§ The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addison)I beg to move, in page 18, line 14, to leave out from the word "unincorporated" to the word "and" in line 17.
It will be seen that in the Clause as it stands the word "Society" is defined as including any body of persons whether incorporated or unincorporated, but the Clause adds that it shall not include:
any body of persons whose funds or any portion of whose funds are used for political purposes.These words were inserted in Committee and when the Amendment to include them was moved in Committee I think we were getting on rather well, and I was, perhaps, in an even better temper than usual. At all events, I accepted the Amendment, but I find, upon going into the matter, that my good nature in doing so would involve me in accounting difficulties in connection with this matter, and therefore I must now ask the House to support me in moving to omit these words. The reason is this: The grant that we make to the allotment society is not made to the society as such at all; it is made in respect of the requirements for seeds, fertilisers and so on, and I may say that Sir William Waterlow's Committee, which is handling this matter for us, is devoting a great deal of time and attention to the work, and I shall have, I think, the approval of everybody when I say a word of appreciation on the Third Reading.The whole point in regard to this Amendment is that these grants are really not made to the societies; they are made in respect of the members who receive so many thousand potatoes, so many packets of seeds, this, that and the other. The whole lot are added up, and the Waterlow Committee supplies the goods. That is what it comes to. If these words were in the Bill, and it 242 were a statutory obligation upon us to inquire of every particular allotment society as to whether it had or had not given a subscription to any other body which might or might not have given a subscription for political purposes, we should find ourselves involved in rather a large inquiry as to what the society did with their other money. All we are concerned with in this Clause is to see that the money we supply is used solely for these seeds, fertilisers, etc. No money can be paid except in respect to these requirements, but I suggest that it is putting upon the Minister an obligation very difficult to discharge if he has to inquire what every allotment society does with any of its other funds. It would make the Clause largely unworkable, or, at all events, involve cumbersome machinery not necessary for our purpose, and which is outside the object of the Bill, namely, the proper supply of seeds and fertilisers where required. I see the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) is on the look out, but I can assure him that none of these funds can find their way to any purpose except that provided for under the Clause, and I hope, in these circumstances, the House will support me in this Amendment.
§ Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMSOf all the backsliders I have come across, the Minister is absolutely the worst. Not only is he a backslider, but he is self-contradictory, because in Committee upstairs, when he accepted the Amendment, he said:
I am advised that the Clause would be quite workable with these words included."—[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 16th December, 1930; col. 587.]So that, quite obviously, his claim that this is not easy of administration goes by the board. It is quite easy.
§ Dr. ADDISONI was only able to get advice in Committee for a minute or two, and on further consideration it was found that unforeseen difficulties of administration would be likely to arise. I am sorry that it is necessary for me to go back on what I provisionally accepted in Committee.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSIt is no good backsliding, and then apologising. I would, however, take it from another point of view. He said that these seeds and fertilisers are really given to the allotment 243 holder himself. That is perfectly true, but it is the administration by the societies about which we are quarrelling. That is why we want them to be of a non-political character. When we were in Committee upstairs, I moved the original Amendment. The Minister had considerable time in which to discuss it and consider it. The Department laid it down on that occasion that these words were necessary in the Bill, and the Minister accepted the Amendment with a very slight alteration. Then one or two Members in different parts of the Committee began to And difficulties. The Minister still said he had to accept the words, and merely added that he would inquire into the matter between then and the Report stage.
Where you have a Clause about which there is a great deal of common agreement, and where practically every section of the Committee did much to help the Minister in getting the Clause through, it is rather rough when it comes to a question of this kind, in which we want to give the people administering these funds the widest power possible, that politics should not be kept out of consideration. I do not think that any hon. Member from any side would wish to do otherwise when he realises the very good work that these societies are doing. Many of them are giving their work without any financial help. Here you are asking them to extend their work. There are men of every party in these societies, and they are working with common good will. We wish to help the societies in every way, but the House would be very badly advised to accept the Amendment of the Minister, because he has got a few excellent words in this part of the Bill which will add enormously to the easy working powers of the Bill. In such circumstances, surely the Minister is not going to insist upon having these words withdrawn Will he look at it from a rather different point of view? He has
§ not made out any case of very great difficulty to-day. He is laying up for himself, at some other time, perhaps, a more difficult position, and if only from the point of view of helping the easy working and the clean administration of the Bill, I would ask him to reconsider his position, and not insist upon taking out these words, which undoubtedly met with a great deal of good will from all sections of the Committee upstairs.
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREHon. Members on this side will, I think, regret the action of the Minister in endeavouring to take out on the Report stage what he inserted in Committee. We shall certainly challenge this in the Division Lobby, because this is undoubtedly the least controversial section of the Bill. It is agreed that allotments in this country have done nothing but good, and so far, at any rate, the allotment societies have been most helpful and entirely free from political discrimination. We want to safeguard the future. Where Government money is being expended, there should not grow up any political distinction in administration, and this is the very best way to guard against that danger, for there is a danger in certain areas with predominant political opinion on one side or the other, that favouritism will be shown in a society, and if you are to give to all sorts of societies which are formed for purely social and philanthropic purposes the power to contribute to political parties, you are destroying a very valuable Amendment. Because we want to safeguard that position, we attach great importance to these words. We do not believe that the difficulty in administration would be great, and it is a safeguard to which we attach importance.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 159; Noes, 266.
247| Division No. 137.] | AYES. | [4.12 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Bird, Ernest Roy | Bullock, Captain Malcolm |
| Albery, Irving James | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Barton, Colonel H. W. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Bowater, Col. Sir T. V[...] | Butler, R. A. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Boyce, Leslle | Campbell, E. T. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Cattle Stewart, Earl of |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Brass, Captain sir William | Cautley, Sir Henry S. |
| Balniel, Lord | Briscoe, Richard George | Cayzer, Maj.Sir Harbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Brown, Col D. C.(N'th'ld., Hexham) | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. |
| Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) | Chapman, Sir S. |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Buchan, John | Christie. J. A. |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Hope, the Harry (For[...]) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynamouth) |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Colman, N. O. D. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Cranborne, Vissount | Hurd, Percy A. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord [...]. | Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. sir R. | Savery, S. S. |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Iveagh, Countess of | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Crookshank,cpt. H.(Lindsey, [...]) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Skelton, A. N. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Lamb, Sir J. O. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S Molton) | Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Smith-Carington, Nevllie W. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | Lewis, Oswald (colchester) | Smithers, Waldren |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Somerset, Thomas |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Somerville, A. A. (Windser) |
| Dixon Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Somerville, B. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Dugdals, Capt. T. L. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Edmendson, Major A. J. | Marjoribanks, Edward | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Millar, J. D. | Steel-Maitland, at. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. E. |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. B. (Ayr) | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Fielden, E. B. | Muirhead, A. J. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Fison, F. G. Clavering | Murnin, Hugh | Titchfield, Major the Marquees of |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Nicholson, Col-Rt. Hn. W.G.([...]) | Train, J. |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) | O'Neill, Sir H. | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Ward, Lieut.-Col Sir A. Lambert |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wardlaw-Milpe, J. S. |
| Grattan-Doyle. Sir N. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Beven, Barnstaple) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Gretton. Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Power, Sir John Cecil | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Purbrick, R. | Wells, Sydney, R. |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ramsbotham, H. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Ferquay) |
| Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglss H. | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambidge U.) |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Rentoul, Sir Gervals s. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Reynolds, Col. Sir James | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) | Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur [...]. | Ross, Major Ronald D. | |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Rothschild, J. de | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hills, Major Rt. HOR. John Waller | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Captain Sir George Bowyer and |
| Sir George Penny. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Cluse, W. S. | Grundy, Thomas W. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Clynes, Rt. Hon John R. | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. | Compton, Joseph | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Cove, William G. | Halt, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) |
| Arnott, John | Cripps, Sir Stafford | Hamilton. Mary Agnes (Blackburn) |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Dagger, George | Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Dallas, George | Hardle, George D. |
| Ayles, Walter | Dalton, Hugh | Hartahorn Rt. Hon. Vernce |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Hastings, Dr. Somerville |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Day, Harry | Haycock, A. W. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Haydey, Arthur |
| Barr, James | Dukes, C. | Hayes, John Henry |
| Batey, Joseph | Duncan, Charles | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) |
| Bellamy, Albert | Ede, James Chuter | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. ([...] Central) | Edmunds, J. E. | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) |
| Benson, G. | Egan, W. H. | Herriotts, J. |
| Blindell, James | Elmley, Viscount | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Went worth) |
| Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Foot, Isaac | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Forgan, Dr. Robert | Hoffman, P. C. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Freeman, Peter | Hopkin, Daniel |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Gardoes, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie |
| Bromfield, William | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | Horrabin, J. F. |
| Bromley, J. | Gibbins, Joseph | Hudson, James H. (Huddessfield) |
| Brooke, W. | Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) | Hunter, Dr. Joseph |
| Brothers. M. | Gill, T. H. | Isaacs, George |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Glassey, A. E. | Jeskins, Sir William |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Gossling, A. G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) |
| Buchanan, G. | Gould, F. | Johnston, Thomas |
| Burgess, F. G. | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) | Granville, E. | Jones, Rt. Hon, Leif (Camborne) |
| Cameron, A. G. | Gray, Milner | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Cape, Thomas | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Garter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Grimths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) |
| Chater, Daniel | Groves, Thomas E. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Kinley, J. | Mort, D. L. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Kirkwood, D. | Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Knight, Holford | Muff, G. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Lang, Gordon | Muggeridge, H. T. | Smith, Tom (Pontetract) |
| Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Murnin, Hugh | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Lathan, G. | Naylor, T. E. | Snell, Harry |
| Law, Albert (Bolton) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Law, A. (Rossendale) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Sorensen, R. |
| Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Lawson, John James | Oldfield, J. R. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Leach, W. | Palln, John Henry | Sullivan, J. |
| Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Paling, Wilfrid | Sutton, J. E. |
| Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Palmer, E. T. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Lees, J. | Perry, S. F. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Lloyd, C. Ellis | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Logan, David Gilbert | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Longbottom, A. W. | Pole, Major D. G. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Longden, F. | Potts, John S. | Toole, Joseph |
| Lunn, William | Price, M. P. | Tout, W. J. |
| Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Townend, A. E. |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R.(Seaham) | Rathbone, Eleanor | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Raynes, W. R. | Vaughan, David |
| McElwee, A | Richards, R. | Viant, S. P. |
| McEntee, V. L. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Walker, J. |
| McKinlay, A. | Rilcy, Ben (Dewsbury) | Wallace, H. W. |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Rlley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor |
| Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Ritson, J. | Watkins, F.C. |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Romeril, H. G. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermilne) |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondds) |
| McShane, John James | Rowson, Guy | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) | West, F. R. |
| Mansfield, W. | Sanders, W. S. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Marcus, M. | Sandham, E. | White, H. G. |
| Markham, S. F. | Sawyer, G. F. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Marley, J. | Scott, James | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Marshall, Fred | Scrymgeour, E. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Mathers, George | Scurr, John | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Matters, L. W. | Sexton, Sir James | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Maxton, James | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe) |
| Melville, Sir James | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Messer, Fred | Shepherd, Arthur Lewls | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Middleton, G. | Sherwood, G. H. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Mills. J. E. | Shield, George William | Wise, E. F. |
| Milner, Major J. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff) |
| Montague, Frederick | Shillaker, J. F. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Morley, Ralph | Shinwell, E. | |
| Morris, Rhys Hopkins | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Simmons, C. J. | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
§ Captain BOURNEI beg to move, in page 18, line 19, at the end, to insert the words:
Unemployed in relation to a person means whose name is entered in the unemployment register.One of the difficulties which we had in the Committee stage was to get some definition of "unemployed." Roughly speaking, when we discuss unemployment, the general feeling is that what we mean by unemployed persons are those unfortunate individuals whose names appear in the weekly list of the Ministry of Labour. Practically every person is on that register, irrespective of whether or not he is entitled to unemployment benefit. The reason for that is that before the operation of the Local Government Act, the boards of guardians had laid it down as a condition of granting relief that a 248 person should register as unemployed. The Ministry of Labour informed me in an answer to a question that the effect of the new Act in England was that there was an increase in the number of people on the register. There is reason to believe that all the unemployed in this country are registered at Employment Exchanges, although many of them are not entitled to benefit. Therefore, some definition of "unemployed" is wanted. The whole object of this part of the Bill which deals with allotments and smallholdings is to give jobs to the unemployed. It is an unemployment relief Measure rather than an agricultural Measure, and we feel that we cannot get a better definition than that an unemployed person is one who is registered at an Employment Exchange. I cannot see any hardship—
§ Captain BOURNEHe is covered under another Clause and under a new Clause which was inserted in Committee. In addition, there is nothing to stop the agricultural labourer registering himself if he is out of work. It is true that he cannot get benefit, but that does not prevent him registering himself. If anybody wants to claim relief as an unemployed man under this Bill it is not asking too much that he should register as an unemployed man.
§ Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISEI beg to Second the Amendment.
§ Dr. ADDISONWe discussed in Committee the fact that we have not put a definition of "unemployed" in the Bill, and I think that I succeeded in convincing the Committee that it was a wise proceeding, because in different Acts there are definitions of the word, which are by no means the same. In this particular case, the proposed definition is that he should be a person who is registered as unemployed at an Employment Exchange, and the remark of the hon. and gallant Member with regard to the agricultural labourer does not quite cover it. In Clause 7, it is true, the agricultural worker is in the same position as if he were unemployed with regard to the provision of a smallholding, but in this particular case the difficulty might arise that an agricultural worker might take over an allotment and have to go to a town two or three miles away to register. It will be easy to ascertain whether or not a man is unemployed, and I cannot see any advantage in inserting this definition. There would be inquiry into a man's bona fides by those in charge of the local administration, who will have means of finding out whether a person is unemployed. I do not think we need go beyond that.
§ Major ELLIOTThe Minister has not met the point, and I doubt if he has fully understood it. His suggestion is that a man merely has to state that he is unemployed, but our suggestion is that he only need go to an Exchange and sign a register.
§ Major ELLIOTThe hon. Member is continually interrupting, and his interruptions show that he has not grasped any of the points we are discussing. He brings forward the suggestion that this is an attempt to put the unemployed man to inconvenience. It is the Government's proposal which will do that. The Minister has used the phrase "bona fide," that is to say, genuinely seeking work. That is what he stands for. We stand for the perfectly simple test whether a man is registered. The Minister also stands for the local administration holding an inquiry into cases, and he says that it will be easy to ascertain whether a man is unemployed. Does he think that that will ease the case of the unemployed?
§ Major ELLIOTThe hon. Member, when challenged, is unable to substantiate any of the assertions that he makes. The Minister prides himself that he was able to convince the Committee. He was not able to do that. He voted the Opposition down, as a Government can do, but he did not convince the Committee. He got his own way by saying that he would assume on his own shoulders the whole of this administrative responsibility—a very rash thing to do. He will delay the operation of his own Measure by this refusal. He will place an inquisition upon those applying for assistance under the Bill, but our simple proposal would obviate that. The Minister puts his objection to this proposal on the ground that it interferes with his administrative discretion, and he contends that it does not place any difficulties in the way of the unemployed man. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and, after the administrative tangle to which these proposals will lead, the Minister will be obliged to come to this House asking for an amending Bill in order to get himself out of his own difficulties. In those circumstances, I am sure he will be sorry that he did not accept this Amendment. We have another proposal to bring for' ward later on which it would not be in order for me to discuss now, and which deals with this special point. Under the Bill as it stands, the Minister has to decide this question, and he has to decide who is and who is not an agricultural worker. The Minister has to decide this 251 question by his own administrative discretion, and that is a position from which we ask the House to rescue him.
§ Colonel ASHLEYI hope the tight hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision. We have proposed this Amendment after making considerable inquiries, and we ate assured that if a Man is unemployed, according to our Amendment, he is eligible under this Bill. According to this Measure, as I read it, if the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain Bourne) it net inserted, any man who was not genuinely unemployed might benefit. We are anxious to relieve the Minister of Agriculture of unnecessary inquiries.
§ Dr. ADDISONIt is a matter of convenience that this point should be arranged as is provided for in the Bill. The Amendment proposed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite would make a tremendous amount of unecessary work.
§ Colonel ASHLEYOn the contrary, I think this Amendment would avoid a great deal of unnecessary inquiry and expense. If a person puts down his name wrongly, then the Minister is free to make inquiries.
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI am in some difficulty in regard to this question. I think the Minister could very easily build on this Amendment a very considerable improvement in the Bill. The Amendment we are discussing is a simple and easy rule to be adopted in regard to people who are out of work. I am in agreement with my hon. and gallant Friend's proposal, although it does not
§ achieve all that I want. I think the Amendment would be rather hard on fishermen living in a small fishing village far away from an Employment, Exchange, because they could not be expected to go such a long distance in order to register themselves as Unemployed. That is not a reasonable thing to ask fishermen to do in those circumstances. All the fishermen living in a fishing village might be very desirous to have allotments on the terms provided for in this Bill. That is a single illustration but I could give many instances from Scotland where the people live four miles away from the place where they would have to register. If this Amendment could be amended in such a way as to enable people engaged in the fishing industry to be considered on separate lines, then it would be a very good proposal The Amendment is all right froth the point of view of those who live close to the Employment Exchanges, but it is not convenient for those who live in districts far away from the Exchanges. I recognise that there is something in what the Minister of Agriculture has Said in regard to this Amendment, but I think by suggesting the possibility of adjusting this matter in another place the Minister has done something Very foolish. Between the proposal of the Minister and the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend I am in rather a difficult position, but I shall vote for the least foolish of the two proposals.
§ Question put, "That those herds be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 170; Noes, 268.
255| Division No. 138.] | AYES. | [4.39 p.m. |
| Acland, Troyte, Lieut.- Colonel | Briscoe, Richard George | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, west) |
| Albery, Irving James | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Cunllffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillp |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leepold C. M. S. | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) | balkeith, Earl of |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Buchan, John | Dalrymple-White Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Davies, Maj. Geo. F:(Somerset,Yeovil) |
| Atkinson, C. | Butler, R. A. | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) |
| Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. | Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Dawson, Sir Philip |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Campbell, E. T. | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Castle Stewart, Earl of | Duck worth, G. A. V. |
| Balniel, Lord | Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Eden, Captain Anthony |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Cayzer, Maj Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmith.s.) | Edmondson, Major A. S. |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| B[...]chall, Major Sir John Dearman | Champman, Sir S. | Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Westont-s-M.) |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Christle, J. A. | Everard, W. Lindsay |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Clydesdale, Marquess of | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Bowater, Captain Robert Croft | Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Ferguson, Sir John |
| Bowater, Captain sir George E. W. | Colman, N. C. D. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Boyce, Leslie | Cranborne, Viscount | Fielden, E. B. |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Fison, F. G. Clavering |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Ford, Sir P J. | |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Smith-Carington, Neville) W. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W | Smithers, Waldron |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Somerset, Thomas |
| Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Ottey) | Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Muirhead, A. J. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Gritten, W. G. Howard | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) | Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gunston, Captain D. W. | O'Neill, Sir H. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Peake, Capt. Osbert | Thomas, Major L. B. (king's Norton) |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Peto, sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Tinne, J. A. |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Power, Sir John Cecil | Train, J. |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Purbrick, R. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Ramsbotham, H. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Rentoul, Sir Gervai[...] S. | Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Reynolds, Col. Sir James | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Iveagh, Countess of | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gten) | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renneil | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Ross, Major Ronald D. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Lamb, Sir J. O. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Salmon, Major I. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Long, Major Hon. Eric | Sandeman, Sir M. Stewart | Worthington-Evans; Rt. Hon. Sir L. |
| Lyttington, Viscount | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. | Wright, Brig;-Gen; W. O. (Tavist'k) |
| McConnell, Sir Joseph | Savery, S. S. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome | |
| Margesson, Captain M. D. | Skelton, A. N. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Marjoribanks, Edward | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallan) | Sir George Penny and Major the |
| Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kitc'dlne, C.) | Marquess of Titchfield. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Day, Harry | Herriotte, J. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) |
| Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. | Dukes, C. | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Duncan, Charles | Hoffman, P. C. |
| Arnott, John | Ede, James Chuter | Hopkin, Daniel |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Edmunds, J. E. | Hore-Bellsha, Leslie |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Horrabin, J. F. |
| Ayles, Walter | Egan, W. H. | Hudson, James M. (Huddersfield) |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Elmley, Viscount | Hunter, Dr. Joseph |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | England, Colonel A. | Hutchison, Maj-Gen. Sir R. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Foot, Isaac | Isaace, George |
| Barr, James | Forgan, Dr. Robert | Jankins, Sir William |
| Batey, Joseph | Freeman, peter | John, William (Rhondda, West) |
| Bellamy, Albert | Gardner, S. W. (West Ham. Upton) | Johnston, Thomas |
| Bennett, sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Gibbins, Joseph | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Benson, G. | Gibson, H. M. (Lanes Mossley) | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Blindell, James | Gill, F. H. | Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) |
| Bendfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Glassey, A. E. | Kedward, R. M. (kent, Ashford) |
| Bewerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Gossling, A. G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Gould, F. | Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M |
| Bromfield, William | Granville E. | Kintey, J. |
| Bromley, J. | Gray, Milner | Kirkwood, D. |
| Brooke, W. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Celne) | Knight, Holford |
| Brothers, M. | Grentell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Srimth, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Lang, Gordon |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George |
| Buchanan. G. | Groves, Thomas E. | Lathan, G. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Grundy, Thomas W. | Law, Albert (Bolton) |
| Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Law, A. (Rossefidale) |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) | Hall, G. H. (Merthyf Tydvll) | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrige) |
| Cameron, A. G. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Lawson, John James |
| Caper Thomas | Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Leach, W. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Hardie, George D. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) |
| Chater, Daniel | Hartshdrn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Lee, Jannle (Lanark, Northern) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Lees, J. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Haycock, A. W. | Lewis, T. (Southemton) |
| Compten, Joseph | Hayday, Arthur | Lloyd, C. Ellis |
| Cove, William G. | Hayes, John Henry | Logan, David Gilbert |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Longbottom, A. W. |
| Dagger, George | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Longden, F. |
| Dallas, George | Lunn, William | |
| Da'ton, Hugh | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Snell, Harry |
| MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Perry, S. F. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| McElwee, A. | Peters. Dr. Sidney John | Sorensen, R. |
| McEntee, V. L. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| McKinlay, A. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Stephen, Campbell |
| Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Potts, John S. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govaa) | Price, M. P. | Sullivan, J. |
| MacNeill-Weir, L. | Pybus, Percy John | Sutton, J. E. |
| Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James [...]. | Quibell, D. J. K. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| McShane, John James | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk. S.W.) |
| Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Raynes, W. R. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Richards, R. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Piaistow) |
| Mansfield, W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Marcus, M. | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Markham, S. F. | Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Toole, Joseph |
| Marley, J. | Ritson, J. | Tout, W. J. |
| Marshall, Fred | Someril, H. G. | Townend, A. E. |
| Mathers, George | Rosbotham, D. S. T. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Maxton, James | Rothschild, J. de | Vaughan, David |
| Melville, Sir James | Rowson, Guy | Viant, S. P. |
| Messer, Fred | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Walkden, A. G. |
| Middleton, G. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) | Walker, J. |
| Millar, J. D. | Sanders, W. S. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Mills, J. E. | Sandham, E. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Milner, Major J. | Sawyer, G. F. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Montague, Frederick | Scott, James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Scrymgeour, E. | Wollock, Wilfred |
| Morley, Ralph | Scurr, John | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Morris, Rhys Hopkins | Sexton, Sir James | West, F. R. |
| Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) | White, H. G. |
| Morrison, Robert c. (Tottenham, N.) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Lady wood) |
| Mort, D. L. | Sherwood, G. H. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) | Shield, George William | Williams David (Swansea, East) |
| Muff, G. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond | Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Muggeridge, H. T. | Shillaker, J. F. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Murnin, Hugh | Shinwell, E. | Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Naylor, T. E. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Simmons, C. J. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Noel Baker, P. J. | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) | Wise, E. F. |
| Oldfield, J. R. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley) | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Palin, John Henry | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) | |
| Palmer, E. T. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Smith, W. R. (Norwich) | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. |
§ Miss PICTON-TURBERVILLOn a point of Order. Unfortunately, by a mistake I voted in the "Ayes" Lobby, and to put it right I then went into the "Noes" Lobby. Would it be in order to cancel the "Aye" vote?
§ Mr. SPEAKERNo, the matter must be left as it is. The two votes the hon. Member has given will cancel one another.