§ Major ELLIOTI beg to move, in page 16, line 24, column 1, at the beginning, to insert the words "Exceeds 2d. and."
This Amendment deals with the general alterations which we are making in the scale of the Entertainments Duty, and is by way of concession to the case which has been presented in the Debate. There are two points which have been stressed, one on social grounds and the other on economic grounds. One is that a sum of 7½d. would be extremely awkward for the proprietors of cinemas to handle, because it would be very difficult in the rush hours to give change for this sum. Of course, it might have been dealt with by a steepening up and making it 2d., and I thought it was rather a dangerous argument to bring forward, especially in face of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, However, he has on this occasion decided to temper justice with mercy and to lower it downwards instead of upwards. I think that will deal with a point which cinema proprietors, in particular, and certain other entertainments have brought forward.
The other point was that it would be a hardship for the citizens, and especially for the more junior citizens, if the tax were charged on the price of admission as low as a penny. The penny rush was brought forward with great force by the hon. Member for Everton (Mr. Hall-Caine) and others, as a thing which should not be hampered by the State. 652 The Chancellor, whose sympathy with the desire, if possible, to exempt the very lowest of these grades from tax has been shown so plainly in the past, has decided that the tax can stand the remission for the two lower grades of 1d. and 2d., so that there will be no State charge whatever on those two lower grades. This will be an advantage also to certain classes of men connected with travelling shows. It has been represented that these shows are small, that the tax of a halfpenny was an unreasonably large one to place upon them, and that they represented an ancient and honourable tradition which it would be a great pity to break up.
Lieut.-Colonel WATTS-MORGANWill the hon. Gentleman explain what effect this will have upon the Gold Standard?
§ Major ELLIOTThat only means I shall be very unwilling to give way to the hon. and gallant Member for Rhondda (Lieut.-Colonel Watts-Morgan) another time, and that would be a great pity. The exemption of the lower ranges is a reasonable concession which can be defended from many points of view. It is also a concession which will make it administratively easier to work the tax, in that the inspection and calculation necessary for dealing with these small shows with low admission prices would present a greater problem than the tax yield would probably warrant. Accordingly, I hope we shall find that the concessions which the Chancellor is making 653 —and which I am discussing together because I understand it is the desire of the Committee to treat the whole subject of the range of Entertainments Duty, as amended by this and a subsequent Amendment, in one—will be acceptable to the Committee. I understand from the Opposition that they do not intend to divide, save, possibly, on the general Schedule of the new duty as a whole. I hope it will be possible for the Committee to accept the scale as now amended and let us pass on to further business.
§ Mr. JAMES WELSH (Paisley)I think the Committee will have listened with interest to tire statement made by the Financial Secretary, and I should like, on behalf of those interested in the matter, not only in connection with cinemas, but all places of entertainment and sport, to express our indebtedness to him for having met us in this matter. We are gratified with the concession, because in my opinion the penny which is now proposed carries quite a proportion of burden of the tax as compared with other grades. I think it can be justified on many grounds. At any rate we are indebted to the Chancellor for giving way and to the Financial Secretary for his help in the matter.
With regard to the question of the duty up to 2d., I am very sorry the Chancellor has not seen his way to go just a little further and give way up to 3d. By abolishing the duty on one penny and on twopence, he has given us two-thirds of what we want, but in effect it hardly works out like that. The yield from one penny and twopence is very small indeed, and I had hoped, that in view of the very moderate suggestion put forward the Chancellor would see his way to go up to threepence. This can be discussed from the point of view of the entertainment industry and also from the public point of view. As far as the entertainment industry is concerned, in the case of one penny and twopence, in the conditions with regard to talkies and other things, it means practically no assistance to them at all. On the other hand, if the Chancellor had seen his way to include the threepenny tax, he would have included many of the junior football clubs to which reference has been made, and as far as cinemas are concerned it would have had the effect of leaving the 654 matinée performances, which are to a large extent attended by the unemployed, free of tax. As the proposal we now have is for a penny tax on admissions of threepence, that means 33⅓ per cent. tax on that particular price, which seems to me rather heavier than can be justified.
I can quite understand that the Chancellor expects to get £2,500,000 from this alteration, and I realise the difficulties of his advisers with regard to the yield of this tax, because the only real data they have is the yield of the tax when conditions in the industry were altogether different. From my own personal knowledge and with the advice of those who know a great deal about this matter, I can assure him that the yield will be rather greater than he anticipates, and he could have given way on this threepence without reducing the amount available for his Budget. I should like to appeal to the Chancellor that on Report stage to-morrow he should consider the question of going to threepence. From the point of view of the cinema proprietors it would help them, because with the smaller places, which are working in areas where economic conditions are very bad, in some cases the proprietors are carrying on under very grave difficulties. These difficulties would be accentuated by the tax on fourpence, fivepence and sixpence now being added, and if it had been possible to meet us in regard to threepence, it would have made things a little easier for those in the industry.
The Chancellor knows that the recent development in entertainment has been in the direction of building up larger places. The places which were already contributing to the tax were the smaller places, and the only way they could possibly continue was by reducing prices and attracting patrons in that way. Unfortunately, by these additions to the tax the position has been made worse and more difficult, and I shall not be very much surprised if as the result of these increased taxes on the smaller prices, quite a number of places have to go out of existence altogether. I do not think the Chancellor will gain as far as revenue is concerned.
There is only one other point I want to deal with. I have not made any suggestion as to how more money could be got from the dearer seats—
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI would like to point out that if a general discussion is allowed to take place on this Amendment, the other Amendments cannot be discussed at length. On that understanding I will allow a general discussion on this Amendment.
§ Mr. WELSHWith regard to high-class concerts, and more particularly orchestral concerts, the position is one of very great difficulty. I speak from personal knowledge on an orchestral committee, and I know that three or four of the largest orchestras give employment to musicians who would otherwise probably not be employed. These orchestras afford an opportunity for the training of musicians. The point I wish to emphasise is that under the Schedule that we are discussing there is a considerable increase in the tax which bears very hardly in the case of concerts of this kind. These various musical organisations have issued a prospectus and they point out that what is now proposed means a 100 per cent. increase of the tax. I hope that in cases where the tickets are sold before the beginning of the session the new rate of tax will not be insisted upon, and that those tickets will be issued on the basis of lie present rate of taxation. I appeal to the Chancellor to give special consideration with regard to the 3d. admission and the placing of 1d. on the 6d.
§ Mr. P. SNOWDENI rise to answer two specific points which have been put to me by the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Welsh) who is so well informed on this subject. The charge of 3d. admission is a very popular price, and a very large number of tickets are sold at that price. Therefore, I cannot share the view which has been expressed by the hon. Member for Paisley that if we were to accept his suggestion it would not involve any considerable loss of revenue. I agree that in view of the altered circumstances of the operation of the tax it is very difficult to estimate what the yield of the tax will be from the lower priced seats. I am told that it is very likely that if we were to give a remission in the case of the 3d. seats it would involve a very considerable loss of revenue. I confess that I have no enthusiasm in recommending this additional tax. My views on this subject are very well known and have often been expressed.
656 It must not be forgotten that when I reduced the Entertainments Duty on a former occasion I sacrificed £4,000,000 revenue by remission of taxation on the low priced seats. I should have been very pleased if I could possibly have done something more than I am now doing in this direction. With regard to what the hon. Member for Paisley said, I am afraid that I cannot hold out any hope that I shall be able to reconsider this matter between now and the Report stage. I have given a good deal of personal attention to this subject, and I should have been very glad if I could have made any further concessions. I would like to say, with regard to the organisations to which the hon. Member for Paisley has referred, that I have much sympathy with musicians in these hard times, and I am anxious not to do anything that would increase their hardships.
§ Mr. ALPASSI have heard with great disappointment the statement which has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I regret his decision that he cannot make any further concessions in regard to the low priced seats. These proposals ask for a penny tax on the 3d. seats and that is going to fall very heavily upon the children of the poor. In my Division there are several cinemas which cater almost exclusively for this class of people, and I know, from my contact with the families, that these low-priced seats are the only kind of entertainment that the children of the poor people can afford to attend. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself will agree that in these times, when wages are low and unemployment is so rife, it is going to make it practically impossible—
§ Mr. P. SNOWDENThe hon. Member is all wrong.
§ Mr. ALPASSThe right hon. Gentleman is keeping the tax upon the low-priced seats—
§ Mr. SNOWDENNo, not on the 2d. seats.
§ Mr. ALPASSI am supporting the plea put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. J. Welsh) that the exemption from tax should be extended to 6d. seats—
§ Mr. SNOWDENHe did not say that.
§ Mr. ALPASSHe asked for some further concession to which the right hon. Gentleman was unwilling to agree. This is an additional tax upon the entertainment of the poor, of whom I represent a very large number. I was talking to an unemployed man's wife in my Division the other day, and she assured me that they were not able to go to an entertainment once in six months, because of their poverty. It is stretching the matter too far to ask these people to pay an additional tax on the very small bit of entertainment which in present circumstances they are able to afford.
§ Mr. MESSERI desire to express my appreciation of the concession which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made. I do not say that because I like this tax at all, and I am not speaking on behalf of the cinema industry or the entertainment industry, but on behalf of what I believe to be the most important section of the community, namely, the children. I have more faith in the children than I have in the present
§ generation, and, so far as my experience goes—and it has been very largely among children—I am certain that the concession will enable a large number of children to get entertainment which otherwise they would not be able to get. There are entertainments which are organised specially for children—not necessarily cinema entertainments, but, in some instances, a special type of variety entertainment—and which only children are allowed to attend. The prices of admission to entertainments of this type will be increased in consequence of the tax, and I am very glad that this remission has been made.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made: In page 16, line 25, column 1, leave out "5d.," and insert, instead thereof "6d."
§ In line 26, column 1, leave out "5d.," and insert instead thereof "6d."—[Mr. P. Snowden.]
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the Second Schedule to the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 230; Noes, 130.
659| Division No. 513.] | AYES. | [9.50 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cobb, Sir Cyril | Fison, F. G. Clavering |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Foot, Isaac |
| Albery, Irving James | Cohen, Major J. Brunei | Ford, Sir P. J. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Colfox, Major William Philip | Forestier-Walker, Sir L |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Colman, N. C. D. | Galbraith, J. F. W. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Colville, Major D. J. | Ganzoni, Sir John |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Conway, Sir W. Martin | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Cooper, A. Duff | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Courtauld, Major J. S. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) |
| Atkinson, C. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Gillett, George M, |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Cranborne, Viscount | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Balniel, Lord | Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Glassey, A. E. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Gower, Sir Robert |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) |
| Berry, Sir George | Cuniltte-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Granville, E. |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Dairymple-White, Lt-Col. Sir Godfrey | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Birchall, Major sir John Dearman | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Greene, W. P. Crawford |
| Blindell, James | Davies, Dr. Vernon | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Gritten, W, G. Howard |
| Boyce, Leslie | Dawson, Sir Philip | Gunston, Captain D. W. |
| Broadbent, Colonel J. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) |
| Buchan, John | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Duckworth. G. A. V. | Hanbury, C. |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry |
| Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Harris, Percy A. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Eden, Captain Anthony | Hartington, Marquess of |
| Caine, Hall-, Derwent | Edge, Sir William | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Haslam, Henry C. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Elmley, Viscount | Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Hertnessy, Major Sir G. R. J. |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller |
| Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton | Everard, W. Lindsay | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Chamberlain Rt. Hn. Sir J.A.(Birm., W.) | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer |
| Christie, J. A. | Ferguson. Sir John | Hurd, Percy A. |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Fielden, E. B. | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. |
| Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Inskip, Sir Thomas | O'Connor, T. J. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Jones, Sir G.W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Somerset, Thomas |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) | Perkins, W. R. D. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland) |
| Kindersley, Major G. M. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Power, Sir John Cecil | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Lamb, Sir J. Q | Pybus, Percy John | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W. |
| Latham, H. P. (Scarboro' & Whitby) | Ramsbotham, H. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Law, sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Rathbone, Eleanor | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Train, J. |
| Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Reid, David D, (County Down) | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Llewellin, Major J. J. | Remer, John R. | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Rentoul, Sir Gervals S | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Long, Major Hon. Erie | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| McConnell, Sir Joseph | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Rosbotham, D. S. T. | White, H. G. |
| Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Ross, Ronald D. | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Macquisten, F. A. | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Withers, Sir John James |
| Margesson, Captain H. D. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Markham, S. F. | Savery, S. S. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Scott, James | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Millar, J. D. | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Milne, Wardlaw-, J. S. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome | Wright, Brig. Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k) |
| Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Simms, Major-General J. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) | |
| Muirhead, A. J. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (Caithness) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Nall-Cain, A. R. N. | Skelton, A. N. | Sir George Penny and Captain Austin Hudson. |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | |
| Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (Fife, West) | Hayes, John Henry | Palmer, E. T. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Herriotts, J. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hicks, Ernest George | Potts, John S. |
| Arnott, John | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Price, M. P. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hoffman, P. C. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Ayles, Walter | Hopkin, Daniel | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Ritson, J. |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Jenkins, Sir William | Romerll, H. G. |
| Barr, James | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Batey, Joseph | Kelly, W. T. | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) |
| Benson, G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Sanders, W. S. |
| Bowen, J. W. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Sandham, E. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Kinley, J. | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Kirkwood, D. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Brooke, w. | Lawrence, Susan | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Shield, George William |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Lawson, John James | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Buchanan, G. | Leach, W. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) | Longden, F. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Cameron, A. G. | McElwee, A. | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Cape, Thomas | McEntee, V. L. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Clarke, J. S. | MacLaren, Andrew | Strauss, G. R. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Sullivan, J. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | McShane, John James | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Toole, Joseph |
| Daggar, George | Marcus, M. | Vaughan, David |
| Dalton, Hugh | Marley, J. | Viant, S. P. |
| Dukes, C. | Mathers, George | Watkins, F. C. |
| Duncan, Charles | Maxton, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Dunnico, H. | Messer, Fred | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Ede, James Chuter | Middleton, G. | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Egan, W. H. | Milner, Major J. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Freeman, Peter | Montague, Frederick | Whiteley, William (Blaydon) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Morley, Raiph | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) | Mort, D. L. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Muggeridge, H. T. | Young, Sir R. (Lancaster, Newton) |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Noel Baker, p. J. | |
| Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth. C.) | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hardie, David (Rutherglen) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Charleton. |
| Hardie, G. D. (Springburn) | Owen, H. F. (Hereford) | |
| Haycock, A. W. | Palin, John Henry |
§ Third Schedule (Provisions for giving effect to the change in the standard rate in income Tax for the year 1931–32) ordered to stand part of the Bill.