§ Mr. MANDERI beg to move, in page 27, line 34, at the end, to insert the words:
among which shall be included the flour milling industry joint industrial council.The Minister will possibly say that he will probably in any case consult this council, but I think this is an opportunity for giving to one of these joint industrial councils, which are doing such excellent work in industry in different parts of the country, that recognition to which they are entitled. I believe this council is a very good one and I feel sure that the Minister would be well advised in asking their opinion as to who should be chosen. The council is a joint one. It represents employés as well as employers. In that way the employés are brought in. I do not know that they could be consulted by any other machinery which the Minister could set up. I hope, therefore, that he will feel able to give some encouragement to bodies of this character by actually incorporating into the Statute their right to be consulted—and only consulted—on a matter of this kind.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI think that there must be a misunderstanding on the part of the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment as to what actually takes place. The Flour Millers' Corporation is to be established under the Act primarily to carry into effect the orders which the Minister may make for the purchase of unsold stocks of wheat. It is not a matter which imposes any liability upon anyone but the millers as owners of the milling companies. It imposes no liability of any sort upon the workers, so that really they have no interest, direct or indirect, in this problem, and, in the circumstances, I think that the Committee will agree that the Amendment should not be accepted.
§ Mr. MANDERIn view of what the Minister has said, I must make this point. I wish to challenge the suggestion that the workers in an industry are not interested in every side of the work of that industry. It is taking a very narrow and short-sighted view to say that the question of wages may not be involved, and that therefore it has nothing to do with the workers, and they are not interested at all. I wish to make a protest against that particular view of industry.
§ Mr. RHYS DAVIESI wish to join with the hon. Member for East Wolver-hampton (Mr. Mander) in what he has said, and would like to emphasise the point which he has made. There is in this industry one of the best joint industrial councils in the land. The flour milling industry Joint Industrial Council is indeed unique, and if the right hon. Gentleman can in any way consult it, I feel sure that thousands of employés in the milling industry will be very pleased indeed.
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI should not have intervened except that once again we have an opportunity of pointing out how the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Davies) and the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) are always taking the sort of line that certain people cannot look after themselves. The average man working in industry is capable of looking after himself. The line which the hon. Members are taking to-night is an unjustifiable one. Some hon. Lady might just as well ask why there cannot be a woman Member appointed. I appeal to the Government to appoint the people best able to look after the job.
§ Mr. MANDERHas the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) not made it perfectly clear that he thinks the Minister cannot look after himself?
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSNo, I said that the Minister wants a little additional protection in the House of Commons when he has an opposition which was returned to support him, always opposing him.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSI beg to move, in page 27, line 36, to leave out from the word "conditions" to the second word "as" in line 37.
We are not at all certain why the Flour Millers' Corporation should be re- 830 munerated, apparently, at the expense of the consumer. The cost of the remuneration of the officers, or the people who form the Flour Millers' Corporation, will presumably come out of the wheat subsidy. It seems a curious thing that if the Wheat Commission is not to be paid, the Flour Millers' Corporation is to be paid. The right hon. Gentleman has already told us that he only wishes to pay the chairman and vice-chairman of the Wheat Commission, and yet we have a provision by which, apparently, all the members of the Flour Millers' Corporation are to be entitled to remuneration, which may be fixed under this Schedule. We suggest that whatever the arguments may be for the payment of out-of-pocket expenses and other remuneration to the Wheat Commission, which is a semi-Governmental one, that in regard to this Corporation, which is purely to protect the interest of the millers, there is no possible excuse for paying them and putting the cost of their salaries upon the consumers of flour. We suggest that these words should be taken out and that there should be no payment to members of the Flour Millers' Corporation. They will all probably be wealthy flour millers, and there is no reason why, for the small amount of extra, work that they may have to do in their own interests, they should be paid out of this fund.
§ Sir J. GILMOURIt is true that the primary purpose for which the Flour Millers' Corporation is being established will probably not provide any case for remuneration, but such a case might arise where, by agreement between the Minister, the Wheat Commission and the Fleur Millers' Corporation, some special assistance was given to the Wheat Commission by the Corporation under Clause 4 (3) dealing with quota payments by the Flour Millers' Corporation on behalf of millers, and we feel that if that was so and if actual work of that kind were done, it would be reasonable to have the power to pay some remuneration. As I said at the outset, it will probably not be necessary, but we desire to have the power to make some payment in case we enter into a contract by which services will be rendered and for which some payment would be reasonable.
§ Sir S, CRIPPSSurely, the right hon. Gentleman does not suggest that this service will be done by the people who 831 are going to be appointed to run the Flour Millers' Corporation. They can be paid for the service of the clerks and so on, who are part of the expenses of the Corporation, but this is a question of remunerating the actual people who form the Corporation, five or six directors, or people in that position. The mere fact that the Corporation of which they are directors undertakes to collect some money through their staff, surely does not
§ give a reason why we should pay them directors' fees. They are engaged in their own interest in running the Corporation specially for their own benefit under the Act, and we ought to make it clear that they are not going to get the fees of directors for this work.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 35.
833| Division No. 133.] | AYES. | [10.25 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Lloyd, Geoffrey |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Lockwood. John C. (Hackney, C.) |
| Albery, Irving James | Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nhd.) | Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Essenhigh, Reginald Clare | Mabane, William |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.) | MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick) |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Everard, W. Lindsay | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) |
| Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe | Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Foot, Dingle (Dundee) | McKie, John Hamilton |
| Bailey, Eric Alfred George | Ford, Sir Patrick J. | McLean, Major Alan |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Fox, Sir Gilford | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) |
| Balniel, Lord | Fuller, Captain A. G. | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) | Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton) | Goff, Sir Park | Martin, Thomas B. |
| Bird, Sir Robert B. (Wolverh'pton w.) | Goldie, Noel B. | Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) |
| Blindell, James | Gower, Sir Robert | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Borodale, Viscount | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd |
| Bossom, A. C. | Graves, Marjorie | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Greene, William P. C. | Milne, Charles |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) | Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Grimston, R. V. | Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tt'd & Chisw'k) |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Guinness, Thomas L. E. B, | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) |
| Briant, Frank | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Mitcheson, G. G. |
| Broadbent, Colonel John | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Moreing, Adrian C |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks., Newb'y) | Hales, Harold K. | Morgan, Robert H. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T | Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd) | Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.) |
| Burghley, Lord | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Morrison, William Shephard |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Hartland, George A. | Moss, Captain H. J. |
| Burnett, John George | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | Muirhead, Major A. J. |
| Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) | Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. | Munro, Patrick |
| Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley) | Heilgers, Captain F.F. A, | North, Captain Edward T. |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) | Nunn, William |
| Carver, Major William H. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | O'Connor, Terence James |
| Castle Stewart, Earl | Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) | O'Donovan, Dr. William James |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm.,W) | Hornby, Frank | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. |
| Chapman, Col.R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) | Howard, Tom Forrest | Patrick, Colin M. |
| Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Howitt, Dr. Alfred B, | Pearson, William G. |
| Chotzner, Alfred James | Hudson,Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Peat, Charles U. |
| Christie, James Archibald | Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) | Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilston) |
| Clayton, Dr. George C. | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Pickering, Ernest H. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romf'd) | Pike, Cecil F. |
| Colville, John | James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H. | Potter, John |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Jesson, Major Thomas E. | Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. |
| Cooke, Douglas | Joel, Dudley J. Barnato | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Ker, J. Campbell | Pybus, Percy John |
| Copeland, Ida | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Raikes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | Kimball, Lawrence | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. | Ramsbotham, Herwald |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Knebworth, Viscount | Ramsden, E. |
| Cross, R. H. | Law, Sir Alfred | Ratcliffe, Arthur |
| Crossley, A. C. | Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Leckie, J. A. | Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) |
| Donner, P. W. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Drewe, Cedric | Levy, Thomas | Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. |
| Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel | Liddall, Walter S. | Robinson, John Roland |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Lindsay, Noel Ker | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Eastwood, John Francis | Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- | Rosbotham, S. T. |
| Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest | Ross, Ronald D. |
| Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Llewellin, Major John J. | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Elmley, Viscount | Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick | Runge, Norah Cecil |
| Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'tside) | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) | Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde) | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Salmon, Major Isidore | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Stones, James | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Sandeman, SI A. N. Stewart | Storey, Samuel | Watt, Captain George Steven H. |
| Savery, Samuel Servington | Stourton, Hon. John J. | Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour- |
| Scone, Lord | Strauss, Edward A. | Wells, Sydney Richard |
| Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Weymouth, Viscount |
| Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. | Sutcliffe, Harold | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Simmonds, Oliver Edwin | Tate, Mavis Constance | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness) | Templeton, William P. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Skelton, Archibald Noel | Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Thorp, Linton Theodore | Worthington, Dr. John V. |
| Somervell, Donald Bradley | Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) | Wragg, Herbert |
| Somerville, Annesley A, (Windsor) | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) |
| Soper, Richard | Touche, Gordon Cosmo | |
| Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. | Turton, Robert Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) | Sir George Penny and Lieut.- |
| Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D, M. (Poplar, South) | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Maxton, James |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, George Henry | Nathan, Major H. L. |
| Batey, Joseph | Holdsworth, Herbert | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Jenkins, Sir William | Price, Gabriel |
| Cove, William G. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Daggar, George | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhougnton) | Lawson, John James | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Edwards, Charles | Logan, David Gilbert | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) | Lunn, William | |
| Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | McEntee, Valentine L. | Mr. Groves and Mr. Duncan |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Graham. |
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
§ Mr. D. GRENFELLI beg to move, in page 28, line 5, to leave out from the word "flour" to the word "and" in line 7.
I understand that it will be convenient to discuss this Amendment and the next on the Paper—in line 8, to leave out the words "apply therefore or who." If the two Amendments were carried the paragraph would read:
The corporation shall make arrangements approved by the Minister for the registration of all millers of flour and for the removal from the register of the names of persons who have ceased to be millers of flour.In moving this Amendment, I wish, now that we have reached the closing stages of these discussions to assure the right hon. Gentleman opposite of our sympathy with him after the remarks of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams). He should take such comfort of mind as he can from the fact that the hon. Member for Torquay is well known to us as the watchdog of privilege and of private Members' rights, but he is the kind of watchdog who makes a lot of noise but does not bite. I do not think that the Minister need be intimidated by anything which he has said. We are very anxious that the right hon. Gentleman should accept this and the following 834 Amendment, because we believe that all millers should be in this Corporation. We conceive it possible that a sufficient number of millers might, of their own volition, remain outside and thus make the Corporation incomplete and perhaps unworkable. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has any idea of a minimum percentage of membership with which he would be satisfied. but we believe that the membership should be a 100 per cent. membership and that millers should only be relieved from membership when they cease to be millers of flour in accordance with the terms laid down in the Bill. We believe that there should be no exemptions. It might be awkward if a large number of millers abstained from membership and the Corporation was found to be only faintly representative of the millers. If the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that this change is not necessary in the Bill, we should like to have an explanation from him on this point, and, failing an explanation, we think that this Amendment ought to be made.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI must express my indebtedness to the hon. Member for his kindly references to me which I greatly appreciate. This Amendment deals with the question of the membership of the 835 Flour Millers' Corporation. I have felt all along that I did not wish to force the flour millers to go into the Corporation against their will. I anticipate that they will in fact go into the Corporation. On the other hand, I think it is important to note that failure to register with the Corporation will not exempt any miller from his liability under Clause 8, Subsection (4) to bear his share of any loss which may accrue to the Corporation in the purchase or disposal of stocks of unsold wheat under an order made by the Minister under Clause 1, Sub-section (4). Therefore, remaining outside the Corporation will not be any pecuniary advantage. On the other hand, failure to register will not deprive any miller of his share of any profit made on that transaction. All that we require is a nucleus of millers to work the machine and it does not follow that every individual should be in it. In these circumstances I think the Amendment is unnecessary.
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI should not have intervened had I not gathered that some reference was made by the Mover of the Amendment to the hon. Member for Torquay. I wish to assure the Opposition that this Amendment does not interest me in the least, and that I should not dream of intervening on any Amendment which did not interest me if I did not see some purpose in doing so. They may rest assured that I shall not worry them on this Amendment.
§ Mr. MANDERI feel that I must make some reference to the painful impression made upon loyal supporters of the Government on this side of the Committee by the manner in which the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) intervenes and wastes the time of the Government. He has made the extraordinary suggestion that no supporter of the Government is entitled to move any Amendment, and—
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSI beg to move, in page 28, line 31, to leave out the words "the last foregoing."
This and the next Amendment are merely to correct what I believe to be a 836 misprint or, rather, an error in paragraph 6, which talks about
millers registered in accordance with the provisions of the last foregoing paragraph"—which has nothing to do with registration. It should be:in accordance with paragraph 3 of this Schedule.No doubt the Schedule has been through a somewhat tortuous existence, and at one time the "3" came next to the "6," but it does not now.
§ Sir J. GILMOURI am indebted for this correction. It is obviously a mistake, and I accept the Amendments.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendment made: In page 28, line 31, after the word "paragraph," insert the words "3 of this Schedule."—[Sir S. Cripps.]
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday, 5th April, and to be printed. [Bill 50.]