§ Mr. S. BALDWINWill the Prime Minister tell the House what business he proposes to take to-night?
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald)The purpose of suspending the Eleven o'Clock Rule to-night is to secure the two outstanding Votes which are due for the Report stage.
§ Mr. BALDWINPerhaps the right hon. Gentleman does not realise that the First Commissioner of Works last night and the night before last gave us an assurance that these Votes would be taken at a reasonable hour, and does the right hon. Gentleman think that 11 o'clock at night is a reasonable hour, especially in the light of the observation of the Secretary for Mines a quarter of an hour ago that he had a long and complicated statement to make?
§ The PRIME MINISTERIf I am correctly informed, the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner did not say "a reasonable hour," but "a reasonable discussion." [HON. MEMBERS "No, a reasonable hour!"] A reasonable discussion—that is what has been conveyed to me. However, it does not matter. As a matter of fact, all old hands in this House know that the Report stage of the Votes of Supply are very frequently discussed at 11 o'clock.
Commander Sir BOLTON EYRES MONSELLIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the First Commissioner of Works did not only say at a reasonable hour—and it is absolutely clear what was in the right hon. Gentleman's mind—but that he went on to say, 602
It must not be taken that we are going to give a day."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd March, 1931; col. 361, Vol. 249.]But, quite apart from the pledge which I consider was given on behalf of His Majesty's Government, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that a couple of hours might be given at a reasonable time to discuss something to which His Majesty's Opposition attaches importance, out of the weeks that are being wasted?
§ The PRIME MINISTERIf the right hon. Gentleman talks about weeks that have been wasted, he will find me as adamant as a rock, but if he puts it to me as a reasonable request made by the Opposition, I always do my very best to meet that. I do, however, think it is quite reasonable in the circumstances to ask for these Votes. At the same time, during the day there will be opportunities for the exchange of views upon it, and I shall be only too glad to agree to anything which is agreed to by the usual representatives who arrange these things. But I must not be assumed to admit at this moment that it is unreasonable to ask for these Votes.
§ Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINWas the right hon. Gentleman present at Question Time, when the Secretary for Mines declined, or, at least, begged to be excused from answering three specific questions on a subject of importance, on the ground that he was going to make a statement on the Report stage? He was pressed again for a specific answer to the specific question, quite apart from the larger statement he wished to make. Therefore, is it not reasonable, when he withholds the information at Question Time, that it should at least be given at an hour which serves the public interest?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am always sympathetic with the claims of an Opposition. I have spent most of my life in Opposition, and if the right hon. Gentleman will leave it where I have left it, that during the day there will be an opportunity of discussing the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the proposal, I shall be only too glad to come to any agreement.
§ Mr. S. BALDWINThere is one point I would put to the right hon. Gentleman. I notice that the Army Vote is down for Tuesday, and I am informed that the 603 Army Estimates are not yet in the Vote Office. But, first of all, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us the business for next week?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI am not going to complain that the right hon. Gentleman is disclosing secrets. The business for next week will be:
Monday: The Motion in the name of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs approving Accession to the General Act for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes.
Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday: We propose to move Mr. Speaker out of the Chair on going into Committee of Supply on the Army, Navy and Air Estimates respectively, and to take the following essential Votes in Committee of Supply:
Tuesday: Army Estimates, Votes A, 1, 10, 13, 14 and 15.
Wednesday: Navy Estimates, Votes A, 1, 10 and 2; Supplementary Estimate, 1930, and Excess Vote, 1929.
Thursday: Air Estimates, Votes A, 1, 4, 3 and 8.
Friday: Small Landholders and Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill, further stages.
The Army Estimates will be published to-night. The Navy Estimates have been circulated this morning. The Army Estimates and the Air Estimates will be available to-morrow morning. As a matter of fact, I believe that if hon. Members will go to the Vote Office, they will find them to-night, but they will be circulated tomorrow.
§ Sir DENNIS HERBERTWill the right hon. Gentleman consider one point with regard to the Report stage of these two Supplementary Estimates? The first one deals, I believe, with the question of the Washington Embassy. Some of my hon. Friends will take same time to discuss that, but I want the Prime Minister to be good enough specially to consider the second one—the Mines Department Vote. That Supplementary Estimate deals with an entirely new service, and when it was taken in Committee the Secretary for Mines admitted that he was not prepared with full in- 604 formation on some of the points about which he was asked, and he explained that he thought the full information would be given on the ordinary Estimates. Of course, there have been no ordinary Estimates at present, it being an entirely new service, and when a new service is first introduced on a Supplementary Estimate, the proper course is for the House to obtain full information and to discuss the matter.
I desire to submit to the Prime Minister, with all respect, that in the circumstances the discussion of this very important matter of the setting up of the Reorganisation Commission, dealt with as a new service in this Supplementary Estimate, is one to which ample time should be given, and I would even venture to submit that it should be taken before 11 o'clock. [Interruption.] If he has already done so, I apologise. The other day I certainly understood from what the First Commissioner of Works said, that this would be taken before 11 o'clock, but I do ask the Prime Minister, even if he should press the first Vote—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—I hope he will take both Votes before 11 o'clock, but I make a special plea with regard to this new service that it should be taken before 11, and certainly not following upon some other business after 11 o'clock.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI have gone as far as I can and I hope no hon. Member will assume that what I have said is that both or either must be taken before Eleven o'clock. We must certainly get the first Vote to-night.
§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONI was the person concerned in the pledge given by the First Commissioner of Works, who I am sure will corroborate me. When the first Vote was on the Order Paper on the 23rd of February the First Commissioner came to me and asked how long I thought it was likely to take. I was not aware of the criticisms to be made, but I consulted my hon. Friends and they said about two hours. I conveyed that information to the First Commissioner of Works and he thereupon suggested that we should let him have the Committee stage on the understanding that there would be a reasonable discussion upon Report. On that 605 undertaking my friends and I agreed not to take the Vote on the Committee stage. There is a strong case for the second Vote, but I think the case with regard to the first Vote is even stronger.
§ Motion made, and Question put,
606§ "That the Proceedings on the Report of Supply [23rd and 26th February] be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]
§ The House divided: Ayes, 260; Noes, 156.
607| Division No. 183.] | AYES. | [4.18 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mander, Geoffrey le M. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Gray, Milner | Manning, E. L. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) | Mansfield, W. |
| Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | March, S. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.(Hillsbro') | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Marcus, M. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Marley, J. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Groves, Thomas E. | Marshall, F. |
| Angell, Sir Norman | Grundy, Thomas W. | Mathers, George |
| Arnott, John | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Matters, L. W. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Maxton, James |
| Ayles, Walter | Hall, J. H (Whitechapel) | Melville, Sir James |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Messer, Fred |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Middleton, G. |
| Barr, James | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Millar, J. D. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hardie, George D. | Mills, J. E. |
| Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) | Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Morley, Ralph |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Haycock, A. W. | Morris, Rhys Hopkins |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hayday, Arthur | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) |
| Benson, G. | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) |
| Bevan, Aneurln (Ebbw Vale) | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Blindell, James | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Mort, D. L. |
| Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Herriotts, J. | Muff, G. |
| Bowen, J. W. | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Muggeridge, H. T. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Murnin, Hugh |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Hoffman, P. C. | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Hore-Belisha, Leslie. | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) |
| Bromfield, William | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Brooke, W. | Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) |
| Brothers, M. | Isaacs, George | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Jenkins, Sir William | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) |
| Buchanan, G. | Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) | Palin, John Henry |
| Burgess, F. G. | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Paling, Wilfrid |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Palmer, E. T. |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Perry, S. F. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Jowitt, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Chater, Daniel | Jowitt Sir W. A. (Preston) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Church, Major A. G. | Kedward R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Phillips, Dr. Marion |
| Clarke, J. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Cluse, W. S. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Pole, Major D. G. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Potts, John S. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Kinley, J. | Price, M. P. |
| Compton, Joseph | Kirkwood, D. | Pybus, Percy John |
| Cove, William G. | Knight, Holford | Quibell, D. F. K. |
| Cowan, D. M. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Lang, Gordon | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Daggar, George | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Raynes, W. R. |
| Dallas, George | Lathan, G. | Richards, R. |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Ritson, J. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lawrence, Susan | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lawson, John James | Romeril, H. G. |
| Dukes, C. | Lawther W. (Barnard Castle) | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Duncan, Charles | Leach, W. | Rothschild, J. de |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Rowson, Guy |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lees, J. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Egan, W. H. | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Elmley, Viscount | Logan, David Gilbert | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) |
| England, Colonel A. | Longbottom, A. W. | Sanders, W. S. |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Longden, F. | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Foot, Isaac | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Freeman, Peter | Lowth, Thomas | Sexton, Sir James |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Lunn, William | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | McElwee, A. | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley) | McEntee, V. L. | Shield, George William |
| Gill. T. H. | McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Glassey, A. E. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Shillaker, J. F |
| Gossling, A. G. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Shinwell, E. |
| Gould, F. | McShane, John James | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Simmons, C. J. |
| Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) | Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) |
| Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | West, F. R. |
| Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) | Thurtle, Ernest | Westwood, Joseph |
| Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) | Tillett, Ben | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Smith, Rennle (Penistone) | Tinker, John Joseph | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Smith, Tom (Pontefract) | Toole, Joseph | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Smith, w. R. (Norwich) | Townend, A. E. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Snell, Harry | Vaughan, David | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) | Viant, S. P. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Sorensen, R. | Walker, J. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Stamford, Thomas W. | Wallace, H. W. | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Watkins, F. C. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | |
| Strauss, G. R. | Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Sullivan, J. | Wellock, Wilfed | Mr. Alien Parkinson and Mr. Hayes. |
| Sutton, J. E. | Welsh, James (Paisley) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Ferguson, Sir John | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Fielden, E. B. | Penny, Sir George |
| Albery, Irving James | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Ganzonl, Sir John | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. |
| Balniel, Lord | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Reynolds, Col. Sir James |
| Beaumont M. W. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Ross, Ronald D. |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Hammersley, S. S. | Savery, S. S. |
| Boyce, Leslie | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whitt[...]e |
| Bracken, B. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Simms, Major-General J. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Buchan, John | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Smithers, Waidron |
| Butler. R. A. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Somerset, Thomas |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hurd, Percy A. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Inskip, Sir Thomas | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Iveagh, Countess of | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A.(Birm., W.) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Stanley, Hon. O (Westmorland) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) |
| Christie, J. A. | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Long, Major Hon. Eric | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Cranborne, Viscount | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Ward. Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Macquisten, F. A. | Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Marjoribanks, Edward | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. | Windsor Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Mulrhead, A. J. | Withers, Sir John James |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | O'Connor, T. J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | O'Neill, Sir H. | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Sir Frederick Thomson. |