HC Deb 28 July 1930 vol 242 cc85-95
Mr. W. R. SMITH

I beg to move, in page 5, line 17, at the end, to insert the words: or in the case of Commissoners of Sewers who exercise jurisdiction partly within and partly without the catchment area, the abrogation of the powers of those commissioners within the catchment area. This Amendment is to meet the point, which was raised in Committee, where an existing drainage authority may be dealing with land which is partly within and partly without a catchment area. The question arose as to how such a situation could be dealt with. This makes due provision to meet the case, whereby the land outside the catchment area will be dealt with either by an internal board, or as the circumstances of the case warrant. At any rate, this Amendment meets the point which was raised in Committee.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I presume that this is suggested in order to meet the case of Lincolnshire. Is the Minister satisfied that the truncated line of sewers on the north-east coast of Lincolnshire which are not in the catchment area will be able to function? I doubt it very much. There is still time for the Minister to look into the matter before the Bill goes to the House of Lords.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 5, line 36, leave out the words "for altering or supplementing in any respect," and insert instead thereof the words: "the making of alterations in and the addition of supplemental provisions to."—[Dr. Addison.]

Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

I beg to move, in page 6, line 12, to leave out the word "and."

The object of this Amendment is to make it an obligation on the catchment board to send copies of any schemes which they may make to all the authorities concerned. In Sub-section (2) it provides that copies of the scheme shall be sent to the council of every county and county borough, etc., but there are other authorities to be considered. There are the urban districts, the non-county boroughs, and the rural districts. It is curious that when the Minister wishes these smaller bodies to do something for him, he provides that they shall be considered, as in Clause 6 (4), where the urban districts are taken notice of. I submit that the sending of copies of schemes to these additional bodies would involve very little additional expense or trouble.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

I beg to second the Amendment.

It does seem that once again the Ministry have gone out of their way to leave out the urban and rural districts. They mention here every kind of authority—drainage boards, navigation authorities, highway authorities and conservancy authorities. They take in the whole of these authorities—all very important authorities in connection with drainage matters, as, indeed, are the county councils and county boroughs; but you are dependent, on these occasions, in the matter of these consultations, on the good will of the whole of the local authorities. For that reason, I do think that, in common fairness, on occasions such as these the Ministry might consult these bodies, who are comparatively small bodies compared with the county authorities, but who are very often the key authorities in many of these cases. For that reason, unless the Ministry has some overwhelming reason for not taking in these authorities, it is only just to take them in. I think that the Ministry will have to have a very strong case before it can justify their exclusion.

May I be allowed to say one more word about this particular point? There have been several instances when these two particular authorities—the urban district council and the rural district council—have been omitted on various occasions. It seems to be part of the policy of certain Departments. I would ask the various Departments concerned whether they cannot now dispense with the system of squeezing out these very valuable local authorities, which do very good work. If they reversed their present procedure, and took in these bodies, it would add enormously to the value of the work which might be undertaken.

Dr. ADDISON

If we were to impose upon the catchment board the duty of sending particulars of every scheme to every authority in the whole of their area, it would be imposing upon them an unnecessary and a wasteful obligation. For example, take the catchment area of the River Trent which includes vast numbers of authorities, urban and rural, as well as a number of county boroughs. Under this Amendment the Board would have to send to all those bodies particulars of all schemes, although it might be that a particular scheme did not concern more than one of them. It is laid down that particulars of all schemes are to be published in various newspapers, and in many other ways, in order to ensure a very wide publicity, and that those who are concerned are made fully acquainted with the whole matter. I think therefore it would be an entire waste of effort on the part of the catchment board to have to send these elaborate details to every authority in the area, many of whom may not be concerned at all.

Mr. BLINDELL

I hope that the Minister has not said his last word on this particular Amendment. Although it is true that the non-county boroughs and the urban district councils will he represented through the county councils, surely when a large scheme is prepared, it would not be a wasteful extravagance to have one or two extra copies made and sent to the authorities within the catchment area. I represent a district in which there is a non-county borough and several very large urban district councils. They will be called upon to find a fair sum of money in order to meet, the payment for these schemes. It would be an act of courtesy if the Minister were to accept this Amendment, so that all those authorities might receive copies of the scheme. It might prove an easier way to get them to agree to schemes if they were consulted; they would feel that they had a stake in the scheme and a word to say upon it. After all, the scheme is only sent to them for their consideration; there is no power given them to alter the scheme or even to make recommendations for the altering of the Scheme. It would be a mere act of courtesy to send to them copies of any schemes which were being prepared, so that they might have first-hand information as to what was being propounded. I do ask the Minister to reconsider his decision and accept this Amendment, unless he can give some real, definite example of where it would work to the disadvantage of the whole scheme of the Bill. Personally, I feel he would be well advised to accept this Amendment, because it would be an act of courtesy to these local authorities, which they would highly appreciate.

Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

The Minister said it would involve great trouble and expense to send notices to all the authorities in a catchment area. Surely that is very much restricted by the words "affected thereby"? I would also ask him whether it is not the case that, in very many instances, the smaller authority may be more greatly affected than the county borough. I would appeal to him to reconsider his decision, and accept the Amendment.

Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN

The Minister of Agriculture, I think, rather exaggerates the difficulty of providing these smaller drainage boards with this information. It is quite easy, and without very much additional expense, for them to be notified of any change which it is proposed to make in the drainage of their areas, and a concession of this nature would make a great deal of difference to the smooth working of the Measure. If these local authorities oppose instead of help any proposal, it will increase the difficulties. The great thing is to keep them in a good mood, and if they are not notified of any change it is quite probable that they may oppose the scheme. The Amendment may make a great deal of difference to the smooth working of the Bill, and in that case it is well worth the small extra amount of money which is entailed.

Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON

May I make a further appeal to the Minister of Agriculture to reconsider this proposal? It is not only the smaller authorities which may be affected, but in some cases authorities of considerable standing. In the case of the borough I have the honour to represent, they will be called upon to pay no less than three-quarters of any rate levied upon the county as a whole, and, therefore, I think they are properly entitled, as a very responsible body, to receive this notice.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

The Minister of Agriculture sems to be making a mountain out of a molehill. The number of these extra notices would not be very large, and a halfpenny stamp does not cost very much. It is a matter of courtesy that smaller authorities should receive this notice.

Dr. ADDISON

I have no desire to be discourteous to any authority; at the same time, hon. Members seem to be under a misapprehension as to the nature of the scheme. It is not a scheme for works upon which a large sum of money is to be spent, but a scheme for the reorganisation of internal drainage authorities in catchment areas, and the Clause provides that all the drainage authorities which are affected shall have notice of the scheme. They are already provided for. It seems to me that by the Amendment we are asking these bodies to incur a gross waste of expen- diture if we put upon them the obligation to send the full details of these complicated schemes, affecting only one or two drainage authorities in the area, to every rural district wherever it may be situated. I am prepared to accept an alteration in the Amendment to this effect—to insert the words "which are affected," thus making it an obligation for the catchment board to send copies to the authorities which are affected.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Surely the words "affected thereby," which already appear in this Sub-section, carry out the same thing as is now suggested by the Minister of Agriculture? The Amendment does not mean that an area in Devon shall be consulted about an area in the Wash.

Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will kindly repeat the words he proposes to insert in my Amendment.

Dr. ADDISON

I suggest that the words "which are affected" should be added.

Mr. BLINDELL rose—

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Mr. Robert Young)

The hon. Member has already spoken on this Amendment.

Mr. BLINDELL

Do I understand that having spoken once I cannot speak again on this proposal?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

This is the Report stage.

Mr. BLINDELL

I want to ask a question. The Amendment only refers to authorities which are affected.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER

If the Minister of Agriculture is going to accept the Amendment with an alteration perhaps he will let me have it so that I can put it from the Chair.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

We do not want the Amendment negatived if we are going to get a concession from the Minister of Agriculture, and I hope, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you will exercise [...] little patience and give the Minister a little time in order to write out the Amendment, as this is a rather unusual proceeding. The affected local authorities would be within the catchment area, and that is the intention of the Amendment. It may be necessary to insert the words "authorities which are affected," in order to make the position clear.

Mr. DENMAN

It seems to me that the words of the Amendment carry out the intention of the Minister of Agriculture, and, if that be so, the simplest procedure would be to accept the Amendment and then have the matter put right in another place, if it is found that the words do not carry out the intention of the House.

Dr. ADDISON

I am willing to accept the Amendment on that understanding.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 6, line 12, after the word "borough," insert the words "and district."—[Mr. A. Somerville.]

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I beg to move, in page 6, line 33, at the end, to insert the words: (5) Catchment Boards may, with the assent of the Minister and local authorities and for purposes of simplification of administration, or where the geographical boundaries are difficult to define, make an agreement with the neighbouring Catchment Boards or, where there is no Catchment Board, with a drainage board for mutual adjustment of boundaries notwithstanding the exact geographical catchment area as defined by survey. It is rather remarkable that while drainage boards within a catchment area can make mutual arrangements it is not possible for a catchment board to make mutual arrangements with an adjoining catchment board. The Amendment makes it possible for such an arrangement to be made with an adjoining area which is not a catchment area but which may have a drainage board. Let me give the Minister of Agriculture an example of the difficulties we find in Lincolnshire. In the Fen country the levels are particularly small, a difference of a few inches will spread over hundreds of yards, and it is hard to say where the catchment area goes. The levels are so curious that in one place where the drainage ran north and south and there was an objection, it was made to run south and north over a distance of four miles by a slight alteration in the levels. There is no power in this Bill to allow a catchment board to do that kind of thing; and it would be a great conve- nience to some authorities. The Minister will have a great deal of trouble in the case of a large catchment area like that of the Trent. It may be possible to divide it in half and make two authorities. This Amendment will give the necessary authority.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to second the Amendment.

This is not compulsory, it is simply voluntary, and will make the Bill much easier to work.

Mr. HASLAM

I should like to support the Amendment. The Minister of Agriculture in Committee indicated that the definition of these areas was mainly a matter for engineers; that it was chiefly a geographical question. That is not the case, especially in some of the very flat areas, because it is impossible to say that at any particular point the water on one side will go one way and the water on the other side will go the other way. Consequently, there may be quite a large area which may be the subject of dispute, and it is only reasonable that in cases like that other considerations should be taken into account besides the opinion of an engineer. There is the question of the existing practice and also that of administrative convenience. I have an Amendment later on the Paper dealing with this point, but I think this is the best place to raise the matter, and I hope that the Minister will accept the Amendment and leave it open to the various authorities to come to an agreement among themselves where it is not possible to draw a definite line.

Mr. W. R. SMITH

I am sorry that the Government are unable to accept this Amendment. Its effect is much more far-reaching than is supposed by the hon. and gallant Member for Lindsey (Lieut.- Colonel Heneage). In my judgment to accept this Amendment would lead to a very difficult position, and to very far-reaching consequences if we began to interfere with the coundaries of the catchment areas. It would have very serious effects upon questions of rating and voting. I do not think there is any great difficulty in determining, from an engineering point of view, where these boundaries are. There are, of course, cases where the natural flow of water has been disturbed by the construction of artificial works. Provision has already been made to meet that point by the Amendment which was moved earlier on. I think that is as far as it is desirable to go in varying the boundaries of the catchment areas.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 111; Noes, 227.

Division No. 463.] AYES. [5.34 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l.,W.) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Ross, Major Ronald D.
Ashley, Lt-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Gower, Sir Robert Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Aske, Sir Robert Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Atholl, Duchess of Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Salmon, Major I.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Gunston, Captain D. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Berry, Sir George Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Betterton, Sir Henry B. Hanbury, C. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Savery, S. S.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Haslam, Henry C. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Buckingham, Sir H. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Butler, R. A. Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Knox, Sir Alfred Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Naire)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Thomson, Sir F.
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Tinne. J. A.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Makins, Brigadier-General E. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Colfox, Major William Philip Margesson, Captain H. D. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Colville, Major D. J. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Turton, Robert Hugh
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Cranborne, Viscount Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Ward, Lieut.-Col. sir A. Lambert
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Warrender, Sir Victor
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Wayland, Sir William A.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wells, Sydney R.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil) Muirhead, A. J. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Withers, Sir John James
Eden, Captain Anthony Peake, Captain Osbert Womersley, W. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Pilditch, Sir Philip Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Everard, W. Lindsay Ramsbotham, H. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Reld, David D. (County Down)
Fermoy, Lord Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Ford, Sir P. J. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) Captain Sir George Bowyer and
Sir George Penny.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Grenfell, D. R(Glamorgan)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Charleton, H. C. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middesbro' W.)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Chater, Daniel Groves, Thomas E.
Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Church, Major A. G. Grundy, Thomas W.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Cluse, W. S. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Alpass, J. H. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Ammon, Charles George Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Arnott, John Compton, Joseph Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Attlee, Clement Richard Cove, William G. Hardle, George D.
Ayles, Walter Cowan, D. M. Harris, Percy A.
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Daggar, George Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Dalton, Hugh Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Barnes, Alfred John Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Haycock, A. W.
Barr, James Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hayday, Arthur
Batey, Joseph Day, Harry Hayes, John Henry
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Denman, Hon. R. D. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Bellamy, Albert Ede, James Chuter Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Edmunds, J. E. Herriotts, J.
Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth)
Benson, G. Eimley, Viscount Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Foot, Isaac Hoffman, P. C.
Blindell, James Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, upton) Hopkin, Daniel
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Horrabin, J. F.
Bowen, J. W. Gibbins, Joseph Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Broad, Francis Alfred Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Brockway, A. Fenner Gill, T. H. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Brooke, W. Gillett, George M. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Brothers, M. Glassey, A. E. Johnston, Thomas
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Gossling, A. G. Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Gould, F. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Burgess, F. G. Granville, E. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Gray, Milner Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Cameron, A. G. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey. Rotherhithe)
Kelly, W. T. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Kennedy, Thomas Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Kinley, J. Mort, D. L. Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molten) Muff, G. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Muggeridge, H. T. Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Lathan, G. Murnin, Hugh Snell, Harry
Law, Albert (Bolton) Naylor, T. E. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Law, A. (Rosendale) Noel Baker, P. J. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Lawrence, Susan Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Sorensen, R.
Lawson, John James Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Stamford, Thomas W.
Lawther, W.(Barnard Castle) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Strauss, G. R
Leach, W. Palin, John Henry Sullivan, J
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Palmer, E. T. Sutton, J. E.
Lees, J. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Perry, S. F. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Lloyd, C. Ellis Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Thurtle, Ernest
Logan, David Gilbert Phillips, Dr. Marion Tinker, John Joseph
Longbottom, A. W. Picton-Turbervill, Edith Townend, A. E.
Longden, F. Pole, Major D. G. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Potts, John S. Vaughan, D. J.
Lowth, Thomas Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Viant, S. P.
Lunn, William Raynes, W. R. Walkden, A. G.
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Richards, R. Walker, J.
McElwee, A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wallace, H. W.
McEntee, V. L. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wallhead, Richard C.
McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Ritson, J. Watkins, F. C.
MacLaren, Andrew Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Romeril, H. G. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Rowson, Guy Wellock, Wilfred
McShane, John James Salter, Dr. Alfred Welsh, James (Paisley)
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) West, F. R.
March, S. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Westwood, Joseph
Markham, S. F. Sanders, W. S. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Marshall, Fred Sawyer, G. F. Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Mathers, George Scott, James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Matters, L. W. Sexton, James Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Messer, Fred Shaw Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Middleton, G. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Mills, J. E. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wise, E. F.
Milner, Major J. Shillaker, J. F.
Montague, Frederick Shinwell, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Morley, Ralph Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.
Morris, Rhys Hopkins Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)