlords at the end of five years. They have decided that decontrol shall take place at the end of five years, and then you will be completely at the mercy of the landlords." That is the argument which the Government have given to us to use on the platforms when addressing the working classes. After what the Government have done to the working classes, it is strange that they should now come along with this extra injury and say to the very poorest of the poor: "At the end of five years your houses will be decontrolled."
    The Government, no doubt, when they put those words into the Bill meant that the House would not again be troubled with the question for five years. Such a course is altogether contrary to the experience of the House in dealing with rent restrictions. Within a space of four years the House passed three Bills, one in 1919, one in 1920 and one in 1923, and, considering the temper of the people outside to-day, the House of Commons cannot expect that they will be allowed to
    1214
    sail along for five years without dealing with the important question of high rents. The feeling of the working classes is such that whatever Government is in power, long before five years have elapsed the Government will be compelled to give attention to the question. High rents come upon the working classes with full severity at a time when low wages are being paid and when unemployment is rife. High rents prevail to-day notwithstanding the fact that wages have been reduced. It is only natural that the working classes will make themselves heard upon this question and demand that serious attention be given to it and that something should be done to give some relief to the working classes. High rents are a real burden on the working classes. When the Act of 1920 was passed and the 40 per cent. increase was fixed for working class houses conditions were altogether different from what they are to-day. At that time 25 per cent. was allowed for repairs, and the cost of repairs was altogether different from the cost of repairs to-day. The working classes will be justified in demanding of the House of Commons that, seeing that the cost of repairs has been reduced, the percentage allowed to be charged as increased rent should be reduced.
    The CHAIRMAN: I would remind the hon. Member that what he has just been saying goes beyond the Amendment.
    Mr. BATEY: I thought that you would have pulled me up before. I was going to go on as long as I could. It would be immensely better for the House to allow Parliament a free hand to deal with this question. To fix a time limit of five years and then to decontrol is a stupid thing even for the Government to do, and I hope that they will reconsider their decision before we pass from the Amendment.
    4.44 p.m.
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young): The Government do not propose to accept the Amendment, nor will it be my intention to recommend the Committee to accept any Amendments altering the provisions as to the duration of the Bill. It is clear that the arguments of the Mover and supporters of the Amendment have proceeded upon the basis that control ought to be a permanent system. If you really believe

    1215
    that control ought to be a permanent system, then certainly you ought to resist a proposition for any time limit such as we are now considering, but that is a point of view which the Government could not possibly accept, and for which I do not think there is any large measure of support in the country as a whole. If you do not accept the proposition that control is to be a permanent system and you recognise that it is a temporary system, due to war conditions, which we shall be better without as soon as circumstances permit, and you proceed on that basis, to what conclusion do you come? First of all, you come to the conclusion that the period at which you will be able to cease control is the period at which the supply of houses which you have under consideration equals the demand for those houses. That is the basis of the proposal in the Bill. I cannot possibly put it better than it was put by the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) namely, that what you need to do is to give time enough to allow supply to equal demand, but not too much time, in order that the country may know quite certainly where it stands in the matter. I submit that the measure of time allowed for by the Government is a reasonable measure of time under the circumstances.
    It is true that no time limit was recommended by the Committee, but the Committee did say that the the question would doubtless need further consideration at a later date in the light of the circumstance of the conditions then obtaining. This is a substantially later date than the date of the report of the Committee, and the conditions now obtaining have put rather a different complexion on the matter. The principal condition to which I refer is the Government Housing Bill. The hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Janner) based part of his argument upon the statement that the rate of the provision of small houses in the past had been inadequate. That is the Government's case. It is because the rate of the provision of small houses in the past has been inadequate that we are changeing the system in a new direction, which we believe will accelerate the rate of the provision and make the provision more adequate in the future.
    Mr. JANNER: I should like to know what is the estimate of the number of
    1216
    houses that will be provided in the next five years of Class C houses?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The only statement I will make and the only statement that would be relevant is that five years is a reasonable length of time to allow for the free play of those forces which we are now calling into active operation. The five years' period is a period such as one can look forward to as a reasonable period to allow supply to overtake demand. If you act on the basic assumption that this is not a permanent system but a system which ought to be limited in its operation, then, while we are passing a Bill on the subject, it is more in accordance with our duty to give certain information to people as to where they stand, as a. guide to the future, and to insert a time limit. The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said there was no reason to believe that in the five years' period the supply will be equal to the demand. I say, on the contrary, that there is no reason to believe that it will not. That being so, the right thing to do, surely, is td secure, as we do secure by the five years' provision, an opportunity for the House of Commons to be certain of having the matter brought sharply to its attention at the end of that period. Were it not for that, what might happen? It might be that conditions were all favourable to the removal of control, but simply owing to the lack of Parliamentary time or the lack of any signal circumstance to call the attention of Parliament to the matter, control might be continued indefinitely, year after year, very much to the prejudice of the general economic interests of the country.
    Let me refer to the expression of the right hon. Member for Wakefield that this is a gamble. It is a gamble which involves no consequences of any necessary misfortune to the country. Let us suppose that the other event turns up and that five years hence the supply is not equal to the demand. There is then no prejudice to the general situation. The Act can be continued in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, just as it is being continued at the present time. If we are to choose the best arrangement, I suggest to the Committee that the best arrangement, when you are dealing with a system which is not a permanent system, is to insert a time limit, and thereby secure that there shall be a definite occa-

    1217
    sion in the future when the matter shall be reviewed by Parliament. In these conditions, I think the Committee will find that the better course is to adopt the time limit in the Bill.
    4.52 p.m.
    Mr. LUNN: I think the argument which the Minister used at the close of his speech is one that I should like to take up for the purpose of supporting the Amendment. He says that it may well be that at the end of the five years we shall not have a sufficiency of houses to meet the demand, and that it will be possible in that case to continue the Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act from year to year. It is a better Parliamentary designation to use the phrase, "until Parliament otherwise determines," than to fix a date, and then afterwards have to put the Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. The Bills that are in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act are almost a menace to the time of the House of Commons that may be taken up later when business of a more important character could be done on the Floor of the House. The Minister has put forward no case whatever against the Amendment. If one looks at his Second Reading speech there are two arguments in which I think he will see the necessity for accepting the Amendment. The first one was the argument that there has not been a sufficiency of houses built since the last Rent Restrictions Act was passed to meet the demand. He says that in the past there has only been 13 per cent. increase in the number of Class "C" houses built, whilst there has been an increase by four or five times in the number of better class houses, and that that fact has justified him in continuing control of the Class "C" houses.
    We have been told by other Ministers that there would be a sufficiency of houses built if we would only allow free play for the building of these houses, but we have not got the houses, despite Government assistance and the giving of the subsidy. We have to-day a serious lack in the supply of houses for working people to meet the demand. As conditions are continually growing worse, and will become worse so long as this Government are in office, there is no possibility of the houses being provided
    1218
    to meet the demands of the people, nor do I believe any Member in this House expects that private enterprise is going to build the houses in the next five years in sufficient number to meet the demand, and at the same time to provide them at rents which people can pay.
    There was another argument in the right hon. Gentleman's Second Reading speech, dealing with the increase in the rents charged for houses. He said that the average rent of the decontrolled Class "C" houses had been increased 85 per cent. He also said that there are many of these houses that have not been increased in their rentals 85 per cent. by reason of the fact that some landlords are not as bad as others. There are many Members of this House who can take the Minister to areas where the percentage of increase has been considerably over 100 per cent. In the same street and in the same class of house you find one rental 10s. and another more than £1 a week. I should like to have seen this Bill dealing with the houses that have been already decontrolled in the class "C" category, but that is not in the Bill. I hope, however, that there will be a discussion upon that matter, because of the hardships that have been created for thousands of people who will have to on paying exorbitant rents, whilst their neighbours who live in houses which are controlled will pay what may be termed a reasonable rent in their case.
    I appeal to the Minister to accept the Amendment, instead of laying it down that in five years' time we shall cease to deal with the control of Class "C" houses, although we know that there is no likelihood of the supply being equal to the demand. I am convinced that there is no possible expectation on the part of the Minister or on the part of any Member of this House that that will be the position and that supply will equal the demand. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment, because it would be far better in every way. We could then discuss the matter not simply at the end of five years but even before five years if necessary. We could discuss the matter fully and completely and do something to assist people who are in a very impoverished position to-day and are not likely to be in an improved position during the next five years.
    4.58 p.m.
    Mr. McENTEE: I do not suppose that the arguments of my hon. Friend will in any way influence the Minister, and therefore I do not suppose that any appeal that I may make will have any influence. I wonder what the date in the Bill really means. The Minister says that on a certain date, the 24th June, 1938, the control of these houses is to cease. The Bill says that control is to continue until then "and no longer." But the Minister now says that in 1938 the House will be in position to discuss the matter in the light of the then existing circumstances, and if it so desires it can continue the Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. In that case, what do the words "and no longer" mean? What value have they? The only effect of them will be to mislead the house-owner and the terrorised tenant. Undoubtedly that will be the effect. Most people, whether they are house-owners or tenants, have little knowledge of the meaning of words in an Act of Parliament. I am not sure that many of us inside the House are capable at times of interpreting some of the Acts of Parliament that are passed. Certainly any ordinary landlord or tenant who takes up this Bill if it becomes an Act in its present form, as far as this Clause is concerned, and sees a date fixed and the words "and no longer" following, the only conclusion he can come to is that in 1938 the control which is now exercised over the houses which he rents or owns will be brought to an end. No one can say that in five years from now there will be any likelihood of a situation being reached when the demand for houses will be met by the supply.
    I should like to believe that such a state of things will exist at that time, but the experience of the last 10 years in regard to the building of houses does not warrant such a belief, and the restrictions which will now be placed on the building of houses by the new Housing Bill, restrictions which will make it difficult for local authorities to build, will have the effect of restricting the building of houses, although it is hoped that the Bill will have the opposite effect so far as houses built by private enterprise are concerned. I believe more houses will be built by private enterprise under the new Bill than have been built before, but I have grave doubts whether the
    1220
    number of houses which will be built, including those by local authorities and by private enterprise, will be greater than the number built during the last five years. And during the last five years, in spite of all the efforts made by the late Government, the number of houses built did not reach the number required to meet the ordinary wastage that is taking place year by year. In most areas where there is a large poor working-class population the housing situation to-day is not better, in some cases it is far worse, than it was five and 10 years ago. What chance is there that five years hence it will be any better? If there is any doubt in the matter what purpose is there in misleading both landlord and tenant in the way that the Bill does? Why should we attempt to bind future Parliaments? Everyone knows that we have no such power, and, therefore, why pretend to bind future Parliaments by inserting the words "and no longer." In reality they have no meaning at all.
    The Minister has told us that when the supply equals the demand will be the time, assuming that all his other surmises are accurate, that decontrol ought to operate. That may be, but unless you have some reasonable certainty that the supply will meet the demand in the time indicated I cannot see what purpose the Minister can have in putting these words in the Bill. It may be that he has been badgered by people outside to definitely close control over houses, and that in order to get away from that continuous badgering he has introduced into this Bill words which will hoodwink them into believing that the Government are going to do something which they have not the power to do, and it may be which they have no intention of doing when the time comes. If I could be sure that every tenant and landlord would read the speech of the Minister this afternoon, when he admitted that in five years time the conditions may be such that Parliament will by means of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill extend the period by another year, and after that by another year, I should have some assurance that the people are not being misled. I know a good deal about the average working-class man and woman, and I know that until they became acquainted with the law and the making of laws they were frightened by words. The only purpose

    1221
    the Bill will succeed in achieving is to frighten people when the five years have nearly expired. I hope the Minister will take out these stupid meaningless words, to which neither he nor anybody else can give effect.
    But there is another effect which the Bill will have. The Minister has said that in five years time, as a consequence of the new Housing Bill, there will be a sufficient number of houses to meet requirements. One of the effects of the new Housing Bill will be to increase rents. Some of the tenants who are now to be brought out of control in what are called A class and B class houses will be compelled, because of the power the landlord will have, and which will be exercised, to increase the rents of A and B class tenants, to seek cheaper accommodation in the type of house which we are now discussing, the C class house, and as a consequence there will be an increased demand for C class houses. If the demand for C class houses is increased, and if control is removed in five years time, the number of houses will be insufficient to meet the demand and that will mean that the rents will be increased considerably. The Bill, indeed, is going to act generally against the people. I cannot see any purpose at all for keeping these words in the Bill.
    5.10 p.m.
    Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE: There is just one point I desire to raise; it has not been mentioned so far. I was a member of the Departmental Committee which considered this matter, and I agree that the committee did suggest that no particular date should be mentioned, but at the same time we concurred with the Government in their proposals. But hon. Members should realise that this is a very anomalous form of legislation. It is a particular control of a particular form of property, which is not applied to any other form of property. It is an anomaly to continue it, and the members of the Departmental Committee recognise that. The earlier Departmental Committee suggested that there should he early decontrol, and the Socialist Members of that committee in their Minority Report suggested the year 1932 as being the date at which control should come to an end. That shows that we all recognise this as an anomalous form of legislation, and that
    1222
    some provision should be made for it to come to an end.
    Mr. HOLFORD KNIGHT: That recommendation was made before the change in the economic situation.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: Surely we can invent some new proposal to meet hard cases in 1938, which would not continue control with all its anomalies. I think it is right that we should give notice that it is to end in 1938. We must also recognise that this question is also accompanied by the holding up of mortgages. That is, of course, another question, but it is one of tremendous importance and it has introduced a whole lot of difficulties which we should like to sweep away. As long as the legislation goes on as at present the hands of executors of those who are dead are tied. Hon. Members opposite who speak on behalf of our industrial areas forget sometimes that they are only a small part and fraction of the population of the country. The more we look into the results of the War we see that by degrees they are focussing themselves on certain parts of the country.
    The earlier Departmental Committee recognised this fact; we saw that the trouble was mainly in the larger industrial towns. I was responsible for a minority report which suggested that we should never expect to get decontrol over the whole country at the same time, and I suggested that we should have a local option scheme by which certain areas would be able to continue control while the rest of the country would be free. If we look into the science of the subject we shall find that there are other ways of dealing with this matter besides keeping on control, and it is for that reason I suggest that there should be a signpost put in this Bill, that in 1938 this anomalous system should come to an end, even if it was replaced by some other system which will apply to the actual needs and difficulties of the case. There is very little in it, but it is an indication; and I think it is right that we should give some indication that we intend to change the legislation in 1938.
    5.14 p.m.
    Mr. DUNCAN GRAHAM: May I remind the Committee that in considering the Rent Restriction Act of 1923 Parlia-

    1223
    ment considered that in five years' time the house shortage would be eliminated.
    Sir F. FREMANTLE: The hon. Member and I did not agree on that.
    The CHAIRMAN: This may be interesting, but I am not sure that it has anything to do with the Amendment.
    Mr. GRAHAM: The Amendment is to secure that the Act shall remain on the Statute Book until Parliament shall otherwise determine. The Minister proposes that the Act shall come off the Statute Book in 1938. I was merely reminding the Committee that in 1923 we put in 1928 as the date when the Act should come off the Statute Book, and we were wrong. Every Government that has come in since then has realised that to have taken the Act off the Statute Book in 1928 would have been a very serious mistake. There is nothing unreasonable in the Amendment. I understand that in principle the Minister agrees with it, for he does not look forward with any assurance that in 1938 the supply of C class houses will be sufficient to satisfy the needs of the people who want them. In that case I think it would he a commendable action on his part to accept the Amendment, which would go far to meet the wishes of the Labour party and of the masses of the people outside the House. Let Parliament have the responsibility of seeing that the supply of houses in the future is sufficient to meet the needs of the community, whether in industrial or agricultural areas or any other part of the country.
    5.17 p.m.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: I trust that after the appeals that have been made from different quarters of the Committee the Minister will accept the Amendment. When I first read the Bill I felt that the period indicated in it was too short, and I put down an Amendment to extend the time to 1942, but having heard the speech of the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), and other speeches to-day, I am more than satisfied that it would be a great mistake to put any date whatever in the Bill. It would be very much better for the Act to continue in force until Parliament otherwise determines. Reference has been made to the provisions in previous Acts. It is remarkable that from the start Parliament fixed a date and
    1224
    then discovered that it had made an egregious mistake. In the Act of 1915, passed during the War, the first of a long series which has now reached a total of one dozen, these words appeared:
    "This Act shall continue in force during the continuance of the present War, and for a period of six months thereafter, and no longer."
    At that time Parliament may have thought that six months after the end of the War there would be no necessity to continue the control of houses. The Act was obviously a war Measure at the start. The very fact that this Bill has to be introduced to-day proves that, although actual war conditions have passed away, the conditions under which a very large number of our people are being housed at the present time do make it necessary to have some continuance of rent control. One speaker has spoken of the hardship inflicted on a large portion of the community because they were deprived of the possibility of dealing with their property in the way that they would wish. I am not quite certain whether the owners of dwelling-houses have not been far better off since the War than they were before.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think that was just about the point at which I pulled up another hon. Member because he was making a Second Reading speech.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: But my point is that that is not the class that will suffer hardship if the control of houses is brought to a sudden end, either now or at the end of five years. There will then be a very large section of the community who will be faced with the possibility not only of having to leave their homes, but of very serious economic difficulties. That is why I think the Amendment would meet the situation very much better than the words of the Bill. The Minister of Health said, in referring to the report issued by the Rent Restrictions Acts Committee in July, 1931, that even today conditions have altered, in regard to housing, compared with 1931. I am not certain whether conditions have not become even more difficult than they were in 1931. That Committee was set up by the Minister of Health in the last Government as early as October, 1930. At that time there were not the serious economic difficulties that we are facing to-day.

    1225
    There is another point. In 1930 municipalities were proceeding with the erection of houses. They felt that they were under an obligation to remedy the housing shortage. But the situation has changed entirely since then. Owing to the action of the Government, municipalities and local authorities have been deprived of the opportunity of providing houses. From all points of view I am satisfied that it would be very much better, in the interests of landlord and tenant and of the community at large, that no date should be fixed in the Bill. Although looking at events as they are to-day one does not find ground for very much hope, it is conceivable that there might be a great improvement within the next three or four years, and that the Government might introduce legislation, perhaps on the line suggested by the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) to apply a partial kind of rent restriction to certain areas. A great deal can be said for the hon. Member's view in that connection, but it is better to leave the thing perfectly open, so that if Parliament realises that changed conditions justify the introduction of legislation Parliament can proceed to introduce it. No attempt should be made to repeal the principal Act until Parliament is satisfied that the conditions justify the repeal.
    During the Debate reference has been made to the houses occupied by the workers of the country, the cheapest type of house. If the Bill is passed with the date suggested by the Minister of Health I am not certain that other classes are not going to suffer equally with, if not more than, the workers. There are the skilled artisans and the black-coated workers. Take Class "B" houses, which are referred to in the statistics of houses. Those are houses between £40 and £45 in London, and £13 and £35 elsewhere. In September, 1932, it was estimated that there were 1,300,000 of such houses still controlled. That was 50,000 less than the total on the date of the Committee's report. The position of many of the occupants of these houses is certainly very serious. If the Bill is passed in its present form, at the end of five years this class will be affected. Do we realise that many of the occupants of these houses are suffering in a way that, as a class, they have never suffered before? There are not merely the skilled artisan and the
    1226
    clerk or young professional man, the junior civil servant, but there is also the very large number of persons who are in receipt of small incomes which have become depreciated during the past few months, as a result of the legislation with regard to War Loan and so forth. They would have to look forward within a period of five years to the possibility of having to find houses. If they have not the capital to erect houses for themselves their position is going to be very difficult and I am certain that, with the Bill in its present form, considerable alarm and anxiety is being created among a class which was largely responsible for the great majority secured by the Government at the last Election. I trust that in the interests of that large portion of the community who deserve the consideration of this Committee, the Minister will accept the Amendment.
    5.31 p.m.
    Mr. BRIANT: The Minister is making a very hopeful estimate of the situation in fixing this date and he will remember that there have been previous hopeful estimates followed by unsatisfactory results. The right hon. Gentleman needs all the optimism he can command in approaching a campaign, in which I wish him every success, but does he, in his most optimistic moments, think that the necessary number of houses can be provided in five years? Not only is that not probable but I do not think it is possible. I do not think that under the most favourable conditions it can be expected. Even supposing—and it is a large supposition—that every public body is going to work its hardest and supposing that private enterprise finds—which it does not find—that building houses for tenants of this class is a profitable proposition, is it likely that five years is sufficient time?
    The point which I wish to emphasise is the enormous danger of decontrol unless houses are provided. The London County Council and other local bodies have built large numbers of houses round London and yet the conditions of overcrowding are actually greater than they were two years ago. That is the result of two things. In the case of houses that were then decontrolled rents have gone up and people forced to give up the houses. You may make whatever provision you like but you can never prevent overcrowding unless suitable arrangements have been

    1227
    made to deal with that kind of situation. When that happens a medical officer of health is confronted with circumstances, in which out of pure humanity he is compelled to waive the strict application of rules and allow overcrowding to exist. Then you had a large number of houses built which were much more expensive than people could afford, and even those who went into the houses were compelled to leave them later. Then you had the remarkable fact that people who had left the slums and gone into superior houses were in the long run in even worse houses than they had occupied before. Unless we have a more definite promise, or something more than a promise, of the general fulfilment of this housing programme by the end of five years, it is a very dangerous experiment to risk removing control.
    I know how hard the position is at present for many of those who have no earnings except unemployment benefit, and I cannot imagine that even the most optimistic of us believe that we shall find the economic conditions much better within a comparatively short period. It is extremely unsafe to remove this control, and I hope the Minister will say that he does not propose to do so until he can give us some more definite promise or some ground for the belief that these houses will be provided. He has given us no ground yet for believing that five years will be sufficient to provide the houses which are necessary for the occupation of the poorer paid workers, and more especially for those who are receiving no wages at all, who are living on public assistance or transitional benefit or unemployment insurance. In that situation, I think the Minister is asking too much when he asks us to agree that these houses should be decontrolled at the end of five years. I agree that there should be a date, but the limit of five years is much too short. I am prepared to vote for 10 years, but, as such an Amendment will not be before the Committee, I have no alternative but to vote for the Labour party's Amendment.
    5.35 p.m.
    Mr. PRICE: I have been struck by the remarkable support which the Amendment has received and by the remarkable speech of the Minister in defending the Clause as it stands. I
    1228
    think the Minister himself would admit that he has put no facts before us which give the slightest indication that by 1938 houses with a rateable valuation below £13 will have been built in sufficient numbers to give a decent opportunity to workmen with low wages to get houses at rents which they can afford. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) has been a member of a Departmental Committee on this question. He is about the only speaker who has supported the Bill in its present form, and yet he signed a report which gave no date at all for the discontinuance of the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Act. When the previous Measure was passed provision was made for gradual decontrol, but there will be no gradual decontrol when this Measure is on the Statute Book. We can look for no relief at the end of five years, and there will be no reasonable opportunity for those with low wages to get houses at reasonable rents. The landlords will be in a position to increase the rents owing to the shortage which will inevitably exist in 1938.
    An hon. Member who spoke earlier seemed to suggest that this and other Measures dealing with the control and restriction of rents since the War were a tax on the landlords. As a matter of fact, there is no greater scandal than the 40 per cent. which landlords are drawing on property built years before the War. There is an inclination to forget the kind of property which we are protecting by these Acts. We are protecting property which was built, in some cases, 100 years before the War. Not only that, but we are protecting a rent, which was the "economic rent" fixed by the landlords in the days before the War. Then, it was the landlord's privilege to fix an "economic rent," undisturbed by Parliament or anybody else, and all the rents prevailing before 1914 were economic in the sense of giving the landlord a fair amount of interest on the money invested.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is getting rather wide of the Amendment.
    Mr. PRICE: I leave that subject, but I think it well to point out that in this Measure we are dealing with property which was erected before the War. I do

    1229
    not think the Minister has put before the Committee one argument to prove that in 1938 we shall have a plentiful supply of the Class 3 type of house especially in the provinces. During this Parliament facilities for building houses have been taken out of the hands of the local authorities and, taking into consideration the progress of the local authorities during the last eight or 10 years, let us try to imagine what will happen when the work of building houses is transferred to private enterprise. We can only conclude that it will be a sad look out in 1938 for the people with low wages when decontrol it applied to all property. Under the system of gradual decontrol a number of houses have been decontrolled and the result has inevitably been that rents have increased above the 40 per cent. previously allowed.
    If we are in that position in 1938 we shall be handing over to the landlords lock, stock and barrel the working class people who now reside in controlled houses and whose wages have been considerably reduced, and are being reduced month after month. The landlords will then be able to fix the rents at their own will and desire. I join with others who have supported this Amendment in appealing to the Minister to reconsider the situation. He has suggested that to put in a figure makes no difference. We say it does. If there is anything likely to discourage the building of houses of this kind between now and 1938 it is the fact that private enterprise will know beforehand that in 1938 all that property will be decontrolled, and that a shortage will be created, and that they can increase the rents to whatever extent they like. We fear that the Minister in keeping with his previous Tory and reactionary legislation is handing over the working class people to the landlord class to be further bled. Nevertheless, in view of the effects which we have indicated, we ask him to reconsider this Clause and to leave Parliament with a free hand to bring in decontrol when the circumstances permit. The right hon. Gentleman said the country did not desire a continuation of control. I wish a General Election could be fought on the rent question now and I think he would get a shock.
    The CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member should keep to the issue in the Amendment.
    Mr. PRICE: I do not desire to transgress your Ruling, but in view of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, I wanted to challenge him to take the opinion of the country.
    Sir H. YOUNG: Surely the hon. Member does not want to misrepresent me. What I said was that the opinion of the country would be against a continuation of restriction under a, permanent system.
    Mr. PRICE: I certainly would not wish to misrepresent the right hon. Gentleman, but I am not so certain that he would not be beaten even on that issue. I will conclude by adding my appeal for a reconsideration of this question. There is no need to have these figures in the Bill, and I am satisfied that, in the interests of the community as a whole, they should be left out.
    5.46 p.m.
    Mr. LOGAN: We have had a difference of opinion to-day with regard to interpretation, and I am at a loss to understand what the Minister means when he says that, if necessary, in 1938 we can deal with this question under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, and that at the end of each year we can review the question. The Mover of the Amendment said that, considering that these difficulties are likely to present themselves year by year, we might meet the views of the House and of the Minister himself, as expressed to-day, by accepting the Amendment, which says "Parliament otherwise determines." There is no Minister who, knowing that a new era in building is about to come into operation, can honestly say, definitely—and it is no good being problematical with regard to the absolute necessity of housing—what is likely or unlikely to happen when there is no data upon which to base an opinion. The Government, by their housing legislation, have changed the whole system, and they are now bringing in a Bill based on a supposition which they are not able to prove by any reliable data. They are now asking Parliament holus bolus to bring into operation a Bill which says in substance that a definite date shall be decided upon.
    I know that when Ministers introduce Bills into this House, we are liable to be told on a question of drafting that

    1231
    the Government's interpretation is different from that of hon. Members. I see that the learned Solicitor-General is present. On a former occasion I had to ask what was the meaning of a Clause that was placed before us, and I now ask the Solicitor-General if he will kindly tell me and the members of the Committee what this particular Clause really means. It seems rather singular that we are told that permanently means permanently, and yet that the matter may be dealt with under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. If this Clause does not mean what it says, what are we to understand? Are we to understand that at the end of 1938 the Minister will come forward and say, "In the Act we did agree that the expiration was to be on the date mentioned, but I now ask you to agree in substance to the Amendment that has been suggested by the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood)"? Surely, if the Bill means anything, the Government would never pretend to say that a thing shall cease to exist on a specified date, and then protest against an Amendment which gives latitude, unless there is a determination on the part of the Ministry that the Act is to be effective. If it is to be non-effective, the Minister ought to be candid about it, and he ought to say, "This is a subterfuge, a system whereby we are simply juggling with an Act of Parliament, and we shall come along when it suits us and upset it, but we will not accept an Amendment from the Labour party which states in terms exactly what we mean."
    As a member of the housing department of the Corporation of Liverpool, I say that there is no authority in the country that is able to say that, in the new era of house-building, you are not by this Clause giving to the landlord classes the power to raise rentals and no power to supply the demand for houses on the part of the people. I am as anxious as is the Minister that we should get a response to his appeal, but I am anxious also to be definite, and I do not want to base my premises on what are not facts. I hope that before the Debate closes the Solicitor-General will give us an interpretation of this Clause. Does it mean that it will expire on the date named, or does it not? I understand that it means expiration in 1938, and that if there is a housing shortage then, there
    1232
    will be the possibility of de-control, with higher rentals to be charged. That is a position for which I do not think any Member from an industrial area, in view of the danger which there is likely to be from the shortage of houses, could be expected to vote. If the Solicitor-General would say that this proposition would only be tantamount to what the Labour party propose in their Amendment, we could understand that it is a mere juggling with words, but we are asked to pledge ourselves to a definite date, and I think it is wrong, and that it is inconsistent for the Minister to state that under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act there will be the power of revision year by year. It is tantamount to double dealing, and I think the Government ought to be more explicit.
    5.56 p.m.
    Mr. TINKER: I believe I am the seventeenth speaker on this Amendment, and it is very unusual for so many hon. Members to speak on a single Amendment. It shows the great concern of the Committee in this connection, and I would appeal to the Minister, even though he has made a reply, to reconsider the appeal that has been made to him from so many sides. There have been three or four Members from the Conservative benches, two of whom sat on the Departmental Committee, and neither of them seemed to be emphatic in favour of the Government's proposition. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) said that it did not matter very much either way. As a rule, the Minister himself is very emphatic when he defends his Bill, but on this occasion he seemed to be not quite certain of his position, and when he made the assumption spoken of by my hon. Friend the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. Logan), that in 1938, if the position had not materially changed to put the Government in a safe position, the Parliament of that day would then continue the Act, I thought he was implying that, even though he is bringing in another Bill to deal with housing, he is not quite certain that it will meet the requirements for which we are asking here. If the Government are not quite sure of their ground, at least they might give further protection with regard to rent to those who require it.
    We on this side are quite sure in our own minds that the housing problem will

    1233
    not be solved by 1938, and therefore we ask the Minister to reconsider the position. If he is not quite certain, at least this Amendment ought to be accepted, and if it does not mean very much, and he says it can be altered in 1938, why not give way to us now? In between now and then, if the Government's policy succeeds and they provide the houses, we shall stand discredited, and I do not think there is anybody in this House who would not be glad to be discredited in that matter. If in 1936 or 1937 the supply of houses has already met the demand, there would be no opposition on this side to the Act ending at once and free play with regard to rent coming into operation. Therefore, what we are asking does not seem to me to be out of reason at all. It is quite a simple Amendment, which has aroused great feeling on our side, and we are most eager that the Committee should accept it. In view of that fact, I would ask the Minister to reconsider the question. I do not think he has said the final word on the matter, and if the Committee stage of a Bill means anything at all, surely it means that if there is a strong feeling on any point in a Bill, the arguments put forward ought to have some weight with the Minister in charge. As so many speakers have urged this point of view upon him, I suggest that he ought to get up again and say that he will reconsider the matter between now and the Report stage.
    6.0 p.m.
    Mr. KNIGHT: I want to press a particular view on my right hon. Friend with all the strength I can. I was called out to other duties, and did not hear the whole of his statement in answer to the Amendment. I want him to recall the circumstances in which the original Act was framed and the continuing circumstances which warranted a succession of Governments extending the Statutes under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act from year to year. They did that to avoid the disquiet, agitation and general disturbance which any interference with those Acts would have caused. My right hon. Friend, who has had the duty in recent months of surveying the whole of the ground, has the official records. We have not, but some of us have numerous letters from citizens in various parts of the country giving particulars of their personal cases. My right hon. Friend has
    1234
    the official records, and I want to ask him this simple question: Does he think that there has been such a change in national circumstances as to warrant an interference with the Statutes which hitherto every Government has sought very carefully to avoid?
    This Bill is causing enormous disquiet. At a later stage we shall remove protection from 'a whole range of tenants. Such has been the attention—perhaps my hon. Friends opposite will not agree with this—fastened in the country on the work of the present Government up to this moment, that it has not quite appreciated what the effect of this Bill is going to be; and with the greatest respect I warn my right hon. Friend that if the Bill passes in its present form with the Amendment which he has put down to defer decontrol until next September, there will, between September and December, be such an agitation up and down the country from households from whom protection is being withdrawn that will cause the Government very much concern. I do not want to make any critical remarks about these matters if I can avoid them, but I venture to warn my right hon. Friend. I am not dealing with technical matters. Behind these words lie the necessities and anxieties of countless citizens who Are watching the proceedings here to see how they are to be affected in their households.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN (Captain Bourne): The hon. Member now appears to be making a Second Reading speech.
    Mr. KNIGHT: I am not intentionally doing that, but I am afraid that I am extending my warning longer than I had intended. I venture to advise my right hon. Friend to push back as far as he can the expiration of these Statutes because the withdrawal of the relief which they afford will create conditions which, I think, the Government will regret. I am not particularly concerned about the form of the Amendment, but we cannot bind the action of future Parliaments. I am certain that whatever the Government do with this Bill, they will have to use the Expiring Laws Continuance Act in future years because of the commotion that will be created by this Bill. I ask my right hon. Friend to give us some further assurance so that we can postpone the

    1235
    withdrawal of the relief of the present Acts.
    6.6 p.m.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Attention has already been called to the fact that there have been some eight or nine speeches on one side in this discussion, and I would remind the Committee that there are two distinct sides to this question. As to the words "and no longer," I agree that they are mere superfluous naughtiness and could be cut out quite well, for they have no meaning. I do not dispute what has been said about the difficulties of the tenant, for I agree with it. Still less do I wish to stand up on behalf of the bad landlord. I would like to take stronger lines with him than some of my hon. Friends above the Gangway. A large number of people in the building trade believe that these restrictions have a definite limitation on the production of houses, and that, I gather, is the real reason why the Government are obliged to fix a date. It is curious that the blind belief in the protective value of restrictions is so largely confined to the Liberal and Socialist parties. I would like to warn them that there is a serious danger of lengthening these restrictions. There are large sections of the people on whom they bear hardly. I agree with what has been said by hon. Members as to the hardships of the tenants, but I ask them not to be too hard in pressing their case, and to remember that there is another section of the community as well.
    6.8 p.m.
    Mr. MALLALIEU: I want to add my voice to the chorus which has been imploring the Minister to reconsider his point of view on what seems to me to be so reasonable an Amendment. May I say that there has been no suggestion from these benches that ultimate decontrol may not be desirable? The sole point, as I understand it, in this Amendment is not to deal with ultimate decontrol, but merely with the time of decontrol. All the speakers whom I have heard from these and the Socialist benches have also seemed to accept the desirability of ultimate decontrol, but have preferred to extend the time during which control shall operate. Generally speaking, I agree with the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) in what he
    1236
    said about this rather anomalous legislation. It is obviously desirable to fix some sort of limit to anomalous legislation which penalises a small section of the community unduly. The Amendment which was put down to extend the time, and yet to limit it to a fixed specific period of years is not, I understand, to be called. It, therefore, remains to support this Amendment, which is not very different, although no specific limit of years is mentioned in it.
    I would like to call the Minister's attention once again to the extraordinary uncertainty in which, owing to economic conditions, large numbers of families are now living. It is particularly obvious, perhaps, in the case of the black-coated worker. Very often, owing to a long period of unemployment, he is finding life extremely difficult, and feels not unreasonably that the control which these Acts afford is the last hawser which keeps him to the quay when the gale is blowing. Anything which tends to give him further uncertainty is undesirable, and this House could quite easily and should avoid it. The Government, by maintaining their present position, are tending to create uncertainty, and therefore real hardship to a large section of the people. I ask the Government to accept the Amendment, which does not in any way prejudice the ultimate position, but merely seeks to extend the protection while the economic blizzard blows. If it were likely to be a prejudice to the ultimate position, I would certainly not ask the Minister to accept the Amendment, but it is plain from all the speeches that the ultimate position will not be prejudiced in the least.
    6.13 p.m.
    Mr. CAPE: It will be a grave mistake for the Minister to refuse to accept the Amendment. When I read the Bill and came to this Clause, I tried to analyse what had caused the Minister to allow the draftsman to put these words in. I know the Minister very well, for I have been in the House as a Member as long as he has; I have followed his career and I know that when he makes a statement he has a definite meaning in what he says. I tried to visualise what he probably meant by the words in this Clause and I decided that he probably meant that in 1938 sufficient houses would have been built to enable him to let control go out

    1237
    of existence, or that he intended in 1938, if he were still Minister of Health, to use his power for the benefit of the landlord at the expense of the tenant. When the Minister made his speech to-day I came to the conclusion that I was wrong in both assumptions. If he had been satisfied that he could have built sufficient houses before 1938, there would have been no reason to suggest that the Bill at that time could come under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act.
    The same applies to the second assumption that I made. I am satisfied that the Minister knows perfectly well that by June, 1938, there will be nothing like sufficient houses to meet the demand at that time, and that housing conditions then will be in such a state that no Government would dare to propose immediate decontrol, because in the storm of opposition that would be raised it would be difficult for any Government to exist. I suggest that it would be in no way to the discredit of the Minister to accept this Amendment. Though we have often thought it right and proper to insert in an Act of Parliament a specific date when it shall cease to operate, this is one of those peculiar cases when nobody can say for certain at what time the provisions of this legislation should
    eventually come to an end. It can depend only upon circumstances in the future. If I were in the Minister's position, and were as satisfied as he seems to be that under his new housing proposals he will accomplish the miracle of supplying sufficient houses by June, 1938, I should not be afraid to accept this Amendment. The adoption of this Amendment is the only reasonable thing Parliament can do if it wishes the people outside to regard it as a responsible authority looking after their welfare. If the new schemes produce the houses for the working classes then, when their demands have been met, no Minister will have any difficulty in getting through the House a Bill to take away all the provisions of the Rent Restrictions Acts. Therefore, I add my appeal to those already made to the Minister to reconsider his decision and accept this Amendment, because I feel satisfied that to do so would really meet with the general approval of the vast majority of hon. Members.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 301; Noes, 68.

    Division No. 96.]

    AYES.

    [6.18 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Cross, R. H.

    Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

    Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Cruddas, Lieut-Colonel Bernard

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Culverwell, Cyril Tom

    Albery, Irving James

    Browne, Captain A. C.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, w.)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Burghley, Lord

    Davison, Sir William Henry

    Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

    Burnett, John George

    Dawson, Sir Philip

    Apsley, Lord

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Dickie, John P.

    Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Donner, P. W.

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Doran, Edward

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Carver, Major William H.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Castlereagh, Viscount

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Balniel, Lord

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Dunglass, Lord

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

    Eden, Robert Anthony

    Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aytesbury)

    Christie, James Archibald

    Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Clayton, Dr. George C.

    Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B.

    Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Blindell, James

    Cooke, Douglas

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    Boothby, Robert John Graham

    Copeland, Ida

    Falle, Sir Bertram G.

    Borodale, Viscount

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Forestier-Walker, Sir Leolin

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Boyce, H. Leslie

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Macmillan, Maurice Harold

    Savery, Samuel Servington

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Magnay, Thomas

    Selley, Harry R.

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Maitland, Adam

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Sinclair, Col. T.(Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Gunston, Captain D. W.

    Mason, Col. Glyn K (Croydon, N.)

    Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Meller, Richard James

    Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Milne, Charles

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Harbord, Arthur

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Smith-Carington, Neville W.

    Hartington, Marquess of

    Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

    Smithers, Waldron

    Hartland, George A.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Morrison, William Shepherd

    Soper, Richard

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Muirhead, Major A. J.

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Munro, Patrick

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald

    Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

    Hepworth, Joseph

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Stevenson, James

    Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

    North, Captain Edward T.

    Storey, Samuel

    Hore-Belisha, Leslie

    Nunn, William

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Hornby, Frank

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Pearson, William G.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Peat, Charles U.

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Hurd, Sir Percy

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Iveagh, Countess of

    Petherick, M.

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple)

    Thompson, Luke

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

    Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

    Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Titchfield, Major the Marquess of

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Potter, John

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Kerr, Lieut.-Col, Charles (Montrose)

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Knox, Sir Alfred

    Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

    Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

    Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Ramsbotham, Herwald

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Rankin, Robert

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Levy, Thomas

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Lewis, Oswald

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Wells, Sydney Richard

    Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe-

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Lloyd, Geoffrey

    Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Womersley, Walter James

    Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

    Lyons, Abraham Montagu

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Mabane, William

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

    MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Sir George Penny and Major George

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Salt, Edward W.

    Davies.

    MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

    Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

    NOES.

    Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

    Daggar, George

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Janner, Barnett

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Banfield, John William

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Batey, Joseph

    George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carn'v'n)

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Bernays, Robert

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Kirkwood, David

    Briant, Frank

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Lawson, John James

    Cape, Thomas

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Cove, William G.

    Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)

    Lunn, William

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Hicks, Ernest George

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Curry, A. C.

    Hirst, George Henry

    McGovern, John

    1240

    1241

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Price, Gabriel

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Rea, Walter Russell

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Mainwaring, William Henry

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Mander, Geoffrey le M.

    Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Maxton, James

    Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

    Milner, Major James

    Thorne, William James

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Mr. John and Mr. D. Graham.

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    6.29 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Boyd Merriman): I beg to move, in page 1, line 11, to leave out from the beginning, to the word "is," in line 12, and to insert instead thereof the words:
    "(2) As from the twenty-ninth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, the principal Acts shall not apply to any dwelling-house unless it."
    Whatever differences of opinion there may be about the advantage of having a fixed date for the termination of the Rent Restrictions Acts there can, I think, be no two opinions about the propriety of having a fixed date for the beginning of this Measure. In spite of a very full discussion upon the first Amendment, and in spite of the large number of Amendments on the Paper, we shall presumably get this Bill through the House some time before the House itself is decontrolled for the Summer Recess. No landlord and tenant in the whole of England can say with certainty when that day is to be, but on that day the relations between the landlords and tenants of controlled houses will change. Therefore, it is essential that we should have in advance a definite date declared upon which this Bill shall begin to operate. The purpose of this Amendment is to do that. If hon. Members will allow me to read the Sub-section as it will run when this Amendment and three or four consequential Amendments have been passed, they will see what the point is. It will read as follows:
    "As from the twenty-ninth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, the principal Acts shall not apply to any dwelling-house unless it is a dwelling-house to which they applied immediately before the passing of this Act or then formed part of such a dwelling-house, and it is also a dwelling-house of which either the annual amount of the recoverable rent on the appointed day or the rateable value on the appointed day did not exceed"—
    the figures which are Set out immediately thereafter. That is the substance of this Amendment. In due course I shall be proposing to move another Amendment which, it is hoped, will have the effect of clarifying the position as between land-
    1242
    lord and tenant when the 29th September arrives.
    6.31 p.m.
    Mr. JAMES REID: I want to raise a small point in regard to Scotland. I understand that the 29th September is term day in England, and no doubt it a convenient day there, but it is not a term day in Scotland, where it is quite unknown. I suggest that provision should be made, in applying this Clause to Scotland, so that Martinmass should be substituted for the 29th September as the term day on which all contracts should come to an end. As a matter of fact, the term for dwelling-houses has been satisfactorily altered.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I would like to answer that point at once. It is a point which clearly requires consideration, and it shall be considered.
    6.32 p.m.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: I felt, during the discussion on a previous Amendment, that the Government had a very weak case. From the Amendment which has now been moved by the learned Solicitor-General, I think that that case is infinitely weaker. When the Bill was before the House on Second Reading, I said that a large number of tenants might find themselves in considerable difficulties as soon as the Bill was placed on the Statute Book, and an appeal was made to the Minister that he ought not to bring it into operation on such an early date and in such a drastic manner. It was pointed out that if that were done, it would cause a considerable amount of hardship to a very large number of people in all parts of the country. An attempt is made in this Amendment to modify the stringency of the Measure to a certain extent, but I venture to suggest that it does not go nearly far enough.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think that it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we got rid of the words proposed to be left out, and then, on the

    1243
    Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Cape) we took the discussion as to on what date the provision shall operate. Otherwise I am afraid that we shall get very mixed in the Debates. We must get rid of the words.
    Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    6.35 p.m.
    Mr. CAPE: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "twenty-ninth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-three," and to insert instead thereof the words, "first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-four."
    In the course of the Debate in regard to the leaving out of certain words, an hon. Member said that settling day was, generally speaking, on the 29th September. I had been wondering why the 29th September had been put into the Minister's Amendment, and whether it had any special virtue. I would like to tell the hon. Member that the majority of houses who will be affected by the Amendment are of weekly tenancies, and consequently the 29th September will be of very little value to them. I agree with the learned Solicitor-General that we must specify a date when the Act begins to operate, but we 'think that the date suggested by the Minister is too early. In the original draft of the Bill, I think something was said about it operating in June of this year, but evidently the Minister has had to change his mind about that. His difficulty was to get the Bill through in a reasonable time. Even if he can get his Bill through within a reasonable time, I still think that the 29th September is too early. I do not pose as having much legal knowledge on these matters, and I do not say that I am an expert on the laws that we have upon the Statute Book relating to this subject, although I did take a very active part, when the first Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Act was put upon the Statute Book, in order to make landlords pay back rents that they had taken from the tenants.
    1244
    The coming into operation of the Bill at an early date will have most effect upon tenants of Class "A" and Class "B" houses. We ought to give those people a good deal of consideration. One of my hon. Friends, when we debated the last Amendment, mentioned the case of people who were in a very deplorable position, through lack of employment and large reductions in their salaries and wages, and who had been brought into a sad state of distress. In all probability they will not all be living under good landlords, and unless we give these people a certain amount of time to look round in order to improve their conditions by getting out of a large house and getting into a smaller one, they may be the victims of unscrupulous landlords, and in that case they will find themselves in a very serious position. I do not know that there is any special virtue in the 29th September. Generally speaking, Acts of Parliament start on 1st July or let January, and very seldom on any other date in the year, and I think that we should keep in line with that in this Bill. I ask the Minister not to reject our Amendment. It is only a matter of the date, and if he accepts the Amendment we shall have been able to get at any rate one Amendment in the Bill.
    6.40 p.m.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: I was about to remark when you intervened, Captain Bourne, that this suggestion, though it appeared to modify the form of the Bill as it was originally introduced, is still open to very serious objection. The Bill comes into operation, according to the suggestion now made on behalf of the Government, on 29th September next. There are certain provisions subsequently which deal with the determination of statutory tenancies, and those provisions must be kept in mind in dealing with the proposal in the Government's Amendment. Before dealing with the hardship that is going to be caused to a very large number of people, some 500,000 persons, I would recall that the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. J. Reid) pointed out that tenancies end on 11th November. I know that in other parts of the country tenancies invariably end either on 25th March or on 29th September. In many smaller towns with which I am acquainted there are a large number of houses where the

    1245
    tenancies commence on 1st May or 1st November. If the Bill is enacted in its present form, there will be this difficulty that a landlord, by reason of a subsequent proposal of the Minister, will be able, by giving a month's notice prior to the 29th September to get possession on that date. That is not, in many cases, the usual practice for changing houses, and you may have a period between 29th September and 1st November when an unfortunate tenant who received notice, in pursuance of the provisions of this Bill, would be absolutely homeless.
    There is a very much more serious objection to the proposals of the Government. The tenants who will be affected by the date when the Bill comes into operation, are those who are in Class "A", and they, according to a statement which was circulated some time ago number as many as 500,000. Does the House realise of what this class consists? In the first instance, there is a large number of small tradesmen with a house and a small shop attached to it. Hon. Members can imagine what the plight of those people will be. Assume that the Bill gets through the two Houses and is placed on the Statute Book some time between now and the end of July, and the landlord of a tenement of the kind in question decides that he is going to give notice, not with a view to getting possession on 29th September, because that probably would be furthest from his mind when he gave the notice; but he realises that by giving notice a month before 29th September he will be in a position to give to his unfortunate tenants, whose livelihood depends upon it—
    Sir H. YOUNG: May I interrupt the hon. Member, in order that we may get our discussion clear? The hon. Member realises, no doubt, that there is a specific Amendment coming along later to deal with the case of shops.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: I am bound to make the point here, because the Bill fixes a date when the landlord of such property will be able to take steps, not to get possession, but to extort from the tenant a higher rent, which will largely arise in respect of goodwill. There is also a large number of lodging-house keepers in seaside resorts who, if the Bill goes through that at the end of September, before their season comes to
    1246
    an end, are very likely to find themselves without a house in which to cary on their business. In addition there is, as has already been pointed out, a large number of persons within this class who have comparatively small incomes, which have been very much reduced during the last few months, and these people also will be faced with the possibility of their having to leave their homes at an early date. Personally, I do not think that the Labour Amendment to postpone the date to the 1st January, 1934, extends the period sufficiently. There should be a very much longer period of notice in order that tenants of Class "A" houses may be able to realise what their position is, and to make other arrangements. If the Bill goes through in its present form, I am satisfied that the Government, even before the date they have fixed, will find it necessary, owing to the tremendous outcry from tenants all over the country, to extend the date upon which the Act is to come into operation.
    6.47 p.m.
    Mr. LEWIS: It is interesting to notice the varying degrees of reaction to the Bill which are indicated in the different Amendments which have been put down. Labour Members, as represented by the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Cape), desire to do nothing for three months. Liberal Members, as represented by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Dingle Foot), desire to do nothing for two years; while those thorns in the flesh of the Labour party who are normally to be found on the bench below the Gangway opposite desire positively to move backwards in this matter. The plain truth is that the reforms outlined in the Bill are long overdue. It was abundantly evident in the discussion on the previous Amendment that many of those Members who support the continuance of rent restriction in its present form are going about in blinkers. They see immediately before their eyes the advantage to the tenant who has the use of someone else's property at some thing less than its true value, but they do not see on either hand the very grave objections to which our present system of rent restriction lies open.
    They do not appreciate, for example, the effect on the mobility of labour to which reference was made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chip-

    1247
    penham (Captain Cazalet). They do not appreciate the hardship entailed on the man who is prevented from living in his own house. They do not attach any importance to the fact that owners of this class of property are prevented from getting a fair return on their invested capital. They do not seem to care about the very serious restrictive effect that this legislation has had on many schemes of development, with resulting loss of work in the building industry. They do not seem to regard as of any importance the paralysis of that section of the building trade which normally provides working-class dwellings, and the consequent grave lack of employment in that section of the trade. Fortunately, the Minister of Health has taken a somewhat wider view. While he appreciates the advantages of rent restriction to the tenant in a house that is affected by it, he also appreciates the serious disadvantages which arise from the existing state of the law, and I hope very much that he will not be dissuaded by the eloquence of any Members of the Committee to delay beyond the date suggested by the Solicitor-General the operation of these overdue reforms.
    6.51 p.m
    Mr. DINGLE FOOT: I must confess that I listened with surprise to the speech of the bon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis). I hope that he does not in this matter speak for his party in the House. I think that, when some of us put down Amendments to postpone the date of decontrol in the case of middle-class houses, we have a right to expect, and might reasonably hope for, a certain amount of support from Members of the Conservative party. We on these benches are not particularly enamoured of control for its own sake, and the sooner we are able to dispense altogether with control, owing to relief of the shortage of houses in that class, the better.
    Nobody denies, at any rate with regard to Class "B" and Class "C" houses, that the need for control remains, and I suggest that the need is still very great in regard to Class "A" houses. I would ask whichever Minister is to reply whether the Government really think that this is an opportune moment at which to decontrol houses occupied by middle-class people at rents ranging from £45
    1248
    to £105? We heard a good many references, in the discussion both on the Minister's Amendment and on the last Amendment, to the black-coated worker, and a good many speakers have drawn attention to the fact, of which we are all aware, that the black-coated worker is going through, perhaps, the most difficult time he has ever experienced. It is a time of salary cuts, and a time when there is more unemployment among clerks and in the professions than has ever been known before. Must this moment be chosen, of all times, to deprive middle-class tenants of the statutory protection which they have enjoyed for the last 10 years?
    It is true that the Marley Committee said, on page 26 of their report, that they were satisfied that in the case of the more expensive houses a shortage no longer existed. If one could feel quite sure that that was so, of course one would not be supporting Amendments of this character. It may be that there is no actual shortage of that type of houses, but I suggest that there still is, at any rate in certain districts, a considerable shortage of that type of houses for letting. Of course, there are plenty to be sold. We have seen in the last few years the activities of the building societies, and if the last year or two had been years of prosperity, the activities of the building societies would probably have gone a long way to solve the problem of middle-class houses, because they would have gone on increasing the number of owner-occupiers, which, I imagine, is something that we all want to see. At this time, however, when the prospects of employment are so uncertain, and when, as I have said, there are salary cuts in, I suppose, almost every office, the middle-class tenant does not feel that he can risk taking up a building society mortgage: and so, at a time like this, more than at other times, he feels that he needs to rent a house. I suggest that there is not sufficient evidence, either in the report of the Marley Committee or from any other source, to show that the need for houses to let at these rentals has yet been met.
    The hon. Member for Colchester and several other speakers have referred to the hardship which the Rent Restriction Acts impose upon the landlord, and I think it is true that those Acts have

    1249
    imposed certain hardships upon the landlord. But I suggest that those hardships are greater in the case of the lower-rented houses, and that the hardship on the landlord is not so noticeable in the case of that class of houses which is to be decontrolled under the Bill. In the lower-rented houses there is very often sub-letting. That means that the houses are overcrowded and occupied by large families, tending to increase the wear and tear of the house and to increase the depreciation of the property. Those conditions do not exist, at any rate to anything like the same extent, in the higher-rented houses. There is not nearly so much sub-letting, overcrowding and wear and tear, so that the landlord does not lose any large proportion of the value of his property through depreciation. I do not think that, as regards this class of house, we can really say very much about the hardship to the landlord.
    I suggest that there is not very much substance in talking about the difficulties of the landlord at a time like the present. It may be true that the landlord has undergone hardships as a result of rent control during previous years, when prices were higher and it was much easier than it is to-day to find a good investment: but to-day 'house property is one of the best investments that it is possible to find. The landlord of this class of house is, after all, able to get a 40 per cent. better return on his money than he was able to get before the War, and there is scarcely any other class of property of which that can be said at the present time.
    The advantage which the landlord derives from having his money invested in this form of property does not stop there. If he spends money on repairs, he is entitled to get a return of 8 per cent.—I think that is the figure—on the money he has spent in that way. Therefore, I think that, under the conditions of to-day, at any rate comparatively speaking, the landlord of the class of house which it is proposed to decontrol is not suffering any real hardship, at any rate when his position is compared with that of other property owners and other investors. We on these benches think it would be perfectly fair to ask the Government to postpone for a year or two—or perhaps a shorter time, but we should like to see it postponed for a year or two—the moment when decontrol is to come
    1250
    into operation. We are not putting forward this suggestion in order to make unnecessary difficulties, but we feel that the Government's proposals may involve a very real hardship to the middle classes and to the black-coated worker. Although it may not be possible to accept the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Workington, I would ask the Minister very seriously to consider these matters before we deal with the Bill on Report.
    6.59 p.m.
    Mr. BATEY: The hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) suggested that we on this side were going about in blinkers, but, even if we were, we can still see that there are a good many other people who have interests and who need consideration besides the landlords. This proposal of the Government does not affect Class "C" houses, but, as regards Class "A" and Class "B," the Government propose to decontrol 3,500,000 houses. We suggest that the Government might give to the people who live in Class "A," and Class "B," houses a little more time than is proposed. I am inclined to agree with the last speaker that, instead of the Amendment we are moving, which is most moderate, and which is to substitute 4th January next year for 29th September this year, we should give a much longer time to the people living in these houses. It seems to me that the Government are treating these two classes as if they were one. They will be dealt with as if they paid quarterly rents. The Government fix upon 29th September, perhaps because of quarterly rents being paid. Quarterly rents may be paid, to a large extent, by people living in Class "A" houses, but that cannot apply to Class "B" houses, the majority of the tenants of which are weekly tenants. Why should the Government treat them as being on the same level as Class "A" tenants? To do so is a great mistake.
    The Government take the 29th September and put it into the Bill, although that date is a Friday. The Government could not select a worse day for weekly tenants. I could have understood the position if the Government had selected the 2nd October, which is a Monday. I think, however, it is much better that the date should be that stated in the Amendment we are moving. That date is a Monday. The Amendment would

    1251
    also give them a breathing-space to ascertain where they were before decontrol commenced. We understood that all this rent restriction legislation was based upon the Report and recommendations of the Marley Committee. That Committee did not recommend that decontrol should commence immediately with regard to Class "B" houses. On page 27 they say:
    "…therefore, we consider that a gradual process of decontrol is desirable, and the present process of decontrol by possession established by the Act of 1923 appears to us, on balance, to be less objectionable than any other system of partial or gradual decontrol which has been put before us. We, therefore, recommend that the decontrolling provisions of the Act of 1923 should continue to apply to this class of house."
    They had in mind Class "B" houses, and considered that they should come into the possession of the owners when the houses became vacant. I think we are proposing a most modest Amendment, and one which the Minister ought to adopt.
    7.5 p.m.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I want to clear away some misapprehensions in the observations which have been made by the last speaker, and others. The recommendation of the Marley Committee in connection with Class "B" houses has been followed out, literally, in the Bill. But in the present Amendment we are only dealing with Class "A" houses, and an issue which has arisen on Class "A" houses. What is the purpose of the Amendment? It is not in any way based on the necessity for prolonging the control of Class "A" houses. I want to put it as badly against myself as I can, and to make my attitude clear. The Amendment is not moved because of the necessity for prolonging control of Class "A" houses at all. It. is moved, as was explained by my hon. and learned Friend, because, after close examination of the way in which the machinery of decontrol will work, it became obvious that unless you made some provision of this sort you would produce a great legal confusion between landlords and tenants of Class "A" houses.
    It is a most carefully prepared proposal of a technical nature in order to prevent that confusion. The proposal is this. First of all it is to give time enough for the tenants and landlords to
    1252
    look about them and come to fresh arrangements. In the second place, it is in order to give time for the landlord to give to the tenant, in every case, one month's express notice. After very careful reflection, from the practical and legal aspects of the matter, we came to the conclusion that, in order to keep things definite and businesslike during the process of decontrol, it would be necessary to have that express notice from the landlord to the tenant. These are the purposes for which this Amendment is intended. It is to prevent the occurrence of any confusion in the relations between the landlord and tenant, and to prevent the tenant from being taken by surprise. The Debate, of course, on this Amendment has been on a much wider basis. It has been argued on the basis that we should have no decontrol of Class "A" houses at all. The contention behind the Amendment of the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Cape) is hostility to any sort, or amount, of decontrol of Class "A" houses. That was argued in the speeches of hon. Members below the Gangway on this side of the Committee.
    They entirely failed, I think, to make their case against the recommendation of the Marley Committee. That committee viewed this matter from no partisan angle. The distinguished chairman was a member of the party opposite, and hon. and learned Members of that party signed this recommendation. There was only one exception, the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham). He was the only exception among the representatives of the Labour party. The case for this recommendation is overwhelmingly strong, because the question is whether or not the supply of the particular class of house you have under consideration meets the demand. At least that is the point of view of the Government in the matter, and it is the point of view of the great majority in this House. The point of view of the other section of the House is that control should be a permanent system. From the speeches opposite I think that is at the back of their minds. Accepting as a basis that you are to decontrol when the supply meets the demand, I have no hesitation in saying that the recommendation of the committee still stands in this matter. The committee say:

    1253
    "Shortage no longer exists of the more expensive houses, which for the sake of convenience we call Class 'A'"
    If shortage no longer exists, the raised rent difficulty and trouble with the landlord, fears of which were expressed by some hon. Members, are not justified, and need not be apprehended. Remember also that it is said that there is a positive benefit conferred on tenants of this class of house by decontrol. I cannot put it better than by quoting the words of the recommendation in which the Committee said:
    "The continuance of control in the interest of this minority"—
    That is, a minority of occupiers of "A'' class houses which are controlled, be cause the majority of that class of house is already decontrolled—
    "must be to the detriment of the majority in that it artificially restricts the amount, and so raises price, of the accommodation in the market, and in view of the great amount of new building in this class of house we do not think that there is any reason to anticipate that owners will be able to exact scarcity rents."
    Mr. KNIGHT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has taken into account any change in the financial circumstances of the tenants since Marley recommendation?
    Sir H. YOUNG: Certainly I have borne that in mind, but it is absolutely irrelevant to the contention I have given to the Committee. If I am right in my contention that decontrol would assist in keeping down rents, then that will be a benefit to "A" class tenants, however poor they may be. The contention of the Committee is well founded, and its nature will be clear to the Committee of this House. It is: Remove the control and you increase the provision of the type of house we have now under consideration. By increasing the provision of that type you introduce a strong element to keep down the rents and the poorer people are the more important it is to keep down rents. The case was put against this contention very clearly by the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. D. Foot). He put it with some ingenuity. He said that the statement of the Marley Committee, that such houses were no longer in need of control because the Committee were satisfied a shortage no longer existed, might be true regarding houses to sell, but was not true about houses to let.
    1254
    As I understood his case, houses to let are what there is a special need for at the present time. That does not seem to have relation to the facts of the case, and the great change in habits and customs in the relations between landlord and tenant. I believe that the opinion of those with the most intimate practical knowledge of the subject would be in practically a contrary direction in both regards. The demand is increasingly for small houses to buy. In this class, the provision of small houses to let is, taking the country as a whole, ample in relation to the demand. Further, if I may say so, one should consider the implication of questions of fact. I was surprised at a little mistake in the logic of his arguments, a thing which the hon. Member does not often make in his able speeches. He said that these houses were a good investment. If they are such a wonderfully good investment, there will be plenty of investors and, if there are plenty of investors, there will be plenty of houses to let.
    Mr. DINGLE FOOT: They were a good investment for those who have invested in them before the War compared with those who invested money in any other way before the War. On the whole this class of investor has come better out of it than any other class. That is what I was endeavouring to argue.
    Sir H. YOUNG: As a matter of fact, it would have been better if the hon. Member had advanced the other contention. These houses are a good investment, and those who watch the situation know that there is a, strong investment demand for such houses. If that is so, the prospect is that there will be an increase of houses to let. The fact is that the situation as regards these "A" Class houses no longer warrants the continuance of control. I know that, whatever moment you choose, it will always be possible to make a case and say that decontrol involves hardship. I do not believe, if you look on the matter as a national or a local problem, that there are any cases of hardship which need be considered as against the enormous benefits that will be obtained by freeing this class of house from control. I am sure the Committee will realise that, whenever you bring forward a, proposal of this sort, you will be told, "This is not the right moment. You must put it off and

    1255
    try again later." I suggest that this is the best moment that could be found, this moment which coincides with a great fall in the cost of building, and the serious conditions, amongst the class of tenants involved makes it all the more necessary that we should obtain those benefits for all classes by bringing into play forces which decrease the price of the accommodation in question in the manner referred to in the report of the Committee.
    The Debate on the Amendment has neessarily covered a wide ground, but I think the Committee will be satisfied that the proposal now under consideration for the decontrol of Class "A" houses is both justified by present conditions and is an essential part of the very carefully dovetailed scheme prepared by the Marley Committee. It is a scheme every part of which is fitted into the other parts. They are all carefully related to certain basic facts and, if we destroy one part which we happen to dislike, we run the risk of destroying some other part which we happen to like. I believe we shall be well guided in these discussions in adhering as closely as we can to the very well considered recommendations of the Marley Committee.
    7.20 p.m.
    Mr. GREENWOOD: The right hon. Gentleman's speech is interesting as indicating the shabby nature of the Bill. It appears now that this alteration in date is not intended as a concession to anyone at all but arises from the fact that the Government have given so little consideration to the matter that they have not realised until well after the Second Reading that the operation of Clause 1 would cause confusion between landlords and tenants. This is a most extraordinary admission to make on the Committee stage and proves conclusively that the Government's consideration of the wonderfully constructed scheme of the Marley Report has not been as thorough as it might hare been. It was also intended, we are told, in order to give landlords and tenants time to look about and come to a fresh arrangement. A fresh arrangement about what? About rent. If the right hon. Gentleman's contention is true, if supply is meeting demand now, why this necessity for making an alteration of the date at all? What will be the
    1256
    nature of the new arrangement if there is any new arrangement at all? In the vast majority of cases it will be an increase in rent.
    We are told also that this date, 29th September, is being introduced in order to ensure that every tenant shall get a full month's notice. This is going to be an astonishing situation. These Class "A" houses will be for the most part let quarterly or annually, and the tenants will have assumed that there would be no alteration of the law which would break that contract. Now we are in the position that, owing to this lack of consideration of the question by the Government before they introduced the Bill, the most they are going to do for these people is to ensure them one month's notice. In nine-tenths of the cases coming under the category of Class "A" houses that will be a legal, but nevertheless an immoral infringement of the agreement made between the landlord and the tenant.
    The right hon. Gentleman justified his treatment of the Class "A" houses by referring to the recommendations of the Marley Report. But all their evidence was collected in 1930. It is now 1933 and the situation is entirely different. The circumstances that applied in 1930 do not apply now. Unemployment is severe—relatively it is almost a new problem—in the suburbs where the Class "A" houses are the chief houses in the district. In hundreds of cases men who have bought houses have been driven by sheer poverty to get out of them. In hundreds, perhaps thousands, of cases these people are being driven to look for houses to let. I do not accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement that in this day of a new poverty amongst these people the conditions of 1930 necessarily apply. He said the speeches that have been made about the poverty of the residents of Class "A" houses are irrelevant. They may be irrelevant but they draw attention to a serious human problem which the Government is ignoring.
    The right hon. Gentleman makes the case that decontrol will assist in keeping down rents and will actually increase the provision of Class "A" houses. He has not told us how it will increase the provision of them, nor is it clear how decontrol will assist in keeping down rents. If the right hon. Gentleman had virtually

    1257
    to recast this part of the Clause in order to permit of time for new agreements and leases to be made between landlord and tenant, that could not have been done on the assumption that rents were going to remain stable and I am pretty satisfied that, having regard to the influences which press upon the Government with regard to decontrol, the last thing he thought about was that rents would, as a matter of fact, come down. Indeed, we had from the hon. Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis) a speech early on, and a repetition of it again on this Amendment about the hardship to the landlord who is letting a house at less than its true value. The whole object of decontrol, as urged by landlords, is in order that they may be able to get a better return on their money than they have been getting hitherto. If that is not their object, they are the most public spirited set of owners of capital that there is in this country. They are naturally concerned to get the best possible return on their money. This time for making new arrangements will in most cases result in rents rising rather than in rents falling. I thought the right hon. Gentleman's speech on the first Amendment was a very doubtful contribution on the wisdom of the Bill. I am more than ever convinced, after this speech, that its operation might be adjourned, not till 1st January of next year but sine die, until the Government have really given full consideration to all the problems involved.
    7.27 p.m.
    Mr. JANNER: There are one or two points in favour of the Amendment which its supporters have not dealt with as fully as they might have done. The charter on which the Bill is being based, or the statistical permit for it, is given to us in the form of statistics of houses which, I assume, are submitted in order to prove the case for the new Act which is to be added to the Statute Book. I was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that the only reason why he was concerned about putting in a date was in order to comply with certain legal formalities. In other words, he meant this. There are 500,000 Class "A" houses which are at present controlled, and he does not consider that there is any necessity for any interval to intervene except for the purpose of legal formalities being observed before those
    1258
    half-million houses are decontrolled. Surely, he could not have meant that. If he had given the matter consideration, he would have realised that, even if his contentions were correct and no hardship would occur in the majority of cases, there must be a very large number out of that half-million who are going to be placed in a difficult position and now is obviously not the time to place them in this difficult position.
    What happened in the 10 years during which decontrol has been enforced? Has it meant that houses have been provided from time to time to such an extent that there has been no need to regain control? On the contrary, instead of the position being relieved to the extent one would have expected if his contention had been correct, instead of practically eliminating the number of controlled houses, instead of people moving out of the houses into others, and satisfying themselves that there were better conditions prevailing in new houses which could be obtained at the same or lower rentals, 500,000 houses have remained under control. In other words, half-a-million houses, containing about 2,000,000 people, have retained their control and the occupiers have refused to move into these new circumstances which have been created by the large amount of building which has gone on—the large amount of building in those 10 years has only been 420,000 houses—and have retained the protection of the Acts. We on these benches had hoped that, as several years have intervened since the report was presented, people were beginning to feel that the old story of the Increase of Rent Acts was going to be continued and that it really did not matter a lot because the Acts were supposed to finish at the end of the year and they go on from year to year, and no one has really made any definite arrangements in order to cope with the new position that might be created, consequently leaving themselves in the position where they are not able to move with the speed which is necessary in order to do so by September of this year.
    We on these benches had hoped that if this glorious position which has been created for us was correct, and, if new houses were springing up so that all of us could obtain whatever accommodation we required at a cheaper rental than that which prevails in regard to controlled houses, that at least the benefit of the

    1259
    doubt would have been given to the few who might have been left in controlled houses, so that they might have some opportunity of finding other accommodation under these new and glorified conditions. The actual position is that, if this provision comes into force in September of this year, not only will 500,000 houses be decontrolled, but we are not at all sure—hence the Amendments which we propose to put from these benches at a later stage—that houses in Class "A" which have been turned into sub-tenancies will be conceded to us. We assume from the attitude which has been adopted all along that the Amendments will not be conceded to us, and, therefore, not only will Class "A" houses be decontrolled, but, in addition, a large number of houses let off into tenancies by the tenant will also come within the provisions of decontrol. The poor person housed in one portion of these houses will also be subject to the conditions relating to decontrol. I have studied the proviso of Clause 2 very carefully.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not anticipate the discussion which may arise on that proviso.
    Mr. JANNER: I merely want to point out that Class "A" houses are not merely the houses occupied by people who can afford to rent a house which has a rateable value of £105. The provision will fall upon a large number of people who are really rated at a lower level. There is another point. We talk of a rateable value of £105 and about reducing it to £45. We talk about £105 recoverablerent—
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I must direct the attention of the hon. Member to the fact that there are Amendments on the Paper to be discussed which raise both those points, and he had better leave the matter until the Amendments are reached.
    Mr. JANNER: It is difficult to dissociate this particular Clause from the general provisions contained in the Bill and which really affect Class "A" houses. It is really important to know the type of house which is to be affected. I 'abide by your Ruling, Captain Bourne, on this point, and will content myself with saying that a very large proportion,
    1260
    not only of the higher middle-class, but of the lower middle-class, and of the working-class will be brought into it by one clear-cut Measure which will come into force within four months from the present time. Four months is an entirely unreasonable period in which to allow people to make their arrangements. The Amendment only provides for another few months, and we certainly think, as this is the only Amendment accepted in these circumstances, we should give as long as possible to these 500,000 houses so that the tenants may adjust themselves to the new conditions and be able to take the new houses which are being provided for them at a cheaper rental. According to the statement put before us by the right hon. Gentleman, it appears that they will merely have to move from one house to another, if there are plenty of houses about.
    I do not think that it is unreasonable to ask for an extension of a few months. The landlord, we are told, certainly will not object. After all, he is getting a better rent to-day than he will when conditions are changed. The tenants ought to object, but as far as I have been able to gather they do not seem to object to control remaining. Therefore, if it is a question of covering the landlord, I think that he will be agreeably surprised to find that the period has been extended for a few months, and the tenants will be contented, and in those circumstances I think that the Committee will be agreeable to the extension, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept it.
    7.38 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    I think that a representative of the Scottish legal Department ought to be present during this Debate. I am not making a joke; I am serious. I would remind the Lord of the Treasury the hon. Gentleman the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Womersley) that he must not take this as part of the ordinary English-Scottish battle. There are not many of our problems which are distinctive, but the rent problem is distinctive with us, and in common fairness either the Lord Advocate or the Solicitor-General for Scotland should have been present. If the Solicitor-General will carry his mind

    1261
    back he will realise that I was one of the active Members associated with moving the rejection of this Measure. I wish to raise a Scottish legal problem. The Lord Advocate treats this House with an almost studied contempt, and it is about time we raised the question. I wish to raise a point in connection with the Scottish position to whch I attach great importance. The Scottish rent problem is distinct from the English problem. It contains different terms; in fact, it is wholly different. I am therefore moving to report Progress, not in order to discuss the merits of the issue, but to discuss the terms which arise in Scottish rent matters.
    7.40 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: Of course, the hon. Member realises that the issue of this Amendment is the date—29th September. At a moment when the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), who is always so fair about these things, was not present in the Committee the point was raised that the date was not convenient as regards Scotland, and I gave an undertaking that the matter should be con-
    sidered separately with regard to the Scottish point of view. I have already given that undertaking in the course of this discussion. Therefore, I think that perhaps the hon. Member, not knowing that fact, because he was not in the Chamber at the time, is a little unfair in making his point when there is no one present at the moment to deal with it.
    7.41 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I am grateful for the information, although I did not catch all that was said, but even so there are points which I wish to raise. I have been present fairly regularly, and the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General for Scotland should have been present when the hon. and learned Gentleman made his statement. I have moved to report Progress because the Scottish Law Officers ought to be present at this point in the Debate.
    Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 44; Noes, 250.

    Division No. 97.]

    AYES.

    [7.42 p.m.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Maxton, James

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Milner, Major James

    Banfield, John William

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, George Henry

    Price, Gabriel

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Brown. C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    John, William

    Thorne, William James

    Buchanan, George

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Slivertown)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Cove, William G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Willioms, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Daggar, George

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lunn, William

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    McGovern, John

    Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr. Groves

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    NOES.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Blindell, James

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Agnew, Lieut. Com. P. G.

    Bower, Lieut. -Com. Robert Tatton

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Albery, Irving James

    Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Colville, Lieut. -Colonel J.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Bracken, Brendan

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Apsley, Lord

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Copeland, Ida

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Briant, Frank

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Atholl, Duchess of

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Burnett, John George

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Cross, R. H.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Crossley, A. C.

    Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Carver, Major William H.

    Culverwell, Cyril Tom

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Bernays, Robert

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Denman, Hon. R. D.

    Denville, Alfred

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Doran, Edward

    Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Loder, Captain J. de Vere

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Elmley, Viscount

    Lyons, Abraham Montagu

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Mabane, William

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Everard, W. Lindsay

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Selley, Harry R.

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Gault, Lieut. -Col. A. Hamilton

    Magnay, Thomas

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Maitland, Adam

    Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Soper, Richard

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Meller, Richard James

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Grimston, R. V.

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Milne, Charles

    Spens, William Patrick

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Storey, Samuel

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Morris-Jones. Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Munro, Patrick

    Strauss, Edward A.

    Harbord, Arthur

    Nail, Sir Joseph

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Hartland, George A.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Nunn, William

    Thomas, James p. L. (Hereford)

    Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Thompson, Luke

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Hepworth, Joseph

    Pearson, William G.

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Peat, Charles U.

    Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

    Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

    Penny, Sir George

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Hore-Belisha, Lesile

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Wallace. Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Hornby, Frank

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Petherick, M.

    Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Pike, Cecil F.

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Potter, John

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Janner, Barnett

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Knebworth, Viscount

    Rankin, Robert

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Held, William Allan (Derby)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Lewis, Oswald

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Mr.

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Womersley.

    Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
    7.48 p.m.
    Mr. NEIL MACLEAN: On a point of Order. I want to draw attention to your Ruling on a former occasion as compared with your Ruling this evening. On the previous occasion on a Motion to report Progress, a Seconder was asked for. Tonight the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) spoke on the Motion to report progress. It is right for the Chair to
    1264
    permit him to do so. I am not questioning that but I would point out that no request was made from the Chair for anyone to second the Motion to report progress. I intended to rise and put some questions to the Solicitor-General in respect of the Motion of the hon. Member for Gorbals and I wish to ask you what are the reasons for the difference in the procedure adopted on the two separate occasions when you were in the Chair.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I am sure the hon. Member will forgive me if I

    1265
    cannot, offhand, recall the occasion to which he refers as having occurred previously. Perhaps he will be good enough to bring it to my notice in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. MACLEAN: I think it is a matter which should be told to the Committee. On the evening in question you took my Motion called for a seconder, and then you refused to put it. You refused to permit me to continue my speech on the ground that the Motion was negatived. If you will remember, I came to you afterwards after having consulted Erskine May on the point, and found that you were wrong. Erskine May points out that a Member was not permitted to continue his speech if his Motion to report Progress had been negatived. The Motion that I made was not accepted by you. You ruled it out of order. Perhaps that will bring the incident to your notice.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: To the best of my memory—I will not say that I am right—the occasion to which the hon. Member refers was in the House. Honestly, I cannot recall it more accurately. It is quite possible that the hon. Member is right and that I am wrong. He cannot expect me to recall the incident, offhand, for I think it occurred nearly two years ago.
    Mr. MACLEAN: No. It was not in the House. You were sitting in the place that you are occupying to-night. I will have the matter looked up. My memory is quite clear. The House was in Committee and I am asking why a different procedure was adopted on that occasion.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I can only reply that so far as the incident to which the hon. Member refers as having taken place, I cannot give him, offhand, an answer without having had an opportunity of looking up the matter. I am sorry that I do not remember it. I do, however, remember that on one occasion he came to me but my recollection is that I was then in the Chair of the House and not in the Chair in Committee. I may he in error, but I do not recollect the incident more accurately than that.
    Mr. MACLEAN: I shall look up the matter and raise the question on the Floor of the House.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is quite entitled to do that. In regard to his first point he will realise that under Standing Order 23, on a dilatory Motion, "That I do report Progress," or a Motion "That I do leave the Chair," if moved in Committee, it is within my discretion to accept the Motion, to put it and permit discussion on it, to put it forthwith, or to refuse to accept it. I chose the middle course, and I am not bound to give any reason for my decision.
    Mr. MACLEAN: That is not the point. I am not challenging your right in permitting an hon. Member to speak on the Motion. What I am challenging is your right to refuse to put it without calling for a Seconder.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member must realise that in Committee a Motion does not require a Seconder. If I permitted an hon. Member to speak on it I am permitting a Debate. It is within my discretion whether I should permit a Debate or not.
    7.57 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I am not criticising the two hon. Members of the Government who have come into the House, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Solicitor-General, both of whom I have always found to be courteous, anxious and willing to help hon. Members as far as they can, but I do think that the time has come when the Lord Advocate should be present. The point that I wish to raise on this Amendment is that as far as the Amendment of the Minister of Health is concerned he seeks to alter the date from the 29th September. The terms of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Cape) is to alter the date to January, 1934. Therefore, the conflict between us is as between September and January. Let me deal with the first point in regard to Scotland. These particular houses are covered by what we call the missive system in Scotland. Since the 40 per cent. increase was allowed the figure, roughly speaking, stands at about £26 10s. Consequently, all houses in Scotland of £26 10s. and under are free from the missive obligation, but once you go over the £26 10s. rent you come under

    1267
    the missive obligation. The missive binds the tenant or occupier of the house for a year following the 28th May after he has signed the missive. It is usual to ask him to sign it by the month of March, but very often he is presented with the missive earlier in the year. Cases arise where the landlord says: "If you do not sign it in March I shall refuse to allow you to sign it in April. What happened in regard to the Labour party's rooms? The trustees occupied the rooms as from May to May, but the factor said that they had the rooms from April to April and that he could refuse to let them have them unless they signed in the month of January. Here is a missive which may be signed in January, in March or in April, but not in May.
    This Bill is to come into force in September. The tenant signs a missive carrying him on for a year, to 1934, and that missive carries on the contract so that tenant must remain and occupy the house until May, 1934. If he leaves before he is legally responsible for the rent and rates. What is the position now? He takes on a house of £45 or over. The Bill says that the landlord can increase the rent, that is, he can increase the rent during the existence of a contract or a bargain. I want to know the legal position. Is the Bill to override a bond entered into between a tenant and the landlord? If it is an annual tenancy, and the landlord is given power to increase the rent in September, or even in January, then the bargain or contract is broken.
    Surely both the Amendment of the Government and the proposed Amendment to the Amendment are out of order as far as Scotland is concerned, because the Bill could not apply to this class of house before the end of May, 1934, unless they are to be permitted to break a contract. Surely it is a serious matter that an Act of Parliament should smash a written contract between tenant and occupier. But if that is to be permitted then surely it is also permissive for a tenant to give up his tenancy when he desires. The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) found himself in a fix last year when he desired to give up a heavily rented house for a better one, but he could not do so because his contract ran until 28th May. I have a brother who is a doctor, who occupies a
    1268
    £40 a year house. If he signs his missive now the rent of his house can be increased, but he himself cannot break any bargain which he has entered into. This provision does not apply to houses on a quarterly tenancy, only to houses over £40 a year, and I say that it ought not to apply in Scotland until May. I am not going into the merits of the Amendments, there is not much between September, 1933, and January, 1934, the problem will be as acute on the one date as on the other. The point I am pressing is that of the contract, and I hope that we shall have a reply from the Solicitor-General for Scotland.
    8.7 p.m.
    Mr. McENTEE: The Minister of Health does not appear to be aware of the very large number of houses within the London area which are let to subtenants. I have here a report, with which no doubt the Minister and the Department are acquainted, by a committee of the London County Council in regard to the operation of this Bill in their area, and they point out that half the houses in the London area of this class are sub-let to sub-tenants, and that most of these sub-tenants are members of the working classes—
    The CHAIRMAN: I cannot see how the hon. Member connects that question with this Amendment.
    Mr. McENTEE: I want to submit that every possible delay in bringing this Bill into force will be a benefit to these subtenants.
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member may argue that point at proper tunes, but he certainly cannot go into the question which he is proposing to go into now.
    Mr. McENTEE: I submit that these are the class of houses which are being decontrolled under the Bill at a date which we are now discussing. The difference between us is the date at which they are to come out of control. My submission is that the argument put forward by the Minister in regard to the number of houses was not correct as far as it applies to London, and that in London quite half of the sub-tenants, according to this report of the London County Council, of Class "A" houses are sub-tenants of the working classes, and that as a consequence of the Bill

    1269
    coming into force on 29th September these sub-tenants will come under the operation of the Bill and will be brought out of control. Therefore, it becomes a serious matter for these sub-tenants even if it is only a difference of three months. After all, these sub-tenants are working-class tenants, and as the Amendment to insert 1935 has not been called I feel bound to give my support to any Amendment which will delay the bringing into operation of this Bill, even if it is only for a period of three months. The other point is extremely important—it is the question of the one month's notice. The Minister proposes to insert a new date, the 29th September, 1933, and in his explanation of the reasons for this Amendment said that it would enable the landlord to give the tenant one month's notice. In most cases the tenancy in this class of house is a yearly tenancy and are entitled to a much longer notice than one month. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Government to change existing agreements and the law in regard to them by substituting one month's notice.
    The CHAIRMAN: I cannot allow that point to be raised here. It may be raised on the Amendment of the Minister of Health but not on the Amendment to the Amendment.
    Mr. McENTEE: My only point is that the Minister himself raised it and, therefore, I am asking for further information in regard to the point, which appears to be one of extreme importance. I do not desire to question your Ruling, but I think the Minister should give us some answer as to what he really means by a month's notice.
    8.12 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Mr. Normand): The Committee is much indebted to the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) for raising these matters. As regards his first point—namely, the date which appears in the Amendment, the 29th September, 1933, this has already been considered and an alteration appropriate to the circumstances of Scotland will be made in the Scottish adaptation Clause. It is proposed to substitute for that date the 28th November, 1933. As regards the other point, it is not, I think, the intention of the Amendment or of the Bill to
    1270
    alter in any way the contractual relations of landlord and tenant while a contract is in force. It is a matter of great importance and we must carefully weigh the points which have been put forward by the hon. Member and those which will be made by those who are considering the view of the Government. I can assure the hon. Member that the point will not be overlooked but will be carefully considered before the Report stage is reached.
    Mr. MACLEAN: May I ask whether the Scottish Office has been consulted in the framing of this Bill.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: Yes.
    Mr. MACLEAN: There are several other points later in the Bill which conflict with the practice in Scotland.
    8.14 p.m.
    Mr. D. GRAHAM: May I reinforce what has been said by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan). In Scotland the contract is from May to May. You sign your missive to occupy the house from May to May, and you cannot break your tenancy. If it was possible to do so I should have done it this year. It is obvious that some misunderstanding has arisen in this matter and it can only be put right by extending the date to 28th May. If a contract can be broken, under the Bill as it stands, because the house owner has a right to alter the rent from the 28th November, then clearly the tenant is put in an unfair position, and in a position into which, I suggest, the Minister of Health does not desire them to be put.
    There are landlords who have been able to take advantage of the powers they are given under the Bill to raise rents, and the tenant will have no redress whatever because he cannot break his contract and will be compelled to remain in the house. It is a substantial point that needs to be met. Otherwise there will be considerable suffering inflicted on a big proportion of the occupiers in Scotland, and particularly on the type of occupier who has been most patriotic in the sense of having supported this Government at the last election—the type of occupier who is always willing to listen to the fairy tales told by the Tory party when seeking votes. It is a piece of gross ingratitude on the part of the Government

    1271
    to have abandoned their friends in the hour of their need. I appeal to the Minister of Health to meet the Scottish Office in the matter and to extend the date to 28th May.
    8.17 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: I understand that the Solicitor-General for Scotland has promised that between now and the Report stage he will deal with the matter by inserting a date in the Scottish application of the Bill. Why wait for the Report stage?
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the learned Solicitor-General for Scotland bear in mind that the missives are now being signed, or have been signed, and that unless our proposal is adopted these people will be compelled to pay increased rents?
    8.18 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND: I am afraid I have not made things as clear as 1 intended. We shall certainly consider this point before the Report stage, when the House in Committee considers the Scottish Application Clause. When I mentioned the Report stage just now I forgot the earlier opportunity of making this change. The second point is that the effect of the Amendment will no doubt be that Houses of a certain category will become free from control as from the date which appears for England as 29th September, 1933, but will appear as another date in the Scottish application Clause. Although that is so, it will not enable any landlord to break or breach any term of a contract that is come to between him and a tenant in respect of such house. The fact is that nothing in this Bill will enable a landlord to cancel a contract which is in force between him and a tenant on the date when the house, under the Act, becomes decontrolled.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: We are to assume, then, that all the tenancies that will be affected are the statutory tenancies that come into existence under the different Acts.
    Mr. MACLEAN: My point is this: If the landlord or the factor in Scotland cannot break a contract, why not put the date in the Bill? Why not include it in the form requested by this side of the Committee?
    8.20 p.m.
    The CHAIRMAN: Perhaps I can help the Committee. Indeed I think it is really my duty to intervene. This discussion is one which would arise on Clause 9, but not here at all. Clause 9 deals especially with the application to Scotland, and that will be the place to make any alteration of any date.
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton): Although an Amendment has not yet been put down, it has been considered, and we have decided to make the appropriate alteration for Scotland in the application Clause.
    The CHAIRMAN: Then it is not really a question which arises here. Hon. Members interested in the Scottish position have the definite statement from the Government that the matter will be dealt with in Clause 9. I do not want to be too strict, but it would have been possible to have ruled out of order any discussion on such an alteration of the date here for Scottish purposes.
    8.22 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I am very interested in the point that has been raised by the hon. Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan), for there is a great deal of substance in it. We are dealing with the date of the coming into operation of the Bill. I agree entirely with the claims made by the representatives of Scotland, but those of us who are Englishmen have a word to say on the subject. Whatever the Minister may have promised to the hon. Member for Gorbals, I think I am right in saying that there are contracts in respect of houses in England and and Wales that fall very nearly into the same category. I therefore, want the Minister to bear in mind those of us who live in England and Wales.
    8.23 p.m.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I have a great deal of sympathy with the desire of the hon. Member to see that England secures any privilege that is given to Scotland, and I can promise him that I shall be a most jealous guardian of the rest of my compatriots in the matter. There is nothing in the Act or the Amendment to interfere with any existing contracts.
    8.24 p.m.
    Sir HENRY CAUTLEY: I wish to raise a point on a question of construc-

    1273
    tion, and to put it to the learned Solicitor-General for Scotland. Something has been said about sub-tenants of Class "A" houses. How are they to be protected? I expected the Minister to say something about them. Sub-section (2) as amended by the Minister's proposal would read:
    "As from the twenty-ninth day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, the principal Acts shall not apply to any dwelling-house unless"—
    The CHAIRMAN: The hon. and learned Gentleman is going into the terms of the Minister's Amendment, but I would point out to him that we are now dealing with an Amendment to that Amendment, which relates solely to the question of whether the date is to be 20th September, 1933, or 1st January, 1934.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: And my conclusion upon that question depends on the construction of these words. That is why I was limiting my question to that point. I do not quite understand the effect of these words and I could not come to a conclusion upon it without some explanation. Perhaps I may put the point which is only a short one. The words which I have been quoting go on as follows:
    "unless it is a dwelling-house to which they applied immediately before the passing of this Act, or then formed part of such s dwelling-house."
    What does that mean? How could it form part of a dwelling-house? It is more a legal question than anything else
    and perhaps I should have addressed it to the Solicitor-General.
    8.28 p.m.
    Sir H. YOUNG: Though it be a legal question, let me do my best to reply to it. I think these words have been inserted from a drafting point of view to make it clear that what we are dealing with here is the unit of the dwelling-house, whether it be part of a larger dwelling or not, provided that, if it is a sub-let part of a larger dwelling, it comes within the limits as regards rateable value or recoverable rent. Throughout the Clause we are dealing with the dwelling-house—sometimes it is part of the single structure and sometimes it is the structure.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: Does it not follow that sub-tenancies of Class "A" houses are protected and come within the control?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I think the hon. and learned Member will find that that matter comes up for discussion on a later Clause which deals with the decontrol of sub-tenancies, and he will find that the distinguishing characteristic which decides whether there is decontrol or not, is whether the tenancy was created by the landlord of the whole house or by the sub-tenant of that landlord.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 59.

    Division No. 98.]

    AYES.

    [8.29 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Apsley, Lord

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Aske, Sir Robert William

    Cazalet, Capt, V. A. (Chippenham)

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Forestier-Walker, Sir Leolin

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Copeland, Ida

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Beaumont, Hn. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

    Gault, Lieut. -Col. A. Hamilton

    Beit, Sir Alfred L.

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Glossop, C. W. H

    Borodale, Viscount

    Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Crossley, A. C.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Bracken, Brendan

    Cruddas, Lieut. -Colonel Bernard

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Greene, William P. C.

    Briscoe, Capt, Richard George

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Doran, Edward

    Grimston, R. V.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Drewe, Cedric

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Duckworth, George A. V.

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Burnett, John George

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Elmley, Viscount

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Selley, Harry R.

    Hartland, George A.

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Munro, Patrick

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-in-F.)

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmstord)

    Nunn, William

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Hepworth, Joseph

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

    Pearson, William G.

    Soper, Richard

    Hornby, Frank

    Peat, Charles U.

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Horobin Ian M.

    Penny, Sir George

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Spens, William Patrick

    Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Peters, Dr. Sidney John

    Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)

    Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

    Petherick, M.

    Stevenson, James

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Storey, Samuel

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Potter, John

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Summersby, Charles H.

    Knebworth, Viscount

    Procter, Major Henry Adam

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)

    Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

    Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

    Leckie, J. A.

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Thompson, Luke

    Lewis, Oswald

    Rankin, Robert

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Turton, Robert Hugh

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Mabane, William

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    MacAndrew, Capt. J, O. (Ayr)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

    McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Maitland, Adam

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Womersley, Walter James

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Worthington, Dr. John V.

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

    Salt, Edward W.

    Meller, Richard James

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward

    Milne, Charles

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    and Captain Sir George Bowyer.

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

    Maxton, James

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Milner, Major James

    Banfield, John William

    Harris, Sir Percy

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, George Henry

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Bernays, Robert

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    Price, Gabriel

    Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)

    Janner, Barnett

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Briant, Frank

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

    Salter, Dr. Alfred

    Buchanan, George

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Thorne, William James

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Kirkwood, David

    Wallhead, Richard C.

    Cove, William G.

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Daggar, George

    Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Lunn, William

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    McGovern, John

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Groves, Thomas E.

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Mr. John and Mr. Duncan Graham.

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Proposed words there inserted.
    The CHAIRMAN: Mr. Banfield.
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: On a point of Order. There is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Rhys) and other hon. Members, including myself, in page 1, line 12, to insert, after the word "dwelling-house" the words:
    1276
    "bona fide used for the purposes of private residence only."
    Does that not come in here?
    The CHAIRMAN: That Amendment was not selected, as not being in the proper place here.
    Sir BASIL PETO: May I point out to the hon. and learned Member for East Grinstead (Sir H. Cautley) that I propose to move an Amendment, also in my name,

    1277
    two pages later on the Order Paper, to insert, in line 25, after the word "premises," the words "used as a shop or"?
    Sir H. CAUTLEY: I was not aware of that arrangement having been made.
    The CHAIRMAN: In any case, the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member was not one of those selected for discussion.
    8.42 p.m.
    Mr. BANFIELD: I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out from the word "is" to the second word "a" in line 15.
    The purpose of the Amendment is to leave out the words:
    "a dwelling-house to which they applied immediately before the passing of this Act or then formed part of such a dwelling-house if it is."
    The removal of these words is necessary in order to pave the way towards an Amendment to bring back into control houses that have been decontrolled, provided their rents do not exceed the amount laid down in the Bill. I am fully conscious of the difficulties which may be put forward in dealing with the question of controlling once again any house that has already become decontrolled, but I would point out to the Minister that the Bill itself and his speech in introducing it show very conclusively indeed the very strong case that there is for control to be still exercised, particularly over the Class "C" houses. I can imagine nothing more likely to give rise to friction, discontent, and bitter feeling, as it does already, than the fact that in precisely the same class of house, with exactly the same accommodation, one tenant may be paying, and is paying in many cases, anything up to 50 or 60 per cent. more than his neighbour on either side. It appears to me that, in view of the fact that ever since the Marley Report, upon which this Bill was based, circumstances have altered considerably, and that there have been drastic reductions in wages among all classes of people, the majority of the tenants of Class "C" houses in particular are to-day less able than ever to pay even the increase of 40 per cent. over pre-war rents.
    The vast majority of the 3,000,000 unemployed occupy Class "C" houses, and many of them, through circum-
    1278
    stances over which they have no control, have been obliged to remove from controlled to decontrolled houses. There is no justice nor reason why there should be differentiation between one person and another and one house controlled and another decontrolled. It is strange in face of a good many remarks that have been made in the House to-day to realise that, in spite of all that has been done, the housing shortage remains, that people are helpless in face of economic circumstances, and that very poor people, people on transitional payment and with wives and families to keep on less than 30s. per week, are, through force of circumstances, obliged to occupy decontrolled houses and to pay exorbitant rents. The Minister might take into consideration the equalisation of rents as between one person and another. It is true that if the Amendment were carried it would apply not only to Class "C" houses; it would apply to each class of house mentioned in the Bill; but I believe that there is also a strong case to be put up for some equality of treatment among the tenants of Class "B" houses.
    In view of the hardships which exist among the unemployed and among the black coated people who, in the main, occupy Class "B" houses, and the hardships of the wage earners who have had their wages reduced 30 and 40 per cent. as compared with even two years ago, the Minister must recognise that there is a limit to what the majority of people can pay in rent. I have heard hon. Members talking as if by the end of five years things will work themselves out and all houses will be able to be decontrolled, but the Government must recognise that rents cannot continue to go up. Rent is the biggest factor for the vast majority of people, not only among the working classes, but among the non-manual workers. Rent is the biggest problem most of our people have to face. It is admitted, and the Minister has never attempted to deny it, that decontrol means increases in rent. The pressure of the landlord class in the House and outside has been directed to the Government to do away with any kind of control. They expect, and know that in the circumstances of the next five years they will get bigger rents.
    This question cannot possibly remain where it is. If the Government think that people can continue to pay rents

    1279
    which are exorbitant in relation to the wages and salaries received by the majority of people, and if they think that that exorbitant standard can be maintained for the next five years and beyond, there will be a serious revolt. The position will arise in which hundreds of thousands of people will declare that unless rents come down there will be no rents at all. I believe that if we could get these houses back under control it would stop what I consider will be little short of a rent ramp within the next five years. If the Government will get back these houses under control and give people an equality of justice in this matter they will have done something to allay a considerable amount of discontent. Out of 26s. or 27s. a week people have to pay at least 10s. in rent, even for houses which are in some measure under control, and more is asked for houses which are decontrolled; and it is obvious that the payment of this huge proportion of the family income for rent cannot possibly be continued.
    I know that the Minister has already expressed the opinion that the difficulties of bringing decontrolled houses under control again are far too great, but I suggest to him that the real reason is that the landlord class want to get rid of control as soon as they can. I do not suggest that we look upon control as a permanency, but I suggest that under present conditions and under the conditions that are likely to obtain for the next five years it is useless to talk about decontrol unless we can at the same time curb a little the greed of many of the landlords who are concerned only about what they can wring out of their tenants and who, in many cases, have never done their duty towards their tenants in their obligation to carry out repairs and to make the houses decent and comfortable. Unless the Government are prepared to control the greed and selfishness of so many landlords, a serious situation will come about sooner or later. I am positive that the inequality of rents and the question of the control of one house and the decontrol of another will cause a great deal of bitter discontent which sooner or later will come to a head. Up to now has been quiescent because, ingrained in the heart and mind of most English people, particularly the poorer classes, is that whatever comes and what-
    1280
    ever goes the rent must be paid. If, however, rents go up too high the day will come when they will refuse to pay, and the Government will have to deal with the situation in a far more drastic way.
    8.55 p.m.
    Mr. LLEWELLYN-JONES: I think I can see the object which the hon. Member has in view, and realise that it would meet with the approval of many people, but at the same time I am quite convinced that the Amendment would bring about a hopeless state of affairs in various parts of the country. In view of the Amendment put forward by the Minister of Health, which was adopted a few minutes ago, the Clause, if this further Amendment were adopted, would read in this way:
    "As from the twenty-ninth day of September one thousand nine hundred and thirty-three the principal Act shall not apply to any dwelling-house unless it is a dwelling-house of which either the annual amount of the recoverable rent on the appointed day or the rateable value on the appointed day did not exceed"
    and so on; and it goes on to give the figures for London, Scotland and other parts of the country. I suggest that if this Amendment were accepted the result might be that practically all the houses within the categories mentioned further on in the Clause would immediately become subject to control. So long as the words "Subject to the provisions of the principal Act" remain in the Clause, it is obvious that this Amendment would bring back under control those houses which had been taken out of control by the operation of previous Acts. Consider the type of house which would again be brought under control by this Amendment. Anyone who has had experience of the administration of the rent Acts and of property transactions will realise that houses which were once controlled houses have been sold. Many of them have been bought by members of the working class, who have raised mortgages on them from building societies or other sources. In some cases the person who bought the house may have had to leave it, or the owner may have died and the members of his family who inherited the house have subsequently let it. It is easy to see that a large amount of injustice would be done to persons

    1281
    who have bought these houses under the impression that they were decontrolled, and apart from that there would be injustice in many other ways and we should create a vast amount of confusion.
    Although the object of the Amendment is a commendable one, I can hardly think the Committee will bring back under control many houses which for eight, nine or 10 years have been decontrolled houses, and have in that period passed from one hand to another, perhaps been sold two or three times. To realise how widespread the consequences might be, one has only to look at the returns giving the number of houses which have gone out of decontrol. The number of working-class houses decontrolled is 850,000. A large number of those houses are now in the occupation of their owners, but in a very large number of cases also the houses are in the occupation of tenants. Agreements with regard to structural alterations have been made and obligations as regards mortgages entered into, and many of the owners, who are working men themselves, would be very severely hit if this Amendment were adopted. I trust the Committee will reject the Amendment, as it would only cause a good deal of confusion and create injustices.
    9.0 p.m.
    Mr. D. GRAHAM: Whatever may be the position as regards the type of houses acquired by people who have borrowed money from building societies and in other ways, as described by the hon. Member, that state of affairs does not apply in Scotland to the members of the working classes who live in tenement dwellings, among whom are large numbers of people engaged in the mining industry. Their experience during the last 10 years has been that the landlord has taken every advantage of existing legislation at their expense. He has used all sorts of cunning and wiles to get a tenant out of a house and has then immediately raised the rent, with the result that in many cases there are people living next door to one another paying a rent of, may be, £20 in one case and in the other nearer £40. Since the beginning of the century rents have increased, generally speaking, by something like 100 per cent. The Minister of Health may indicate his dissent, but
    1282
    there are other authorities beside him, and it is the fact that the rents of colliery houses have increased during the course of the present century by over 100 per cent. According to the information given to the Royal Commission on Housing which sat in 1911, rents in Glasgow were 1s. 6½d. per room, and they have increased to 2s. 10¼d. That statement applies to the regular tenants of houses, and has nothing to do with tenants who have been fraudulently deprived of their houses so that the landlord might increase the rent.
    I frankly say that the object of this Amendment is to bring back those houses under control. I suggest to hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that the warning given by my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment ought to be taken to heart. I am old enough to remember the beginning of the Parnellite movement. The rent question was the beginning of the trouble in Ireland, and as a result we see Ireland as it is to-day; and during the War even the Army could not have kept the people in the West of Scotland from open rebellion against the tactics that were employed by the people who owned the houses and to a large extent controlled the lives of the people in working-class areas.
    I will appeal to the Minister of Health. If he is really actuated by patriotic motives, he should take advantage of the very reasonable advice given by my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment; he should take notice also of the warning that if the same thing happens again, if houses are decontrolled and rents are increased to the extent to which the rents of decontrolled houses have been increased, there will be nothing less than the beginning of a rent war. I am not prepared to tell a man who is living on 15s. 3d. a week that he should pay his rent first. Food for his wife and family are of infinitely greater importance to him and his than the payment of an exorbitant rack-rent to the people who own the houses in our areas in the west and south-west of Scotland.
    We might not have a very great deal of experience in legal matters, but we know something of the conditions under which the working-class are living, and we know the type of house in which they live. We know also the unreasonable rents that are

    1283
    charged for those houses, and we want the Government to meet the plea that, until the period of rent control ceases altogether, and is taken from the Statute Book, rents for houses occupied not only by the working-class, but by a big proportion of those who are generally described as black-coated people, should be re-controlled, if the Government wishes to give fair play to the people who are living in those houses. I desire to see peace, and I do not want to see rent war or strikes of any kind, if they can be avoided, but we have reached the position in which there is no alternative but to offer the advice that we have given. It is advice born of experience and knowledge of the actual conditions. For these reasons, we hope that the Minister of Health will be prepared to meet the claim which we make that this Amendment should be accepted by the Government, who should say that an increase of these rents will not be allowed.
    9.8 p.m.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I am aware, of course, of the desire of the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) on this subject, because he was the only member of the Marley Committee who recommended re-control of the decontrolled houses. Let me remind him that there were other members of that committee who had intimate and first-hand knowledge of Scottish conditions and who differed from him in their settled conviction. The hon. Member for Hamilton asked me if we were proposing an immediate decontrol of working-class houses. As a matter of fact, we are not doing so. We are proposing to perpetuate the control of class "C" houses for five years, so as to ensure for that period that there is no diminution of the pool of class "C" houses available at controlled rents. We do not propose to re-control the decontrolled houses. The reasons for that decision on the part of the Government are those which were given with incontrovertible force by the Marley Committee. Those reasons show that whether you think you ought, or would like to, do it, it is impossible now to say that, by the stroke of the pen, you are going to re-control some 850,000 houses which have been decontrolled in the whole pool of 5,700,000.
    The first reason which is advanced by the Marley Committee involves a con-
    1284
    sideration which will always be raised by any retrospective legislation of the sort, and that is that you do more solid injustice than you do justice. You would do injustice to those who have invested their money and purchased decontrolled houses at their present value. Why should you confiscate what they have invested? Consider the positive injustice and social harm to those who have conferred a social benefit by improving and re-conditioning these houses, and who depend upon the freedom to get a fair commercial return upon the fresh capital which they have put into them. You would be permitting a kind of fraud upon those who have inherited property of this sort from those who died during the period.
    During the 10 years that have elapsed since the beginning of decontrol there has been a readjustment of rights and equities in this matter which it is now impossible to put back. If you seek to do so, in comparison with any benefit which you may think you are securing, you will do a great and positive harm and injustice to those concerned. I remember referring to another matter in the Second Reading Debate, and inviting the particular attention of the House, as I will do upon this occasion. I ask the House to consider: If you re-control decontrolled houses, how, according to any principle of commonsense, can you refuse to extend the re-controlling process to new houses The hon. Member for Hamilton will follow out to any conclusion the convictions that he holds, however extravagant the conclusion may be. Some 700,000 new houses have been built, with a firm assurance from the law to those who built them and who ought to be receiving a commercial return upon their invested capital. The hon. Member for Hamilton proposes to extend his retroactive legislation to them.
    We desire to get a supply of small houses through the operation of the productive forces of investment. I should despair of doing so if I rendered the employment of capital and enterprise in that behalf subject to some such action as this, and if the houses were made subject to control, with a limitation upon the return which investors expect. I believe that the deepest social instincts are involved in drawing the line where we have drawn it, in stopping decontrol and

    1285
    saying that you cannot go back and re-control the houses which have been decontrolled.
    9.15 p.m.
    Mr. LEWIS: The Mover of this Amendment laid considerable stress on the fact that, as he said, rent forms so high a proportion of the total outgoings in an average working-class home. That, of course, is a circumstance of the greatest gravity and importance. The hon. Member went on to say that in his judgment rents must come down. As I understood him, he advocated an all-round reduction in the rents charged for working-class dwelling-houses. I wonder whether he realises the implication of that argument? The rent of property varies with the cost or constructing the property, and, in the case of small house property of the kind to which the hon. Member referred, the principal item in the cost of construction is the wages paid to the building operatives. Therefore, when the hon. Member and his friends say they want an all-round reduction in the rent of property of this kind, they are really making a covert attack upon the wages of building operatives, and I think it is well that that implication should be brought to the attention of the Committee. Personally, I do not believe that a strong case can be, made out for a severe reduction in the rates of pay of building operatives, and, therefore, I do not believe that an all-round reduction in rents such as the hon. Member advocates is possible. But at least I hope that those Members who advocate an all-round reduction in rents will realise the implication of what they say, namely, that it would entail a substantial reduction in the wages of building operatives.
    9.17 p.m.
    Mr. CHARLES BROWN: I was surprised to hear the Minister characterise this Amendment as an attempt to put back the clock. He went on to say that you could not put back the clock. I should not have thought that that would have been a difficult task for this National Government. Anyway, they have been putting back the clock ever since they came into office. So far as trading relations are concerned, they have put it back about a century. I thought the Minister made a very poor reply to the arguments in favour of the Amendment. Having taken a very wide survey of
    1286
    housing conditions in the country, he has presented to the House this Bill, in which he is compelled to make proposals for retaining control of more than 4,000,000 Class "C" houses for another five years, because he fears the grave social injustice which would arise if decontrol took place at once.
    The Minister knows that in the last few years some 850,000 houses have been decontrolled, and he must know also that that decontrol, as was made clear by the Mover of the Amendment, has occasioned very serious injustices to large numbers of tenants. The Minister himself, in this very legislation, dare not let houses of that type be decontrolled at once, because he fears the grave social abuses and injustices which would arise. La this Amendment we merely ask that the injustices already perpetrated on innumerable working class tenants should be rectified by recontrolling the houses which have been decontrolled. To my way of thinking, the very argument that the Minister uses in favour of continuing control of 4,000,000 houses for five years, is an argument that we are entitled to use when we are asking him to recontrol those houses which have already been decontrolled, because upon those tenants the same injustice has been perpetrated from which be seeks to protect 4,000,000 other tenants by the prolongation of control for five years.
    9.20 p.m.
    Mr. McGOVERN: I desire to associate myself with this very reasonable Amendment. The question raised by the hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. C. Brown) is an extremely important one, namely, the question why the Government are not decontrolling all these houses, if it is proper that some of them should be decontrolled. I take it that the Government realise that during the past few years there has been a continually falling market so far as wages and salaries are concerned, and that there is a complete inability to pay the increased rents that would be demanded if all these houses were decontrolled. Agreeing with that, I think it is also quite logical that the houses which have been decontrolled should be brought under control again.
    In the case of those houses which have been decontrolled, the tenants have been subject to very grave abuses by landlords and house factors throughout Scot-

    1287
    land, and especially in the industrial parts. As the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) has said, people living in tenements on the same landing are paying different rents. I know of tenements where three or four different rents are being charged. A typical example will illustrate the point. I have in mind the case of an employed man living in a controlled house and paying 7s. 9d. per week. His wage is £3 per week, and he has no family. Across the landing is a man who is unemployed, who has six children under 14, and who is called upon, in a decontrolled house, to pay 10s. 6d. per week. Can anybody on the Government benches say that there is any equity or justice in such conditions as these.
    If the argument were that a similar type of house across the way was a new house, which had cost more money to build, which had additional compartments, or, at least, the ordinary modern arrangements of a new house, one could perhaps understand, while not agreeing altogether with it, the necessity for an increased rental. But, in a property where the Government have recognised that they dare not decontrol all the houses, they ought, to be logical, to bring within the ambit of the Bill those which have already been decontrolled, and for which tenants are paying exorbitant rents. I have also in mind a specific case relating to property of the same kind under different landlords. One landlord, under decontrol, says, in a humane and reasonable manner, that, although he is at liberty, on decontrol, to raise the rents, it is wrong to raise them to an exorbitant figure, and he passes 1s. per week on to the house. The landlord across the way, however, passes 4s. a week on to the house. Therefore, even under decontrol, you have what might be termed the good landlord and the bad landlord.
    The Minister says that if the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) is logical, he ought also to agree that the houses which have been built since decontrol came into operation should also be brought within the scope of the Bill. The hon. Member for Hamilton has no difficulty in agreeing to that, nor have I. We have to remember that where you built a house costing £500 10 years ago, and which now costs £250, owing to cheaper money and to the cheaper cost of
    1288
    houses, you are entitled to say that you have to cut your loss, and have only the right to the present market value. There should be no increase in the rent, but it should be brought within the scope of the Bill and there should be a fixed rental for it. The logic has been with the hon. Member for Hamilton, and it is the Minister of Health and the Government who are taking up an illogical position. They are not allowing control in a large number of these houses out of any humane instinct or sympathy with the people, but because they believe that if they were to put the whole of the tenants under the same process of rack-renting there might be a rent war stirred up and the Government, the property owners and the bondholders might suffer in consequence. Therefore they say, "Let us divide to conquer." Those houses which have already passed out of control are to be left to the landlord and you are to allow control to operate, and, by the process of years, as changes of tenancy take place, you will find that the landlords are able to get the houses out of control and get increased rental.
    Then in connection with houses that are already under control we have seen many processes for getting tenants out of houses. Every form of trickery is used by landlords and house factors in Glasgow. You hear of a summons to court for rent. The landlord or the factor comes along and says there is no need to go to court, and he will accept a settlement of eight or nine shillings a week. The poor woman accepts his word and does not attend court. Then a decree is obtained in the absence of the woman and she is put out and an increased rental is obtained. Factors have candidly admitted to me that their job was not to accept settlements from tenants but to get them out of houses in order to get an enhanced value on the property and retain the bonds at the old figure of £800. With every form of trickery being used, the tenant is placed in a very difficult position. I did think the Minister might have accepted an Amendment of this character to bring within the scope of the Bill those who are likely to be the victims of increased rental.
    When the Minister talks about those who have inherited property, I would ask, what about those who have inherited poverty I Surely they are more entitled

    1289
    to consideration. I remember many years ago the late Mr. Wheatley was asked at a meeting, when he proposed controlling the whole rents of houses, "What about the poor old woman who has been left a tenement property which is her only means of livelihood?" He replied, "I would arrange a conference of all the old widows who have inherited property and the widows who are the tenants and allow them to settle the matter between themselves." I do suggest to the Minister he should not give us that sort of sob-stuff. When we were told about the poor old woman who has been left property, I almost saw tears in the eyes of the Minister as he trotted that imaginary old woman out. That old woman is generally some big company or trust which has invested money in property, and which is extorting the last farthing and shilling out of the tenants. I advise the Minister not to go in for sob-stuff of that character. We have met these poor old women who have inherited property—with tall hats and white spats, periodically going round for the rents and threatening all kinds of things if the tenants do not pay up.
    That is not up to the standard of the Minister of Health, who usually advances better reasons. If that is the best thing he can think of, he had better go back to the Cabinet, his masters, and ask them for some other argument. We go down to the courts periodically and see these poor people there, with the lawyers and all the legal tribe in Glasgow trying to extract rents. I think this is a most reasonable suggestion. I know quite well the Minister of Health has come here as the man with the big stick. Very well, you can go on with the process, but the present system is gradually reducing incomes. This is going to apply a means test to families with rentals. Then go on with the process of declining incomes in the homes and go on maintaining the old standard of rentals, and it will mean in a very short time an intensification of the war against the ruling classes. This Amendment, besides being modest in every shape or form, is reasonable and has logic behind it, and it ought to be accepted by the Government.
    9.32 p.m.
    Mr. BATEY: Those Members of the Committee who have spoken against this
    1290
    Amendment have pointed out the difficulties if it be accepted. We do not say that there would not be any difficulties. What we do say is that it is the business of this House to get over difficulties. As a matter of fact, we are Always legislating on difficult questions, and because there may be slight difficulties in connection with this Amendment that is not the material objection to it. The Minister did not attempt to deal with any of the difficulties when he replied. All he dealt with was the point that there would be some injustice involved if this Amendment were carried. He said there would be injustice to those who had bought these houses, to those who had reconditioned them, and to those who had died and where Death Duties had been paid.
    I would like the Minister to remember that there is some injustice at the present time to the working classes who have got to pay these increased rents. We should be unfaithful to the working classes if we did not take this opportunity to point out to the Committee their difficult position, in having to pay these rents for decontrolled houses. The rent of decontrolled houses, we are told officially, has increased between 85 per cent. and 90 per cent. If the whole of the 850,000 decontrolled houses were owned by the occupiers we might have no case, but the great majority of them are inhabited by tenants in receipt of low wages and who have to pay these increased rents. Therefore, we claim that these tenants are entitled to consideration, and that something should be done to bring these decontrolled houses—and especially those that are not in the occupation of the owners but inhabited by tenants—back into control.
    I remember the Debate that took place in 1923 when the House decided to make provision for decontrol. If the House had imagined then that the rents of the houses that would go out of control would be increased by 85 per cent. or 90 per cent., while the rent of the controlled houses remained at something like 50 per cent., it would not so readily have agreed to decontrol. With the experience that we have had, we ought to take some steps to bring the bulk of those 850,000 houses which have been decontrolled back into control.
    Mr. JANNER: Will the hon. Member tell us why in 1924 and 1629 his party did not do what he is suggesting now?
    Mr. BATEY: If the hon. Member had been in the House at that time, he would not need to ask that question. Not only do we need to bring back those 850,000 houses under control, but there is some need for something to be done to bring the rents of new houses under control. There are huge numbers of men in the North of England in receipt of extremely low wages, to say nothing of unemployment relief and transitional benefit, and the rents are too high for working men to pay. To me this is a most important Amendment and not one that ought to be brushed aside. It is essential, in the interest of the very poorest of the working classes, to bring back houses which have been decontrolled and to pull down the rents which have been so greatly increased.
    9.39 p.m.
    Mr. BUCHANAN: There is another tragic feature that I see in this business. Before the owner of a controlled house can get possession, he has to prove that he needs it for one of his family or for a person engaged in his business, but the moment the house is decontrolled that does not need to be proved. Here you have 800,000 people who may fall into arrears with their rent, and they have not the protection that the controlled people have. I think Glasgow is much the same as any other centre. There are large blocks of tenement dwellings in the centre of Liverpool. A business may want to extend. In the case of a controlled house, the owner must go to the court and state the reasons why the house is to be taken over, but the moment the house passes out of control the occupier is left defenceless.
    Sir B. PETO: Are these tenement dwellers of whom the hon. Member is speaking in houses of a rateable value of £45 a year?
    Mr. BUCHANAN: The hon. Baronet has not gripped the Amendment. Its object is to bring back into control every house that is out of control. A large number of the houses that have passed out of control are small houses, and it is vital in their case that the tenant should be given the protection of the court. I want to put this to the miners' and steel-
    1292
    workers' representatives. There is a steel works in my division, and the owner also owns the houses. In 1926 a large number of these men struck work in sympathy with the miners, and others were locked out. Before a tenant can be put out of a controlled house, the owner has to prove that he needs it for a certain specific purpose, and the Glasgow sheriffs have exercised the law with a vigilance which is to their credit from the tenant's point of view. What happens is that a removal takes place, the house becomes decontrolled and the new tenant has no longer the protection of the court. The firm can now come along and say, "If you do not work for a certain wage, or if you do not agree to certain conditions, we can put you out of your house for any reason that we like," whereas in the protected case they must show definite legal grounds on which it may be done. This aspect in some respects is as great as the question of increased rent.
    I speak only from my knowledge of the City of Glasgow, and the peculiarity in that city is that there are three classes of houses occupied by what may be called the working-class. There are the houses occupied by the very poor, by the artisans, and by what may be termed the very comfortable of the working population, such as teachers or civil servants. To some extent, the landlords are faced with economic conditions. In the poorer class houses one of the difficulties of the landlord is that he may remove one person because he cannot get his rent and yet the poor person who follows the ejected tenant also usually accumulates debt. Frequently houses are owned by companies, and in those cases, where there has been removal, you are giving power to increase the rent, and power almost of life and death over the tenant. This aspect ought to be faced by the Solicitor-General and the Solicitor-General for Scotland.
    I raise these points because they are of substance. When you talk of injustice and inequality, you should not forget that it is not only a, question of increase of rent but of leaving tenants open to attack. I have never been a critic of the legal profession. At times I have been indebted to the profession of the hon. and learned Gentleman. The thing which amazes me is that sometimes solicitors

    1293
    particularly those from Scotland, come here and allow things to go too easy and leave me to protect them. I have been indebted to the profession both in Scotland and in England for services given gratuitously, but in this case I desire the protection of the courts for these people. The protection of the courts is a valuable protection, but the worst feature is that the protection of the courts is being taken away from the tenant.
    There is another aspect of this problem upon which I wish to say a flew words, and again I hope that hon. Members will not be too critical if I deal with what I call the Glasgow problem, which I know best. A large number of the small houses which are decontrolled are occupied by low-wage men and by men who are unemployed. These people get into difficulties with their rent. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, to his credit, has aided us by getting the Poor Law authorities to make grants so that these people may continue to occupy their houses in times of difficulty. In Glasgow a great number of the people who have to apply for public assistance come from decontrolled houses. They are usually new houses which have been decontrolled because of new tenancies and because the tenants have not the protection of the courts, and can therefore be more easily evicted. The Clause will result in throwing upon local authorities
    a burden of rent which will add considerably to the problem of rates.
    When hon. Members talk of injustices, they should try to remember the injustice created by the existence of both high-rated areas and low-rated areas. I appeal to the Government on this issue. They have been fair about the Bill. When they introduced it, they practically said that it was based upon the report of the Marley Committee. The Marley Committee dovetailed the whole thing so-perfectly that it was not possible to disturb it. It was a great compliment to a Member of the Labour party that he had shown so much knowledge, skill and draftsmanship. We have hitherto always heard that Labour was unfit to govern, but on this occasion it has done well. I wish that one could say that of all Members of the Labour party, but one does not want to go into those issues. The Government are causing great injustice because they are taking away the valuable protection of the courts, and are going to throw a burden upon local areas which they can ill afford to bear. I would ask the Minister of Health, the Solicitor-General, and the Solicitor-General for Scotland to give us at least the protection of the courts for many of those very poor people.
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'if,' in line 15, stand part of the Clause."
    The Committee divided: Ayes, 235; Noes, 40.

    Division No. 99.]

    AYES.

    [9.54 p.m.

    Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

    Cadogan, Hon. Edward

    Drewe, Cedric

    Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

    Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

    Duckworth, George A. V,

    Albery, Irving James

    Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

    Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

    Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)

    Caporn, Arthur Cecil

    Duggan, Hubert John

    Apsley, Lord

    Carver, Major William H.

    Duncan, James A. L.(Kensington, N.)

    Atkinson, Cyril

    Castle Stewart, Earl

    Dunglass, Lord

    Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.

    Cautley, Sir Henry S.

    Eastwood, John Francis

    Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

    Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)

    Elliston, Captain George Sampson

    Balfour, George (Hampstead)

    Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

    Emmott, Charles E. G. C.

    Balniel, Lord

    Cobb, Sir Cyril

    Emrys-Evans, P. V.

    Barclay-Harvey, C. M,

    Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.

    Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

    Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey

    Colfox, Major William Philip

    Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)

    Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

    Conant, R. J. E.

    Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

    Beaumont, M. w. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

    Cook, Thomas A.

    Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

    Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)

    Cooke, Douglas

    Ford, Sir Patrick J.

    Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

    Copeland, Ida

    Fox, Sir Gifford

    Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

    Courtauld, Major John Sewell

    Fremantle, Sir Francis

    Boulton, W. W.

    Craven-Ellis, William

    Fuller, Captain A. G.

    Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

    Crooke, J. Smedley

    Ganzoni, Sir John

    Bowyar, Capt. Sir George E. W.

    Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

    Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton

    Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

    Croom-Johnson, R. P.

    Gillett, Sir George Masterman

    Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

    Cross, R. H.

    Glossop, C. W. H.

    Briant, Frank

    Crossley, A. C.

    Gluckstein, Louis Halle

    Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

    Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

    Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

    Broadbent, Colonel John

    Curry, A. C

    Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

    Brocklebank, C. E. R.

    Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

    Gower, Sir Robert

    Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)

    Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

    Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

    Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

    Doran, Edward

    Greene, William P. C.

    Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

    McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)

    Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)

    Grimston, R. V.

    Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

    Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

    Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.

    Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot

    Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

    Guy, J. C. Morrison

    Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

    Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

    Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

    Marsden, Commander Arthur

    Salmon, Sir Isidore

    Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

    Martin, Thomas B.

    Salt, Edward W.

    Hanbury, Cecil

    Mayhew, Lieut.-Colon el John

    Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

    Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

    Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

    Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

    Hartland, George A.

    Milne, Charles

    Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

    Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

    Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)

    Selley, Harry R.

    Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)

    Mitcheson, G. G.

    Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

    Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

    Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

    Shute, Colonel J. J.

    Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

    Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

    Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Unv., Belfast)

    Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

    Muirhead, Major A, J.

    Skelton, Archibald Noel

    Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

    Munro, Patrick

    Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

    Hepworth, Joseph

    Nall, Sir Joseph

    Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)

    Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

    Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

    Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

    Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

    Normand, Wilfrid Guild

    Somervell, Donald Bradley

    Holdsworth, Herbert

    O'Connor, Terence James

    Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

    Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

    O'Donovan, Dr. William James

    Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)

    Hornby, Frank

    Oman, Sir Charles William C.

    Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

    Horobin, Ian M.

    Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.

    Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

    Horsbrugh, Florence

    Patrick, Colin M.

    Spens, William Patrick

    Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

    Pearson, William G.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

    Hume, Sir George Hopwood

    Peat, Charles U.

    Stevenson, James

    Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

    Penny, Sir George

    Storey, Samuel

    James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.

    Percy, Lord Eustace

    Stourton, Hon. John J.

    Janner, Barnett

    Perkins, Walter R. D.

    Strickland, Captain W. F.

    Jennings, Roland

    Petherick, M.

    Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

    Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)

    Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)

    Sutcliffe, Harold

    Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)

    Pickering, Ernest H.

    Tate, Mavis Constance

    Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

    Potter, John

    Thompson, Luke

    Ker, J. Campbell

    Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

    Thorp, Linton Theodore

    Kerr, Hamilton W.

    Pownall, Sir Assheton

    Touche, Gordon Cosmo

    Law, Sir Alfred

    Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)

    Turten, Robert Hugh

    Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

    Ramsden, Sir Eugene

    Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

    Leighton, Major B. E. P.

    Rankin, Robert

    Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

    Levy, Thomas

    Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

    Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

    Lewis, Oswald

    Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

    Waterhouse, Captain Charles

    Liddall, Walter S.

    Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)

    Watt, Captain George Steven H.

    Lindsay, Noel Ker

    Reid, William Allan (Derby)

    Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

    Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick

    Renwick, Major Gustav A.

    Wills, Wilfrid D.

    Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

    Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.

    Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

    Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)

    Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)

    Wise, Alfred R.

    Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

    Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)

    Womersley, Walter James

    Mabane, William

    Ropner, Colonel L.

    Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

    MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)

    Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

    Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

    MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

    Ross, Ronald D.

    McConnell, Sir Joseph

    Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

    McCorquodale, M. S.

    Rothschild, James A. de

    Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain

    Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

    Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.

    Austin Hudson.

    Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

    Runge, Norah Cecil

    NOES.

    Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

    Grundy, Thomas W.

    McGovern, John

    Attlee, Clement Richard

    Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

    Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)

    Banfield, John William

    Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

    Maxton, James

    Batey, Joseph

    Hirst, George Henry

    Milner, Major James

    Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

    Jenkins, Sir William

    Parkinson, John Allen

    Buchanan, George

    John, William

    Price, Gabriel

    Cape, Thomas

    Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

    Thorne, William James

    Cocks, Frederick Seymour

    Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

    Tinker, John Joseph

    Cripps, Sir Stafford

    Kirkwood, David

    Williams, David (Swansea, East)

    Daggar, George

    Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

    Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

    Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

    Lawson, John James

    Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

    Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

    Logan, David Gilbert

    Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

    Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

    Lunn, William

    Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)

    McEntee, Valentine L.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

    Mr. Groves and Mr. Duncan Graham.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I beg to move, in page 1, line 12, to leave out the words "if it is," and to insert instead thereof the words "and it is also."
    This is a purely consequential Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    10.3 p.m.
    Sir B. PETO: I beg to move, in page 1, line 15, to leave out from the word "which," to the first word "the" in line 17.
    I hope to be able in connection with this Amendment to bring to the notice of the Committee a question which will

    1297
    not arouse controversy. Judging from the Amendments which have been discussed to-day it is difficult to introduce any subject which is not one of controversy. Here is a question which is purely one of advantage and clarity. The words that I propose to omit are:
    "either the annual amount of the recoverable rent on the appointed day or."
    We have in the words in the Bill a double test of value, either the recoverable amount of rent or the rateable value. That introduces a question of doubt, and there may be disputes which may be costly to settle in the courts of law. The Committee will observe that in Clause 2 we have the words:
    "shall not apply to any dwelling-house of which the rateable value on the appointed day did not exceed."
    There you have the simple definition of rateable value only. The purpose of the Amendment is to bring Clauses 1 and 2 into agreement, to have one measure of value by which it will be simple to settle the debateable question as to whether a house is to be decontrolled or not. If the Amendment is accepted, it will only be necessary to refer to the rate book to find out at what value the house is rated. If it is rated in the City of London below £45 or in Scotland below £45, or elsewhere below £35, the matter is settled, and there will be no subject of dispute. But if you have two standards of value, the amount of the recoverable rent on the day appointed or the rateable value, there is clearly a subject for argument. I am asking the Solicitor-General to tell me why these two different values are introduced. There must be a reason, and probably a very good reason, which may be good enough to satisfy me.
    The Amendment is put forward by the Austioneers and Estate Agents Institute of Great Britain. I do not pretend to have any special knowledge of these matters, but I believe that the auctioneers and estate agents know something of the simplification of the law under which they act, and are not people who have any interest in having anything in the nature of difficulties as to the interpretation of an Act. They point out that some dwellings are rented at rents inclusive of rates and that others are rented at rates exclusive of rates, and that you may have two buildings of identical accommodation and identical value which, under this double definition, might in one case be
    1298
    controlled and in the other case decontrolled. That is clearly undesirable, and that is the point I desire to put to the Solicitor-General. Perhaps he will tell us why it is necessary to have this double, standard of ascertained value of these properties?
    10.9 p.m.
    The SOLICITOR-GENERAL: I am glad to respond to the request of the hon. Member. He has said that the object of the Amendment is to produce greater clarity. Let me tell him at once what the point is. In 99 cases out of 100 the rateable value is, in fact, lower than the rent, and, as he says, if either is below the figure the house remains under the Bill. But he asks, why have two standards? The answer is that a great many of the houses which still remain included are the type of a dwelling-house which is a dwelling-house within a dwelling-house, two rooms, or one room, out of seven or eight, one floor out of three or four floors, which have never been separately assessed. If we do not give the alternative measure of rent as distinct from rateable value, landlords and tenants will have to go through the process which is open to them under Section 12 of the principal Act, to go to the court and incur the expense of getting an apportion-merit.
    We do not want to cause that sort of unnecessary trouble and expense, and we give the alternative measure, if either the rent or the rateable value is below the figure, the house remains within the Bill. One or other of these two things is readily ascertainable without the trouble of going to the court. Incidentally, it follows a precedent which has already been applied for years under existing Acts. The hon. Member points out that in Clause 2 we refer only to rateable value. The reason for that is that we make the rateable value the measure, and the only measure, for the type of house in Clause 3, because it is the compounding limit for rates; that is why in Clause 3 rateable value only is mentioned.
    Sir B. PETO: I am completely satisfied with the explanation of the Solicitor-General. My only object in putting down the Amendment was that it was represented to me that it would simplify procedure, but the hon. and learned Member

    1299
    has satisfied me that it would not have that effect, and I hope it will satisfy also those interests outside who are specially concerned in this matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Since we have given the alternative of rent or rates, would it not be advisable to leave rates out altogether and increase the amount of rent which will keep houses out of control?
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    10.12 p.m.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I beg to move, in page 1, line 20, to leave out the word "forty-five" and to insert instead thereof the word "seventy."
    It is obvious that if the Bill becomes law, as it now stands, the rateable value or the recoverable rent of houses to be controlled is one of the most important provisions in the Bill. Let me explain why it is that we raise the issue of the amount of recoverable rent or rateable value. Under this Clause houses will be controlled if they do not exceed a maximum of £45 in the London area, £45 in Scotland, and £35 elsewhere. Under this Amendment I am only entitled to deal with the case of London, that is to say, I am proposing to substitute £70 in the case of London instead of £45. I have an Amendment later, which I hope will be called, under which I shall be able to deal with the problem outside the Metropolis in a much more familiar way. It will be noticed that £35 covers everywhere outside London and Scotland, and of course I am more familiar with everywhere else than with London or Scotland. The Amendment as stated raises a very important point. The Minister on Second Reading stated, as to Class "B" houses:
    "I think we must recognise that the pace of decontrol started by the Act of 1923, with gradual decontrol, is just about right. We cannot afford to go any faster and we need not go any slower."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th December, 1932; col. 53, Vol. 273.]
    There is a difference of opinion on that issue. Even if our Amendment were accepted and a sum of £70 were inserted instead of £45, the house to which our Amendment refers would still be subject to gradual decontrol under the provisions of the 1923 Act. What we are proposing to do is to bring a larger number of Class "B" houses within this category
    1300
    now confined to a £45 rateable value. It is not generally understood, whatever may be the case in London—though I do not think that London differs from other large cities in this respect—that working-class families have been compelled to remove into the larger houses because they could not secure the tenancy of smaller ones. We have the anomaly that where the income of a family might be very low and the size of the family very large, that that family has been forced to tenant some of these old vacant houses at high rents because they could not secure the tenancies of smaller ones with lower rents. We want to include these larger houses because they have now become definitely, in some quarters of our large cities, working-class houses, whereas formerly they were the houses of middle-class folk. There is indeed a case to be made out for raising the figure as we suggest.
    It is not generally understood what a change has taken place in domestic economy in respect of rent. Before the War it was always understood that the rent should not absorb more than one-eighth of the family income. I believe it is true to say that now the average amount absorbed for rent out of the income of a working-class family is one-fifth of the income. In some cases of these large old houses the rent may absorb as much as 33 to 50 per cent. of the tenant's wages. We ought, therefore, to increase the recoverable rent mentioned in the Bill, particularly in the Metropolis, in order to prevent the exploitation of poorer folk who are being forced to tenant these large houses. A goodly number of working people, especially those employed in the markets of our great cities, cannot go out to live on the new suburban estates. They have to live near their place of employment. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) knows that as well as I do. Therefore you have in the large cities terraces and streets of very large houses that were once occupied by fairly rich people who have gone to reside in the countryside, and these old houses have now become more or less slums. But whether they are slums or not, the rents remain high. In fact, the rents in some cases are very high and consequently we want to insert this increased sum which would bring them into control once again.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I do not want to do anything to curtail the hon. Gentleman's argument. I realise that this is a very important subject, but it seems to me that the argument which he is now directing quite correctly towards the Metropolis, is one which obviously must be repeated to some extent on the next two Amendments. I only want to safeguard the position of the Chair. If it is the wish of the Committee we could have a general discussion of the whole principle on this Amendment, on the understanding that Divisions were taken on the remaining Amendments, which deal with the same question. I am in the hands of the Committee but I feel that, unless some such course is taken, we may be in the difficulty that hon. Members speaking on subsequent Amendments will be repeating arguments which have already been used.
    Mr. KNIGHT: As some of my hon. Friends and I are responsible for an Amendment to insert the larger figure of £100, which I understand is not going to be called, in our view it would be an advantage to have a general discussion on the lines suggested.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I think your suggestion, Captain Bourne, would be helpful to the Committee, and would enable us to have a business-like discussion. I would only suggest that the discussion might be extended so as to include the Amendments dealing with (a), (b) and (c) as all three involve the same principle.
    Mr. N. MACLEAN: Are there not some points in which the Class "C" houses differ entirely from the Class "A" and Class "B" houses?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The hon. Member has misunderstood me. I am not referring to Classes "A," "B" and "C" houses, but to paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of the Sub-section.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: My feeling is that it may be convenient to take a general discussion covering all the houses included in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) on this first Amendment, on the understanding, of course, that it is open to hon. Members to divide on the question of the £45 in London and the £45 in Scotland, and the £35 elsewhere, if they so desire. With regard to the point
    1302
    raised by the hon. and learned Member for South Nottingham (Mr. Knight), his Amendment in any case would be covered by this Amendment, but it is open for him to argue that the larger figure should be inserted.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: I am much obliged, Captain Bourne, for your suggestion, and I am pleased that the Committee appear to have taken the gentle hints which I made on several occasions in my remarks that it would be better to deal with the whole problem on this Amendment. That I now propose to do If we take the rents which apply to these figures, I am told that a weekly rent of 17s. 6d. would be equivalent to the £45 figure in London, and about 13s. 6d. would be the equivalent in the provinces. The rents paid by working-class folks for some of these larger houses are much higher than that.
    Let me deal with part of the country with which I am familiar. It has been argued to-day that we ought to decontrol houses as quickly as we can. The proposals of the Minister would, of course, decontrol them sooner than our Amendment. That argument is put because, forsooth, we are told, property is in a bad way, and we ought to give help to property-owners in order to bring about the free play of supply and demand once again. In Manchester it seems that some property-owners are not doing badly at all. I have here a copy of a report which has some bearing on this point. I have a report of the firm of Messrs C. W. Provis & Sons, one of the largest firms of auctioneers and property dealers in Manchester, and it has astonished me to find that in spite of all this depression, in spite of the scarcity of cottage property, this firm has informed the public that in 1931 it realised on sales of property £279,000, and in 1932, £289,000, an increase of £10,000 in one year, and that in spite of the trade depression. Consequently, we ought to start right away with this in our minds, that property owners and estate agents are not doing badly, in spite of the depression in other spheres. No man in his senses would put all property owners in the same category. The vast majority of the people of this country, property owners and employers, do the right thing, but we have to legislate in these matters against the man who takes undue advan-

    1303
    tage of his fellows, and there are property owners who do that.
    I will read a case that has been brought to my notice in a very admirable report issued by the Manchester and Salford Housing Council. This deals with one of the large houses that we want to cover in our Amendment, a house in Red Bank. It is a very strange thing about slumdom, that the more slummy they are the more beautiful are the names. They are either Paradise Avenue, or Angel Meadow, or something like that. The paragraph reads:
    "One house furnishes an extraordinary example. A firm of estate agents let it to a man not resident in the district, who sub-lets it to another man who does not live there himself but in turn sub-lets it to the actual occupier for £1; the occupier again sub-lets part of the house to another family for 8s. The rent of a neighbouring house in better condition and with more habitable rooms is 8s. 9d."
    As I said, this House of Commons is never called upon the legislate in respect to the good employer or the good landlord. What we have to do in this House is to deal with the man who does that sort of thing to his tenants, and that is one of the objects of the Amendment. We want to bring to the notice of the Minister this new problem in connection with housing. I have streets in my mind in the City of Manchester—there will be half a dozen of them, I should imagine, within a mile of the centre of the City—that were the best houses probably in the city 50 years ago. They are to-day rented at £1 or 25s., and I have instances here where the rent paid by the occupier of one of those houses may be 25s. a week, and he gains by sub-letting separate rooms as much as £10 a week on the house. Therefore, I think our case is a good one indeed. Now let me say a word or two further about Manchester, just to show what can happen there. This is in another district, Chorlton-on-Medlock:
    "One or two streets in this district contain larger and, at one time, better class houses."
    These are now let off in furnished and unfurnished rooms. I will give one case of a house with six rooms. The landlord receives 14s. 6d. rent. The house is let off as follows: one room, rent 9s., a man, wife and one child; one room, rent 9s., a man, wife and two children; one room,
    1304
    rent 6s., one woman; one room, rent 6s., one woman and her granddaughter; one room, rent 5s., one woman; one room, rent 5s., another woman. The tenant of the house draws 40s. a week in rents. We want to be certain that this sort of thing shall be stopped not only in London or Scotland, but throughout the country. The purpose of my Amendment is to deal with that problem. I am not without sympathy with the argument that the man who builds a house ought to have a fair return on his property, but I have come across cases like this.
    I know a street in Manchester where the pre-War rent of a house was 11s. 6d. and the rent now is 19s. 6d. That house is still controlled, but the house next door is decontrolled and the rent is 25s. Unless this Amendment is carried, the house which is now let at 19s. 6d. will at once he 25s. Hon. Members know cases like that in every part of the country. I also know a house the rent of which was 8s. 6d. prior to the War. There has not been an ounce of paint put on it and no decorations or repairs done to it by the owner and the rent is now 23a. 6d. We are afraid, therefore, that unless we extend the amount of the rateable value or the recoverable rent by our Amendment we shall not be able to include houses like that within this category. There is nothing better for the purposes of an argument like this than to take actual cases based upon facts which are sent to Members of Parliament. Let me give a case which was brought to my notice the other day. A man wrote that he had a son who lives in Blackpool in a decontrolled house, the rent of which is 16s. a week, and with rates £1 0s. 6d. The controlled houses in the same street belonging to the same owner are 8s. 9d. exclusive of rates.
    I feel sure that unless the Minister accepts the Amendment those houses will all be let at the higher rent. Another case is of a man living in a decontrolled house paying 13s. 6d. clear. The controlled houses in the same block are 7s. 6d. a week clear. You do not require to be a revolutionary to talk about the plunder of the house owner against the tenant. As a matter of fact, this question has long ago left the category of house owners exploiting the working classes only. There are now house owners who exploit other house owners and members of the middle class who

    1305
    exploit the middle class tenant. There are cases coming to light that warrant me in saying that no matter what colour or politics the Government may be, we are entitled to call upon the Government of the day to put a stop to the plundering that is going on in connection with rents in this country. For these reasons I beg to move the Amendment, and I trust the Minister will be good enough to tell us why he has put in these specific figures and has not made the sums larger. I know that he will reply that they are based upon the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, but it is not always that Governments translate the reports of commissions and committees into law and not always that they do it with the exactness which they are adopting in this case. I should imagine that the right hon. Gentleman appreciates the political significance of keeping the figure too low here.
    10.36 p.m.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I rise to a point of Order. The hon. Member addressed a. good deal of his arguments to "C" class houses, and as to the limitations between the "C" and "B" class houses. If we could extend the scope of this Debate to include also Amendments under Clause 2 as to the limitation of "C" class houses, that might be a convenience, but I think we ought to be quite clear whether we are going to do that or not, because hitherto all that you have allowed us to do, in your discretion, Captain Bourne, is to discuss Amendments to Clause 1 as to the limitations between Class "A" and Class "B" houses.
    Mr. DAVIES: I hope I did not deal with Class "C" houses. If I did, I acted inadvertently in thus slipping outside the scope of this Clause. May I respectfully ask the right hon. Gentleman that we should confine ourselves on Clause 1 to Class "A" and Class "B" houses, because if we deal with Class "C" houses as well we shall land ourselves in a difficulty.
    Sir H. YOUNG: I entirely agree with the hon. Member, but I thought it was as well that we should be clear that the Debate on this Amendment was not to range over the distinction between Class "B" and Class "C" houses.
    The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I think it would be better to confine the discussion to the Clause. I must admit that I have found it a little difficult to follow all the intricacies of this subject.
    10.38 p.m.
    Mr. JANNER: I rise to support the Amendment, and though I do not want to repeat unnecessarily some of the arguments that were used in respect of previous Amendments, I think it is important that we should realise exactly what the Bill proposes to do. Before this Bill becomes an Act houses of a rateable value of £105 in London will remain controlled. In September of this year, if this Bill is passed, it is intended that houses of a rateable value of £45, or of a recoverable rent of £45, should be the ones to be retained under control. A drop from £105 to £45 at one swoop sounds sufficiently drastic, and affects, as I have said before on other Amendments, 500,000 houses, occupied by somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,000,000 people. The position is even worse than appears on the face of it. If we take the recoverable rent as the basis, the "standard rent" of £105 meant a rent that you were entitled to increase by 15 per cent., by 25 per cent, and so on,
    Therefore, if you take the £45 basis, which the Act places as the limit to which decontrol shall in future apply, or above which limit houses shall become decontrolled forthwith, you are dealing with a house which is based on a standard rent of £30. So that you have dropped, not from £105 to £45, but from £105 to £30, and you are below one-third of the amount that was controlled before. To do that in one step is a very serious thing. You are dealing with people who belong to the professional classes in the so-called black-coated occupations, and you are also dealing with a large number of people belonging to the working class. It is perfectly true that the Minister of Health said that it does not matter because the rents will not be increased, but on the contrary will be decreased, and that when the houses are decontrolled everything will be perfectly happy and men will be able to obtain alternative accommodation without any difficulty. That is precisely what the right hon. Gentleman said was going to be the effect of it.
    If that is to be the effect of it, why not give it an opportunity of working

    1307
    down by a more gradual process? I would go much further than hon. Members on the Opposition Benches, and would want a much higher standard. They put it at £70, and that is a drop from £105 to something between £45 and £50. My contention is that theirs is not by any means an unreasonable request. We do not know how many of the 500,000 houses which are still uncontrolled come within that category. It would have been helpful if we had known how many of them could be fitted into the compartments of rateable value ranging between £105 and the £45 suggested. We do not know that, and we cannot afford to take any risks in this matter. It is a very serious thing to take a risk of this nature, because no one knows what is going to happen to those people. I have illustrations here, which have not been contradicted, which I quote from the "Star" newspaper, and in which those who are affected by the provisions of this Bill have written letters to Mr. Rider stating particulars of their own cases. He has not received any letters from people who have suggested for a moment that their rents will be decreased after decontrol. I would like to mention one or two of these illustrations, because they clearly show the fear that exists in the minds of the people concerned.
    A civil servant says, "I have been badly hit, for one in my position, by the economy and other measures of the Government. I have suffered by repeated falls in pension and by the Conversion of the 5 per cent. War Loan. All my pension, security and other savings having been invested in the War Loan, which the Government were constantly urging people, especially civil servants to purchase. I have lived in this house since 1912. The rent was formely £43 and the rateable value £36. Now the rent is £60 and the house is rated at This is one of the houses which would come out of the sphere of control at the present time. If the Bill passes, I shall be obliged to leave the neighbourhood altogether." That man is a civil servant and clearly is not incapable of working these things out for himself, and, if he feels satisfied that his rent is going down, he would not complain in such a manner as would bring the complaint to the notice of everybody and anybody. He
    1308
    says that, if the Bill passes, he fears he will have to leave his house.
    Assuming that there are only 100,000 such cases among the 500,000—my own opinion is that more probably there will be 499,000—can we at this stage afford to put these people in jeopardy, to put them in such a plight that they will not be able to help themselves, in such a position that they will still have to meet their ordinary commitments, and provide themselves with food and clothing, while, on the top of all that, when their income has been considerably reduced, they will have to find an additional rent. I have another case, that of a private tutor, who has rented a house since 1911. The rent was then £58, and the rateable value £52. The rent was increased under the Act to £77, and, if the house were decontrolled, it would be put up to over £100.
    "There is not the slightest chance of my income going up,"
    says this man. [An HON. MEMBER: "What are the rates?"] The house is certainly rated at a higher figure to-day; it would come within the provisions of the Clause to which we are referring. I am giving facts which have been published, and which have not been denied by anyone. As I have said, the house was rated at £52. If the hon. Member thinks that that was the actual amount of the rates, I would suggest that he should look up the handbook on these matters, when he will find that the rates are slightly lower than the rateable value in most cases. Anyhow, we will assume that in this case they are lower.
    I have given two typical illustrations of what may happen, and I believe, and my hon. Friends on these benches believe, that it is our duty to protect people from being placed in a position of this sort if we can possibly do so. The same thing applies in the provinces, and I assume that it also applies in Scotland. We ask that, if there is to be decontrol, at least the axe should fall slowly, that people should have the option of moving out of their house if they choose, so that the house may become decontrolled by being empty, and that at least they should be given some little time by retaining control of houses up to a rateable value of £70.
    10.48 p.m.
    Mr. MICHAEL BEAUMONT: I oppose this Amendment, and have little doubt that the Minister will resist it. I should

    1309
    have a great deal more sympathy with it if the arguments and complaints as to hardship to which we have listened were not so entirely one-sided. Throughout the whole of the arguments to which I have listened in the Debate, from hon. Members opposite and from hon. Members below the Gangway, there is the same old fallacy that, because a man is a tenant, he is some form of angel who can do no sin, while, if a man is a landlord, he must be an evil scoundrel. That is the underlying basis of the whole of their speeches. The hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies), whose speech was the real cause of my rising, said one thing with which I am disposed to agree. He said that the conditions of rent are such that any Government might be asked to intervene in certain conditions to deal with the matter. I agree, and that applies just as much to deterioration of property by bad statutory tenants as it does to the exactions of bad landlords.
    In dealing with this matter of the decontrol of Class "B" houses, it is essential to see on which side the greatest hardship lies. We heard certain cases put forward by the hon. Member for Westhoughton. He gave us a number of cases in which the rooms were let out at different rents, but he did not explain to us how this Amendment was going to affect those cases. If the houses are now under control, those rents are illegal and should be dealt with; if they are not under control, this Amendment will not affect them in any way. Therefore, the cases he put forward are entirely irrelevant to the issue. He gave us the further case of two houses, one of which was controlled and let at a rent of 8s. 9d. and the other was decontrolled and let at £1 0s. 6d. He brought forward no evidence to show which was the just and fair rent. I contend it is entirely fanciful to assume that the 8s. 9d. rent is just as opposed to the £1 0s. 6d. rent.
    What this Committee has to do in dealing with this particular Bill is not to bring forward partisan Amendments biased in favour of one class or the other, but to try and strike the happy medium of justice or injustice—call it what you will—between landlord and tenant. Whatever we do there is going to be hardship. The object of this Bill, of this Clause and, I hope, of this
    1310
    Amendment is to reduce that hardship on both sides. If that be the intention of the Amendment, it signally fails in that respect. It is, in fact, asking for a new class of houses to be created, a class of "A2" or "B1" houses, a special class of houses unknown to previous Acts or to any of the committees which have discussed the subject. It is asking, in effect, that the class of decontrolled houses should be cut in two. There has been no argument put forward for that course.
    There are many people, both landlords and tenants, who are dissatisfied with the categories into which controlled houses have fallen in the past. There are many border-line cases in which people have wished to create special classes of houses for rent control purposes for their own benefit. Those demands have always been refused. In the whole history of rent restriction those three classes, "A," "B" and "C," have been adopted, and on the whole that division has worked well. There is no reason to assume it will not work well in the future. The report of the Marley Committee, on which this Bill is based, has shown that the time has now arrived when Class "A" houses can be freed from control without hardship, and that there are enough houses to enable the rents to adjust themselves without any form of profiteering resulting from a shortage of houses. The decontrol of Class "B" houses has been going on very satisfactorily; it is not being changed by this Measure and will continue perfectly satisfactorily.
    There is no case whatever for putting in a new class of house at £70 or £80 to cut across the whole principle of the classification of houses under the Rent Restriction Acts of the past. In fact the hardship is very largely manufactured. There are a great many people who know they have been paying unduly low rents and are frightened that they are going to be made to pay proper rents. I do not blame them. I have every sympathy with them, but I do not think the House should act upon their agitation. For these reasons I contend that the Amendment is entirely unnecessary. An alteration of the classification of houses would be a very serious matter. It would disorganise the whole aspect of the Rent Restriction Acts. It would throw out of gear the whole basis on

    1311
    which we have worked in the past, and nothing but a very strong case, far stronger than has been made out tonight, would justify such a very considerable departure from the whole principle on which the Acts have been based as would be involved in the acceptance of the Amendment. I do not pretend to have any knowledge of Scotland but, as far as England is concerned, there is no case for the Amendment or for a departure from the principle of the Bill. I hope the Government will, as I have no doubt they will, say they cannot see their way to accept the Amendment.
    10.58 p.m.
    Mr. KNIGHT: I shall not have time to advance the reasons that I desire to put before the Committee, but I wish to inform the hon. Member that the opponents of the Clause are not moved by the feelings that he attributes to them. We realise that there are contesting claims and we desire to weigh them with sympathy, but on cool consideration of the whole matter we think there are reasons why the Government should hesitate to proceed with any proposals in regard to decontrol. Our view is that there are changes in the economic situation which are reflected in the financial circumstances of many citizens of such a character that the Government should hesitate before they proceed with these proposals. There are other matters in the Bill which we think meet the national necessities, but so far as decontrol is concerned, we desire to place before them views which we hope will persuade them not to continue with these proposals in the present emergency. I took the occasion on the Second Reading to make some submissions to the House as to the consequences which I feared would follow from the pursuit of these proposals. The result has been that I have received in confidence very many communications from householders in all parts of the country showing how they will be affected by these proposals, and it was because of this circumstance that I desired on this occasion to go into these particulars.
    It being Eleven of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
  Resolved,
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the royal borough of Kingston-upon-Thames, which was presented on the 23rd day of March, 1933, be approved.—[Mr. Hacking.]
  Resolved,
  "That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending section one of that Act to the borough of Barnes, which was presented on the 23rd day of 'March, 1933, he approved.—[Mr. Hacking.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

  FRANCE (BRITISH IMPORTS).
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Captain Margesson.]
  11.2 p.m.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: I desire to raise the question of the discriminatory surtax which exists in France against British imports into that country. In doing so, it is not my intention or desire in any way to make any criticism of the President of the Board of Trade, or of his very able colleague my hon. and gallant Friend who has done all or nearly all that can possibly be done to make representations to France in regard to this very important matter. The House will know that we have no formal commercial treaty with France, but our trade with that country has been regulated in accordance with what is popularly known as the most-favoured-nation treatment. As far as France is concerned, the most-favoured-nation treatment has statutory authority by decree of the French Legislature. When we departed from the Gold Standard the French Government promptly passed a decree on the 12th November, 1931, whereby it imposed a 15 per cent. surtax upon British imports into France. It was not solely discriminatory against this country inasmuch as it also applied to other countries which were not upon the Gold Standard.

  1313
  The first point is that we adopted no comparable measure when France depreciated her currency. She did not do it under the accumulative effect of stresses such as forced us to leave the Gold Standard. She did it as a matter of deliberate and carefully devised policy which depreciated her currency, as we know, to about one-fifth of its previous value. When that took place we suffered a most severe and devastating competition from French exports to this country. Although at that time we had in the Safeguarding of Industries Act machinery by which we could have prevented that very severe competition we did not make use of it. We took the view that the most-favoured-nation treatment involved our not imposing anything in the nature of a selective duty against French exports to this country. Indeed, we held that view so strongly that in cases in which, on account of depreciated currencies, we felt it necessary to impose surtax or specific ditties against imports from those countries we made new treaties, as in the case of Austria and Czechoslovakia, in which treaties we took the specific power to impose duties of that kind. So that it is not unfair to say that in proposing a specific surtax of 15 per cent. on British manufactured goods the Government of France were at least treating us ungraciously. We were not the only nation against which the 15 per cent. surtax was made to operate.
  I want to remind the House of what followed in the case of two other countries against which France also levied a 15 per cent. surtax. She did so in the case of Portugal, but Portugal was not slow to adopt retaliatory measures. She retaliated by a specific duty against French imports into Portugal, and the result was that the French Government immediately dropped the 15 per cent. surtax against Portuguese exports to France. Because Sweden adopted the sterling standard, France imposed a 15 per cent. surtax upon Swedish goods entering France. Negotiation took place between Sweden and France. One can only surmise what that consisted of, but the result is clear. Quite recently that surtax against Swedish goods was raised by the French Government, because no doubt the Swedish Government threatened retaliatory measures of the same kind.
  The present position is this, that we export mainly manufactured goods to
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  France. Those goods bear their ordinary duty on entry into France, which in most cases is about 6 per cent., but on the top of that they bear what imports from countries that compete with us do not bear, namely, 15 per cent., and that 15 per cent. is imposed not only upon the prime cost of the article but also upon the freight, transport and insurance of the article, so that when it reaches the French market it is burdened with a discriminatory tariff which effectively prevents us from competing with other countries, and especially with Germany. Let me give an example, of which my hon. Friend is well aware, because he has been in communication with me about it, which will bring quite clearly to the House how destructive to British trade the surtax is. France is an exporter of textiles, and in particular of lace, but France is not a manufacturer of lace machinery. Her lace machinery she imports from Great Britain and Germany. We are, therefore, in direct competition with Germany in supplying the French lace manufacturers with the machinery that enables them to export.
  Our lace machines have to bear on entry into France the 6 per cent. ad valorem import duty plus 15 per cent. on account of the surtax, whereas the German machinery has no such 15 per cent. tax to bear. Here is how it worked out in a particular contract that was effected by a very important Nottingham firm only a few weeks ago. The total duty on the German machine which was in direct competition with the Nottingham machine was 31,755 francs, or about £365, at 87 francs to the pound. The total duty on the identical British machine was 56,216 francs, or £646 3s. 2d., so that there was a discriminatory tariff, call it a preference if you like in favour of the German manufacturer of £281 3s. 2d. The margins in manufactures are so narrow and the skill and capacity so equal that a burden of that character effectually destroys the market, and it is true that at the present time we are losing contracts every week with France owing to this discriminatory tariff, which is operating directly against this country. At the present rate it means that whereas the discriminatory tariff is 15 per cent. of the ad valorem duty, the actual ariff amounts to 77 per cent, of the total tariff which is paid upon goods entering the country.

  1315
  This matter, I know, has not been overlooked by the Board of Trade. I have had assurances from my hon. and gallant Friend that he has made representations quite recently to the French Minister of Finance when he was in this ccountry. But it has not been overlooked in France either. In the great textile district of Cambrai the matter has been taken up by the French Chamber of Commerce recently, and the Cambrai Chamber of Commerce instructed their president to make strong representations to the French Minister of the Interior, the Minister of Commerce, on the subject. One would like to know what steps the Board of Trade are taking at the present moment. They have protested, and have done so for some time, but as far as one can make out the protests have not had any great effect. Representations, I understand, were made to the French Finance Minister on his recent visit to this country. Can my hon. and gallant Friend tell us the nature of those representations, and what kind of response was made by the Finance Minister?
  We are not powerless now as we were a few years ago. We enjoy a tariff system, and France is in a very vulnerable position. She exports to this country £19,000,000 per annum of goods which are all or nearly all goods we can dispense with, goods upon which, if we were to impose a duty, very few people in this country would suffer; sumptuary goods such as wines, and textiles and fine silks and laces, upon which we could with impunity, and with the support of public opinion, impose a tariff. We have an extremely valuable negotiating weapon. We can retaliate, and in my submission we ought to retaliate unless we get some redress. We have still another method. I understand that the French Government sent their representative over here a week ago for the purpose of negotiating a new commercial treaty with this country. That gives us our opportunity, and in my submission we ought to make it perfectly plain that we will not enter into a new commercial treaty until this tariff, which represents a preference in favour of Germany, and is discriminatory against us, is first removed. That should be a condition precedent to our entering into any
  1316
  negotiations with the French Government. I hope I have made it plain that the needs of our trade and commerce deserve prompt, decisive and vigorous measures in this matter; that we have machinery at our disposal, and that if we show that we are prepared to use it we shall find that we shall be able to dispose of the situation in the same way as other countries who have had the courage of their convictions and have been prepared to act.
  11.15 p.m.
  Mr. LINDSAY: I desire only to say a few words in support of what my hon. and learned Friend has said, but from a slightly different point of view. I happen to represent a Division which contains a very large smelting works, one of the largest in the world. That, also, has been very seriously hit by the operation of this taxation—not so much by the 15 per cent. duty as by the increase in the ordinary duty, which formerly stood at 2 per cent., and was increased to 4 per cent. At Vile same time, the duties were also increased against imports from Belgium, Sweden and Italy. The duty has been lowered to its old level, as against those countries, Sweden, Italy and Belgium, but it still stands at the new level of 4 per cent. against this country. In this particular industry, which creates a large amount of employment and is very largely dependent upon the French market, very serious loss has been caused by this action of the French Government, which action has in fact been discriminatory against this country. I thoroughly support what my hon. and learned Friend has said. We have now in our hands a very strong instrument of persuasion which ought to be used, and I would urge the Government, when dealing with the question of the 15 per cent. surtax, not to forget the increase which has been made in the ordinary import duty.
  11.17 p.m.
  Lieut.-Colonel J. COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) for raising this question. Although the hour is late and the time short, I am enabled to say a few words with regard to this taxation in France. Before I answer my hon. and learned Friend's questions I would like to run

  1317
  over the position briefly from the start. On 1st August, 1931, the French Government passed a decree imposing a surtax with the stated object of countervailing exchange differences, and, as my hon. and learned Friend mentioned, on 12th November in the same year a, surtax of 15 per cent. ad valorem was applied to imports of the United Kingdom. Representations were addressed at once to the French Government against this discrimination, but they refused to withdraw the surtax on the ground that it was simply a means of counterbalancing the indirect export bounty resulting from the depreciation of British currency, and did not in their opinion involve any breach of most-favoured nation rights.
  Conversations with the French Government were continued, and the French Government expressed themselves willing to negotiate on the whole question of duties. But the British Government maintained that their right to most-favoured-nation treatment entitled us to exemption from the surtax. Exemption from the surtax was given for certain goods which are held to have a world price, for example wheat. After very strong representations had been made to the French Government at that time coal was added to the list of exempted goods. My hon. and learned Friend will remember that that was announced in the House at the time. But that is not all our case by any means. Yet it should be noted that that arrangement at any rate assisted a, large proportion of our imports into France. In 1931 coal represented 38 per cent. of our imports into France, and in 1932 not less than 42 per cent. So that the strong representations to the French Government did result in some benefit. On 13th July last, following the Lausanne Conference, an Anglo-French declaration was made that, pending negotiations for a commercial treaty, the two countries would avoid any action in the nature of discrimination by the one against the other. As it is important, I quote the actual words of Article IV of the Declaration:
  "Pending the negotiation at a later date of a new commercial treaty between the two countries, they will avoid any action in the nature of discrimination by the one country against the interests of the other."
  Immediately afterwards it was suggested to the French Government that it, would be most welcome to His Majesty's Gov-
  1318
  ernment if that could be followed by the immediate withdraw al of the 15 per cent. surtax. To this approach the French response was that they were not prepared to remove the surtax except as the result of a commercial agreement between the two countries, designed—and I use this phrase deliberately and it is the phrase which was used then—"to restore the balance in economic relationship between them." Let me briefly recall the attitude taken by the two Governments upon the question at that time. There has been a, tacit understanding for more than 50 years now, while there was no actual provision to that effect, that, in fact, most favoured nation treatment was accorded on both sides in Anglo-French trade. We have without exception given most favoured nation treatment to French goods during all that period and up to the time of the application of this tax and the same has been the case on the other side. The imposition, therefore, of a surtax on United Kingdom goods on, the ground of sterling depreciation was a departure from longstanding practice. We claimed that no duty or charge should be levied on imports into France of United Kingdom goods which was not equally levied on the goods of other countries. The French defence has been that no discrimination is involved, since all countries with depreciated currencies are treated alike, the only exceptions being in cases where agreement has been come to since the depreciation took place.
  In point of fact the French have held the view that the surtax could only be removed as part of a commercial agreement, and hon. Members may be aware that the surtax has, in fact, been removed from Portuguese, Swedish and Finnish goods in exchange for concessions on French goods. His Majesty's Government maintain that the surtax is discriminatory and that they are entitled to its removal unconditionally. I trust that I have made the view of His Majesty's Government clear, but I hope that hon. Members will allow me to comment on the position rather more generally before concluding. I want also to refer to the interesting point which my hon. Friend the Member for South Bristol (Mr. Lindsay) raised later. Hon. Members will recollect that the French Government at an earlier date were ready to negotiate with us in order to bring

  1319
  about a commercial agreement between the two countries designed to restore the balance of economic relationships between them. Perhaps it is not generally appreciated that as a result of duties upon imports which it has been necessary to make in this country, a policy the necessity of which I need not elaborate, French trade with this country has in fact been greatly reduced. In 1911 imports from France were £42,000,000 and exports of United Kingdom goods to France were £24,000,000. In 1931 the position was that imports from France were £41,000,000 and exports to France £23,000,000, a substantial balance in favour of France. In 1932, however, imports from France fell to £19,000,000, a drop of more than 50 per cent., while United Kingdom exports to France fell only from £23,000,000 to £18,500,000. One can see there a natural anxiety on the part of the French to discuss an agreement which would preserve a certain balance.
  To that, the reply of His Majesty's Government is this—and I am glad to have the opportunity of stating it: We make it perfectly clear that we are not prepared to enter upon negotiations while the present discrimination is maintained against 'United Kingdom goods in France. It would be impossible for us to contemplate offering to the French Government a quid pro quo, in the shape of reductions of duty on French goods imported into this country which are part of the general tariff on all foreign goods, in return for the removal of the discriminatory tariffs now levied in France upon United Kingdom goods and which should, in our view, be removed as of right.
  My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade interviewed Monsieur Bonnet, the Finance Minister of the French Government, a few days ago—to be exact on the 18th March—and in that interview the question of a commercial agreement between the two countries was raised. My right hon. Friend took the opportunity to make it clear that we were not in fact prepared to enter upon general negotiations on the lines which the French Government would desire so long as the discrimination which had been mentioned existed. I think I should add that the discrimination not only takes the form stated by my hon.
  1320
  and learned Friend but, as the hon. Member for South Bristol has said, discrimination is also to be found in the case of the Import Tax which was raised from 2 per cent. to 4 per cent. in the case of semi-manufactured goods, and 6 per cent, in the case of fully manufactured goods, while the Belgian Government, by agreement with the French Government, came to an arrangement whereby the tax is only 2 per cent. in the case of Belgian goods. We therefore hold that there is discrimination in that case also as against United Kingdom goods.
  My hon. Friend has asked what immediate steps will be taken. As I said, an interview took place on the 18th March, when the case was clearly put to the French Finance Minister. It is only right that we should give the French Government reasonable time to reply to that interview, but I sincerely hope that in the interests of the friendly relationship which has existed for so long between the two countries, the French Government will see their way to meet the wishes of His Majesty's Government in this matter. My hon. Friend has also referred to Section 12 of the Import Duties Act, which empowers the Government to apply duties up to 100 per cent. in the event of discrimination. That is a type of reciprocity which should only be used as a last resort, but we are fully aware of our powers in that regard also.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: I am in full sympathy with this question, but will strong steps be taken with Canada in regard to the Exchange Dumping Duty there?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The hon. Gentleman no doubt knows the terms of the Section of the Ottawa Agreement under which it is the intention of the Canadian Government to remove that tax as soon as possible. His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom attach the greatest importance to that engagement.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes after Eleven o'Clock.