§ Mr. BENSONI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the abolition of corporal punishment.4.0 p.m.This Bill has for its object the abolition of corporal punishment. It proposes to repeal various obsolete Acts and the Sections of various Acts which give the power of corporal punishment. I want to do this because I regard corporal punishment, particularly the use of the cat, as an old-fashioned and thoroughly out-of-date method which comes from mediæval days, when our whole penal code was merely a system of mutilation and torture. As a matter of fact, the cat as used to-day is a system of mutilation and torture, for the simple reason that the back of the individual who is flogged, when the flogging is finished, is a bleeding pulp. He carries the scars to the day of his death. This punishment is so savage that it cannot be inflicted on any man unless he has been carefully examined by a doctor to see that he is strong enough, and has to be administered in the presence of a doctor to see that he does not collapse under the lash. Flogging is rationalised brutality.
Apart from offences against prison discipline, there are only two Acts under which the cat can be administered to-day. There is the Garrotting Act for robbery with violence, and there is the Criminal Law (Amendment) Act, 1912, for procuration and living on the immoral earnings of a woman. Those two Acts are unique. They are the isolated exceptions of a tendency for 100 years towards the amelioration of our penal code, and both of those Acts were passed in moments of panic and hysteria, and were not the result of careful consideration. Take the Garrotting Act. This is the most important Act because nearly 95 per cent. of the sentences of flogging are given under it. It was passed in a moment of 230 panic, and it is important because it gave rise to the legend that flogging is a deterrent against the crime. I wish to quote the words of one of the most famous Members of this House, the late Lord Asquith, who, speaking of the Garrotting Act in 1900 said:
As to garrotting, that crime had been brought to an end as a serious danger before the House of Commons in a fit of panic, due to one of its own Members having been garrotted, resorted to legislation. Garrotting was put down by Baron Bramwell largely without resort to flogging.The Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1912, was the result of an extraordinary outburst of hysteria on the part of the women suffrage movement. At that time, this movement suddenly seized upon this question. I was actively engaged in it, and I remember the meetings. Meeting after meeeting for months on end was nothing but a series of tales, fantastic and impossible tales, about procuration. Procuration was suggested as a common, regular thing, whereas, as everybody knows, it was, before the passing of the Act, and still is, a comparatively rare offence. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Look at the figures. The case for flogging depends upon two attitudes of mind, first, that the offenders deserve it—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—well, I am not prepared to dispute that; and, secondly, that it is a deterrent. With regard to the question of deserts, I would point out "eye for eye" and "tooth for tooth" were forbidden by Christ; and that our penal code does not exist for the purpose of giving people their deserts, but for the purpose of maintaining law and order. Flogging is one of the worst possible methods of doing that. As to deterrents, I am not concerned to admit or deny that flogging is a deterrent, but I say that there are far better deterrents which are free from the grave evils which are associated with flogging. Mr. Justice Hawkins, a Judge of wide criminal experience, said:If you flog a man you make a perfect devil of him.A prison governor, who wrote a book called "His Majesty's Guests," says:What I would like particularly to emphasise is that I never in all my long experience 231 knew of a single case in which the 'cat' did not brutalise a man. I never knew one of its victims who was not a worse man in every sense afterwards than he was before. To give the 'cat' is pure vengeance and nothing else. After that reform is hopeless, they become as hard as nails.The fantastic thing about it is that, if a Judge orders the "cat," he reduces the length of the sentence. That means that you turn a man into a devil and make him as hard as nails, and then you set him loose upon society earlier than you otherwise would—surely a penal code worthy of "Alice in Wonderland." Flogging is an unnecessary evil. 95 per cent. of our floggings are carried out for robbery with violence, but that does not apply to Scotland. There is no flogging for robbery with violence in Scotland; there is no greater amount of robbery with violence in that country; and there is no demand for flogging from the Scottish authorities. The ordinary penalties have proved effective there, and they will prove effective in England. Flogging for penal offences, again, is not a deterrent. Wandsworth Prison holds the unhappy position of having the heaviest record for flogging, 30 per cent. of floggings taking place there. It is the only prison except Parkhurst, which comes next, where there has been a tendency for flogging to increase. Flogging has been abolished in the penal codes of Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, and from all the States of the United States of America except two. [An HON. MEMBER: "Russia!"] Is Russia your example? In Scotland, it is practically a dead letter. Those Members who are prepared to vote for the continuation of flogging, "are saying to the world, "Of all the peoples of the earth, the English alone require the crack of the whip for the maintenance of order, decency and law."
§ Sir HUGH O'NEILLI had no intention, when the hon. Member began his speech, of saying anything upon this question. After all, these Ten Minutes Rule Bills are in rather a peculiar position, because, even though a Member may be given leave to introduce a Bill, there is no prospect whatever of its ever getting any further than the introduction. There is, therefore, always an element of artificiality about discussions which take 232 place under the Ten Minutes Rule, but I felt, while the hon. Member was speaking, that, even though it may be a matter that will never be heard of again, it was a matter which should provoke some counter statement in an important assembly like the House of Commons. The hon. Member said truly that corporal punishment was a terrible and fearful punishment. I agree, but it is inflicted as a punishment for terrible and fearful crimes. Neither this country, nor indeed, so far as I know, any portion of the civilized world, is yet a community of saints. There are black sheep in all communities; there are people who commit the most appalling crimes and atrocities, and you must maintain in any penal code, which is going to stand the test of time, the power in the last resorts to inflict a terrible punishment of this kind. [HON. MEMBERS: "Burn them!" and "Rack!"] Robbery with violence, some forms of procuration, and other terrible crimes deserve terrible punishment. The hon. Member stated that there vas no instance, of which he knew, where the imposition of flogging had resulted as a deterrent.
§ Mr. BENSONI did not say that.
§ Sir H. O'NEILLI understood the hon. Gentleman to say something of that sort.
§ Mr. BENSONI said that I was not concerned to argue the question whether it was a deterrent or not.
§ Sir H. O'NEILLMay I give an example within my own knowledge where the imposition of flogging led to an immediate amelioration where there was a terrible outbreak of crime. Not long ago, during the troubles in Ireland, there was very prevalent a series of armed raids, people being held up at the point of the revolver, and being murdered for robbery. That outbreak of crime was crushed in Northern Ireland by an Emergency Act passed to legalise the infliction of flogging for those crimes. I wonder whether the hon. Member would suggest that corporal punishment should be done away with in the schools? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I do not suppose that there is an hon. Member who has not in some period had corporal punishment inflicted on him; I have had it administered on me—[HON. MEMBERS: "Is there any improvement?"] 233 —and I consider that the administration of corporal punishment of that kind is undoubtedly a good thing for improving the character of the younger generation. I sometimes think that, if we were to follow the suggestions of hon. Members opposite in some of these matters, we should soon become a
§ namby-pamby race of softies out of touch with the realities of a very human world.
§ Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the abolition of corporal punishment."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 226; Noes, 164.
235| Division No. 153.] | AYES. | [4.29 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Murnin, Hugh |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Hayes, John Henry | Naylor, T. E. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) |
| Alpass. J. H. | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Angell, Norman | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) |
| Arnott, John | Herriotts, J. | Palin, John Henry |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Paling, Wilfrid |
| Ayles, Walter | Hoffman, P. C. | Palmer, E. T. |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hopkin, Daniel | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Perry, S. F. |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Isaacs, George | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Batey, Joseph | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Bentham, Dr. Ethel | Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) | Phillips, Dr. Marlon |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Bowen, J. W. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Pole, Major D. G. |
| Brooke, W. | Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) | Potts, John S. |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Price, M. P. |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Pybus, Percy John |
| Burgess, F. G. | Kennedy, Thomas | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) | Kinley, J. | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Caine, Derwent Hall. | Kirkwood, D. | Raynes, W. R. |
| Cameron. A. G. | Lang, Gordon | Richards, R. |
| Cape, Thomas | Law, A. (Rosendale) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) | Lawrence, Susan | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Romeril, H. G. |
| Chater, Daniel | Lawson, John James | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Leach, W. | Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) |
| Compton, Joseph | Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) | Sanders, W. S. |
| Cove, William G. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Sandham, E. |
| Cowan, D. M. | Lees, J. | Scott, James |
| Daggar, George | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Dallas, George | Longbottom, A. W. | Scurr, John |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Longden, F. | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Dickson, T. | Lowth, Thomas | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lunn, William | Shield. George William |
| Ede, James Chuter | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Mac Donald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Shinwell, E. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Simmons. C. J. |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | McElwee, A. | Sinkinson, George |
| Egan, W. H. | McEntee, V. L. | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Foot, Isaac | McKinlay, A. | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
| Forgan, Dr. Robert | MacLaren, Andrew | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Freeman, Peter | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham. Upton) | McShane, John James | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley) | Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Glassey, A. E. | Mansfield, W. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Gossling, A. G. | March, S. | Snell, Harry |
| Gould, F. | Marcus, M. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Marshall, F. | Sorensen, R. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Mathers, George | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). | Matters, L. W. | Stephen, Campbell |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Maxton, James | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'W.) | Messer, Fred | Sullivan, J. |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Middleton, G. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Mills, J. E. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Milner, J. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Montague, Frederick | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Morley, Ralph | Tout, W. J. |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Hardie, George D. | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Turner, B. |
| Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Mort, D. L. | Vaughan, D. J. |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) | Viant, S. P. |
| Haycock, A. W. | Muff, G. | Walker, J. |
| Wallace, H. W. | White, H. G. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Wallhead, Richard C. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) | Wise, E. F. |
| Watkins, F. C. | Whiteley, William (Blaydon) | Wright, W. (Rutherglen) |
| Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Wellock, Wilfred | Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) | |
| Welsh, James (Paisley) | Williams. T. (York, Don Valley) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) | Mr. G. Benson and Mr. Ernest Brown. |
| West F. R. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) | |
| Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J. | Wilson R. J. (Jarrow) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Fermoy, Lord | Penny, Sir George |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Fielden, E. B. | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Atkinson, C. | Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Purbrick, R. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Balniel, Lord | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Remer, John R. |
| Berry, Sir George | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Ross, Major Ronald D. |
| Blindell, James | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Hamilton, Sir George (llford) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Hanbury, C. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Hartington, Marquess of | Salmon, Major I. |
| Boyce, H. L. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bracken, B. | Haslam, Henry C. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Savery, S. S. |
| Brothers, M. | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) |
| Buchan, John | Hurd, Percy A. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) |
| Buckingham, Sir H. | Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Skelton, A. N. |
| Butler, R. A. | Iveagh, Countess of | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Carver, Major W. H | James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Castle Stewart, Earl of | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Somerville. D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth, S.) | King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Chapman, Sir S. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Christie, J. A. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Tinne, J. A. |
| Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Llewellin, Major J. J. | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Train, J. |
| Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Logan, David Gilbert | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Long, Major Eric | Turton, Robert Hugh |
| Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) | Lymington, Viscount | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. | Wayland, Sir William A |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Duckworth, G. A. V. | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Marjoribanks, E. C. | Wilson, G. H. A. (Canbridge U.) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut. Colonel George |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Millar. J. D. | Womersley, W. J. |
| Elmley, Viscount | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Wood, Rt. Hen. Sir Kingsley |
| England, Colonel A. | Muirhead, A. J. | Worthington-Evans, Rt Hon. Sir L. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) | Nathan, Major H. L. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Major Sir Hugh O'Neill and Sir |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William | Samuel Roberts. |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Benson, Miss Wilkinson, Sir Robert Newman, Mr. Leif Jones, Captain Hall, Mr. Ernest Brown, Mr. Dukes, and Mr. Graham White.