HC Deb 28 July 1930 vol 242 cc190-203
Sir PHILIP SASSOON

I beg to move, in page 72, line 17, column 2, to leave out the words "Romney Denge Marsh Main Drains."

The object of this Amendment is to exclude the Romney Marsh Level from the list of catchment areas in the First Schedue and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will accept it. I am appealing to him on behalf of a body which has, not only by its great historical associations but also by the great success which has attended their work for some many centuries, a strong claim for special treatment by the House of Commons and to special treatment in this Bill. Since the earliest times of which we have a record the Romney Marsh Level has been considered a district apart. Neunius, in his Historia Britonum, wrote:

the first marvel of Britain is the Lumonry Marsh, for in it are sixty islands with men living on them. It is girt by sixty rocks and in every rock is an eagle's nest, and sixty rivers flow into it, and yet there goes into the sea but one river which is called the Limen. This old historian, being a Welshman, may not have been very accurate in his account because it is difficult to find these rocks and still more difficult to find the eagles or the 60 rivers which he described, there is no doubt that his sixty marshes have been made into a level of uncommon fertility which provides pasturage for a famous breed of sheep, and the 60 rivers now discharge their waters through well constructed sluices. So complete and so efficient is this system of drainage that in the course of the last generation there have only been three severe droughts in the Romney Marsh during which time it has been difficult to provide water for the cattle and sheep upon it.

The beginnings of this remarkable system of drainage which has made Romney Marsh what it is to-day go back into the mists of time. The great Rhee wall may have been built by the Romans or by some earlier peoples. Certainly the Romans had a hand in building the sea wall. In 1252 the sea defences which had been badly breached by a series of violent storms, were entrusted to the existing authority and were given a charter by Henry III. That corporation rapidly became a model for all existing drainage authorities of that day, and I should like to point out to the Minister of Agriculture that ever since 1252 the same authority has dealt with the drainage system of the Romney Marsh, and has done it by raising its own money by means of Scots levied on the inhabi-has been said by another early authority that there are five quarters of the world, America, Europe, Asia, Africa and the Romney Marsh. Why run counter to the decrees of nature, why break up the continuity of 1,000 years or more? Why replace an river. The Limen has long ceased to system. It is a purely military defence. It was built to keep out Napoleon, not to drain the Marsh.

There is a good precedent for what I am asking in this Amendment. This very area was excluded from the Sewers Bill in 1833, and all subsequent Acts have recognised that this particular area was distinct from any other. It has been said that there are five quarters of the world, America, Europe, Asia, Africa and the Romney Marsh. Why run counter to the traditions of the past, why break up the continuity of 1,000 years or more? Why replace an organisation which for centuries has discharged its work so efficiently and so cheaply? The Romney Marsh is not a catchment area at all in the sense of this Bill. It is a purely individual area. There is no main drain; there is no main river. The Lymne has long ceased to have any existence of its own, and the Hythe Canal is not part of the drainage system. It was a purely military defence. It was built to keep out Napoleon, not to drain the Marsh.

The level drainage of to-day is a network of large and small drains which empty, through a series of up-to-date sluices, the surplus water of 24,000 acres. The whole of the water is below high-water mark. Members of the House know that meetings of protest have been held by all the local authorities affected by the Bill, and all the authorities are strongly opposed to it. Where all are so satisfied with the work that has been done, why should the Minister seek to destroy this satisfaction It will do no damage to exclude the Romney Marsh level. On the contrary, to do so will give intense local satisfaction. It will avoid a great many injustices of all kinds, and will preserve the finest drainage system of the country. It will preserve also the continuity of 700 years. I hope the Minister will see his way to exclude Romney Marsh level from this list of catchment areas.

Sir W. WAYLAND

I beg to support the Amendment. The Romney Marsh level should make a special claim upon the Minister and upon the House. We have heard from the right hon. Member for Folkestone (Sir P. Sassoon) its ancient history. It is governed by one of the undemocratic bodies of the world, and, like all very undemocratic bodies, it is governed much more efficiently than if it were governed by a democratic body. The peculiar claim which the right hon. Member for Folkestone has mentioned is that is is practically a body and a land unto itself. It has a very strong sea wall which has cost a considerable amount of money. Another claim it makes is that it wants to be left alone. It is quite willing to go on paying for the upkeep of the very expensive and very strong sea wall, four miles long, and also the cost of drainage of that land, which is practically surrounded by hills. It does not want to come upon the Minister or the country for a penny. I think the least the Minister can do is to leave it alone and let it go on in the same way as it has done, not for a thousand years, but for about 1,200 or 1,300 years. It really goes back to Anglo-Saxon times. I sincerely hope it will go on until all of us have left the House, and till the House itself will probably have fallen into natural ruin.

Dr. ADDISON

The House will have listened with great interest to the ancient history of Romney Marshes. There are other drainage authorities that are several hundreds of years old. If we are to begin exemptions, we should never know where to stop. We have to make up our minds that we are going to have a system working uniformly, and that we are not going to pick out this body or the other on the ground of its antiquity. The very ancient bodies are usually extraordinarily efficient; so is the body mentioned in the Amendment, very efficient indeed. I think it has pride of place as well as pride of name. At the same time I do not think that there is anything undignified about this authority becoming a catchment area authority. It is true that their obsolete method of appointing commissioners will have to disappear and give way to other methods. I am afraid that there is no particular reason why we should single out this body. There are two or three other bodies for whom similar claims would be made, and without any disrespect to the length of service of this authority, I can see no reason for making an exception in its case.

Mr. GUINNESS

I am very disappointed at the rigid attitude of the Minister and I do not think it is the case that, if he excepted the Romney Marsh authority, it would lead to any kind of difficulty and set a precedent for excepting other boards. The Royal Commission laid special stress on the unique position of that authority, which has existed since before this Assembly was even known as a Parliament. It seems to me that there is a strong claim on grounds, partly of sentiment, but also on grounds of administration, for keeping this organisation alive. The Minister did not apply himself to the strongest argument of my right hon. Friend—that there really is no main river in that area. He told us, I think, that there were 60 islands and that the only considerable watercourse is a canal, in no way concerned with drainage. The whole essence of the functions of the catchment authority is that they are to administer the main river the Minister has to produce a map of the main river, and the authority has to be concerned with the banks and the efficiency of the main river, and with no other direct administrative work. The Romney Marsh authority were never heard upon the details of their system. They have been put into the Schedule without the Royal Commission—in the opinion of the Romney Marsh authority itself—being aware of the position, and they ask to be taken out. There is nothing final in such an omission. If there is any need to bring them in, they can always be covered by an order of the Minister, and that would enable them to have the hearing which they have claimed, but so far have not received.

The object of the Bill is to bring into contribution the upland areas which, so far, have escaped any responsibility for the cost of voiding the water which falls from those lands. That condition does not apply to Romney Marsh. The whole catchment area is already, I understand, within the administration of the authority. They rate the whole of the catchment area at present, on a well-established basis, and therefore no new source of contributions is going to be brought to the support of this body. This body is not a commission of sewers, but something far earlier—a pre-historic body. Tradition does count, and when we have a body like this going back to the earliest origin of self-government, we ought to keep it, as it were, in a museum. When an upstart body like Parliament lays down laws for an ancient body like that which governs Romney Marsh, one is reminded of the schoolboy phrase, that it is a case of teaching our grandmother to suck eggs. As they are doing their work very efficiently, I cannot see that there is any sound case for upsetting their constitution by putting it on an elective basis. The Royal Commission reported that there was considerable justification for the system of nomination. In that way you get people who would not serve on an elected body. Even in these democratic days we have many nominated bodies doing their work very well. I know that they are not popular with hon. Members opposite. We know the turn up that the Government had 10 days ago over a nominated body. Yet these bodies have performed their function for the public good for many centuries, and it is a thousand pities that in the interests of rigid uniformity we should blot them from our present system.

Mr. DIXEY

I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to show a certain amount of sympathy towards this Amendment. He must realise that this particular body was commended by the Royal Commission. He does not dispute that it is a most efficient body. They have not a river in the catchment area and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman must admit that here is an efficient body which is carrying on its work, and that it will be a weakness if you remove that efficient body which is carrying on well work which in the first place was done by private enterprise. Hon. Members behind the Minister are always in favour of State-subsidised schemes but surely he, as a practical man, must appreciate the fact that if you have a body of people who are discharging their duties in a proper way and administering their area efficiently it is in his interest and in the interest of good government that that body should remain intact.

Dr. ADDISON

If this Amendment were carried this particular body would be taken out of the Schedule, and others would apply to be taken out.

Mr. MILLS

This is a very ancient drainage board. Would it not be possible to include it in a new scheme but at the same time to allow it to retain its ancient name? There are several boards of this kind which might well be allowed to retain their old name whilst carrying on their new functions.

Dr. ADDISON

That is what I was going to say. What will happen will be that these bodies will be set up as catchment area boards, and I have no doubt that they will retain the same name. If they were set up as an internal district board in any other area, every sensible person would wish that they should retain the same name. This particular body will be in charge of a somewhat larger area and will be eligible to receive grants of assistance if required. They will become a body constituted on the same lines as other bodies and will enjoy some of their age-long privileges. I am sure that the Kent County Council and everybody else will wish to preserve the traditions and name of this autho-

rity, but that is no reason for omitting it from the Schedule.

Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL

I have some little interest in this district, for my father-in-law and mother-in-law are buried there. On archaeological grounds we should do something to preserve ancient corporations of this kind. There is no doubt that this authority has a number of charters which run back to the time of Alfred, and if it is merged in the greater authority, these charters will perhaps fall into disuse, and pass into other hands. Whether this Amendment be carried or not, the identity of this board should be preserved, and there should be some arrangement made so that the charters under which it works1should be kept alive, even though it may be subsidiary to the larger authority which will come into being. We are doing all we can day after day to maintain national monuments. If this had been a building or the ruin of an abbey, we should have protested against any interference with it. We ought to see that old institutions with charters such as this body has should not have their identity merged in a larger body, and I urge the Minister to take some steps to see that this body is kept alive and allowed to work under licence from the larger body.

Question put, "That the word Romney' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 95.

Division No. 470] AYES. [11.39 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Cape, Thomas Granville, E.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Charleton, H. C. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cra[...]g[...]e M. Chater, Daniel Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hilisbro') Church, Major A. G. Groves, Thomas E.
Alpass, J. H. Clarke, J. S. Grundy, Thomas W.
Ammon, Charles George Cluse, W. S. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Arnott, John Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Attlee, Clement Richard Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hardie, George D.
Ayles, Walter Compton, Joseph Harris, Percy A.
Barnes, Alfred John Daggar, George Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Barr, James Dalton, Hugh Haycock, A. W.
Batey, Joseph Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hayday, Arthur
Bellamy, Albert Denman, Hon. R. D. Hayes, John Henry
Benson, G. Duncan, Charles Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Ede, James Chuter Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Birkett, W. Norman Edmunds, J. E. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Herriotts, J.
Bowen, J. W. Elmley, Viscount Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)
Brockway, A. Fenner Foot, Isaac Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Bromley, J. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Hoffman, P. C.
Brooke, W. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Hopkin, Daniel
Brothers, M. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Horrabin, J. F.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Buchanan, G. Gill, T. H. Isaacs, George
Burgess, F. G. Glassey, A. E. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Calne, Derwent Hall- Gossling, A. G. Johnston, Thomas
Cameron, A. G. Gould, F. Jones, F. Llewellyn (Flint)
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Matters, L. W. Sherwood, G. H.
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Maxton, James Shield, George William
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Melville, Sir James Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Kelly, W. T. Messer, Fred Shillaker, J. F.
Kennedy, Thomas Middleton, G. Sinkinson, George
Kinley, J. Mills, J. E. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Milner, Major J. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Lathan, G. Morley, Ralph Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Law, Albert (Bolton) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Law, A. (Rosendale) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Lawrence, Susan Mort, D. L. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Moses, J. J. H. Stamford, Thomas W.
Lawson, John James Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Strauss, G. R.
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Muff, G. Sullivan, J.
Leach, W. Muggeridge, H. T. Sutton, J. E.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Murnin, Hugh Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Naylor, T. E. Thurtle, Ernest
Lees, J. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Tinker, John Joseph
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Noel Baker, P. J. Tout, W. J.
Lloyd, C. Ellis Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Townend, A. E.
Logan, David Gilbert Palln, John Henry Vaughan, D. J.
Longbottom, A. W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Viant, S. P.
Longden, F. Perry, S. F. Walker, J.
Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wallace, H. W.
Lunn, William Picton-Turbervill, Edith Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Potts, John S. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Pybus, Percy John Wellock, Wilfred
McElwee, A. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Welsh, James (Paisley)
McEntee, V. L. Raynes, W. R. West, F. R.
McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Richards, R. Westwood, Joseph
McKinlay, A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
MacLaren, Andrew Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Ritson, J. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
McShane, John James Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Mender, Geoffrey le M. Romeril, H. G. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Mansfield, W. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Marcus, M. Rowson, Guy Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Markham, S. F. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Wise, E. F.
Marley, J. Sanders, W. S.
Marshall, Fred Sawyer, G. F. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mathers, George Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel Ganzoni, Sir John Rathbone, Eleanor
Ashley, Lt.-col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Asks, Sir Robert Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Atholl, Duchess of Gray, Milner Salmon, Major I.
Balniel, Lord Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bird, Ernest Roy Gunston, Captain D. W. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Blindell, James Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hammersley, S. S. Savery, S. S.
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hanbury, C. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Boyce, H. L. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Smithers, Waldron
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hartington, Marquess of Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Haslam, Henry C. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Butler, F. A. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Carver, Major W. H. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Thomson, Sir F.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,s.) Knox, Sir Alfred Tinne, J. A.
Chadwick, Capt, Sir Robert Burton Lamb, Sir J. Q. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Colfox, Major William Philip Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Todd, Capt. A. J.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Train, J.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Llewellin, Major J. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Margesson, Captain H. D. Ward, Lieut.-Col, Sir A. Lambert
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Wardlaw-Mline, J. S.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Mond, Hon. Henry Warrender, Sir Victor
Davies, Dr. Vernon Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Wells, Sydney R.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovil) Muirhead, A. J. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Edmondson, Major A. J. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Everard, W. Lindsay Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Womersley, W. J.
Fermoy, Lord Owen, H. F. (Hereford)
Fielden, E. B. Penny, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Sir William Wayland and Mr. Dixey.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Ramsbotham, H.

Amendment made: In page 72, line 17, column 2, after the word "Romney," insert the word "and."—[Dr. Addison.]

Mr. HASLAM

I beg to move, in page 72, line 31, column 2, to leave out the words "and Steeping River." I cannot see why this river should be included in the Schedule. I base my case on simple natural justice, because there is no reason why the people living in the area of the Steeping River should have to bear any share of the cost of the upkeep of the Witham. These rivers are 20 miles apart, and the problems confronting the drainage of the River Witham are different from those confronting the Steeping River. I think it is most unfair that the people living in the Steeping River area should be brought into the adjoining area, with the result that they will be rated with the people living in the Witham River area. There is but small connection between the two and the area of the Steeping is separated from the uplands of the Witham. The principle of the Bill is that the people in the area of a main river should contribute to the upkeep of that river. To take two rivers, somewhat unequal, and to lump them together is an entire violation of that principle. There is all the more reason for opposing it, because it was not put into the original Bill, nor was it put in in another place, as it might have been. It was inserted in the last days of the Committee stage, and no opportunity has been given to the people concerned properly to consider the matter; otherwise, I would rather have moved this Amendment in Committee.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I beg to second the Amendment.

This is a fore-taste of what will be apparent when the country realises what the Bill contains. It may be a small foretaste, but it is one which will be soon found out by the people concerned, who will have to be rather heavily rated. It is bad luck for the riparians of this comparatively small river.

Dr. ADDISON

The hon. Member who moved the Amendment has conjured up much indignation, but I cannot imagine what the reasons for it are. Why should it be an injustice for the inhabitants along a river to be associated with their neighbours? I cannot see anything unjust about it, or any hardship. They are neighbours and will continue to be neighbours. I hope they will continue to be treated as neighbours and will be enabled thereby to get any assistance which the State may have to offer. I cannot see where the injustice comes in.

Major GEORGE DAVIES

I think the Minister's explanation is entirely unsatisfactory. It is very satisfactory to him no doubt to say that these people have been neighbours and will continue to be neighbours, but the Bill does not simply allow them to go on being neighbours but it makes them go through a marriage ceremony in which the husband is to be responsible for the debts of his wife. That may be provided for in the Finance Bill, but it is not an adequate explanation for the objections put forward. It may be true that my hon. Friend is labouring under a misapprehension and that, as a matter of fact, the rates on the one area will not be the burden which it has been suggested, but, if that be so, the Minister has not explained it. I think we are entitled to know whether the joining together of neighbours in holy matrimony is actually going to mean that a burden of rates is going to be imposed which is unjustifiable.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 185; Noes, 93.

Division No. 471.] AYES. [11.59 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bentham, Dr. Ethel Church, Major A. G.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Clarke, J. S.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bowen, J. W. Cluse, W. S.
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M. Brockway, A. Fenner Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bromley, J. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Alpass, J. H. Brooke, W. Compton, Joseph
Ammon, Charles George Brothers, M. Daggar, George
Arnott, John Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Dalton, Hugh
Attlee, Clement Richard Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Barnes, Alfred John Buchanan, G. Denman, Hon, R. D.
Barr, James Burgess, F. G. Duncan, Charles
Batey, Joseph Caine, Derwent Hall- Ede, James Chuter
Bellamy, Albert Cameron, A. G. Edmunds, J. E.
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Edwards, E.(Morpeth)
Benson, G. Charleton, H. C. Foot, Isaac
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lloyd, C. Ellis Ritson, J.
Gibbins, Joseph Logan, David Gilbert Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich)
Gibson, H. M. (Lance, Mossley) Longbottom, A. W. Romeril, H. G.
Gill, T. H. Longden, F. Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Gossling, A. G. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Rowson, Guy
Gould, F. Lunn, William Samuel, H. Waiter (Swansea, West)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Sanders, W. S.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sawyer, G. F.
Groves, Thomas E. McElwee, A. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Grundy, Thomas W. McEntee, V. L. Sherwood, G. H.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Shield, George William
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) McKinley, A. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Hardie, George D. Mac Laren, Andrew Shillaker, J. F.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville McShane, John James Sinkinson, George
Haycock, A. W. Mander, Geoffrey le M. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Hayday, Arthur Mansfield, W. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Hayes, John Henry Marcus, M. Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Marley, J. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Marshall, Fred Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Mathers, George Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Herriotts, J. Matters, L. W. Stamford, Thomas W.
Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth) Maxton, James Strauss, G. R.
Hoffman, P. C. Melville, Sir James Sullivan, J.
Hopkin, Daniel Messer, Fred Sutton, J. E.
Horrabin, J. F. Milner, Major J. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Morley, Ralph Thurtle, Ernest
Isaacs, George Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Tinker, John Joseph
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Tout, W. J.
Johnston, Thomas Mort, D. L. Vaughan, D. J.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Moses, J. J. H. Walker, J.
Jewett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Wallace, H. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Muff, G. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Kelly, W. T. Murnin, Hugh Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Kennedy, Thomas Naylor, T. E. Wellock, Wilfred
Kinley, J. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Welsh, James (Paisley)
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Noel Baker, P. J. Westwood, Joseph
Lathan, G. Oldfield, J. R. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Law, Albert (Bolton) Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Law, A. (Rosendale) Palln, John Henry Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Lawrence, Susan Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Perry, S. F. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Lawson, John James Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Winterton, G. E.(Leicester-Loughb'gh)
Leach, W. Potts, John S. Wise, E. F.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Rathbone, Eleanor
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Richards, R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Lees, J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel. Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Pybus, Percy John
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Glassey, A. E. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Aske, Sir Robert Granville, E. Ramsbotham, H.
Balniel, Lord Gray, Milner Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Bird, Ernest Roy Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Blindell, James Gunston, Captain D. W. Salmon, Major I.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hanbury, C. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Bracken, B. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Harris, Percy A. Savery, S. S.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hartington, Marquess of Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Smithers, Waldron
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Butler, R. A. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Carver, Major W. H. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) Jones, F. Llewellyn (Flint) Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton Knox, Sir Alfred Thomson, Sir F.
Colfox, Major William Philip Lamb, Sir J. Q. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Llewellin, Major J. J. Train, J.
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Margesson, Captain H. D. Turton, Robert Hugh
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Mond, Hon. Henry Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Dixey, A. C. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Warrender, Sir Victor
Edmondson, Major A. J. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Elmley, Viscount Muirhead, A. J. Wayland, Sir William A.
Everard, W. Lindsay Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Wells, Sydney R.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Fielden, E. B. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Womersley, W. J.
Ganzoni, Sir John Owen, H. F. (Hereford)
Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Penny, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Mr. Haslam and Lieut.-Colonel Heneage.
Dr. ADDISON

I beg to move, in page 73, to leave out lines 23 to 27.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

Why does the right hon. Gentleman propose to leave out these words? What does he propose to do instead? What penalties is he going to substitute? We certainly want an explanation. It must be more than a drafting Amendment.

Dr. ADDISON

There was a consensus of opinion in the Committee and now that these boards have become elected boards, the power vested in the Minister is not appropriate. We think, therefore, that this matter ought to come under the same rule.

Amendment agreed to.