Commons Sitting of 6 March 1933

Preamble
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER(SHEFFIELD) BILL,
" to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the city of Sheffield," presented by Sir Hilton Young; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 66.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  INDIA.

    VICEROY (MOSLEM ADVISER).
    Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDEMANasked the Secretary of State for India whether he will consider the appointment of a Moslem adviser to the Viceroy?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare): The Governor-General already has a Moslem member of his Executive Council.

    CONCESSION PASSAGES.
    Commander MARSDENasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is now in a position to state the amount of expenditure incurred in concession passages between India and the United Kingdom for the 12 months ended 30th September last; and how much of the total amount was used for passages in ships flying the British flag?
    Sir S. HOARE: £405,739, of which £352,953 was used for passages in ships flying the British flag.
    Sir WILLIAM DAVISON: Can my right hon. Friend now say what reply has been received from our Ambassador in Rome to the inquiries made of him regarding the prohibition against Italian
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    officials travelling by British ships and the compelling of them to travel in Italian bottoms?
    Sir S. HOARE: That question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
    Mr. RHYS DAVIES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proportion is increasing in our favour or is against us?
    Sir S. HOARE: No, Sir, not without notice.
    Mr. HALES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that British steamship lines have now reduced their fares to the same level as those of Continental lines and thus removed the chief objection to travel by British ships?

    MEDICAL COUNCIL BILL.
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India what action the Government of India propose to take in response to the representations from the Indian Medical Association with regard to the exclusion of Indian medical licentiates from the provisions of the Medical Council Bill?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have not heard what action the Government of India propose to take. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the Indian Medical Council Bill has been referred to a Select Committee of the Legislative Assembly.

    LABOUR CONDITIONS.
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India whether he will state the nature of the legislative proposals of the Government of India to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Indian Labour relating to the control of deductions from the wages of Indian workers?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the Bill.

    CONSTITUTIONAL PROPOSALS.
    Mr. LEVYasked the Secretary of State for India when the Joint Committee on the Indian Constitution will be set up and when the Bill is likely to be introduced?
    Sir S. HOARE: I hope that Parliament will authorise the setting up of the Joint Select Committee before Easter. The

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    date on which a Bill can be introduced must depend on the work of the Committee.
    Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOXasked the Secretary of State for India what reply he has sent to the appeal sent to him on behalf of the 30,000,000 Moslems of the Punjab, the North-West Frontier Province, Kashmir, Sindh, and Beluchistan, setting forth their fears of Hindu domination in an all-India federation, and asking for a separate federation of these five northern units; and whether, in view of the representations contained in this appeal, he will say what further safeguards he proposes for minority communities in India?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have seen copies of a printed circular, distributed from an address at Cambridge, bearing the names of four gentlemen who claim to speak for 30,000,000 of their fellow Moslems. As I am in constant communication with many representative Moslems, it did not seem to me necessary to take any special action in connection with this letter. As regards the last part of the question, I must ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the Government's proposals.
    Mr. McENTEE (for Mr. DAVID GRENFELL)asked the Secretary of State fur India what steps the Government of India and His Majesty's Government have under consideration with a view to the unification of Ceylon with the future federal Government of India?
    Sir S. HOARE: No such steps are under consideration.
    Mr. LEWIS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the inhabitants of Ceylon have expressed any desire to come into the federation?
    Sir S. HOARE: That is a question which should be addressed to the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

    POLICE.
    Sir A. KNOXasked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the announcement of his decision to hand over the Indian police to responsible Ministers in the provinces, he will state what safeguards he proposes to ensure the future efficiency of this force?
    Sir S. HOARE: I must ask my hon. and gallant Friend to await the Government's proposals which are shortly to be published.
    Sir A. KNOX: Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether British police officers will be placed under a responsible Minister?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have just told my hon. and gallant Friend that he must await the Government's proposal.
    Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when they will publish these proposals?
    Sir S. HOARE: If my hon. Friend had listened to an answer I gave two minutes ago, he would have heard me say that I hope the Joint Select Committee will be set, up before Easter.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: But may I hope for a definite date?
    Sir S. HOARE: Certainly.

    MEERUT CONSPIRACY TRIAL (APPEALS).
    Colonel WEDGWOODasked the Secretary of State for India whether the appeal against the sentence imposed upon the Meerut prisoners has been lodged by them or on their behalf; and are they undergoing hard labour until the date of the hearing of the appeal?
    Sir S. HOARE: Two prisoners up to the present have actually filed appeals. I am informed that all the prisoners are being employed on light labour, which is of a merely nominal character, in order to facilitate the preparation of appeals.
    Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the Secretary of State for India when it is expected that the appeals in the Meerut conspiracy case will be beard by the high court at Allahabad; and whether he will take steps to see that the hearing of the appeals is expedited?
    Sir S. HOARE: The Government of India inform me that the High Court is not likely to be able to hear appeals in this case before the vacation, which covers May and June. The High Court is, however, being asked to fix as early a date as possible after the vacation.

    PROHIBITED MEETING, ALLAHABAD.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for India if he is aware of the action of the authorities at Allaha-

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    bad in prohibiting a commemoration meeting which was to have been presided over by Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru, one of the Round Table Conference delegates; is he aware that the meeting was being organised by non-Congressmen; and will he state the reason for prohibition?
    Sir S. HOARE: The meeting was prohibited because it was proposed to hold it in Parshotamdas Park within the civil lines where previous similar gatherings had caused obstruction and annoyance to persons lawfully employed. The organisers, who included several members of Congress were informed that there would be no objection to a meeting anywhere outside the civil lines.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that of the nine persons charged with the responsibility of organising the meeting there were only two who were members of the Congress and that the meeting had no connection whatsoever with Congress; and, as one of the Round Table delegates was to preside over the meeting, does the right hon. Gentleman think it was justifiable to stop it?
    Sir S. HOARE: I am not aware of the facts just stated by the hon. Member. The meeting was prohibited for one reason and for one reason only, namely, that at this particular place, in the centre of the civil lines, it would have led to obstruction and trouble. There was no reason why the meeting should not have been held outside the city.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: As Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru was a thoroughly capable and desirable delegate to the Round Table Conference, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether any such meeting presided over by him should have been prohibited in the special area referred to?
    Sir S. HOARE: Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru was one of the most useful and valued members of the conference, and we shall be glad to hear him make a speech at any time. In this case the prohibition had nothing to do with him, but simply with the place of meeting. The meeting was to be in the centre of the town, and it would have led to obstruction, and possibly to trouble, and that was the sole reason why it was prohibited.

    COLLECTIVE FINES, CHITTAGONG AND MIDNAPORE.
    Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the Secretary of State for India what is the total amount received in respect of collective fines imposed on Chittagong and certain Midnapore villages; and for what purpose the amount so received has been allocated?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have no later figure for the amount collected in the Chittagong area than that given in reply to the question asked by the hon. Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner) on the 13th February, but the latest reports received by me state that collection is proceeding slowly but steadily. In the Midnapore district fines amounting to Rs.4,720 were imposed between August and November of last year but I have no information as to the amount that has been collected. These fines would ordinarily be credited to the general revenue of the province, but there is power to award compensation from them to persons injured in person or property as the result of the unlawful acts leading to the imposition of the fine.
    Mr. JONES: Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider that the time has come to arrest the exaction of these fines from a community large numbers of whom are entirely innocent of any wrong doing at all?
    Sir S. HOARE: There is a very obvious way in which the process of the fines can be arrested, and that is for the civil population to help us to arrest the terrorists.
    Mr. JONES: Is there any reason to suppose that these innocent people have any more knowledge as to the whereabouts of the terrorists than the right hon. Gentleman's own officers?
    Sir S. HOARE: Yes, I am afraid that we do think that among the civil population there are certain people who do know a great deal about the terrorists.
    Mr. JONES: If the right hon. Gentleman knows who are concealing these offenders, why does he not deal with them?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have great faith in the Governor of the province, Sir John Anderson; his experience in these matters is unrivalled; and I am prepared to leave the operation of this process in his hands.

    CIVIL AVIATION.
    Mr. PRICEasked the Secretary of State for India what steps the Government of India propose to take for the purpose of encouraging the development of civil aviation in India?
    Sir S. HOARE: I would refer the hon. Member to the report on the Progress of Civil Aviation in India for 1931–32, of which I am placing a copy in the Library.

    BROADCASTING.
    Mr. PRICEasked the Secretary of State for India what is the number of licences at present in existence in India for wireless receiving sets; and what steps the Government of India propose to take with a view to the development of broadcasting in India and to the prohibition of piracy in connection with the broadcasting service?
    Sir S. HOARE: As regards the first part of the question I have no information. As regards the second part the Government of India, with a view to the prevention of piracy, have introduced in the Legislative Assembly a Bill prohibiting the possession without licence of wireless apparatus.

    TRADE COMMISSIONERSHIPS.
    Mr. PARKINSON (for Mr. DAVID ADAMS)asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in order to provide increased opportunities for Indian trade, the Government of India will consider making further appointments to trade commissionerships in Europe and elsewhere?
    Sir S. HOARE: I understand that for reasons of economy the Government of India do not propose at present to appoint any more trade commissioners.

    ASSISTED EMIGRATION SCHEME (REPATRIATIONS).
    Mr. PARKINSON (for Mr. D. ADAMS)asked the Secretary of State for India what is the total number of Indians who have been repatriated from the Union of South Africa during the year 1932; and whether they have been provided for under the assisted emigration scheme?
    Sir S. HOARE: The complete figures for 1932 are not yet available, but in the first eight months the number repatriated under the assisted emigration scheme was about 1,400.

    COTTON AND SUGAR-CANE.
    Mr. GORDON MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for India the nature of the inquiry now under consideration by the Government of India with regard to the cost of cultivation of cotton and sugar-cane and their rotation crops?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have no information.
    Mr. McENTEE (for Mr. D. GRENFELL)asked the Secretary of State for India what measures are now under consideration by the Government of India for increasing the consumption in Great Britain of long-staple Indian cotton, having regard to the Indo-British trade agreement concluded at the Ottawa Conference?
    Sir S. HOARE: I understand that the Indian Central Cotton Committee proposes to organise demonstration tests in Lancashire. I have no other information.

    BERMS.
    Mr. G. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the resolution passed by the Legislative Council of the Central Provinces in January of this year demanding the creation of Berar as a separate province with full financial and legislative authority; whether the matter is receiving the attention of the Government of India; and what action it is proposed to take?
    Sir S. HOARE: The question of the arrangements to be made in respect of Berar under a Federal Constitution is under consideration, and I am not in a position to make any statement on the matter.

    LAND MORTGAGE BANKS (LOANS).
    Mr. G. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for India what action the Government of India propose to take with a view to putting into effect the recommendation of the Central Banking Inquiry Committee for the establishment of joint stock land-mortgage banks to provide long-term loans?
    Sir S. HOARE: I have not yet received from the Government of India any recommendation on this subject.

    NAVAL SERVICE (INDIANS).
    Mr. McENTEE (for Mr. D. GRENFELL)asked the Secretary of State for

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    India whether His Majesty's Government, in their arrangements for the naval security of Indians coasts, Indian ports, and Indian sea-borne trade, will consider the advisability, in consultation with the Government of India, of admitting Indians to the Indian naval service?
    Sir S. HOARE: Indians are already admitted to the Royal Indian Marine.

    BURMA.
    Mr. EDWARD WILLIAMS (for Mr. GEORGE HALL)asked the Secretary of State for India whether the future of Burma will be dealt with in the White Paper to be issued before Easter; and whether His Majesty's Government have yet arrived at any decision on the separation or federation question as regards this province?
    Sir S. HOARE: The decision between separation from India and inclusion in the proposed Indian Federation still rests with the people of Burma, whose representatives in the Legislative Council have as yet given no clear indication of their choice between the two alternatives which alone are open. The White Paper on Indian Reforms will not therefore deal specifically with the ease of Burma.
    Mr. WILLIAMS (for Mr. HALL)asked the Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to convene another Burma Round Table Conference for the further consideration of the question of the separation of Burma from India; and, if so, when it is proposed that the Conference shall meet?
    Sir S. HOARE: No, Sir. His Majesty's Government are not of opinion that any useful purpose would be served by a Conference to discuss this question.

    PUNJAB LAND ALIENATION ACT.
    Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for India if he will give an assurance that the operations of the Punjab Land Alienation Act will not be extended to the Province of 'Delhi in view of the hardships which it entails?
    Sir S. HOARE: The matter is not one in which I should wish to interfere with the discretion of the authorities in India.
    Major MILNER: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this matter has been considered by the Government of India?
    Sir S. HOARE: I think I had better have notice of that question. I am not quite sure.

  TRADE AND COMMERCE.

    FILM INDUSTRY (INDIA).
    Mr. R. DAVIESasked the Secretary of State for India whether in view of the representations made to the Government of India for the removal of the import duty on raw cinema films in India, he will say what steps they propose to take for the encouragement of the Indian film industry?
    Sir S. HOARE: As a consequence of the Ottawa Agreement, the Indian import duty on United Kingdom raw films has been reduced to 15 per cent., that on other raw films remaining at 25 per cent. The Government of India have also abolished a Customs concession which was until recently accorded to films printed abroad from Indian negatives.
    Mr. DAVIES: Is it not true that, in spite of the Ottawa Agreements, there is a 15 per cent. customs duty against this country?
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member will see that in consequence of the Ottawa Agreements the duty has been reduced to 15 per cent.
    Mr. DAVIES: It is still the fact, therefore, that there is a 15 per cent. duty against us in India in spite of the Ottawa Agreements?
    Sir S. HOARE: The hon. Member really puts a wrong construction on my answer. My answer goes to show that the duty has been reduced, and that the British preference is greater now than it was before the Ottawa Agreements.

    BRITISH INDUSTRIES FAIR.
    McENTEEasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department if he can give the House any information as to the results of the British Industries Fair in London and Birmingham; the number of visitors to each section, buyers, and general public; the approximate value of orders placed, together with the figures of the particular industries represented; and the number of new industries or firms showing for the first time?
    Mr. SUTCLIFFEasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department the approximate amount of business transacted in the textile section of the British Industries Fair this year, and how this compares with the amount transacted last year?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): The results of the British Industries Fair have been most satisfactory. In the majority of trades business is reported to have been secured on a scale comparable with that of the 1932 Fair which was regarded as the most successful of the series.
    The total attendances of visitors at the London Section were:

    Overseas buyers

    …

    …

    9,742

    Home buyers

    …

    …

    126,033

    General public

    …

    …

    33,622

    The total attendances at the Birmingham Section were:

    Overseas and Home

    Trade Buyers

    …

    …

    100,773

    General Public

    …

    …

    11,855

    It has never been considered practicable to insist on a return from exhibitors of the value of all orders taken at the Fair, as such a picture would be misleading, since an important function of the Fair is to encourage inquiries which are followed up by subsequent orders, and I am informed that many exhibitors are particularly pleased with the new contacts made. I am satisfied that the business done in all sections has been on a scale that cannot fail to be of great benefit to the country. 412 firms exhibited in the London Section for the first time and 184 at Birmingham.
    Mr. McENTEE: Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say how the figures that he has just read out compare with the figures for the previous year?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The figures are not all strictly comparable, because certain administrative changes have been made this year with regard to entry which affected the number of home buyers. The numbers of foreign buyers were practically the same. The number of home buyers showed a decrease, for the reason I have mentioned; but the general opinion is that the volume of buying has not been affected by these administrative changes.
    Mr. HANNON: So far as the exhibition of heavy trades at the Birmingham
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    Fair is concerned, is there not universal satisfaction at the increase of foreign buyers, and the prospect of orders to come, on the part of the exhibitors there?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Yes, Sir, that has been expressed.
    Sir ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL: Is my hon. and gallant Friend satisfied that the charge of an entrance fee of 2s. has not done any harm, and is it intended that the same policy shall be pursued in the future?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: It is early to say yet, but my opinion is that it has not done any harm; and, furthermore, it makes the Fair now entirely self-supporting, without any assistance being required from public funds.

    RUSSIA.
    Sir ASSHETON POWNALLasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether it is intended this spring to publish a report from our commercial counsellor at Moscow on similar lines to that issued as Command Paper 3904, in May, 1931?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: Numerous changes in the structure of Soviet trading organizations have taken and are taking place. A record of these is being kept and is available for consultation by those who are interested. As soon as practicable, arrangements will be made for publishing the revised information.

    SHIPPING INDUSTRY (OBSOLETE TONNAGE).
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any information to show what is the aggregate tonnage of foreign shipping at present in existence which was previously owned by British firms and sold at second-hand to foreign owners?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Dr. Burgin): I regret that the information desired by my hon. and gallant Friend is not available.
    Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Will my hon. Friend request his right hon. Friend to use his influence to ensure that when our shipping is broken up it shall not be sold to foreign countries who have no Board of Trade regulations similar to ours and are, therefore, able to compete with our shipping very unfairly?
    Dr. BURGIN: I think that the whole question of what to do with obsolete tonnage is constantly under consideration by my right hon. Friend.

    COTTON INDUSTRY (JAPANESE COMPETITION).
    Mr. HAMMERSLEY (for Mr. CHORLTON)asked the President of the Board of Trade what action he proposes to take with reference to the large increase in the imports of cotton textile and rayon goods into the countries of the Empire which seriously affect employment in Lancashire?
    Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the question of Japanese competition, which is now under consideration by His Majesty's Government. I cannot at present add to the statements recently made on this subject.

  ARGENTINA RAILWAYS (BRITISH CAPITAL).
  Rear-Admiral SUETERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs at what stage His Majesty's Government proposes to intervene to obtain from the Argentine national and provincial authorities the overdue unpaid debts for railway services owing to railways in the Argentine operating with British capital, in view of the fact that the amounts are large and that British investors are suffering hardship by the non-receipt of moneys due?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir John Simon): The negotiations regarding the state of the account current, to which I referred in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Fulham, West (Sir C. Cobb) on the 20th February, are proceeding in a satisfactory manner between the railway companies and the authorities concerned, and no request has therefore been made by the railway companies for the intervention of His Majesty's Government, who will consider further developments as they occur.

  RUSSIA (DIPLOMATIC PRIVILEGES).
  Captain CAZALETasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any in-
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  formation as regards recent negotiations between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government of Russia as regards the rights and privileges of diplomatic representatives to import into Russia articles for their own personal use?
  Sir J. SIMON: The question is still under discussion with the Soviet Government, and I am not without hope that a satisfactory settlement may be reached. I am circulating a fuller reply in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Captain CAZALET: May I ask whether the Government of the Soviet has in the past made any different treatment from that accorded by other Governments to Members of His Majesty's Diplomatic Corps?
  Sir J. SIMON: I cannot answer that question without notice, but the matter which we are now discussing with the Soviet Government represents a new departure upon which we have made strong representations.
  Mr. LANSBURY: When the right hon. Gentleman circulates his statement will he also, in that statement, tell the House whether the British representatives are being treated differently from others and whether any other diplomats in Moscow have made any complaints?
  Sir J. SIMON: Yes, Sir, I think the statement will cover that.
  Sir A. KNOX: Will the Government extend the same treatment as regards rationing to Soviet representatives in London as they extend to our people in Moscow?
  Following is the reply:
  On the 24th of October last the Soviet Authorities issued an order to the effect that foreign diplomats in Moscow would not, in the future, be permitted to purchase foodstuffs and other necessities of daily life at the State shop for roubles, but only for foreign currency; and an intimation was subsequently given to His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow that the privilege of free importation of such foodstuffs and necessities, previously enjoyed by them, might be withdrawn. These facts, coupled with the growing difficulty of obtaining provisions in the so-called "open" market, aroused grave concern among the diplomatic body in

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  Moscow; and I accordingly caused representations to be made to the Soviet Government by His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow.
  A somewhat similar situation has also arisen in connection with the purchase of railway tickets in the Soviet Union, instructions having been issued by "In-tourist," the Soviet travel organisation for foreign nationals, that in future all their tickets must be paid for in foreign currency. Representations by the Doyen of the diplomatic body have produced an assurance that diplomatists, consuls and diplomatic couriers will continue to receive tickets and sleeping car berths in exchange for roubles for all journeys in the Soviet Union or to any place in the countries bordering the Union and in Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia; but the continuance of similar facilities has not yet been assured in the case of journeys to this country.
  Representations have accordingly been made by His Majesty's Ambassador at Moscow in these and in other matters of principle affecting the position of His Majesty's Representatives in the Soviet Union and of their staffs; and the Soviet Government have been informed that His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are not prepared to agree that those representatives shall receive treatment which is not in accordance with international custom or courtesy.

  BELGIAN SETTLEMENT, 1839.
  Sir FRANK SANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the United States of America was a signatory to The Hague treaties guaranteeing the neutrality of Belgium; and if he will state what other nations were signatories to that guarantee?
  Sir J. SIMON: I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to the Belgian settlement of 1839. This consisted of three treaties signed at London, not at The Hague. The United States of America was not a signatory of those treaties, which were first a treaty between Great Britain, Austria, France, Prussia and Russia on the one hand and the Netherlands on the other; secondly, a treaty between the first five Powers mentioned and Belgium; and thirdly, a treaty between the Netherlands and Belgium.

  CHINA AND JAPAN (MUNITIONS).
  Captain HUNTERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what indications there are of universal agreement, on the part of the foreign countries concerned, with the decision of His Majesty's Government to ban the export of arms to China or Japan?
  Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state what progress has been made with the negotiations set on foot by the League of Nations for the establishment of an embargo prohibiting the sale by members of the League of arms and other munitions of war to Japan?
  Captain PETER MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state the number and names of those countries which equally with ourselves have agreed to an embargo on the export of arms and munitions to the belligerents in the Far East, and the number and names of those countries which are not adopting this policy?
  Mr. HANNONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any European Government has yet instituted an embargo upon the export of arms to the belligerent countries in the Far East; if any conference between European countries on this subject is contemplated; and, it no such conference is contemplated, when does he expect European Governments to declare their policy in this respect?
  Sir J. SIMON: There is no indication of universal agreement. This leaves this country in a situation which cannot be allowed to continue, and this is the first matter which will be taken up by the Prime Minister and myself at Geneva this week.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: Do we understand the right hon. Gentleman to imply by his answer that the Prime Minister and himself are going to press the question at Geneva in the hope that they may secure general agreement among all the nations?
  Sir J. SIMON: The Prime Minister, I am sure, will deal with the matter with the greatest discretion, and, naturally, we shall want to know, when we reach Geneva, what the representatives of other Powers have to propose. I intend to communicate with the principal Powers

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  before we start for Geneva in order that we may be informed in advance.
  Mr. HANNON: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the intensified activity of the Creusot Works in France and the Skoda Works at Pilsen in Czechoslovakia?
  Captain Sir WILLIAM BRASS: Is the Foreign Minister satisfied that other countries are in a. position to be able to enforce this embargo as we are?
  Mr. LANSBURY: If the Government decide to reverse the decision taken last week, will this House have an opportunity both to discuss it and to vote on it?
  Sir J. SIMON: I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that the decision announced last week was a provisional decision in order to give an opportunity of finding out what was the attitude taken up by other Powers. If, unfortunately, it turned out that the attitude taken up by other countries did not permit of universal agreement, there would be no reversal of the decision if we had to make a fresh announcement.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that the decision that was arrived at was welcomed by a very large proportion of the people of the country, and if it is to be reversed this House ought to have an opportunity of discussing and voting upon it, because it will be a reversal, despite what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
  Mr. LEWIS: Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether the Government of any country in the world has expressed unqualified approval of our action with regard to this embargo—any country in the world?
  Colonel WEDGWOOD: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask him whether it is necessary to have the approval and concurrence of foreign countries when we do the right thing?
  Sir J. SIMON: I have already said that there is no indication of universal agreement, and it has been stated from this Box by the Prime Minister as well as by myself that, of course, we have always contemplated that the only permanent arrangement was one which would be universally accepted.
  Captain P. MACDONALD: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if any other country in the world insists upon issuing Government licences for the export of munitions besides ourselves?
  Sir J. SIMON: As far as I am aware, the system existing in this country, which requires a licence issued by the Government before arms and munitions are exported, is a system which does not obtain elsewhere.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is giving serious offence both to Japan and China?
  Mr. MORGAN JONESasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the ultimatum delivered by the Japanese Government to the Chinese Government on 23rd February, and communicated to the League of Nations on 24th February, to the effect that if the Chinese troops resist the Japanese invasion of the province of Jehol the Japanese Government will find it difficult to guarantee that fighting will not spread to North China; and whether, as the unanimous report of the Assembly of 24th February states that no question of Chinese responsibility can arise for the development of events since 18th September, 1931, he will inform the Japanese Government that it will be held responsible for any damage to British property or danger to British subjects resulting from the continuance and extension of the present hostilities?
  Sir J. SIMON: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Before this, on the 12th January, His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo had already reminded the Japanese Government of the magnitude of British national interests in North China and warned them that damage to those interests would give rise to claims for compensation. On the outbreak of hostilities in Jehol, His Majesty's Consul-General at Mukden gave to the Japanese authorities a list of British subjects in Jehol, and His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has requested the Japanese Government to take measures for their protection.
  Mr. JONES: Has any response been received from the Japanese Government? Has there been any undertaking?
  Sir J. SIMON: I should require notice of that question; I am not quite sure.
  Mr. LUNNasked the President of the Board of Trade what will be the position of arms and munition factories abroad owned by British firms; and whether such firms will still have facilities for selling arms and munitions to China and Japan from these factories abroad?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: The control exercised by this country applies only to exports shipped from United Kingdom ports.
  Mr. LUNNasked the President of the Board of Trade whether any existing arms contract between any British firms and the Chinese or Japanese Governments contains a renewable clause the fulfilment of which can defeat the aims of the arms embargo; and, if so, what is the nature of such a clause?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I am not aware of the existence of any such clause.
  Mr. LUNN: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman make inquiries to see whether there is anything of that nature being done by those who are exporting arms to China or Japan?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I will bear in mind the point of my hon. Friend, but my answer is the result of inquiries.
  Earl WINTERTON: What right has the Board of Trade to make inquiries unless the law is being broken? What is their locus standi in the matter?
  Lieut.-Colonel COLVILLE: I have indicated that, as far as I am aware, there are no such clauses operating.
  Earl WINTERTON: I understood my hon. Friend to say that he was going to ask for information? I ask him what locus standi he has for asking? None.

  LEAGUE OF NATIONS CONTRIBUTIONS (CHINA).
  Sir W. DAVISONasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether all arrears of subscription due from the Chinese Government to the League of Nations have now been paid; and, if not, what is the amount still outstanding?
  Sir J. SIMON: As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs explained in reply to the ques-
  798
  tion of my hon. Friend the member for Acton (Mr. Duggan) on the 4th July last, the Chinese Government, in accordance with a special arrangement approved by the 1930 Assembly, is paying off its arrears due for the years 1922–1930 by equal instalments over a period of 23 years, and has in both 1931 and 1932 paid the instalments due under this arrangement. Apart from these yearly payments in respect of arrears for the years 1922 to 1930, China has also, in common with all other States members, to make an annual contribution towards the current expenditure of the League. In respect of the year 1931 China's contribution was assessed at 1,438,861 gold francs and for 1932 at 1,544,643 gold francs. Towards these two contributions China has paid at present 719,428 and 772,208 francs, respectively. For these two years, therefore, China is in arrears to the extent of 1,491,868 francs.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Does my right hon. Friend think that it is fair that China should have the advantages of the League and be so substantially in arrear with her contributions, which are due from her to the League; and can he say whether these dues are payable by the Chinese Government of Peking, Canton or Nanking?
  Sir J. SIMON: The Chinese Government is not the only Government in arrear. The Government from which the amounts are due is the Government which is a member of the League.
  Sir W. DAVISON: Is it the Government of Peking, Canton or Nanking? That seems to me to be a clear question.
  Mr. MAXTON: Are nations that are in arrear allowed by the rules of the. League to take part in a war?

  BRITISH VISAS (GERMANS).
  Captain P. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state how the number of British visas of passports held by German subjects within the last fortnight compares with the average?
  Sir J. SIMON: The only parts of His Majesty's dominions for which German citizens now require visas are India, Gibraltar and Malta. I have no information as to the number of visas granted for those countries within the last fort-

  799
  night. German citizens have not required visas for the United Kingdom since the 1st January, 1928.

  ANGLO-PERSIAN OIL COMPANY.
  Major MILNERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the present position of the dispute between the United Kingdom and Persia in regard to the concession held by the Anglo-Persian Oil Company; and whether negotiations for a settlement are now proceeding?
  Sir J. SIMON: In the reply which I gave on the 7th February to the question asked by the hon. Member for Colchester on this subject, I described the provisional arrangement which had been arrived at as a result of the proceedings before the Council of the League of Nations last January with a view to the settlement of the dispute. In accordance with the terms of that arrangement, direct negotiations, which will, however, remain under the aegis of the Rap-porteur, will shortly be resumed between the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and the Persian Government at Tehran.
  Major MILNER: Is it proposed that the Government should be represented at this conference?
  Sir J. SIMON: No, Sir. The negotiations, as I have just stated, will be negotiations between the Anglo-Persian Oil Company and the Persian Government, but the Rapporteur, Dr. Benesh, will remain in touch with what is going on.

  NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.
  Mr. McENTEEasked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that the daughter of the late James Westbrook, No. 200,235, rifleman, 18th Battalion Rifle Brigade, owing to physical and other defects, is unable to earn her living, and having reached the age of 21 the allowance paid to her mother by the Ministry of Pensions has now ceased; and whether, in view of the circumstances, he will consider this and similar cases among those requiring special treatment?
  The MINISTER of PENSIONS (Major Tryon): I should have no authority to
  800
  grant a further extension of the allowance in the circumstances of this case. On the general question which the hon. Member has in mind, I would refer him to the answer which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barnard Castle (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam) gave on the 21st June last, of which I am sending the hon. Member a copy.
  Mr. McENTEE: Has the Minister control of any special fund or any special institution from which a grant or treatment could be given in cases similar to this?
  Major TRYON: I will gladly see if there is any special fund to which this special case could be referred.
  Mr. BROCKLEBANKasked the Minister of Pensions what is the present policy of the Ministry with regard to the treatment in Liverpool of men whose minds were injured by war service; and whether in any cases such men have been transferred to lunatic asylums?
  Major TRYO N: There has been no change in the policy of the Ministry with regard to the treatment in Liverpool or anywhere else "of men whose minds were injured by war service." I have no authority to detain or treat in a Ministry institution a certified case of mental unsoundness, but my own policy and that of my predecessors has been to provide suitable treatment in special institutions for all cases of mental affection for which the Ministry is responsible, so long as they are not certifiable. As a matter of fact, during the past 12 months, only one case had to be transferred in the Liverpool area to a mental hospital, and that was eight months ago. Any statement, such as I believe has recently been publicly made in Liverpool, to the effect that the policy of the Ministry was, in the interests of economy, to transfer men from Ministry institutions to lunatic asylums is wholly untrue and can only cause needless anxiety.
  Mr. BROCKLEBANK: Can the Minister say what is the authority for this public statement?
  Major TRYON: The authority is that in the "Daily Herald" it was stated that they had an "exclusive revelation" on this subject from the Liverpool Secretary of the British Legion; and I may

  801
  add that I have never seen so many untrue statements concentrated in a small space.
  Mr. DONNERasked the Minister of Pensions the intentions of the Ministry with regard to Maghull hospital, near Liverpool; and whether any patients are to be transferred to any other hospitals?
  Major TRYON: The accommodation provided at Maghull, near Liverpool, which is Crown property and has been used for the treatment of severe cases of epilepsy, has become increasingly in excess of the requirements of my Department and the institution is required by the Board of Control who are in a position to use it more advantageously for their own cases. I have accordingly arranged for the transfer of the patients now at Maghull along with the medical and nursing staff, to Chepstow, another Ministry hospital of more suitable size where equivalent accommodation will be provided.
  Mr. DONNER: Then there is no truth in the suggestion that the Minister of Pensions is trying to get rid of these patients from Ministry of Pensions hospitals?
  Major TRYON: No, Sir; this is another "exclusive revelation." These patients are being transferred from one Ministry of Pensions hospital to another Ministry of Pensions hospital.
  Mr. DONNERasked the Minister of Pensions what is the policy of the Ministry with regard to utilising hospitals under their control or, alternatively, transferring patients to civil hospitals as a measure of economy 7
  Major TRYON: It is the policy of the Ministry to utilise civil hospitals in preference to duplicating existing facilities so far, but only so far, as this practice is consistent with the interests of ex-service patients for whom the Ministry is responsible. Ministry hospitals are provided for various special types of case for which either civil institutions do not provide, or which can be more suitably dealt with in Ministry institutions. With the decline in demand for treatment some of the Ministry hospitals have necessarily had to be dispensed with, but my hon. Friend may rest assured that special
  802
  accommodation will continue to be provided so long as it is needed.
  Mr. NALL-CAINasked the Minister of Pensions how many patients for whom he is responsible are at present being treated for war disabilities in civil hospitals in Liverpool; and what amount of accommodation exists in Mossley Hill hospital?
  Major TRYON: No patients for whom the Ministry is responsible are at present being treated in any Liverpool civil hospital for their accepted war disabilities. Patients requiring institutional treatment in Liverpool are ordinarily sent to the Ministry hospital at Mossley Hill, which has accommodation of 300 beds of which at present 255 are occupied.
  Mr. BROCKLEBANK: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the panel doctors have complained of lack of accommodation in the Liverpool hospitals?
  Major TRYON: No such complaints have been received, and there is no foundation whatever for newspaper statements to that effect.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    GOVERNMENT POLICY.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Prime Minister whether he can now undertake to lay before this House a White Paper giving full details of the schemes for the alleviation of unemployment which the Government have now under consideration?
    The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): This is the same question as the one which the hon. Member addressed to me last Thursday. Some misunderstanding arose on that occasion, and I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving me this opportunity to clear it up. The policy of the Government in regard to schemes for the provision of work for the unemployed was indicated during the course of the Debate on the 16th February, and in these circumstances I do not think that any useful purpose would be served at this moment by adopting the course suggested by the hon. Member.
    Mr. BATEY: Does that answer mean that the Government are not considering any schemes to alleviate unemployment?
    The PRIME MINISTER: Quite the opposite; I referred the hon. Member to the place where he will find a statement about those schemes.
    Mr. BATEY: On the 16th February. There is nothing there that helps us. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us now: are the Government considering any schemes, or have they considered any schemes, to deal with this important matter?
    The PRIME MINISTER: I cannot go beyond the answer I have just given to the hon. Member's question.
    Mr. BATEY rose—
    Mr. SPEAKER: Mr. Levy.
    Mr. BATEY: I have only asked two supplementary questions.

    WORK SCHEMES.
    Mr. MABANEasked the Minister of Health whether it is his intention to issue a communication to local authorities to the effect that schemes of approved work may be begun without delay or, if begun, may be completed, with a view to the mitigation of unemployment in the building industry and associated industries?
    The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young): It is not intended to issue a further communication. I have no reason to think that local authorities are delaying to proceed with approved works through any misunderstanding of the position.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Minister of Health with regard to the schemes put forward by the Easington Rural District Council for the purpose of providing work for 66 men in the Seaham Division and carrying out improvements for the health of the district, whether he will reconsider his refusal to sanction these schemes and inquire further into the advisability of adopting them?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I understand that the question refers to certain schemes of sewerage which the council are preparing. I have not yet received an application for sanction to a loan. Any such application will be considered in the light of
    804
    the policy of the Government as explained to the House on 15th ultimo.

    NEW EXCHANGE BUILDING, NORWICH.
    Mr. HARTLANDasked the First Commissioner of Works whether he is prepared to sanction the building of the proposed new Employment Exchange in Colegate Street, Norwich, in place of that in Prince of Wales Road, which is now altogether inadequate?
    The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Ormsby-Gore): Yes, Sir. Tenders have been obtained for the building of the new Norwich Employment Exchange, and it is hoped to begin work shortly.
    Mr. HARTLAND: In view of the considerable unemployment in the building trades in Norwich, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this matter will be expedited especially seeing that it was incontinently turned down by the late Labour Government in the person of the present Leader of the Opposition?
    Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I think that there is a long history behind it, and there is still a little matter to be cleared up about a bit of land ten feet by six. Beyond that, the difficulties have now been overcome, and there is no reason why, the tenders now being in, we should not decide on the tenders at once.

    GREAT HARWOOD, LANCASHIRE.
    Sir W. BRASSasked the Minister of Labour the number of persons registered as unemployed in Great Harwood, Lancashire, in September, 1931, and on the latest date for which figures are available?
    Sir FREDERICK THOMSON (Treasurer of the Household): I have been asked to reply. At 21st September, 1931, there were 7,828 unemployed persons on the registers of the Great Harwood Employment Exchange. At 23rd January, 1933, the number was 4,377.

  GREAT BRITAIN AND UNITED STATES (DISCUSSIONS).
  Mr. LEVYasked the Prime Minister whether he can now outline broadly the proposals which will be put forward by the British mission in the approaching debts conference?
  The PRIME MINISTER: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 23rd February to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Mr. Hammersley), to which I have nothing to add.
  Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNE: Has the date yet been fixed, or is there any likelihood of its being fixed soon?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No date has yet been fixed. I am sure the House will understand that, as the inauguration was only on Saturday, matters cannot yet have gone that far.
  Mr. LANSBURY (by Private Notice)asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to assure the House that before the vital discussion with the United States Government on the question of War Debts takes place he will, in circumstances which will permit Debate, make a statement outlining the broad principles of the policy the Government propose to pursue, and whether he can make any statement of any action proposed by the Government in relation to the financial crisis which has arisen in the United States?
  The PRIME. MINISTER: The situation is at present so uncertain that I am sure my right hon. Friend will appreciate the difficulty at the present time of trying to define the occasion on which a Debate on War Debts might profitably take place. As regards the last part of the question, His Majesty's Government are following with sympathetic interest the serious developments of the internal banking difficulties in the United States. No action by His Majesty's Government seems to be called for at the present moment.
  Mr. LANSBURY: In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has no notion when these conferences are to take place, and that there are between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 unemployed people in this country who have been told, that they must wait for these conferences before there can be any recovery, surely this House should be asked to discuss whether some measures cannot be taken by ourselves to deal with the matter? If it is possible for the President of the United States to take action immediately on his appointment, is it not time that this Government, which has been in office
  806
  now for some 18 months, should take some definite and immediate measures to relieve the situation in this country?
  The PRIME MINISTER: That is a totally different question from that put by the right hon. Gentleman in his private notice question. I have answered his question.
  Mr. LANSBURY: What are people outside to think when the House of Commons cannot discuss these important questions and when we are shelved off month after month and told to wait, Meanwhile people are starving. I want to know what we exist for?
  HON. MEMBERS: Order, order.
  Mr. SPEAKER: There was nothing about this in the private notice question which the right hon. Gentleman submitted to me.

  AGRICULTURE.

    MEAT AND DAIRY PRODUCE (IMPORT RESTRICTIONS).
    Mr. LAMBERTasked the Minister of Agriculture what progress has been made in the restriction of imports of mutton, bacon, and dairy produce from Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries with currencies depreciated in relation to sterling?
    The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Major Elliot): I regret I have nothing to add at present to the replies which were given on 9th February and 2nd March, respectively, to my hon. Friends the Member for Colchester (Mr. Lewis> and the Member for the City of Chester (Sir C. Cayzer), of which I am sending him copies.
    Mr. LAMBERT: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be able to give a reply? Is it not a fact that depreciated currencies in New Zealand and Australia are a breach of the Ottawa Agreements?

    IMPORTED EGGS AND POULTRY (MARKING).
    Mr. ATTLEEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will take steps to see that all cooled, cold-stored, or gas-stored poultry eggs in shell imported into this country shall be marked with indelible ink with the appropriate description?
    Major ELLIOT: In the absence of international agreement on this question it is not possible to enforce the marking, with appropriate descriptions, of eggs that have been kept in cold or gas storage outside this country. All such imported eggs are, however, required to bear an indication of the country of origin or the word "Empire" or "Foreign," as the case may be.
    Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN: Will the Government reconsider their attitude towards the Imported Foodstuffs (Marking) Bill, which was talked out by the Liberal apposition a fortnight ago, and which would have dealt with this matter?
    Mr. ATTLEEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can give the House any information as to the progress of the committee inquiring into the possibility of marking all imported dead poultry with the name of the country of origin or the word Imported in some permanent manner and in a prominent position on the carcase?
    Major ELLIOT: The Standing Committee under the Merchandise Marks Act, 1926, to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, is inquiring into an application for an Order in Council requiring the marking of all imported meat, bacon, ham and meat offals as well as of poultry. I understand that considerable evidence has been taken by the Committee in respect of meat, bacon and ham, and that when this part of the inquiry has been completed poultry will be the next commodity to be considered.

    POTATOES.
    Mr. SHAWasked the Minister of Agriculture if, considering the present price of potatoes and the stocks of potatoes at present in this country, he will consider the advisability of temporarily prohibiting their importation?
    Major ELLIOT: I have no powers to take the action suggested by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. McKIEasked the Minister of Agriculture if he is aware that the Irish Free State Government is offering a higher bounty on potatoes for export to Great Britain from their wart-disease scheduled districts than on potatoes from their clean areas; and if he will take
    808
    steps to prohibit the importation of such potatoes into Great Britain?
    Major ELLIOT: The sale of Irish potatoes in this country, whether for planting or for consumption, is governed by the Wart Disease of Potatoes Order of 1923, of which I am sending a copy to my hon. Friend. I have no reason to question the efficacy of these Regulations, but if my hon. Friend has any evidence to the contrary I shall be happy to consider it.

    WHEAT DEFICIENCY PAYMENTS.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Agriculture the amount of wheat subsidy that has been paid to farmers in the county of Norfolk by the Wheat Commissioners up to the last available date; and the amount assigned by farmers to landowners, banks and merchants for the same period?
    Major ELLIOT: Advances amount approximately to £116,300 on account of deficiency payments have been made by the Wheat Commission to growers in Norfolk. Up to date, the Commission have received notice of 20 assignments of deficiency payments by Norfolk growers, covering about 7,300 cwts. of wheat; the advances involved amount to about £1,100.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Does the £116,000 refer to the first or to the first and second payments?
    Major ELLIOT: It refers to all the payments up to the present date.

    HORSES (SUPPLY).
    Lieut.-Colonel MOOREasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has any information to show whether the present supply of draught horses in this country will prove sufficient to meet the demand necessitated by the revival of arable agriculture; and whether he is satisfied that the present schemes of State encouragement for heavy horse-breeding in this country are adequate for their purpose?
    Major ELLIOT: As regards the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, I have no reason to suppose that the supply of horses for agricultural purposes is likely to prove inadequate. The answer to the second part is in the affirmative.

  RIVER WORKS.
  Mr. FREDERICK HALLasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will give particulars of the schemes which were prepared for the river Thames in September, 1931; how much money this scheme was estimated to cost; and what part of it is now being progressed with?
  Major ELLIOT: I have no information as to any schemes prepared for the river Thames in 1931. Certain works on the river Thames and the river Wey are being carried out by the Thames Conservancy and the county councils concerned under schemes approved in 1930 for grant from the Unemployment Grants Committee. These two schemes were estimated to cost respectively £300,000 and £240,000. A scheme for the dredging of the Thames above Oxford estimated to cost £50,000 was sanctioned by the Ministry under its 1929 programme of State-aided land drainage schemes for the relief of the unemployed and is still in progress. If the hon. Member so desires, I will send him information as to the progress of these schemes.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: What are the total Government grants to this scheme?
  Major ELLIOT: I should require notice of that question.
  Mr. PRICEasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is aware that a scheme for the River Avon, Warwick, was prepared by the catchment area authority and sanctioned by the late Government with a promise of grant; what progress has been made with the scheme; and whether the Government is now prepared to contribute to the cost?
  Mr. F. HALLasked the Minister of Agriculture (1) whether he is aware that a scheme for the River Ouse, Yorkshire, was prepared by the catchment area authority and sanctioned by the late Government with a promise of grant; what progress has been made with the scheme; and whether the Government is now prepared to contribute to the cost;
  (2) whether he is aware that a scheme for the River Great Ouse was prepared by the catchment area authority and sanctioned by the late Government with a promise of grant; what progress has been made with the scheme; and whether
  810
  the Government is now prepared to contribute to the cost?
  'Major ELLIOT: The answer to the first part of the questions is in the negative. As regards the last part, the position with regard to Government grants is as set out in the reply which I gave on 20th February to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), of which I am sending copies to the hon. Members.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Are we to understand that, notwithstanding the terrific floods from which a, great deal of Yorkshire is now suffering, the Government may not be expected to change their minds with regard to grants?
  Major ELLIOT: I do not think that arises out of the question.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: Is it a fact that a scheme has now been produced, and is there any chance that the Government may change their mind with regard to a grant?
  Major ELLIOT: I gave the hon. Gentleman an answer with regard to Government grants on a previous occasion.

  POST OFFICE.

    NATIONAL SAVINGS CERTIFICATES (ADDISON GARDENS COMMITTEE).
    Sir W. DAVISONasked the Postmaster-General when he expects to be able to make a statement to the House with regard to the forfeiture or partial forfeiture of National Savings Certificates held by the nominees of the Committee of Addison Gardens, Kensington; whether he is aware that this matter has been under consideration by the Post Office and the Treasury for nearly a year; and what is the cause of the delay in arriving at a decision?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir Kingsley Wood): As I recently informed my hon. Friend, a decision has now been reached, and a letter will be sent shortly to the Addison Gardens Committee.
    Sir W. DAVISON: In view of that communication, which I understand says that Income Tax has to be deducted, on what amount is Income Tax to be paid? Is my right hon. Friend aware that the trustees of these gardens took national

    811
    savings certificates for the reason that there was no Income Tax payable; otherwise, they would have bought Funding loan or other stock which would now have shown a large appreciation in value?
    Sir K. WOOD: My hon. Friend knows that the Committee were not authorised holders of the stock, and, in the circumstances I would suggest that they should seriously consider the concession that has been offered to them.

    ADVISORY COMMITIEE.
    Mr. HUTCHISONasked the Postmaster-General if he will arrange to publish from time to time the suggestions put forward by the members of the Post Office Advisory Committee, and the decisions reached thereon, so that the public may be able to assess the value of this body?
    Sir K. WOOD: The practice has always been to regard the proceedings of the Post Office Advisory Council as being confidential, and any departure from this practice would, in my opinion, detract from the usefulness of the Council.

    WIRELESS LICENCES.
    Mr. McENTEEasked the Postmaster-General the number of wireless licences taken out during 1932; the number of prosecutions taken against people for operating without a licence; and the total amount of fines?
    Sir K. WOOD: The number of wireless receiving licences issued during the year 1932 was approximately 5,263,000. The number of prosecutions undertaken during the same year for the use of unlicensed wireless sets was 2,825, and the total amount of the fines and costs imposed was £2,833.
    Mr. McENTEE: Is the amount of the fines plus the licences taken out more or less than the actual cost of the prosecutions?
    Sir K. WOOD: I could not answer that without notice. Of course, these prosecutions must also be judged apart from that aspect. Sometimes they are an encouragement to other people.

    STAMP MACHINES, COLCHESTER.
    Mr. LEWISasked the Postmaster-General if, having regard to the popularity of the slot machines for stamps at the head post office in Colchester, he will
    812
    consider the advisability of installing similar machines in other post offices in that town?
    Sir K. WOOD: Machines have been installed at four sub-post offices in Colchester in addition to the one at the head post office and the provision of a machine at a fifth sub-office is in hand. I am considering the question of installing machines at other offices in the town.

    CENTRAL TELEGRAPH OFFICE (PROMOTION).
    Commander MARSDENasked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the stagnation prevailing in the cable room of the Central Telegraph Office at the present time; and whether he will take advantage of any opportunities that may present themselves of relieving the position?
    Sir K. WOOD: I regret that, owing to the decline in Foreign Telegraph business, there is some redundancy of staff and, as a consequence, stagnation of promotion in the cable room. Such steps as are practicable are taken to relieve the situation by transfers to other offices, but it will be appreciated that the available opportunities are extremely limited.

    SLOANE TELEPHONE EXCHANGE AREA.
    Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMSasked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the frequency of breakdowns and mechanical errors in the automatic dialling machines in the Sloane telephone exchange area; whether any steps are being taken to make these machines more efficient; and whether he will abolish the extra charge made for hand-microphone instruments in view of their liability to error?
    Sir K. WOOD: My inquiries do not show that breakdowns and mechanical errors in the Sloane telephone exchange area have been unduly frequent. On the contrary, test calls which are made periodically indicate that the service at Sloane is satisfactory and compares favourably with that given at other London automatic exchanges. If my hon. Friend has information of any specific instances of difficulty and will let me have particulars, I shall be pleased to have them investigated. The dialling apparatus on the hand-microphone instrument is identical with that on the ordinary pedestal instrument, and I know of no reason for the suggestion that the former type is specially liable to error.
    Sir W. BRASS: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this inefficiency is not confined to the Sloane Exchange and that the human element in other exchanges is far better than this mechanically operated thing?
    Sir K. WOOD: I cannot assent to that view though, in some cases, a tuition course on an automatic telephone would be advisable.

    AIR MAILS (PARCELS).
    Mr. RANKINasked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that although the aggregate weight of British air-mail matter despatched from this country last year exceeded previous records the weight of the parcel air mails showed a small decrease, he is taking new steps to encourage the sending of parcels and samples by air mail?
    Sir K. WOOD: There has been a general decrease in the volume of parcel traffic handled by the Post Office during the last two years, due largely to the prevailing trade depression: and the small decrease in parcel air mails is in accordance with this tendency. I can assure my hon. Friend that no opportunity will be lost of taking all such steps as are available further to promote this service.

  LOCAL EXPENDITURE.
  Mr. H. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Health the expenditure in the current year, and for comparison that in 1929–30, in respect of the two chief items which constitute the economies of £20,000,000 effected on the basis of the 1929–30 expenditure?
  Sir H. YOUNG: The total expenditure including capital expenditure from all sources of local authorities in England and Wales in 1929–30 on education and highways amounted to £89,550,000 and £66,650,000 respectively. I regret that I have no information as to the corresponding expenditure in the current year.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: Is there any information as to how the estimate of £20,000,000 of economies is arrived at?
  Sir H. YOUNG: I have given the information for which the hon. Member asked in the question, and, if any further
  814
  details or information are required on the subject, I shall be happy to give them to him.

  HAMPSTEAD HEATH (BUILDINGS).
  Mr. LEWISasked the Under-Secretary of State for Air whether agreement has yet been reached with the London County Council as to the nature of the buildings to be erected at Heath Brow, Hampstead Heath?
  Sir VICTOR WARRENDER (Vice-Chamberlain of the Household): I have been asked to reply. Negotiations are still in progress.
  Mr. LEWIS: Will the hon. Gentleman say why the Ministry persisted in disregarding the regulations of the town planning scheme, particularly having regard to the fact that this property is in the very centre of the Heath?
  Sir V. WARRENDER: I do not think that that matter arises out of the question.

  HOUSING.

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES' SCHEMES.
    Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Health whether, with regard to the applications made by the Tring Urban District Council, the Leek Urban District Council, and the Loughborough Rural District Council for sanction to build houses, he will state the rents proposed to be charged, exclusive of rates, and the type of houses; and if he can state the superficial area in feet proposed by each of the authorities?
    Sir H. YOUNG: I am sending the hon. Member the particulars he desires.

    WORKING-CLASS HOUSES (COMMMEE).
    Captain CAZALET (by Private Notice)asked the Minister of Health whether he is yet able to announce the terms of reference and composition of the Departmental Committee to be set up with regard to the reconditioning of slums and other matters?
    Sir H. YOUNG: Yes. The terms of reference to the committee will be as follows:
    To consider and report—

    (a) What, if any, further steps are necessary or desirable to secure the main-

    815
    tenance of a proper standard of fitness for human habitation in working-class houses which are neither situate in an area suitable for clearance under Part I of the Housing Act, 1930, nor suitable for demolition under Section 19 of that Act; and

    (b) What, if any, further steps are necessary or desirable to promote the supply of houses for the working classes, without public charge, through the agency of public utility societies or other bodies subject to similar limitations operating in particular areas or otherwise.

    The right hon. the Lord Moyne, D.S.O., has consented to act as Chairman of the Committee, and the other members will be:
    The right hon. Member for Northern Cornwall (The Right Hon. Sir Francis Dyke Acland, Bt.).
    The right hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major The Right Hon. J. W. Hills).
    The hon. Member for Southampton (Sir Charles Barrie, K.B.E.).
    The hon. Member for Winchester (Sir Geoffrey Ellis, Bt.).
    The hon. and gallant Member for Chelmsford (Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson, M.C.).
    The hon. Member for Dundee (Miss F. Horsbrugh, M.B.E.).
    The hon. Member for South Bristol (Mr. N. K. Lindsay).
    The hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke (Major G. Lloyd George).
    The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Dr. J. V. Worthington).
    Mr. CROSSLEY: To which hon. Member for Dundee does the right hon. Gentleman refer?
    Sir H. YOUNG: The hon. Lady the junior Member for Dundee (Miss Horsbrugh).

  HOURS OF WORK.
  Mr. THORNEasked the Minister of Labour the terms of the resolution passed at the Geneva Conference in January in connection with a 40-hour working week, and the number of delegates voting for and against the resolution?
  Sir F. THOMSON: A copy of the report of the Tripartite Technical Conference has been placed in the Library. An extract from this report, dealing with the three principal resolutions (out of a
  816
  total of 20) and giving the results of the voting, is being circulated in the OFFCIAL REPORT.
  Sir W. BRASS: Can my hon. and learned Friend say whether the populations of the countries are also included in this return?
  Sir F. THOMSON: I do not think that that information is in the Department, but, if my hon. Friend will study the extract in the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that there is a great deal of information contained in it.
  The following is the Extract:
  " INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFFICE.
  Extract from report of the Preparatory Conference (10–25 th January, 1933).
  HOURS OF WORK AND UNEMPLOYMENT.
  The general discussion showed that the main questions with which the conference was faced were covered by the following points:

  1. Is the reduction of hours of work capable of decreasing unemployment?

  2. Is such a reduction necessarily contingent upon international agreement being reached?

  3. Are there any special conditions which must be considered as indispensable to ensure that that reduction in hours of work would be effective, and in particular is it necessary that the standard of life of the workers should be maintained?

  These conditions were set forth in two draft resolutions submitted to the conference, one by the workers' group, the other by the Government delegates of France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Chile, Germany and Italy. The draft resolution submitted by the workers' group was as follows:
  ' The conference considers
  That discussion on the project of a 40-hour week Convention should proceed on the basis that weekly wages and monthly salaries will not be reduced by reason of the reduction of hours resulting from the adoption and application of such Convention.'
  The draft resolution submitted by the seven Government delegates referred to above read:
  The conference after reviewing the various arguments advanced for and against a reduction of working hours, considers that it is one of the measures which would contribute to reducing unemployment.
  The conference therefore decides to examine its detailed aspects, taking the questions raised in Part II of the conclusion of the report of the office as the basis of its examination, in order to

  817
  reach an arrangement of an international character the methods of giving effect to which would be determined with a view to rendering possible the maintenance of the standard of life of the wage-earners.'
  The workers' resolution was put to the vote first and was rejected by 32 votes (12 Government delegates and 20 employers' delegates) against 21 votes (two Government delegates and 19 workers' delegates) and 17 abstentions.
  The workers' group then made the following statement:
  ' We shall vote in favour of the resolution submitted by the Government delegates because it contains the principle which was at the basis of the workers' resolution.
  If, as we hope, that resolution is adopted, we are convinced that the work of the International Labour Office which will complete the work of the present conference will be carried out along the lines indicated not only in the workers' resolution but also in that submitted by the Government delegates.'
  In order to confirm and strengthen that statement the British workers' delegate made the following statement:
  ' The British workers would have preferred the clearer language of the Workers' Resolution, but as two Governments, in response to the direct questions put to them yesterday, have said that there is no vital difference of intention or principle, but only of phraseology, between the Workers' Resolution and that of the Governments, on that understanding— while keeping ourselves free to decide what our action shall be in June when we see the actual terms in which the draft international measure is presented—we have decided to vote for the Governments' Resolution.'
  The employers' group stated that its attitude had been determined with regard to the terms of the resolution itself and not with regard to the interpretations put upon it by certain members of the conference.
  The Italian employers' representative, whilst calling attention to the technical difficulties of such a regulation, nevertheless considered that the social and political aspects of the question called for its further serious examination and on those grounds made a statement to explain his vote.
  The resolution submitted by the seven Government delegates was adopted by 41 votes (21 Government delegates, 19 workers' delegates and one employers' delegate), against 22 votes (three Government delegates, 19 employers) and seven abstentions."

  UNION OF BENEFICES ACT (BOLTON).
  Sir JOHN HASLAMasked the hon. Member for Central Leeds, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if he can inform the House as to the reason
  818
  why no action has been taken on the unanimous report made by the special commission set up to inquire into the amalgamation of the parishes of Christ Church, Bolton, with the adjoining parishes?
  Mr. DENMAN (Second Church Estates Commissioner): Action in accordance with the Union of Benefices Measure, 1923, has been taken and a scheme is before the Privy Council, but certain objectors have appealed against the confirmation of the scheme and the appeal has been referred to the Judicial Committee.
  Sir J. HASLAM: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that for nearly two years there has been no pastoral visitation or supervision in this parish, and that the whole parochial system, which, after all, is the greatest attribute of the Church of England, is in abeyance, and that there has been practically no visitation of the poor, sick or dying in this down-town parish?
  Mr. DENMAN: I have already observed that the matter is before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and I cannot interfere with them.

  MAGISTRATES' DECISIONS (RESTRICTED RESIDENCE).
  Mr. HUTCHISONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department the numbers of people who are now bound over in the Metropolitan area on condition that they shall not live within a certain radius of London; and how the police in each of these cases ensure that the defendants do not live in London?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Gilmour): I regret that I cannot give the information asked for in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, if a person were found to be living in London in breach of a, condition of his recognizance, he would no doubt be brought before the court to be dealt with in the usual way.
  Mr. HUTCHISON: May I ask my right hon. Friend if such sentences are not rather ridiculous, and would it not be advisable to advise all magistrates throughout the country that such sentences bring the law into contempt?

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS (CINEMAS).
  Mr. BATEYasked the Home Secretary the latest figures showing how many local authorities have acted under the procedure governing opening of cinemas on Sunday; how many orders have been withheld; and for what reason?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 28th February to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. Thorne). The only information which I have to add to that reply is that applications for facilities for the Sunday opening of cinemas have since been submitted to me by two more areas, and that these applications are in course of being laid before Parliament as the law provides.
  Mr. THORNE: After a poll has been taken by the people recording their votes for or against, is this House entitled to turn down any scheme?
  Sir J. GILMOUR: Yes, certainly; it has done so.
  Mr. THORNE: What is the good of it?

  TRANSPORT.

    TRAFFIC SIGNS (WHITE LINES).
    Mr. REMERasked the Minister of Transport if in view of the success of white traffic lines as a help to the motor community and in view of the many accidents saved by this device, he will make an order that these white lines shall be compulsory at all corners?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of TRANSPORT (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): The effectiveness of white lines depends to a certain extent upon a reasonable restraint in their use. I understand that the Departmental Committee on Traffic Signs will deal with the use of white lines in their report, which my hon. Friend expects to receive shortly. He has no authority to make such an Order as my hon. Friend suggests.

    ACCIDENTS.
    Mr. LEWISasked the Minister of Transport if having regard to the fact that since the provisions of Part I of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, came into operation there has been little diminution in the number of fatal street acci-
    820
    dents and an increase in the number of cases of injury, despite some diminution in the number of mechanically-propelled vehicles, he proposes to introduce legislation to provide for the greater safety of persons using public thoroughfares?
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I am not satisfied that the causes of any considerable proportion of accidents on roads are susceptible of removal by further legislation. Fresh light may, however, be thrown on the subject by the investigation into the causes of fatal accidents which is now being carried out by my Department with the help of the police.
    Sir W. BRASS: Will my hon. and gallant Friend consider making it compulsory for all drivers to know the code of the road before they are given licences to drive.
    Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: I have observed that this is a question which is most certainly being considered by His Majesty's Government.

  DISARMAMENT CONFERENCE.
  Mr. LANSBURY (by Private Notice)asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with respect to the Disarmament Conference?
  The PRIME MINISTER: My right hon. Friend has no doubt seen a statement which the Government issued to the Press on Friday evening. I have nothing which I can usefully add thereto. The Foreign Secretary and I intend to proceed to Geneva as soon as can be conveniently arranged.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I should like to raise a question regarding the Privileges of this House. It is usual when Parliament is sitting, and the Government have an important statement to make, that such statement should be made in the House of Commons. There was plenty of time on Friday after the Cabinet meeting, which I understood took place, for the Government to have arranged for a, statement to be made in the House. If they did not want to make an arrangement with the Opposition, it could have been arranged through the Patronage Secretary for one of their own Members to put a question at the close of business on Friday. I think it is a very grave departure that Members of this

  821
  House, over the week-end, should have to get information from the newspapers, which is not always accurate.
  The PRIME MINISTER: I agree that newspaper information is not always accurate, but when it is given by the Government, it is. With reference to the further part of the question, there was no policy to announce, and there was no policy announced in the newspapers on Friday. As a matter of fact, it was not possible to make an announcement in the House before it rose on Friday.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am sorry to disagree with the right hon. Gentleman, but I am under the impression that I read the news on the tape before I left the House on Friday.
  Sir J. SIMON indicated dissent.
  Mr. LANSBURY: The Foreign Secretary shakes his head. I must put my own memory against his. I wish to emphasise the fact that there is a growing habit on the part of the Government to give the country information through the newspapers, instead of on the Floor of this House. We ought to have been able to ask questions on the statement. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is going to Geneva without giving the House any information, clear and definite, as to why he and the Foreign Secretary are called upon at a moment's notice to go; and what proposals he intends to make to the Disarmament Conference? Surely this House is as much entitled to know as anybody?
  The PRIME MINISTER: No question of policy was raised in the statement, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that, as a matter of fact, the time was such that under the Rules of this House it was impossible before four o'clock for myself or anybody else to come from the place where we were sitting and announce that we were going to Geneva. The business of the House has to be suspended, there is no Motion for the Adjournment on Fridays, Mr. Speaker leaves the Chair, and the time at our disposal was inadequate to make arrangements for any such announcement on Friday afternoon. I am giving that information to the House to show that no discourtesy was meant and that the point was not overlooked. As a matter of fact, the nature
  822
  of the decision that we should go to Geneva was not a decision in regard to policy and, therefore, does not come under a question of courtesy.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I hope the Prime Minister will kindly give me his attention. He is quite mistaken in saying that it is anything unusual for the Government to come to the House of Commons and ask to be allowed to make an important statement on a Friday afternoon. The Lord President of the Council did so last Session, I forget the exact occasion, but I think it was in connection with the Lausanne Agreement. Arrangements were specially made for this to be done on a Friday afternoon, and, if the Lord President of the Council can do so, the right hon. Gentleman can; and to say that it could not be done because of the Rules of the House is sheer nonsense and is playing with the House. I repeat; the House was treated extremely badly last Friday in not having the statement made to it instead of publishing it in the Press.
  Mr. MAXTON: Further in regard to the question that has been put, not merely the question of procedure: can the Prime Minister now tell the House when he and the Foreign Secretary are going to Geneva; how long they are going to be away; and are they going for the general purposes of the Disarmament Conference or in connection with the more limited question of the Chinese-Japanese embargo, which the Foreign Secretary said would be dealt with? Further, does the Prime Minister think that to go to the Disarmament' Conference is the most important work that our Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary can do at the present time?
  The PRIME MINISTER: At the moment we think it is a piece of work so important that it should be done. Our purpose in going to Geneva is to try and get some sort of agreement as to how the Disarmament Conference can do its business in the best way at the moment. There is no new policy. We are going to try and use whatever influence we may have to get the Disarmament Conference to a point when an agreement although not reached is well within sight.
  Mr. LANSBURY: But the right hon. Gentleman is going to Geneva without the House of Commons knowing all the facts which have compelled the Government to

  823
  take the extraordinary step of sending the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary to the Disarmament Conference, without the House having any opportunity of discussing the matter. Surely this House has a right to know?
  The PRIME MINISTER: The right hon. Gentleman seems to forget that both the Foreign Secretary and I have been to Geneva on Disarmament business again and again. Moreover, the list of British delegates, published when the Disarmament Conference started its work, included both the Foreign Secretary and myself. We are technically at Geneva now.
  Mr. LANSBURY: The majority of the House of Commons may accept that statement, but I say that it is playing with the House of Commons for the Prime Minister not to make a full and complete statement of what the Under-Secretary of State came back and told him, and which has caused the Government to take this hasty decision.

  AGRICULTURAL MARKETING BILL,
  " to provide for regulating the importation and sale of agricultural products and for organising the production of secondary agricultural products; to amend the law with respect to the marketing of agricultural products; and to make further provision in connection with the matters aforesaid," presented by Major Elliot; supported by Sir John Gilmour, Secretary Sir Godfrey Collins, Mr. Runciman, and the Attorney-General; to be read a Second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 67.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. LANSBURY: I should like to know how far the Prime Minister proposes to go with the business down for to-day?
Mr. MOLSON: May I also ask whether the Government are aware that it is important that the Doncaster Drainage Bill should be passed as soon as possible?
The PRIME MINISTER: We want to get the first three Orders on the Paper —Housing (Financial Provisions) Bill, the Doncaster Area Drainage Bill, and the Visiting Forces (British Commonwealth) Bill. There are also other Orders on the Paper, Nos. 4 and 5—Evidence (Foreign, Dominion and Colonial Documents) Bill, Assurance Companies (Winding Up) Bill —which it is understood are not contentious. There is no intention of keeping the House unduly late. The Government hope to obtain the remaining stages of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Bill, and will make as much progress as possible with the other Orders on the Paper to which I have referred. I hope that it will be possible to deal with the Doncaster Area Drainage Bill to-day, because, as the House is aware, there is further serious flooding in that district.
Mr. LANSBURY: In regard to the business announced by the Prime Minister, of course, so far as we are concerned, we shall do everything possible to help the Doncaster Area Drainage Bill through, but, as regards the Assurance Companies (Winding Up) Bill, we have not had an opportunity of really looking at that Bill, and we are not sure, therefore, what our attitude will be.
The PRIME MINISTER: If there is any objection to proceeding with that Bill, it certainly will not be proceeded with.
Motion made, and Question put,
" That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 31.

Division No. 66.]

AYES.

[4.2 p.m.

Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

Brass, Captain Sir William

Agnew, Lieut.-Com. p. G.

Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsna'th,C.)

Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

Albery, Irving James

Belt, Sir Alfred L.

Broadbent, Colonel John

Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.

Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

Brocklebank, C. E. R.

Aske, Sir Robert William

Bernays, Robert

Brown,Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

Birchall, Major Sir Jobs Dearman

Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

Atholl, Duchess of

Blindell, James

Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Bottom, A. C.

Burnett, John George

Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

Boulton, W. W.

Butler, Richard Austen

Balntel, Lord

Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

Cadegan, Hon. Edward

Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

Bowyar, Capt. Sir George E. W.

Calne, G. R. Hall-

Barrle, Sir Charles Coupar

Boyd-Carpenter, sir Archibald

Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

Castlereagh, Viscount

Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

Procter, Major Henry Adam

Castle Stewart, Earl

Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

Raikes, Henry V, A. M.

Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

Holdsworth, Herbert

Ramsay. T. B. W. (Western Isles)

Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

Ramsbotham, Herwald

Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

Hornby, Frank

Rathbone, Eleanor

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

Horobln, Ian M.

Rea Walter Russell

Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Horsbrugh, Florence

Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

Remer, John R.

Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

Ropner, Colonel L.

Clarke, Frank

Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

Rothschild, James A. de

Colfox, Major William Philip

Hurd, Sir Percy

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

Runge, Norah Cecil

Conant, R. J. E.

Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

Cook, Thomas A.

Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

Russell, Richard John (Eddlsbury)

Cooke, Douglas

Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

Cooper, A. Duff

Ker, J. Campbell

Salmon, Sir Isldore

Courtauld, Major John Sewell

Kerr, Hamilton W.

Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

Kirkpatrick, William M.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

Knight, Holford

Sandeman. Sir A. N. Stewart

Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.

Knox, Sir Alfred

Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

Crooke, J. Smedley

Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

Savery, Samuel Servington

Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

Crossley. A. C.

Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovll)

Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

Davison, Sir William Henry

Leech, Dr. J. W.

Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

Danman. Hon. R. D.

Lees-Jones, John

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

Leighton, Major B. E. P.

Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

Dickle, John P.

Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

Skelton, Archibald Noel

Donner, P. W.

Levy, Thomas

Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

Duckworth, George A. V.

Lewis, Oswald

Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

Liddall, Walter S.

Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.)

Duggan, Hubert John

Lindsay, Noel Ker

Smith-Carington, Neville W.

Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunllffe-

Smithers, Waldron

Dunglass, Lord

Lloyd, Geoffrey

Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

Elliston, Captain George Sampson

Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

Eimley, Viscount

Mabane, William

Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

Emrys-Evans, P. V.

MacAndrcw, Capt. J. o. (Ayr)

Spencer, Captain Richard A.

Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)

Exsenhigh, Reginald Clare

Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

Stourton, Hon. John J.

Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

McKie, John Hamilton

Strauss, Edward A.

Everard, W. Lindsay

Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

Fermoy, Lord

McLean, Major Sir Alan

Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

Fleming, Edward Lascelles

Macmillan, Maurice Harold

Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

Summersby, Charles H.

Fox, Sir Gifford

Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

Sutcliffe, Harold

Fremantle, Sir Francis

Marsden, Commander Arthur

Touche, Gordon Cosmo

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

Tryon. Rt. Hon. George Clement

Glossop, C. W. H.

Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

Gluckstein. Louis Halle

Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

Wallace, Captain D. E, (Hornsey)

Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

Meller, Richard James

Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

Goff, Sir Park

Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

Goldie, Noel B.

Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

Molson. A. Hugh Elsdals

Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

Gower, Sir Robert

Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)

Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)

Moreing, Adrian C.

Wedderburn, Henry James Sorymgeour-

Granville, Edgar

Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

Weymouth, Viscount

Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

Graves, Marjorie

Morrison, William Shephard

Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

Grimston, R. V.

Muirhead, Major A. J.

Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)

Gunston, Captain D. W.

Munro, Patrick

Wills, Wilfrid D.

Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

Nail-Cain, Hon. Ronald

Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

Hales, Harold K.

Nation, Brigadler-General J. J. H.

Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

Hammersley, Samuel S.

Nunn, William

Womersley, Walter James

Hanley, Dennis A.

O'Connor, Terence James

Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G.A.

Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

Harris, Sir Percy

Patrick, Colln M.

Worthington, Dr. John V.

Hartland, George A.

Peat, Charles U.

Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks)

Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

Patherick, M.

Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllit'n)

Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

pike, Cecil F.

Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir

Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

Pownall, Sir Assheton

George Penny.

NOES.

Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

Cripps, Sir Stafford

Grundy, Thomas W.

Attlee, Clement Richard

Daggar, George

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Banfield, John William

Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

Hicks, Ernest George

Batey, Joseph

Edwards, Charles

Hirst, George Henry

Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

Cove, William G.

Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

826

827

Logan, David Gilbert

Parkinson, John Allen

Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

Lunn, William

Price, Gabriel

Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

McEntee, Valentino L.

Salter, Dr. Alfrtd

Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

Maxton, James

Thorne, William James

Mllner, Major James

Williams, David (Swansea, East)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

Mr. C. Macdonald and Mr. Tinke

PROTECTION OF ANIMALS (AMEND MENT) (No. 2) BILL,
" to amend section three of the Protection of Animals Act, 1911," presented by Sir Robert Gower; supported by Major-General Sir Alfred Knox, Lieut.-Colonel Moore, Mr. Lovat-Fraser, Captain Erskine-Bolst, Mr. David Grenfell, Sir Cooper Rawson, Sir George Jones, and Mr. Harbord; to be read a Second time upon Friday, and to be printed. [Bill 68.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  HOUSING (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL.
  As amended, considered.

  CLAUSE 1. —(Discontinuance of certain subsidies under 13 and 14 Geo. 5. c. 24 and 14 and 15 Geo. 5. c. 35.)
  4.11 p.m.
  Mr. HICKS: I beg to move, in page 1, line 19, after the word "December," to insert the words:
  " or that substantial expenditure had been incurred in the acquisition of land for housing."
  In the Committee stage last week we asked the Minister to accept an Amendment for advancing the date from 7th December until 1st July, 1933. We thought then that there had not been adequate alternative arrangements made for house building, and I still feel personally very uneasy about the matter. We, therefore, begged the Minister to give himself greater freedom by accepting the date which we mentioned. The Minister, apparently, was not willing to be favourably impressed by our appeal to extend the period beyond 7th December, although at that time we stated very definitely that it was still within his prorogative and right to withhold his approval from schemes which he felt inclined to reject. I listened with interest to a reply which the Minister gave, to a Private Notice Question to-day regarding the setting up of a committee to assist him in this particular work, and I was interested to hear that arrangements were being made to advise upon the establishment of public utility societies, as to their wisdom or otherwise, in order to assist the Government to get on with the housing programme. I have no objection at all to such a course, and I shall be very interested to find what is the degree of public response, not only to the suggestion but perhaps even the recommendation.
  The definite and specific reason of this Amendment is to give the Minister greater time and a bigger range of opportunity for sanctioning the subsidy on housing schemes. I am very apprehensive that there will be a very stiff gap between the period when this Bill becomes law and the resumption of
  834
  housing activities in this country. It is for these reasons that I want to give the Minister this greater power. If the public utility societies come into existence, I am unable to understand, and perhaps the Minister will help me to understand, how those societies will be able to borrow the money from the building societies, and be able to build the houses. I am unable to see how the building societies can lend money at 4 or 4½ per cent. when they themselves are generally committed at the present time to paying 4 per cent. to people who have stock in the building societies. They are committed to pay 4 per cent. without tax, and it is generally understood that something like 1 per cent. is required for general administration expenses. A public utility society might be able to borrow this money outside the building societies, and there are people who, if they knew that the money was being raised specifically for housing, would have sympathy with the purpose, and possibly would lend the money at a lower rate. There must be many municipal authorities that in years past have purchased land for the specific purpose of house building. They have laid out the land, constructed roads and put in drainage in anticipation, of a general building programme for which they would be able to get financial support from the Government. The Borough of Woolwich, one-half of which I represent, sent to me a letter and begged me to bring this matter forward. They also wrote to the Minister as follows:
  " As you are aware, the Woolwich Borough Council has purchased, with your approval, an estate known as the Middle Park Housing Estate, upon which approximately 2,200 houses are proposed to be erected, and of this number the Ministry has approved for subsidy purposes schemes of 400, 4, and 388, a total of 792, leaving approximately a further 1,408 houses to be erected on this Estate."
  They further say:
  " The Estate was purchased by the borough council on the assumption that the houses to be erected would benefit by the subsidy provided for by the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924."
  I presume that Woolwich is not the only borough council which has purchased land on a similar assumption. The Woolwich Council say that they would have been prepared to have accepted the modifications of the 1924 Act which have taken place from time to time. They go on:

  835
  "It is a serious matter, for the borough to be left with this large area of land undeveloped, and in respect of which loan charges are payable for its acquisition, and with no prospect of receiving any Government grant towards the houses which will be constructed."
  I am very glad to see the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) in his place, and I am sure that he will be only too pleased to support me in this request by speech, if not later on in the Lobby. The position is a serious one for many councils. The sites have been laid out, plans prepared and everything made ready for building. I can only presume that, in many cases it has been the industrial depression which has prevented municipal authorities from pestering the. Minister with greater persistency, awl that if industry hard been running normally the requests for housing assistance would have come in to the Minister at a much greater rate. But industry and trade have been so uncertain and irregular that municipalities have held their hands. Yet as an indication of their intention to provide houses they have taken adequate steps at other places as well as at Woolwich. That the Minister should take to himself the power proposed seems to me a practical suggestion. If he found that the applications made to him were unfair, he has still the power to withhold his sanction. I beg him to believe us that we think the gap which will be created between the passing of this Bill and the development of housing activity in another way, is a very big gap. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to take these powers in order that he may have an opportunity of rendering assistance to those municipal authorities which have made substantial expenditure in the acquisition of land for housing. Failing such assistance, I am certain that the progress of house building will be very miserable indeed.
  4.27 p.m.
  Mr. McENTEE: I would add my word to that of the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment, and my plea to the Minister to give most serious consideration to this matter. I can assure him that Woolwich is not the only district where serious difficulties may arise in the local council in connection with land left on their hands as a consequence of the Government's change of policy. In my own area and that immediately surrounding it, we have land, some of
  836
  which we purchased during the War period at the direct instigation of the Government of that time. The Government of that time said that they desired local authorities to purchase land for large housing schemes, to make up the wastage of war time and to try to overtake the need for housing. We purchased the land, a very considerable number of acres. The same policy was carried on by successive Governments. The land was bought under conditions entirely different from those of to-day. In many areas the price that was paid could not be secured to-day if that land had to be sold in the ordinary market, or in a forced market.
  In the case of some local authorities a penny rate brings in very little, and a comparatively small loss on the sale of land might mean a considerable addition to the local rates. Apart from that, a forced sale is always a bad sale. If it became known that the policy of the Ministry of Health would compel local authorities to sell the land that they held for the purpose of building houses, it is obvious that those who would be willing to purchase would not pay as good a price as ordinarily they would pay. If there are losses on the sale, who is to bear those losses? I do not think the Government will come along and say, "A previous Government, our own predecessors, induced you by circulars that they sent to you to purchase land for housing. Government policy has changed, and now we are trying to compel you to sell that land. As a consequence of the change in public policy there will be a loss on the sale of the land, and the Government are quite willing to meet you in that loss and to make a grant from the Exchequer." I would like to believe that the Government would do that.
  My own area is one of the areas affected. It is true that there are many other uses to which the land there may be put by the local authority, and I am wondering whether the Government would sanction those other uses if application were made to them. I have known of some of this housing land being wanted for other purposes by the local authority, but we had the greatest difficulty in getting the Minister to sanction the change of purpose in the utilisation of the land. If we are to be compelled to use the land for some purpose other

  837
  than the purpose for which we bought it, will Government sanction be easy to obtain, or are we to be put to the trouble and expense of very protracted negotiations with the Ministry and other bodies in making the transfer? The Minister ought to give serious attention to the matters raised by the Amendment.
  4.29 p.m.
  Sir PERCY HARRIS: This is a comparatively narrow but still an important point. It depends largely on the interpretation of the powers, the elasticity and the latitude given to the Minister in the withdrawal of the subsidy. I understand the Mover of the Amendment wants a broader interpretation. Estates have been bought, some of them many years ago, for the development of housing. I have in mind particularly two in London. I mention them not because I want to take London as standing alone, but merely as an example of what has happened all over the country. In London just after the War—early in 1919—at the instigation of the Government, the county council went in for a very big undertaking which became known as the Becontree Estate. This is an estate covering 3,000 acres and its development has been a very slow business. It is by no means completed even now. Very large sums of money have been spent in setting up a complicated organisation. Instead of developing the estate under an ordinary contract there has been a super-contractor, the firm of Messrs. Willis and Company acting as agents for the county council, and many thousands of pounds have been spent in plans, machinery and organisation. One of the difficulties in connection with that estate has been the sewerage, in relation to Barking and various drainage areas, and a large sum has been spent in sewering.
  What I would like to know is, will the Minister allow to rank for subsidy schemes which have been outlined but which have not been submitted to him in detail, that is to say, with tenders, quantities and so forth? There is another estate on a smaller scale, the St. Helier Estate. A large part of it is practically untouched. In that case land was bought with the approval of the Minister for housing purposes and laid out and planned with roads, parks and gardens. Are we to allow the rest of that estate to remain high and dry without any sub-
  838
  sidy? The Minister may say, with some reason, that the local authority can do the job itself out of the rates. If he says so he has a higher opinion of the local authorities in these matters than I have. Local authorities are inclined to say, "If we are to do a job of this kind there must be a partnership between the local authority and the State."
  I would like the Minister to say either that he can accept the Amendment or, alternatively, that his powers are to be interpreted as including the power of helping in the case of uncompleted estates. That would be a great assistance to local authorities throughout the country. The right hon. Gentleman is an optimist about housing. He has put his trust in the building societies and the private builder. He may be right. Time alone will show. Some people believe that with the large amount of money which is lying idle it is possible that the building societies and the private builders will come into operation and that ultimately there will be a large output of suitable houses to let. But before that takes place there is likely to be an interregnum and that is the real danger. It would be a great stimulus to local authorities who have bought estates with the approval of the Department but have not developed those estates if they knew that such cases would be entitled to the same consideration as cases of actual contracts and schemes for the construction of houses, submitted to the Minister.
  4.35 p.m.
  Colonel CHAPMAN: I ask the Minister to accept this Amendment, but not solely for the reasons which have so far been put forward, although I am in agreement with the idea of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) that there will be an interregnum between the present provision of houses and the provision of houses under this Measure. There, however, is a type of house which up to now has not been dealt with and that is the small house for aged persons. Under the 1930 Act power was given to build two-roomed houses. Up to that time all parties seemed to be against building any two-roomed houses. There is at present in mining constituencies an urgent demand for houses of that type. In Durham for many years there has been a remarkable organisation called the Aged Miners Homes. Houses were built by

  839
  the joint efforts of owners and miners and were let to old people so that after their working days they might spend the evening of their lives in comfort. The crisis through which the mining industry is passing has prevented the extension of the work of providing those homes and has also made it necessary to reduce the pensions payable to these old people.
  The Amendment is after all only permissive. Under it, the Minister might grant permission to build these houses and if the right hon. Gentleman accepts it an opportunity will be given to municipalities to provide two-roomed houses for aged persons where such houses are found to be necessary. I ask the Minister to consider the enormous impetus which would be given to the re-housing of the people by such a step. If those houses were provided many aged persons could go out of the three-roomed or four-roomed houses which they at present occupy. At present, in order to occupy three-roomed or four-roomed houses those aged people in many cases have to go to the public assistance committees for an augmentation of their pensions, as a pension of 25s. a week is not sufficient to enable them to pay the rents of such houses. It might be possible, however, for those old people to live on their pensions and pay smaller rents. I submit that on those grounds the Minister ought to consider the Amendment favourably.
  4.37 p.m.
  The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young): I think I ought to clear the ground at the outset by explaining to the hon. and gallant Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Colonel Chapman) that this Amendment would have no effect whatever upon the powers of the Minister in connection with the building of small houses for aged persons. The Amendment only relates to the power of the Minister to accept plans proposed by local authorities in respect of land which they already have in band. I am unable to accept the Amendment which is very much too wide in its extent. I recognise the motives which have led the hon. Members opposite to propose it and the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) to support it. They are anxious to obtain a further extension of what we have been calling in these
  840
  Debates the buffer or the means of tiding over the transition period. I have admitted freely the desirability of having a good buffer in this respect and I have taken measures to secure it by the Amendment which was accepted during the Committee stage. What I have to represent to the House to-day is that the course which we took then was the right course for securing such a buffer as is required and that this Amendment would be a wrong way.
  Consider the case of the local authorities who are in possession of land intended for housing estates. A local authority requires that land either for its immediate needs or for its future needs. If it wants the land for its immediate needs there is ample provision in the Amendment accepted during the Committee stage for making sure that the land shall be used for that purpose. The reply to the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green is that I shall be competent to consider the schemes which he has under consideration, if they answer the test established the other day. That test is indicated in the words which were inserted in the Bill:
  " Provided that if the 'Minister is satisfied that proposals for providing or promoting the provision of houses under those Acts had been prepared and were substantially ready to be submitted to him before the said seventh day of December, he may, subject to the approval of the Treasury, treat the proposals for the purposes of this Section, as if they had been submitted to him before that date."
  That is the reasonable test. That relates the proposal to the fact of whether or not it is required for the immediate housing needs of the neighbourhood. But the question of whether or not the housing authority has already purchased land in order to provide houses, has no relation to the immediate needs of the neighbourhood. It may be that a local authority has purchased for years ahead, and that it has no need and will have no need, for many years to come, for the houses. If the House agrees to that distinction I think they will see that the Amendment is an unpractical one which would give an unseasonably wide extension to the powers for still admitting certain schemes to subsidy provided in the Bill as it now stands.
  The buffer to which reference has been made consists of three springs. First there is the large number of houses

  841
  which have already been approved for subsidy. The House may not be aware that no fewer than 70,000 houses have been already approved for subsidy which should be complete during or shortly after the calendar year 1933.The second spring of the buffer is the power of the Minister still to approve for subsidy schemes which had been prepared and were substantially ready before 7th December. My submission is that in those two ways ample provision is made for the immediate needs of localities. All that remains are the future needs. The land which is already in the possession of local authorities for future needs is not going to be wasted. There will still be the power of the local authority to make use of that land for housing purposes without a subsidy.
  The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green appeared to pour scorn on the idea of housing schemes being carried out by a local authority without a subsidy. I established, I think, by the figures which I gave on the Second Reading that it is now possible for local authorities, without a subsidy, to produce houses which can be let at rents within a few pence of the standard normal rents at which houses could be let under a subsidy. In these circumstances there is no insurmountable economic obstacle between the local authorities and the construction of houses without subsidy, and in that way they can make use of the land which has been purchased for future housing needs. That is the substance of the matter. There is first, the provision enabling us to take in schemes which were prepared and substantially ready. That is, as regards present needs. Then as regards future needs the local authorities will still be able to use this land for housing schemes without subsidy.
  Lastly, an essential reason against admitting the Amendment is that it would practically establish an indefinite extension of the period during which subsidised building would be still on the tapis, in competition with unsubsidised building, and thereby we should be getting the worst of both worlds; we should be damping down the local authorities, and we should still be keeping the obstacle in the way of the private builder.
  4.46 p.m.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: I regard with the deepest regret the speech which we have just heard from the Minister. I am not surprised, but I am sorry. The right hon. Gentleman has treated us to one of his usual, quite irrelevant, speeches. The point of this Amendment is simple. Ever since 1919 Minister of Health after Minister of Health—I believe the right hon. Gentleman is the sixth—has approved the purchase of land by local authorities for the building of working-class houses. For 13 years that Ministerial approval has been given to applications by local authorities on the assumption that, once the land was bought, local authorities would be enabled, because for 13 years they have had State assistance, to build the houses. The right hon. Gentleman says that if we accept this Amendment, it means an indefinite extension of the principle of the subsidy. Had this been a commercial venture, and had it been an implied term of the contract that when local authorities purchased land for the building of houses there were to be sums provided by the State, it would have been regarded as dishonourable if the contract were broken after land had been purchased.
  The plain position to-day is this, that there are thousands of acres of land in England and Wales purchased, at different times since the end of the War, with the object of building working-class houses. That land was bought, not because local authorities wanted to make a great experiment in municipal enterprise, but in order to meet what they knew to be the housing needs of their own people; and under various Acts of Parliament they have been able to proceed with different kinds of public aid. I have not got the figures, so that I cannot speak in terms of actual figures, but any submission is that a very large proportion of that land was bought at a time during the period after the War, when land values were much higher than they are now. That land is now to be left with the local authorities. The right hon. Gentleman tells us that they can use it still for the building of houses, but if that land was bought at £150 an acre, and if now, because of the general slump, land is worth only £50 an acre, how are the local authorities to compete witch the private builder? It is utterly

  843
  impossible. It is asking the local authorities to undertake a task which is quite beyond their power.
  The right hon. Gentleman referred to a buffer and said that we had spoken about a buffer. Let me inform him that nobody in this House but himself has ever spoken about a buffer in this connection, and I was not sure in what sense he meant the term until he said that it had three springs in it. The first spring was that 70,000 houses had already been approved at the end of last year, or when the Bill was introduced, and will be built during the present calendar year. The Bill has nothing whatever to do with those houses. They were approved under existing legislation, and, if I may say so, I can take credit myself for those 70,000 houses. That is not the buffer, it is not even a spring of the buffer, it is not anything but a fact Which would have gone on and been realised, irrespective of this Bill.
  The right hon. Gentleman falls back on the Amendment which he accepted in Committee, dealing with schemes substantially ready, and he says that that gives him elasticity. I say what I said in the Committee stage: I mistrust his use of this power to be elastic. Had he been prepared to make a firm definition and put it in the Bill, I should have understood that he meant to carry it out, but these vague words about schemes which are substantially ready leave him, with all the influence of an economy Government behind him, to interpret the word "substantially." Where land is already in the ownership of local authorities, there is surely a case, even if this National Government continues its inglorious career for a long time, for honouring past contracts, seeing that successive Ministers have approved the purchase of land for the building of working-class houses under the Housing Acts.
  This is not a Housing Act; this is an abrogation of responsibility for Housing Acts, and local authorities are morally entitled to look forward to a fulfilment of the undertaking given by successive Ministers in the past that houses built for working-class occupants shall be used for that purpose. I would suggest that there must be many Members representing constituencies where local authorities have bought land in the expectation that they would be permitted to continue their
  844
  building programmes, because they could not build all the houses at once. My hon. Friend the member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) is here, and I am sorry the right hon. Member for West Woolwich (Sir K. Wood) has fled at this point. Ah, there he is. I am only sorry he is not taking part in this Debate, because there is this great developing area of Woolwich. After infinite difficulty, during the time when I was in office, Woolwich succeeded in obtaining a very large estate for the building of about 2,500 houses. There was no indication then, and indeed the situation then gave no inkling of the possibility, that there would be a National Government, so-called, which would cut the cackle and get rid of its past responsibilities. That was perhaps an unfortunate term.
  Woolwich has built about one-third of the houses which it intended to build on that estate. Is Woolwich to sell that land? Is it to incur very substantial expenditure on utilising that land for other purposes, without any kind of State assistance? Is it to be assumed that Woolwich did not require that land for housing needs? Woolwich is faced with the dilemma of either trying to build houses on the land without a subsidy, or possibly selling that land at existing prices below what they might have paid for it. The estate so far consists of houses built under proper organisation and under proper conditions, and Woolwich may have to allow that magnificent site to be handed over to the private builder, to build houses of any sort or kind, subject to the very vague restrictions which the Minister says he may perhaps exercise and utilise.
  I submit that this is a very reasonable Amendment and one which the House might very well accept. I imagine that if hon. Members could for the moment get rid, I will not say of their party loyalty, because hon. Members opposite are such a mixed crew to-day, but of the fear of the Whip. If the Whips were not to be put on in this Division, and if hon. Members could vote according to their conscience, they would know that it was a matter of elementary justice that local authorities which have purchased land for housing purposes on the assumption, sustained for 13 years, that there would be public assistance, should

  845
  be allowed to continue their work. I hope the House will accept the Amendment and reject the Minister's advice.
  4.58 p.m.
  Sir FRANCIS FREMANTLE: The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks), in putting his case for the Amendment very moderately, said that all housing enthusiasts would agree in asking for this Amendment. It naturally appeals to many on this side, who do not give to hon. Members opposite any priority as regards their keenness on housing for the working classes, but he is not right in saying that all of us would agree with the Amendment. I regret that the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) should have appealed to Members from the point of view of their heart to vote for this Amendment, and should have said that if the Whips were removed, we on this side would largely go over to the Amendment. That is just where enthusiasts, with all their striving, fail, that they let their heart get the better of their head.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: When did I say that I appealed to your heart? I appealed to your reason.
  Sir F. FREMANTLE: No, that is just what the right hon. Gentleman did not do, and he will see in the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow that he wound up with an impassioned appeal, as usual, to our heart and enthusiasm, not to our reason.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: To your conscience. Is that feeling?
  Sir F. FREMANTLE: Conscience it was. We have to look, however, at the business side of this matter.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: Ah!
  Sir F. FREMANTLE: The right hon. Gentleman seems to think that we ought not. to look at the business side, but that is just the difference between Members on that side and Members on this side. The right hon. Gentleman is quite consistent in taking the line that this country can afford anything that it wants, which he said on a famous occasion. That is why he and his Government brought the country to the brink of ruin, and that is why the Government turned them out. We say that money is simply a means of barter, and every individual who really knows what the responsibilities of money
  846
  are, knows that we must deal with this matter from a business point of view. We have to look at this Amendment from the business point of view. I think the right hon. Member for Wakefield recognises that his argument about land bought by local 'authorities, which he thinks should have been allowed to develop under the existing conditions and with existing subsidies, fails: The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) referred tip the two estates of the London County Council, which will serve as an illustration. I was responsible for buying the Becontree Estate on behalf of the London County Council and devising a scheme for 24,000 houses.
  Mr. HICKS: A very good work.
  Sir F. FREMANTLE: It was a very good piece of work on the part of the London County Council. Had the county council a right to say that, because the Government had passed the purchase of that land under the Addison subsidies, those subsidies should be continued for all time until the 24,000 houses had been erected? Of course not. Sir Alfred Mond came into office, and he had to use the knife and cut down the subsidies. Then the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced his housing scheme in. 1923 with a fresh scheme of subsidies at a much lower rate. Was there an outcry that the London County Council were being unjustly treated or that housing was being put back? When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield was Minister, he on his own showing ought to have restored the subsidies to the rate of the Addison subsidies. As he did not do so, he showed that there was a case for lowering them, and that does away with his argument that if land were purchased when the subsidies were being paid they should be continued until the land was developed. There is a point on which we must all agree as housing enthusiasts. The policy has now been changed from a policy of subsidies to a policy of no subsidies. It may be right or wrong, but we all ought to be able to join together in saying that we will make the best use we can of the new policy. We must have a cut and dried line where we change from one policy to the other and where the new organisation for private enterprise will come into force.

  847
  If the London County Council, the Metropolitan borough councils and the other councils round London were still allowed to think that for the next three years they can go on developing with: the existing subsidy on the estates that they have purchased, private enterprise would say that they could not yet compete with the local authorities, and it would defer the day when private enterprise could come into the market and do their work. Having once decided rightly or wrongly to change our policy we must bring it into force as soon as possible for the sake of housing development. I hope that private enterprise will be able to rise to the requirements with the lower cost of money and possibly the lower cost of building, and that we shall be able to get the lower rented houses which we all desire. There is a case for saying that the cut should not be a straight line, because we must meet the needs of the organisation and the plans that have already been prepared. The Bill meets that point, and the Minister has to be trusted to interpret his powers wisely so as to get the result that we want and to encourage private enterprise to come back. Under the Clause as it stands we can get what is required by the Amendment, and no further extension is required. Therefore, I as a housing enthusiast shall vote against it.
  5.6 p.m.
  Mr. PRICE: The hon. and gallant Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) said that we have endeavoured to get support for the Amendment by appealing to the hearts of Members on the other side. I shall not trouble to do that because I have been convinced since I have been here that they have no hearts. I do not think, either, that it is any use appealing to their reason, for I doubt whether they understand reason. I will endeavour, therefore, to put the case for the Amendment from the point of view of business. The Amendment endeavours to draw a line of demarcation on which the subsidy should be paid. In the development of housing by local authorities, it would be fair to suggest that in nearly every case the councils, whether made up of Conservatives or not, had the idea that they were going to make provision for the needs of their districts. It would be interesting to
  848
  know whether the Minister would be prepared to accept his own qualification and fix that as the line of demarcation. He says that councils may have bought land far in excess of the housing needs of the district. If he will take the needs of the districts as the standard, we shall be satisfied. In many cases streets have been laid out at tremendous expenses by local authorities in the firm belief that they would be allowed to continue to meet the needs of their districts, even on a subsidy lower than when the land was bought. We say that the housing needs of the people cannot yet he met by private enterprise at a rent which will fit the income and the wage of the poor men who need houses. We ask, therefore, that a reasonable line of demarcation shall be laid down so that the local authorities will be safeguarded against any loss in the layout of the land which was undertaken with the full encouragement of the Minister, and that houses should be allowed to be built under the existing subsidy until the estates are completed. In reply to a question put by an hon. Friend with regard to small houses for old age pensioners, the Minister said, I understood, that that type of house could still go on.
  Sir H. YOUNG: What I said was that it had no relation to this Amendment.
  Mr. PRICE: It has this relation to the Amendment, that houses of the type which are provided for old age pensioners receive subsidy assistance. Will they receive it now? I belong to an authority which has had an application turned down for the building of small houses for old age pensioners, and we are anxious to know whether the reply of the Minister still obtains and that we shall be able to continue this type of house with subsidy assistance. If not, local authorities will not be in a position to build such houses at a suitable rent. We are not satisfied with the reply of the Minister to this Amendment. We should be prepared to accept the needs of a district as the criterion for we should be able to prove to the satisfaction of the Minister that there is still any amount of need in every part of the country for working-class houses at reasonable rents. The attitude of the Minister is not to develop houses for the poor underpaid and low wage worker, but to retard the building of the type of

  849
  house that is most needed and that will certainly not be built under private enterprise and the building societies.
  5.11 p.m.
  Sir WILFRID SUGDEN: I have listened with amusement as well as interest to the plea of those who desire to protect the landowners, and I am carefully taking note of it ready for the time when the exploitation and the spoliation of the legitimate development of land comes before the House, when I hope we shall have substantial support from the Opposition benches. I desire particularly to claim that common sense and sympathy can go together, and I want to say in support of the Minister that what is being done under this Bill will result in a saving to the pockets of the ratepayers and the taxpayers, and will produce the goods at a price which the man in the street and the poor working man can afford to pay. I have some knowledge, as an unimportant town councillor and as one with some experience of the county council, of the devious ways of local government in a county and a town which have some sort of standing. I have no recollection of any case where the county council. or the town council, which has the most public spirited men upon it, can compete with private enterprise and deliver the goods. Local authorities if they have made unwise land purchases must cut their losses and in the long run it will pay them as trustees of the ratepayers. They may sometimes have purchased land which is not always of the value which a private individual would have paid for it, and they would do better to cut their losses. I repeat I hope the House will remember that sympathy and common sense go together and that the Government stands for both.
  5.14 p.m.
  Mr. BANFIELD: We have listened to an interesting and amusing speech. The hon. Member for West Leyton (Sir W. Sugden) said how pleased he was that the Opposition benches are supporting the landowners. I want to draw the hon. Member's attention to the fact that the landowners in the present instance are the local authorities. We shall always have the greatest possible pleasure in supporting landowners who are local authorities, and in view of the hon. Member's speech, we hope to get his
  850
  sympathy and support on the appropriate occasion. It has been said that by this Amendment we are appealing simply to the heart of the House and not to its reason. The hon. Member for West Leyton spoke about sympathy. This House has always expressed sympathy with housing. It is the best place in the world in which to get sympathy; you can get buckets of it for nothing. The argument that private enterprise could provide better and cheaper houses than the subsidised houses of the local authorities is absolutely amazing. Why has the subsidy been necessary all these years? Simply because private enterprise refused to touch the working-class house, seeing there was no profit in it. From what has been said, it might be, thought there was something explosive about this Amendment, something in it akin to Bolshevism. But this is all the Amendment says:
  " that substantial expenditure had been incurred in the acquisition of land for houses."
  That is not unreasonable to insert in the Bill. The Minister takes his stand on the wording of the Clause, where-it says that he may admit housing proposals if he is satisfied:
  " that proposals for providing or promoting the provision of houses under those Acts had been prepared and were substantially ready to be submitted to him."
  Under the Clause however, the Minister will be the sole judge of what is meant by "substantially ready." Local authorities who took a long-range view of housing, felt they were encouraged to embark on big housing schemes, and incurred considerable expenditure on the purchase of land, will feel that they have been let down and left with land which, perhaps, they can realise only at a loss. Contrary to the view of the Minister, I am certain that the effect of this Bill will be to discourage local authorities from embarking on further housing schemes. They will say, "We have no security for the money we are going to spends and we may be left to bear substantial losses." If this Amendment were accepted, and it were possible for an authority which had already purchased land to go oh with its housing plans, we might; I think set up a new standard of rents. While it is true that thousands of houses have been erected by local authorities, the fact remains that year by year, and even month

  851
  by month, it becomes increasingly difficult for people to pay the rents which local authorities demand for those houses. In view of the ever-increasing reductions in the wages of people, has not the time come when the subsidy might be made to achieve some real purpose by, being used in such a, way as to enable the local authorities to let the houses at considerable lower rents than hitherto?
  I am certain that the Minister is too optimistic in believing that either private enterprise or the schemes of the building societies will provide the necessary houses. I am a member of a building society. A building society has, first of all, to consider its liabilities towards its members, its promises made to them that their claims for houses shall come first, and I very much doubt whether it will be found that building societies are going to provide all this money about which we hear so much. I know that the Minister has declared against the Amendment, and I presume that the House will proceed, as usual, to put the rubber stamp on whatever the Minister says is the policy of the Government': but I want to make it clear that we stand by this Amendment. We believe the Amendment would be a considerable help, we believe that by its means we could keep faith in local authorities, and we believe, further, that if faith is not kept with them the electors in many industrial constituences where the local authorities have incurred considerable expense for land will be asking seriously why the interests of the ratepayers have not been better safeguarded.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. PIKE: The right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) let the political cat out of the bag in the course of his speech. The strongest point he made in connection with this Amendment turned out eventually to be the weakest point. He asked whether it was right and proper to expect a local authority which had purchased land at, say, £150 an acre in the days of dear prices, to have to part with that land at a loss when values had fallen to, say, £50 an acre. The fall in the market value of land was the main reason in his submission why local authorities should be covered by this Amendment. In view of the financial position of the country, it is
  852
  rather premature of the party opposite to ask the Government to hold themselves responsible for financial failures in local administration during the past 10, 15 or 20 years. Further, I think it is very unjust that we should be asked to do something by which local authorities, irrespective of the conditions that may arise in the future, would be guaranteed against loss on any of their undertakings, whether in the immediate past or the immediate future. I could not help wondering whether this Amendment would have been moved if the market values of land had risen. In that case I think it would not have been thought to be necessary to bring it forward. I do not think a local authority should ask this House to become responsible for any mistakes made in the past over the price paid for land, whether for housing or for other purposes.
  It is only an assumption on the part of hon. Members opposite that all the land purchased by local authorities in the days of high prices was intended for houses, though that provides a very good reason for putting forward this Amendment. In my humble opinion any land purchased in the days of high prices for the housing of the poor would by now be covered with houses and not be a site for future houses. The hon. Member for Hems-worth (Mr. Price) said private enterprise could not possibly be expected to provide houses at rents which, with the rates, would suit the pockets of the poor. At any rate private enterprise has done it before, and I am convinced that if it were freed from the harness and strappings of Government interference it would do it again. If we continue to harness down the activities of private enterprise we cannot at the same time expect it to produce that solution of the housing problem which we want. I am satisfied that the Minister's reply adequately covered the situation, and fully justifies the House in voting against the Amendment if the Opposition force hon. Members to go into the Lobby.
  5.26 p.m.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: We shall most certainly force hon. Members into the Lobbies. The hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Pike) was occupied for a few weeks in telling the electors in the Rotherham Division all about the glories of private enterprise—
  Mr. PIKE: The Rotherham electors would not allow us to tell them anything.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: In any case, the hon. Member was in that division for two or three weeks, and I happen to know that he is quite capable of making himself heard in spite of any noise from the put-skirts of the meeting. I can pay him the compliment that he knows how to deal with a crowd. He told the Rotherham electors all about the glories of the National Government and the achievements of private enterprise, but, all the same, they did not feel disposed to accept the hon. Member's logic, and returned the hon. Member who now represents that division. There is one thing I would like to say about the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division and the wonderful achievements of private enterprise. The electors of the Attercliffe Division know what private enterprise has done for them in housing, and if a volcano were to destroy a good part of the houses in that division I think there would be few to shed a tear. If the electors of the Attercliffe Division, looking round upon the achievements of private enterprise in that division, accept the hon. Member's view about the efficiency of private enterprise, they will accept almost anything on earth. However, that is not the point.
  The real point is that the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) clearly showed that Government after Government have encouraged local authorities to purchase land and erect houses for the working class, and it is perfectly true to say that for a long period after the War private enterprise made no effort at all to meet the needs of the working-class population. Despite the apparent failure of the first Government housing scheme, we had another scheme, passed by a Conservative Government, in 1923, and yet a further scheme in 1924; and even in 1928, after three or four years of Conservative Government, the State still continued to pay approximately £9 per house for houses erected for the working class—a clear acknowledgement that private enterprise was either unwilling or unable to meet the needs of working people. If the hon. Member disagrees with the Chancellor of the Exchequer perhaps he will talk to him in private, and the Chaneellor will tell him all about it. The fact of the
  854
  matter is that even with the reduction of the subsidy by £1 10s. per annum, there is still the acknowledgment of the fact that private enterprise, over a certain part of the country, will not meet the known and urgent need for housing in those areas.
  I reside, as does the hon. Gentleman, in a working-class area, perhaps not so thickly populated, with houses that are like rows of Grenadier Guards on parade, one after another. It is one of those districts that workmen live in because they have to work there. They certainly would not live there were they not obliged to do so because they work in those neighbourhoods. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health will remember that I referred to the case of Mexborough Urban District Council. Quite recently that authority purchased land on which to build approximately 200 houses. They erected some of them, but they did not build them all in two or three months. They were building their houses in blocks over two or three years, and they were developing the site at a rate with which they thought the district could cope conveniently. The applicants were there, and the authority knew that the need existed. Even in that small area there is at the present time a demand for new houses from approximately 700 applicants. The authority were about to erect 134 more houses, on land purchased, with the consent and the approval of the Ministry, exclusively for houses. Unless the right hon. Gentleman stretches the application of the words embodied in Clause 1, it may conceivably be that this local authority will be denied the right to erect houses on land which was bought exclusively for that purpose quite recently.
  The hon. Member for Attercliffe, or any hon. Member, may say that in the London area, where houses are erected in blocks of 1,000 or 5,000, private enterprise may intervene and fulfil the function of house building, but in purely working-class areas, where labour conditions are not equal, private enterprise simply will not meet the need. In the area of the local authority to which I have referred, a. penny rate collects about £180. The authority cannot afford to have land standing idle. If they were

  855
  to sell it—I am not concerned about any loss of money that might result from their selling it, if they could—private enterprise would not build on it. Private enterprise will not build hundreds of thousands of houses to let to working-class people. Consequently, unless something is done to make as elastic as possible the words embodied in Clause 1, such areas as the one I represent—I have mentioned Mexborough, but I believe that Greasborough is another case—will be denied the right to develop finally the plots of land which they purchased exclusively for the purpose of building working-class dwellings.
  The right hon. Gentleman ought to tell us, before we proceed to a Division, whether in a case such as I have mentioned—where a local authority purchased land a couple of years ago and decided to build some 200 or 230 houses, and built 70 first and further batches of 70 later on, and is employing its building operatives continuously—under the terms of the Bill the proposals for the last batch of houses were not substantially ready when this Bill was introduced on 7th December? There is a very definite fear on the part of certain local authorities, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to tell us, where land has been purchased so recently and where the Ministry has had a definite intimation that houses were to be erected, that in no such case the
  local authority will be denied the right and privilege of building on such land, in order to meet the needs of the working-class population.
  5.38 p.m.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: I am rather at a loss to know why the Minister should be so definite in refusing this Amendment. As I read it, the Amendment is purely permissive in character, and does not say that the Minister shall continue these schemes, but that he may continue them. When the Minister was replying he made the point that if he accepted this Amendment it would mean an indefinite prolongation of the subsidy. I do not see that that can be, and I would ask him to reconsider his decision on that point. There is much to be said for the completion of schemes which are at the present time only partly developed; from many points of view it would be desirable that local authorities should complete their schemes. I cannot see that the acceptance of this Amendment would make any vital difference to the Amendment which the Minister conceded on the Committee stage. I cannot accept the contention of the Minister that this Amendment would indefinitely prolong the subsidy. If he thought that undue advantages were being taken, he would have the right within the Bill to refuse.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 52; Noes, 254.

  CLAUSE 2.—(Power o f Minister to reimburse part o f losses sustained under guarantees to building and other societies.)
  5.45 p.m.
  Sir P. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 2, line 10, to leave out the word "intended," and to insert instead thereof the words:
  "for which a satisfactory guarantee has been given that they are."
  The object of this Amendment is to provide that, as soon as a builder has decided that houses which he is about to build are intended to be let to persons of the working classes, he shall show his good faith by giving a satisfactory guarantee to the building society, the local authority, and the State that the houses are so to be used. We know it is said that the way to Hell is paved with good intentions. I have no doubt that those builders who will go cap in hand to the local authorities and the building societies to get the necessary financial assistance will be inspired by good intentions, but, from what I know of the custom of the trade, the habit of private builders who build the cheaper kind of property is to turn over their money rapidly. Once the buildings are constructed, they sell them. It may be argued with some reason that, as long as the houses are built, it does not matter very much what becomes of them, but recent reports show that, as regards houses for sale, the supply is at present reasonable. As I understand it, the reason why the Minister is co-operating with the building societies is that the real problem is to get houses to let to the ordinary weekly wage earner who has comparatively low wages, and who cannot tackle the purchase of a house.
  There is nothing in the Bill at present —I have read it very carefully, and it is very precise—to secure the future use of the houses when once they are constructed. They may be used for any purpose. They may be converted to commercial purposes, they may be sold, they may be let to any section of the community. I suppose the real guarantee, if I may use the word, that they will be let to the working classes is the character of the house—its size, quality and situation; but, in these hard times, when everyone is feeling economic pressure, middle-class people are rather inclined to
  860
  go in for cheaper accommodation, and in the great cities, especially in London, rents of middle-class property are so high that they are often only too glad to take advantage of what hitherto has been regarded as working-class property. Under a local authority there is a check that the houses will be let at reasonable rents. Under the pressure of public opinion, the elected representatives see that the rents are reasonable and of a character that the ordinary working man can pay. The pressure is still so serious that many men are prepared to pay far more than their wages would justify their paying, or than they can reasonably afford. In the report, published the other day, on a regional survey made by a society of very good people in the Manchester district, I came across the following statement, made by a woman to the inspector:
  " We had to take the flat or nothing. There was no choice. But the rent leaves very little to feed the family. Poor people can't manage it without sacrificing food and clothes."
  The inspector went on to say:
  " I know many poor people in this block who are going hungry to pay the rent."
  That is in a case in which the local authority provides accommodation. Supply and demand being what they are, unless we can get some guarantee that the people who build these houses 'are going to carry out what their scheme suggests, and that the houses will really be let at reasonable rents that ordinary working-class people can pay, we may find that State money—and this is the whole point of my Amendment—can be used to give guarantees to speculative builders to build houses which they will let to the highest bidder, or, alternatively, will sell or dispose of to anyone who is ready to buy.
  I attach considerable importance to this Amendment. It may be said that it is difficult to operate, but I am credibly informed that it is not uncommon, in disposing of property for commercial purposes, to get some guarantee of this kind. Anyone who knows anything about business premises knows that it is the general custom to secure that the shop shall be confined or limited to one particular kind or character of trade. Is it not reasonable to ask, when the State is going into partnership for the first time with the private builder, that there

  861
  should be some guarantee that the houses should be confined, first to the working classes, and, secondly, to letting, and should not be available for sale. Here we are making a new departure. We are suggesting that the co-operation of local authorities is no longer wanted. The Parliamentary Secretary has waxed eloquent on private enterprise. The private builder, he says, without the competition of local authorities, will really now for the first time meet the demand. If words of this kind are introduced into the Bill, I think the public will, Anyhow, feel some assurance that the purpose of the Bill will not be defeated, and that the great need for the provision of decent houses at reasonable rents for the working-class population of our great towns will be met.
  5.53 p.m.
  Mr. JANNER: I beg to second the Amendment.
  In my view, And I think it will be the view of the House, this Amendment ought to be considered as striking at the very root of the Bill. The Bill itself is perfectly clear, in its Preamble anyhow, although it becomes rather muddled later on. The Preamble says quite definitely that the object of the Bill is to enable the Minister
  " to make contributions in certain cases towards losses sustained by authorities under guarantees given by them for facilitating the provision of houses to be let to the working classes."
  There is no question there of any intention; it is purely and simply a statement of the fact that the object is to grant facilities for the erection of houses which are definitely to be let to the working classes. In these circumstances, I would ask the Minister to consider whether he cannot accept this reasonable Amendment. It contains nothing that is contradictory to the intention of the Bill. It contains, however, something substantial, for it amends a word which really upsets what was the intention of the Bill, and I think it should be clear to those who are promoting the Bill that these words should be inserted. It is for the purpose of providing houses for the working classes that we are considering this Bill. We asked at one stage that provision should be made whereby the rent to be charged in respect of these houses should be controlled in some manner or another, or that it should come within
  862
  the compass of the rents charged for houses which are to-day protected by the Rent Restriction Acts. We were told that that was not necessary, though to many of us it appeared to be very substantially necessary. If we cannot get a provision of that nature, at least we ought to be assured that the working classes will be given the opportunity of using these houses as tenants, and will not, as is bound to happen in many eases in the absence of such a provision, be compelled to purchase the houses.
  As my hon. Friend has indicated, the builder is only human, and he may consider it advisable in his interests to sell the houses. Although his intentions at the commencement may have been perfectly honourable, and he may have been perfectly willing to build those houses for the purpose of letting, he may nevertheless find himself at a later stage desirous of selling the houses. His intention was a good one, but, unfortunately, he finds that it does not meet his desire at a, later stage, and he proceeds to sell the houses, or to let them to someone who is not a member of the working classes. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent him from doing that as long as he can honourably say that, at the time when he erected the houses, he really intended that they should be let to the working classes.
  Mr. HOPKINSON: The hon. Member keeps repeating the expression "working classes." Will he tell us who they are?
  Mr. JANNER: I have not introduced the term "working classes" into this matter. It is in earlier Statutes, and it is in this particular Bill, which I presume will also become a Statute. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will tell us, when he replies, what exactly he means by the term "working classes"? My view is that it is generally understood what a member of the working classes is, and, if it is not understood, the poor fellow who is going to say that it was his intention to let his houses to the working classes is going to find himself in just as big a difficulty when he expresses his intention as he will be in at a later stage if he guarantees to let them to people who are members of the working classes.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert): I must draw the attention of both hon. Members to the fact that the question of the definition of "working

  863
  classes" hardly comes within- this Amendment.
  Mr. JANNER: I am afraid that my hon. Friend goaded me into saying a few words which I had not really intended to say. In these circumstances, I will proceed with the argument that I was going to put forward. We ask merely that this assurance should be given. The subsidy is going to be taken away. Many boroughs are very upset, with their intimate knowledge of the circumstances in their own districts, about this removal of an opportunity that was given for them to provide houses for the working classes. The working classes will continue to exist. No one is going to prevent that unless they find themselves in the unhappy state of being workless. They must be provided with accommodation. The object of the Bill is to provide them with that accommodation and there can be no reason at all why, in view of the Preamble to the Bill, the right hon. Gentleman should not accept an Amendment which merely carries into effect what he has indicated there as his intention.
  6.2 p.m.
  Sir H. YOUNG: The hon. Member said, no doubt in a moment of inadvertence, that the Amendment struck at the very root of the Bill. I am sure he did not mean it, but I am his most grateful debtor, because undoubtedly it strikes at the root of a part of the Bill. I cannot imagine an Amendment which could have been more ingeniously framed to deprive the second Clause of any potential value whatever. If we desire to encourage the investment of capital and the devotion of enterprise and initiative to the supply of small houses to let to the working classes, which we all desire to see, we shall not promote that end by putting unnecessary obstacles in the way of their employment. It is a very great obstacle to the investment of private capital and the devotion of enterprise to this object if you impose upon the ownership of the security, which is the result of that investment, new and strange restrictions which have been entirely unknown to the law hitherto, and which one would hope would be unknown to the law in the future. I ask those who are acquainted with business conditions to imagine what
  864
  the emotions of any builder or investor would be if asked to produce houses subject to these restrictions. My first contention is that it would completely divert the stream of investment from this object or, if it did not, it would inevitably diminish the value of the security. By diminishing the value of the asset you would increase the return which the investor would expect from it. In other words, it would have a direct tendency to put up rents, and what we all want is to keep down rents.
  But there is another and an even more conclusive argument against the Amendment. There are two safeguards against abuses of the sort to which the Proposer and Seconder have referred. The first is that under the Act the local authority is not to propose, and the Minister is not to accept, proposals for guarantees unless the houses are intended to be let to persons of the working class. It is at that time that the local authority and the Minister will consider all the circumstances of the case, and will only accept proposals for guarantees if they are of the sort that are reasonably and practically likely to fulfil the purposes which the Act has in mind. That is a practical guarantee, whatever lawyers may say. There is an even more important consideration. The whole danger that is feared by the two hon. Members is entirely illusory. The state of affairs that they fear cannot arise. They wish to guard against the use of the guarantee for houses that are not let but are in the possession of the owner-occupier. It is practically impossible for that state of affairs to arise. If the builder or the investor who has bought the house, sells it to an owner-occupier, he will pay off the mortgage. If he pays off the mortgage, the guarantee ceases and there is no more public liability upon the house. A sale cannot take place without the repayment of the guarantee unless the builder or the investor is willing to be left with a personal agreement making him liable for the mortgage without any security and, if he did that, he would be a born fool. The state of affairs which will arise will be that, whenever a house ceases in practice to be a house let, and becomes a house in the possession of the owner-occupier, the mortgage and the guarantee will lapse, so what harm is done? The house has been provided for an owner-occupier and

  865
  State, local authority and building society finance are set free to provide a fresh house. Is not that precisely what we all require to be done?
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: The word "intended" is obviously open to criticism. Intended by whom? Intended by the builder of the house? Intended by the Minister? Intended only so far as the guarantee applies to the first builder of the house? The right hon. Gentleman speaks of a house being sold to an owner-occupier, but it may not be sold to an owner-occupier. It may be sold to another landlord who will let it, and all control is then gone. The amount of public control that we are getting for the subsidy is virtually negligible. Indeed it has been admitted now that, if the builder pays off the mortgage, the guarantee ceases and there is no public liability. One of the difficulties under which we are suffering to-day is that there are 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 houses where there has been no public liability at all. All that we are doing by this Clause is to revert to unrestricted private enterprise. The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that, if the Amendment were accepted, it would destroy the second Clause. For that reason alone I am prepared to vote for it. I should be delighted if the second Clause were destroyed. Notice the argument that the right hon. Gentleman uses. "We are putting unnecessary obstacles in the way of those who wish to invest capital." We are not. The right hon. Gentleman is doing that. He is, by withdrawing all kinds of corporate assistance which have been given since 1919, discouraging the local authorities who, with assistance, could provide the necessary capital for carrying on the housing schemes that are necessary. He regards the Amendment as a great obstacle because he wants to get back at the earliest possible moment to free contract, of which he is the greatest exponent in the House.
  He said that new and strange restrictions unknown to the law would be imposed. The State in times of emergency has imposed restrictions far greater than those asked for by the Amendment. It is essential that the houses that are to be built with the backing of the State shall be let to the working classes. That
  866
  is not asking for new powers. It is not asking for the powers that the new President of the United States is going to ask for in order to deal with an emergency, and this is as grave if not as large an emergency. It seems to me, therefore, no argument, that the right hon. Gentleman should say that this simple Amendment imposes new and strange restrictions. The argument has been used many times by the right hon. Gentleman and by many Members on both sides that the houses that have been built and let have been let to people who are not members of the working classes. As a matter of fact, they have passed into the hands of the lower middle classes and professional people. There is a great deal of truth in that and, as I understand it, the hon. Baronet would like to provide that under the guarantee houses shall be let only to persons of the working classes. There is no reason to believe that the houses built under the guarantee will be let to any different class of persons from those to whom Chamberlain and Wheatley houses have been let in the past, unless the right hon. Gentleman takes certain steps to ensure that that is so.
  Under this Clause, with the power that the guarantee gives him, it would have been possible for the right hon. Gentleman, had he so chosen, to make the wording so definite that houses would have been let to members of the working class by imposing some limitation of rent. The right hon. Gentleman asks what harm has been done in Clause 2. I am sorry that I cannot tell him yet but if he lives long enough to hear it, I shall be able to tell him, say, two years from now. What we know is that the effect of Clause 2 as it stands without this Amendment will be that there can be no certainty, first that any houses are going to be built at all and, if they are built, that they might not pass outside the occupancy of members of the working classes. I should hope—though I am afraid it will not be so—that the House on this occasion will be prepared to support the Amendment—not a very large but a reasonable one in view of the circumstances.
  Question put, "That the word 'intended' stand part of the Bill."
  The House divided: Ayes, 257; Noes, 54.

  Division No. 67.]

  AYES.

  [5.38 p.m.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hint, George Henry

  Rothschild, James A. de

  Banfield, John William

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Salter, Dr. Alfrad

  Batey, Joseph

  Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

  Bernays, Robert

  Janner, Barnett

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Thorne, William James

  Cove. William G.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Daggar, George

  Lawson, John James

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Edwards, Charles

  Lunn, William

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Wood, Sir Murdoch McKentie (Banff)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

  Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'.W.)

  Maxton, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Milner, Major James

  Mr. C. Macdonald and Mr. T.

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Groves.

  Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

  Price, Gabriel

  NOES.

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)

  Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

  Blindell. James

  Albery, Irving James

  Balniel, Lord

  Boulton, W. W.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

  Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  Procter, Major Henry Adam

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Pybus, Percy John

  Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

  Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Buchan, John

  Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey division)

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

  Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G

  Ray, Sir William

  Burnett, John George

  Hopkinson, Austin

  Remer, John R.

  Burton, Colonel Henry Walter

  Hornby, Frank

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Butler, Richard Austen

  Horobin, Ian M.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Cadogan, Hon. Edward

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Hume, sir George Hopwood

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Castle Stewart, Earl

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Russell, Richard John (Edilsbury)

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Hugh

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Selley, Harry R.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

  Kirkpatrick, William M.

  Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

  Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric

  Knox, Sir Alfred

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Clarke, Frank

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

  Slater, John

  Colfox, Ma|or William Philip

  Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

  Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Lees-Jones, John

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Cooke, Douglas

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Smithers, Waldron

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Courtauld, Major John Sewell

  Levy, Thomas

  Somerville, Annesley A (Windsor)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Lewis, Oswald

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

  Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

  Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

  Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

  Davison, Sir William Henry

  Lloyd, Geoffrey

  Steel-Maitland. Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Dickle, John P.

  Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

  Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)

  Dower, P. W.

  Mabane, William

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Dower, Captain A. V. G.

  Mac Andrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Sugden. Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Duckworth, George A. V.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Summersby, Charles H.

  Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Sutcliffe, Harold

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Dunglass, Lord

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Thomson, sir Frederick Charles

  Eillston, Captain George Sampson

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Eimley, Viscount

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Entwistle, Cyril Fullard

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

  Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Meller, Richard James

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Ford, Sir Patrick J.

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

  Fox, Sir Gifford

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Warrender. Sir Victor A. G.

  Fremantle, Sir Francis

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  Galbraith, James Francis Wallace

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Glliett, Sir George Masterman

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Wedderburn,Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Weymouth, viscount

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Munro, Patrick

  Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Grimston, R. V.

  Nunn, William

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Womersley, Walter James

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G.A.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley

  Hales, Harold K.

  Patrick. Colin M.

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  Peat, Charles U.

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks)

  Hammersley, Samuel S.

  Penny, Sir George

  Hanley, Dennis A.

  Petherick, M.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilston)

  Major George Davies and

  Hartland, George A.

  Pickford. Hon. Mary Ada

  Commander Southby.

  Division No. 68.]

  AYES.

  [6.15 p.m.

  Adams, Samuel VyvyanT. (Leeds, W.)

  Faile, Sir Bertram G.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Agnaw, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Ford, Sir Patrick J.

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  Albery, Irving James

  Fox, Sir Gifford

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)

  Fremantle, Sir FrancTs

  Munro, Patrick

  Aske, Sir Robert William

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

  Atkinson, Cyril

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Nunn, William

  Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J.

  Glyn. Ma|or Raiph G. C.

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Patrick. Colin M.

  Balniel, Lord

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Pearson, William G.

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Granville, Edgar

  Peat, Charles U.

  Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter

  Petherick. M.

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllston)

  Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley

  Grimston, R. V.

  Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

  Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Hacking. Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Pownall, Sir Assheton

  Blindell, James

  Hales, Harold K.

  Procter, Major Henry Adam

  Boulton, W. W.

  Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)

  pybus, Percy John

  Bower, Lieut. Com. Robert Tatton

  Hammersley, Samuel S.

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Hanbury, Cecil

  Ramsay, T. B W. (Western Isles)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Braithwaite. J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Hartland, George A.

  Ray, Sir William

  Brass Captain Sir William

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Remer, John R.

  Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Hellers, Captain F. F A.

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Brown. Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)

  Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Brown. Brig. -Gen. H.C. (Berks, Newb'y)

  Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Russell. Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Buchan, John

  Hopkinson, Austin

  Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)

  Buchan-Hepburn. P. G. T.

  Hornby, Frank

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Burgin. Dr. Edward Leslie

  Horobin, Ian M.

  Samuel. Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Burnett, John George

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Butler, Richard Austen

  Howltt. Dr. Alfred B.

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Cadogan, Hon. Edward

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.)

  Selley, Harry R.

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Hume, Sir George Hopwood

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

  Hurst, Sir Gerald B.

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Campbell-Johnston. Malcolm

  Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd)

  Shaw Captain William T. (Fortar)

  Caporn. Arthur Cecil

  Inskip. Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

  Castle Stewart, Earl

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Slater, John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Smiles, Lieut. Col. Sir Walter D.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Smith Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Smith, R. W.(Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)

  Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Hugh

  Kirkpatrick. William M.

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)

  Knight, Holford

  Smithers, Waldron

  Chapman, Col.R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Chapman, sir Samuel (Edinburgh,S.)

  Leech. Dr. J. W.

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Clarke, Frank

  Lees-Jones, John

  Soper, Richard

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Cobh, Sir Cyril

  Lennox-Boyd. A. T.

  Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Levy, Thomas

  Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

  Lewis Oswald

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Lindsay. Noel Ker

  Steel-Maitland, Ht. Hon. Sir Arthur

  Cook. Thomas A.

  Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

  Storey, Samuel

  Cooke, Douglas

  Lloyd. Geoffrey

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Courtauld, Major John Sewell

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Cowan. D. M.

  Lovat-Fraser. James Alexander

  Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  MacAndrew. Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Sugden. Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Crookshank. Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Summersby, Charles H.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Sutcliffle, Harold

  Davidson. Rt. Hon. J. C. C.

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Thomas. Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Davison, Sir William Henry

  McKie. John Hamilton

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Denman. Hon. R. D.

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Desoencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.

  Magnay, Thomas

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Dickle, John P.

  Making, Briqadier-General Ernest

  Turton. Robert Hugh

  Donner. P. W.

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Vauqhan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Duckworth. George A. V.

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)

  Duqdale. Captain Thomas Lionel

  Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

  Wallace, John (Dunfermilne)

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Ward. Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Elliot. Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Mills. Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

  Elliston. Captain George Sampson

  Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Eimley, Viscount

  Motion. A. Hugh Eisdale

  Watt. Captain George Steven H.

  Emrys-Evans. P. V.

  Moore-Brabazon. Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Wayland, Sir William A.

  Entwistle. Cyril Fullard

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)

  Weymouth. Viscount

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  868

  869

  William, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingslay

  Sir George Penny and Mr.

  Wilton, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Womersley.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)

  NOES.

  Acland, Bt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

  Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Z'tl'nd)

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Price, Gabriel

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Banfield, John William

  Hirst, George Henry

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Batey, Joseph

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Bernays, Robert

  Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Johnstons, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

  Cove. William G.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Thorne, William James

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Daggar, George

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Wedgwood. Rt. Hon. Josiah

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Lawson, John James

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Dobble, William

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Edwards, Charles

  Lunn, William

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Lianelly)

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

  Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

  Maxton, James

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Milner, Major James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Nathan, Major H. L.

  Mr. Janner and Mr. Groves.

  6.23 p.m.
  Sir P. HARRIS: I beg to move, in page 2, line 35, at the end, to insert the words:
  " Except where otherwise approved by the Minister on the recommendation of the local authority, every house to which this section applies shall be provided with a fixed bath."
  This is a very modest proposal. It has already appealed to one of the Ministers, and I hope that it will appeal equally to the Minister of Health and that he will justify his title as Minister of Health by accepting it. I frankly tell the House that I have taken the words of the Amendment out of the 1923 Act in which they were inserted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as the minimum of what was required as the national standard of a civilised home. It is desired that this symbol of civilisation should be secured to every future house constructed either by private enterprise or by local authorities. I say advisedly, "either by private enterprise or by local authorities" because local authorities, under the Act of 1925, were automatically required to put in a fixed bath unless the Minister said to the contrary. Of course, where, owing to insufficient water supply in the neighbourhood of, say, a rural district, it was not practicable, the Minister could exempt a house from this requirement. But in the ordinary way, every house under this scheme automatically will be required to have a bath.
  I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should accept the Amendment. I observe that he has left the Parliamentary Secretary in charge. The Act
  870
  of 1923 was always known as the Chamberlain Act. Let this be known as the "Shakespeare bath," and he will go down for all time as the Minister who established, by Act of Parliament, the symbol of civilisation that a fixed bath should be provided in every working-class house. The Amendment cannot hurt the Bill. It will leave the right hon. Gentleman with power to exempt in necessary cases, and will do much to mollify some of the opposition to the Bill, which some people think is a reactionary Measure. At any rate, it will show that it is the object of the Government to set a good standard of what working-class accommodation should be.
  6.27 p.m.
  Mr. JANNER: I beg to second the Amendment.
  I noticed the expression on the face of the Parliamentary Secretary when my hon. Friend was urging him to accept the Amendment, and I am induced by that fact to believe that he really desires to have the Amendment inserted. Whether the desire will be sufficiently strong to permit him to accept it, with possible pressure from without, I do not know, but I am sure that the House will consider that it is a very reasonable Amendment. We know the miserable conditions under which people have to live in some of the existing houses, and how those conditions are aggravated by the fact that there is not a fixed bath. There is no need for an hon. Member of this House to elaborate those difficulties, because any hon. Member who has taken the trouble to walk into some of the

  871
  houses and has seen the conditions will know very well that a fixed bath is a desirable asset in a house for the accommodation of members of the working class.
  I hope that this will not be regarded in and way in the nature of a frivolous Amendment. On the contrary, the real use to which a bath can and should be put in working-class houses should commend itself to the Minister, and he should realise that the difficulties which have existed hitherto in houses where a fixed bath is not provided are sufficiently serious to allow him to insert the Amendment in the Bill. Hon. Members who have had the fortune or misfortune to visit houses in mining districts will know how essential the proposed proviso is for the benefit of the people who have to work underground. It is equally important for all other members of the working class. In those circumstances, I do not think that any further weight of argument is needed to convince, if not the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary, the Members present that they ought to vote for an Amendment of this description.
  6.30 p.m.
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Shakespeare): I can assure the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Janner) that no one could consider this Amendment frivolous. If we do not accept it, it is not because it is frivolous, but because we think it is absolutely unnecessary. I cannot help feeling that the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) moved the Amendment with by-election eyes. He wants to be able to say: "I am the man who gave you a bath." I should like to associate my name with a new bath in every house, but I am mindful of the fact that a poet of my name might have said that "a bath in any other room would smell as sweet." The acceptance of this Amendment will make absolutely no difference to the provision of a bath. The point is, ought the matter to be left to the discretion of the Minister or should there be an express provision in the Bill? We say that it is far better to leave it to the discretion of the Minister.
  872
  I feel as strongly as the hon. Baronet, or as the hon. Member for Whitechapel, or as any other hon. Member that the provision of a bath in a working-class house is absolutely essential. Imagine what would happen in an urban area if a builder who was building several hundred houses went to the local authority for a guarantee and said: "I am building these houses, but there are no baths." Would the local authority give the guarantee? Of course, they would not. Would the building society give its guarantee? Of course, it would not. In regard to an urban area in my constituency or in any other constituency would the Minister give his guarantee in respect of houses where there was no bath? No. I suggest that this is one of those showy Amendments of which the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) spoke, which make no difference to the actual situation. Why should you pick out a bath? Why should you not insist on an Amendment saying that artificial light should be provided? Why not say that every house must have a sink?
  Sir P. HARRIS: That is provided for already in the Act of 1923.
  Mr. KIRKWOOD: They would have intelligence to put in a sink but might not have intelligence enough to put in a. bath.
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) has put his finger on the point as he often does. It is no more necessary to put down an Amendment that every house should have a bath than to put down an Amendment that every house should have a sink. Baths are essential under modern conditions. If houses from the point of view of a future tenant in an ordinary urban area were provided without baths—
  Mr. LANSBURY: They are doing it now.
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: The object is to provide houses which will attract tenants.
  Mr. LANSBURY: They are building houses now without baths.
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: I should be glad to know where they are doing it, except in a very rare case of a rural area where there is no water supply, and where if

  873
  you had a bath you would have nothing to put in it except coal. You can do two things under this Bill. You can either assume that common sense will prevail, or you can take the opposite view and tie it up with barbed wire or red tape and insist that everything should be put down in the Bill, such as the provision of sinks, baths, electric light, and so on. If you say that there must be a bath, a fixed bath, then I have no doubt that if we accepted that Amendment we might have another Amendment that there must be a fixed soap dish, and that not more than three people must use the bath at the same time. We say that one condition is essential, and that is that these houses shall be intended to be let to members of the working class. That is the only condition on which we insist. Any other restriction which is a matter of common sense is unnecessary, In point of fact a local authority, a building society, or the Minister in giving a guarantee will see to it that modern houses are up to the ordinary decent amenities of life. For these reasons, not because the Amendment is frivolous but because it is unnecessary, the Government ask the House not to accept it.
  6.38 p.m.
  Mr. CHARLES BROWN: I am astonished at the speech to which we have just listened, because at an earlier stage we brought forward an Amendment to secure, in general terms, the amenities of these houses which will be erected under the Bill, and the Parliamentary Secretary said that that Amendment was unnecessary, just as he has told us in more specific and definite terms that the present Amendment is unnecessary. He treated both Amendments in exactly the same way, on the assumption that all the houses that are going to be built under this Bill will necessarily have in them all the amenities which one has come to regard as necessary for the working classes in 20th century civilisation. We can find nothing in the Bill guaranteeing that set of conditions when these houses are erected. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that it is only in rural areas where there is no water supply that houses are erected nowadays without a fixed bath. I am afraid that he is wrong. He ought to make more exhaustive inquiries. I know of an urban district in
  874
  my own area where only a month ago plans were passed for houses in which there were to be no fixed baths. That was an urban district in the county of Nottingham.
  If the Parliamentary Secretary does make inquiries he will find that in more places than one plans are submitted to the local authorities in which there is no provision for any fixed bath, and as the local by-laws probably make no provision to the contrary such houses are being built. We say most emphatically that where you are giving a State guarantee to the speculative builder who is to put up houses which the working classes are to inhabit, we have a right to say that that builder shall include a fixed bath, which is one of the most essential features of a house for the working class. The Parliamentary Secretary agrees with me on that matter. We want to be sure that when these houses are put up they will have baths in them. Nothing that the Parliamentary Secretary has said proves clearly to me that that will be the case. I hope the House will have no hesitation in supporting the Amendment.
  6.40 p.m.
  Mr. HOLDSWORTH: After listening to the Parliamentary Secretary hon. Members must feel convinced that there is something more in the opposition to the Amendment than the statement that it is not necessary to put these words in the Bill. If it is essential that every house should have a fixed bath, what harm could be done to the Bill by accepting the Amendment? I cannot understand the refusal. I know that there is 0 desire on the part of some directors of building societies—here I am speaking with absolute knowledge—that they should not have these words in the Bill, so that they will be able to leave out the provision of a bath. There can be no question about that. The Parliamentary Secretary said that it was unnecessary to put in these words, and in the next breath he asked the House to give discretion to the Minister. Why should the Minister want discretion as to the necessity of a bath being provided? If the Parliamentary Secretary is consistent in his argument that a bath is necessary, I ask him to agree to put these words in the Bill. Then we shall be certain that a bath will be provided. It is not a mere question of the Minister

  875
  carrying out the Act. Certain conditions will have to be fulfilled before permission is given for the building of the houses. The present Minister of Health and the present Parliamentary Secretary will not occupy those position for ever. It may be Socialist Ministers who will occupy them. If this is a Bill under which houses are to be built, let us make certain that whoever occupies the Government Bench a fixed bath will be provided in the houses.
  6.42 p.m.
  Mr. HICKS: I associate myself with the Amendment, and I am astonished, as are other hon. Members, at the reply of the Parliamentary Secretary that the Amendment is not necessary. The experience that we have of working-class houses in this country is that 75 per cent. have not a bath. I am speaking of the way that private enterprise has catered for the working classes so far as baths are concerned. Now that we are getting back to relatively unrestricted private enterprise, where sometimes they will not have to get the sanction of the Ministry of Health as to building, the question of the provision of a fixed bath may not always come before the Minister for sanction. I have lived in houses with no bath accommodation. I heard the Parliamentary Secretary the other day refer to the fact that there were some parts of the country where water was not sufficient to fill a bath. In a climate like ours there are surely two or three chances a year of filling a bath. To use such an argument that there should not be a fixed bath under such conditions is preposterous. It should be the duty of the Minister of Health to arrange to convey water if it is not available, rather than the Parliamentary Secretary should say that people should not have a bath under those conditions.
  Some hon. Members have referred to mining villages, where there has been no bath accommodation. I have been in those houses. I have seen the men come from their work. I have seen a man sitting in the tub while the woman has been preparing the food and the children have been playing about in the kitchen. I have seen them all in one room, with the man in the tub, and when he has got out of the tub other members of the family have had to sit in the tub. If we
  876
  pass this Amendment, we want to propose that not only should there be a fixed bath, but that there should be a bathroom. If in the Act of 1923 it was provided that there should be a bath, why in 1933 should there not he a bathroom? is it not decent where you have different members of the family, boys and girls, that there should be adequate opportunity for the members of the family to be able to have a bath without being in sight of each other? To resist such an Amendment as this indicates that there is an attitude of mind towards housing betterment that is not well for the working classes.
  Reference has been made to the possibility that the present Minister of Health will not always be in that position. If this is the attitude of mind of the right hon. Gentleman towards this problem, I hope he will not be in his office very long. I suggest that we cannot allow a matter of this kind to go. We want to make quite sure that any house which receives any sort of subsidy or support from public money shall have a bath. We also want to have a fixed bath, and we also think that every house should be provided with a bathroom.
  6.46 p.m.
  Sir F. FREMANTLE: I must confess that I am still unconvinced by the arguments put forward by the Parliamentary Secretary. I am voicing the opinion of the whole body of medical officers of health throughout the country in saying that every house should have a bath. During the last 30 years the standard of housing has changed, and while it may be possible to reduce some of the standards to which we have grown accustomed since the War without doing any harm, a bath, and that means a fixed bath, is absolutely essential so far as public health is concerned. There is not a person connected with public health administration any where, official or unofficial, who does not agree that for the rising generation it is absolutely necessary that every house should have a bath. I do not say that it should necessarily be a fixed bath. I have filled my own tub with cold water and got into it, and enjoyed it. I think everyone should be able to get into a bath of cold water and soak. Some of us have grown up without a bathroom and have had to

  877
  put the bath in the cellar and in various other places, in the kitchen, or the scullery.
  The essential thing is that a bath should be provided. It is all very well for officialdom to say that they will be provided. I have had a long experience of local authorities, I do not speak in the main of big municipal undertakings, but of the smaller councils, those who are not in the public eye, and it sometimes happens that things do slip through in certain circumstances, and I am afraid that unless it is clearly indicated that a bath must be provided this might slip through. Such a matter should not be left to local authorities. I have some experience as to their indulgence. I am speaking now of the smaller urban authorities, where there is not the same hold over the private builder as there is in the case of the large municipalities. I think the provision of a fixed bath—I do not go so far as to say bathroom—is necessary, and I hope the Government will reconsider their attitude.
  6.50 p.m.
  Mr. EDWARD WILLIAMS: We welcome the support of the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle), and we hope that the Minister of Health will be impressed by his remarks. It is obvious that the inability of the Parliamentary Secretary to accept the Amendment indicates the standard of houses in which the working classes are to live. I disagree with some of the remarks of the hon. Member for St. Albans, but I do not desire to enter into an argument with him, except to say that he has not lived in houses of the kind which miners are obliged to occupy. One of the most disgraceful things in this country is the fact that 99 out of every 100 miners employed to-day are obliged to wash before the fire in the family kitchen. For more than 12 years I was obliged as a working miner to do that with the whole of my family in the kitchen, mother, father, and the other children. For more than 35 years my father was obliged to do the same. It is a standing disgrace, and if we have any ethical regard for our people it is something which we should not countenance for any length of time.
  The Parliamentary Secretary has certainly shown enormous faith in private enterprise. He fails to appreciate the fact that there are jerry builders to-day
  878
  that there are people who will economise at the expense of the absolute necessities and amenities of the people, and I trust that having had an expression of opinion from his own side and from Liberal Members, as well as ourselves, he will realise the necessity of including the Amendment in the Bill. We consider the proposal absolutely essential not only for ethical purposes but for sanitary purposes also. I heard the reference of the Parliamentary Secretary to places where clean water does not exist. That, I say, is a standing reflection on the Ministry of Health, and ought to be remedied at once. There should be not only a bath but a bathroom as well. A large number of mothers, particularly in mining districts, are suffering from scalds from water which they had to lift on to the hob to boil in time for their husband's and sons to wash on their return from the mine. That is also something which calls for immediate attention. In South Wales a large number of our women-folk and their children have been scalded and are suffering from permanent injuries, because baths have not been installed in their homes. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will reflect and indicate to us that he is prepared to accept the Amendment.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. PIKE: I hope that the Amendment will be accepted. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) said that he had extracted the wording of the Amendment from the 1923 Act. If it was in the 1923 Act, I see no reason why it should not be in the present Bill. It is not satisfactory to say that local authorities and the Minister of Health, or building societies, who are to be responsible for the financing of these schemes, would not accept a scheme unless there was provision for baths. I come from a working-class dwelling and I know that they have suffered considerably from a lack of bath accommodation. In view of the doubt as to whether baths will be provided under the Bill as it stands, I hope the Minister will accept the Amendment. I think the statement of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. Williams) that 99 per cent. of the miners of this country lack facilities for baths should be corrected. I agree that in a large number of miners' houses there is

  879
  no such accommodation, but in the vast majority of pits there are pithead baths provided.
  Mr. E. WILLIAMS: The hon. Member cannot have seen the returns from the Central Welfare Association as to the number of pithead baths that have been provided.
  Mr. PIKE: If I said the majority, I withdraw that expression, but to a large degree these facilities do exist, and, in addition, on the large housing schemes which have been carried out in colliery districts during the past 10 years provision has been made for baths. I use this fact also as another reason why the Amendment should be accepted by the Government. A bath to-day is not only one of the necessary amenities of life; it is also a fact that a bath in a working-class dwelling gives an entirely new outlook not only for the parents but for the children as well. It gives them a new outlook on education. If a bath is installed and children are clean, they look upon life and the things of life in a much cleaner spirit than they would do when they lack these facilities. In view of the fact that the Amendment will not embarrass the Government, or prevent housing schemes being carried out according to the desires of the Minister of Health, and, further, that it will not prevent private enterprise providing the people of this country with a sufficient number of new houses at an economic price, I hope the Government will accept the proposal.
  6.57 p.m.
  Mr. SLATER: I should like to support the Amendment, and I hope that it will be pressed upon the Minister. I do rot propose to repeat the arguments that have been already used, but to direct the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to something which I think he should really understand. The proposal in the Bill is in my view a retrograde step, and will bring about a, good deal of regret among one very live industry in this country. I refer to the sanitary industry. Professor Clay, dealing with unemployment, has pointed out clearly that one of our greatest tasks to-day is to create new industries, and to extend them, and he particularly mentioned the sanitary engineering industry in this country. Is
  880
  it right for the Minister of Health to give a licence to any locality, or to any builder, to omit this absolute necessity in the homes of working classes? I say that the right hon. Gentleman is going to create a great deal of trouble for himself hereafter from an employment point of view. We are fighting for our position in the world's markets, where we used to have a. primary position in the supply of sanitary wares. I make no excuse for saying this. I am in that business myself, and I say that His Majesty's Government ought to encourage this industry above everything else. We cannot encourage it on middle-class incomes or wealthy incomes, but we can encourage it, and make manufacturing possible, if it is based on a demand for bathrooms in working-class homes. That is how we shall get our power, not only to make sanitary wares cheaply in this country, but to meet competition abroad. It is because I realise the importance of employment in this country, and because I subscribe to everything said on both sides of the House, that I feel that the Minister of Health should accept this Amendment.
  7 p.m.
  Sir H. YOUNG: We have had expressions of opinion from three sides of the House, and the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Slater), looking at it from a new point of view, has given prominence to the subject of employment. I am not sure I could quite follow the argument of the hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle), who gave us such interesting reminiscences. At first I thought he was prepared to have houses without baths, but his second thoughts were in favour of the acceptance of the Amendment. In view of the course which the Debate has taken, the Government will accept the Amendment. I confess that, as I listened to the argument of the Parliamentary Secretary, I thought that in common sense and prudence it eras entitled to prevail. His argument was that it was the accepted standard in decent house building that there should be a bath. He spoke of what we know and what is going to be done. With this, I may say, the Parliamentary Secretary entirely agrees. It was stated by me, on the Second Reading, that one of the principles of this new housing era was to be that the standard of national housing

  881
  was not to be relaxed with the assent of the Government.
  If, in the opinion of the House, it is necessary in order to secure the particular results to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, to have a statutory provision with relation to baths, let us have it. It must be subject to the discretion of the Minister to remit the requirement in proper cases. The hon. Member who spoke last, referred to those cases, mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary, in which a bath is not possible. These cases do exist. I propose to accept the Amendment, subject to any necessary revision of the wording in another place.
  7.4 p.m.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end, to add the words "in a bathroom."
  I believe this is the first occasion on which we have had an Amendment of importance accepted. I am sure hon. Members of the House will welcome it. I should like the Minister to go a little further, because the Amendment permits a discretion which I do not wish to see. I do not agree that, because there is no
  fixed water supply, there should be no fixed bath. I think that a fixed bath in a bath room should be provided. In 1924 we fought this out in the House. It has been accepted and operated for nine years. If private enterprise is to do this job properly, then it ought to provide a fixed bath in a bath-room. Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman has some doubts himself about this, and has agreed to accept the Amendment, I hope he will also accept what is now the law of the land and agree to these words being added.
  7.5 p.m.
  Sir H. YOUNG: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question is in the negative. I will approach the bath with him, but I will not enter the bathroom. I think we have done all that is practicable and sensible in accepting the Amendment. In going further we should go too far, and have too great a degree of elaboration.
  Question put, "That those words be there added to the proposed Amendment."
  The House divided: Ayes, 39; Noes, 263.

  Division No. 69.]

  AYES.

  [7.6 p.m.

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Milner, Major James

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Nathan, Major H. L.

  Banfield, John William

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Price, Gabriel

  Cocks. Frederick Seymour

  Hirst, George Henry

  Salter, Dr. Alfred

  Cove, William G.

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Thorne, William James

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Kirkwood, David

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Daggar, George

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Lawson, John James

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Dobbie, William

  Lunn, William

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Edwards, Charles

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

  Maxton, James

  Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves.

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

  Bracken, Brendan

  Clarke, Frank

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.

  Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  Albery, Irving James

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey

  Atkinson, Cyril

  Brown, Col. D.C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Balfour, George (Hampitead)

  Brown, Ernest (Leith)

  Conant, R. J. E.

  Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)

  Cooke, Douglas

  Balniel, Lord

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Cooper, A. Duff

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Burnett, John George

  Cowan, D. M.

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

  Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burniey)

  Craven-Ellis, William

  Benn. Sir Arthur Shirley

  Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Bernays, Robert

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Boolie)

  Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Cautley, Sir Henry S.

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Bllndell, James

  Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)

  Crossley, A. C.

  Boulton, W. W.

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston)

  Davison, Sir William Henry

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)

  Denman, Hon. R. D.

  Denville, Alfred

  Lees-Jones, John

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Donner, P. W.

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

  Duckworth, George A. V.

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Salt, Edward W.

  Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel

  Levy, Thomas

  Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.|

  Lewis, Oswald

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

  Dunglass, Lord

  Liddall, Walter S.

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Eales, John Frederick

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest

  Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

  Elliston, Captain George Sampson

  Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Emrys-Evans, P. V.

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Selley, Harry R.

  Entwlstle, Cyril Fullard

  Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Mabane, William

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)

  Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Simmonds, Oliver Edwin

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

  MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

  Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)

  Ford. Sir Patrick J.

  Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness)

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Fox, Sir Gifford

  McEwen, Captain J. H. F.

  Slater, John

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-in-F.)

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton

  Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine.C.)

  Gillett, Sir George Masterman

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Magnay, Thomas

  Smithers, Waldron

  Glossop, C. W. H.

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)

  Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Soper, Richard

  Goff, Sir Park

  Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)

  Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

  Gower, Sir Robert

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.

  Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas

  Merriman. Sir F. Boyd

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Greaves-Lord. Sir Walter

  Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fyide)

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Storey, Samuel

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)

  Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)

  Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Hales, Harold K.

  Morrison, William Shepherd

  Summersby, Charles H.

  Hamilton, Sir George (llford)

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Sutcllffe, Harold

  Hamilton. Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

  Munro, Patrick

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Hanbury, Cecil

  Nail, Sir Joseph

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Newton, Sir Douglas George C.

  Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Nicholson. Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Haslam. Sir John (Bolton)

  Nunn, William

  Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

  Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Turton. Robert Hugh

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon

  Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)

  Patrick, Colin M.

  Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornseyt)

  Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)

  Pearson, William G.

  Wallace, John (Dunfermline)

  Holdsworth, Herbert

  Peat, Charles U.

  Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)

  Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Hopkinson, Austin

  Perkins, Walter R. D.

  Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

  Hornby, Frank

  Petherick, M.

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Horobin, Ian M.

  Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-

  Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Pownall. Sir Assheton

  Weymouth, Viscount

  Hudson. Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Pybus, Percy John

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Hudson, Ian M.

  Raikes, Henry V, A. M.

  Whyte. Jardine Bell

  Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Hume, Sir George nopwood

  Ramsbotham, Herwald

  Wills, Wilfrid D.

  Jackson, sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

  Rankin, Robert

  Wilton, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

  Jamieson, Douglas

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Windtor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Joel, Dudley J. Barnato

  Ray, Sir William

  Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Wise, Alfred R.

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Remer, John R.

  Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.

  Worthington, Dr. John V.

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

  Kerr, Hamilton W

  Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough. E.)

  Kirkpatrick, William M.

  Rothschild, James A. de

  Knight, Holford

  Runqe. Norah Cecil

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Law. Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Sir George Penny and Mr.

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Russell, Richard John (Eddlsbury)

  Womersley.

  Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.
  7.16 p.m.
  Sir H. YOUNG: I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  The Committee stage of the Bill has not lasted a long time, for the obvious reason that the provisions of the Bill are short and succinct. The purpose of the
  884
  Bill has clearly emerged in our discussion. The purpose is the adaptation of our housing policy to the changing needs of the time. It is an adaptation to what we all agree and know are the two chief housing needs of the nation, a better and fuller supply of small houses for the won-king classes, and a swifter and more efficient remedy for the deep-seated evil of the slums. The policy of the Bill on

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  that first matter has been clearly explained and clearly understood by the House. It is that we should take advantage of the changes in the times to restore to their normal activity those normal forces which alone throughout history have been adequate to provide humanity with its chief wants.
  As to this matter of the provision of a sufficient number of small houses to be let to the working classes, if we look back at the recent history of housing we shall see without doubt that the system of subsidies has been substantially a failure. It has great successes in other directions to its credit. It has provided many fine housing estates; it has established new standards of housing. But for this urgent, this basic need for the supply of small houses to be let, the system of subsidy has failed. Now, after 14 years of operation, we still lack that essential supply. No doubt during the period during which subsidies have been in operation, we have, until recently, necessarily had a second best. Building costs have been such that it has been impossible to provide the supply of the smaller houses that we needed without subsidy, and so we have had to struggle and stagger along with the second best of the subsidy system imposed upon us by the height. of building costs.
  But surely it stands to reason that an alert nation and Government should be on the watch to take the very first opportunity that occurs of passing on from that unsatisfactory second best to a more effective system. That is what this Bill proposes to do. We seize the opportunity of the fall in building costs and the great fall in the price of capital for investment to look forward to a more fertile and more productive epoch in housing, one in which those larger forces to supply our wants may be brought into play— forces which have been so long checked by the insuperable obstacle of the competition of subsidised houses. We clear a great obstacle from the path of supply, the obstacle of subsidised competition. We bring into play all those forces which, when they are allowed free play, make for the further reduction of costs. With these forces to help us we look forward with an optimism that I believe not to be unjustified, to a more fortunate and more successful epoch in the provision of this need.
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  We have a, second line behind the line of private enterprise. We release the forces of private capital and enterprise and initiative for our assistance by the abolition of subsidised competition. Behind that we still have a second line. We have the line of the local authorities, and their liability and duty still to attend to the housing needs of their localities. That remains in a manner that it is possible to encourage more freely in the future than in the past. We have established, in the course of these Debates, particularly on Second Reading, that it is within the possibility of local authorities, with building costs and the price of money at their present level, to provide houses at rents which are already within a few pence—3d., 4d. or 5d.—of the normal rent which was fixed as the ideal for the 1924 subsidies. We therefore can rely upon this force as our second line of defence.
  A rumour spread that it was the intention of the Government and of the Ministry of Health deliberately to discourage the putting forward of schemes by local authorities for building without subsidy. In that there is not a word of truth. On the contrary we shall rely upon them as a second line of defence. Then there is the second Clause of the Bill, the building society scheme. As the House will remember, this has never been put forward by the Government as an essential part of its housing plan. It has been put forward as a valuable aid in the promotion of that free play of the forces of private enterprise which is in itself an essential part of the plan. It is a little practical step which may have great results. It is little because the guarantee and the State liability are small. The potential results are great because there can be no finer service that we can do for housing than to secure the services of the millions available in the hands of the building societies and to secure them at the rate at which the building societies have declared their willingness to lend them. I believe it to be an absolutely incontrovertible proposition that it would be impossible from any other source at the present time to obtain so free a supply of capital at such a low rate of interest. Further, this supply of capital which we have obtained is available in the hands of those who know how to use it, who are acquainted with the building

  887
  trade and know the housing need of the people.
  Some doubt has been cast, in the course of our discussions, upon the willingness of the building societies to discharge their part under the plan put forward in Clause 2. There is no doubt at all of that. It is a plan put forward voluntarily by the building societies. It was their own suggestion. It was framed quite frankly by them to meet their own particular needs, which they believe are in accordance with the needs of the country. As a matter of fact it has been said by one speaker in the Debates that there are only three societies willing to fulfil the scheme. That is not so. I have been in touch with nine societies who are prepared to operate the scheme, and those nine societies have capital assets of the value of £ 150,000,000. The House will see therefore that we have enlisted powerful forces.
  Let me refer to the review of the new conditions which is about to be undertaken by the committee appointed to-day. The committee is to review whether it is possible to make use of the services of public utility societies. It is to review the ideas which are in the air about a housing corporation on a large scale. It will review whether additional powers should be granted in that direction, subject to this condition: There is no question of replacing the direct subsidies which we to-day terminate, by any indirect subsidy. That would indeed be to have the worst of both worlds, to drive subsidies out of the door and let them come back by the window. Indirect subsidies would have an even more powerful effect than direct in discouraging private enterprise and there would be also a large loss of a weapon for the encouragement of municipal enterprise.
  Let me turn from that aspect to the attendant aspects which have occupied much attention in the House. When I introduced this Bill I said that the occasion of this Bill was the occasion of a declaration of war by this House and by the nation against the slums. To-night I will give some further and more particular account of the plan of campaign by which that war is to be carried on. Since those expressions of mine upon Second Reading we have seen a remarkable demonstration of public opinion
  888
  upon this subject all over the country, an expression of public opinion so strong, so warm, as to leave no doubt at all in the minds of any what the resolution of the country is. The Press has declared war on the slums in a determined and effective way. There is a clear demand for action. What action is proposed?
  It is no wonder that there should be a demand for action if we think of the history of the matter. It is 60 years since the first provision was made by Statute for slum clearance, and in all that 60 years the average annual rate of persons affected by the demolition of slums has been less than 3,000. It is 14 years since a subsidy was first devoted to the purpose of slum clearance, and in all those 14 years the number of houses affected by demolitions has been no more than 15,000, a few more than 1,000 a year. There has been no progress adequate to the evil. One is justified in saying that subsidies so far have succeeded only in scratching the surface of the evil of the slums.
  The programme which I have now to announce has for its basis that there shall be no more delay, that we will stand no more trifling with this problem of thé slums. The action that is proposed is as follows: I propose forthwith as Minister of Health to call upon every local authority that is a housing authority to prepare a. survey of its area from the point of view of slums. I do not want to go too much into detail, but there are some circumstances as regards the survey and its consequences which I will mention to the House. I propose to call on every local authority that is a housing authority to follow up that fresh survey with a programme for the abolition of the slums which are revealed by the survey. As I say, I have no wish to go into details on this occasion, but I may give two particulars as regards these programmes. It will be suggested that in these programmes the areas shall be defined which can be dealt with by reconditioning and that as distinct from these, the area shall also be defined which can only be dealt with by the more radical remedy of clearance. We know that the worst of the evil can only be dealt with by clearance and not by re conditioning. We propose that the programmes which are to be prepared following the survey shall establish those two categories,

  889
  namely, areas for clearance and areas for re-conditioning.
  Now we come to the essential. It will be suggested and required that the programme shall state the period within which each of these areas will be dealt with, that is the programmes shall definitely provide a date for the clearing of the clearance areas and the date at which re-conditioning shall be undertaken. It may be that the programme will also provide that where in a re-conditioning area the effects of re-conditioning are exhausted that area should become a clearance area.
  Mr. LANSBURY: On a point of Order. The question often arises during a Debate of this character as to what is in order and what is not. The Minister is now making a statement of public policy which appears to me to be outside the scope of the Bill. I wish to know whether we should be allowed in the further stages of this Third Reading Debate to discuss the right hon. Gentleman's proposals?
  Mr. SPEAKER: I understood that the Minister was stating certain things which he proposed to do under the Bill. Of course, anything outside the scope of the Bill would be out of order. Perhaps the Minister will confirm me on the point that the matters with which he is dealing are not outside the Bill.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOSEPH NALL: Is it not the case that the clearances to which the Minister has referred can not be proceeded with unless the provisions of this Bill are proceeded with at the same time, and therefore the two matters are related.
  Mr. SPEAKER: Perhaps the Minister of Health will confirm me on that point, namely, that what he now proposes comes under the provisions of the Bill.
  Sir H. YOUNG: It is the case, Mr. Speaker, that the action to which I am now referring would only be possible if this Bill were passed and is a necessary consequence of the Bill. As the House will remember, it has been necessary at different stages of the Bill to link up these matters and to have regard both to the question of the subsidy and also to the question of what is proposed as regards dealing with existing conditions.
  Mr. SPEAKER: In that case the Minister's remarks seem to be in order.
  Mr. LANSBURY: I am satisfied so long as I know that we shall be entitled to discuss these matters, but we very often have a position of some doubt arising on a point of this kind. It may be that there will be someone in the Chair who has not heard the previous discussion, and the question may arise subsequently of whether we are in order or not.
  Mr. SPEAKER: That is a position that I am just as anxious to avoid as the right hon. Gentleman. It is for him, as it is for others, not to enter upon the discussion of matters which are not in order, but if hon. Members confine themselves to the discussion of actions which can only be taken if this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, then that seems obviously to be quite in order.
  Major MILNER: I submit that the Minister's statement is not in order. He is dealing with something which has never been mentioned before in these discussions. He states that he proposes, not as a consequence of the Bill but as an administrative decision, to call on local authorities to make surveys and draw up programmes about slum clearance. The Bill has no relation to slum clearance except indirectly in that the Minister has sought to justify doing away with the subsidy on one hand, by saying that, on the other hand, he proposes to urge certain action in regard to slum clearance. It is only in that sense that these matters are in any way related, and I submit that a new statement of policy at this stage of the proceedings is out of order.
  Mr. SPEAKER: As I understood the Minister's statement he was describing what he would be able to do under the Bill if it became an Act of Parliament.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: There is not a single word in the Bill which alters any of the provisions of the 1930 Act with regard to slums and indeed part of my case against the Third Reading of the Bill is that the right hon. Gentleman has been misleading the public by mixing these two things. It is very difficult for us if the Minister is to make new pronouncements of policy at this stage on matters which are irrelevant to the Bill before us.
  Sir J. NALL: May I submit that we are now being asked to give a Third Reading to the Bill which proposes a great change in policy relating to the provision of houses. It seems essential that in the application of these proposals the Minister should have information before him as to conditions in different areas and that information he can only ascertain by making proper application to the local authorities in the manner indicated. Indeed I suggest that the House would not be in order in giving a Third Reading to the Bill unless it was assured that the Minister was taking proper steps to ascertain the need which the Bill is designed to meet.
  Major MILNER: I suggest that the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) is in error. This Bill deals with ordinary housing and not with slum clearance and the two things are not related.
  Mr. LOGAN: I submit that the Minister's statement is relevant only to the question of slum clearance and that we are not dealing with slum clearance in this Bill at all. If the Minister has already the powers for doing what he has suggested then there is no necessity for bringing the matter before the House at all.
  Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE: Is there any reason why Members of the Opposition should object to this information being given by the Minister?
  HON. MEMBERS: None at all.
  Mr. LANSBURY: We do not object at all, but the point which I have raised is very relevant to anyone who follows these discussions as industriously as I do. Occasionally, we come, I will not say into conflict, but into discussion with the Chair, as to what is in order and what is not on these occasions. If you Mr. Speaker rule that we are entitled to discuss the Minister's statement broadly, I am quite satisfied and so are my hon. Friends.
  Sir H. YOUNG: I should be quite unable to commend the Bill to the House or adduce the arguments which are relevant in favour of the Bill without being able either on Second Reading or Third Reading to deal with the consequences which must flow from the Bill. Those matters were dealt with on the Second Reading and I do not understand the anxiety of some hon. Members to limit
  892
  the discussion now. I perfectly understand, however, the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition who only wants to protect his own right of discussion but as to that I imagine he need not have any fear.
  I was observing that there are two matters in connection with these programmes on which special emphasis will be laid; first, the distinction between clearance areas and reconditioning areas and secondly, the fixing of a definite period during which those areas will be dealt with. By means of such a time limit we shall secure for every dweller in the slums the assurance that within that limit of time he will see deliverance from the conditions under which he lives. That is the only means by which we can secure the ending of this evil. I am aware that there are in existence five-year programmes which were prepared under the Act of 1930. They are not sufficient for our present purposes because they were not drawn up with the specific object which we have in view, namely, the concentration of effort upon the ending of the slum. They were drawn up more in relation to the general provision of houses. They must therefore be replaced by these special provisions and programmes.
  Such will be at the outset the part of the local authorities in the campaign which I am now sketching. The part of the Government will be no less direct and clear. Its first part will be the provision of the essential finance through the form of subsidy, such provision of finance as may be required from the Exchequer in order that the work may be proceeded with on an ordered plan and with the greatest possible speed and efficiency. We set no limit to the number of houses that may be thus dealt with. Every house which is unfit for human habitation ought to be dealt with as soon as possible and the quicker the better. That will not exhaust the active part of the Government in this plan of campaign. There will be other essential functions to be discharged by the Ministry.
  There will be the essential function of the stimulation and assistance of the local authorities in the preparation of their surveys and programmes. That is, in the first place, the function of the general inspectors of the Ministry, but we have a certain weight of inertia to lift. A new start has to be made and I propose to

  893
  devote special assistance to the local authorities in the preparation of their surveys and programmes. I propose to do so by means of a flying squad of special experts from the Ministry whose function will be the stimulation of initiative where that stimulation is needed and the giving of technical assistance and advice in the preparation of those programmes. The point on which I dwell is that this work of the preparation and the carrying out of programmes will be required at the hands of the local authorities. There is ample power under the Act of 1930 for the Minister to ensure the carrying out of programmes prepared in consequence of the passage of this Bill. Under Section 52 he is enabled to order local inquiries to be held and, where satisfied after investigation that there has been failure on part of the local authority, he can make an Order declaring that authority in default and directing how and when that default should be remedied. But except in a very clear ease of ultimate need, there would be no putting into force of the powers of that Section. I look in another direction for the real sanction and force behind this fresh attack on the slums. I look to the irresistible force of public opinion to which I have already referred.
  There will be three allies in this campaign. There will be the ally of public pinion. Of that we are sure. The voice of public opinion has been heard in an unmistakable manner of late, and Members of this House can do much in directing and concentrating that public opinion on the conditions of their own divisions. The second ally will be the Government, which will use its whole power and influence to carry out this programme. The third, and essential, ally is the local authorities themselves. I would express warm confidence, not only in the ability, but in the willing enthusiasm of the great bulk of the local authorities to join with the country and the Government in this campaign. They have given proof in the past of their readiness to do so, and I am confident that that readiness will be repeated and increased in the future. I am confident that it will not be necessary to use any of those sanctions and forms of compulsion to which I have referred in order to secure that the essential work shall be done. I am confident also that the local authorities will realise that there is no further
  894
  opportunity for postponement and delay, that the work has got to be done, and that it is the intention of the country and of the Government to see the work through.
  Sir HERBERT SAMUEL: The essence of this matter, of course, is finance, and I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Government would provide the necessary finance. Does that mean that the cost will be borne by the Exchequer rather than by the local authorities?
  Sir H. YOUNG: The necessary finance under the machinery of the Act of 1930; that is, the subsidies which are provided by that Act.
  Sir H. SAMUEL: Will a large charge devolve upon the local authorities?
  Sir H. YOUNG: £3 15s. per house, but the figures under that Act are as familiar to the right hon. Gentleman as to myself. The third partner will be the local authorities, whose willingness to join freely, and in free co-operation, in this campaign I do not doubt.
  Mr. DAVID MASON: Does it not involve fresh legislation?
  Sir H. YOUNG: No. There are many favouring circumstances which will assist the country and the Government in this campaign which now lies before us, and those are the favouring circumstances which are produced by the passage of this Bill. I believe that without the passage of this Bill any such effort would have been foredoomed to failure. Those circumstances are, first, the concentration of the energies of the local authorities upon this work of slum clearance, because it will only be by the work of slum clearance in future that they will be able to attract subsidies of public money for the purposes of the improvement of the housing conditions in their areas, and I am confident that, as good and reasonable authorities, as good and reasonable men, they will be eager and anxious to continue those forms of activity which will enable them to attract money from the Exchequer for the assistance of their areas.
  Major MILNER: On a point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman has been referring for the last 10 minutes to slum clearance alone. He has referred to

  895
  Section 52. There is no Section 52 in this Measure, and he presumably referred, therefore, to the Act of 1930. He is urging local authorities—quite rightly, no doubt, at the proper time—to get on with the Act of 1930, but I submit that the whole of this statement is out of order now, that there is other urgent business before the House, and that it is not right that lie should be permitted to make that statement on the Third Reading of this Bill, a statement which I say, unhesitatingly, deserves a full day's debate, not merely the odd hour or two which we are likely to have tonight. I submit that the right hon. Gentleman should take an early opportunity of putting forward his proposals for pushing on with slum clearance, which in no direct sense arise under this Bill.
  Sir H. YOUNG: I was engaged, when I was interrupted, in pointing out to the House that for a successful attack upon the slums we must have a concentration of the energies of the local authorities, which can only be obtained by the passage of this Bill. The matter, therefore, is not only relevant, it is vital to the Bill itself, and I am very sorry that the hon. and gallant Member has not yet found himself able to understand that fact. The next matter that I would refer to in this connection is the second essential, favourable condition for the success in this operation against the slums which I have described. That is the condition which enables us to pass this Bill, and it is the sharp fall in building costs and in the cost of money. The opportunity for one is the opportunity for the other. By taking advantage of the opportunity to pass the Bill, we set the forces produced by that opportunity free to assist us to clear the slums. The fall in the cost of building operations, their cheapness at the present moment, is the second circumstance that make a favourable condition to carry out this new programme of slum clearance.
  One word as regards the review of the new conditions which will be produced by this Bill that is to be carried out by the Committee, the appointment of which I have announced this afternoon. That Committee will be dealing in particular with any fresh powers which it may be desirable to grant to local authorities in respect of re-conditioning slums, not
  896
  excluding the provision of financial help in order to assist those powers of reconditioning. That Committee will have a most important and valuable task to perform, in relation to the new era produced by this Bill, in order to decide upon what fresh powers it may be useful to add to the existing framework, but I desire to make it particularly clear that no such change in the framework is contemplated as need be looked upon by any local authority as any reason for postponing that survey and that programme to which I have already referred. The way is clear for an immediate start to be made upon the new campaign. I have described a very powerful engine for putting an end to the evil of the slums. In the past there has been a history of failure and disappointment in this respect, and that has been for this reason, I believe, above others, that there has been a divided responsibility, a responsibility divided as between local authorities and the central Government. By such means as I have described, we concentrate that responsibility, because the Government itself accepts the responsibility for undertaking to see this thing through.
  Such are the principal reasons for which I commend this Bill to the House. I commend it to the House as inaugurating an era of greater hope in the meeting of one great need, namely, the provision of small houses for the working classes. I commend it to the House as inaugurating an era, not only of hope, but of assurance in dealing with another great need, namely, the abolition of the slum evil through those steps which I have to-night described. Too long has that last evil existed, too long has the slum acted as a radiating centre of disease, of disease not only of the body, but of the mind and of the social order. I believe that by securing the greater freedom and power which we shall obtain by the passage of this Measure to eliminate the final centre of that great evil, we shall indeed have achieved no small thing. It will be all the more to our credit if we succeed in achieving it at a time of difficulty, because the nation will finally judge us, not by success in times of prosperity, but by the courage and the foresight which are shown in bad times. Tonight we look to the resolution to make use of the opportunity given by this Bill

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  to convert our extremity into an opportunity for the achievement, upon which the Government is determined, of fixing a definite term to the slum evil, a great work in which we enlist the sympathy of the local authorities on the one hand and of the public opinion of the country on the other.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. GREENWOOD: I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and, at the end of the Question, to add the words "upon this day six months."
  The right hon. Gentleman's name will go down in history as that of the second Minister of Health who has conceived nothing constructive in the cause of the housing of the people. The first was the late Lord Melchett, who was given the rather difficult task of liquidating all responsibility under the Addison Act of 1919. His successor, a Conservative Minister of Health, was bound to reestablish the principle of public aid which his predecessor had overthrown, and there will come a successor of the right hon. Gentleman the present Minister of Health who will treat him as ignominiously as the late Lord Melchett was treated by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  In this Bill there is not a single constructive proposal; not one word, not one comma, of the Bill deals either directly or indirectly with the question of slum clearance. There is only one idea in it, and that is not constructive—the idea of a return to the free play of economic forces, the free play of private enterprise. He has not even a friend on the Government Benches in favour of that policy to-day. He is a lone voice crying in the wilderness, using the language of a century ago—I have had to remind him of it before—a lingo unknown since the days of our great grandfathers. He alone stands for a return to private enterprise, and the only idea in his Bill is a return to private enterprise. In the long Title of the Bill we have its scope defined:
  " to bring to an end the power of the Minister of Health to grant subsidies under (the Acts of 1923 and 1924) and to enable him to undertake to make contributions in curtain cases."
  From the day of the Second Reading of this Bill the right hon. Gentleman has been misleading this House and misleading the public. He 'has very carefully and
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  skilfully mixed the destructive provisions of this Bill with slum clearance. There is nothing whatever in agreement between ale two. He has asserted tonight, but not proved, that the solution of the housing problem is to leave the normal provision of houses to the free play of private enterprise, and to get local authorities to concentrate on what I can only call to-day the dirty work of slum clearance. There is no necessary connection of that kind between the two. On the Second Reading the right hon. Gentleman talked of slum clearance, in the country he has talked of slum clearance, the Lord President of the Council made a moving speech in the country in favour of slum clearance, and the right hon. Gentleman comes back to-day on the Third Reading of this Bill, when we thought we were dealing with the rather narrow point of the Bill as it stands now, to tell us of his proposals. I do not call them new, because they arc not new. There is not a single suggestion that he is making except about another committee, and that is not new. Having suffered castigation about the appointment of new committees from hon. Members opposite when I sat on that side of the House, I cannot say that even his proposal for a committee is new.
  It is no good the right hon. Gentleman working himself up into a frenzy to-day about slum clearance and saying, as he said in an earlier part of his speech, that there must be no more delay and no more trifling. The very day that the right hon. Gentleman took office he discouraged the local authorities, and he has pursued that policy persistently and deliberately for nearly 18 months. He has not said to them, "You are the people who might aid us in solving the housing problem." On the contrary, he has discouraged them—not one authority, but scores of authorities. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned a five-year programme, which he said was not enough. There are scores of cases to prove that it was not too big and many local authorities to-day are not building up to the level of the five-year programme. The right hon. Gentleman has discouraged local authorities, he has knocked the heart out of them, and he has done everything he can to destroy municipal enterprise in housing; and now, after 18 months, he appeals to them with his hand on his bosom, and says, "We need the assist

  899
  ante of local authorities to help us in the solution of the problem of the slums."
  Sir JOSEPH NALL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what progress he made when he was Minister?
  Mr. GREENWOOD: I can answer the hon. Gentleman in two ways. I did a good deal more than the right hon. Gentleman, and the situation to-day would have been a good deal better if I had been sitting where the Minister is now sitting. Where do we stand on this great question of slum clearance? What have we been offered? Not a new policy, but a committee. We are being offered reconditioning as a partial solution of the slum problem. The right hon. Gentleman has admitted that that is only a partial, and, indeed, only a minor solution. Where houses are bad, reconditioning is bound to be a hopeless failure and it will not be an economic proposition. I am becoming a little tired, as one who has lived in a second-hand house, of this new policy of passing off the houses of the middle classes to the working classes, only to more of them—one middle-class house being handed over second hand, third hand and fourth hand to four or five working-class families. That kind of thing can be found within a mile of this House; hundreds of middle-class houses not good enough for the middle classes are now being cut into small sandwiches and divided up into working-class houses. If the most that the right hon. Gentleman can suggest, apart from this talk about surveys—which does not mean anything—is a committee to consider the possibility of reconditioning, the solution of this problem will not only be nil, but it will be worth less than nothing, and may possibly be disastrous.
  If time permitted I should like to spend as great a proportion of my speech on irrelevancies as the Minister. He said very little about this Bill. He did not say a great deal about it on Second Reading, and to-night he has said even less. He is trying to cloud the negative character of this Bill by taking advantage of an Act of Parliament for which he was not responsible, and which he is going to supplement by another committee. I do not wish to pursue that question any further, but I wish the House to understand that the right hon.
  900
  Gentleman has not contributed one constructive idea to the solution of the slum problem. He has not altered the law in any way. The law is as the late Labour Government left it in 1931, and it is important that the country should know that, because the Press are giving the impression that the right hon. Gentleman is a kind of crusader in this matter. I remember the Minister of Mines when he was crusading with me. He has now changed sides and is crusading with the present Minister. This is not a new crusade that the right hon. Gentleman has undertaken. He has added no new power behind the movement for slum clearance. His only contribution is to deter local authorities for nearly 18 months, to reduce them to a state of hysteria and panic, and to discourage them from the work that they ought to have been doing.
  A further reason which I have against the Bill is that it is a reversal of an established national policy at a most inopportune time. It has been said that houses can be built without subsidy. That may be true, but that does not answer the question whether they will be built at the lowest price. It does not answer the question whether under the provisions of this Bill houses will be provided for working-class families at the lowest cost and at rents which they can pay. I am certain that in certain areas, both urban and rural, particularly in rural areas, private enterprise will not fill the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman dealt with this point most ineffectively on the Committee stage last week. Private enterprise never has filled the bill. It has not done it effectively in the towns, and it certainly cannot do it in the semi-rural and rural areas; and we are to be left now solely with private enterprise, except, as the Minister admits, for the very difficult and the complicated business of slum clearance. When the building of working-class houses was a costly business, local authorities were allowed to do it. Now that the building of working-class houses appears to provide an opportunity for private profit, private enterprise is to be allowed to come in, and the difficult job of slum clearance is to be left to the local authorities. I can understand hon. Members opposite favouring a return to private enterprise in the building industry. That raises a question in which

  901
  there is a conflict of principle between hon. Members opposite and us.
  Whatever might be the right solution, if the Minister thinks that private enterprise can solve this problem, we ought to have guarantees that it will solve it as well as municipal enterprise. That is a reasonable thing to ask. Ever since the War, we have gradually established under the power of the Minister a national housing standard which is as good as, and in most cases better than, the local building by-laws. We have established a national tradition under public auspices. Houses for the most part have been built by private contract, but under the auspices of the local authorities. If the right hon. Gentleman believes that private enterprise can do this job, surely the House is entitled to ask him to ensure that it will do the job as well as public enterprise has been doing it in the years since the War. A point on which I think there will be universal agreement in the House is that the standard of houses which have been built for working-class families since the War are infinitely higher than the standard before the War. That is all to the good. Having achieved that standard—it may be at very great public expense—we are entitled in this golden era of lower prices and lower rates of interest, about which we have heard so much, to ask that private enterprise shall live up to that standard. The right hon. Gentleman says that Clause 2 of the Bill is not important and is not essential. The point is, however, that he has in that Clause kept a shred of public control. That guarantee, even if it is worth only 8s. per house, gives him a locus standti, an authority in this matter, and it is reasonable to ask that he should use that authority to safeguard housing standards.
  One of the difficulties that we had on Committee stage and again on Report stage of the Bill was the reluctance of the Minister to commit himself to anything. He has to-night, after speeches from all sides of the House, agreed to a, fixed bath, but even that concession does not appear as big as it did when hon. Gentlemen behind him cheered, because he still keeps his discretion. His discretion is worth nothing. If the housing problem of the people is to be treated seriously, there ought to be some kind of statutory authority, not merely the power, but the duty imposed on the
  902
  Minister to see that houses are built adequately according to modern standards. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the changing times in which we are living. Let him remember that there are changing standards in working-class life which have been embodied in scores of thousands of working-class homes. I fear that under the operation of this Bill we shall revert to the old period of unrestricted private enterprise, where the jerry builder and the speculator, careless of the interests of the people who live in their houses, will build the smallest and the meanest type of house because they themselves will not have to live in them. The master builders have expressed their view that this idea of building only 12 houses to the acre is a monstrous waste of land. They do not believe in providing for the people who are to be tenants of their houses the kind of amenities that they want for themselves and their families.
  Without the restraining hand of the Minister I am satisfied that the effect of this Bill will be, within the next three years, to degrade the standard of working-class houses. For that reason alone I should be prepared to vote 'against the Bill. I would vote against every word in this Bill not with pleasure, but with sadness, because it seems to me that this is about the worst possible time to discourage local authorities and to expect that private enterprise, having had imposed on it these ideas of economy, will live up to anything like reasonable standards of working-class houses. The right hon. Gentleman in his final words spoke about cheap capital and low rates of interest, and said that out of this time of adversity we ought to make great progress, and that it would be all the more credit to us if we did. That is perfectly true, but if the right hon. Gentleman means business it is a complete reversal of the Government' policy.
  If local authorities are to forge ahead, then the economy policy of the Government goes to pieces. If it does so I shall be delighted; but I should like to know whether, in making his new declaration about the slums, the right hon. Gentleman has been making a new declaration about economy, though I imagine not. I should say that his dearest ambition is to hand over the housing of the people to those who, in the generations before the War, failed to deal with it effectually. One

  903
  thing has been proved, and that is that the housing of the people is so fundamental to national interests that it cannot be left to the unrestricted play of private enterprise. It is so vital, not merely to physical wellbeing but to moral wellbeing, that there ought to be a Minister's hand upon the wheel. That hand the right hon. Gentleman is prepared, indeed he is anxious, to withdraw, in order that he can get back to an outworn creed which even members of his own Government do not to-day accept. With the Government accepting the principle of intervention in trade, whether through Regulations or tariffs, it has scrapped the old-fashioned ideas for which the right hon. Gentleman alone stands. On the ground that the right hon. Gentleman is really a relic from the past, and not speaking in terms of to-day, I hope this House, elected so lately as 1931, will be prepared with me to reject the Bill.
  8.18 p.m.
  Sir FRANCIS ACLAND: Those with whom I am associated have handed in a reasoned Amendment to this Third Reading Motion, which naturally cannot be called upon. I make no complaint about that, and I will save the time of the House by not even reading it, partly because I understand that it is out of order, and if I were to read it it might be expected that I should frame my speech mainly upon it. I do not intend to do that but to follow definitely on lines which are in order, namely, the Bill, or those extensions naturally arising out of it which were dealt with by the Minister, by leave of the Speaker—I refer to slum clearance and reconditioning. I have been asked to speak on behalf of my party in this matter for what seem to them the good and sufficient reason that my name happens to begin with "A," and that when the party meeting decided that I should speak I chanced not to be present and had no opportunity of suggesting somebody who was better qualified, as at the time I was taking the chair at a meeting of the housing committee of my county council in Devonshire.
  In preparation for my task I have read through the Debates on this Bill, and two points remain definitely in my mind. First of all there is admiration
  904
  for the skill, clarity, persuasiveness and good temper shown by the Minister of Health and the Under-Secretary in their conduct of the Bill. To make a practical point, noticing that the Minister of Health has sat continuously on the Treasury Bench for four and a half hours I shall not take it amiss if he thinks he will be better employed somewhere else than in listening to what I have to say. My second point is that in examining what I have to say I shall not more than I can help dispute the central principle of the Bill which is, of course, to abolish the main housing subsidy. I regard that as more or less settled, and at any rate pretty well everything that can be said about it has been said already. But I think we should not part, either temporarily or permanently, with the Wheatley Act without, in our minds at any rate, paying a tribute of respect and admiration to John Wheatley. His Act was a great personal achievement. It did what, at the time it was passed at any rate, by the admission of all of us, could not have been done in any other way. Many hundreds of thousands of people have good reason to bless his name for having helped to provide houses which otherwise would not have been built; and although this Bill is meant to bury his Act for good and all I would like to suggest, before we do that, and without prejudice to the question of its resurrection, that we ought to pay our tribute to the ardent and high-minded man who was its author.
  Summing up the general results and effects of this Bill, however large may be the majorities here and in another place by which its remaining stages are to be affirmed there will remain anxiety, not only in the minds of its critics but among its supporters, on four main points. First, the question of how, and how quickly, reconditioning can be pressed forward in rural areas. Second, the speed of shun clearance, and in particular the re-housing of those whom slum clearance dispossesses. Third, whether the building societies will adequately perform the important role which this Bill assigns to them. Lastly, whether the machinery which will remain in our rural districts after the main Wheatley subsidies are swept away will provide adequately for the needs of agricultural workers and similar classes. The Minister in his statement just now referred to the fact

  905
  that the new survey which he is intending to have set up at once will cover the question of reconditioning, and he made it clear that it was only with the passing of this Bill that local authorities would be free to tackle it. So be it. If it had not been that even at this eleventh hour, he did include that matter, I am quite sure that the conscience of the House and the nation would have remained profoundly stirred by speeches such as the noble speech of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) on the Second Reading of this Bill. Nothing so far, until, perhaps, the statement of this evening, had set our minds at rest about it. It is a difficult problem, as is shown by the fact that it puzzled even my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who, I see, has taken the Minister's place, and whom I welcome. In the Debate on the Second Reading he looked the problem of reconditioning fairly and squarely in the face and passed it by on the other side. He referred to the necessity for reconditioning which had been urged, and said:
  " I ask: At whose expense? At the expense of the State, the landlord, or the tenant? "—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th December, 1932; col. 649, Vol 273.]
  I respectfully suggest that the Government could not possibly leave the matter there, with a large question mark appended to it. It is much too serious a matter. My knowledge such as it is is rural rather than urban and I want to make a suggestion concerning the Rural Reconditioning Act which is a special Act. The State and the ratepayers helped, but only under rather special conditions, only if the landlord will accept for at, any rate a long period—20 years I think—a considerably lower rate than would be legally enforceable or required under the Rent Restrictions Act. The acceptance of help for reconditioning would carry with it an obligation to keep rents low. It might be possible, not this evening and not perhaps by any Amendment to this Bill—I do not know whether it would be in order in another place—that reconditioning questions in our towns might follow that analogy. That analogy might be useful. Could not owners of bad property be offered help in putting them in order, if rents were effectively reduced and restricted, and, if they declined to agree to that, could they not be forced to recondition at their own expense? It would be a fair offer—
  906
  help from public funds if rents are kept really low, as is the case now in our country districts. Perhaps the survey which is to proceed will take a note of this. Notwithstanding all that is sometimes said in this House about houses owned by poor widows, I do not think that it will be hard, if that offer is made, to insist that reconditioning shall be done. Even the poorest people are forced to have sanitary and suitable premises if they carry on any business, and the business of house-letting is surely important.
  r. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne)I think that the right hon. Gentleman is going far beyond what is in the Bill.
  Sir F. ACLAND: Your intervention was not wholly unexpected, and I admit its justice. My point is that this question of reconditioning, having been raised, must be very definitely pressed forward, even, if necessary, by using new powers in tackling the problem which the Minister now contemplates. I come to what will be more strictly in order, the question of slum clearance. That, we all know, is not only a problem of housing, from which it takes its difficulty, but it is a problem of livelihood. Slums exist mainly in the districts in which large pools of casual labour are required, as near the docks and the railway stations, and, as was recently well said, I think it was in the "New Statesman and Nation," until that sort of labour can be decasualised, it is no use to suggest to the Thames-side docker that he should go and live at Becontree, or to the Merseyside worker that he should go and live in one of the new housing estates provided by the Liverpool Corporation. That is one of the main difficulties that confronts the Minister in his rather newly-developed anxiety that this question should be fundamentally tackled. It is a problem, not of housing only, but if decasualisation and of transport.
  It is not unfair to the Minister to call the attention of the House to the way in which the views of the Government on this matter have developed and improved in the course of these Debates. It is sometimes said that whatever the Government brings in is passed cut-and-dried, without any alteration. Here is a case, in regard to slum clearance, in which public opinion, expressed inside

  907
  and outside this House, has had a real effect upon the Government's mind. I find it difficult to agree with what was said by the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) about the Governments slum-clearance proposals meaning nothing. I think that they are going to mean a very great deal. I am very glad that that part of the speech was declared to be in order. It was new, of course, and it was rather unexpected, but it was very much better to have a statement of that kind now than not at all; better late than never. It shows what I have felt in my practical acquaintance with this matter, that the inspectors in the Minister's Department are not now regarded as they used to be, and as some inspectors still are, as unreasonable, interfering people, who think that they know much better what ought to be done than people who have been devoting half n life-time to housing. Those inspectors are regarded as friends anxious to help.
  I am very glad that the Minister has now announced that he intends to take advantage of that position to have definite plans made with the great municipal authorities for carrying through this job. I was glad that the Minister added that it would be done within a definite time. We know the difficulty of time. None of us expects that slum clearance can be done within one, two or three years. As the Minister said, it has dragged on for 50 or 60 years already. Cannot we take in a favourable light the recent statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we shall have great difficulty in unemployment for the next 10 years, and can we not make up our minds, as the Minister seemed inclined to do, that within that period, shorter, one hopes, the problem shall be tackled and put right? If we knew that for certain, and the Minister's statement this afternoon goes a long way in that direction, we should feel less uneasy about this Bill than some of us have hitherto done. It would do a good deal to lift these questions out of party politics, not only nationally, but locally, and that would be all to the good.
  The Minister has at last realised that. He realises also that definite action is required with the local authorities. Until he said what he said this afternoon, I did not think that he realised quite so fully as some of us do who are actively
  908
  at work in the localities, the change that has come over local authorities in many districts in the last two years. In all authorities, so far as my experience goes, and I expect that the experience of other hon. Members on local authorities is much the same, there are two classes of people, those whose constant inclination it is to explain why things cannot be done, and those who have the power of showing how things can be done and of getting them done. Naturally, and perhaps inevitably—I am not blaming anybody— the economy crisis of nearly two years ago put on top the first class of people who do not wish to spend anything on anything. They were able to bring out into the light of day their constant desire to do little or nothing and to parade it as patriotism. If the statement of the Minister of Health means anything, it surely means that it is no longer patriotic to do as little as possible on our local authorities in this matter of slum clearance.
  It will require more than speeches in this House to reverse the wheels and to convince our local authorities that that is so. The only way in which it can be done is by writing to the local authorities, as the Minister has now said he is going to do, and by sending his experts to confer with them: by mapping out areas and by having a definite programme year by year, until the task is done. It. is a very difficult thing to reverse large engines, and it will require all the effort that the Minister and his Department can put into it to persuade the local authorities that their duty now is something very different from what in so many quarters it has been represented to be for many months past. It will need very purposeful and constructive organic planning if they are to realise that, and we shall watch, and shall, I am sure in no spirit of distrust, want to have accounts from time to time of, the effect that the Minister's action is having on local authorities and how his plans are proceeding, and to have reports from time to time as to how this great work is going forward, as we all now hope, and most of us believe, it is going forward.
  My third point arises directly out of Clause 2 of the Bill. It is as to whether the building societies will adequately perform the large role which the Bill

  909
  assigns to them. I cannot say much about that, because my right hon. Friend the Minister has done me the honour of asking me to serve on a committee which may shed a certain amount of light on that question. There has been some controversy about the Committee's terms of reference, and on that subject it would not be right for me to say anything, but, when I was asked to be a member of the Committee, it did not seem to me to be right that, if one of those who are pursuing the attitude of independence of the Government that we pursue were asked to help, in however small a degree and under however limited terms of reference, he should refuse, because independence in this House seems to me to have its duties as well as its rights.
  I only want to make two points in that regard. I have tried, with the best will in the world, to see where that margin of 10 per cent. is to come from. These houses are not going to be bought, but are going to be leased, and the man who takes a lease will not want to "cash up" the 10 per cent. as a sort of premium before taking his house. That point is also puzzling people who have had a closer connection with the matter than I can claim to have had. The other point that I want to make is this: The terms of reference of that Committee are necessarily official terms, but can the Parliamentary Secretary, or whoever speaks on behalf of the Government before the Bill finally passes away from us, make a little clearer to us than it now is, what the Minister expects from the work of the Committee He must have anxieties about it, or he would not have asked us to help him; but it is difficult to gather from the terms of reference what his anxieties and his desires are.
  I would like to know whether he expects, when the committee reports, that further legislation will be required. I know, of course, what the answer to that question will be, namely, that it depends upon what they report, and when they report, and what the state of Government business is at the time when they report. That, of course, is the proper, the correct and the inevitable official answer to a question of that kind. But it is always easy to give correct answers, and the Minister of Health always does it
  910
  supremely well; but, besides that admirable official side which he shows to the House, he has, as many of us know, an equally admirable human side, and we should be glad to see a little more of that. I know very well, from my own experience, how much more difficult and often injudicious it is to be human than to be official, but, if the Minister would permit himself to think aloud a little more about the really difficult matters ahead in this big new experiment that he is trying with the building societies, we should be glad. It would help public opinion to look forward to what might be coming, and we should like him, if he would trust himself a, little more, even more than we do at present, which is a great deal.
  I come now to my last point, and that is the case of the rural districts. The Minister knows rural England and loves it, and I think I may claim that I do also, but I have, in the matter of housing, this small advantage over him, that, as chairman of my parish council in its capacity as a parochial committee acting for the district council, as a member of a district council which has done a great deal under the Wheatley Act, and as chairman of the Housing Sub-committee of my county council, I have had a certain amount of actual experience of the housing difficulties in the countryside which may not have come in the way of even the Minister himself. It has been said that the Wheatley Act did not help the agricultural worker, and that all that needs doing for him can now be done under the Reconditioning Act and the Slum Clearance Act. With respect, however, I would say that the Wheatley Act did help the agricultural worker, though, perhaps, not directly.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. H. Johnstone) gave a case the other day in which houses built under that Act were let at rents which would have been directly within the power of the agricultural worker to pay; but such instances are not common. What normally happened was that the Wheatley houses, let at rents of from 5s. or 6s. to 7s. or 8s., helped primarily the artisan, the postman, the pensioner, and people of that class—not the week-ender. The idea that Wheatley houses went to, week-enders is a myth, a pure invention. I do not believe that there is a single instance of it from one end of the country

  911
  to another; there have always been tenants more eligible than that. But, when the new council houses were occupied by that slightly superior class from the point of view of ability to pay rent, one of two things always happened instantaneously. I am speaking as regards a very large range of villages. Either bad overcrowding in the villages was mitigated owing to one of two families in a house clearing out and leaving it for the other family, or people of the agricultural worker class, or others who could not afford to pay higher rents than the agricultural worker can afford, moved into the houses out of which the better-off people had moved in order to go into the Wheatley houses. There was an instantaneous closing up, and an instantaneous bettering of housing all round, because it meant that the most insanitary houses ceased to be in demand, and possibly ceased even to be occupied at all—and a very good thing too. But, if it had not been for the progress with council houses, there would have been much less relief and much less improvement in the actual condition of housing for the agricultural worker than there actually has been.
  The cutting short of the Wheatley Act will stop all that, and we shall be thrown back on reconditioning and on the Slum Clearance Act. The right hon. Gentleman made a statement about his plan under the Reconditioning Act. He said that he intended to rely more on district councils in some cases. His statement about relying on district councils for reconditioning was reported in some quarters as if it contemplated a universal and compulsory transfer of powers from the county council to the district councils, but I do not think that anything of that kind was contemplated at all. I think the Minister intends only to use district councils in suitable cases, where he is convinced that that would be the best way of getting some action taken; but his statement has caused doubt in some counties, like my own, where the county council is willing to work the Act as well as it can, and is working it to-day. I hope that that important matter may be cleared up, although it is only a small one.
  Then I would say, let the Minister not hope too much from the action of district councils if and when he transfers
  912
  the present powers of the county council to them. Speaking for a county which I think, when I saw the last figures, had done about one-fifth of the whole work done in England and Wales under the Reconditioning Act, I believe that the reason why we have been able to do so much good in Devonshire has been primarily that we have a very competent and devoted county architect, with his staff, who not only, when he gets schemes, says quite clearly what must be done in order that public money shall be spent upon them, but, in addition, reviews the proposals put forward by the owner, and very often helps to show the owner how he can best do what lie proposes to do, even to the extent, frequently, of practically re-drawing the plans that have been submitted by some' small builder on the unaided ideas of the small owner. District councils cannot do that. They have not the skilled staffs. The surveyor may do his best, but he cannot give the same help as a really experienced architect can do, and neither can district councils maintain the same standard of what they require in order to earn the grant that the county councils can do. Our work in Devonshire is only popular because in each case we can make a good job of the house that is done, often requiring a great deal to be done—extra bedrooms, better sanitation and water supply and so on.
  Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I must warn the hon. Baronet again that he is not making a Third Reading speech.
  Sir F. ACLAND: Perhaps I may be allowed a short reference to the Slum Clearance Act, upon which reliance is placed under the Bill to do a good deal of necessary work in rural districts. I know no department of housing work in which less will be done unless the Minister reverses the engines in the same way that he says he intends to reverse the engines with regard to slum clearance. That Act came at a time which proved unfortunate. It was very soon followed by the economic crisis of 1931. Our local authorities had only begun to get going when the necessity for economy, and stringent economy, arose. In my county only six out of 18 district councils have taken it up. They applied only in respect to 124 dwellings, of which only 47 were approved by the Ministry, and in only about two dozen cases has

  913
  anything been done. That was very likely necessary at the time, but if, as the Minister says, he welcomes action by the local authorities to clear slums in the towns he must also be prepared to welcome similar action in the country districts. I am simply saying the same thing for the country districts as he has said for the towns. He cannot leave things where they are. There must be definite circulars to district councils in the country, just as he intends to send them to the municipalities of the towns, inviting those who have not applied at all under the Act to apply and promising to review the cases that were rejected under the special financial stringency of 18 months ago. It comes to this. Will the same action of asking for active operation in slum clearance be taken in the country as was held out to us as being a definite part of the Minister's policy in the towns?
  A statement was made by the Minister which rather horrified me in its implications. It was that there was not really any considerable need for new houses in rural districts because, judging from the figures that were available, the population is going down. That is the reason that he gave for what is the main purpose of the Bill so far as rural districts are concerned, namely, bringing the subsidy to an end. How much is that decline of our rural population due to bad housing? Cannot the tide be reversed by making better housing available? Can that be tackled satisfactorily only by these acts of reconditioning and slum clearance? The standard of housing has changed—not only the standard provided but the standard expected by the people who are going to live in the houses. The newer generation of young men and women in the last 20 years expect something better for themselves than they were brought up to. Sixty, 80 or 100 years ago cottages were built, as I know on my own estate, mainly with one consideration, and that was warmth. he newer generation seem not to mind about cold as much as the older people did. When you look at the silk stockings and the modest V, you perceive that cold is a secondary matter. But what the older generation did not seem to want so much is air and, above all, light. The newer cottages—the council cottages—now differ entirely from the older ones to which our fathers and grandfathers
  914
  were accustomed in the matter of light more perhaps than in anything else. The young men and women now growing up have got accustomed to light. They see it in their friends' houses in the towns and in the new council houses where their friends live.
  If we are to repopulate the countryside, we must make sure that there shall be available for country workers houses of a different type from what they regard as the pretty, snug, sweet country cottages that they see as they whirl past in their motor cars and take no further real interest in. Houses of the kind that people now want in order that the country districts may be filled up will not be provided by reconditioning, by slum clearance or by private enterprise. The building societies do not operate outside urban areas at all so far as I have heard. I pray that the attitude that the Minister has expressed may not be the last word of this or any other Government. If it is, it will be a disaster to rural England. Rural England deserves better than that.
  8.54 p.m.
  Miss CAZALET: While I feel myself in sympathy with the main provisions of the Bill, I cannot disguise the fact, in spite of what the Minister has said, that I am still somewhat apprehensive with regard to the building by private enterprise of a sufficient number of the smaller houses to let at low rents. I realise that in different parts of the country some of these will be built, but I cannot persuade myself that very much will be done in this direction in big cities such as London, where land is extremely dear, and it is often far more profitable to use it for other purposes, and where there is a crying need for this type of accommodation. The theory on which the abolition of the subsidy is based seems to be sound enough, but, with regard to the really low-rented houses, I fear that the ordinary laws of supply and demand are to-day so complicated by outside factors, such as unemployment and poverty, that they may prove to operate far too slowly for our needs. We have to remember, that if the Rent Restrictions Acts are to cease in five years' time, a great deal of leeway will have to be made up unless decontrol is to bring hardship to many of our people. In the Circular which the Minister of Health issued soon after he

  915
  took office he showed that he was alive to this problem of the smaller type of houses. He concentrated upon their production by local authorities and received a certain amount of success. I think that many of us would be grateful if, in summing up this evening, the Parliamentary Secretary would give us some still further reassurance upon this matter, and also if he would indicate what course he will pursue if the desired type of small houses fails to materialise in sufficient numbers.
  There is one word I should like to say with regard to slum clearance. Everyone in this House must rejoice in the enormous publicity which has been given to this matter up and down the country recently by speeches, by newspaper articles, and, above all, by broadcasts. The declaration of war upon the slums made by the Minister of Health seems to me to open a campaign in which every man and women in this country can unite. It will not be a war which can be won by pegging away. Pegging away in separate units has been the process ever since people first began to talk about slum clearance, which we heard to-night from the Minister was 60 years ago, and we know that this method has only advanced us a mere trench or two, and that, only on certain parts of the line.
  I am very glad that the Minister has asked for a complete survey and programme with regard to slum clearance from every local authority. I look to the waging and the winning of this war for one of the biggest economies that the Government can possibly make. Few of us wish to see any of our social services reduced to the detriment of any section of the community, but who would not rejoice to see a reduction in Government expenditure if it were the result of the healthier conditions of the people, and the immense economy of good housing has been proved over and over again by fact and figure. I welcome very much indeed the appointment of the committee which the Minister has set up to-day, showing, as it does, that the Government are fully alive to every aspect of the housing problem. In supporting the Bill tonight, I look upon it only as the foundation of our future housing policy and in no way as a complete structure in itself.
  8.59 p.m.
  Mr. TINKER: The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) delivered an interesting speech, but it was hardly upon the lines I expected. I understood that the Liberal party were going to oppose the Government tooth and nail, but in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman there was not the vim one expected, probably it was because he might not have been present at the meeting. If I had been on the Government benches, I should have thought that the whole trend of his speech was more in praise of the Bill than against it. If this is a sample of the opposition of the Liberal party, they will have to become more full hearted than has been the case upon this Measure to-night. I dare say that they are retiring carefully and perhaps do not want to throw over their friends so badly at the outset, but it is a poor exhibition of the fight which I understood they intended to put up.
  The Minister of Health, in dealing with the Bill—and I listened very carefully— did not seem to he very happy. He appeared to cover up his retreat by eulogising the Greenwood Act of 1930. Indeed, anybody listening to him who had not read the Bill but had read the Greenwood Act, would have thought that he was dealing with the Greenwood Act, that he was going to put greater pressure upon its application, and that, although it had been somewhat lax up to now, his job as Minister of Health was to see that its progress became greater. That seemed to be practically the object of a large part of his speech to-night. Whether it was because he wanted to obscure the real issue of the Bill or not, I do not know. The Bill tells us clearly that no contributions will be made in the future, apart from what is held to come under slum clearance. It means that for the future private enterprise will be given full opportunity in dealing with the housing problem of this country.
  I understood the Minister to say that he was backed up by public opinion upon this matter. I should like to know what public opinion? The letters which I have received from my constituency, from every council, appeal to me to try and get the subsidy kept on. I have written to them asking if they have sent a communication to the Minister of Health,

  917
  and I have received an affirmative reply to the effect that they have made their protest to him as they have made it to me. Therefore, however the Minister of Health can say that he has public opinion behind him in putting a stop to the giving of the subsidy, I fail to see. I should be interested to know from the Minister, or from the Parliamentary Secretary, whence they get their public opinion?
  Another point brought forward in speeches by the Minister of Health is that money is cheaper now and that because of that fact we shall get better houses, at rents almost equal to what obtains under municipalities. Is the Minister dealing fairly with the municipalities by taking from them, when money is cheaper, an opportunity of putting up the type of houses required by the people? Surely, if they were able to pass through the hard times when money was dear and were able to meet the situation in the manner they did, they are entitled to a further lease while money is cheaper and should be given an opportunity of dealing with the problem and enjoying the privileges now being given to private enterprise. The Minister is himself the last remnant standing for private enterprise. I do not think that on the whole of the Government Benches there is a man equal to the Minister of Health in taking a stand for private enterprise, and I believe that he is now determined to give, once and for all, a further opportunity to private enterprise. He thinks that here is their greatest chance. Everything is in their favour, cheap money, the Government is defending them, and every opportunity which can be given, is to be given to them by the Minister of Health.
  We on these benches feel, after the experience which we have had, that housing by private enterprise has absolutely failed. We ought not at a time like this to allow the question to pass from our grasp. It is unfair to the House of Commons and to the people in the country to hand it back to a body of men who have already had an opportunity and have failed to provide for the necessities of the people. It is on these grounds that, as a last effort, we are raising our voices in protest. We know very well, as the House is at present constituted, that we shall not be able to suc-
  918
  ceed, but we should be lacking in our duty to the people we represent if we did not take a stand to-day and show our discontent. I trust that the Liberal Members will go into the Lobby with us, as I understand they will, so that we may give the greatest vote we can against the Third Reading of a Bill which cannot b a success but must be an absolute failur as time goes on.
  9.6 p.m.
  Sir JONAH WALKER SMITH: I was a little surprised at the dissertation by the Minister upon the matter of slum clearance, because I have failed to observe any mention whatever of slum clearance in the Bill. I was not, however, particularly surprised at the terms in which he made his reference to slum clearance. I have become so accustomed to proclamations of that kind from that Box. Many times has that particular Front Bench laboured and a very ridiculous mouse has been born as a result of it. I thought that at first it must be an attempt on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to draw a, red herring across our path and to divert our attention from the possible practical effects of this Bill. I was not impressed with the fact that the Minister intends to have a survey, a programme and certain periods and dates prescribed, when various things will be done. There is nothing new in that. There have been many programmes and many surveys and extremely little has been done.
  I was not impressed with the Minister's intention to use the big stick upon the local authorities in case, forsooth, they should not proceed with more diligence in slum clearance. The Minister has had that big stick in his hand for a considerable time and other Ministers before him have had the big stick, but nothing have they done in regard to it. I can only conclude that the dissertation must have been used for the purpose of letting it be inferred by the House that for the purpose of re-housing the dispossessed from the slums an enormous number of new houses will be required. The inference that we were presumbly asked to draw from the right hon. Gentleman's observations was that a large number of houses will be built. That is a matter on which I propose to offer a few observations. I am in entire agreement with the right hon. Member for Wakefield

  919
  (Mr. Greenwood) when he said that it is not quite so much a question of legislation or statutory powers for the purpose of producing houses as it is a question of energetic and effective administration. I have not noticed that the administration of housing by the Minister of Health has been particularly effective and energetic in the matter of producing houses. As far as it has been within the power of the present Minister to restrict the flow of houses under the Housing Acts, he has restricted it. He has restricted it to the extent of 50 per cent. compared with the number of houses that were approved during previous years. Compared with previous years the total is only half of what it was. That is an indication of the energy with which he applies himself to the production of houses.
  He now proposes to use his flying squad, or whatever it may be, and he hopes that it will be efficient and effective. I could have wished that he had used it efficiently and effectively under the Housing Act which was passed in 1931, whereby it was anticipated that about 40,000 houses would be built within 12 months. I think the flying squad must have been in cold storage, for in 18 months there has been arranged to be built about 400 houses. I am at one with the right hon. Member for Wakefield when he says that this is very largely a question of effective administration, but I am not at one with him when he says that the housing standards are greatly endangered by this particular Measure. I do not think that in regard to such houses as may be built—I do not think there will be a great number built—the standards will be gravely affected, when it is remembered that those who may be sufficiently intrepid as to venture upon the building of houses under this particular Bill will first have to run the gamut of the building societies, who will have a great deal to say in regard to standards, then the gamut of the local authorities, and also the gamut of the Minister of Health. I do not think they will get through that filtration any houses of an unsatisfactory standard. If they happen to pass through that filtration, it must be borne in mind that the houses are not houses readily to be got off the hands of the builders or of the persons who may be responsible for providing the
  920
  houses. They are to be let and to be held as an investment. Unless the builder is extremely unwise he must remember that the houses must be made sufficiently attractive to attract tenants at decent rentals, and also sufficiently well built to prevent his being mulcted in very large subsequent costs. Therefore, the question of the standard of the houses will not be seriously affected.
  The Minister relies upon various means for providing houses after having removed by Clause I subsidies of all kinds. He relies first upon private enterprise, secondly upon the local authorities, and thirdly upon private enterprise assisted by the building societies. I could have understood the right hon. Gentleman relying upon private enterprise if it had not been for the second Clause. I could have understood it if he had relied upon the first Clause and then said: "For the remainder, I rely enirely upon the free play of economic forces. I leave it entirely to private enterprise to build such houses and at such rents as they like, and if they make large profits, it will create competition." But he does not do that. He does not leave it to the free play of private enterprise. He now tells the whole world that he is setting up a committee who are going to consider a great number of questions, including the establishment of a National Housing Corporation, or something of that kind. Is that an encouragement to private enterprise? Not at all. Private enterprise will say: "We do not know what may come of this. We had better wait a bit, and see." By the provisions of Clause 2 he proposes to give certain guarantees. Those guarantees are to be from the State, from the local authorities and from money supposedly at a lower rate of interest on a very large percentage of the total valuation. Is that encouraging to private enterprise in the ordinary way? Not at all. Private enterprise will stand back and say: "We had better wait and see what is coming along."
  If it is a question of opportunism, the right hon. Gentleman has judged well the time to get rid of subsidies. But he has deluded himself into the belief that the cost of houses at the present time represents the market value. They do not. The manner in which he gets his low costs is simplicity itself. It is a simple device. He carried it to extreme lengths in the

  921
  case of the Rural Workers Act, 1931. Instead of getting a large number of houses built he passed a comb through and through every application, and, naturally, he ultimately only approved a small number of houses. He takes the aggregate and deludes himself into the belief that the average cost is very low. Having deluded himself in this way and by juggling with these fantastic figures he comes to the conclusion that the average cost is this very low figure. It is absurd. His first line of defence fails.
  His second line of defence is the local authorities. I do not know what the local authorities are going to say to him. I do not know what their reaction is going to be to the removal of the subsidy. They have been receiving this subsidy for years and have been supplying houses, now, through the Minister of Health, His Majesty's Government announce that it is to be taken away from them, that it is going to be scrapped. I am afraid that their reaction will be the reverse of what the right hon. Gentleman anticipates. It will certainly be so in the case of rural authorities. Rural authorities have had at their disposal £14 15s. by way of subsidy, and they have not been able to supply the goods. The whole of that has now gone, and the Minister of Health comes along with his big stick and says" get along with the work." Is it not absurd to think that he can have any possible success under arrangements of that kind? That disposes of his second line of defence.
  His third line is the arrangement with the building societies. I am really perturbed in regard to this arrangement. My first fear is that building societies are really not seriously intended to operate this particular Clause of the Bill. I have no doubt that they will do so if they have heaps of money to spare and have Ho better use to which to put it but they are not in the least likely to do it if they can find any other outlet for their money. I do not suppose that they have any such enormous sums of money available. If they have gone carefully into the question of the valuation of their assets they will come to this unfortunate conclusion, that they have no enormous sums of money because the fact that prices have been falling rapidly will show that their assets are not particularly well secured.
  922
  They may believe that the flow of money will continue into their coffers. I quite agree that it has been flowing into the coffers of building societies for some years; but why has it been flowing there? It has not been coming from the class of person who was originally expected to make his investments in building societies. It has come from the capitalist class, who thought that it was a fairly safe and lucrative form of investment. They have put their money into building societies, not in shillings and pounds, but in thousands of pounds, up to £5,000. That is where the money has been coming from, simply because it was looked upon as good security. Furthermore, building societies have been able to pay fairly high rates of interest, comparatively high rates, and they have been able to do so because they made arrangements with the Inland Revenue whereby they have escaped about one-half of the normal Income Tax. Now the Inland Revenue people are alive to this, and they have made such alterations that building societies will have to pay twice the Income Tax which they have previously paid; with the consequence that money will not flow freely and rapidly into the coffers of building societies as it has done in the past.
  Imagine, however, that these difficulties are overcome and that an intrepid developer decides to try his luck under this scheme. He purchases his land and prepares his scheme. He submits it to the building society. The building society may say," we will have nothing whatever to do with your scheme. We do not like the land; we do not like the plans; we do not like anything about it. We do not want to argue the point with you; there is no money for you." But they may think that there may be some money in it and tell the developer that the rate of interest is at such a rate. The developer may think that it is not quite so favourable as he anticipated. The society say," never mind, take it, or leave it." Then in regard to the question of valuation, the building society is bound to look into this matter as they intend to advance 90 per cent. of the money, whereas previously they have been accustomed to advance 70 per cent., on a rather good class of house to be occupied by the owner. They may say, "our security is not quite so good and we shall have to be much less optimistic

  923
  in making our valuation." Therefore, the valuation will be low and the developer will be disappointed.
  If these difficulties are overcome and the developer decides to carry on, he goes to the local authority. The local authority is not pleased to see him. They will be either keen on housing or they will not be keen. If they are keen they will want to build the houses themselves and continue under some such arrangements as they have been working under in the past. Those authorities which are particularly keen on housing will not be particularly keen to give him the guarantee. He will find the cold shoulder there. And those local authorities which are not keen, there is no reason why they should enter into any such guarantee at all. Whether the developer goes to those authorities which are keen or to those which are not, he is going to get the cold shoulder just the same.
  But suppose all these difficulties are surmounted, there is still another in the person of the Minister of Health. He goes into all these questions, into the number of houses to be erected per acre, into the superficial area, in feet and inches; he is going to fix paths, he is going into any mortal thing that he cares to inquire into. Is it conceivable that many houses will be built under arrangements of this kind? That is the whole idea of a Bill which the Minister of Health has introduced for his great attack upon slum clearance. He thinks that under this Measure he will get an enormous number of houses built. I do not agree with him. No one knows better than I what effective administration will do at any time. Under the administration of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer no less than 300,000 houses were built in one year, and they employed about 600,000 operatives. Now we are down to a miserable dribble. Much could be done with greater drive and greater administrative efficiency.
  9.24 p.m.
  Major NATHAN: No more formidable or devastating attack will be made upon the Bill than that which has just been made by the hon. Member for Barrow (Sir. T. Walker Smith), and it is all the more formidable and devastating because the hon. Member speaks with exceptional knowledge, experience and authority on
  924
  the subject. The grave and serious statement which the hon. Member has just made deserves the most serious attention of the House in considering its action upon this Bill. I take it for granted that the hon. Member for Barrow will show his courage and independence, will show that he is prepared to give practical expression, as far as an hon. Member can, to the sentiments he has just expressed, by going into the Lobby with those who will vote in opposition to the Third Reading. The statement made by the Minister in moving the Third Reading was a very important and remarkable statement. It neither depended upon nor emerged naturally from anything in the Bill before the House. Indeed, it could have been made equally well long before this Bill was ever introduced. As I followed his statement, the action he is proposing to take depends not upon the contents of the Bill but upon the provisions contained in the Housing Act, 1930. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman say he desired to give an assurance of deliverance to every dweller in the slums and desired to see every house unfit for human habitation dealt with, and the quicker the better; and when, last of all, he said that the Government accepted responsibility for seeing this through, I asked myself why, since the right hon. Gentleman has been Minister of Health from the autumn of 1931, we had to wait for this statement and this policy until the spring of 1933. As far as I can see, there is nothing lacking in the powers of the Minister that would not have enabled him to have made that statement when he first took office.
  If, in contradistinction to the administration of the Government in general, the right hon. Gentleman really does propose to follow his words by definite, speedy and precise action, he may rely on Members in every part of this House to support him in carrying through his policy. But what is the policy and programme which the right hon. Gentleman placed before the House on the part of the Government? There is to be a survey. We need no Housing Bill of 1933 to enable him to call for that survey. There is to be an invitation to local authorities to produce a. programme for reconditioning and clearance. All that spade work might have been undertaken months ago and both the survey

  925
  and the programme could have been ready, complete and available so that immediate action could be taken now, were it not for the dilatoriness for which this Government have been so remarkable in every department of public life during the last 18 months. When it comes to action, what do the Government propose to do? The right hon. Gentleman said—and I took down his words—that the Government was the second element in this programme, the others being the local authorities and the force of public opinion. What do the Government propose to do? They propose to stimulate and assist the local authorities in the preparation of the survey and of their programme. Hon. Members desire to know from the Government whether they are going to stimulate and assist the local authorities in building the houses. On that point the right hon. Gentleman, in answer to an interjection, merely replied that the assistance to be given by the Government would be what the assistance had been for some years past. The subsidy would remain as under the 1930 Act and the Government, as far as action on their part was concerned in relation to the building of houses, proposed to do nothing more. I believe that the stimulus of any Government Department, if exercised with energy, may be a very valuable factor, but I should be far more interested to know what action the Government were themselves going to take.
  I speak in this House as one who claims upon this subject to have knowledge only of London conditions. The proposals made by the right hon. Gentleman may, for all I know, be of some effect outside London. Upon that I express no opinion one way or the other. As far as London is concerned, I am satisfied that his proposals will he completely ineffective. I invite his attention to the position of such a borough as that which I have the honour to represent, Bethnal Green, which is on the outskirts of the City and one of the inner boroughs of East London. The local housing authority of Bethnal Green is the Bethnal Green Borough Council, but, as the local housing authority, that body has no jurisdiction outside the area of Bethnal Green. That borough is one of the most thickly congested in the country and I believe is the second or the
  926
  third most thickly populated and overcrowded in the country. There is, in Bethnal Green, and such areas as Bethnal Green in the inner circle of London boroughs, no elbow-room at all to deal with overcrowding and the removal of slums. It is largely a question of decanting, and there is no place in which the displaced population can be decanted within the area under the jurisdiction of the borough council of Bethnal Green. I am not speaking of large areas for decanting. I do not believe that I am using the language of exaggeration, and I certainly have no desire to do so, but I say that there are not half a dozen tenements or houses or rooms fit for habitation available for this purpose in the whole of the borough of Bethnal Green.
  When you deal with the housing problem in such an area by way of reconditioning or slum clearance, you must, unless you are to displace the local population, try to find some place in which they can be housed while the work is being done. In Bethnal Green there is no such area. Unless the local park, one of the lungs of that over-populated, densely peopled district be absorbed for the purpose, there is literally no place in which arrangements can be made for the housing of the people during slum clearance and reconditioning unless the population is to be removed. If it is to be removed, it has to be removed outside the jurisdiction of the borough council of Bethnal Green, and they have no power to remove it outside their own area. Suppose the London County Council, which, to a certain extent, has powers concurrently with the local authority, were to provide provision for decanting them, it cannot provide it nearer than Becontree or Dagenham. That involves a time 'and transport problem, quite apart from the difficulty of the London County Council, or indeed its willingness to find accommodation for the displaced people.
  I do not wish in anything I say to be purely destructive. I would make it clear to the Minister and the House that in my deliberate judgment, after making an examination of the matter over a period of years, I am satisfied that such a. Bill as this is quite useless for the purpose of relieving congestion or improving the conditions of those who live in such

  927
  an inner borough as Bethnal Green. But I suggest this to the Minister, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary when he replies may find it possible to deal with the matter: London presents an extraordinarily complex problem, and it is a problem quite different from that of any other part in the country. I suggest that just as a committee has been set up for various purposes in relation to housing this afternoon, so a special committee should be set up to examine the special problem of the reconditioning of houses and slum clearance in London, to deal comprehensively with the whole problem of London housing. It is not a simple problem. I am fully aware of the fact that the inquiry cannot be either simple or short, but it is mighty well worth undertaking, for upon a correct solution of the problem, if the beginnings of it are not delayed too long, depend the life and health and happiness not of tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands, but of millions of our people living almost within a stone's throw of this House.
  9.38 p.m.
  Sir JOSEPH NALL: It is a very extraordinary thing that hon. Gentlemen in their attacks on this Bill have entirely forgotten what has become so apparent to the public at large, not only at the present time, but for some years past, namely, that the efforts of local authorities in house building down the years since the first Act of 1919 have entirely failed to provide the kind of house that was wanted at the amount of rent that the people most in need of houses could afford to pay. I recollect getting up in this House in 1924 or 1925 and pointing out that in those days the administration of housing schemes by the local authorities was entirely futile to meet the most pressing needs even of that time. From that time onward the need has remained unmet year after year. Local authorities in which the Labour party have either predominated or have had a large share of the say, have been some of the worst in that administration, and some of the most extravagant in the application of public funds in this matter.
  In no part of the country can this question be more acute than in the city of Manchester, part of which I represent. The Manchester Corporation have indeed constructed widespread and very attrac
  928
  tive housing estates, some of the most extravagantly planned and achieved in the whole of this sorry housing story—rents of 18s. and 25s. a week, as if such houses were any contribution for the type of people who for years have been paying 9s. or 10s. a week without any cost of transport to their homes. I was very glad that the Minister, in moving the Third Reading of the Bill, in spite of the protestations of the Labour party, who obviously did not want to hear what the Government intend to do, made it clear that this Bill is necessarily linked up with the major question of slum clearance, to which the public has lately become more alive. The whole sorry story of slum clearance, or the failure to proceed with it, has been largely due to the fact that, to use the words of the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood), "the local authorities would not do the dirty work." What are local authorities for if not to do the dirty work? That is their job. But on this housing question they have always failed to face up to the dirty work; they have gone on with the mild and pleasant job of building brand-new estates in open country, where no kind of problem presented itself, and where they occasionally have had demonstrations and exhibits of the latest thing in housing at the highest possible rent. They have neglected the dirty work, one of the prime duties of local authorities.
  The right hon. Member for Wakefield told us that he personally objected to living in a second-hand house. It is an extraordinary thing that the Labour party should be very anxious to get back to the second-hand houses of Downing Street, and the right hon. Gentleman himself was very glad to come back to this House on a second-hand election, after losing his seat in the General Election. It would become the Labour party far more in their alleged representation of the working classes if they would drop the cant to which reference has been made, and decant for the time being, not the population of the crowded areas, but decant from the humbug which they have used on this subject.
  On this matter of the clearance of so-called slum areas, what the House must realise is that it is impossible in many instances for local authorities to proceed with so-called clearances when there was no possibility of housing the population

  929
  elsewhere. That is what happened in Manchester. For over two years now that part of the city which I represent has been very considerably perturbed by proposals to clear an area of 1,000 houses, involving the summary dispersal of 4,000 people under the provisions of what is called the Greenwood Act— 4,000 people threatened with summary dispersal, with a loss of some £20,000 revenue per year to, the city rates, and the utter ruin of traders in the adjacent main streets. That scheme was solemnly passed by the Manchester City Council, put before the Ministry of Health for approval without any real effort being made to provide alternative accommodation, and in spite of the fact that a previous scheme which had been carried out in the same area resulted in a large tract of derelict land being left undeveloped for several years. It is undeveloped to this day.
  Clearance schemes of that kind are of no use whatever unless accompanied by the active provision of dwellings in which the people concerned can afford to live. Schemes of that kind are of no use if they deal with one area of a city and have no regard to the needs of the rest of the locality. That is what has happened in Manchester and I was glad to hear the Minister say that he is going to insist on complete surveys of the areas of local authorities, and on a clear programme from each authority as to what is to be done as a result of that survey and that to that programme is to be attached a time schedule. That is essential. That was not done in the case of Manchester. The Corporation, willy-nilly, adopted a scheme for clearing 1,000 houses without any regard to the time to be occupied or the cost of dealing with the rest of the city's bad areas on the same lines, in spite of the fact that even in my own constituency and in some other parts of the city areas could be found in a far worse condition than the larger part of the area which they proposed to clear.
  I suggest to the Minister that it would facilitate matters considerably if local authorities were instructed and guided as to the advantage of adopting schemes for areas which are not too large and which do not involve controversies as to whether 50 per cent. of the area and of the properties within the area are sufficiently bad to require this treatment. In Manchester nothing has been done during
  930
  all these years in the matter of clearance because the area scheduled has been too large and has included a large proportion of property in respect of which no case could be made out for demolition. If they had proceeded reasonably and properly with smaller areas—possibly with several areas containing really bad property— something might have been done provided the schemes were accompanied by adequate provision for housing the dispossessed people.
  This Bill is indissolubly linked up with that problem. Under this Bill local authorities will no longer be able to fritter away their own and the State's resources in the provision of garden city villas for the well-to-do. The local authorities will now have to deal with the smaller and cheaper type of house and particularly they will have to direct their attention to the real business of clearing away the inferior dwellings in the poorer areas. Private enterprise will be called in to provide houses for those people who can afford to pay an economic rent and the building societies will be encouraged to build a smaller type of house within the limits that have been indicated. That is the obvious and proper conclusion to this long-drawn-out story of extravagance and waste which has accompanied public policy in housing down the last 10 years or so.
  At long last when millions from the public purse have been dispersed in subsidising houses for those who can well afford to pay an economic rent—when the poorest people in my constituency are paying several pence a week through the local rates to subsidise houses in garden suburbs for those who can well afford to pay an economic rent—at long last that kind of thing is to be stopped. The extravagance of highbrow municipalities is to be curbed and they are to be directed to come down to the ground floor of bard facts and deal with things as they are. The Labour party know that they will no longer be able to gibe at the party to which I belong, if this Bill is carried into law, if private enterprise is restored to the place which it ought to occupy in the housing picture, and if local authorities are required to do their function and to look after the dirty work of cleaning up the areas which it is their job to adminster. It is high time that the local authorities realised their duties and got on with those duties

  931
  more effectively than they have done in the past.
  I am not saying this from any unkind feeling towards the local authorities but I served upstairs for three years on Private Bill Committees and I say frankly after my experience of listening to the promotion of Bills by local authorities that I have never come across such incompetence and humbug as we find in the realm of local government. Let them get on with their proper job of looking after the poorer members of their communities and administering the Acts of Parliament which are there for their guidance. Let the Minister know that he has the support of this House in pressing for a proper survey of the clearance and housing requirements of our great cities. Certainly, in Manchester he will not be short of support in pressing for a common-sense, reasonable plan as against the wild and extravagant policy pursued in the past. Whatever may be the gibes of that futile and ineffective remnant of what was once called the Labour Government, let the Minister realise that it is not only Members of this House who support the present Government, so long as they deal sensibly with whatever topic may come up, but that a great volume of public opinion outside will support him and the Government in insisting upon the economic and common-sense administration of those public funds which it is right and proper to devote to this very acute and important problem.
  3 p.m.
  ir GEORGE GILLETTI am rather surprised that in to-day's Debate so few references have been made to the extraordinary changes in regard to the cost of building and interest charges which have so altered the situation since two years ago. It seemed to me that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) spoke in a way which was rather surprising in view of those changes, because, without having due regard to them one cannot fully appreciate the importance of this Bill. If houses can be built without having to go to the Government or the local authorities for any kind of subsidy then I suppose no one in this House is anxious that a subsidy should be given. If a house can be provided without subsidy for the man who is paying 15s. a week why should not the fact be recognised? In
  932
  the case of the house for the man who pays 12s. a week, two years ago that house could not be provided without subsidy. To-day it can be provided without subsidy and I cannot see why we should not recognise the profound change which has taken place in house building because of the fall in building prices and in the cost of money, which can now be procured at a cheaper rate than was possible previously.
  I have also been rather surprised that it has been taken for granted that because these subsidies are going to be removed, a large share of the building of working-class houses will necessarily be taken away from the municipal authorities. The London County Council 25 years ago, I remember, used to build houses on a purely economic basis, and at that time no one suggested that a subsidy should be given or considered it necessary, and surely many of the arguments to-day have been those of hon. Members who seem to have settled down to the idea that a subsidy is essential for the provision of working-class houses. Even if we recognise that the poorer among the working classes can only get a decent house if there is a subsidy, surely the changes that have taken place in the cost of building and in the price of money lower the rate of subsidy required. Therefore, if the Government are satisfied that, these changes having taken place, the removal of the subsidy will mean that houses can be built by private enterprise, I cannot see that there is any principle involved.
  I represent a borough very similar to that of the hon. and gallant Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Major Nathan) in respect to overcrowding. In fact, a few years ago the figures for overcrowding in my borough were the worst in the whole of London. The hon. and gallant Member asked what effect the changes proposed by the Government would have on the borough of Bethnal Green, and I ask the same question in regard to the borough of Finsbury, which I represent. When I look at the facilities that were given to the centre of London three years ago, I find that the London County Council was then building in certain areas outside the county of London, working-class houses to which some of those who lived in our constituencies were able to go and live. They were able to afford the fares, and they

  933
  were glad to go outside to live. We also had in Finsbury the advantage that came to the borough council of being able to erect some buildings with the subsidy which they received, but to a large extent vacant land in Finsbury has been covered.
  With regard to slum property in Finsbury, however, I was talking the other day to a member of the London County Council, who was, and may be to-day is, the chairman of the housing committee of that body, and he spoke of two of the worst slums in Finsbury, which I have known for 30 or 40 years, and which for years have been scheduled by the London County Council for clearance. During all this period, when all these so-called advantages have been in the hands of the London County Council and the borough council, those slums have never been cleared. I therefore welcome the statement, of the Government and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health to-day with regard to slum clearance. When the hon. and gallant Member for North-East Bethnal Green asks why this was not done 18 months ago, surely he knows that many of the factors that have made it possible to-day were not in existence 18 months ago. The great financial schemes for converting the War Loan had not gone through, and the fall in the value of money had not taken place. Until you had got this change in the value of money you had not got to the position where you could approach the problem and say that subsidies were no longer required.
  Major NATHAN: The change in the value of money has no relevance to my argument, which was that the survey and the programme, neither of which require money, could have been made, and might well have been made, and they would then have been ready by now, so that advantage might have been taken of the changed rates of money here and now.
  Sir G. GILLETT: I do not think the hon. and gallant Member's explanation has cleared the position at all. Most hon. Members will agree that the subsidy will not be required to the same extent, and I agree that some hon. Members may say that to abolish the whole subsidy is too rapid and that it should have been reduced. That is quite open to argument, but. until you had got
  934
  that out of the way, you could not have concentrated upon the slum clearance schemes which the Government now propose. It is not always possible to see so far ahead as 18 months. For instance, we do not know the exact time when it is advisable to walk across the Floor of the House. [An HON. MEMBER: "You walked across."] The hon. Member is wrong; I stayed on this side. As far as the borough of Finsbury is concerned, it seems to me that one great advantage is the concentration upon the slum clearance question. When this Measure was introduced, I interviewed one of the greatest authorities in London on the housing question, a man who is not connected with any political party whatsoever, and I asked him what effect it would have upon the borough that I represent. He assured me that, in his opinion, I would get for Finsbury more in the way of slum clearance than I could have got in any way under the existing subsidies. Therefore, it seems to me that the proposals of the Government are certainly well worth supporting by one who represents a division like Finsbury.
  The hon. and gallant Member for North-East Bethnal Green stated that there was no site on which you could build the houses that were required except the parks. I can only hope that the question of building on the parks will be investigated in connection with slum clearance. I do not say that it is advisable to build on the park suggested by the hon. and gallant Member, but it is quite a reasonable thing that in central London, where you have parks, you should build on one of these parks and then, in a general scheme of slum clearance, you should afterwards arrange that a new open space should be developed in some other division of London. One of the great difficulties in connection with our parks in London is that there are large numbers of open spaces in one part and densely populated areas, with hardly an open space at all, in another part. If in a slum clearance scheme you can rearrange the parks of London, I see no harm in it at all. There seems to me to be nothing sacred about a park, and that a piece of park might well be used in order to provide the necessary accommodation for those whom you may clear from your slums.

  935
  I hope that in this question, as in so many others, the very widest views will be taken, because unless that is done, I am certain we shall not make any headway. I welcome the proposals of the Government. I agree entirely that this question of the subsidy is an experiment to a certain extent, but I believe that the right hon. Gentleman has retained sufficient control over some of the schemes that are now before him to enable him to extend them, if it is found that at first private enterprise is too slow in stepping in to fill up the gap. I hope, at the same time, that the Government will keep a very careful eye upon the general building problem of some of our great centres. I do not know whether this committee, whose appointment I welcome, will consider the question of public utility corporations. I think it very likely, and I believe that in all probability it will be found that there are large sums of money available which such a corporation could use if required, and that possibly the formation of societies of this kind might help to coordinate the building of houses. I am sure that some body, at any rate in a great district like London, where there is an area which even the London County Council does not cover, with a control and a little oversight over the whole problem, is needed if we are to have schemes of building which will meet the needs of the people.
  It is not alone a question of building of houses. There is interlinked with it the whole problem of traffic, and, unless we have some body of men who are to be responsible for where the houses are to be placed and how the workers are to find the necessary traffic facilities to get into the centre of London, we may simply drift into confusion. I do not see why the local authorities, working hand in hand with such a body, should not be able to control the extension of London. In that way we may find in the scheme which the Government have brought forward, that at long last a real attempt is being made to deal with the slum problem of London.
  10.8 p.m.
  Major MILNER: This has been a most remarkable Third Reading Debate. When the Minister moved the Second Reading of the Bill, he devoted nine-tenths of his
  936
  speech to claiming credit for doing away with the subsidy, and onely one-tenth to mentioning incidentally that this was the occasion for pushing on with slum clearance. The principal claim he made for the Bill was that it would help on the general economy schemes of the Government. To-day, on Third Reading, the right hon. Gentleman reversed that position. He spent nine-tenths of his time in addressing himself to slum clearance, and said very little of the advantages which he claimed for the Bill on the previous occasion. That example appears to have been followed by the great majority of the speakers from the Government side of the House, including the hon. Member for Finsbury (Sir D. Gillett), who still seems to be suffering from the effects of the dinner which I observe the Conservative party gave him the other night. We have also had a tirade from the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall), who, I am told by those who have sat in the House for a long time, has never on a previous occasion raised his voice in support of any provision which helped in the direction of clearing away slums in Manchester or anywhere else.
  What is the reason for this remarkable change of front? When the right hon. Gentleman first brought forward this Bill, it was received with a chorus of disapproval from every housing authority in the country. Every architect of repute, every association which has to deal with housing, the Municipal Corporations Association, and many other bodies expressed in no uncertain terms their entire disapproval of the Bill and their belief in its absolute uselessness. Then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) made on Second Reading a most moving speech, and expressed himself, as other speakers who followed him did, as being profoundly disappointed with the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman had to make, and urged him to take some steps in the direction of dealing with the slum problem. These factors, among others, have made the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that his Bill was a complete failure, and that he had better change his direction and camouflage the whole situation by putting forward slum clearance in the forefront of his policy. Slum clearance does not appear in any sense in this Bill. All that appears is

  937
  the abolition of the subsidy, which has been condemned by housing authorities. Discussions in the House have had some effect on the right hon. Gentleman's policy.
  It is a matter of congratulation to us on this side that he is to turn his attention to making use of the Act of 1930, which was passed in the teeth of a good deal of opposition from Conservative Members, and which has enabled the right hon. Gentleman to draw up his proposals for slum clearance. The discussions have also served another useful purpose. They have brought the right hon. Gentleman to heel in regard to cutting off the subsidy instantly on the 7th December, as he proposed in the first instance. He 'has now agreed, subject to the consent of Treasury, to deal on their merits with applications coining in after that date. That is a considerable advantage which has been gained by debate. Then to-day, under pressure from all parts of the House, he agreed to stipulate that a fixed bath should be placed in the houses approved under this Bill. He refused, however, to agree to that bath being placed in a bathroom, so that presumably baths will still have to be placed in cellars or outhouses or kitchens or in front of the hearth, where there will be little more privacy than exists to-day in the majority of working-class houses. The Bill is likely to prove a complete failure in the purpose for which it was introduced, and the right hon. Gentleman himself must recognise that because of the line that he took to-night in turning his attention for the most part to slum clearance, and in hardly dealing with the provisions of the Bill at all.
  It will not produce the goods. It may produce some goods, but it will not produce goods with the proper amenities or under the conditions of workmanship and so on which are, in the belief of the great majority of Members, required. It will produce profits, no doubt, or some profits for those who take advantage of the proposals. It will certainly not produce houses at rents which those who want them can afford to pay, and in this I am supported by most housing authorities, including Sir Ernest Simon. An hon. Member who is a very good friend of mine rather unintentionally misled the House by indicating that building societies did not favour baths in houses. That might have
  938
  been said by a director of a building society, but it would be an injustice to building societies in general to say that they did not believe in baths. That point does not really affect building societies at all, because they make their advances on valuations, and a bath would be included in any such valuation.
  I would put one or two questions with reference to building societies to the Parliamentary Secretary, if he is to reply. I see that some of these societies lend now to owner-occupiers in the London area at 5¼per cent. May we hope that the societies, in accordance with the promises or representations made to this House by the right hon. Gentleman, will be willing to lend at 4¼ per cent.—one per cent. less than the case of owner-occupiers? If they do, I certainly think that building societies will render a very useful service indeed. I feel confident that they are only likely to lend as sensible business men. If they can invest their money by lending it to owner-occupiers at 5 or 5¼ per cent. they are more likely to do so than to lend it under this Bill at 4¼ or 4» per cent. In view of the chorus of disapproval which this Bill has met with in all parts of the country and in this House, from every quarter of which has come criticism of one point or another, I submit that the House ought not to give it a Third Reading.
  10.17 p.m.
  Mr. LOGAN: I would like to make a few remarks in respect of one or two points arising out of the Bill, though at one time I had intended to say a good deal about it, and I may add, should have kept those remarks more strictly to the Bill instead of matters of future legislation. There are one or two points to which the Minister ought to give attention. I trust the Minister is listening. In the City of Liverpool we have been able to buy property adjoining Lord Derby's estate and if we had developed that land we should have been able to put up many houses. If we stop house building some housing body or some speculative person will build on that particular estate. What I want to know is how the present Bill will meet a situation where 1,000 or 6,000 houses may be erected on a large site—where a satellite town may come into existence.

  939
  We are going to give building societies authority to build houses. This is no smiling matter. If hon. Members are smiling at my remarks I trust they will pay attention to the question of where we shall find ourselves under this legislation when the speculator comes' along to take matters out of the hands of the municipalities. We shall require churches, schools, baths, and libraries. I want to know whether uncontrolled power is to be given to these building societies and others in the matter of rentals and as regards churches and the possession of schools. Under present arrangements, when housing estates are being developed in our cities, we give to churches of all denominations the power of acquiring land for a church at about 5s. per yard. Is it to be the case that there will be no question of reversion back to the municipality, and that the church may be called upon to pay £2 or it may be 30s. a square yard?
  I am putting these questions because I am interested in housing estates. No mention has been made about churches. The Minister has spoken about houses but he has told us nothing about the amenities that are requisite in housing estates. There is the question of shops, and of which shops will have the opportunity of preferential treatment over other shopping areas which are set up in a particular area. There is the question of whether increased rentals may be charged. I want to know these things in regard to the amenities that are going to make up the satellite towns, because that is presumably what will be the result in the outer areas of our cities when building takes place by the building societies. In regard to those obligations of churches, schools, baths, libraries and shops, apart from the houses, how are the Government going to deal with the question of site values, whether they are to be freehold or what they are to be? We have a right to know. The municipality will no longer be able to deal with these matters, and the Minister thinks that the enterprise of private individuals is going to meet the situation. I am convinced that the Bill is of no use whatever in regard to the housing of the people.
  We were gratuitously insulted by the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall). I do not expect to get very much manners from Manchester. [Interruption.] No.
  940
  I put it the reverse way, rather. When I was reminded earlier by the Minister that he did not think that one of my colleagues on these benches had the mentality to understand the position and the questions raised in the Bill, I did not wonder that he wanted a moving bath in a house. lie reminded me of Diogenes in a tub. One would expect that a Minister would not gratuitously insult an hon. Member who was a Member of a learned profession. We expect insults, and we do not expect to get any thanks.
  I am not here concerned whether we have insults or thanks in the British House of Commons; I am here to consider the questions that have been raised in regard to this Bill. We are told that under private enterprise we are to have cheaper houses. We were distinctly told by the Minister in the House a few days ago that rents would be dearer and that the subsidy had got to end. Our houses are to cost us more. I am not able to appreciate that the withdrawing of the subsidy is going to give us cheaper houses. I am wondering when we will achieve the alluring prospect in the outer part of our city of Liverpool, where the artisans and the middle-class who can pay the rentals are offered facilities outside the city, and whether our people who are located in a, congested area are to get the slum clearance which is forecast—and which has no right to be spoken of, because it is not before us to-night.
  I am interested in housing conditions, because I know the difficulties. As one who has had something to do with housing in a locality, I ask the Minister how he is going to deal with the special problem of those properties which I have mentioned. I do not see any solution. I see, instead, a free gift to the private speculator to get any price he likes for the site of church, chapel, library, or baths, without any control by a Ministry or any interference because of this Bill. There will be no interference with those who are going to exploit people on questions of rental or site value. When we in Liverpool have purchased land which we could fully develop, so as to give, with the low rates of interest, facilities for the housing of our people, I think it is rather late in the day to give to private individuals the right of exploitation of those who have been able to secure sites and will have to surrender them when these private individuals come along.

  941
  The problems to which I have referred are problems which, I think ought to be answered, and I shall be pleased if the Minister will give an answer.
  10.26 p.m.
  Mr. McENTEE: My criticism of this Bill is that it will not produce housing, and I think that every Housing Bill ought to be judged by that test. So far as the small houses are concerned, under the Bill the rents must necessarily be higher than they otherwise would be. When the Minister states, as he did to-day and as he did on a previous occasion, that there is only a difference of a few coppers between the rent under these new conditions and the rent that prevailed under the old conditions, I would say, with all due respect, that either he does not know what he is talking about or he is endeavouring to mislead the House. The subsidy of £7 10s. a year represents 2s. 1d. per week. The Minister and his officials know that perfectly well, and there is no Member of the House who knows anything at all about housing and the value of the subsidy who would not agree with me that that approximately is the value of the subsidy to-day.
  If that be so, how can the Minister or anyone else say that those people who at present cannot get houses at rents they can afford to pay will, after the subsidy, which is valued at 2s. 1d. per week, is taken away, be able or more likely to secure houses at reasonable rents? I should have been glad if some Member could have given me some indication of how that can be done, and I shall be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary, who appears to be going to reply, is able to tell the House how, after the withdrawal of the subsidy which was given to the local authority and passed on by them to the tenant in the form of reduced rent, and which is valued at 2s. 1d. per week, he or anyone else can say that it will be possible to let houses to tenants at a rent approximating to the rent that exists to-day. It is just sheer nonsense to talk, as the Minister and many others have in this Debate, about the fall in the prices of materials and in the rate of interest. Those conditions exist to-day, before the passing of the Bill, and they will exist to-morrow, immediately after the passing of the Bill, but the fact remains that the value of the
  942
  subsidy will be withdrawn, and, having been withdrawn, it must either be added to the rent, and consequently the rents must be higher, or it must be paid by somebody, and the only people that could pay it under the Bill would be either the builders themselves or the building societies. No one in his senses imagines that either of them is going to pay it, and everyone must know perfectly well that one of the main effects of the Bill will be to increase the rents of the people who get houses under the new conditions that the Bill sets up.
  I was extremely interested in the conversion of the Minister to the principles of the 1930 Act. I have waited rather patiently for a couple of years in the hope that he would do something to put that Act into operation effectively, and the Minister to-day, it appeared to me for the purpose of covering up the ineffectiveness of this Bill, dealt with an Act of Parliament which he has had the opportunity of administering, if be desired to do so, for the past two years but which he and the Department have taken no steps whatever to put into effect. He knows it, the Parliamentary Secretary knows it, every official in his Department knows it, and every Member of the Government knows it. They have taken every possible opportunity to delay the Act, to put it back and to make it as ineffective as they could during the last two years, and this death-bed repentance of theirs and the promise to do something better in the future is rather late in the day.
  After all, what is this new policy that he has declared? He says they are going to have an inquiry. He could have had an inquiry under the existing. law two years ago. That is not a new power under this Bill. He says, further, that they are going to ask the local authorities to have a programme. He could have done that two years ago. That is not a new power under the Bill. Then he says, "If they do not do this, we are going to come down upon them," in very much the same way as the Church comes down on the unfortunate people who live in foreign countries and do not live up to our standard of religious teaching. He is going to send them a tract, and tell them that they are very bad boys. He appears to imagine that the circular is going to stir them up. If they do not sumbit to the authority of the Ministry

  943
  on receiving and reading the tract, he is going to send a missionary to them in the form of an inspector from the Department. One of our troubles in regard to housing in the past has not been that we needed any of these tracts, or missionaries, but that we had too many of them, and were prevented from getting on with the job of housing both under the Slum and Clearance and other Acts by the multiplicity of tracts and inspectors, and people who held up very often by ridiculous inquiries the actual building of the houses. This Bill will not give any new houses as far as I can see. I am very much concerned also, as one who was sent here by a population almost entirely working class, to know to what extent the working classes who are going to build those houses are to be protected.
  As a member of a local authority, I see that we are losing the subsidy. The local authorities are not only losing the subsidy themselves but, in addition, they are to be compelled to pay a subsidy to someone else, or to guarantee it in the event of loss. Why should we do it? Why should we be compelled by this Ministry to take up a guarantee to enable people to say that their profits in the future will be certain? We used to hear a good deal from the Minister himself about the risk that the capitalist class take, but that risk, as far as this Bill is concerned, has gone altogether. They are to take no risk in the future worth speaking of. The risk is to be taken by the municipality and the Government, who each take two-thirds of the extra 20 per cent. risk, and only 6⅔ is to be taken by the people who gain all the profit. There is to be no sharing of any proportion of profit if it arises. It is not suggested that the municipality shall take 6⅔ of the profit. We are only coming in if a loss is sustained. We shall have to bear the loss in the form of additional rates. We have far too many burdens to bear already. There is not a local authority in the country which will thank the Minister for adding the extra burden and the risk.
  The Bill itself is bad in every respect. It gives no protection to working men, and takes away that which they have already under local authorities. It will add extra burdens upon the ratepayers in
  944
  the form of losses which they will have to bear, and it will put an extra burden upon the taxpayer in a similar way. It is private enterprise alone which can make a profit out of it at the expense of the public. The Bill will be carried, but ii will not fulfil its supposed purpose, which is the building of houses. It will fulfil its real purpose in the eyes of the Minister, which is, to enable private enterprise to exploit the public further and get larger profits than they otherwise would.
  10.37 p.m.
  Mr. HICKS: I rise to support the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). We are a little behind the schedule, but it only goes to indicate how very seriously Members of the House of Commons view the proposal to change entirely the methods which have recently been employed for house building. Our main reason for supporting the rejection of the Bill is that, instead of shouting" full steam ahead "as far as housing is concerned, the Bill puts the housing machinery into reverse gear. That is very definitely my feeling in regard to the Bill. That the machinery which we have built up with ever so much patience, care, anxiety and skill over the past 12 or 13 years should now drop into disuse, or be dealt with very gingerly, is a profound mistake in dealing with the housing problem. As all my hon. Friends have stated, and also the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Sir J. Walker Smith) —and I congratulate him—who reinforced our arguments very substantially, we are now to have house building, as far as providing new houses are concerned apart from slum clearance, left in the hands of private enterprise. We shall be as pleased as the Minister will be happy if they are able to produce the houses, but we are satisfied in our own minds that private enterprise, particularly through the agencies which have been suggested, will be unequal to the task of providing the houses in anything like the number required.
  The hon. Lady the Member for East Islington (Miss Cazalet) asked the Minister to indicate, in the event of the houses not coming up to the number the Minister required, what steps they proposed to take. What do you think is the number that ought to be built by private enter

  945
  price? If we were to state that we should regard the production of 200,000 houses a year as not being a very big proportion of houses that should be built, but quite good, and if we had fewer than 100,000 houses being built by private enterprise, would the Minister then think that private enterprise was not equal to the task? If they built fewer than 50,000 houses in one year under the Bill, at what stage would the Minister regard private enterprise as not being equal to the task of providing the houses?
  For the life of me, and this will be the only chance I shall have to explain my opinion, I am unable to see how the building societies can lend money cheap enough for the building of the houses. If the building societies are guaranteeing to their members 4 per cent. interest, without tax, and if it requires at least 1 per cent. for administration expenses, I cannot see how the building societies can lend money at 4 per cent. What right have we to ask people who invest their money in building societies to lend their money for housing, any more than we have a right to ask anyone else who invests money in materials or other things, or in the selling or conveyancing of land, to lend their money at a particularly cheap rate because they are connected with a certain organisation. There is no morality or righteousness in that. I am unable to see how the building societies can do it. I have never decried the building societies. I have said on many occasions that many people who own their own houses to-day would not have done so had it not been for the agency of the building societies. The societies have done very good work and there is plenty of scope for them to carry on without this proposal of the Government to scrap the whole of the machinery for house building, which we have built up over so many years, and put in its place something which has nothing definite about it. There has been no building society that has stated that it is coming in. There is no pledge in any way. We have to rely upon the word that they are willing to do so in response to the appeal that may be made to them.
  The cost of building has been very substantially reduced. It has come down to such an extent that anyone who knowsanything about building would regard it now as being very economical. The Minister and the local authorities have done very
  946
  good work in that respect. Those of us who know how high prices have been responsible at certain times for the holding up of building activities have never failed to appreciate the efforts to bring costs down to as near an economic level as possible. It is possible to build cheaply without building shoddy. Cheap building need not necessarily be shoddy building. Cheapness is a relative term. We have relatively cheap building to-day. The standard of building has advanced very substantially and the quality has advanced also. When the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) was speaking I could not understand his mental approach to this problem. He referred to the statement about dirty work by the right hon. Member for Wakefield. The dirty work to which the right hon. Member for Wakefield referred were the slums that the municipalities had to clear. The municipalities have not been responsible for building the slums. The same sort of private enterprise that built the slums are now being handed the job again.
  Sir J. NALL: What the right hon. Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) said was that he objected to the local authorities being called upon to do the dirty work of clearing the slums.
  Mr. HICKS: The point was that the local authorities have this job to do. I am very sorry that it has not been done without them, but apparently private enterprise is unable to tackle the problem. I was sorry to hear the hon. Member refer to the type of houses built by municipal authorities. They are not the type which will degenerate into slums. It, would be as well if hon. Members would not endeavour to tackle 20th century problems with 19th century ideas. I submit that the standard of building has substantially advanced, and we should congratulate ourselves upon it, and do all we can to maintain the standard. I have grave apprehensions regarding the unrestricted form of private enterprise which is to have the job of erecting houses under this Bill. I am rather apprehensive as to the type of house we shall get. We want to give our people something more than a mere form of shelter from the blast. We should give them something substantial something in which they can take a pride. I am afraid that under this Bill the jerry

  947
  builders will get a great deal of the work. I am not afraid of the large building concerns, dozens of them who are members of the Employers' Association, who have many years' experience behind them and who know their job, but I am of those people who because they have won a crossword puzzle think it gives them an excuse to exploit the public as house builders. I am afraid that the jerry builder will come into this question. Take the type of house which he has built. It is generally a beautiful looking house, with pebble front or rough casting, but that is only a veneer to cover very shoddy work generally; the worst type of building.
  Mr. PIKE: Is that the type of house which was built under direct labour?
  Mr. HICKS: I should have thought houses built by direct labour did not require a clerk of works to exercise constant vigilance. In nearly every house built by private enterprise you were so afraid of the quality of the material not corning up to specification that you had to have a permanent policeman on the job, a clerk of works, to see that the quality of the timber used was up to specification and the proportion of sand to cement was correct. When the builder's labourer was asked what was the usual proportion he said, "fifty-fifty," one-half sand and the other half sand; but that on occasions it varied in the proportion of six to one, that is six of sand and one of water. I know something about the building trade and I have warned the House before that there is nothing which lends itself to greater adulteration than house building. The unrestricted competition which will go on, and the prices which will be imposed, will produce this kind of handicap, together with many other things.
  Putty and paint cover an enormous number of sins in the jerry-builder's houses. Hon. Members should remember the sort of working-class houses that are often put up, and it would be a good thing if they could live in some of them. There are such points as the windows, the hinges on the doors and the screws. There is the quality of the slates and the number of nails that are put in the slates; and the question of the chimneys, the gables and so on. A clerk of the works is necessary if you want healthy
  948
  houses, with good damp-proof courses and good sanitary conditions, not damp-proof only from the bottom but from the top, which will prevent rain coming in and draughts and other defects. Unless you get this valuable machinery, which I am very anxious to preserve, that has been built up by firms of great repute available for the use of the country, then what an hon. Gentleman referred to the other night about nailing the skirting and picture railing into the gas pipe, will be repeated.
  Another point is as to the labour in the building trade which has been made available as a consequence of the appeals of successive Governments for an increase in the personnel of the industry. We had the whole of the Press and the Government pleading with the building trade operatives to increase the personnel, and the result is to-day there are hundreds of thousands of them standing idle. Some 30 per cent. of them are unemployed, and a large proportion are underemployed. I am apprehensive as to whether the fair wage provision will apply. I made these proposals when we were in Committee, but was unable to get them acepted. The Minister told the House that he would do the best he could in the circumstances by sending out a circular about fair wages. I am very desirous that this should be in the hands of reputable builders and skilled labourers, working trade union hours, in order that they may be able to build the type of house which shall not be shoddy or adulterated, but fit for people to live in.
  I am also very concerned about the question of the size of the houses. What right have we to-day, for the purpose of our own convenience, to agree to a type of house which in another 40 years may become slums and thus hand on to a successive generation the same kind of problem with which we are faced now? The Minister here is pleading for the tackling of the slums. So we all are for there are over 3,000,000 people living in them. Everyone is agreed that they must be tackled—every social writer, sanitary inspector, medical officer and social worker deplores the abominable condition of the slums, but while we are doing that, I hope we shall take very severe steps to see that we are not going to have in future the same kind of shoddy jerry-building which has

  949
  degenerated into slums. The hon. Member for St. Albans (Sir F. Fremantle) is nodding his head, and I am sure we shall get his support. We always do until we go to vote. He always gives us great encouragement in advocating these things and speaks with fluency in favour of them. He has a sort of progressive squint in his eye, but sees reaction when it comes to voting.
  I want to see the widespread poverty in housing reviewed, and something more achieved than we are doing at present. Instead of reversing the engine of progress we ought to be getting up full speed so as to go straight ahead. I am sorry that the Minister has not availed himself of our practical proposals for amending the Bill. I am sorry that he has not accepted proposals to extend the period of the subsidy, and to take greater powers to himself where local authorities have made substantial progress in the purchase of land. I am sure that the problem as a whole is much bigger than this House yet realises. It certainly requires bigger and better treatment than this Bill provides. We are dissatisfied with the Bill. In our opinion it is reactionary in its general propositions, and we shall be obliged to vote against it.
  10.56 p.m.
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: Those who have sat through the Debate will agree that it has been the most useful and the most vital of all the discussions that we have had. I have been asked to answer innumerable questions, and I hope no one will accuse me of discourtesy if I do not now answer the old questions that have been put to me. I will answer the new questions that have been raised, in the order in which I have them here. The hon. and gallant Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Major Nathan) referred to the problem of London, which is rather different from the problem of any other city. He talked about reconditioning. At this late hour I have not time to develop my argument at length, but I would say to the hon. and gallant Member that if he will pay a visit to Kensington he will see reconditioning going on there as well as it can be done. It is being done under the guidance of Lord Balfour of Burleigh. I invite him to spend a day there and to see the possibilities of reconditioning and of the improvement area. I wish the
  950
  authorities in London would explore more the improvement area procedure.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) brought a blast of ozone into our Debate, and- I welcomed his speech. It was not merely a sentimental contribution but the speech of a practical idealist. I know the area to which he referred. We shall welcome the hon. and gallant Gentleman's help, in co-operation with that of the Manchester Corporation, in resolving their difficulties. I had the opportunity lately of conferring with the Manchester authorities, and I am extremely hopeful that they, with the assistance of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, will be able to solve some of the difficult slum problems that have been worrying Manchester for so long. The right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) made a constructive speech and asked a number of questions. He asked who would pay the 10 per cent. under the guarantee. I presume that the investor will. If the builder is the investor, as on occasion he may be, the 10 per cent. will be his money. If not, the mortgage will be assigned from the builder to the investor, and the investor will take over the mortgage and need put up only 10 per cent. That is to say, if the house costs £360 the investor will take over the mortgage from the building society either direct or through the builder, who will assign it to him, and the investor need put up only £36, and then have the house. That is subject, of course, to the terms of the mortgage. He then spoke of reconditioning, and I am glad to recognise that in his county of Devon they had done more in that respect than in any other county. He said that that was largely due to the county architect, but I think that my right hon. Friend had as much to do with it as anyone. We are not compulsorily transferring powers from the county councils to the rural district councils, but in those cases where a county council is not operating a scheme and a rural council wishes to operate it, we shall assign powers to them. He also asked if we would take steps to galvanise the rural authorities in the matter of slum clearance as well as the urban authorities. I can assure him that we shall consider what is the best way of doing so, whether by circular or otherwise, but we are very anxious that the

  951
  rural authorities, together with the urban authorities, shall get a move on with this problem.
  I was rather disappointed in the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for South-East Leeds (Major Milner). He spoke as though he were annoyed with us for having tackled the slum problem and did his best by raising points of Order to see that the problem was not discussed. I know the hon. and gallant Member's interest in the slum problem, but that was the impression which he conveyed to the House. Surely this is a bigger question than any point of Order, and any time which we can spend on the discussion of such a big problem is not wasted. He asked me what--if the rate of interest on a mortgage in London were 5¼ per cent.—would be the rate under our scheme. In that case it would be 4i per cent. or 1 per cent. below the current rate. The hon. Member for the Scotland division of Liverpool (Mr. Logan) is to be congratulated on having raised a completely new point which was a rather difficult thing to do at the end of a Debate lasting over several days. He asked what about the satellite towns? He asked if private enterprise was to build 1,000 houses what we were going to do about the church, the chapel, the shop, the school. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or the public house."] The short answer is that now that the town planning measure has become law—and perhaps the hon. Member saw: the circular in this morning's paper—the local authority will have the right to schedule or zone the area and reserve certain sites for public offices, churches, and so forth.
  The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) asked how many houses private enterprise was going to build. The assurance which we have is that they will build enough houses to provide habitations for all those now on the unsatisfied lists of the local authorities. The chief point of his attack, however, is that he is afraid that under our scheme the standard of housing will deteriorate. I know that he is very anxious, as all of us are, to maintain the housing standard but he appears to fear that private enterprise will build the same sort of houses as were built 100 years ago. There is not a scintilla of justification for that
  952
  view, and not a shred of evidence to support it. There is all the force of enlightened public opinion, there are modern by-laws, the new Town and Country Planning Act, and if all these do not prove effective, there is the building societies' guarantee to ensure a satisfactory standard. I cannot imagine the surveyor of a building society guaranteeing any property which is below a decent standard. My feeling is that now that we have brought the building societies into it and their surveyors who have so much experience, the standard is more likely to improve than to deteriorate. Many hard things have been said about this Bill. The Leader of the Opposition said it was a revolution. When I was a boy I used to be told that the advance towards Socialism was the same thing as a revolution. We have gone a long way along the road towards Socialism if, when we suggest a healthy return to private enterprise, that is called a revolution. Anyhow, if it is a revolution, it is one which I can positively recommend to the House. Another criticism levelled against this Bill is that because the subsidy stops, therefore all building stops. The "Daily Herald" went so far, when the Bill came out, as to say:
  " Already the disastrous policy by the Treasury has virtually building."
  A month later, however, on the 26th January, it said:
  " NEW BUILDING BOOM PREDICTED FOR BRITAIN.
  Britain is on the way to a great building boom. This definite prediction ran now be made following the publication of Ministry of Labour figures showing that new building about to he undertaken exceeds in value the record figure of £ 19,000,000."
  Then it goes on to show how this will happen, and how the plans of houses passed in the last three months of 1932 constituted a new record higher than the peak figure of 1929.
  Mr. LOGAN: Journalistic enterprise!
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: It may be journalism, but sometimes the cruel facts of truth escape even the vigilant pen of the sub-editor. In regard to slum clearance, I do not think that there is anybody in any part of the country who did not welcome the statement of my right hon. Friend that this problem of slum clearance was going to be put in the

  953
  forefront of our efforts. Not only are we going to call upon the local authorities for a survey and a programme, but we want a time-table of progress. The conditions are set fair and; favourable. There was no good doing these things until this Bill had passed the House. With the present cost of building and with the price of money what it is and the subsidy as high as it is, as I have said before in answer to questions, the subsidy under the 1930 Act is equal to a rent subsidy of 5s. a week. With that subsidy a house can now be let at 6s. or 7s. a week all-in, a new house, which should give a habitation to the poorest paid tenant in a slum area, and he can afford that rent.
  I am sure that everyone rejoices that my right hon. Friend has made such a vital and vigorous statement, that we are going to press on with this question of slum clearance as it has never been tackled before. You can take two lines on slum clearance. You can say, "No, that is wrong. The only hope for the slum dweller is to go on building Wheatley houses." That is why some hon. Members opposite have criticised us. They say, "Get on with the Wheatley subsidy. That is the only way of clearing the slums." I suggest that if we kept on the Wheatley subsidy, the subsidy would be pooled with the subsidy under the 1919 and 1924 Acts, and instead of giving the advantage of cheap building and low rents to future tenants, that subsidy would be used to reduce the high rents under the Addison Act and the 1924 Act.
  Mr. HICKS: No.
  Mr. SHAKESPEARE: It is no good the hon. Gentleman saying "No," because at least three hon. Members behind him are nodding their heads and saying "Yes." You can either keep on the Wheatley subsidy, when the benefit might not accrue to the new tenant, but might be spread over the whole of the new construction after the War; or you
  could do what my right hon. Friend set out to do—abolish the 1924 subsidy and so let private enterprise build the equivalent of the council houses, let the local authorities do what the right hon. Gentleman opposite calls the dirty work. In other words, you must articulate slum clearance with new construction. As long as there are slums, there will be slum dwellers. If you can abolish the slums and articulate slum clearance with new construction, there is a chance of making a dent in the slum problem in the next five years. As one who has taken a great interest in the subject, and who, during the Recess, took the opportunity of studying it wherever I could, I am profoundly convinced that the cessation of the 1924 subsidy is the necessary preliminary and condition precedent to a real forward drive in the attack on this problem. I cannot speak more plainly than that.
  I think I have dealt with every point that has been raised. I do wish that we could take this question of slum clearance out of party politics. We will give the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood) all the credit he wants. We have taken his Act, and we find it useful. We can make a tremendous administrative drive to see that local authorities do tackle the problem, but do not let us treat this as a party business. It does not matter two hoots who gets the credit as long as in the next five years a record number of people get out of the slums. I do not care two-pence who gets the credit. It will need the assistance of the local authorities, all the public opinion we can get and the influence of every Member if we are to-make any real inroads into this problem in the next five years. I look upon the votes against this Bill as direct votes against slum clearance.
  Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided: Ayes, 233; Noes, 66.

  Division No. 70.]

  AYES.

  [11.13 p.m.

  Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

  Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)

  Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)

  Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds,w.)

  Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th.C.)

  Brass, Captain Sir William

  Agnew, Lieut.-Com. p. G.

  Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)

  Briscoe, Capt. Richard George

  Albery, Irving James

  Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman

  Broadbent, Colonel John

  Anstruther-Gray, W J.

  Bllndell, James

  Brocklebank, C. E. R.

  Atholl, Duchess of

  Bossom, A. C.

  Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)

  Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

  Boulton, W. W.

  Brown, Ernest (Lelth)

  Balnlel, Lord

  Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton

  Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)

  Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

  Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.

  Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.

  Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell

  Bralthwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. B.)

  Burghley, Lord

  Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie

  Hornby, Frank

  Pybus, Percy John

  Burnett, John George

  Horobln, Ian M.

  Raikes, Henry V. A. M.

  Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)

  Horsbrugh, Florence

  Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)

  Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)

  Howard, Tom Forrest

  Ramsden, Sir Eugene

  Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm

  Howltt, Dr. Alfred B.

  Rankin, Robert

  Caporn, Arthur Cecil

  Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)

  Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hume, Sir George Hopwood

  Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham-

  Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)

  Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)

  Remer, John R.

  Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)

  Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.

  Ropner, Colonel L.

  Clarry, Reginald George

  Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)

  Rosbotham, Sir Samuel

  Cobb, Sir Cyril

  James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.

  Ross Taylor, Waiter (Woodbridge)

  Colfox, Major William Philip

  Jamieson, Douglas

  Runge, Norah Cecil

  Colman, N. C. D.

  Ker, J. Campbell

  Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)

  Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.

  Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)

  Rutherford, John (Edmonton)

  Conant, Ft. J. E.

  Kerr, Hamilton W.

  Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)

  Cook, Thomas A.

  Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton

  Salt, Edward W.

  Cooke, Douglas

  Latham, Sir Herbert Paul

  Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

  Copeland, Ida

  Law, Sir Alfred

  Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart

  Courtauld, Major John Sewell

  Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)

  Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard

  Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.

  Leckie, J. A.

  Savery, Samuel Servington

  Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry

  Leech, Dr. J. W.

  Selley, Harry R.

  Craven-Ellis, William

  Leighton, Major B. E. P.

  Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.

  Crooke, J. Smedley

  Lennox-Boyd, A. T.

  Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)

  Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)

  Llddall, Walter S.

  Shaw, Captain William T. (Forlar)

  Croom-Johnson, R. P.

  Lindsay, Noel Ker

  Skelton, Archibald Noel

  Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard

  Llewellin, Major John J.

  Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)

  Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)

  Lloyd, Geoffrey

  Smith, R. w. (Ab'rd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)

  Denman, Hon. R, D.

  Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander

  Smith-Carington, Neville W.

  Duckworth, George A. V.

  Lymington, Viscount

  Smithers, Waldron

  Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)

  Mac Andrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick)

  Somervell, Donald Bradley

  Dunglass, Lord

  MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)

  Soper, Richard

  Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.

  McCorquodale, M. S.

  Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.

  Elliston, Captain George Sampson

  MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)

  Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.

  Elmley, Viscount

  McKie, John Hamilton

  Spencer, Captain Richard A.

  Emrys- Evans, P. V.

  McLean, Major Sir Alan

  Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)

  Entwlstle, Cyril Fullard

  Macmillan, Maurice Harold

  Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)

  Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)

  Magnay, Thomas

  Storey, Samuel

  Essenhigh, Reginald Clare

  Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest

  Stourton, Hon. John J.

  Everard, W. Lindsay

  Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.

  Strauss, Edward A.

  Fleming, Edward Lascelles

  Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.

  Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart

  Ford. Sir Patrick J.

  Marsden, Commander Arthur

  Sutcliffe, Harold

  Fremantle, Sir Francis

  Martin, Thomas B.

  Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)

  Ganzonl, Sir John

  Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John

  Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles

  Glllett, Sir George Masterman

  Merriman, Sir F. Boyd

  Thorp, Linton Theodore

  Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Mills. Major J. D. (New Forest)

  Touche, Gordon Cosmo

  Glossop, C. W. H

  Milne, Charles

  Train, John

  Gluckstein, Louis Halle

  Mitcheson, G. G.

  Turton, Robert Hugh

  Goff, Sir Park

  Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale

  Vaughan-M organ, Sir Kenyon

  Goodman, Colonel Albert W.

  Moreing, Adrian C.

  Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)

  Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'H'd, N.)

  Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)

  Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

  Greene, William P. C.

  Muirhead, Major A. J.

  Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S.

  Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

  Munro, Patrick

  Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.

  Grimston, R. V.

  Nail, Sir Joseph

  Watt, Captain George Steven H.

  Gunston, Captain D. W.

  Nail-Cain, Hon. Ronald

  Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour.

  Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.

  Nation. Brigadier-General J. J. H.

  Wells, Sydney Richard

  Hales, Harold K.

  Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)

  Whiteside, Borras Noel H.

  Hamilton, Sir George (llord)

  Nunn, William

  Whyte, Jardine Bell

  Hanbury, Cecil

  O'Connor, Terence James

  Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)

  Hanley, Dennis A.

  O'Donovan, Dr. William James

  Wills, Wllfrid D.

  Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

  Patrick, Colin M.

  Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)

  Hartington, Marquess of

  Pearson. William G.

  Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George

  Hartland, George A.

  Peat, Charles U.

  Womersley, Walter James

  Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

  Percy, Lord Eustace

  Worthington. Dr. John V.

  Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)

  Petherick, M

  Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)

  Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.

  Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bllston)

  Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)

  Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

  Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John Waller

  Pike, Cecil F.

  Sir George Penny and Lieut.-

  Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)

  Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.

  Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.

  Hopkinson, Austin

  Procter, Major Henry Adam

  NOES.

  Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke

  Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

  Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)

  Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)

  Dickie, John P.

  Harris, Sir Percy

  Attlee, Clement Richard

  Dobbie, William

  Hicks, Ernest George

  Banfield, John William

  Edwards, Charles

  Hirst, George Henry

  Batey, Joseph

  Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)

  Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)

  Bemays, Robert

  Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)

  Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

  Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)

  Foot, Dingle (Dundee)

  Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)

  Cocks, Frederick Seymour

  George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)

  Kirkwood, David

  Cove, William G.

  Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur

  Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George

  Cripps, Sir Stafford

  Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'.W.)

  Lawson, John James

  Curry, A. C.

  Grundy, Thomas W.

  Logan, David Gilbert

  Daggar, George

  Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

  Lunn, William

  Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)

  Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll)

  Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)

  956

  957

  McEntee, Valentine L.

  Rathbone, Eleanor

  Williams, David (Swansea, East)

  Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

  Rea, Walter Russell

  Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)

  Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot

  Rothschild, James A. de

  Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)

  Mander, Geoffrey le M.

  Salter, Dr, Alfred

  Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)

  Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)

  Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)

  Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)

  Maxton, James

  Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)

  Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)

  Mliner, Major James

  Smith. Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-in-F.)

  Nathan, Major H. L.

  Thorne, William James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES —

  Parkinson, John Allen

  Tinker, John Joseph

  Mr. D. Graham and Mr. Groves.

  Price, Gabriel

  White, Henry Graham

  Resolution agreed to.

  DONCASTER AREA DRAINAGE (RE-COMMITTED) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]

  CLAUSE 1.—(Transfer of jurisdiction over certain channels to Ouse Board and 7'rent Board.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
  11.22 p.m.
  Colonel GRETTON: It may be convenient to inform the Committee that, although on the Second Reading opposition was offered by various boroughs and interests in the area in which the Drainage Board will operate, we recognise that the Bill has been before a Joint Committee in the appointment of which this House shared, and that this House is always very reluctant to disagree with the work that is done by its Committees, unless there is strong ground, or new ground, for doing so. The arguments against the Bill remain the same as they were on Second Reading. In regard to the grievances that are felt by the boroughs, representations were put forward to show that promises made to those boroughs, who are bearing a greater share of the burden, have not been carried out. We recognise, how-ever, that we should only be delaying the Committee by moving an Amendment, but we still hope that there may be future legislation to take more account of the inequalities which have been committed by this House in a Measure by which considerable bodies of people are being taxed to no immediate or remote advantage to themselves. Certainly, a new grievance has been created, and I hope that it will be remedied at a future date. I do not propose to delay the Committee or to ask it to consider Amendments.
  11.25 p.m.
  Mr. DENMAN: The right hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton) has expressed the views of the Trent boroughs. Our grievance has not been met, and the Bill returns to us with precisely the same objections which we saw in it at the previous stage. It upsets the 1930 settlement and the balance then agreed to, and does not do anything for the advantage of the areas which the right hon. and gallant Gentleman and I specially represent. But the Committee has unanimously declared against us, and at this stage there is no course open to us but to accept the decision of the Committee. The boroughs have never desired to delay the Bill. They have desired to defeat it, but not to delay it. Like an earlier nefarious act, if it were done, it were well that it were done quickly, and we all agree in hoping that, when the Bill is passed, action will be taken very quickly. For that reason, I do not propose further to oppose the Bill, but would only express the final hope that the Government will be able to see their way to help the board at a later stage of their duties.
  11.27 p.m.
  Mr. GURNEY BRAITHWAITE: In supporting the remarks of the right hon. and gallant Member for Burton (Colonel Gretton), I desire to say a word on behalf of the City of Sheffield, which is very much affected by this Bill. When the Second Reading was taken, the Minister of Agriculture consoled us with the assurance that the county boroughs would be able to call in the aid of experienced and learned counsel in putting their case before the Select Committee. Unhappily, subsequent events have proved that, although they were able to brief experienced and learned counsel, those experienced and learned counsel have not had the opportunity of being heard. They have, in fact, become experienced and expensive counsel without the opportunity of putting their case.

  959
  It is an unhappy coincidence that, on the very day when the Committee stage and Third Reading of this Bill are being taken, the area of Bentley has once more been flooded. That is a matter which the whole House will regret, irrespective of party or constituency. But I think we are entitled to point out certain things to the Minister and to the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Molson). The hon. Member, on the Second Reading, pointed out at considerable length that the area which was flooded was no responsibility of the urban council of Bentley-with-Arksey, thereby conveying the supposition that the plans for these houses had not been approved by the local authority —that, in fact, the plans had not been submitted to any authority whatsoever. I am open to correction on the point, but I think he said that, although no plans had been submitted to anyone, and although due warning had been given, the houses were built in the flooded area. I think I am entitled to point out to the Minister that there is no magic in the chanting of incantations—that there is no magic in the words "Ouse Catchment Board" as opposed to the words "Doncaster Drainage Area"—and that these particular houses are likely to be flooded whenever exceptional circumstances occur. My right hon. Friend is perhaps endeavouring to emulate a previous Minister of the name of Canute, who a thousand years ago tried to prevent a flood by the chanting of incantations. While conveying that warning that the transference of the Doncaster area to the Ouse Catchment Board is no more likely to prevent flooding than were the incantations of King Canute, it is our duty as good citizens to accept the findings of the Select Committee and hope that the system that they have recommended will prove to be a better system for this distressed area.
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: As one speech of welcome for the Bill is necessary, it may be as well to make it now instead of on the Third Reading. I wish hon. Members who have spoken could have stood on Doncaster Bridge on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday of last week and seen the hundreds of thousands of tons of water coming from the higher reaches into the lower Don and how the resi
  960
  dents of Bentley, who had lived one or two nights of terror, were having their houses flooded, in many cases the water reaching to the ceiling, and being driven for the third time in 18 months from their homes lest they found themselves at the bottom of the River Don or in the tide of the flood. The cold, icy indifference of this House for 30 or 40 years has allowed a problem to grow up which was anyone's and no one's responsibility and has culminated in the cruel disaster which has overtaken those people so quickly and so frequently. The hon. Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Braithwaite) can know nothing at all about the problem or he would not have dared to make the statement he has just made. All the water that is now in the homes of the people of Bentley and other parts of the Don Valley came from the Sheffield direction—at all events, it came out of the Ouse Catchment area. The Doncaster and Don Valley people are in no way responsible for dealing with the water that come from the higher reaches.
  Mr. GURNEY BRAITHWAITE: Will the hon. Member explain how this Bill will correct that situation?
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I must point out that this not a suitable occasion to Debate the merits or demerits of the Bill. I allowed the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to make a statement, but, if it is desired to have a general Debate, we must take it on the Third Reading.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: I only want to say that these periodic floods are due to water that comes from the higher reaches, for which the Ouse Catchment Board must of necessity be responsible. The Bill deals with the transfer of powers or responsibilities, and I do not know how any one in any part of the House can complain. They have had their chance. They went before the Select Committee.
  Major HILLS: On a point of Order. Is the hon. Gentleman in order in going into the merits of the Bill, and, if he is, should we be in order in answering him?
  Mr. WILLIAMS: Surely, Clause 1 is virtually the whole of the Bill, and, unless one can talk about the intentions of the Measure under Clause 1, it is most difficult to know exactly what one can say.
  An HON. MEMBER: Well, do not say it.
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: Clause 1 deals with the transfer of the present powers of the Doncaster Drainage Board to the Ouse and Trent Catchment Boards. I am not quite certain how far that affects the provisions of the rest of the Bill, but I do not think that the Motion, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," is a suitable occasion for a discussion on the merits or demerits of the Measure. It should be on the Third Reading.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: If the Debate is to be restricted—and I only intended to occupy a few minutes—and what I am saying is objectionable to the hon. Gentleman, so be it. I will say what I have to say on the Third Reading.
  11.36 p.m.
  Major HILLS: I wish to say a word on behalf of the small local authorities. In fact, I do not think that I should have spoken if it had not been for the very unhelpful speech which we have just heard from the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams). The Bill has been very fairly met by the speech of my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton-on-Trent (Colonel Gretton). It is not only the county boroughs who have to pay; my constituents, without any sort of community of interest with the constituents of the hon. Member for Don Valley, do pay for the draining of the land of the constituents of the hon. Member.
  Mr. WILLIAMS: On a point of Order. Is it in order for the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to introduce the question of finance on Clause 1?
  The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN: I would remind the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that it appears to be a matter which would be more appropriate on the Third Reading.
  Major HILLS: We raised certain points on the Second Reading, and they have not been met. We have not got the Government grant which was the basis of the Report of the Royal Commission, and we have not the Government assistance which was promised by Dr. Addison. But I cannot oppose the Bill. I cannot oppose it, because it has passed through the
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  Joint Committee, but perhaps chiefly because on Friday last I went through this flooded area. I have very seldom seen a more pitiful sight than the miles of flooded water out there. With all respect to the hon. Member for Don Valley, everybody admits that this work has to be done, and the only question which we who oppose the Bill raised was who should pay for it? That question is still unsolved, or it is solved in a way which is extremely unsatisfactory to my constituents.
  11.39 p.m.
  Mr. O'CONNOR: I think that I am within the limits of order in supporting what was said by my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Burton-on-Trent (Colonel Gretton). Like him, have the honour to represent a portion of a city which is financially very much concerned with this Measure. We recognise the fact that in the Committee, by an overwhelming decision, the case for the county boroughs was turned down. We recognise the force of that decision, and we do not propose to test it in this House by opposing the Third Reading. We consider that we are bearing a greatly unfair burden for the melancholy privilege of paying the piper for a tune which we neither enjoy nor find stimulating, and—on this we stake our claim—on a future occasion in this House we may have to reconsider the financing of this Measure, and the burdens that are placed upon the local authorities in the catchment areas.
  Clauses 2 (Dissolution of Doncaster Board and transfer of property and functions thereof), 3 (Amendment of s.10 of Doncaster Area Drainage Act, 1929), 4 (increased membership of Ouse Board and Trent Board), 5 (Provisions as to rating), 6 (Compensation to officers of Doncaster Board), 7 (Saving provision as to land outside Doncaster District), and 8 (Short title and interpretation) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Schedule and Preamble agreed to.
  Bill reported, without Amendment.
  Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
  11.42 p.m.
  Mr. T. WILLIAMS: It is unfortunate that hon. Members representing the boroughs are not yet satisfied. I entirely agree with the hon. and learned Member for Central Nottingham (Mr. O'Connor) and the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Major Hills) that the work should be undertaken and that the Government ought to render some financial assistance. What crime have these people committed in the area? Largely, they are mine workers who must live in the area because their work is there. They have no summer house, no winter house. They are not housing experts in the sense that they can move from one county to another. They live in the area because no other houses are available and if, as the result of a heavy fall of snow or rain, floods take place, they are victims from a cause over which they have no control.
  This Bill is simply to transfer powers, but the Ouse Catchment Board will have to bear the full responsibility for the work. I know that I need not invite the right hon. Gentleman's sympathy. He is in full sympathy with the miserable people whom I saw on Saturday and Sunday wading knee deep in water, carrying bedding, etc. to the school or other institutions where temporary accommodation will have to be provided for them for many weeks ahead. If through the transference of the powers of the Catchment Board and, incidentally, the transference of responsibility, there is any hesitation on the part of the Catchment Board, I hope the Minister will treat this as one of the cases to which he referred me on the 14th June last year, when he said that the position as regards grants remains as it was on the 14th June last, namely, that only in cases of the gravest emergency could an application for grant be considered. I have received a telegram from the Bentley Council, which I should like to read. It says:
  " The people of Bentley and Arksey are grief stricken. The floods have invaded hundreds of houses and are still rising. The people are driven to the school for the third time in 18 months. Thousands of acres of agricultural land, with good growing crops, are standing from two feet to eight feet deep in water. The whole of the flooding has come from the higher reaches
  964
  of the catchment area. Our people demand that the Government shall take such effective and vigorous steps to deal with the constant menace to their health, comfort and property, as would be taken in the event of an air invasion of their home by a foreign enemy."
  I do not know whether the suggestion of the invasion of a foreign army is culled from President Roosevelt's speech. But this is a case of grave emergency. I want to compliment the right hon. Gentleman for having done his best since 'he took office to get this Measure through, transferring the responsibilities and obligations to the wider area, which has the machinery at their disposal and, I believe, the finance, in the case of no national grant, to see that the work is carried out and thus prevent a repetition of the calamity from which these people are suffering at the moment. During the past 18 months they have had three floods and 1,200 people have been driven from their homes. They have also endured a mine explosion in which 47 lives were lost. While welcoming the Bill I appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to urge upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the necessity not only of encouraging the Catchment Board to carry out the work but to inspire them with zeal. Governments in the past have lacked a sense of responsibility and have allowed the problem to develop. Now I want the Government to provide some compensation for the cold icy indifference of the past by ensuring that in the quickest possible space of time the Ouse Catchment Board will undertake the draining of the area and thus prevent a repetition of the terrible calamity which has overtaken this area three times in the last 18 months.
  11.47 p.m.
  Major MILNER: I want to make it quite plain that there never has been, nor is there now, any lack of sympathy on the part of any hon. Member for the inhabitants of this particular area. The matter has been one of principle; and one in which we thought that an inequitable burden was being placed on the county boroughs, and on the smaller boroughs. Some of us think that there has been a withdrawal from the agreement which was entered into by the last

  965
  Government. I hope this will be clearly understood in the Don area, and that hereafter, in the words of President Roosevelt, we shall all be good neighbours. Perhaps some readjustment of the financial burden may be made in the future.

  EVIDENCE (FOREIGN, DOMINION AND COLONIAL DOCUMENTS) BILL. [Lords.]
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
  ASSURANCE COMPANIES (WINDING-UP) BILL. [Lords.]
  Read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

  SUPPLY.
  REPORT [23RD FEBRUARY.]
  Resolution reported,
  CIVIL (EXCESS), 1931.
  That a sum, not exceeding £97 1s. 5d., be granted to His Majesty, to make good an Excess on the Grant for the Privy
  966
  Council Office for the year ended 31st day of March, 1932:

  Amount to be Voted.

  CLASS 1.

  £

  s.

  d.

  Vote 5. Privy Council Office

  97

  1

  5"

  SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932.
  Resolved,
  " That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section one of the Act to the urban district of Edmonton, which was presented on the 23rd day of February, 1933, be approved."
  Resolved,
  " That the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section one of the Act to the urban district of Hayes and Harlington, which was presented on the 23rd day of February, 1933, be approved."—[Mr. Hacking.]
  The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
  It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at Nine Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.