§ Mr. McSHANEI beg to move, in page 11, line 18, at the end, to insert the words:
(iii) One representative for each five hundred and portion of additional five hundred persons on the Register not being members of either the said institute or the said association, but being corporate members of an incorporated architectural society of national scope recognised by the council as an electoral body for the purposes of this Schedule of the Act, such representatives to be elected thereafter annually in the same proportion by the governing body of the said society.I will not waste much time on this Amendment, for two reasons. First of all, if I may say so quite jocularly, when the right hon. Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain) raised the point of Order just now, he was showing that he was not entirely familiar with what we were doing, and unfortunately that is true of a large number of Members, necessarily, who have not been in Committee on the Bill.
§ Sir A. CHAMBERLAINWhen the hon. Member makes that charge against me, perhaps he will explain what he means.
§ Mr. McSHANEI mean what I said when I was speaking on the question of the Board of Architectural Education, that it is very difficult for us who have been dealing with this Bill upstairs to 549 explain to Members who have not been intimately associated with it in that way the precise pros and cons of the arguments there adduced.
§ Sir A. CHAMBERLAINThe hon. Member said that I did not understand the Bill. He is mistaken. I understood the Bill perfectly, and if he thinks I did not, perhaps he will explain to me where I was wrong. I was not wrong in my understanding of the Bill, but in my appreciation of the point of Order.
§ Mr. McSHANEThat is precisely what I was getting at. I said that the right hon. Gentleman had not known what had been dealt with at that time, and it was not for me, but for the Deputy-Speaker, to correct him; and, after all, my remark, as I said, was jocular. The first two paragraphs of this Schedule deal with two of the associations that exist at the present time, and those two associations do not cover even a half of the number of architects in this country. There are approximately 20,000 architects an this country, and if I give the generous number to the Royal Institute of British Architects of about 7,000 and 2,000 or 3,000 to the other associations, that only makes about 10,000, so that there are still another 10,000; and this is a provision, if there is another association formed, to enable them to become part and parcel of the General Council.
§ Mr. BRACKENBefore we pass this Amendment, I should like to comment upon the curious argument which has been put forward by the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. McShane). He is, I understand, a teacher, and I am very glad indeed that this wide space is between me and his pedagogic arm, because I tell the House frankly that the language that he has used to the distinguished gentleman the late foreign Secretary and to other Members of this House to-day is really intolerable. He has told us that we know nothing about the Bill, but this insolent pedagogic omniscience is not language that commends itself to the House. This particular Clause is vital to the Bill, and I feel sure that everyone will agree that we must set up a system of education and registration which is watertight. This particular Clause to which objection is taken is vital to the whole Bill, and I hope that in order to facilitate the pas- 550 sage of the Bill, the House will accept this principle and oppose an Amendment which is really wrecking in its intention.
Lieut.-Colonel MOOREAs will be seen from the Bill, the Schedule shows that this new council will consist of architect members, and after all, this is a Bill for the registration of architects. I therefore cannot accept the Amendment.
§ Major LLEWELLINOn a point of Order. Did not the hon. Member second the Amendment?
§ Sir R. GOWERHe distinctly rose and said something.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERI certainly took the hon. Member for North Paddington (Mr. Bracken) as seconding it.
§ Mr. BRACKENI asked if the hon. Member opposite did second it. I certainly did not second it myself.
Mr. WINTERTONThe hon. Member, with an impulsiveness which is rather noticeable and which I am sure all of us admire, managed to get in first. It was my intention to second the Amendment, but, seeing him rise, I naturally gave way. However, I am pleased to see that even inadvertently he has accepted the principle of the Amendment. In fact, I gather that he is asking the House to support it. My hon. Friends agree that his speech was really in support of this addition to the Schedule, and, late a recruit though he be to the penitent form, we welcome him gladly in order to strengthen our somewhat depleted forces.
This Amendment, if accepted, would very considerably shorten the discussion on the Bill, because it would mean that some of the other associations to whom it is sought to give special representation in the Schedule—which hon. Members will see we desire to alter by a considerable number of deletions—would be met by this provision. For instance, there is the Faculty of Architects, and there is the Architectural Association, 551 and there is quite a number of somewhat small and, I think I may say, not national bodies, or semi-national bodies, which the promoters of this Bill have felt that they desire to placate by giving them representation on the Council. If this comprehensive and general Amendment is accepted, it will mean that a good many of the other deletions which we are suggesting would naturally be accepted without any long controversy or discussion.
There are more architects in the country than those who have already been brought into the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors, the Faculty of Architects, the Architectural Association, and other smaller bodies. Someone has suggested that we are legislating to-day for probably a good many years to come, and if any other association in the future get a membership of such considerable proportions as will entitle them, morally if not legally, to representation on the Council, this general Amendment will enable them to be represented. In fact, we suggest that this Sub-section would be a far better way of dealing with all the contending claims of some associations than by putting them in the Schedule as is suggested in the Bill.
What does this House know about the different organisations which are now in the Schedule? We have to take on trust the recommendations of the hon. and gallant Member who is promoting the Bill. He has never told us in Committee what these organisations are. He has never thought it necessary to give the Committee upstairs any kind of informa-
§ tion with regard to some of these bodies, for every 500 members of which they are to have representation on the council; and if, as I think, we shall be disposed to ask the hon. and gallant Member to tell us what is the character of each of these societies, what is its membership, what are its qualifications, perhaps we may not advance so rapidly with this Bill as if we were to accept this umbrella Amendment, if I may so call it, which will really meet the case of all the others which have not so far been included in the Schedule. I, therefore, appeal to hon. Members to follow the lead of the hon. Member for North Paddington (Mr. Bracken), and I hope that the hon. and gallant Member who is in charge of the Bill will accept this proposal, cutting out nobody, but putting in all who can satisfy the council that they have a legitimate claim to representation.
§ Major LLEWELLINI should have thought that the main object of this Bill was to weld architects more or less into one body, and not to encourage the setting up of a large number of additional associations. After all, architects have already the choice, as is to be seen in this Schedule, of five, or, including Ulster, six different branches of architectural bodies. It seems to me that any architect can find a home in one of these existing bodies, and that there is no need to cater for a body which can only arise in the imaginations of hon. Members who propose this Amendment. In these circumstances, I hope that the House will leave the Bill as it is.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 37; Noes, 182.
553| Division No. 214.] | AYES. | [2.29 p.m. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Hardie, George D. | Rowson, Guy |
| Ayles, Walter | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Batey, Joseph | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Kelly, W. T. | Simms, Major-General J. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Longden, F. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Cameron, A. G. | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | McElwee, A. | Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) |
| Cove, William G. | McEntee, V. L. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Daggar, George | Manning, E. L. | Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) | Marley, J. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Freeman, Peter | Matters, L. W. | |
| Gould, F. | Naylor, T. E. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Mr. McShane and Mr. March. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Blindell, James |
| Albery, Irving James | Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. |
| Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) | Berry, Sir George | Bowen, J. w. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) | Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. |
| Arnott, John | Bird, Ernest Roy | Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. |
| Boyce, Leslie | Hicks, Ernest George | Raynes, W. R. |
| Bracken, B. | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth) | Remer, John R. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Hoffman, P. C. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) | Horrabin, J. F. | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Buchan, John | Hurd, Percy A. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Inskip, Sir Thomas | Romeril, H. G. |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Isaacs, George | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Jones, Llewellyn-, F. | Ross, Ronald D. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Rothschild, J. de |
| Chamberlain Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Knight, Holford | Salmon, Major I. |
| Chater, Daniel | Knox, Sir Alfred | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Church, Major A. G. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Lathan, G. | Sandsman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Lawrence, Susan | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Leach, W. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) |
| Duncan, Charles | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Ede, James Chuter | Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Strauss, G. R. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Marjoribanks, Edward | Sutton, J. E. |
| Foot, Isaac | Mathers, George | Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Mills, J. E. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Morris, Rhys Hopkins | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Tillett, Ben |
| Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Glassey, A. E. | Mort, D. L. | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Gower, sir Robert | Muff, G. | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Gray, Milner | Muggeridge, H. T. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Muirhead, A. J. | Walker, J. |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Oldfield, J. R. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Owen, H. F. (Hereford) | Westwood, Joseph |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Palin, John Henry | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Paling, Wilfrid | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Penny, Sir George | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Perry, S. [...] | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Withers, Sir John James |
| Harris, Percy A. | Phillips, Dr. Marion | Womersley, W. J. |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Pole, Major D. G. | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Haycock, A. W. | Potts, John S. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Preston, Sir Walter Rueben | |
| Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Pybus, Percy John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Lieut.-Colonel Moore and Major Llewellin. |
| Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Rathbone, Eleanor |
Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.
§
Amendments made: In page 11, line 21, after the word "Surveyors," insert the words:
resident in the United Kingdom.
In line 26, after the word "(London)," insert the words:
resident in the United Kingdom and excluding student members.
In line 38, after the word "together," insert the words:
resident in the United Kingdom and not being members of the parent bodies."—[Mr. McShane.]
Lieut.-Colonel MOOREI beg to move, in page 13, line 9, to leave out the word "Government," and to insert instead thereof the word "Governor."
554 This is a drafting Amendment, to provide that the appointment of one person shall be made by the Governor of Northern Ireland.
§ Amendment agreed to.
Sir M. MACDONALDI beg to move, in page 13, to leave out line 15.
I am authorised to say on behalf of the Institute of Civil Engineers that they gave no authority for the insertion of their name in this list, and that they desire to have their name removed. I hope it is not the method of the promoters to put the names of institutions into the Schedule without collaboration with the institutions themselves in regard to the other members of the council that is being set up.
§ Sir R. GOWERI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.