§ Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 25, leave out "Coal Mines Reorganisation 2299 Commission," and insert "Board of Trade."
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 18, line 40, disagreed with.
§ Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 41, leave out the words "and submit."
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI wish for an explanation of the reason why we should disagree with this Amendment. I agree that there would be no reason for preparing a report unless it was to be submitted to a certain body, but on matters of importance such as are indicated here it is only right that the House as a whole should have some explanation from the President of the Board of Trade of the reasons why this Amendment should not be agreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 18, line 43, disagreed with.
§ Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 4, after the word "that," insert:
- "(a) no scheme prepared under this section shall be referred to the Railway and Canal Commission unless the owner of at least one undertaking proposed to be amalgamated or absorbed by the scheme assents to the scheme being so referred;
- (b)"
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This Amendment is also covered by the explanation which I have already given to the House. It turns on the point of a single owner's assent to the reference of
§ a scheme to the Railway and Canal Commission, and in our view that would destroy the guarantee of initiative under the Bill.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI do not propose to argue this point at length because it was argued when the Bill was in the Committee stage, and for my own part I am content to adopt in extenso the very admirable arguments on this subject which were advanced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Runciman) in his criticism of these proposals. The right hon. Gentleman, than whom no one has greater experience of successful business administration and successful amalgamation, laid it down, and I respectfully agree with him, that successful amalgamation and the successful conduct of business generally depends very largely on having people who are willing to conduct a business with a belief in the success of the business. I venture to think that there is no man in the House with any experience of business who would not agree to the soundness of that principle. I merely put this question to hon. Members. If the Board of Trade propounds an amalgamation scheme which no single owner of those to be amalgamated is ready or willing to work, which no single owner thinks will be successful, and if the Board of Trade do so, while taking no financial responsibility for the amalgamation which they seek to promote, then I would ask—and this is the test—which hon. Member opposite would put his own money or the money of his trade union into such an amalgamation?
§ Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 281, Noes, 130.
2303| Division No. 342.] | AYES. | [10.33 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Batey, Joseph | Brothers, M. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Bellamy, Albert | Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) |
| Aitchinon, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. | Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) | Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Benson, G. | Buchanan, G. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Bentham, Dr. Ethel | Burgess, F. G. |
| Amman, Charles George | Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Burgin, Dr. E. L. |
| Arnott, John | Birkett, W. Norman | Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Caine, Derwent Hall- |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Bowen, J. W. | Cameron, A. G. |
| Ayles, Walter | Broad, Francis Alfred | Cape, Thomas |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Bromfield, William | Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Bromley, J. | Charieton, H. C. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Brooke, W. | Chater, Daniel |
| Church, Major A. G. | Lambert, Rt. Han. George (S. Molton) | Romeril, H. G. |
| Clarke, J. S. | Lang, Gordon | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Rowson, Guy |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Lathan, G. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Compton, Joseph | Law, A. (Rosendale) | Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) |
| Cove, William G. | Lawrence, Susan | Sanders, W. S. |
| Daggar, George | Lawson, John James | Sandham, E. |
| Dallas, George | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Dalton, Hugh | Leach, W. | Scott, James |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Scurr John |
| Dickson, T. | Lees, J. | Sexton, James |
| Dukes, C. | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Duncah, Charles | Lindley, Fred W. | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Shield, George William |
| Edge, Sir William | Longbottom, A. W. | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Longden, F. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Elmley, Viscount | Lowth, Thomas | Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) |
| England, Colonel A. | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Sinkinson, George |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Foot, Isaac, | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
| Forgan, Dr. Robert | McElwee, A. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | McEntee, V. L. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) | McKinlay, A. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | McShane, John James | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Snell, Harry |
| Gill, T. H. | Mansfield, W. | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Gillett, George M. | March, S. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Marcus, M. | Sorensen, R. |
| Gould, F. | Markham, S. F. | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Marley, J. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mathers, George | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Granville, E. | Matters, L. W. | Strachey, E. J. St. Loe |
| Gray, Milner | Maxton, James | Strauss, G. R. |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Melville, Sir James | Sullivan, J. |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Messer, Fred | Sutton, J. E. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Middleton, G. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Millar, J. D. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Milner, Major J. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Montague, Frederick | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Tillett, Ben |
| Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Morley, Ralph | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Toole, Joseph |
| Harbison, T. J. | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Tout, W. J. |
| Harbord, A. | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Townend, A. E. |
| Hardie, George D. | Mort, D. L. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Harris, Percy A. | Moses, J. J. H. | Turner, B. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernoh | Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) | Vaughan, D. J. |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) | Viant, S. P. |
| Haycock, A. W. | Muff, G. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Muggeridge, H. T. | Walker, J. |
| Hayes, John Henry | Nathan, Major H. L. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Naylor, T. E. | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor |
| Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Oldfield, J. R. | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Herriotts, J. | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Hollins, A. | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Hopkin, Daniel | Owen, H. F. (Hereford) | West, F. R. |
| Horrabin, J. F. | Palin, John Henry. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Paling, Wilfrid | White, H. G. |
| Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Palmer, E. T. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Perry, S. F. | Whiteley, William (Blayden) |
| Isaacs, George | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Pole, Major D. G. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Johnston, Thomas | Potts, John S. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Price, M. P. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Pybus, Percy John | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Quibell, D. J. K. | Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Wise, E. F. |
| Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Rathbone, Eleanor | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. | Richards, R. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | |
| Kennedy, Thomas | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Kinley, J. | Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. |
| Knight, Holford | Ritson, J. | Charles Edwards. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) |
| Albery, Irving James | Atkinson, C. | Balniel, Lord |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Fielden, E. B. | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | O'Connor, T. J. |
| Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Gault, Lieut.-Col, Andrew Hamilton | Peake, Captain Osbert |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Gower, Sir Robert | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Bracken, B. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Remer, John R. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Ross, Major Ronald D. |
| Butler, R. A. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Hammersley, S. S. | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hartington, Marquess of | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton | Haslam, Henry C. | Savery, S. S. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) |
| Christie, J. A. | Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Hurd, Percy A. | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Stanley Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) |
| Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Knox, Sir Alfred | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Locker-Sampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Long, Major Eric | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Macquisten, F. A. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Making, Brigadier-General E. | |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Marjoribanks, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Sir George Penny and Captain |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Wallace. |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 19, line 10, agreed to.
§
Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 11, at the end, insert
(c) no coal mine belonging to a company whereof all the shares are held by the owner of an undertaking of which the primary object is not coal-mining shall, so long as it is worked as ancillary to such primary object, be amalgamated or absorbed by virtue of a scheme prepared under this section without the consent of the owner of that undertaking.
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
This requires a word of explanation. On the top of page 19 of the Bill there is a proviso
that no such scheme of amalgamation shall provide, without the consent of the owner of the undertaking, for the separation of the treating and disposing of coal from the working thereof, or, in the case of an undertaking of which the primary object is not coal-mining, for the separation from the undertaking of any coal mine worked as ancillary for such primary object.2304 That was agreed when we were in the Committee stage, and the House of Lords proposed to insert an addition which will now rank as paragraph (c), which simply refers to an undertaking in which all the shares are hold by another undertaking. In the one case it is definitely attached, and in the other it is a legally separate entity, but the shares are held by the other undertaking, and it is plain that an undertaking in that position should be in the same position as one which is covered in the proviso at the top of page 19.
§
Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 11, at the end, insert the following new Sub-section:
(2) In the consideration by the Railway and Canal Commission of a scheme prepared by the Board of Trade under this section the following paragraph shall be substituted for paragraph (a) of the proviso to subsection (2) of section seven of the Act of 1926 (which relates to consideration of schemes by the Commission):—
'(a) shall not confirm a scheme unless satisfied—
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
Under the Act of 1926, which is continued subject to the compulsory provisions of the coal mines reorganisation scheme, it is the duty of the Railway and Canal Commission to have regard to whether a scheme is in the national interest in the first place, and, in the next place, whether it is fair and equitable among the parties affected. The Amendment which has been inserted by another place quite clearly goes well beyond the provisions of the Act of 1926, because hon. Members will observe that under paragraph (a) of the Amendment, the scheme must
result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal,and under paragraph (b) it is not to be:Financially injurious to any of the undertakings proposed to be amalgamated, unless the scheme contains provisions for the purchase, at a price to be fixed in default of agreement by arbitration, of any such undertaking.The first point there is covered by the existing direction to the Railway and Canal Commission as to whether the scheme is to the public interest, and the second point is covered by the direction as to whether it is fair and equitable among the parties. To insert this Amendment in the Bill would go well beyond the provisions of the Act of 1926, or which our predecessors in office were responsible, and would make it very difficult, if not impossible, in some cases for the amalgamation to be effective.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAt an earlier stage this evening we had a very long debate on something which the President of the Board of Trade said at first was unnecessary and then was covered. We found that it was not unnecessary and it certainly was not 2306 covered, and from all quarters an appeal was made to him to meet the position which then arose. This Amendment is one of considerable importance. We now have established that the Board of Trade, through the instrumentality of its peripatetic commissioners, may propose any amalgamation of collieries to the Railway and Canal Commission, notwithstanding the fact that not a single coal owner concerned is anxious or, indeed, willing to conduct the combined business. We now propose in this Amendment that the Railway and Canal Commission shall not approve of a scheme of that kind unless, first of all, it is in the national interest, and secondly, that it will result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal and will not be financially injurious to any of the undertakings concerned, or, if it be financially injurious to them, that they shall be bought out at a price to be settled by arbitration.
I should have thought that those were very fair and reasonable proposals to put into an amalgamation scheme. I have had experience of conducting negotiations for amalgamations, and I do not think those of us who have had such experience have ever gone into an amalgamation proposal, at least with any prospect of carrying it through, unless we were satisfied that the conditions laid down were conditions which we should be able to satisfy our partners were certain to be equitable. What is the answer of the President of the Board of Trade? It is a two-fold answer, and each answer destroys the other. In the first place, he says, "I cannot accept the Amendment, because it goes beyond the Act of 1926." That is his first objection. His second answer is, "I do not accept your proposal, because it is already covered by the Act of 1926." I listened very carefully and understood that was his argument.
Let me take the items in turn. I certainly understood him to say that and I think he really did say it, because I took it down. He said it went beyond the Act of 1926, and, therefore, the House ought not to be asked to accept it, and a little later on he said it was quite unnecessary, because it was already covered by the provisions in the Act of 1926. He said it was covered by the terms "fair and equitable." If it goes beyond the Act of 1926, it cannot be covered, and, 2307 equally, if it goes beyond the Act of 1926, so does his own proposal. The Act of 1926 assumes willing owners or, at any rate, one willing owner coming forward to promote schemes in which he is willing to take financial responsibility. That is the most extreme case. Otherwise it contemplates a number of willing owners who go into partnership.
The President of the Board of Trade proposes to go a great deal further than that, and to force amalgamation upon unwilling owners. I appeal to the House. Are these terms unreasonable to be applied when you are forcing a number of unwilling people into amalgamations? What is the first? It is that the scheme should be in the national interest. That is common ground between us, because unless it is in the national interest, the Railway and Canal Commissioners would have no jurisdiction to entertain it, or, at any rate, to approve it. What is the second? It is that the amalgamation scheme will result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal. What is the objection of the President of the Board of Trade to that? I thought the whole object of his scheme, as introduced by the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and accepted by the right hon. Gentleman more or less under duress, was that the cost of production or disposal of coal was going to be so lowered by these amalgamation schemes that the consumer would not have to pay any more, and the miner would enjoy larger wages and shorter hours. That is the whole object of these schemes. If amalgamation imposed upon a number of unwilling owners does not give better production and cheaper coal, what earthly justification have you for putting all these people to this expense and forcing them into amalgamation?
I ask the President of the Board of Trade this specific question. Does he or does he not propose to submit a scheme to the Railway and Canal Commissioners unless he is satisfied that that scheme will reduce the cost of producing coal or the cost of disposal of coal? Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to put forward a scheme, or to allow a scheme to be put forward unless he is satisfied that it will result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal? It is for the President of the Board of Trade to 2308 answer that question when he is inviting the House to disagree with an Amendment which appears to me to be thoroughly reasonable. If this was not done in 1926, it was not done because the 1926 Act contemplated willing people, and here you are dealing with unwilling people.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSWould the right hon. Gentleman embody in a Measure of compulsory amalgamation the suggestion which he now asks my right hon. Friend to adopt?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAbsolutely. I should never have asked for compulsory powers which did not contain that suggestion. In one breath the President of the Board of Trade tells us that this point is covered, and in another breath he contradicts that statement. I say that I would not have asked for compulsory powers without giving such an undertaking and laying down those conditions. [Interruption.] Perhaps we shall come to the conclusion of this debate much quicker if I am allowed to proceed without being interrupted. I would certainly not have proposed that you should force owners, much less unwilling owners, into an amalgamation unless I could satisfy the tribunal that was to be my judge that such amalgamation would result in the lowering of the cost of production or disposal of coal. I ask whether under this scheme the right hon. Gentleman proposes to submit schemes to the Railway and Canal Commission or to allow that Commission to suggest amalgamations which do not do that? If the answer is that he will not submit a scheme unless he is satisfied that it fulfils these conditions, he ought to put these conditions into the Bill. There can be no possible objection to his doing that, and the House of Lords were perfectly right to put them in. If, on the other hand, the President of the Board of Trade is going to propose amalgamations which he cannot satisfy a tribunal will reduce the cost of production or disposal of coal, then we are going to have amalgamations for the sake of the name of amalgamation, which is just about as futile a thing as could be done. The right hon. Gentleman must accept one of two things. If he is going to force amalgamations through which cannot serve the public interest by reducing 2309 costs, we know where we are. If that be not his intention, let him put his intention into the Bill.
11.0 p.m.
I come to the third proposal, that you ought not to propose an amalgamation, or the Railway and Canal Commission ought not to sanction an amalgamation, even though it is in the public interest, if it is unfair to the parties concerned, unless you are prepared to buy them out. Is that accepted, or is it not? If it is, let it be put plainly in the Bill. If it is not, then I say that a gross injustice is being done. Let me take an example. I do not confine myself to coal mines, and one is not entitled to do so on a great question like this. Go into the shipping industry if you like. I can well conceive that it might be in the public interest that two shipping lines should be amalgamated. They might be able to run a better service. But one of them may be a line with heavy liabilities upon it, which is carried on to-day either at a heavy loss or, at the best, a bare margin of profit. On the other side you may have a line of great efficiency, with large reserves, and admirably managed. It may well be possible even that their ships sail to the same ports, and it may be said that it is in the national interest that they should be amalgamated. On what terms would you propose to amalgamate them? Would you propose to say that these two lines should be forced into an amalgamation in the public interest, although the efficient and successful line will suffer a loss of hundreds of thousands of pounds in consequence? The same is true of coal. Where there is one undertaking that is very successful and profitable, it may be in the national interest that it should amalgamate with two or three other concerns, but by being amalgamated its financial position may be gravely weakened, and its chance of obtaining dividends in the future may be destroyed.
§ The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Mr. Montague)You would destroy competition.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERDestroy competition? What are you doing? That is really an intervention which is not worthy of the Front Bench. The hon. Gentleman had better read this Bill and see how much competition will be left after it goes through. It is a Bill, not 2310 only to destroy competition, but to make it a penal offence to compete. [Interruption.] I understood that I was asked if I wished to destroy competition. What the President of the Board of Trade is proposing to do is to force amalgamation. Does he propose to force amalgamation where it would be to the financial detriment of one of the parties? If he does propose that, does he not think that in common justice, if it is in the national interest and if the court finds that the terms are unfair, that party which will be damnified should be bought out as a term of the amalgamation? These are the proposals which are contained in this Amendment, and I ask the House whether every one of them is not absolutely fair and reasonable, and a proposal which any Member of this House doing a business deal with another man in a honest manner would insist on having carried out? If that be true, I ask why we should not in legislation, and very unnecessary legislation at that, adopt at any rate that standard of morality which every one of us would insist upon in our business relations?
Sir H. SAMUELI ask leave to make a few observations on the case which has been presented by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister). He says that there are four proposals here which ought to be embodied in the Bill. I take it that the provisions of the Act of 1926 are imported into the Bill already. If I am wrong, perhaps the President of the Board of Trade will correct me, but it seems pretty clear from Clause 13 that all of these schemes must be schemes under Part I of the Mining Industry Act, 1926, and that the provisions of that Act are imported into this Bill as though they were re-enacted here. The first of the four points mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman is that a scheme ought not to be confirmed unless it is in the national interest to do so. That is in the Act of 1926. The second is that the amalgamation scheme shall result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal. That is a very difficult matter to define. More suitable language would be, "If the commission were satisfied that it is expedient for the purpose of promoting the more economical and efficient working, treating or disposal of coal." That, I think, is what the right hon. Gentleman really has in mind. It 2311 is much the same wording, but would be much more easy for the commission to apply. Those are the first words of Clause 13 (1) and, in emphasising this point, my right hon. Friend must have overlooked the fact that this very point is embodied in the legislation before us.
The third point is that the scheme will not be financially injurious to
any of the undertakings proposed to be amalgamated unless the scheme contains provisions for the purchase and fixing of prices by arbitration,and so forth. There, again, the actual wording of the provision would be extremely difficult to apply. When you say it is not to be financially injurious to any undertaking, suppose a mining undertaking, like any other, is in difficulties. It is overcapitalised. In order to promote the prosperity of the whole group of mines the capital of one has to be written down, perhaps drastically. Is that to be regarded as financially injurious or not? One can understand that the case might be taken into Court if these words were imported into the Act, and very great difficulties might arise. What you really want to provide is that any scheme should be fair and equitable to all the persons affected thereby. That is the fourth provision here, and that is already in the Act of 1926, and is, therefore, imported into the Bill. Those very words are in the Act of 1926 for which the right hon. Gentleman was responsible:provide that the commission shall confirm the scheme if they are satisfied that it would be in the national interest to do so, and that the terms of the scheme are fair and equitable to all persons affected thereby.In these circumstances, it appears that the Amendment is unnecessary.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERMay I ask why, if the whole of this is covered by the words of the Act of 1926, the President of the Board of Trade said he cannot accept this, because it went beyond the Act of 1926?
§ Captain PEAKEThe right hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in saying Sub-section (2), which provides that the Railway and Canal Commissioners must be 2312 satisfied that the scheme will result in lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal is covered by the provision in the Bill—the purpose of promoting more economical and efficient working, treating or disposal of coal. That provision is a thing of which the reorganisation commissioners must be satisfied.
§ Captain PEAKEThe Railway and Canal Commissioners are a judicial tribunal. Witnesses can appear and be cross-examined. The reorganisation commissioners will work in the dark. How are we to have a test whether they have satisfied themselves that these grounds have been fulfilled? The President of the Board of Trade says it is unnecessary for the Railway and Canal Commissioners to be satisfied that the cost of production of coal would be lowered, because he says that is already covered by the provision that the scheme must be in the national interest. I have sat many a time in the Railway and Canal Commission and heard the present Lord Chancellor say, when these combinations of coalowners reached a certain size, beyond that size he was not prepared to say combinations would be in the national interest, because the consumer might suffer. Although the amalgamation may reduce the cost of production of coal, yet he would not be prepared to say it was in the national interest. The two things are by no means the same. The onus is upon those who have urged this principle of compulsory amalgamation to satisfy the court that the cost of production is going to be lowered. The whole case of compulsory amalgamation rests upon the fact that the cost of production will be lowered. That was the case put forward by Sir Arthur Duckham. The report of Sir Arthur Duckham was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) to be the best report upon amalgamations. That is a very poor compliment to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), because the report of Sir Arthur Duck-ham is compressed into less than half a page, whereas the report of the right hon. Gentleman covers chapters and chapters.
§ Captain PEAKEI think it is essential that samething of this sort should be inserted in the Bill. I can assure the President of the Board of Trade that, unless the amalgamation reduces the cost of production, it will be of no use whatever. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) said: "Why stop at the coal industry? Why not extend it to agriculture, for instance?" The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) always bolsters up his arguments by referring to the German coal fields and pointing out that the size of the units there is far bigger than here. You might as well say that our farming is all wrong because in South Africa farms are larger. You can easily point to farms in Denmark and say that as they are only one-third of the size of the farms in this country that therefore Danish farms are not so good as farms in this country. The mere size of the unit has nothing to do with the question. What we want is efficiency, and that is what the Amendment aims at. Unless we can get a safeguard of this sort, or a safeguard of some description the coal trade will have bitter cause for regretting its connection with the right hon. Member for Darwen, from whom these proposals come. To-day it is exceedingly difficult to get new capital for the coal industry. Who is going to lend,
§ advance or invest a penny in the coal industry if there is no security either that the concern in which the investment is made is going to remain the same for a month or that these people in whom the investor has some confidence because of their judgment are going to remain in that concern for a month? I press upon the right hon. Gentleman the urgent necessity of embodying some sort of qualification of this kind which will provide that the amalgamation will do something to promote the more efficient working of coal. That is a thing which it will be able to decide by cross-examination before the Railway and Canal Commission.
§ Major COLFOXI should like to ask the President of the Board of Trade a question. What is the object of any of these amalgamation schemes if it is not to produce the result of lowering the cost of production or disposal of coal? All these suggestions of amalgamation are absolutely useless and worthless unless they have that as their object. If he will answer by saying that that is their object, then why does he refuse to include this paragraph in the Bill? Unless he can say that, his objection to the Amendment is futile.
§ Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 272; Noes, 122.
2317| Division No. 343.] | AYES. | [11.14 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Edwards, E. (Morpeth) |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) | Elmley, Viscount |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Buchanan, G. | England, Colonel A. |
| Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. | Burgess, F. G. | Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Burgin, Dr. E. L. | Foot, Isaac |
| Alpass, J. H. | Caine, Derwent Hall- | Forgan, Dr. Robert |
| Ammon, Charles George | Cameron, A. G. | Freeman, Peter |
| Arnott, John | Cape, Thomas | Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) | Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Charieton, H. C. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) |
| Ayles, Walter | Chater, Daniel | Gibbins, Joseph |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Church, Major A. G. | Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Clarke, J. S. | Gill, T. H. |
| Batey, Joseph | Cluse, W. S. | Gillett, George M. |
| Bellamy, Albert | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Gossling, A. G. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Gould, F. |
| Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) | Cove, William G. | Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) |
| Benson, G. | Daggar, George | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) |
| Bentham, Dr. Ethel | Dallas, George | Granville, E. |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Dalton, Hugh | Gray, Milner |
| Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) |
| Bowen, J. W. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Dickson, T. | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) |
| Bromfield, William | Dukes, C. | Groves, Thomas E. |
| Bromley, J. | Duncan, Charles | Grundy, Thomas W. |
| Brooke, W. | Ede, James Chuter | Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) |
| Brothers, M. | Edge, Sir William | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) | Edmunds, J. E. | Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Markham, S. F. | Shield, George William |
| Harbison, T. J. | Marley, J. | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Marbord, A. | Mathers, George | Shinwell, E. |
| Hardie, George D. | Matters, L. W. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Harris, Percy A. | Maxton, James | Simmons, C. J. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Melville, Sir James | Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Messer, Fred | Sinkinson, George |
| Haycock, A. W. | Middleton, G. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Millar, J. D. | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
| Hayes, John Henry | Mills, J. E. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Milner, Major J. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Montague, Frederick | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Morley, Ralph | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Herriotts, J. | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip |
| Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Hollins, A. | Mort, D. L. | Sorensen, R. |
| Hopkin, Daniel | Moses, J. J. H. | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Horrabin, J. F. | Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) | Strachey, E. J. St. Loe |
| Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Muff, G. | Strauss, G. R. |
| Isaacs, George | Muggeridge, H. T. | Sullivan, J. |
| Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Nathan, Major H. L. | Sutton, J. E. |
| John, William (Rhondda, West) | Naylor, T. E. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) |
| Johnston, Thomas | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Noel Baker, P. J. | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Oldfield, J. R. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Tillett, Ben |
| Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) | Toole, Joseph |
| Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. | Owen, H. F. (Hereford) | Tout, W. J. |
| Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Palin, John Henry | Townend, A. E. |
| Kennedy, Thomas | Palmer, E. T. | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Kinley, J. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Turner, B. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Perry, S. F. | Vaughan, D. J. |
| Lang, Gordon | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Viant, S. P. |
| Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Walkden, A. G. |
| Lathan, G. | Potts, John S. | Walker, J. |
| Law, Albert (Bolton) | Price, M. P. | Wallace, H. W. |
| Law, A. (Rossendale) | Pybus, Percy John | Wallhead, Richard C. |
| Lawrence, Susan | Quibell, D. J. K. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Lawson, John James | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Rathbone, Eleanor | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Leach, W. | Richards, R. | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) | West, F. R. |
| Lees, J. | Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Westwood, Joseph |
| Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Ritson, J. | White, H. G. |
| Lindley, Fred W. | Romeril, H. G. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Lloyd, C. Ellis | Rosbotham, D. S. T. | Whiteley, William (Blaydon) |
| Longbottom, A. W. | Rowson, Guy | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Longden, F. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Salter, Dr. Alfred | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Sanders, W. S. | Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) |
| McElwee, A. | Sandham, E. | Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| McEntee, V. L. | Sawyer, G. F. | Wise, E. F. |
| McKinlay, A. | Scott, James | Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) |
| Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Scrymgeour, E. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| McShane, John James | Scurr, John | |
| Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Sexton, James | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mansfield, W. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis | Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. |
| Marcus, M. | Sherwood, G. H. | Paling. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Carver, Major W. H. | Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip |
| Albery, Irving James | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Dalkeith, Earl of |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey |
| Atkinson, C. | Cazalet, Captain Victor A. | Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton | Davies, Dr. Vernon |
| Balniel, Lord | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Chapman, Sir S. | Edmondson, Major A. J. |
| Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) | Christie, J. A. | Elliot, Major Walter E. |
| Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Colfox, Major William Philip | Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Colman, N. C. D. | Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Colville, Major D. J. | Ferguson, Sir John |
| Bracken, B. | Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Fermoy, Lord |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Fielden, E. B. |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. |
| Brown, Brig.-Glen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) | Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton |
| Butler, R. A. | Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) |
| Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Marjoribanks, E. C. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) | Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) |
| Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Stewart, W. J. (Belfast South) |
| Gritten, W. G. Howard | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Peake, Captain Osbert | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Penny, Sir George | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Hartington, Marquess of | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Haslam, Henry C. | Ramsbotham, H. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Remer, John R. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Ross, Major Ronald D. | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Hurd, Percy A. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Salmon, Major I. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Knox, Sir Alfred | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) | Womersley, W. J. |
| Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. | |
| Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Savery, S. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Long, Major Eric | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome | Major Sir George Hennessy and |
| Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) | Captain Wallace. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendment, in page 19, line 14, disagreed with.
§ Lords Amendment: In page 19, line 18, leave out "money or securities," and insert "property whether real or personal."
§ Mr. W. GRAHAMI beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."
The House will remember that a safeguard was introduced in reference to the reserves of transferror undertakings, and provision was made to secure that the "money or securities" would not be transferred to the transferee undertaking. The Amendment proposed to substitute "property, whether real or personal" which is a wider form of words than "money or securities."
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 20, line 9, disagreed with.