§ Sir D. NEWTONClause 2 empowers the Minister to acquire land for use as demonstration farms. The Amendment, which I have the honour to move, lays down that this land required for demonstration farms shall only be acquired by agreement. In support of that Amendment, I would like to remind the House that there are scattered up and down the length and breadth of the country a great many demonstration farms, which are extremely well run. I believe I am right in saying that, in every case, the land for those demonstration farms has been acquired by agreement. If it is the aim and object of the corporation to establish these demonstration farms and if it has been found possible for existing demonstration farms, as operated by the county councils, to be acquired by agreement, it should be equally within the power of the corporation to acquire the land needed for these demonstration farms also by agreement. Moreover, a demonstration farm which is acquired by agreement is much more likely to prove a true and proper demonstration farm than land acquired by some form of compulsory power. We have no knowledge of the way in which this corporation will carry out its work. It may be that they will act with almost excessive zeal, and they may think the best way to have a demonstration farm, and certainly it would be the most effective way from some points of view, would be to pick out the best possible land in some locality, to pick out the "eyes" of a farm, to tear up some farm and buy the best area of land for their own purposes.
Agriculture is in very great difficulties at the present time. In fact, it is almost impossible to overestimate and overstate the difficulties which confront 2005 the cereal farmer in this country. It is now suggested that the land of these agriculturists, who are in such difficulties, might be acquired compulsorily for the purposes of a demonstration farm. That proposal cuts deep down into the right of security of tenure. It will give power for the eviction of any farmer in any part of the country and must produce a feeling of unrest and of dissatisfaction. There is no need for these farms to be on the best of this land. There is plenty of land available at the present time. There is derelict land, and there is other land which can be acquired easily in the open market from willing sellers. There is, therefore, no need for these powers. If the Minister will accept this Amendment, it will strengthen rather than weaken the aims and objects which he has at heart.
§ Captain BOURNEI beg to second the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton). If there was any part of Part I in which compulsory powers were not required, I should have thought that it was this Clause. The Minister has told us over and over again, in the course of these Debates, that a great deal of agricultural land has gone out of cultivation. If that is correct, as, presumably, it is, since he has the resources of his Department behind him, he would surely have no difficulty in negotiating the purchase of any of this land for the purpose of setting up a demonstration farm. His statements in Committee were not very dear, but I understood the object of this Clause was to run farms to pay and for that they desired ordinary land on which to run them. It would not meet the purpose of the Minister, in setting up demonstration farms, to acquire the very best land, because anyone knows the very best land can be made to pay. That, however, is not a demonstration of what will happen under ordinary conditions.
Mr. DEPUTY - SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico)I am not quite sure the hon. and gallant Member is speaking to the Amendment before the House. The Amendment I called on the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) to move is the Amendment to Clause 2, on page 4, line 16, to insert certain words.
§ Sir D. NEWTONOn a point of Order—
§ Sir D. HERBERTOn a point of Order. May I call your attention to the fact that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton), not having understood what Amendment you called, has actually proposed and moved another Amendment.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe hon. Member named no Amendment whatever. I listened very carefully as I was going to call the hon. Member to order and get him back on the line again, but he gave no indication whatever what Amendment he moved.
Mr. GUINNESSMay I point, out that we were notified early in the proceedings that, among the Amendments selected, by Mr. Speaker, was one standing in my name and that of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton), to insert after the word "purchase" the words "by agreement." It was on that understanding that I arranged with the hon. Member for Cambridge to move it in my place. On that understanding, he did so when you called his name. We were fully expecting that the Amendment would be called.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI certainly did not call upon the hon. Member to move that Amendment. I called upon the hon. Member to move the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton). I acted solely upon the instructions of Mr. Speaker.
§ Sir D. NEWTONMay I now be allowed to move my Amendment?
§ Mr. MARJORIBANKSThe hon. Member, to my recollection, commenced by referring to the words "by agreement."
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI have already said that I called upon the hon. Member to move his Amendment. In the course of his speech, he gave no indication that he was moving any other Amendment than the one I called. These points of Order are speeches in support of an Amendment I have not selected.
§ Captain BOURNEMy hon. Friend said Clause 4, page 4—[Interruption].
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI cannot admit that, but in any case, it is in the power of the Chair to select the particular Amendment to be moved. There is no further point of Order on this matter. My Ruling is quite clear, definite and final.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERIf the hon. Member rises on the same point of Order, that is settled. I cannot listen to any further points of Order on this Ruling.
§ Mr. ALBERYWill you, Sir, tell us which Amendment it is.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERCertainly; that Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge to insert words in page 4, line 16.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI beg to move, in page 4, line 16, at the end, to insert the words:
Provided that—no one regrets more than I do that there has been this misunderstanding. We should know exactly where we were if the Amendments could be numbered instead of being printed in the present way. We on this side press very strongly for legislation to co-operate with the county councils in regard to land settlement generally. We hold that county councils are in a much better position than the Minister of Agriculture to form a true, fair, and proper opinion as to the suitability or otherwise of the land in their areas for demonstration farms. They are better able to form a judgment of the value to the area of the proposed demonstration farms. County councils are owners of many demonstration farms, and it seems to me an additional reason why they should be consulted. They know what the requirements of their areas are. I do not think it is realised 2008 by the promoters of this Bill what extensive steps are taken by county councils in order to assist agriculturists in their areas. I will just enumerate some of the steps my own county council have taken. We have an organiser of agricultural education and assistants; an horticultural adviser and assistants; we have an instructor of poultry keeping; we have a recorder—[Interruption]—we have organised courses of lectures, evening classes, and skilled labourers' classes. We give agricultural scholarships, and have experiments and demonstrations both in horticulture and agriculture. When it comes to the question of milk, we have organised milk competitions and also clean milk contests. [Interruption.]
- (a) the Minister shall, before exercising the power conferred upon him by this section, consult the council of the county in which the land proposed to be purchased is situate; and
- (b) there shall not be any obligation upon any local authority, university, agricultural college, or other body to act as the agents of the Minister under this section without their consent, and such consent may be given for a limited period."
I think it very important to remind the House what is being done. It seems to be thought that nothing is being done, and I am venturing to tell the House very respectfully what is being done.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe whole argument on this Amendment is to show that county councils should be consulted before the Minister takes action.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI have tried to point out why they should be consulted. Unless they are consulted redundancy and great waste of public money may result. I would like to add that in the poultry section we have egg and chicken distribution and organised county egg laying trials. We import into this country eggs and poultry to the value of £20,000,000 every year. We have stock judging competitions, and we give grants to agricultural colleges. We also try to assist the bee-keeping association and have a cockerel-breeding scheme. On the library side, we have text books and courses, instruction and exhibits at county shows. [Interruption.] We are naturally somewhat proud of what we have done. I venture to submit the Amendment in the hope that it will be accepted by the Minister.
§ Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEI beg to second the Amendment. After the very close way in which the Mover has given an account of the work of his county council, it will not be necessary for me to explain the work of county councils. Other counties do equally well. The only people fit to judge the 2009 place and best land for these demonstration farms are the county councils. The Minister may have officials reporting to him or he may have a look round himself, but, anyhow, by a short visit himself or by sending officials to the county he cannot possibly have the knowledge which Members of the county council have. Those county councils also run various institutes and agricultural colleges. The second part of the Amendment is also of considerable importance because county councils do not want to be taxed by the Minister against their will. I hope he will make sure that no expense is put upon them.
§ Mr. ATTLEEIn any case, where it is contemplated that demonstration farms should be under the county council, obviously the right thing would be to consult them. But it is one thing to lay down definitely that you must consult and another thing to say that in the normal course consultation will take place. While it is the full intention to work with the county council in every possible way, I think it is quite unnecessary to impose that obligation. In the second place, the hon. Member seeks to rid the local authority of any obligation. There, I can entirely agree with him, except that it is unnecessary to put it in, because there is no obligation whatever imposed in this Bill. There is no power whatever on the part of the Minister to put an obligation on the local authorities, University Agricultural Colleges, or any other body to act as his agent, and it is thoroughly bad drafting to put in a declaration that something must not be done when there is no power to do it.
With regard to the last point made by the hon. Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte), there is no power in the Minister to make a county council act as his agent and to charge the costs to them. If they act as his agents it is quite obvious that he will have to bear the cost. There is no intention whatever to make the county councils bear a loss.
§ Sir A. LAMBERT WARDI should like to say a few words in support of the Amendment. It certainly does seem to me that, unless the Minister consults with the local authorities before establishing demonstration farms, there must be a very considerable risk of duplication, in- 2010 convenience, and loss of money. A considerable number of county education authorities have already agricultural colleges. The majority have so far not yet blossomed out into anything that could really be called demonstration farms. It is true they have some small plots of ground used for practical training, but anything in the nature of demonstration farms is still something for the future, and it seems to me that unless they work in co-operation we stand a very serious danger of having the agricultural college in one part of the country and the demonstration farm in another. The ideal thing would be to have the agricutural college and the demonstration farm in the immediate vicinity of one another, so that they can be more or less progressively worked and the students can obtain first of all necessary instruction and then practical experience. Unless there is co-operation, and co-operation of a very close kind, between the education authorities and the Minister who is going to institute demonstration farms, the ideal which we wish to aim at is not likely to be attained, and we may see the demonstration farm and the educational college so far apart that it will be almost impossible to have practical cooperation.
Marquess of HARTINGTONI hope the right hon. Gentleman will remember something that took place in Committee in connection with various Amendments in regard to which the Chairman exercised the difficult powers which had been given him. There was one in my name which I was not allowed to move, but I was permitted to explain briefly for the express purpose that the Minister should consider the matter and subsequently give an explanation to the House. The purpose for which that Amendment was put on the Paper was that the Minister should give the House some kind of direction as to what was proposed in these experimental farms. Most counties are already doing a very great deal in the way of educational work in regard to agriculture. It is really important that nothing in the nature of rivalry between the Board of Agriculture experimental farms and the county council experimental farms should be set up. There is, however, a serious risk that experimental farms will be set up in rivalry to those now successfully run by the county councils and that we shall see a system of 2011 rivalry established between the Ministry officials on the one hand and county officials on the other, one set of farms run with the taxpayers' money and another with the ratepayers' money, not so much to teach farmers, as to retain the pride and status of respective departments.
That may sound a fantastic state of affairs, but anyone who has had real experience of work in Government Departments cannot fail to see that it is a real risk. I saw something of it in the War Office during the War.
§ Mr. McKINLAYOn a point of Order. What point is the hon. Gentleman discussing? I cannot see anything in the Amendment dealing with experimental farms.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThe Amendment before the House is whether or not the Minister, before exercising certain powers defined in the Clause should consult the county council of that area.
Marquess of HARTINGTONFor the further information of the hon. Member the Clause provides that
the Minister shall have power to purchase and hold land for the purpose of utilising the land as demonstration farms under the management and control, as agents for the Minister, of local authorities, universities, agricultural colleges, or other bodies, or of any persons, who, in the opinion of the Minister, are qualified to manage and control such farms and to give instruction in agricultural subjects.That is extremely had grammar, but I think its meaning ought to be clear to hon. Gentleman opposite. The Clause empowers the Minister to acquire land for the purpose of demonstration and experimental farms, and the Amendment which we seek to carry provides that the Minister shall not exercise these powers, unless and until he has consulted with the council of the county on which the land is situated. I hope the hon. Member understands. I wish to try and emphasise the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Sir D. Newton) that such words as these should be inserted. One does not wish to see rivalry between the excellent work done by the county councils and the work of the Department of Agriculture.I hope that there will be some reply from one of the Ministers as this point was not allowed to be discussed upstairs. 2012 It is important, because a very large sum of money is involved, and the House is not in the possession of any information as to what is intended by the Minister. We do not know how many experimental farms he intends to set up or whether he proposes to supersede the farms of the county councils. I think we should have a further explanation from the Government as to what is intended.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONThe Noble Lord has put a perfectly reasonable case, and I hope to answer his points briefly. He said there had been no case made out, and there has been no information as to what the Government intend to do. I suppose the Noble Lord read the report of the Scottish Conference on Agricultural Policy held under the direction of the late Secretary of State for Scotland on which were represented six landowners, six tenant farmers, two smallholders, six farm labourers, and the representative of the Scottish Agricultural Cooperation. This committee, known as the "Elder Committee," unanimously recommends, on page 14, that:
theories useful as they may be are less convincing to the practical farmer than concrete demonstrations in the field, we, therefore, strongly urge the establishment of a large number of demonstration areas.The results of experimental research in agriculture do not get out quickly enough to the farmer, and the research work of Professor Findlay takes a long time to get to the people who are interested in it. There are other experiments being conducted in three or four agricultural colleges—experiments in the production of a new oat. Why should there not he demonstration areas, not necessarily farms, but demonstration areas, not one only in a county, but several where the Minister of Agriculture, in consultation with county councils and the agricultural interests, thinks the most suitable places. Why should there not be demonstration areas of 5, 10 acres or less. The Amendment is that the Government ought not to be permitted to do that, until they have had a consultation with the county council, and the county council may refuse to act as agent for the Government. The Government believe that there is a field for a large number of demonstration areas, that the Department of Agriculture should have the power quickly and speedily to translate the latest results in 2013 research to the farming community, that the Government ought not to be hampered by local county prejudice, that the Government ought to act swiftly in these matters, that the Government ought not to be bound simply by geographical county areas in these matters, and that the Government should place these demonstration areas in the centre of farming communities, even if the farmers should come from various counties in the neighbourhood to see the results of research—all that is necessary. The Government intend to act through, and with the assistance of, the county councils, the county agricultural committees, local authorities of every kind, and the agricultural colleges. Any Government in its senses would be delighted to make use of any local knowledge, local influence, local organisation, but not to have Government action, limited and perhaps stultified, in most vital and important matters of agricultural research. Surely, there is common agreement that instructed agricultural opinion in every part of the country—
§ Viscount WOLMERCondemns this Bill.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONIt does not. That is a most foolish observation. Surely, there is common agreement on this point—and I bar the Noble Lord—but, outside of the Noble Lord, surely, there is common agreement that whatever results can be secured from agricultural research should be placed speedily, quickly, and efficiently before the agriculturists in every part of the country. If the noble Lord objects to that, let him object. The Government say that there is no use in spending money on agricultural research if you are going to make it difficult of access to the farming community. Fortified by the unanimous report of the Agricultural Conference, the Government ask the House to agree that nothing whatever shall be placed as a barrier between the latest results of agricultural research and the farming community.
§ Sir J. LAMBI consider that the explanation just given by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland is most unsatisfactory, because he has made plain that this is being done simply because the education authorities in Scotland have neglected to do what the English educa- 2014 tion authorities have done and done very thoroughly. In that case, why should the Scottish authorities ride off with less expenditure and get what we have had to provide with local rates and local expenditure? Why should the Scottish authorities get theirs under this Bill'? The hon. Gentleman has also said that the results of these experiments should be quickly conveyed to the farmers. There is no system which he can recommend by which it can be more quickly put before the farmers than is done by the local authorities in England. On all these demonstration farms—there are no less than 33 already existing in this country, 12 connected with the universities and no less than 21 in the various counties, and there is close co-operation between these, and the counties have been divided off into provinces, each having their demonstration farm connected with farm institutes—each one has its annual report which is issued to the farmers. But they go further. My experience is that a report is not sufficient, because reports may be made but they are not necessarily read by the farmers. On most of the demonstration farms, in addition to the report, there are visits of farmers, who have an explanation given to them, at the time, of the work that is being done. That, to my mind, is quite satisfactory, and the numbers already existing, particularly in the counties in England—I do not speak for Scotland—leads me to believe that there is very grave danger of duplication such as has been expressed by other hon. Members.
It is absolutely necessary before demonstration farms are set up that the Ministry should consult with the local authorities to see if the work is not being done well at the present time. It is not only duplication of the farms that we fear, but also duplication of officials, because these demonstration farms are of no value unless their work is put before the people in such a way that they can understand it, and that means a very large technical staff. These services are already in possession of the local authorities. Why duplicate them? There is a very grave danger of duplication which at the present time we cannot possibly afford. We must get all we can in the way of experiment and scientific research, but we cannot afford to go in for duplication in any way.
§ Captain GUNSTONNo one was more surprised than I was to hear the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland when he was rather pouring cold water on local opinion. I can remember his speeches on the Local Government Act, when he stood up for the local authorities and local opinion against the larger authorities. I think he fails to realise that those of us in England who are much more forward and comprehensive in agricultural matters apparently than in Scotland do take a great pride in the work which our counties are doing in regard to agriculture and agricultural education. When he talks about the necessity for these demonstration farms, I think he forgets that this Amendment is not questioning that at all, but is merely saying that the county council shall be consulted. It does not say that if a county council does not agree with the Government the Government cannot go on.
3 a.m.
The hon. Member who first spoke for the Government in reply to this Amendment said that in most cases the Government would consult with the county council, but I do not think he realises that we look upon this Bill in a very apprehensive way. If the Government are able to come down to a county like Gloucester, which has done great work in agriculture, and acquire land and set up a demonstration farm without even consulting local authorities, on the boards of which many men have given up their lives to educate the countryside in the latest developments of agriculture, you are bound to create bad feeling and not advance the cause which you want to advance. Wherever your farm is and whatever branches of agriculture it takes in, it is practically impossible—at any rate in the West of England—to make an experiment in agriculture which is not already being done to some extent by the county council. Therefore, it is right if you are going to set up these experimental farms, that you should say, "Let us go and see the county councils and examine what work they have done. We want to experiment with poultry. Let us see the people who have been carrying out a big experiment with poultry and who have been teaching its lessons in the county and know what teaching is needed." 2016 Surely that is not asking too much. We are not saying that you shall not set up these farms unless the county council agrees. We are only saying that you shall consult with the county council. The Minister would save a lot of time and would improve his Bill considerably if he would accept this modest Amendment.
§ Mr. O'CONNORI do not appreciate that the argument of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland was at all germane to the Amendment. The Amendment, does not propose any restrictive powers on the Government nor has it any delaying effect at all. All the Amendment says is that the Minister, before exercising the powers he takes under this Clause, shall consult with the local authority in the area in which he is exercising these powers. How can any Amendment be more reasonable 2 The very refusal of the right hon. Gentleman arouses in some of our minds the suspicion that what the Government intend to do is to take these powers and to exercise them without the advice of and without consulting the local authorities. Consider the case of a county in which there are no universities or agricultural colleges. Does the Minister seriously suggest it is in any way an impediment to the Government to say that, before taking up land in that county for the purpose of conducting an experimental farm, they must consult the local authority. If this Amendment arouses the opposition of the Government, then they are taking the worst possible step towards making these farms a success. You are bound to look for the co-operation of the local authority. If you flout them and do not ask their advice at all, you are taking the worst possible step to wards making these farms a success.
This Amendment is a modest one. It interferes in no way with the operation of the Clause. Only a few hours ago we were hearing complaints that the methods of the Opposition had been responsible for the delay with which these Clauses had been completed. The delay in this case is due to the Government and to their obvious obstinacy in refusing to accept a perfectly simple and plain Amendment, which does not impede it in any way, and which is reasonable alike from the point of view of the Government and the County Council. I would 2017 again urge upon the Minister that, even at this late stage and after permitting the time of the House to he wasted, he should accept this Amendment, which does not do any harm to the Bill and which is only following the course, which, according to their own spokesmen, the Government intend to adopt.
§ Captain BRISCOEI would like to correct two false impressions which the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland tried to convey to this House. He, first of all, tried to convey the impression that we on this side of the House stated that no case had been made out for demonstration farms at all. He shakes his head, but those are his actual words. That is neither our attitude of mind nor is it what has been said from these benches. I am particularly anxious to see the development of demonstration farms throughout the country and to see the information so obtained spread round among the farmers of this country. That is the first false impression which I wish to correct. The second false impression which the Under-Secretary gave was that, if the Ministry were obliged to consult the county councils, the county councils would necessarily restrict and try to obstruct the operations of the Ministry. Those of us who have had any dealings with county councils know that would not be the case at all. My own county council would do everything they could to assist the Ministry to carry out the experiments which are required.
The Minister is really asking us to take too much on trust. He said that this Amendment was not necessary. "Of course," he said, "we will consult the county councils whenever it is convenient and necessary to do so." He keeps on saying that throughout the whole of the Bill. When there are things in the Bill which we do not like, he says he will not use those powers; when we want things put in the Bill, he says that there is no need to put them in, as he will do what we propose. He said that about the Corporation's powers to let land. When we tried to limit the amount of expenditure, he said "Trust me. I am not going to spend too much." Again, on the question of keeping accounts, he said "Trust me. I will see accounts are kept all
§ right." When we come to compulsory powers, he says "Trust me. I will not use them objectionably." Now we are asking him to consult with the county councils, he says, "Trust me. I will do it all right when the time comes." This trust business, this kind of Fido business is really getting almost unbearable, especially after the sort of thing we have had earlier in the Debate. He cannot expect us to go on trusting him for ever. If we may compare him to the pet dog that is always put on trust, we may call him the Bonzo of the Bonanza Farm.
§ Viscount LYMINGTONI rise to support the Amendment for the very reason that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has opposed it. It is to lubricate the working of a bad Bill that we want to put these words in. He mentioned the question of research and the value of popularising its results. How can you possibly get results popularised in any county where you have ridden over the heads of your local authority? If the Minister is going to consult the county councils, let him put it in the Bill. If he is not going to do so, and farming on a large scale comes into a district, you are going to meet immediately with suspicion. You can halve that suspicion by consulting the local authority which is there already. The local agricultural committee is composed in my county of farmers and those who know about the land. The county land officer is very probably over every acre in the county in the course of a year. If you are not going to have consultation, you are going to have distrust. However good the large-scale farms may be, in the end they may be discounted by the fact that they will be liable to have overridden local opinion if there is no consultation. As my hon. Friend has just suggested, there will undoubtedly arise some Pharaoh who will forget the present Minister's promises And be in the position of having results, however good, discounted.
§ Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question he now put."
The Houses divided: Ayes, 169; Noes 98.
2021| Division No. 116.] | AYES. | [3.13 a.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. | Alpass, J. H. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayday, Arthur | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Arnott, John | Hayes, John Henry | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Oliver, George Harold (likeston) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Herriotts, J. | Palin, John Henry |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Perry, S. F. |
| Barr, James | Hoffman, P. C. | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Batey, Joseph | Hollins, A. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hopkin, Daniel | Potts, John S. |
| Benson, G. | Horrabin, J. F. | Pybus, Percy John |
| Bowen, J. W. | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Jenkins, Sir William | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Raynes, W. R. |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Johnston, Thomas | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Kelly, W. T. | Romeril, H. G. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Caine, Derwent Hall- | Kinley, J. | Rowson, Guy |
| Cameron, A. G. | Lang, Gordon | Sanders, W. S. |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Charleson, H. C. | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Chater, Daniel | Lawrence, Susan | Shield, Georqe William |
| Clarke, J. S. | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lawson, John James | Shinwell, E. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Simmons, C. J. |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Leach, W. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Daggar, George | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Dallas, George | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Dukes, C. | Logan, David Gilbert | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Duncan, Charles | Longbottom, A. W. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Ede, James Chuter | Longden, F. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Strauss, G. R. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lunn, William | Sullivan, J. |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Sutton, J. E. |
| Elmley, Viscount | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Foot, Isaac | McElwee, A. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Freeman, Peter | McEntee, V. L. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gardner, B. W. (Wett Ham. Upton) | McKinlay, A. | Tout, W. J. |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) | MacLaren, Andrew | Wallace, H. W. |
| Gill, T. H. | McShane, John James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Glassey, A. E. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Mansfield, W. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gould, F. | Marcus, M. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Markham, S. F. | White, H. G. |
| Gray, Milner | Marley, J. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Matters, L. W. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Melville, Sir James | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Messer, Fred | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Middleton, G. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Mills, J. E. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Milner, Major J. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Montague, Frederick | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Harbord, A. | Morley, Ralph | Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Paling. |
| Hardie, George D. | Mort, D. L. | |
| Haycock, A. W. | Muff, G. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Cranborne, Viscount | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) |
| Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) | Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. |
| Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover) | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Liewellin, Major J. J. |
| Balniel, Lord | Dalkeith, Earl of | Lockwood, Captain J. H. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Lymington, Viscount |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | McConnell, Sir Joseph |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) |
| Boyce, Leslie | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Margesson, Captain H. D. |
| Bracken, B. | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Marjoribanks, Edward |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Ferguson, Sir John | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Muirhead, A. J. |
| Butler, R. A. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Ganzoni, Sir John | O'Connor, T. J. |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.) | Green W. P. Crawford | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Christle, J. A. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ross, Major Ronald D. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Hartington, Marquess of | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Savery, S. S. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Smithers, Waldron | Todd, Capt. A. J. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Womersley, W. J. |
| Spender-Clay, Colonel H. | Turton, Robert Hugh | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) | Sir George Penny and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert | |
| Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. | Wells, Sydney R. |
§ Question put accordingly "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
2022§ The House divided: Ayes, 100; Noes, 170.
2023| Division No. 117.] | AYES. | [3.22 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Penny, Sir George |
| Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Ferguson, Sir John | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Balniel. Lord | Flson, F. G. Clavering | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Ross, Major Ronald D. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Ganzoni, Sir John | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Boyce, Leslle | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Bracken, B. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Savery, S. S. |
| Braithwalte, Major A. N. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Butler, R. A. | Hartington, Marquess of | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.) | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.) | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Christie, J. A. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Liewellin, Major J. J. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lymington, Viscount | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Wolmer. Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Marjoribanks, Edward | Womersley, W. J. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Captain Euan Wallace and SirVictor Warrender. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Muirhead, A. J. | |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) | O'Connor, T. J. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Daggar, George | Haycock, A. W. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Dallas, George | Hayday, Arthur |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Dalton, Hugh | Hayes, John Henry |
| Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) |
| Alexander. Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Dukes, C. | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Duncan, Charles | Herriotts, J. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Ede, James Chuter | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) |
| Arnott, John | Edmunds, J. E. | Hoflman, P. C. |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Hollins, A. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Hopkin, Daniel |
| Baidwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Elmley, viscount | Horrabin, J. F. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Foot, Isaac | Hudson, James H. (Huddarsfield) |
| Barr, James | Freeman, Peter | Jenkins, Sir William |
| Batey, Joseph | Gardner, B. W. (Wast Ham, Upton) | John, William (Rhondda, West) |
| Bennett, William (Batteries, South) | Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Moisley) | Johnston, Thomas |
| Berson, G. | Gill, T. H. | Kelly, W. T. |
| Bowen, J. W. | Glassey, A. E. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Gossling, A. G. | Kinlay, J. |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) | Gould, F. | Lang, Gordon |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamliton) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Gray, Milner | Law, A. (Rossendale) |
| Buraess, F. G. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Lawrence, Susan |
| Caine, Darwent Hall. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) |
| Cameron, A. G. | Grundy, Thomas W. | Lawson, John James |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) |
| Charleson, H. C. | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Leach, W. |
| Chater, Daniel | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) |
| Clarke, J. S. | Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Lloyd, C. Ellis |
| Compton, Joseph | Harbord, A. | Logan, David Gilbert |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Hardie, George D. | Longbottom, A. W. |
| Longden, F. | Oldfield, J. R. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Oliver, George Harold (likeston) | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Lunn, William | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Palin, John Henry | Strauss, G. R. |
| MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Perry, S. F. | Sullivan, J. |
| McEiwee, A. | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| McEntee, V. L. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| McKinlay, A. | Potts, John S. | Tinker. John Joseph |
| MacLaren, Andrew | Pybus, Percy John | Tout, W. J. |
| McShane, John James | Quibell, D. F. K. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Mansfield, W. | Raynes, W. R. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. O. (Rhondda) |
| Marcus, M. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Markham, S. F. | Romeril, H. G. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Marley, J. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. | White, H. G. |
| Matters, L. W. | Rowson, Guy | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Melville, Sir James | Sanders, W. S. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Messer, Fred | Sawyer, G. F. | Williams Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Middleton, G. | Sherwood, G. H. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Mills, J. E. | Shield, George William | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Milner, Major J. | Shillaker, J. F. | Wilson, Ft. J. (Jarrow) |
| Montague, Frederick | Shinwell, E. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Simmons, C. J. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Morley, Ralph | Sitch, Charles H. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mort, D. L. | Smith, Ben (Bermondiey, Rotherhitha) | Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Piling. |
| Muff, G. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) | |
| Noel Baker, P. J. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
§ Dr. ADDISONI beg to move, in page 4, line 16, at the end, to insert the words:
(2) The Minister shall make to Parliament not later than the first day of May an annual report as to the operations conducted under this section, including a summary of the annual accounts of each demonstration farm carried on thereunder.I do this in consequence of a promise in Committee.Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ Sir A. CHAMBERLAINI beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I need hardly say I do not do it for the purpose of preventing the Amendment being added to the Bill. I have to make my motion when the Question is already before the House, and I therefore do it on this Amendment as it seems to me the Amendment is the last one on this Clause and when we have finished this Clause it will be a reasonable and proper time to adjourn. We have already had a long sitting. There is a special reason for not entering upon the next Clause at this hour of the morning. The House has been reminded that the procedure in regard to this Bill has from the first been exceptional. Members have not been allowed the same freedom of examination and discussion in Committee on this Bill as in almost every other case—I think with only a single exception. It so happens that the next Clause is one which, owing to the procedure, escaped discussion to a very large extent—I am 2024 speaking on information supplied to me as I had not the good fortune to be a Member of the Committee. I am informed that a very large part of the Clause was passed over, and it is more necessary therefore that the discussion on Report should be taken within the normal hours of the sitting of the House, and at a time when those outside the House who are interested may know what is being done and why it has been done. The only reason which the right hon. Gentleman offered for resisting a similar Motion, which I made some time ago, was that the omnibuses had ceased to run, and I venture to make a protest against the procedure of the House of Commons being governed by regulations made by the omnibus proprietors in London. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept my proposal so that we may not discuss the next Clause at this time of the morning.
§ Dr. ADDISONI am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman was not upon the Committee upstairs: if he had been he would have understood how adequately this Clause was discussed. As a matter of fact, we are bound to take cognisance of the outside world, and it is a fact that there is a considerable number of members who are unable to get home and who can be usefully employed for the next two or three hours. With regard to the first point raised by the right hon. Gentleman, over 90 pages of the OFFICIAL REPORT are devoted to the discussion on Clause 3. It was very completely discussed, and it is true to say that 2025 every important point was discussed. The Chairman selected the Amendments with much skill, and nothing of any consequence was omitted. The proof of that is that the Amendments on the Order Paper are largely on the same lines as those moved in Committee. I may say also that the reason we got the Clause at that particular time was that the opposition of the hon. Members opposite had become threadbare.
§ Captain CR00KSHANKThe remarks of the right hon. Gentleman resisting the Motion of my right hon. Friend boil themselves down to two propositions. The first is that the Amendments now on the Order Paper are very much the same as the Amendments before the Committee. Of course, if you have a bad Bill it is likely that the Opposition will direct attention to its bad points as often as possible. Then, the right hon. Gentleman said that we in this House have to take cognisance of the outside world. It is just because he is not doing that that we have moved this Amendment. The cognisance he is talking about, apparently, is the time table of omnibuses, while we are directing our attention to the objectionable features of this Bill. I think it is time that someone should emphatically protest against this preposterous assumption that the whole of the business of this House is to be carried on according to time tables of railways and omnibuses. The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland just asserted that a lot of people will have to walk a long way. There is no evidence of that fact. It is just an assertion. One sees a great number of hon. Members opposite going home by other means. I think it is monstrous that the Government should, time after time, produce this assertion for which there is no evidence. As a matter of fact, the Minister said earlier on that he had made inquiries with regard to this Bill in various quarters and had been told to get on with it. The quarters must have been the Liberal benches, because it is their Bill and not his, and I see that they have left a small gallant band to carry on with the work. [Interruption.]
We are vitally interested in following in some detail this Bill. After all, if the Government gets through the House a Motion that the Chairman of a Committee should have special powers to cur- 2026 tail discussion upstairs, it is only natural that more time will be required on the Report stage, and it is obvious that the Government have seen that, because in their other important Measure which has gone to a Committee they are not proposing to ask for these powers for the Chairman in Committee. Unfortunately in this Bill they did not adopt that practice, and it is not unnatural that those of us who sit for agricultural constituencies want to see this matter very carefully discussed now on the Report stage and to bring out the points which the Minister has glided over and, to use his own words, take cognisance of the outside world and the criticism of the outside world. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman cannot get up in this House, or indeed anywhere else, and assert with any kind of confidence at all that there is any section of the agricultural community that wants this Bill.
§ Captain CROOKSHANKThe hon. Member has been so short a time in this House that he still does not learn the Rules of Order. He should know perfectly well that the time to discuss that is not on a Motion for the Adjournment, but I will ask him and hon. Members opposite in return to substantiate the claim made from the benches opposite, and apparently supported below the gangway, that it is impossible for Members on the Government benches to get home at this hour of the morning, and that they have to wait for the omnibuses and trams. [Interruption.] I was saying that it is up to those who produce this argument, time and time again, to prove that there is any substance in it. We have every reason to suppose that there is time for them to get home at any hour and that they have a wealth of talent on their own benches that, could devote its attention to organising transport at any time of the day or night. Those hon. Members who sit for co-operative societies could no doubt find it possible to secure transport in those various organisations, and I have no doubt that the Minister of Transport himself could give a. helping hand, and, unless rumour is inaccurate, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. Mardy Jones), at any rate, knows all about transportation.
§ Sir A. LAMBERT WARDI think it is nothing short of a disaster that a Bill of this magnitude should be dobated at this time of the morning and with so many members on the other side of the House, if their interruptions are any criterion, not fit to take any part in the discussion. The only argument that has been advanced is that many Labour Members have nothing else to do until the early trains start running. In view of the fact that this is the only Bill that the Government are likely to pass into law this Session, there is plenty of time for it to be debated at an hour when we are able to take a part that will ensure
§ its passing from this House in a very much different condition from that in which it is at the present time. It will go forth to the electors that the only reason why the Bill is being debated at the present time is in order that time shall be killed until the early trains start running.
§ Dr. ADDISON rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 94.
2029| Division No. 118.] | AYES. | [3.49 a.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Mort, D. L. |
| Adarnson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Muff, G. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M. | Harbord, A. | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Hardie, George D. | Oliver, George Harold (liketton) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Haycock, A. W. | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Hayes, John Henry | Palin, John Henry |
| Arnott, John | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Paling, Willrid |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Peiry, S. F. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Herriotts, J. | Peters. Dr. Sidney John |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Hoffman, P. C. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Hollins, A. | Potts. John S. |
| Barr, James | Hopkin, Daniel | Pybus, Percy John |
| Batey, Joseph | Horrabin, J. F. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Benson, G. | Jenkins, Sir William | Raynes, W. R. |
| Betterton, sir Henry B. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Bowen, J. W. | Johnston, Thomas | Romeril, H. G. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Kelly, W. T. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts Mansfield) | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rowson, Guy |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Kinley, J. | Sanders, W. S. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Lang, Gordon | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Calne, Oerwcnt Hall. | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Shield, George William |
| Cameron, A. G. | Lawrence, Susan | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Shinwell, E. |
| Charleson, H. C. | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Simmons, C. J. |
| Chater, Daniel | Leach, W. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Clarke, J. S. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rothsrhithe) |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Compton, Joseph | Licyd, C. Ellis | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Logan, David Gilbert | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Daggar, George | Longbottom, A. W. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Dallas, George | Longden, F. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lovat-Fraser, I. A. | Strauss, G. R. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lunn, William | Sullivan, J. |
| Dukes, C. | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Duncan, Charles | MacDonald, Malcoim (Bassetlaw) | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Ede, James Chuter | McElwee, A. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Edmunds, J. E. | McEntee, V. L. | Tout, W. J. |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | McKinlay, A. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Elmley, Viscount | MacLaren, Andrew | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Foot, Isaac | McShane, John James | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Freeman, Peter | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Mansfield, W. | Weetwood, Joseph |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley) | Marcus, M. | White, H. G. |
| Gill, T. H. | Markham, S. F. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Glassey, A. E. | Marley, J. | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Mathers, George | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Gould, F. | Matters, L. W. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Messer, Fred | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Gray, Milner | Middleton, G. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mills, J. E. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Milner, Major J. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Montague, Frederick | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morley, Ralph | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Alien, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Penny, Sir George |
| Allan, W. E. O. (Belfast, W.) | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent,Dover) | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnttaple) |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanct) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Ferguson, sir John | Roberta, Sir Samuel (Ecciesall) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Ross, Major Ronald D. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonet E. A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Ganzoni, Sir John | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Boyce, Leslie | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Bracken, B. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Savery, S. S. |
| Braithwaite. Major A. N. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hartington, Marquess of | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Butler, R. A. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cattle Stewart, Earl of | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Christie, J. A. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Clydesdale, Marquess of | Liewellin, Major J. J. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Colville. Major D. J. | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lymington, Viscount | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel Georgt |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Macdonald, Capt. P. D (I. of W.) | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Marjoribanks, Edward | Womersley, W. J. |
| Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Undsdy,Galnibro) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | TFXLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Captain Margesson and Sir Victor Warrender. |
| Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Muirhead, A. J. | |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | O'Connor, T. J. |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
| Division No. 119.] | AYES. | [4.0 a.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbirt | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Penny, Sir Georae |
| Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hattings) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Ballour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Ferguson, Sir John | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Robs, Major Ronald D. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Ganzoni, Sir John | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-colonel E. A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Glyn. Major R. G. C. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Boyce, Leslie | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bracken, B. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Sandeman, sir N. Stewart |
| Braithwalte, Major A. N. | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hartington, Marquess of | Smithera, Waldron |
| Butler, R. A. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.) | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Cazalet. Captain Victor A. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W.) | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Christie, J. A. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Clydesdale, Marquesa of | Liewallin, Major J. J | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lymington, Viscount | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | McConnetl, Sir Joseph | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Crichton-Stuart. Lord C. | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Marjoribanks, Edward | Womersley, W. J. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Captain Sir George Bowyer and |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Muirhead, A. J. | Captain Euan Wallace. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | O'Connor, T. J. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) | Arnott, John | Bennett, William (Battenea, South) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Aske, Sir Robert | Benson, G. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Attlee, Clement Richard | Bowen, J. W. |
| Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M. | Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Broad, Francis Alfred |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Barnes, Alfred John | Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Barr, James | Brown, Ernest (Leith) |
| Ammon, Charles George | Batey, Joseph | Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) |
§ The House divided: Ayes, 94; 168.
2031| Burgess, F. G. | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Paling, Wilfrid |
| Caine, Derwent Hall- | Jenkins, Sir William | Perry, S. F. |
| Cameron, A. G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Johnston, Thomas | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Charleson, H. C. | Kelly, W. T. | Potts, John S. |
| Chater, Daniel | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Pybus, Percy John |
| Clarke, J. S. | Kinley, J. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour. | Lang, Gordon | Ramsay, T. B. Wilton |
| Compton, Joseph | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Raynes, W. R. |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Daggar, George | Lawrence, Susan | Romeril, H. G. |
| Dallas, George | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Rowson, Guy |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Leach, W. | Sanders, W. S. |
| Dukes, C. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Duncan, Charles | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Shield, George William |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Logan, David Gilbert | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Longbottom, A. W. | Shinwell, E. |
| Elmley, Viscount | Longden, F. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Foot, Isaac | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Freeman, Peter | Lunn, William | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mosslay) | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Gill, T. H. | McElwee, A. | Smith, Tom (Pontetract) |
| Glassey, A. E. | McEntee, V. L. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Gossling, A. G. | McKinlay, A. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Gould, F. | MacLaren, Andrew | Strauss, G. R. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | McShare, John Jamas | Sullivan, J. |
| Gray, Milner | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Mansfield, W. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Marcus, M. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Markham, S. F. | Tout, W. J. |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Marley, J. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Mathers, George | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Matters, L. W. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Messer, Fred | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Middleton, G. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Harbord, A. | Mills, J. E. | White, H. G. |
| Hardie, George D. | Milner, Major J. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Haycock, A. W. | Montague, Frederick | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) |
| Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Morley, Ralph | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Mort, D. L. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Herriotts, J. | Muff, G. | Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R. Wentworth) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Hoffman, P. C. | Oldfield, J. R. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Hollins, A. | Oliver, George Harold (likeston) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hopkin, Daniel | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards. |
| Horrabin, J. F. | Palin, John Henry |
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREOn a point of Order. May I ask whether any of the windows could be opened, as the heat in the House is very unpleasant. If we have to sit until the trams run, it is very unwholesome to have the atmosphere get as stale as it is.
Original Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ Viscount WOLMERI beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the words "a summary of," and in line 3, at the end to add the words
and such accounts shall include a profit and loss account for each farm and a valuation at the end of each financial year.We are now back on the Minister's Amendment, and I would ask him to explain it if he is capable of explaining it.
§ Mr. JOHNSTONOn a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to direct your atten- 2032 tion to the fact that the Noble Lord has grossly insulted my right hon. Friend, and I beg to ask you whether the observation be made is within the Rules of Order and, if not, that he be called upon to withdraw it.
§ Viscount WOLMERI withdraw at once if hon. Members opposite imagine that my remark was made in any offensive sense. I merely meant that we are all very tired. When we were discussing the question of the experiments in large-scale farming on Clause 1 the Minister had a form of words almost identical with the form of words that he is now proposing in regard to the accounts to be laid before Parliament in respect of the large-scale farms. After a certain amount of argument the right hon. Gentleman accepted a large portion of the Amendment of my Noble Friend the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) in regard to these accounts. The 2033 question I want to ask the Minister is, will he not consider putting the form of accounts of the small demonstration farms in exactly the same terms as he has agreed to in regard to the accounts of the large-scale demonstration farms? Surely it is unreasonable that we should say in regard to one of the large-scale demonstration farms that the accounts should include a profit and loss account and a valuation, whereas in regard to these experiments the Minister is using a form of words which he originally intended to be the same but which is not what was agreed to in regard to Clause 1. The mere fact that this form of words is different from the form of words in Clause 1 will cause confusion, because it will be apparent to anyone who reads the Act without having read this Debate that Parliament means something different when he sees a different set of words, and, as I am certain the right hon. Gentleman is anxious that there should be a full statement of accounts both in regard to large-scale demonstration farms and in regard to small-scale demonstration farms, I do impress upon him that he should employ precisely the same form of words in the one case as in the other. My object is to get the same words in Clause 2 as occur in Clause 1.
§ Dr. ADDISONThe form of the Amendment that I have put on the Order Paper was to secure that the cultural results of the demonstration farms are made available to the House of Commons and to the public, apart entirely from the accounts. That is what is meant by the words "the annual report of the operations." For the rest, I do not see any objection to making these words correspond to the others if it will shorten discussion, and, in that spirit, I will accept the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
Amendment to proposed Amendment, agreed to.
Proposed words, as amended, there inserted in the Bill.