HC Deb 28 July 1930 vol 242 cc110-31
Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, in page 18, line 38, at the end, to insert the words: (2) A Catchment Board shall, before incurring any expenses under this Act, pre- pare, either annually or otherwise, as they may think fit, and submit to the council of every county and county borough the whole or any part of the area of which is within the catchment area an estimate of such expenses, and any such council, if aggrieved by the estimate either on the ground that it is excessive or that the works to which it relates are unnecessary may, within six weeks after the date on which the estimate has been received by the council, appeal to the Minister against the estimate, and the Minister may, after considering any objections made to him, and, if he thinks fit, holding a local public inquiry, make such an order in the matter as he thinks just, and his decision shall be final. Under the Bill as it stands, the catchment boards can make any plans they like, and put large expense on the county councils. We must remember that the catchment boards are not elective bodies, but bodies set up by the county councils, and although the county councils will be represented, they will have very little representation. These boards can put a large rate on to the county councils without the councils knowing what it is for, or having any chance of objecting. These words will give the county councils the right to appeal to the Minister, and will make it necessary for the catchment boards to inform the county councils before any expenses are incurred.

Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN

I beg to second the Amendment.

The county councils are responsible for raising the money and the catchment boards simply precept on them. It is very natural that the county councils would like to have some information as to how much they are going to be asked to subscribe to the boards, and it is only fair that they should know. This Amendment will enable them, before they are asked for the money, and before the plans are put into operation, to know what the catchment boards propose to do. The county councils are now put in the position of not knowing what the plans are, or how much money they are to be asked to raise. One begins to wonder whether this is a drainage Bill at all, and whether it is not an unemployment Bill. It seems to me that these new catchment area boards can employ people without thinking of the question of payment, and without any check from the county councils. For the sake of finding employment they can foist on the area schemes which are not sound and really not drainage schemes at all. The County Councils' Association have seen the Minister's new Clause dealing with this point, but they are not satisfied, and they wish this new sub-section to be inserted as a further limitation and in order that councils may have some information as to the expenditure which they are likely to have to meet.

Dr. ADDISON

I agree that all the authorities concerned ought to know what it is that a catchment area board is proposing to do, but I suggest that the provisions already in the Bill give generous opportunities for them to be informed. This Amendment would treat a catchment area board as though it were an irresponsible body. As a matter of fact two-thirds of its members are to be representative of the county councils and county boroughs in the area, and we may fairly assume that they will be sensible people; and the same observation applies to the representatives of the internal drainage board. If this Amendment were accepted, before a catchment board could do anything they would have to send to the constituent councils an estimate of the expenditure, give six weeks' notice, and all the rest of it. That is not treating the board as a businesslike body. If we wish them to do their work we must not hamper them at every step even before they start. This Amendment would make their work impossible. In order to secure that catchment boards do not spend too much or too rashly I brought up a new Clause in Committee, and it now appears as Clause 56. That Clause does limit the expenditure which a catchment area board can incur without a public inquiry. Further, Sub-section (5) of Clause 21 provides an opportunity for a council to appeal to the Minister if they think too much is being demanded of them, and the Minister can order an inquiry, and I think that is sufficient.

Sir E. SHEPPERSON

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3, after the words "county borough," to insert the words "and internal drainage districts."

The purpose of the original Amendment is to secure that the county councils, who have to find the money for the activities of the catchment board, shall know what those activities are likely to be; and if that is thought to be essential in the case of county councils I submit that it is even more important that internal drainage dis- tricts should also be placed in a position to know what their expenditure is likely to be.

Mr. SPEAKER

As no one seconds the Amendment of the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson), it cannot be proceeded with.

Sir J. LAMB

I wish to support the original Amendment. Anyone who has had any experience of the work of county councils knows the difficulty they have in budgeting, and how important it is that they should know what charges are likely to be placed upon them when they are considering their financial plans, and the rates which they will have to levy. This proposal accords with the action taken by Government Departments, which are saying to county councils: "You must budget beforehand, so that we may know the amount of grant we shall have to pay you." In the same way county councils should have some pre-knowledge of the calls likely to be made upon them, in order that they may so adjust their rates as to avoid unnecessarily heavy burdens being placed upon the ratepayers at any particular period and in respect of one particular object, to the detriment, possibly, of other obligations for which they have to provide.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I have put down a similar Amendment on the next Clause, and perhaps I may put forward my points on this Amendment. The House will be puzzled to understand the differences over this Bill. The hon. Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) and I look at it from entirely opposite points of view. Here is certain work to be done, work which is more or less useful, and the question is, Who is to pay for it? The hon. Member says the ratepayers at large ought to pay for it. I say that the internal drainage boards, which in the past have collected this money as an owners' rate from the people who benefit from the expenditure, ought to pay. That is the fundamental difference between them. This Bill is introduced because, in certain places, people have refused to pay these rates; we are coming upon ratepayers who do not directly benefit from the expenditure of money on drainage. The question is, Ought these catchment boards, which have the power to say how the money shall be spent, operate without consulting the bodies which have to find the money, namely, the county councils and the county borough councils? I take it this Amendment is directed towards securing a consultation between the catchment area boards when they have decided on the schemes to be undertaken and the authorities who have to pay, and that seems to be a reasonable suggestion. The Minister has told us that he wants experts on the catchment boards, people who know something about the job. That is all the more reason why the boards should consult with the ordinary representatives of the ratepayers before a scheme is put into operation. The incentive of a specialist board is to spend money, and the incentive of a county council is to stop the money being spent. We have to harmonise the two points of view, and I suggest that it can best be done by some sort of pre-consultation before schemes are put through.

Let me take the case of Staffordshire. Suppose the Trent Catchment Area Board, which embraces, perhaps, a dozen counties, decides that the best thing to do is to spend money on the lower river. I think it would be desirable in the public interest that they should consult with the Staffordshire County Council, which has got to find the money for this scheme, which is not benefiting them, in order, it may be, to show that the next scheme may be one for the upper Trent. Otherwise, there will be among the ratepayers in Staffordshire the bitterest feeling at having an additional rate which may be 3d. in the £, put upon them for canalising the lower Trent. It would make the Bill much more tolerable to the people who have to find the money if they felt they had some voice in saving how much was to be spent. My right hon. Friend will say that the county council of Staffordshire will be represented, that it will have at least one representative on the catchment board. But what is one representative among the representatives of all the other county boroughs and counties and internal drainage boards? The voice of that representative may be disregarded. If consultation has to take place it will be a check upon expenditure for the benefit of one district for which another district has to pay. The Amendment may make the Bill much more tolerable to the people who have to pay, and in the long run the Government and the Labour party will find it extremely serious if the people who have to pay do not approve of the way in which the money is spent.

Mr. WELLS

I wish to support the Amendment, and I agree very much with what the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) has said. We are placing financial burdens on county councils without giving them any opportunity of saying whether they wish the money spent or not. I would like to examine for a moment perhaps the only scheme which is in being to-day. It is, I suppose, a scheme which will be put into force as soon as the Bill becomes law, and it involves an expenditure of £4,000,000 at the mouth of the Ouse, of course, spread over a term of years. If the catchment board do not agree to the expenditure they will be called to order by the Minister, who has full power to say that they shall carry out the work. That scheme will impose a tremendous obligation on the county councils in the area, because a rate of one halfpenny over the whole of the catchment area raises only £6,200. We must have regard to the immense financial burdens which are going to be cast on county councils and county boroughs. If we had any limitation, if there were any appeals to a tribunal, that might relieve our fears, but as the Bill stands to-day the Minister is the final arbiter of how much money is to be spent. All we ask is that the county councils should know what is being done by the catchment board. The work will never be carried through if it is undertaken in the teeth of the disapproval of every local authority. There must be some agreement, and this Amendment is one means of getting agreement.

Sir W. WAYLAND

I am afraid that I cannot support this Amendment. Supposing, for example, that a sea wall were broken down suddenly. The responsible authority could not budget for that. It would mean that all the different drain.

age authorities would have to budget in advance, and submit their budgets to the various county councils. I do not see how that is possible. One of the weaknesses of this Bill is that it embraces all sea defences. I do not mean erosion, but defences against storms and such defences as those which are necessary in districts like Romney Marsh. If the county council were called upon to provide a defence in that case, the work would have to be started at once, and it would be impossible to submit an estimate to the county councils. For these reasons, I cannot support the Amendment.

Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

This Amendment has been brought before the House at the instance of the County Councils' Association, and they support it for the same reason that the Minister of Agriculture has opposed it. I know hon. Members want the catchment boards to get on with the job, but we wish to place a very real check upon this kind of expenditure. We suggest that catchment boards might make an estimate for three succeeding years. There is a precedent for this course in the case of education authorities, where the Board of Education require the education authorities to make estimates for three years. When we consider the catchment boards rates all over the country, it is evident that the aggregate sum will come to a very large amount, and therefore it is not unreasonable to ask for the check on such expenditure which is provided in this Estimate. We want to know how much money will have to be provided in the case of the Thames Valley. We are all aware that at the present time the urgent need is rigid and strict economy—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] This Amendment affords an opportunity to place a reasonable check on expenditure, and I trust that the Minister of Agriculture will agree to accept it.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 131; Noes, 229.

Division No. 465.] AYES. [6.51 p.m.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Birkett. W. Norman Buckingham, Sir H.
Atholl, Duchess of Blindell, James Burton, Colonel H. W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Butler, R. A.
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Berry, Sir George Boyce, H. L. Carver, Major W. H.
Bird, Ernest Roy Brass, Captain Sir William Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ramsbotham, H.
Christle, J. A. Haslam, Henry C. Reid, David D. (County Down)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.
Colfox, Major William Phillp Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Colville, Major D. J. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Cranborne, Viscount Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Ross, Major Ronald D.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Hurd, Percy A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Groom-Johnson, R. P. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Salmon, Major I.
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Knox, Sir Alfred Savery, S. S.
Duckworth, G. A. V. Lamb, Sir J. O. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Eden, Captain Anthony Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Elmley, Viscount Lymington, Viscount Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
England, Colonel A. Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W' morland)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Everard, W. Lindsay Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Tinne, J. A.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Fermoy, Lord Margesson, Captain H. D. Train, J.
Fielden, E. B. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Ford, Sir P. J. Meller, R. J. Turton, Robert Hugh
Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Warrender, Sir Victor
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Glassey, A. E. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Gower, Sir Robert Morris, Rhys Hopkins Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Granville, E. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Wells, Sydney R.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Muirhead, A. J. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Gray. Milner Nathan, Major H. L. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Withers, Sir John James
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. Jonn Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Womersley, W. J.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Owen, H. F. (Hereford)
Gunston, Captain D. W. Penny, Sir George TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte and
Hanbury, C. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Brigadier-General Clifton Brown.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Cluse, W. S. Hayes, John Henry
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Cocks, Frederick Seymour Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Herriotts, J.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Compton, Joseph Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)
Alpass, J. H. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Ammon, Charles George Cove, William G. Hoffman, P. C.
Arnott, John Cowan, D. M. Hopkin, Daniel
Asks, Sir Robert Daggar, George Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Attlee, Clement Richard Dalton, Hugh Horrabin, J. F.
Ayles, Walter Davies, Dr. Vernon Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Day, Harry Johnston, Thomas
Barnes, Alfred John Denman, Hon. R. D. Jones, F. Llewellyn. (Flint)
Barr, James Duncan, Charles Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Batey, Joseph Ede, James Chuter Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne)
Bellamy, Albert Edmunds, J. E. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Kelly, W. T.
Benson, G. Elliot, Major Walter E. Kennedy, Thomas
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Foot, Isaac Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Kinley, J.
Bowen, J. W. Gibbins, Joseph Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Lathan, G.
Broad, Francis Alfred Gill, T. H. Law, Albert (Bolton)
Brockway, A. Fenner Gillett, George M. Law, A. (Rossendale)
Bromley. J. Gossling, A. G. Lawrence, Susan
Brooke, W. Gould, F. Lawson, John James
Brothers, M. Greenwood, Rt Hon. A. (Colne). Leach, W.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Groves, Thomas E. Lees, J.
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Grundy, Thomas W. Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Buchanan, G. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Lloyd, C. Ellis
Burgess, F. G. Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Logan, David Gilbert
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Longbottom, A. W.
Cameron, A. G. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Longden, F.
Cape, Thomas Hardie, George D. Lovat-Fraser, J. A.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Harris, Percy A. Lowth, Thomas
Charleton, H. C. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Lunn, William
Chater, Daniel Hastings, Dr. Somerville MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Church, Major A. G. Haycock, A. W. McElwee, A.
Clarke, J. S. Hayday, Arthur McEntee, V. L.
McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Pole, Major D. G. Sorensen, R.
McKinlay, A. Potts, John S. Stamford, Thomas W.
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Rathbone, Eleanor Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Richards, R. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Strauss, G. R.
McShane, John James Riley, F. F. (Stockton[...]on-Tees) Sullivan, J.
March, S. Ritson, J. Sutton, J. E.
Marcus, M. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Markham, S. F. Romeril, H. G. Thorne. W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Marshall, Fred Rosbotham, D. S. T. Thurtle, Ernest
Mathers, George Salter, Dr. Alfred Tinker, John Joseph
Matters, L. W. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) Townend, A. E.
Melville, Sir James Sanders, W. S. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Messer, Fred Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. Vaughan, D. J.
Middleton, G. Sawyer, G. F. Viant, S. P.
Mills, J. E. Scurr, John Walkden, A. G.
Milner, Major J. Sexton, James Walker, J.
Morley, Ralph Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Wallhead, Richard C.
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor
Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Shiels, Dr. Drummond Watkins, F. C.
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Shillaker, J. F. Wayland, Sir William A.
Mort, D. L. Shinwell, E. Wellock, Wilfred
Muff, G. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Welsh, James (Paisley)
Muggeridge, H. T. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John West, F. R.
Murnin, Hugh Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) Westwood, Joseph
Noel Baker, P. J. Sinkinson, George Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladyweod)
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Pelln, John Henry Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Paling, Wilfrid Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Palmer, E. T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Winterton, G. E. (Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Perry, S. F. Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Wise, E. F.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Snell, Harry
Phillips, Dr. Marion Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Picton-Turbervill, Edith Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. William Whiteley.
Mr. SPEAKER

Lieut. - Colonel Heneage !

Colonel WEDGWOOD

On a point of Order. Are you not accepting either of my Amendments—(1) in page 18, line 41, to leave out from the word "the," to the end of the Sub-section, and to insert instead thereof the words "annual values thereof as hereinafter defined," and (2) in page 19, line 15, to leave out the word "rateable," and to insert instead thereof the word "annual"?

Mr. SPEAKER

I do not select them.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

These are very important Amendments which decide what the incidence of the rate is to be in different areas, and I submit that that is one of the things which ought to be discussed by the House.

Mr. SPEAKER

That may be so, but I do not select them.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I beg to move, in page 19, line 18, at the end, to insert the words: (5) The general expenses of a catchment area shall, as far as drainage is concerned, not be more than fifty per cent. of the Treasury contributions and in the case of sea defence not more than twenty-five per cent. This Amendment raises the whole question of what is in the Bill as far as sea defences are concerned. The House will remember that at the beginning of the Session the Government introduced the Coast Protection Bill, but, for reasons which they alone understand, it was not proceeded with. In this Bill, by the simple substitution of words in regard to the defence against sea water, they are certainly introducing a portion of the Coast Protection Bill. That matter was very little discussed upstairs. It was found out rather late, and the whole of the implications and difficulties attached to it were not thoroughly gone into. If any reason for the recommittal of this Bill is needed, it is to be found in the question of how the Bill affects sea defence. The Amendment proposes a check on the catchment area spending authorities so as to bring them into line with the Treasury, or perhaps it should be put the other way round.

I want to know what line the Government take on the question whether the catchment area expenses are a national charge or whether they are to be entirely borne by the ratepayer? We in Lincolnshire feel this matter very strongly. The sea in some parts is the constant enemy of agriculturists and urban authorities. There have been cases where the sea wall has been breached and heavy losses incurred which the inhabitants have been quite incapable of paying so that the Government have had to come down with big sums of money. We do not want charity from the Government, but just rights, and, if the Government are prepared to accept the principle, perhaps with some modification, we shall be very glad. I hope the Government will say definitely how the sea defence rate is affected by this Bill, and whether it is considered as an ordinary drainage rate which should be allowed to fall on the urban and rural authorities. So far, we have had no proper explanation, either upstairs or on Second Reading as to sea defence.

There is another Amendment, which I understand Mr. Speaker will call, which would give the Government a better opportunity of dealing with the sea defence rate, but I hope they will say here and now how they propose to allot the Treasury contribution. Let me give one word of warning. This question of the Treasury contribution is going to be a very sore subject. We shall have representations from different districts and silver-tongued orators who will get these contributions. If we adopt a principle of the 50 per cent. kind we shall have a better foundation on which to go, because the needs of the agriculturists and the miner are very hard to set against each other, for there is necessity in both areas. I suggest the Government would be glad to find some principle on which to rely in making the allotments. We want to keep down the rates as far as possible, but the Government have a reputation for putting up taxes and rates. Let them accept this principle, and they will have some kind of foundation to go on. The Government are accused of putting forward this Bill in a tremendous hurry as an unemployment scheme. We regard that as a very great danger. If the Government are pressed from the unemployment point of view, we may have some kind of drainage works which we do not want, and which are much too costly to maintain, and the maintenance of which will fall very heavily on the public. For these reasons, I think this Amendment will give the Government a very good opportunity of saying where they stand in this matter.

Sir J. LAMB

I beg to second the Amendment.

I admit that we want to put a limiting power upon the expenditure of the boards. This is one way in which we hope we can limit the spending capacity of the boards, and consequently the burden to be placed later on the authorities who have to find the money. It is quite obvious that we, in this House of Commons, cannot rule as to what the amount of the grant shall be, because that would be out of order. Otherwise, I would have liked to see the grant stated, but that would not be in order. The only thing we can do is to say that the amount to be taken by the spending authorities shall be a certain proportion of the grant received. That is unashamedly the object of the Amendment, and I beg to support it on those grounds.

Mr. W. R. SMITH

I am rather surprised to hear the hon. and gallant Member describing this Bill as an unemployment scheme brought forward in a hurry. I happen to be one of the unfortunate persons who sat upon the Royal Commission four years ago. That Commission, through its Chairman, was urged time and time again to hurry on with the work because of the urgency of this Measure as far as land drainage is concerned. If it were such a matter of urgency from the point of view of drainage in 1926, surely it can hardly be described as being brought forward in a hurry in 1930? Of course, as has been said, this Amendment is designed for the purpose of limiting the expenditure of the catchment area authorities. It is impossible in this Bill to limit the reasonable and legitimate expenditure of catchment area authorities in this way. In the Committe stage my right hon. Friend in various ways met the criticism which was submitted in that regard. He has put a limitation upon catchment area authorities, both in regard to the total amount they can spend upon schemes, and the amount that can be levied by rates in connection with the scheme; that is to say, schemes cannot go forward until a pubic inquiry has been held where all the interests concerned have a full opportunity of expressing their views.

Hon. Members opposite seem to be losing all confidence and faith in public administration. These boards are composed of representatives who are defi- nitely elected authorities. They will be men of very wide knowledge of public work and wide experience, and it is absurd to suggest that those bodies, when constituted, will simply lay themselves out to incur as much expenditure as possible, regardless of the interests of those people who will have to meet the expenditure. They will be composed of people within the area, and I have yet to learn that that type of mind is a type that will incur expenditure for the sake of incurring it.

The only other point raised under the Amendment is in regard to the question of half the Government contribution. That is another attempt by my hon. and gallant Friend to carry his point and to insert a minimum of contribution which the Government will make. The answer, which has ben made on many occasions, is that the schemes will differ so materially both in extent and in relation to the area which carries the burden, that no fixed sum can possibly be allocated as far as the Government contribution is concerned. It must be left to be determined on the merits of the case, and the capacity of the area concerned to carry the burden involved in the scheme.

Sir J. LAMB

That is not a fixed sum, but in proportion.

Mr. SMITH

Yes, but obviously the contribution which the Government would make must vary from scheme to scheme. You might have a large expenditure on a scheme within an area which is limited as far as rateable value is concerned, and it is absurd to suggest that the contribution there must he the same as for a scheme in the larger area which has a larger rateable value with which to meet the obligations. There must be elasticity in this matter, and therefore the Amendment cannot be accepted. This principle applies to all schemes, and any contribution that is made must be determined ultimately by the merits of the case.

Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

The Parliamentary Secretary has told us that he was a member of the Royal Commission upon whose recommendations this Bill is founded, and I would remind him of certain recommendations of that Commission. We do not find two of its most important recommendations in this Bill. One of them is the provision of the Appeal Tribunal which was eliminated by the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary upstairs. The other recommendation is that great caution should be exercised in setting up machinery for this Bill, because of the depressed state of agriculture. I ask the hon. Gentleman whether agriculture is less depressed in 1930 than it was in 1927? We desire, especially, to place checks on the expenditure that will take place under the Bill, because we look upon it as a dangerous Bill which may be used by a needy Government, at its wits ends to provide employment. Therefore, we wish to put checks and to see that the expenditure under the Bill is productive expenditure. Here is a letter from the office of the County Councils Association, which says: In default of a guarantee of a minimum grant of 50 per cent., which would not prevent the Minister from differentiating between rich and poor areas, as is done today in the case of roads, there can be no really adequate safeguard for the local authorities. As the Financial Clause now stands, it is open to the Government to make whatever grants, small or large, they like towards the expenses of catchment boards, and I am not sufficiently optimistic to visualise a Minister of Agriculture strong enough to hold out for reasonably large grants against a needy Chancellor of the Exchequer, either in this or any other administration. This Amendment appears to us to be an eminently reasonable Amendment, and to provide a very fair check, and I would ask the Minister to accept it.

Sir E. SHEPPERSON

This is the first Amendment that we have had on what is to my mind the most important part of this Bill, that is to say, the Financial Clause. All the people in a catchment area, whether they are concerned as uplanders who will pay towards the county council's contribution, or whether they are in internal districts and will pay on the demand made upon the internal districts by the catchment board, are immediately concerned in the financial provisions, and this Amendment raises that point at once, in that it asks that the State contribution shall be 50 per cent. of the whole.

Mr. ALPASS

If the hon. Member will pardon my interrupting him, I think he is under a misapprehension. If this Amendment is read properly, it will be seen that it contemplates the Treasury finding two-thirds of the cost. The Amendment speaks of 50 per cent. of the Treasury contributions—not, as the hon. Member says, 50 per cent. of the total cost.

Sir E. SHEPPERSON

It says that the general expenses of a catchment board, so far as drainage is concerned, shall not be more than 50 per cent. of the Treasury contribution. If the Treasury contribution is 50 per cent., the contributions of the county council, internal boards, and so on will be the other 50 per cent.

HON. MEMBERS

No; 25 per cent.

Sir E. SHEPPERSON

I am corrected for the moment. Since that is the case, I am inclined to support this Amendment even more strongly than I was before. I can assure the Minister that the uplanders and the lowlanders will join together and try to get as much from the State contribution as they possibly can; and, having got as much as they can from the State contribution towards the catchment board's activities in the main channel, we shall commence our little domestic quarrels between ourselves as to who shall pay the balance, and in what proportions that balance shall be paid. We have known in the past great political differences, such that those who have been friends have at election times thrown rotten eggs at each other. We have read in the past of religious differences which even reached the point of bringing people to the State. But I want to assure the House that all the political and religious differences of the past will never equal in intensify the great diversity between the uplander and the lowlander with regard to contributions towards the expenses of this Bill; and I can forsee, and the Minister will foresee, the little bear-garden that the catchment board will be in the future when the uplanders on the catchment board have to try to agree with the lowlanders on the board as to what is a fair proportion between the two.

We are concerned with this Bill from an agricultural point of view. Its object is to benefit agriculture. Let us accept that. The only burden put upon agriculture by this Bill is the demand upon the internal district boards for their contribution. Agriculture will not directly bear any proportion of the State contribution. Agriculture, qua agri- culture, will not bear any share of the precept upon the county councils towards the finance of this Bill, because agriculture is de-rated; but agriculture, as regards the internal district boards, is going to be charged with some form of contribution. It is on behalf of the internal districts on the one hand, and particularly on behalf of agriculture on the other, that I ask that there shall be some limit to the liability which the internal districts have to bear, and which agriculture generally will have to bear under this Bill.

I should like the Minister, if possible, on this Amendment, to give me some assurance that there will not be placed upon the internal district boards and upon agriculture generally an unlimited liability under this Bill. We realise that the majority on the catchment board—20 out of the 30—will represent upland areas, and only 10 out of the 30 will represent the lowland areas or the internal drainage districts. What we fear is that the majority on these catchment boards, that is to say, the representatives of the upland areas, will use their power on the board to exploit the agricultural industry and to exploit the internal districts and the lowlanders in order to save the uplanders expense. I want to know whether it is possible at this stage for the Minister to give me some assurance or some information that I may take back to agriculture and to the internal districts, that the internal districts will not be exploited in this matter. If he can give me that assurance, I shall look much more favourably on his Bill than I otherwise should.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

The hon. Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) was, as usual, perfectly clear and quite out of order; and, also as usual, I am in complete opposition to him, and am glad on this occasion to be able to support the Government. After all, we must look at the facts. I want the State to make adequate contributions, and I want the State to make its contributions on a just basis. Next year we shall have the Land Valuation Bill, and then the State will be able to make a contribution, not of 50 per cent., but of 100 per cent, if it. likes, so long as it bases its contribution upon the value of the lands which are improved by the drainage. I am strongly in favour of a high con- tribution as long as it does not come from the wrong people, and I cannot help thinking that the representative of the internal drainage boards, if I may so call him, will be better when he gets his valuation, and is able to collect his money for the drainage board from the people who get the benefit from it.

Sir W. WAYLAND

I am sorry that I have again to differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson), but I cannot see why we should be under the thumb of the Treasury. As I read this Amendment, we must only spend half the Treasury contribution; that is to say, the Treasury dictate the amount that we shall spend. To that I cannot possibly agree. I do not agree, either, that agriculturists as a whole would support this Amendment; in fact, I am certain that they would not. As regards the Drainage Boards which are in existence at present, I think they are noted more for their parsimony than for anything else, and, therefore, I have no fear that, if the Boards are constituted in future as they are at the present time—if, as I think will be the case, the same men serve on them—there is very little fear that they are going to be extravagant, whatever Government may be in power.

Dr. ADDISON

I am sure hon. Members will recognise that the diversity of opinion in the House is ample justification for my not accepting this Amendment. There is another point which has rather been lost sight of, and that is that the diversity of values in these catchment areas makes it quite impossible to attempt to lay down a hard-and-fast rule. In the flooded area which has been referred to, the land, as I know, is in urgent need of drainage. In that area there was a vast inundation last year; but the Amendment which we are now discussing would have made it practically impossible for the authorities in that area to do any good without holding inquiries and going through all the other preliminary procedure. In than area a ½d. rate yields only £3,494 a year—

Colonel WEDGWOOD

It is all in Somerset.

Dr. ADDISON

I think not. On the other hand, a ½d. rate in the Trent area produces, not £3,000, but £44,117. How could any figure be laid down that would apply with any chance of fairness in both of these cases? In the Somerset area there might be a substantial Treasury contribution, but it would not be possible to have the same figure applying to the two. As to the feud between the upland and the lowland areas, we had some slight illustration of that in the Committee Room upstairs. The only time when the two join forces is when they think they can get more out of the Treasury, but the money is paid by the same people, even if it comes out of the Treasury. From what the hon. Member said, I am quite sure that, so far as maintenance and administration expenses are concerned, every catchment area should be governed by the clearly fair principle that as far as possible the expense should be distributed over the whole area. So far as improvements and so on are concerned, the rates in internal drainage areas are levied on a separate basis; but, putting those considerations on one side, I am quite sure that an Amendment of this kind would be impossible to work and most unjust in its application.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

In my view this is the most important Amendment that we have had to consider this afternoon, and I am very sorry that the Government refuse to accept it. My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) appealed for agriculture, and I entirely agree with his appeal, but he seemed to suggest that the lowlands are the only places where agriculture is carried on. I can assure him, however, that there is just as much agriculture in the uplands as in the lowlands. As I have said, however, with his appeal in the name of agriculture I entirely agree. It appears to me that the Government have made a complete mistake in dealing with this Amendment. They seem to think that we are suggesting a fixed rate, but we are doing nothing of the sort. We are suggesting a fixed minimum rate, and the contribution can be as much above that as possible. As regards the comparison between the Somerset and Trent areas, if Somerset want, as they do, to spend a large sum of money, and they can only raise from a ½d. rate £3,400, that means that the Minister will have to give more from the Treasury, and, instead of giving 50 per cent., he might give 75 per cent., or 80 per cent., or even 90 per cent. There is nothing to stop him from doing that; there is no suggestion whatever that the contribution should be at a fixed rate. Both the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary seem to think that we regard 50 per cent. as a fixed rate, but it is a minimum rate, which is an entirely different thing. This is a matter on which the county councils, and people in the country generally, feel a great amount of uneasiness. They think that, unless we can have this Amendment put in, there will be no possible guard against

increased expenditure. The Government are really doing the Bill and themselves a great disservice in refusing to accept the Amendment. Can anyone imagine the right hon. Gentleman going to the Chancellor of the Exchequer asking for £500,000 and standing up to him when the Chancellor of the Exchequer says, "You can only have £220,000"?

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 217.:

Division No. 466.] AYES. [7.33 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fielden, E. B. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Aske, Sir Robert Foot, Isaac Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Atholl, Duchess of Ford, Sir P. J. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Beery, Sir George Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Muirhead, A. J.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Bird, Ernest Roy George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Birkett, W. Norman George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Blindell, James Gower, Sir Robert Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Granville. E. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Ramsbotham, H.
Boyce, H. L. Gray, Milner Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brass, Captain Sir William Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Ross, Major Ronald D.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd'., Hexham) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) Gunston, Captain D. W. Salmon, Major I.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Butler, R. A. Haslam, Henry C. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd,Henley) Savery, S. S.
Carver, Major W. H. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir.J.A. (Birm., W,) Hurd, Percy A. Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)
Christle, J. A. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Cockerlil, Brig.-General Sir George Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Colfox, Major William Philip Iveagh, Countess of Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Colville, Major D. J. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Thomson, Sir F.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Kindersley, Major G. M. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Cowan, D. M. King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Train, J.
Cranborne, Viscount Knox, Sir Alfred Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Turton, Robert Hugh
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Little, Dr. E. Graham Wallace, Capt. D. E (Hornsey)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Llewellin, Major J. J. Ward, Lieut-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Long, Major Hon. Eric Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wells, Sydney R.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Eden, Captain Anthony Margesson, Captain H. D. Winterton. Rt. Hon. Earl
Eimley, Viscount Meller, R. J. Withers, Sir John James
England, Colonel A. Millar, J. D. Womersley, W. J.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Everard, W. Lindsay Mond, Hon. Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Lieut.-Colonel Heneage and Sir Joseph Lamb.
Fermoy, Lord Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bellamy, Albert Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Buchanan, G.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) Burgess, F. G.
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Benson, G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Bentham, Dr. Ethel Cameron, A. G.
Alpass, J. H. Bondfield, Rt, Hon. Margaret Cape, Thomas
Ammon, Charles George Bowen, J. W. Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.)
Arnott, John Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Charleton, H. C.
Attlee, Clement Richard Broad, Francis Alfred Chater, Daniel
Ayles, Walter Brockway, A. Fenner Clarke, J. S.
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Bromley, J. Cluse, W. S.
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Brooke, W. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Barnes, Alfred John Brothers, M. Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Barr, James Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)
Batey, Joseph Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G. Lawrence, Susan Salter, Dr. Alfrea
Daggar, George Leach, W. Samuel, Rt. Hon, Sir H. (Darwen)
Dalton, Hugh Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lees, J. Sanders, W. S.
Day, Harry Lewis, T. (Southampton) Sawyer, G. F.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Lloyd, C. Ellis Scurr, John
Duncan, Charles Logan, David Gilbert Sexton, James
Ede, James Chuter Longbottom, A. W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Edge, Sir William Longden, F. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Edmunds, J. E. Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Shillaker, J. F.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lowth, Thomas Shinwell, E.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Lunn, William Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Simon, E. D.(Manch'ter, Withington)
Gibbins, Joseph McElwee, A. Sinkinson, George
Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) McEntee, V. L. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Gill, T. H. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Gillett, George M. Mckinlay, A. Smith, H. B. Lees. (Kelghley)
Gossling, A. G. MacLaren, Andrew Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Gould, F. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) McShane, John James Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Greenwood, Rt. hon. A. (Colne). March, S. Snell, Harry
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marcus, M. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Groves, Thomas E. Markham, S. F. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Grundy, Thomas W. Marshall, Fred Sorensen, R.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mathers, George Stamford, Thomas W.
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Matters, L. W. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Melville, Sir James Strauss, G. R.
Hardle, George D. Messer, Fred Sullivan, J.
Harris, Percy A. Middleton, G. Sutton, J. E.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Mills, J. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville Milner, Major J. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Haycock, A. W. Montague, Frederick Thurtle, Ernest
Heyday, Arthur Morley, Ralph Tinker, John Joseph
Hayes, John Henry Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Townend, A. E.
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Mort, D. L. Vaughan, D. J.
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Muff, G. V[...]ant, S. P.
Herriotts, J. Muggeridge, H. T. Walkden, A. G.
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Murnin, Hugh Walker, J.
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wallhead, Richard C.
Hoffman, P. C. Noel Baker, P. J. Watkins, F. C.
Hopkin, Daniel Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Palin, John Henry Wayland, Sir William A.
Horrabin, J. F. Palmer, E. T. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wellock, Wilfred
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Perry, S. f. Welsh, James (Paisley)
Johnston, Thomas Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. West, F. R.
Jones, F. Llewellyn. (Flint) Phillips, Dr. Marion Westwood, Joseph
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) Picton-Turbervill, Edith Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Pole, Major D. G. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Potts, John S. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Kelly, W. T. Rathbone, Eleanor Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Kennedy, Thomas Richards, R. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh)
Kinley, J. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Ritson, J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Lathan, G. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Mr. Paling and Mr. William Whiteley.
Law, Albert (Bolton) Romeril, H. G.
Law, A. (Rosendale) Rosbotham, D. S. T.