HC Deb 21 March 1932 vol 263 cc719-37
Mr. ATTLEE

I beg to move, in page 25, to leave out lines 11 to 15.

I do not quite understand what is the reason for putting in this proviso, which runs as follows: Provided that if in any parcel containing flour mixed with substances not produced by the milling of wheat the weight of those substances is fifty per cent. or more of the weight of the parcel, the parcel shall be deemed not to contain flour. It looks to me as if it will mean that parcels containing flour mixed with barley, oatmeal, and so forth, in fact, parcels put up for feeding of stock, will be exempt from payment. I gather that flour, for instance, that is imported mixed with other products will come in free, and I do not see any reason why we should give it that advantage. I notice that the Minister has an Amendment on the Paper to leave out the 50 per cent. and to insert instead 60 per cent., but I think it would be much better if he adopted our Amendment. I see no reason why these particular parcels of mixed flour should be exempt. Is it not going to give a distinct advantage to feeding stuffs that are made up with a minimum of flour, and will they not, therefore, compete with our home production of feeding stuffs? It would be much sounder to delete the proviso so that any kind of flour in a mixture should be chargeable with the quota.

The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Sir John Gilmour)

As the hon. Gentleman has said, this proviso exempts from quota payments any mixture except where the substances other than wheat make 50 per cent. or more of the total weight. I propose to move at a later stage that the percentage be 60. These mixtures are in fact no longer wheat flour. They are mixtures of wheat flour meal with barley flour meal, maize flour and so on. This is of course a technical problem, but I have investigated it very carefully with the whole milling industry. One does not wish to put any burden upon that class of these products which is used for poultry or other feeding. Flour forms a comparatively small proportion of these mixtures, and the only effect, in practice, if we made this burden apply to this kind of mixture would be to deter the use of home-grown wheat. Millers in the country areas would be at a disadvantage, and if they were penalised they would in fact use less British wheat. It is for that reason that we wish to leave these mixtures free. The milling industry as a whole have accepted the Amendment, which I shall subsequently propose, to alter the figure from 50 to 60. In these circumstances I advise the Committee not to accept the Amendment.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

We are anxious to safeguard the consumer, and we see the possibility under this proviso of millers, unless carefully watched, diverting from the present methods of production of commodities used for poultry feeding and such purposes on the farm. They might reduce the quality or increase the number of substances other than flour by dubious means, and thus cheat the intention of the right hon. Gentleman and to some extent the intention of the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman is unwilling to agree to the deletion of this proviso, he might between now and the Report stage see whether suitable words could be found so that at least a minimum proportion of what would be flour would be exempt, and there should be such safeguards that, if the millers attempted to tamper with the normal practice, the Minister would have power to see to it that consumers of bread were not imposed upon, because the right hon. Gentleman has no desire to impose upon the millers. If the right hon. Gentleman will consider that possibility, we may perhaps change our minds.

Sir PERCY HARRIS

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not listen to my hon. Friend. I am astonished that he should desire to extend the scope of this Bill by making flour products mixed with other commodities liable to the tax. On the contrary, we must be thankful for small mercies—

Mr. WILLIAMS

The hon. Gentleman is misinterpreting what I suggested. We are suggesting that the percentage of flour in the mixture ought to be subjected to the quota payment. Instead of, as the hon. Gentleman suggests we are doing, extending the scope of the Bill, we are asking, it to be limited.

Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS

I understand that this proviso was originally put into the Bill at the time when only wheat meal that was milled by the 100 per cent. provender miller was left out of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has now, I understand, accepted an Amendment which will exclude all wheat meal whether milled by a provender miller or not. Is not the result now that this is quite inapplicable in the Bill as it stands, because the right hon. Gentleman is limiting the meaning of flour to flour for human consumption, not including wheat meal, for he is going to eliminate all wheat meal whether milled by a provender miller or not. This Clause was put in when the Bill applied to wheat meal as well as flour, and was, I understand, designed to cover cases where the wheat meal was mixed with other substances for purposes not of human consumption, but of consumption by animal stock.

We suggest leaving out the proviso, because if any wheat meal is going to bear the subsidy through the quota, it does not seem to be reasonable that you should leave out wheat meal which is mixed with other substances, for you will in fact force specialised mixtures upon the farmer. It will be cheaper for him, though perhaps not better for his stock, to buy mixtures which contain only 40 per cent. of wheat meal. It is a very dangerous line to take to try and force a particular mixture upon chicken farmers and the like, because, if you say that in that case the wheat meal carries no quota payment, it will be a big inducement for people to use those mixtures, and not to use a pure 100 per cent. wheat meal which may be a more useful feeding stuff to use. This cutting out of those mixtures with less than 40 per cent. flour will do no good in the end. I understand from the right hon. Gentleman that he is not going to charge the quota payment on wheat meal, that is, on milled wheat not for human consumption. This Sub-section ought to be limited to flour for human consumption or, if it is not going to be so limited, it is unwise to have a proviso which will tend to stabilise a particular type of mixture, that is, a mixture with not more than 40 per cent. of wheat meal.

4.0 p.m.

Sir J. GILMOUR

A great deal of this problem is very technical. I do not think the apprehension of the hon. and learned Gentleman will arise. This decision has been arrived at after very careful consultation with the various interests concerned. Wheatmeal, of course, is exempt as long as it is not used for human consumption. That, I think, is clear. In this case there may be mixing from time to time of a certain amount of flour. Our view is that it would be unreasonable if more than a certain proportion of flour were so mixed without paying the duty, but that, in fact, it is reasonable to give exemption for a certain amount. That is why we have put in this further provision.

Sir S. CRIPPS

Does the right hon. Gentleman suggest that under this Subsection wheatmeal is not included, and that this only means flour for human consumption, because, as I read it, this Clause specifically includes wheat meal.

Sir J. GILMOUR

What, in fact, is going to happen is that pure wheat meal, as far as it is used for animal consumption, will be exempt. We are now dealing with mixtures in which there is a proportion of wheat. I think it is not unreasonable, as between the importer and the home producer, that they should be put more or less on a level basis, and we suggest that this is the best way of doing it. The question as to whether the industry departs from habits and practice must be a matter for careful supervision, and under the inspection and regulations which the Wheat Commission make, there will be ample opportunity, I understand, to test this and to see from time to time whether this is being abused or not. Obviously, the opportunity will arise for dealing with this matter.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word 'fifty,' in line 13, stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 278; Noes, 31.

Division No. 127.] AYES. [3.37 p.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Briscoe, Capt. Richard George Cook, Thomas A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Cooke, Douglas
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Browne, Captain A. C. Cooper, A. Duff
Albery, Irving James Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Copeland, Ida
Allen, Lt.-Col J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Burghley, Lord Cowan, D. M.
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Burnett, John George Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Butt, Sir Alfred Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Cadogan, Hon. Edward Crooke, J. Smedley
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Caine, G. R. Hall- Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)
Aske, Sir Robert William Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)
Atholl, Duchess of Cambpell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley) Cross, R. H.
Bailey, Eric Altred George Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Crossley, A. C.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Caporn, Arthur Cecil Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Carver, Major William H. Davison, Sir William Henry
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar Cautley, Sir Henry S. Dawson, Sir Philip
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Penman, Hon. R D.
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B.(Portsm'th, C.) Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Dickie, John P.
Bernays, Robert Chalmers, John Rutherford Donner, p. W.
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston) Dower, Captain A, V. G.
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Duckworth, George A. V.
Blaker, Sir Reginald Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel
Boothby, Robert John Graham Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)
Bossom, A. C. Chotzner, Alfred James Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Boulton, W. W. Clarke, Frank Elliston, Captain George Sampson
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Clarry, Reginald George Elmley, Viscount
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Clayton, Dr. George C. Emmott, Charles E. G. C.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Cochrane, Commander A. D. Entwistie, Cyril Fullard
Boyce, H. Leslie Colman, N. C. D. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Colville, John Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)
Briant, Frank Conant, R. J. E. Essenhigh, Reginald Clare
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Lindsay, Noel Ker Remer, John R.
Everard, W. Lindsay Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lloyd, Geoffrey Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Flelden, Edward Brocklehurst Locker-Lampoon, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd.Gr'n) Robinson, John Roland
Fleming. Edward Lascelles Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Flint, Abraham John Loder, Captain J. de Vere Rosbotham, S. T.
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Ford, Sir Patrick J. Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Fuller, Captain A. G. Mabane, William Runge, Norah Cecil
Ganzoni, Sir John MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)
Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham) Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)
Glossop, C. W. H. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Gluckstein, Louis Halle McEwen, Captain J. H. F. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Glyn, Major Ralph G. C. McKie, John Hamilton Savory, Samuel Servington
Goff, Sir Park Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Corn'll N.) Scone, Lord
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Granville, Edgar Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Mallalleu, Edward Lancelot Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)
Grimston, R. V. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. Skelton, Archibald Noel
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Gunston, Captain D. W. Marsden, Commander Arthur Smith, R. W.(Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)
Guy, J. C. Morrison Martin, Thomas B. Smithers, Waldron
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Hales, Harold K. Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Meller, Richard James Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Ztl'nd) Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)
Hanley, Dennis A. Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Stewart, William J.
Harris, Sir Percy Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw. Strauss, Edward A.
Hartington, Marquess of Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Hartland, George A. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Summersby, Charles H.
Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Mitcheson, G. G. Sutcliffe, Harold
Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale Tate, Mavis Constance
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A (P'dd'gtn, S.)
Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Templeton, William P.
Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd) Moreing, Adrian C. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.) Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan) Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Holdsworth, Herbert Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Moss, Captain H. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Horobin, Ian M. Muirhead, Major A. J, Turton, Robert Hugh
Horsbrugh, Florence Munro, Patrick Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Howard, Tom Forrest Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N.) Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld) Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) North, Captain Edward T. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Hume, Sir George Hopwood Nunn, William Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) Patrick, Colin M. Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour.
James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H. Peaks, Captain Osbert Weymouth, Viscount
Janner, Barnett Peat, Charles U. White, Henry Graham
Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Perkins, Walter R. D. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Pickering, Ernest H. Wills, Wilfrid D.
Ker, J. Campbell Pike, Cecil F. Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)
Kirkpatrick, William M. Potter, John Windsor-Cilve, Lieut.-Colonel George
Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. Procter, Major Henry Adam Womersley, Walter James
Knebworth, Viscount Pybus, Percy John Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Knight, Hollord Raikes, Henry V. A. M. Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) Worthington, Dr. John V.
Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Leckie, J. A. Ramsbotham, Herwald
Lees-Jones, John Rea, Waiter Russell TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir
Levy, Thomas Reid, David D. (County Down) George Penny.
Liddall, Walter S. Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Maxton, James
Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parkinson, John Allen
Batey, Joseph Hirst, George Henry Price, Gabriel
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Daggar, George Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Wallhead, Richard C.
Edwards, Charles Lawson, John James Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Logan, David Gilbert
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Lunn, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Grundy, Thomas W. McEntee, Valentine L. Mr. Cordon Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
Division No. 128.] AYES. [4.4 p.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Everard, W. Lindsay Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Albery, Irving James Fade, Sir Bertram G. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Margesson, Capt. Henry David R.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Fleming, Edward Lascelles Marsden, Commander Arthur
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Flint, Abraham John Martin, Thomas B.
Aske, Sir Robert William Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Atholl, Duchess of Ford, Sir Patrick J. Meller, Richard James
Bailey, Eric Alfred George Fox, Sir Gilford Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Fuller, Captain A. G. Milts, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Ganzoni, Sir John Mille, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw-
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.) Glossop, C. W. H. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley Gluckstein, Louis Halle Mitcheson, G. G.
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Glyn, Major Ralph G. C. Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Boothby, Robert John Graham Golf, Sir Park Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Bossom, A. C. Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Moreing, Adrian C.
Boulton, W. W. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Griffith, F. Kingsley (Mlddiesbro', W.) Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Grimston, R. V. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Moss, Captain H. J.
Boyce, H. Leslie Gunston, Captain D. W. Muirhead, Major A. J.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Guy, J. C. Morrison Munro, Patrick
Briant, Frank Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Briscoe, Capt. Richard George Hates, Harold K. Newton, Sir Douglas George C
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)
Browne, Captain A. C. Hanley, Dennis A. Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry North, Captain Edward T.
Burghley, Lord Harris, Sir Percy Nunn, William
Burnett, John George Harrington, Marquess of Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Cadogan, Hon. Edward Hartland, George A. Patrick, Colin M.
Caine, G. R. Hall. Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Peake, Captain Osbert
Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle) Peat, Charles U.
Cambpell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley) Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Penny, Sir George
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Perkins, Walter R. D.
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Petherick, M
Carver, Major William H. Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd) Pickering, Ernest H.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Pike, Cecil F.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Holdsworth, Herbert potter, John
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) Horobin, Ian M. Procter, Major Henry Adam
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Horsbrugh, Florence Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Chalmers, John Rutherford Howard, Tom Forrest Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston) Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hume, sir George Hopwood Reid, David D. (County Down)
Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Chotzner, Alfred James Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) Remer, John R.
Clarke, Frank James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H. Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Clayton, Dr. George C. Janner, Barnett Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Cochrane, Commander A. D. Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Robinson, John Roland
Colman, N. C. D. Ker, J. Campbell Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Conant, R. J. E. Kerr, Hamilton W. Rosbotham, S. T.
Cook, Thomas A. Kirkpatrick, William M. Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Cooke, Douglas Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Cooper, A. Duff Knebworth, Viscount Runge, Norah Cecil
Copeland, Ida Knight, Holford Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cowan, D. M. Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)
Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry Latham, Sir Herbert Paul Salmon, Major Isidore
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)
Crooke, J. Smedley Leckie, J. A. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Lees-Jones, John Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Savery, Samuel Servington
Cross, R. H. Levy, Thomas Scone, Lord
Crossley, A. C. Liddall, Walter S. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Lindsay, Noel Ker Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Davison, Sir William Henry Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Dawson, Sir Philip Lloyd, Geoffrey Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Denman, Hon. R D. Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G, (Wd. Gr'n) Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (Handsw'th) Skelton, Archibald Noel
Dickie, John P. Loder, Captain J. de Vere Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Donner, P. W. Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Dower, Captain A. V. G. Mabane, William Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Duckworth, George A. V. MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick) Smithere, Waldron
Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Duggan, Hubert John MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Eastwood, John Francis Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sauthby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. McEwen, Captain J. H. F. Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.
Elliston, Captain George Sampson McKie, John Hamilton Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)
Elmley, Viscount McLean, Major Alan Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)
Emmott, Charles E. G. C. McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Strauss, Edward A.
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Macphereon, Rt. Hon. James I. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Summersby, Charles H. Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)
Sutcliffe, Harold Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Taylor, Vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n, S.) Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) Womersley, Walter James
Templeton, William P. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wood, Sir Murdoch McKezie (Banff)
Thomas, James P L. (Hereford) Watt, Captain George Steven H. Worthington, Dr. John V.
Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles Wells, Sydney Richard Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) Weymouth, Viscount
Touche, Gordon Cosmo Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Tryon, Rt. Hon, George Clement Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) Captain Austin Hudson and Lieut.-
Turton, Robert Hugh Wills, Wilfrid D. Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Grundy, Thomas W. Maxton, James
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen
Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) price, Gabriel
Batey, Joseph Hirst, George Henry Salter, Dr. Alfred
Cove, William G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Tinker, John Joseph
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Wallhead, Richard C.
Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lawson, John James
Edwards, Charles Logan, David Gilbert TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Lunn, William Mr. Gordon Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McEntee, Valentine L.
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Sir J. GILMOUR

I beg to move, in page 25, line 13, to leave out the word "fifty," and to insert instead thereof the word "sixty."

As I explained on the last Amendment, this is an Amendment which raises the percentage of non-flour substances from 50 to 60 per cent.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I beg to move, in page 25, line 18, at the end, to insert the words: and if in any parcel containing wheat offals mixed with flour the weight of the flour is five per cent. or less of the weight of the parcel, the parcel shall be deemed not to contain flour. This Amendment is to deal with a simple process of milling technique. There is a certain amount of flour which is brushed up from the floor, shaken out of the sacks or cleaned out from the machinery from time to time, and which it is the practice of the industry to put into the offal. Plainly, it is not of the character that ought to go into bread and food, and we think that this provision should be made.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Sir S. CRIPPS

I want to make one last despairing effort to try to get the right hon. Gentleman to tell us what he means by millable wheat, because it is, after all, the foundation of this Bill. My right hon. Friend, with that extreme in- genuity which he is always able to show, managed to speak three or four times on Friday last on the subject of what is mill-able wheat without anybody obtaining any further enlightenment as to what intention he has in his mind. It really is a matter of the very greatest importance, and we have not yet been able to appreciate why the right hon. Gentleman should want to use the term "millable wheat" at all—unless he has got in his mind some idea of what he means by millable wheat, and how he is going to define it when the duty of definition falls upon him. There are two possible meanings for millable wheat; one, wheat which is fit to be milled, and the other wheat which it is possible to mill. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us with which of those two this Bill really deals? Is it wheat which is fit to be milled, or wheat which would ordinarily be milled, or wheat which can be milled?

Secondly, we want the right hon. Gentleman to give us some indication of the criteria by which this wheat is to be judged. I presume he is not going to set himself up as the universal arbitrator, to decide on every sample sold in the market whether it is or is not a sample which he thinks should get the subsidy. We are very much concerned to know the basis upon which the whole of this subsidy rests. We discussed on Friday the various matters which were considered of importance as regards the quality of wheat, but the right hon. Gentleman did not give us any indication of whether they are to be laid down as the proper criteria for judging whether wheat should get the subsidy or not. Will he tell us what is in his mind? Why is this phrase "millable wheat" in the Bill rather than simply "wheat"?

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

After so fervent an appeal from my hon. and learned Friend surely the right hon. Gentleman will say something on the subject of mill-able wheat. I do not know whether he has observed how great a part those two words play in this Bill? Up to Clause 18 the words "millable wheat" occur no fewer than 22 times, but in spite of that we have had no definition of what will be regarded as millable wheat. We had a useful discussion on Clause 11, which deals with the standard to which wheat must conform in order to be deemed "millable wheat" for the purpose of this Bill, but we have not yet been informed what standard will be prescribed. Surely the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is so great an expert on agrarian subjects, will step in where his right hon. Friend has failed and give us some idea of what "millable wheat" is to mean under any regulations that are made. I know the right hon. Gentleman's capacity for negotiating difficult political corners. We have seen his acrobatics on two or three occasions, and I admire his agility in negotiating difficult problems. At least we are entitled to know something about the definition which will bring in the 85 per cent. of wheat upon which deficiency payments will be made. As the consumer is called upon to pay, he ought to know in advance what "millable wheat" will be, and surely one or other of the right hon. Gentlemen, both of whom are well known experts in this particular field, can tell us the standard for millable wheat and how those two curious words will be defined.

Mr. DAVID GRENFELL

I would like the Minister of Agriculture to give me his attention while I submit one or two conundrums in connection with the Bill. I should like a further explanation of what is meant by the word "price." We have a definition in this Clause, where it states that "price" means, in relation to any wheat, the price obtainable or obtained therefor exclusive of any charge for transportation. A farmer may sell his wheat on the farm, or in the market place, some 20, 30 or 50 miles away. The price at the farm may be 25s. or 26s. per quarter, and if he goes to market he may get a similar price. Is it intended that the farmer shall be given something for transporting that wheat? Will the Minister look at me, please? Will he state whether the price does include an allowance to the farmer for taking his wheat off the land to a market place that may be 20, 30 or 50 miles away? It costs a good deal to transport a load of wheat. If the roads are bad a farmer may have to spend the best part of the day with a team of horses taking a load of four or five quarters of wheat a distance of five or 10 miles. Is some allowance to be made to him for the cost of transportation?

The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Major Sir Archibald Sinclair)

In replying to the speech of the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) I feel almost as though I were returning thanks for the toast of my health. I hardly recognise myself either as the great agricultural expert which he described me in one part of his speech or as the expert in acrobatics which he described me in another part. At any rate, this is not an occasion for a display of acrobatic expertise.

Mr. COVE

Do you recognise yourself as a, Free Trader?

Sir A. SINCLAIR

With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. D. Grenfell), the price would certainly be the price on the farm, and, if necessary, the transport charges-would be deducted. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, it would be quite impossible and unfair as between farmer and farmer to give any other standard. The main discussion on this Clause has centred round the question, What is millable wheat? I have not the slightest hesitation in adopting one of the three alternatives which the right hon. and learned Member put to me. I forget all the alternatives, but be mentioned one which provides a simple, clear and broad definition, and that is "wheat which would ordinarily be milled." That would rule out wheat which it is not possible to mill—wheat which is dirty, or infected with disease, or contains injurious impurities. All that kind of wheat would be ruled out. The hon. and learned Gentleman asked my right hon. Friend to give a precise definition of what millable wheat will be, but to do so would be con- trary to the provisions of Clause 11, which has already been passed by the Committee, and which prescribes that the Minister, when making regulations prescribing the standard to which wheat must conform in order to be deemed "minable wheat" must only do so after consultation with the Wheat Commission. Until that consultation takes place I am afraid we cannot go further than the broad terms which I have given.

Sir P. HARRIS

I am afraid the contribution made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Scotland serves only to make the definition of "millable wheat" even more confused, more "up in the clouds," than before. Of the alternatives which were suggested to him he selected the definition "wheat which ordinarily would be milled." If that is to be the definition, I suggest, with great respect, that it alters the Bill, because I understand that 90 per cent. of the wheat which will get the subsidy is not ordinarily milled, the greater part of it being used for poultry food. I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman, because he is trying to succeed where the Minister of Agriculture has failed. Even two Scotsmen cannot clear up the meaning of "minable wheat." I have made careful inquiries from practical millers and I am assured that all wheat is mill-able, but that does not mean that all wheat will make good flour. A lot of the wheat produces flour not suitable to make the bread which we are accustomed to eat. It will make bread, but bread of an unattractive character; bread which may taste all right, but looks all wrong. I suggest that the two right hon. Gentlemen—the Liberal and the Conservative, a combine of two fellow Scotsmen—should put their heads together and really try to get a definition such as will be clear to the people inserted in the Schedule or seine part of the Bill.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Baronet is overlooking the Clause to which the Secretary of State for Scotland referred, Clause 11, which shuts out any possibility of putting in any more precise definition regarding millable wheat than appear there.

Sir P. HARRIS

We shall have to consider that Clause again on Report stage; it would be out of order to pursue the point further now. I want to help the Minister. I want this Bill to work, and I want it to cause as little hardship to the milling industry and to give as much help to the farmer as possible. If we are to spend £6,000,000 we ought to get good value for our money, and I suggest that somewhere in the Bill words ought to be inserted to clear up this point.

4.30 p.m.

Mr. PRICE

I think the Minister of Agriculture ought to recognise that under this Bill we are going to subsidise the farmers. We have to consider what is the quality of the article for which the country will be called upon to pay. By this Bill we are calling upon the people of the country who eat bread to find £6,000,000 sterling to be paid in subsidies—

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid the hon. Member is going back upon what has already been decided by the Committee.

Mr. PRICE

I think "millable wheat" ought to be more definitely defined.

The CHAIRMAN

That question would be in order on Clause 11, but the matter has already been disposed of, and it cannot be discussed any further at this point.

Mr. LANSBURY

According to Clause 18 "millable wheat" means wheat which conforms to the standard prescribed by regulations made by the Minister. Why cannot we discuss what might be described by the Minister as "millable wheat" when he comes to prescribe it? There is nothing in this Bill to define "millable wheat." The Bill says it is wheat which conforms to the standard prescribed by the Minister. That is something which is really not described in the Bill at all, but in the regulations to be laid down by the Minister, and surely we are entitled to discuss that point.

The CHAIRMAN

The right hon. Member must accept the interpretation here of the definition of "millable wheat" described in Clause 11, Subsection (1), or more correctly speaking in Clause 11, Subsection (1, a). By the adoption of Clause 11 the Committee has already disposed of the question as to what is "minable wheat," and how it may be ascertained whether any wheat is millable. The definition given on the top of page 24 of the Bill is only for the purpose of interpreting the particular expression "millable wheat" wherever it occurs.

Mr. LANSBURY

Clause 11, Subsection (1) provides that the Minister may, after consultation with the Wheat Commission, make regulations for giving effect to the provisions of this Act. The Sub-section does not say "shall" but "may" make regulations.

Sub-section (1) proceeds: and such regulations may in particular make provision— (a) for prescribing the standard to which wheat must conform in order to be deemed for the purposes of this Act to be millable wheat. I read that in connection with the words on the top of page 24 of the Bill which says: 'millable wheat' means wheat which conforms to the standard prescribed by regulations made by the Minister. I submit that Clause 11 does not say anything at all as to what is millable wheat, but it says that the Minister may do certain things. I am arguing that this is not a satisfactory way of achieving that object.

The CHAIRMAN

I do not want to enter into an argument as to the difference between "may" and "shall." In this particular case, that question is sufficiently answered by saying that the Minister of Agriculture has to make this Measure as it is passed work. The Committee has already decided that millable wheat is such wheat as may be so under regulations made by the Minister for prescribing the standard to which such wheat must conform, and that question has been disposed of. The words at the top of page 24 of the Bill define what millable wheat means in accordance with Clause 11, and it provides that the expression "millable wheat" means the same thing in other places in the Bill where it occurs.

Mr. LANSBURY

The Clause will not convey what you and I, Mr. Chairman, say to one another across the Table.

The CHAIRMAN

That is exactly my point, but it will be defined under Clause 11.

Mr. LANSBURY

Clause 17 does not define millable wheat, but it says: the Minister may". You, Mr. Chairman, say that the Minister has to work the Act, and therefore he will have to define what is mill-able wheat We do not know what it is, and the Bill does not say who shall define it, but it says that the Minister may make regulations. We want to discuss what is and what is not millable wheat. Up to the present nobody has told us.

The CHAIRMAN

I cannot allow this point to be discussed much further. The Committee has already decided what is millable wheat, and it is now beyond the bounds of the Committee to define mill-able wheat any further.

Mr. LANSBURY

Clause it says that the Minister "may" make regulations, but it does not say "shall."

The CHAIRMAN

It is quite sufficient for me to say that the Committee has-passed the Clause which gives tie Minister power to define what is millable wheat and, having done that, it would be out of order to define it in such a way as to take away that power from the Minister.

Mr. COVE

As I read Clause 11, and I have read it very carefully, it seems to me that it only gives power to the Minister to consult the Wheat Commission, who can only make regulations after that consultation has taken place—

The CHAIRMAN

This discussion is really going too far, and the hon. Member is now going back to a discussion of the meaning of Clause 11. I have shown quite clearly in my Rulings that a more definitive definition of millable wheat is not a matter which can be discussed on Clause 18, and I hope hon. Members will adhere to my Ruling.

Sir S. CRIPPS

The Secretary of State for Scotland has given us what he states is the view of the Government as regards the probable meaning of millable wheat which is likely to be adopted in connection with the administration of this Bill. There is only one thing I want to say, in order that we may have it quite certain that there will be no doubt as to the precise meaning of those words. The Secretary of State for Scotland has told us that this Bill will only apply to wheat which would be ordinarily milled. We know from what has been said by the Minister of Agriculture and his Department that the wheat which would ordinarily be milled is 15 per cent. of the total wheat grown in this country. [Interruption.] At any rate, the percentage is somewhere between 9 and 15 per cent. I am sure the Lord President of the Council will agree with me as a farmer that what I have stated is what is meant, and the Secretary of State for Scotland has told us that it is only to 10 per cent, of the wheat that the subsidy will apply at all.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES

I want to put one or two questions to the Minister on this Clause. First of all, I want to ask a question in regard to the interpretations contained in this Clause. Last week, I raised a point in regard to the interpretation of the word "custom," and the reply given by the Minister of Agriculture did not give any interpretation at all of the meaning of the word "custom" in Clause 12. I should have thought that Clause 18, which deals with interpretations, would have given some meaning to that word. In the definition of the word "miller" in this Clause I want to know what is meant by the word "person." I can understand that a farmer is a person, but the millers of this country are sometimes limited liability companies. There is, for example, the Co-operative Wholesale Society. I want to know if the word "person" includes such organisations as the Co-operative Wholesale Society. I also wish to know where the Isle of Man stands under this Bill. I do not see a word about the Isle of Man in the interpretation Clause. Sub-section (1) of the Clause provides that 'Cereal year' means the period of 12 months beginning on the first day of August in every year and ending on the thirty-first day of July next following. What is happening in this country at the moment? I am not so sure that this Bill will fit in with the complete change in the climatic conditions which appertain to this country now. We have had 65 days without rain, even in Manchester—

The CHAIRMAN

That argument would be more in order on the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr. DAVIES

I will ask one more question. Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to tell us whether the word "person" does include limited liability companies, and such organisations as the Co-operative Wholesale Society, or any other body of millers?

Sir A. SINCLAIR

The word "person" is a recognised legal term which includes corporations, and so it must include the Co-operative Wholesale Society. In reply to what has been said by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps), when I said that millable wheat meant wheat that would be ordinarily milled, I did not mean any particular parcel of wheat, but wheat which would be ordinarily milled under the provisions of this Bill, and I was referring to the type, kind, or quality of wheat.

Sir S. CHIRPS

I was not referring to-any particular sample a wheat, but only to the 10 per cent. which is ordinarily milled, and in no case could it exceed 10 per cent. of the crop.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

I am informed that the hon. and learned Gentleman is mistaken in the proportion of 10 percent. which he gives, but, at any rate, it is not limited in quantity under my definition. There is no intention to limit it as to quantity, and I did not intend so to indicate when I put it first. It is not a limitation as to quantity, but as to quality; it is limited to the sort of wheat that is ordinarily milled. That is the intention of the Bill.

Mr. DENMAN

In an administrative Clause it is a merit that the definitions should be clear. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman what he really means by "home-grown." Does he mean grown in the United Kingdom by a registered grower, or does he mean grown by a grower registered in the United, Kingdom? If he means either of these two things, why does he not say so?

Sir A. SINCLAIR

it is quite clear. The Clause says: 'Home-grown' means grown by registered growers in the United Kingdom.

Mr. DENMAN

Grown or registered?

Sir A. SINCLAIR

Registered in the United Kingdom.

Sir S. CRIPPS

Does the right hon Gentleman mean that, if a grower who has been registered in the United Kingdom grows wheat in Canada on a ranch, that wheat will come under this Bill?

Sir A. SINCLAIR

I can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that I do not. I give him a solemn and clear and definite assurance that it does not mean that.

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 2289; Noes, 39.

Division No. 129.] AYES. [4.47 p.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Howard, Tom Forrest
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Cross, R. H. Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Crossley, A. C. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Albery, Irving James Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandaman (B'k'nh'd.) Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Hume, Sir George Hopwood
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Davison, Sir William Henry Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Dawson, Sir Philip Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Denman, Hon. R. D. James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.
Aske, Sir Robert William Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Jesson, Major Thomas E.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Dickie, John P. Joel, Dudley J. Barnato
Atholl, Duchess of Donner, P. W. Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)
Atkinson, Cyril Dower, Captain A. V. G. Ker, J. Campbell
Bailey, Erie Alfred George Drewe, Cedric Kerr, Hamilton W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Duckworth, George A. V. Kirkpatrick, William M.
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Duggan, Hubert John Knebworth, Viscount
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar Eastwood, John Francis Knight, Holford
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Beaumont, M. w. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Elliston, Captain George Sampson Latham, Sir Herbert Paul
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.) Elmley, Viscount Law, Sir Alfred
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Emrys-Evans, P. V. Leckie, J. A.
Blindell, James Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Lees-Jones, John
Boothby, Robert John Graham Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Lennox-Boyd, A. T.
Bossom, A. C. Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Levy, Thomas
Boulton, w. W. Falle Sir Bertram G. Liddall, Walter S.
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Lindsay, Noel Ker
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Llewellin, Major John J.
Boyce, H. Leslie Ford, Sir Patrick J. Lloyd, Geoffrey
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Fox, Sir Gifford Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G.(Wd. Gr'n)
Briscoe, Capt. Richard George Fuller, Captain A. G. Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Ganzoni, Sir John Loder, Captain J. de Vere
Buchan, John Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Burghley, Lord Glossop, C. W. H. Mabane, William
Burnett, John George Gluckstein, Louis Halle MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick)
Cadogan, Hon. Edward Glyn, Major Ralph G. C. MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Caine, G. R. Hall- Goff, Sir Park MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)
Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) Goldie, Noel B. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley) Goodman, Colonel Albert W. McEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Gower, Sir Robert McKie, John Hamilton
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Granville, Edgar McLean, Major Alan
Carver, Major William H. Graves, Marjorie McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Chalmers, John Rutherford Grimston, R. V. Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgbaston) Gunston, Captain D. W. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) Guy, J. C. Morrison Margesson, Capt. Henry David R.
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Marsden, Commander Arthur
Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric Hales, Harold K. Martin, Thomas B.
Chotzner, Alfred James Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Clarke, Frank Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Clarry, Reginald George Hanley, Dennis A. Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Clayton, Dr. George C. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hartington, Marquess of Milne, John Sydney Wardlaw-
Cochrane, Commander A. D. Hartland, George A. Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Colman, N. C. D. Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Conant, R. J. E. Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle) Mitcheson, G. G.
Cook, Thomas A. Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Cooke, Douglas Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Cooper, A. Duff Hellger, Captain F. F. A. Moreing, Adrian C.
Copeland, Ida Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsf'd) Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Morrison, William Shephard
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hornby, Frank Moss, Captain H. J.
Crooke, J. Smedley Horobin, Ian M. Muirhead, Major A. J.
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Horsbrugh, Florence Munro, Patrick
Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Rosbotham, S. T. Taylor, vice-Admiral E.A.(P'dd'gt'n, S.)
Newton, Sir Douglas George C. Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) Templeton, William P.
Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld) Runge, Norah Cecil Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
North, Captain Edward T. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Nunn, William Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside) Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. Salmon, Major Isidore Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Patrick, Colin M. Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Peake, Captain Osbert Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Turton, Robert Hugh
Pearson, William G. Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Peat, Charles U. Savery, Samuel Servington Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Perkins, Walter R. D. Scone, Lord Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Petherick, M Selley, Harry R. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Pike, Cecil F. Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Potter, John Simmonds, Oliver Edwin Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour.
Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. sir A. (C'thness) Wells, Sydney Richard
Procter, Major Henry Adam Skelton, Archibald Noel Weymouth, Viscount
Raikes, Henry V. A. M. Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) Smith, R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) Smith-Carington, Neville W. Wills, Wilfrid D.
Ratcliffe, Arthur Smithers, Waldron Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)
Rea, Walter Russell Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Womersley, Walter James
Reid, David D. (County Down) Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingslsy
Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Remer, John R. Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde) Worthington, Dr. John V.
Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. Stanley, Hon, O. F. G. (Westmorland)
Robinson, John Roland Strauss, Edward A. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart Sir George Penny and Lieut.-
Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward.
NOES.
Adams, D. M (Poplar, South) Grundy, Thomas W. Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Maxton, James
Satey, Joseph Harris, Sir Percy Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)
Briant, Frank Hirst, George Henry Parkinson, John Allen
Cove, William G. Holdsworth, Herbert Price, Gabriel
Cowan, D. M. Janner, Barnett Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Thorne, William James
Daggar, George Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Wallhead, Richard C.
Edwards, Charles Lawson, John James Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Logan, David Gilbert
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lunn, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) McEntee, Valentine L. Mr. Gordon Macdonald and Mr. Groves.