§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Sir S. CRIPPSWe now arrive at the most extraordinary bit of legislation that I think has ever been put before the House of Commons. Hidden in the back of a definition Clause is the second Subsection, which says:
References in this Act to any of the scheduled Agreements shall be construed as references to that Agreement as for the time being varied by mutual consent.That is to say, the Governments of this country and of any Dominion can at any moment make any alteration in the Agreement, and the House of Commons will be deemed to have given its assent to the alteration without ever having heard of it. Not only will it be deemed to have given its consent, but it will be deemed to have authorised anything to be done under it that may be done under this Act. One has had legislation by reference, one has had legislation giving the Executive unexampled power, but surely here we are meeting with a type of legislation as to which there can never have been any precedent. Two people agree upon a certain line of action. On the face of this Agreement this House is asked to put into force a large number of duties on vital commodities—foodstuffs and raw materials, The argument in favour of that is that you must take the Agreement as a whole. We have had it stated ad naruseam from the Front Bench. Then we find put in this Clause a provision that everything eau be wiped out of the Agreement except the tax on foodstuffs, that any variation can be made of the meat quota arrangement, that any addition can be made as regards putting a prohibition by the Board of Trade. At present it only appears in the Canadian Agreement, but Australia can come along and say, "You have done this for Canada. Why cannot we have it?" The Government will say. "We can do it under the Bill. We need not go back to Parliament to get any 1849 fresh authority." All those prohibitions will have been authorised by Parliament, although they have never been heard of and although it has never been suggested that they should be made.This Clause should not be passed. If the Government have any suggestion as regards the necessity for it, it could easily be put in words far narrower, far more restrictive, and tying down the Government to some specific matter if they have a specific matter in mind, but to give the Government a perfectly wide roving commission to alter these Agreements just as they wish in any way as regards any matter without consultation with the House seems to me to deprive them of the only argument they have so far had in favour of carrying the Bill through the House.
§ Dr. BURGINThe hon. and learned Gentleman has a short memory. We have been discussing only to-day Clause 10, which provides that no increase or reimposition of a duty can be effected without an affirmative Resolution being passed. There is, therefore, a safeguard in that respect. It is also provided by Clause 1 (3) that in no circumstances can the maximum rate of duty that is imposed by the Bill be increased. But I gather the hon. and learned Gentleman's objection to the Clause is really confined to the last four lines. This is a normal interpretation Clause down to those four last lines. Various phrases are given the same interpretation as in the Finance Act and the Import Duties Act, 1932, and the other definitions I gather he takes no exception to. The second Sub-section is necessary if circumstances arise which bring about variations in the Agreements themselves. Article 23 of the Canadian Agreement, and the corresponding last article of each of the Agreements with the other Dominions, contain powers for variation, and in the absence of this Subsection the scheduled Agreement would be the original Agreement as scheduled, and it would not be competent for the Treasury to have regard to variations which had been made by mutual consent. Having regard to the safeguards imported into the Bill, it seems to me that these four lines are absolutely necessary for the Treasury to exercise their power.
§ Sir JOHN WARDLAW-MILNEI am generally in entire agreement with my hon. Friend in the interpretation that he has given to the words of the Bill, but his speech leaves me in some difficulty. I had noticed the references to which he has just drawn attention in Clauses 1 and 10, which made me feel confident that they did not refer either to an increase or decrease in the duty. But, if so, is not this Sub-section extremely contradictory to other parts of the Bill? Although it is true that Parliament has not the onerous duty of interpreting the law after it is passed—and we may be thankful for that—it seems to me that we are putting into the Clause words which are entirely contradictory to the other parts of the Bill, and I should have thought it was worth the while of the Government to consider whether this could not be expressed in a little more definite way than appears in the Subsection.
§ Mr. ISAAC FOOTI think there is something in the argument which has been put forward by the hon. and learned Gentleman which has not been met in the answer given from the Front Bench. Would it not be possible to say that references in this Act to any of the scheduled Agreements shall be construed as references to that Agreement as for the time being varied in accordance with the terms of this Act? If that were done, it would meet the case put by the hon. and learned Gentleman. As things are, if one wants to consider the Act, or if in the courts an opinion is sought, what material will there be to enable them to arrive at the alterations which may have been made, perhaps a series of alterations over a long time? Here is an Act of Parliament which contemplates a duration of at least five years. It may extend, if the hopes of many Members are, realised, over 20 or 25 years. This Interpretation Clause has to run all through that time, and, although the Parliamentary Secretary invokes precedents for the other definitions, I should like to know if there is any precedent for this definition. Is there anything in Statute law which would justify, what I think is the very loose wording of this part of the Clause, and would it not be possible to meet it upon the lines which I have suggested, or upon lines which will commend themselves to those who are advising the Parliamentary 1851 Secretary? I think the answer that has been made by the Front Bench does not dispose of the argument submitted by the hon. and learned Gentleman.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 333; Noes, 70.
1853| Division No. 349.] | AYES | [6.15 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Hume, Sir George Hopwood |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Cranborne, Viscount | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Craven-Ellis, William | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) |
| Albery, Irving James | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Hurd, Sir Percy |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Llyerp'l, W.) | Crooke, J. Smedley | Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd) |
| Allen, Lt.-Col, J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) | Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) | Iveagh, Countess of |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Crossley, A. C. | Jamleson, Douglas |
| Apollo, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Cruddas, Lieut-Colonel Bernard | Jesson, Major Thomas E. |
| Apsley, Lord | Dalkeith, Earl of | Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Ker, J. Campbell |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Dickle, John P. | Kerr, Hamilton W. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Donner, P. W. | Kimball, Lawrence |
| Batley, Eric Alfred George | Drewe, Cedric | Kirkpatrick, William M. |
| Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. | Duckworth, George A. V. | Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. |
| Baldwin-Webb. Colonel J. | Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Knebworth, Viscount |
| Ranks, Sir Reginald Mitchell | Duggan, Hubert John | Knight, Holford |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Dunglass, Lord | Knox, Sir Alfred |
| Bateman, A. L. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Latham, Sir Herbert Paul |
| Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) | Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey | Law, Sir Alfred |
| Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) | Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) |
| Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel | Elmley, Viscount | Lees-Jones, John |
| Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn) | Emmott. Charles E. G. C. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Emrys-Evans. P. V. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton) | Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Levy, Thomas |
| Blindell, James | Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Lewis, Oswald |
| Borodale, Viscount | Ersklne-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Lindsay, Noel Ker |
| Bossom, A. C. | Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunllfle- |
| Boulton, W. W. | Everard, W. Lindsay | Llewellin, Major John J. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lloyd, Geoffrey |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Fermoy, Lord | Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Loder, Captain J. de Vere |
| Boyce, H. Leslie | Forestier-Walker, Sir Leolin | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander |
| Bracken, Brendan | Fox, Sir Gifford | MacAndrew. Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick) |
| Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. R.) | Fremantle, Sir Francis | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) |
| Braithwaite. J. G. (Hillsborough) | Fuller, Captain A. G. | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Briscoe, Capt. Richard George | Ganzonl, Sir John | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Gillett, Sir George Masterman | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassctlaw) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Gilmour. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham) | Glossop, C. W. H. | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Gluckstein, Louis Halle | McKie, John Hamilton |
| Burghley, Lord | Glyn, Major Ralph G. C. | McLean, Major Alan |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Goff, Sir Park | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) |
| Burnett, John George | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Macmillan, Maurice Harold |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Granville, Edgar | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Magnay, Thomas |
| Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) | Graves, Marjorie | Maitland, Adam |
| Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm | Greene, William P. C. | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Carver, Major William H. | Grimston, R. V. | Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. |
| Cassels, James Dale | Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. | Marsden, Commander Arthur |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. | Martin, Thomas B. |
| Castle Stewart, Earl | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) | Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon) | Meller, Richard James |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Chalmers, John Rutherford | Hanbury, Cecil | Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) |
| Chamberlain. Rt. Hon. Sir J.A.(Birm.,W) | Hanley, Dennis A, | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Milne, Charles |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Harbord, Arthur | Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) |
| Choriton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Christie, James Archibald | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale |
| Clarke, Frank | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Moreing, Adrian C. |
| Clayton, Dr. George C. | Heligers, Captain F. F. A. | Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Moss, Captain H. J. |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Hepworth, Joseph | Muirhead, Major A. J. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Munro, Patrick |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Murray-Philipson, Hylton Ralph |
| Cooke, Douglas | Hornby, Frank | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Howard, Tom Forrest | Newton, Sir Douglas George C. |
| Copeland, Ida | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) |
| Courtauld, Major John Sewell | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | North, Captain Edward T. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Nunn, William |
| Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. | Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'slde) | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Patrick, Colin M. | Rutherford, Sir John Hugo | Templeton, William P. |
| Peake, Captain Osbert | Salmon, Major Isidore | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Pearson, William G. | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) |
| Perkins, Walter R. D. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart | Thompson, Luke |
| Petherick, M. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles |
| Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple) | Savery, Samuel Servington | Thorp, Linton Theodore |
| Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) | Scone, Lord | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada | Selley, Harry R. | Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) |
| Pike, Cecil F. | Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. | Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) | Train, John |
| Power, Sir John Cecil | Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Pownall, Sir Assheton | Simmonds, Oliver Edwin | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Procter, Major Henry Adam | Skelton, Archibald Noel | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Pybus, Percy John | Slater, John | Wallace, John (Dunfermline) |
| Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) | Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.) | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | Wardlaw-Miline, Sir John S. |
| Ramsbotham, Herwald | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Ramsden, E. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Ratcliffe, Arthur | Smithers, Waldron | Weymouth, Viscount |
| Rawson, Sir Cooper | Soper, Richard | Whiteside, Borras Noel H. |
| Ray, Sir William | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. | Whyte, Jardine Bell |
| Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Reid, David D. (County Down) | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) | Spencer, Captain Richard A. | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. C. (Westmorland) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Coionel George |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Stewart, William J. | Withers, Sir John James |
| Roes, Ronald D. | Storey, Samuel | Womersley, Walter James |
| Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Strauss, Edward A. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley |
| Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. | Strickland, Captain W. F. | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Runclman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks) |
| Runge, Norah Cecil | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart | |
| Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) | Summersbv, Charles H. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Sutcliffe, Harold | Sir George Penny and Lieut.-Colonel |
| Sir A. Lambert Ward. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Grundy, Thomas W. | Mander, Geoffrey le M. |
| Bonfield, John William | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Mason, David M. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Edinburgh, E.) Maxton, James |
| Bernays, Robert | Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Milner, Major James |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Harris, Sir Percy | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Cape, Thomas | Hicks, Ernest George | Pickering, Ernest H. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Hirst, George Henry | Price, Gabriel |
| Cove, William G. | Holdsworth, Herbert | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Cowan, D. M. | Janner, Barnett | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Jenkins, Sir William | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Curry, A. C. | Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Daggar, George | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Thorne, William James |
| Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Kirkwood, David | Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David |
| Edwards, Charles | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Lawson, John James | White, Henry Graham |
| Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) | Liewellyn-Jones, Frederick | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | Logan, David Gilbert | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Lunn, William | Williams, Thomas (York., Don Valley) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | McEntee, Valentine L. | Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.) |
| Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | McKeag, William | |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro, W.) | Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. John and Mr. Groves. |
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.