Commons Sitting of 3 May 1929

Preamble
The House met at Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Methodist Church Union Bill,
Lords Amendment considered pursuant to the Order of the House of 30th April, and agreed to.
Lewes Corporation Bill,
Nottingham Corporation Bill,
Soke and City of Peterborough Bill,
Southampton Corporation Bill,
Southport, Birkdale, and West Lancashire Water Board Bill,
Lords Amendments considered pursuant to the Order of the House of 30th April, and agreed to.
Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [Lords]. (King's Consent signified.)
Bill read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
Birmingham Corporation (Rivers Improvement) Bill [Lords],
Chatham and District Traction Bill [Lords],
Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire Electric Power Bill [Lords.],
Newport (Salop) Urban District Council Bill [Lords.],
Read the Third time, and passed with Amendments.
Derby Corporation Bill.
Ordered,
"That, in the case of the Derby Corporation Bill, Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Grand Junction Company Bill.
Ordered,
"That in the case of the Grand Junction Company Bill, Standing Orders 84, 214, 215, and 239 be suspended, and that the Bill be now taken into consideration, provided amended prints shall have been previously deposited."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill, as amended, considered accordingly.
Ordered,
"That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Middlesbrough Extension) Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Darlington Corporation Trolley Vehicles (Additional Routes) Provisional Order Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Nith Navigation Order Confirmation Bill [Lords].
Considered; to be read the Third time upon Monday next, 6th May.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 8) Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.
Kirkcaldy Corporation Order Confirmation Bill. (By Order.)
Consideration deferred until Monday next.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 11),
Bill "to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Minister of Health relating to Brighton, Halifax and Upton-upon-Severn," presented by Mr. Chamberlain; and read the First time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 112.]
Dumfries and Maxwelltown Burghs Amalgamation Order Confirmation Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to Dumfries and Maxwelltown Burghs Amalgamation," presented by Sir J. Gilmour

1887
(under Section 7 of the Act); and ordered to be considered upon Monday next.
Barmouth Urban District Council Bill,
Reported, with Amendments from Local Legislation Committee (Section B); Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  FINANCE BILL.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time.—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
  Mr. GILLETT: In the few remarks I desire to make on the Third Reading of this Bill let me at the outset explain that it is not our intention to oppose the Measure. In one respect at any rate it realises what many of us on this side have been urging ever since we have been in the House, that is, that we have at last a proposal to abolish the Tea Duty. In the second place, if I had any hesitation in regard to this Measure, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, who, in a recent speech, attempted to prove how nearer the financial results accruing under a Conservative Government corresponded to the ideals of the Labour party in regard to direct taxation, would have helped to satisfy me that at any rate there are things in the Bill which might receive our support. In looking back upon the series of Budgets introduced by the present Government, of which this is the last, there are certain points which I should like to mention on this the last opportunity we shall have of considering the finances of the nation before Parliament dissolves. One matter which has been mentioned in the discussions on this Bill, is the treatment by the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Debt question.
  It is to be regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has paid such slight attention to what we consider the fundamental principles for dealing with Debt. This is the more important in view of the fact that the creation of new duties is a matter which is being constantly discussed in the country. The old principle which governed the treatment of Debt was a fixed Sinking Fund, commenced by the present Prime Minister, and the application of any surplus to the reduction of the Sinking Fund has been altered by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, decidedly to the detriment of the financial interests of the country. A criticism has appeared in one of the financial papers as to what really is the amount of money the Chancellor has actually used in regard to the Sinking Fund.
  Mr. SPEAKER: On the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, the hon. Member must confine his remarks to what is actually in the Bill. He cannot go beyond the scope of the Measure.
  Mr. GILLETT: Our discussions in Committee have covered a whole series of matters and in the beginning of the Bill we are told that they are provisions which are necessary to meet the expenditure of the country. I understood that on the Third Reading of this Bill a certain latitude is allowed hon. Members in dealing with these matters. There is the abolition of the Tea Duty, which surely involves a consideration as to the way in which money is to be raised, and that cannot be fully dealt with unless we are able to discuss the question of the Sinking Fund and the Debt.
  Mr. SPEAKER: It is customary on one of the Budget Resolutions in Committee to allow a full discussion of all questions affecting the revenue of the year and the payment of Debt, and an equal latitude is allowed on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. But, when we come to the Third Reading, it has always been customary and the rule that the discussion should be confined strictly to the provisions of the Bill itself, and to nothing else.
  Mr. GILLETT: The matters that come under the category laid down in that Ruling, Mr. Speaker, include Income Tax, the Tea, Duty, the Betting Duty and the Customs Duty dealing with hops. The issue that I wanted to bring before the House, relating to the debt and its relationship to other questions, hardly comes within the range of subjects that can be dealt with. I therefore turn my attention to the question of Income Tax and of direct and indirect taxation. At an earlier stage of the Bill the Financial Secretary to the Treasury pointed out that the repeal of the Tea Duty had altered the relationship between direct and indirect taxation. That alteration is one of the most important changes that the Government have brought forward. As to the distribution of wealth in this country, the returns for Super-tax and Income Tax have indicated, if anything, an increase of wealth among a certain section of the population and a decrease of wealth among the wage earners. We have seen going on throughout the country a reduction in the wages of the

  1895
  wage earners. Although the country is nothing like as prosperous as it was before the War, the burden has fallen largely upon the working classes.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. W. Graham) said in a recent speech that he estimated that out of a total income of something like £4,000,000,000, only £1,600,000,000 was the proportion that went to the wage earner, and that the much larger balance went into the hands of the rest of the community. That being the position in the relationship of the two classes, the question is, how far this Bill is going to adjust the inequality? One of the ways in which the inequality ought to be adjusted is, first, by a reduction of the taxes that fall upon the necessities of life. The Tea Duty is an illustration. It is also imperative that the Sugar Duty should be removed. Inasmuch as the Financial Secretary has spoken warmly in praise of what the Government have done in repealing the Tea Duty, I can only hope that if he and his friends should be in power in the next Parliament, we may look for a continuation of this policy of removing duties now imposed on the necessities of life. The inequality in the distribution of the income of the country does justify those of us who think that the resources of the country might be used to a greater extent in removing burdens that press so unfairly upon one section of the population, in saying that the financial policy of the country should be such that the credit of the country would increase the wealth available for those who are now suffering under very serious handicaps. The Bill ought to have included proposals that would have provided more employment for those who are now suffering. Is it not possible for more to be done in that direction? We are having the Betting Duty removed, and in connection with this further proposals are to be made at some future time in another Bill. Those proposals are unsatisfactory. It is a mistaken idea to make a differentiation in telephone charges in order to counter the proposals made in this Bill. The ruling you have given, Mr. Speaker, makes it impossible for me to develop the special subject on which I was anxious to speak, and I shall not detain the House longer.
  Mr. REMER: The hon. Member made the statement that the Conservative party had followed the principles of the Labour party in abolishing the Tea Duty. I would remind him that if it had not been for the revenue obtained under the Safeguarding Duties and other duties of a similar kind, it would not have been possible for the Government to have removed the Tea Duty. It is a remarkable fact that the Safeguarding Duties bring in practically the same amount as is lost to the revenue by the removal of the Tea Duty. The Conservative party has held for many years that our fiscal system should be so arranged that the duties imposed do the country some good, while taxes on such things as tea and sugar, which cannot add to the employment of our people, should be removed. I would commend particularly to the House the fact that not one word of criticism of a serious character has been raised by the Labour party or the Liberal party against this Finance Bill. I think the Chancellor is to be congratulated on the great benefit which he has given to the country, while avoiding those objections which are usually urged by hon. Members opposite.
  Mr. TINKER: This Budget has remitted certain taxes, and we appreciate that fact, but I think the Conservative party are taking more credit in this matter than they are entitled to. The Financial Secretary, in the Second Beading Debate, sought to take credit for the reduction of indirect taxation affecting the necessities of life, but, at the same time, he put in a plea for the direct taxpayer, and seemed to be of the opinion that the direct taxpayers were entitled to sympathy. The hon. Gentleman said:
  "Although the direct taxpayer is, according to these figures, paying 65 per cent. as against the 35 per cent. of the indirect taxpayer, it must not be forgotten that in practice the direct taxpayer pays also indirect taxes, whereas a large proportion of the indirect taxpayers do not pay direct taxes at all."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th April, 1929; cols. 1088–89, Vol. 227.]
  The hon. Gentleman left one to infer that the direct taxpayer was being penalised. I think I shall be in order on the Third Reading in touching upon that point, and in dealing with the proportion of the national wealth which goes to a certain section of our people as compared with other sections. I have been getting out figures in regard to the Super-tax

  1897
  payers, and I find that these people take a far greater proportion of the national wealth than they appear to be entitled to, and therefore ought to bear a far greater burden of the taxation of the country than they do at the present time. The Government could very well take away the taxes which we call indirect taxes, bearing on the necessities of life, if they desired to do so. We are told that the figure of indirect taxation has fallen, and that the proportion which was 4.43 per cent. is now 2.91 per cent. of the total tax revenue. The relief just given under this head amounts to about £6,000,000 and, according to the figures with which we have been supplied, that leaves somewhere between £13,000,000 and £14,000,000 being raised by indirect taxation. If the Government desired to do away with the remaining indirect taxes, I contend that they could have done so in this Budget.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer made the statement that he regretted having taken the sixpence off the Income Tax, but the right hon. Gentleman could very easily have reimposed the £10,000,000 of which he relieved the Super-tax payers in 1925. Had he done so there would be no question about the remaining 2.91 of indirect taxation. That could have been put right in this Budget. According to the financial returns which have been given to us, there are 147 persons in this country enjoying among them, an annual income of £29,500,000, which represents £200,000 per annum for each of those persons. That works out at £3,800 per week. On the other hand, taking all the 45,000,000 of people who are under our jurisdiction, out of the national income of £4,000,000,000 each person has only £1 14s. per week or about £80 a year. A comparison of the Super-tax payers with the ordinary indirect taxpayers showed a vast difference, which satisfies me that when the question arises of securing revenue we ought to look to where the money is. There is no apology from our side when we press that the national revenue should be obtained from those who have wealth and not from the poor people who have little. We think that in this Budget the Government could have relieved the people of the £13,000,000 or £14,000,000 of indirect taxation which means so much to them by adopting the method I have outlined.
  1898
  The Conservative party has placarded the country with posters bearing the words "Safety first." The Super-taxpayer who views that poster can say to himself. "Yes, this is a Government which means 'safety first' for me." Judging by this Finance Bill at least, that is the case, but there is a vast army of people who will view that poster with different feelings, and who will say, "It is not safety first for us." We say that the Conservative party have not carried out their mission, in putting this Finance Bill before the country, and I trust that when an opportunity comes, as I hope it will later on, we shall take advantage of that opportunity to raise this whole question of indirect taxes, and that the burden of raisings revenue required for the country will be put on the shoulders of those best able to carry it.
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: It is a little unfortunate that my hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) has not been able to develop the argument which he desired to develop. The Ruling which you, Mr. Speaker, have given is understood, but I submit that there is a case to be put forward on these lines. We submit that far too great a proportion of the national revenue is being raised from indirect taxation, and that, had it not been for the unfortunate treatment by the Chancellor of the debt question, there would have been a much larger surplus available in the next few years, enabling a much more effective attack to be made on the burden of indirect taxation at present weighing on the mass of the people. From that point of view I think we are entitled to say that if there had been a more orthodox—I fancy that is the word which the hon. Member for Finsbury would use—adherence to the settled principles of dealing with debt in the last few years, there would have been a much larger reduction in the burden on the indirect taxpayer than has yet been possible.
  The hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) has pointed out the serious anomalies which exist, as between the direct and the indirect taxpayer. It is no answer for the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Remer) to suggest that it would not have been possible to remit the Tea Duty but for the imposition of certain Safeguarding Duties. His case is that it has

  1899
  been possible to remove the residue of the Tea Duty because of the revenue which has been received in the last few years from Safeguarding Duties. If the hon. Member can persuade the poorer classes of the community that it is of any great advantage to them to get a reduction of 4d. per pound on tea, and, thereafter, to pay taxes upon all the knives, forks and spoons which they use, upon practically every article of crockery in their kitchens, upon the enamelled pots and pans used by the housewife, upon silk stockings and a multitude of other goods, then the hon. Member deserves to be called a very fortunate man. It is quite certain that the actual burden of the Safeguarding Duties upon the working class is more than sufficient to cover the whole of the relief which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given in the remission of the Tea Duty.
  I am delighted that at last we can regard ourselves as free from the imposition of the Tea Duty, and from more than one point of view. First of all, I am glad because for year after year in this House I have been personally associated with the efforts that have been made to secure the complete remission of the Duty, and I am glad because over a large and important trade you will have a good deal of expensive machinery now rendered unnecessary. There has always been a large amount of capital locked up in the financing of the process of the Tea Duty, and that will now be completely removed, and the general machinery for dealing with tea in the greatest tea market in the world, the City of London, will be certainly facilitated. I am glad also from the point of view of the consumer, because this relief is much overdue; and, following the line of argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Leigh, I think we can repeat here what we have said before, namely, that if the Labour party is given, as it deserves to be given, power in this country and not merely office without power, it certainly will attack this question of indirect taxation and, with the possible exception of duties upon pure luxuries, remove the whole burden of indirect taxation from the mass of the people and fit the burden of meeting the revenue required by the country on the backs of the people in accordance with the old-time principle of ability to pay. After all, the real test of just taxation,
  1900
  as my hon. Friend indicated, is what a man has left to provide himself and his family with reasonable comfort after he has paid the taxation which the State imposes.
  Things have been said in various quarters as to the effect that, in the case of the removal of the Tea Duty, as in the case of the removal of some other duties, it will not be likely that the whole remission of the duty will be passed on to the consumer. I want to say, quite frankly, that I do not hold that view. I think an examination of the results of the large remissions of indirect taxation made in the Labour Budget of 1924 will show that the consumer has reaped the benefit. There are always differences in the market price of the various commodities to be traced between 1924 and 1929, but if you take the whole of the figures of market quotations during that period and analyse the factors which have operated in causing those fluctuations, I think it can be clearly demonstrated that the remissions have been passed on to the consumer and I have no doubt that, as far as it is possible, this remission also will be passed on.
  But there is one danger, and it is mainly about this danger that I have risen this morning to address myself to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury. The tea used by our people is the most important and stable article of their diet. It is a curious thing that it is only quite recently that it has generally been regarded as a foodstuff. In fact, I think that even so recently as the inquiry by the Board of Trade under the Merchandise Marks Act tea was described as not being a foodstuff. It certainly is a very stable item in the diet of the people, and, therefore, it is essential that whatever changes take place in the Customs arrangements with regard to this commodity, some safeguard should be obtained to prevent undue exploitation of the community in regard to it. As I say, I think the remission of the duty will be passed on, but we have now had such a long history of Customs handling of this commodity that the statistics which have been regularly compiled by the Government Department concerned, and made available to the trade, have had a very important and a very stabilising influence upon the trade.
  It is always exceedingly important, when you are dealing with a commodity

  1901
  of this character, that you should know, not merely the gross figures of import and export, but also what are the stocks of the commodity in the country and where those stocks are. In the past, while tea has had to be put into bonded warehouses, from which it could not be removed until the duty was paid, we have always had very firm information, not only as to what the total stock is, but where the stock actually is for the time being. Traders, of course, have not removed their tea from bond until they were willing to pay the duty which was required to release it, and they did not do so until the last moment, because, if they paid large sums in duty in order to release their tea so as to carry a large stock ex-bond, they had to carry extra capital charges for the interest on that duty. But now that no duty is to be paid, no information as to actual stocks will be available from the Government Department. Tea can be removed from the quayside at any time when the tea comes in, and as there will be a conveyance of this tea to private warehouses and to all parts of the country for packing purposes, it will be exceedingly difficult to get really accurate information as to what are the available stocks and where they are for the time being, and that will have a much more disturbing effect upon the market for this commodity than has yet been realised.
  I know that this is rather a difficult question, and I am anxious not to press the Financial Secretary unduly this morning, but I want to ask whether the Government have the matter in mind and whether they propose to do anything about it. I recognise that, if you deal with a commodity like tea, now that it is duty free, from the point of view of information as to stocks, you at once raise the question as to what shall be the position of statistics as to stocks of other important food commodities, and, therefore, you enter upon a rather wide area of investigation and possibly of enactment; but, on the other hand, when you have had the experience in this trade in the past to go on and when you know the effect of having really adequate information, surely it is a guide for the Government of the day in its investigations as to whether, in the case of tea—and possibly, as I hope the Labour Government shortly will completely remove the duty upon sugar, in the case
  1902
  of sugar and similar important food commodities also—the country ought to know, not only for reasons of emergency, but also to prevent undue manipulation of the food markets, what are the stocks available and where they are.
  The only point about that is that any requirement in that connection should be completely general. I remember sitting in the witness chair before the Royal Commission on Food Prices in 1925 and being examined, without notice, by the Chairman, who wanted me to undertake to give certain information with regard to stocks. My answer to him at once was that we, for our part, would be quite willing to give information as to stocks, provided that everybody else was asked to do the same, and not only with regard to stocks, but with regard to forward contracts also. In view of the necessity of maintaining as far as possible the stability of the market in this commodity, I ask that at a time when the Government have at last seen their way to remove this duty, they will pay attention to this matter with a view to preventing what might possibly result in a sort of mild corner in this important food commodity. I do not propose to say anything else this morning upon the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, except to say that, apart from this one provision, the complete abolition of the Tea Duty, this is a most drab, mundane Budget, which cannot commend itself very strongly to the people, and is, perhaps, after all, a fitting climax to the somewhat inefficient performance of his financial duties by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Mr. PILCHER: There is a subject upon which I wish to say a few words if I may, and I apologise for troubling the Financial Secretary to the Treasury at this very late stage in the proceedings on the Budget. I want to refer to the position arising in regard to non-resident Income Taxpayers. Under the two decisions which were come to by the House of Lords in March, 1928, in the cases of Levene and Lysaght. The position now appears to be, to judge from the circular issued by the Board of Revenue in February, that a person living overseas, if he has a residence of any kind in this country, is chargeable to British Income Tax if he stays here for even a single week in the year. That is

  1903
  causing very serious injustice to officers employed by the British Crown, both military and civil officers, in the Overseas Dominions. I have got here some extracts from one of the leading newspapers in India. The heading to one of the leading articles is "A colossal wrong." It explains that very large numbers of people living in India are obliged often to maintain some sort of dwelling here for their children at school, or their wife it may be, and if the man employed abroad is compelled to come home for reasons of sickness, or for other reasons, he immediately finds himself on landing, however short may be the time he stays in this country, mulcted in British Income Tax.
  There is another rule which depends on those two decisions, or which seems to have been affected by those two decisions. It is to the effect that although a person may have no residence at all in this country, if he comes to this country for an average of three months in the year, over a term of four or five years, he may be mulcted in British Income Tax in respect of the whole of his income, either received or sent to this country. There are many cases in which a minimum of three months is spent here regularly by a person whose whole occupation is abroad, and that does involve, also, a very serious hardship in the case of some of the judgeships in our Overseas Dominions. Judges who are entitled to a minimum statutory average leave of three months, who spend their statutory leave out of the country, although they are employed abroad, and although the whole of their income is affected by it, find themselves mulcted in the same way as other people who have not a house in that country. I am much more interested, however, in the Overseas officers employed in the Overseas Departments than in other classes. There has been some apprehension expressed lest these new rules, or new reading of old rules, may operate against the visits of foreigners to this country. There have been instances given in the newspapers in which they have operated to that effect, and recently new associations, which have been formed to promote travel in this country, have mentioned that particular case to the Minister. That interests me less than the case of
  1904
  officers employed Overseas, and I think that if my hon. friend has studied the newspapers for the last two or three months, and the concrete cases given there, he will realise the very strong case there is for the reconsideration of the operation of the new rules and the need for their revision.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): I listened with pleasure but without surprise to the hon. Member opposite who opened the Debate when he announced that he was not going to oppose the Third Reading of this Bill. As a matter of fact, there is nothing with which the Labour party can find fault in the Bill; otherwise we should have heard of it. I note with astonishment that there is not a single Member of the Liberal party in the House while the House is discussing one of the most important Bills that can come before it. Here is a Bill giving legislative effect to the proposals in the Budget, and not one single Liberal Member is present to listen or speak. On the Committee stage there were not present at any time three Members of the Liberal party together. No one on the Liberal side spoke, but towards the end one hon. Member arrived on the Liberal Benches, got up, and asked a question which was out of order. This Finance Bill has been a remarkable Bill. Not one Amendment in Committee was put down. The Bill is unassailable, and no one opposite dares oppose it.
  I have no case to answer this morning, but a few questions have been put to me, and I propose to answer them briefly. The hon. Members for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett), Leigh (Mr. Tinker), and Hillsborough (Mr. A. V. Alexander) all dealt with the question of the relative weight of direct and indirect taxation. Let me say at once, on behalf of the Government, that there is no section of the people in this country for whom it is our desire to reduce the burden of taxation, more strongly, than our poorer fellow-citizens. It is the policy of the Government to take taxation off their shoulders and to improve their position. The lower the figure of indirect taxation upon the poorer citizens the better we like it. We have got it down for their benefit as I showed the other day. If you take out of the 35.61 per cent. of indirect taxation

  1905
  the theoretical indirect taxes upon oil, silk and betting, and the McKenna duties, 3.77 per cent., the figure is 31.84 per cent. for indirect taxation, which is below the figure of the Socialist Government and the lowest on record.
  There is a point which was never sufficiently brought out in the discussions on the Budget and on this Bill. I want to take the point, and I do not want to use an ethical or moral argument but to take it purely on arithmetical grounds. Before I deal with it let me preface my observations by a point already mentioned by me. Financial Statement No. 84 shows clearly what is contributed by direct taxation such as Income and Super-tax, Estate Duties, Stamp and Excess Profits Duty, Land Tax and other duties. That comes to £412,000,000. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the date?"]. That was issued by me as Financial Secretary on 15th April last. None of this money is contributed by the poorer members of our nation. Then come the Customs and Excise, £250,000,000, which is called indirect taxation but is not found by the poorer indirect taxpayer entirely. People often overlook the fact that part of it is found by the direct taxpayer. Therefore you have to add to the amount of percentage of taxation borne by the direct taxpayer the unknown amount borne by them also on indirect taxation. Then comes my main point. Hon. Members opposite always forget to give it value. On the other side of the Financial Statement are two social services which we are delighted to provide. In a very small degree they may perhaps benefit the direct taxpayer; but almost entirely they benefit the indirect taxpayer, that is to say, the poorer members of our nation. The point is always carefully avoided by hon Members opposite. The two amounts for social services which are enjoyed by the indirect taxpayers are education £50,000,000, and health, labour, insurance, including old age and widows' pensions, £79,000,000. Members must not forget, and the country must not forget, that here is the large sum of £129,000,000 provided by the direct and indirect taxpayer which almost entirely goes to the benefit of the indirect taxpayer. That £129,000,000 for social services has to be taken into account and given weight in the indirect taxation calculation. It is
  1906
  never admitted by the other side, yet it is a very cogent and powerful factor in the relative indirect and direct taxation scheme of this country.
  The other point with which I want to deal was that raised by the hon. Member for Hillsborough. He put his case very temperately and did his best to cover up his annoyance at not being able to find anything to oppose in this Bill. He asked if we would take some part in providing certain statistics for the use of the tea trade. He has been in trade and business, like I have, all his life, and he must admit that if he asks the Government to give statistics of tea, he must decide where the practice is going to begin and where it is going to end? It will not end with tea once you admit the principle of our compiling the necessary statistics to enable merchants to know what stocks are coming in and out. We therefore cannot agree to undertake that duty. But we will give such help as we can to assist merchants and importers to obtain the information they require, but obviously it must stop there, and the trade must not read into my words more than I mean. We will now give such help as we can. I understand that the tea merchants and importers are taking steps about gathering statistics which they themselves need; we will, if they now apply to us, do the best we can to give every help and courtesy in our power.
  I understood the hon. Member for Hillsborough to say that tea, which entered greatly into the food of the people—although he hinted that it had no food value—should be delivered to them in a cleanly state. I can tell him that the examination of tea for health purposes will continue. The obligation to examine imported tea, which is laid on the Customs by the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, 1875, will continue in force, notwithstanding the repeal of the Duty, and tea which is found to be mixed with other substances, or is exhausted or unfit for human food, will be subject to the directions of the Commissioners of Customs as regards disposal. It may give the hon. Gentleman some satisfaction to know that we intend to continue to look after the health of the people by seeing that they do not get adulterated food.

  1907
  12 n.
  The hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth (Mr. Pilcher) put a question, which I recently noticed in another form in letters to the Press, with regard to Income Tax on leave. I looked into the matter carefully, and I have made some notes upon it which I think will apply to the hon. Gentleman's question. I am glad that he has raised it, because it gives me an opportunity of clearing up a misunderstanding. The letters which have appeared in the Press were written under a misunderstanding of the position. My hon. Friend made use of the expression "subject to Income Tax if he stays here a week." That is not correct, and I am glad to be able to make a correction. The position is this. The hon. Member had in mind the case of a British subject working in India. The position of a British subject working in India or elsewhere abroad, who makes occasional visits to this country, is this. He incurs no Income Tax liability at all by visiting this country if he maintains no place of residence here, and if he be in the country for less than six months in the Income Tax year. Even if he maintains a place of residence here, the liability to Income Tax is limited to the amount of his foreign income which is received in or brought into the country. I think that that will lay at rest some of the fears expressed by my hon. Friend. Another point was raised in another part of the Debate to which I had better refer, because this gives me an opportunity of settling a misunderstanding. It is the point which concerns the charge to Income Tax on employés of British companies in India and the Malay States. It has been suggested that if these employés are paid by commission, the commission is liable to Income Tax here merely because the employer is a British company. The suggestion as I have stated it is entirely without foundation. The hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth expressed the fear that this alleged taxation of income upon visitors from India, the Dominions and foreign countries is opposed to the scheme which the Government have at heart, namely, the "Come to Britain" movement. The Board of Inland Revenue are anxious to dispose of what is a widespread misapprehension about the circumstances in
  1908
  which, and the extent to which, visitors to the United Kingdom who are not domiciled here are liable to Income Tax. I hope that the hon. Member will allow me to send him a lucid little document which was drawn up by the Inland Revenue in February last. It explains the misapprehensions and puts right the fears. It deals with the liability to tax on income arising abroad, and I think that it would be a service if I were to read one or two passages. We cannot make this position too clear, because misapprehension may do harm:
  "No part of a visitor's income from sources outside the United Kingdom is subject to United Kingdom Income Tax, unless he is chargeable as a person residing in the United Kingdom. The circumstances in which he may become so chargeable and the extent of his liability are indicated below."
  Then we come to a section on what constitutes residence:
  "A visitor who maintains no place of abode in the United Kingdom, and whose visits are not habitual, but occasional only, is not regarded as a resident in the United Kingdom unless he has been in the United Kingdom for a period or periods equal in the whole to six months in the Income Tax year beginning 6th April.
  A visitor who becomes chargeable as a resident is liable not on the whole of his income arising from abroad, but only on so much of that income as is received in or remitted to him in the United Kingdom."
  If there is any doubt about the interpretation of the meaning of these rules, the Inland Revenue will be glad to see people in order to explain the position to them; we wish to encourage people to visit us. I think I have dealt with all the questions. We have now come to the end of the discussions on this admirable Bill, and I ask the House to give it a Third Reading.
  Mr. MACQUISTEN: I would like to say one word on this Bill. Several times I have tried to get a word in. I hope that when the second Finance Bill comes on consideration will be given to the state of the West Indian sugar trade. Last year's Budget was very severe upon it, and there was hardship as a result of the regulations which were made. Several hundred thousands of coloured British citizens there are suffering very severely, and I trust the Chancellor of

  1909
  the Exchequer will make an investigation into the circumstances to see whether something cannot be done to remedy the state of affairs.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  NAVY, ARMY AND AIR EXPENDITURE, 1927.
  Considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
  "Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1927, Votes.

  Deficits

  Surpluses.

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, etc., of Officers. Seamen, Boys, and Royal Marines, and Civilians employed on Fleet Services.

  —

  9,530

  3

  6

  134,868

  4

  6

  —

  2

  Victualling and Clothing

  —

  —

  34,456

  13

  3

  6,852

  4

  6

  3

  Medical Establishments and Services.

  —

  —

  9,099

  4

  9

  5,424

  1

  4

  4

  Fleet Air Arm

  —

  —

  —

  —

  5

  Educational Services

  —

  —

  3,122

  11

  10

  843

  1

  5

  6

  Scientific Services

  —

  —

  19,306

  2

  5

  3,117

  18

  6

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  —

  111

  10

  2

  7,625

  3

  2

  —

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

  Sec. 1. Personnel

  —

  4,110

  2

  10

  24,690

  14

  9

  —

  Sec. 2. Matériel

  —

  —

  20,106

  0

  9

  151,542

  0

  3

  Sec. 3. Contract Work

  61,236

  19

  9

  11,485

  12

  11

  —

  —

  9

  Naval Armaments

  —

  —

  26,360

  18

  11

  5,090

  12

  11

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs.

  —

  49,066

  12

  9

  32,778

  11

  8

  —

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  35,693

  0

  8

  —

  —

  15,141

  0

  6

  12

  Admiralty Office

  —

  1,970

  7

  2

  6,838

  17

  4

  —

  13

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Officers.

  5,780

  5

  1

  504

  17

  2

  —

  —

  14

  Non-Effective Services (Naval and Marine), Men.

  —

  1,446

  15

  9

  6,294

  0

  11

  —

  15

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities.

  3,790

  4

  3

  —

  —

  187

  18

  6

  —

  Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

  2,276

  8

  0

  —

  —

  —

  108,776

  17

  9

  78,226

  2

  3

  325,547

  4

  3

  188,198

  17

  11

  Total Deficits £187,003 0 0

  Total Surpluses £513,746 2 2

  Net Surplus £326,743 2 2"

  31st day of March, 1928, that the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services, and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services over the net Expenditure is £326,743 2s. 2d., viz.:—

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  513,746

  2

  2

  Total Deficits

  187,003

  0

  0

  Net Surplus

  £326,743

  2

  2

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. A. M. Samuel.]
  Mr. GILLETT: I have one or two questions to ask. In Vote 8, Section 3, dealing with contract work, the first column shows an excess of actual over estimated gross expenditure of £61,236. I wish to know whether that indicates that far more contract work was undertaken than had been expected, and why this contract work proceeded so much more rapidly. May we take it that this expenditure in advance on that work in the year ending last March means that there will be a saving on the Estimates which have been prepared for this year?
  Mr. SHINWELL: I would like to put a number of questions relative to the position at Port Edgar, on the Forth. I have asked questions on this matter more than once, and have received very courteous replies.
  The CHAIRMAN: I do not quite see the relevance of that matter to this question of surpluses and deficits.
  Mr. SHINWELL: With great respect, I think that the question of the maintenance of Port Edgar arises under this heading.
  The CHAIRMAN: I think not, unless it can be shown that some work done or left undone at Port Edgar is responsible for one of these deficits or surpluses. This is a purely accounting matter. It does not deal with the year just ended, but with the year before that.
  Mr. SHINWELL: I am in your hands, Mr. Chairman, and I can only make my submission to the right hon. Gentleman and ascertain from you whether it is strictly within the terms of this question.
  The CHAIRMAN: I think this might arise on the Appropriation Bill, but I do not think it can arise on this purely accounting matter.
  The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Bridgeman): I am afraid I cannot give the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett) any details as to this excess expenditure on contract work. It very often happens that, for some reason or another, work proceeds more rapidly or
  1912
  more slowly than was originally expected. Sometimes the progress of work depends on the weather, and there may be other reasons. The hon. Member asked for an assurance that the things for which we have paid and which have caused this excess will not have to be accounted for in future years. What was spent in excess of what we expected to spend will come off what would have been spent later. The only point is that the bills come in rather sooner than we expected.
  Mr. GILLETT: We may expect the saving in the present year?
  Mr. BRIDGEMAN: I do not know about that, but at any rate the Government are not going to pay twice.
  Mr. GILLETT: I did not imagine the right hon. Gentleman's Department would do that.
  Mr. SHINWELL: May I direct attention the the Vote "Works, Buildings and Repairs"? On that Vote am I not permitted to raise the question of the maintenance of Port Edgar?
  The CHAIRMAN: This is not an estimate in the ordinary sense. This is only a statement of how, in a former year, the estimates compared with the realities, and the only question that can arise is why more was spent than was expected on one item or less on another. No question of policy can arise here.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  "Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1928, that the aggregate Expenditure on Army Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Army Services over the net Expenditure is £1,009,265 0s. 7d., namely:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  1,893,043

  17

  11

  Total Deficits

  883,778

  17

  4

  Net Surplus

  £1,009,265

  0

  7

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Army Services, 1927, Votes.

  Deficits.

  Surpluses.

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, etc., of the Army

  —

  604,644

  9

  5

  261,757

  8

  4

  —

  2

  Territorial Army and Reserve Forces.

  —

  —

  132,064

  18

  8

  5,937

  16

  1

  3

  Medical Services

  —

  —

  39,898

  16

  3

  4,184

  16

  10

  4

  Educational Establishments

  —

  5,288

  19

  9

  21,337

  3

  8

  —

  5

  Quartering and Movements

  —

  —

  165,349

  14

  11

  46,703

  2

  3

  6

  Supplies, Road Transport, and Remounts.

  —

  32,702

  11

  3

  332,397

  10

  11

  —

  7

  Clothing

  —

  1,820

  8

  7

  114,430

  11

  5

  —

  8

  General Stores

  —

  —

  48,379

  16

  0

  4,047

  11

  7

  9

  Warlike and Engineer Technical Stores.

  —

  —

  133,990

  12

  10

  176,947

  6

  7

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Lands

  —

  17,725

  15

  3

  202,534

  9

  8

  —

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  —

  —

  99,193

  4

  1

  44,663

  2

  5

  12

  War Office

  —

  2,327

  15

  7

  9,024

  9

  6

  —

  13

  Half-Pay, Retired Pay, and other Non-effective Charges for Officers.

  —

  14,523

  18

  0

  40,533

  10

  9

  —

  14

  Pensions and other Non-effective Charges for Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, Men, and others.

  182,442

  2

  4

  10,712

  2

  7

  —

  —

  15

  Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities.

  —

  —

  9,224

  8

  7

  443

  6

  7

  —

  Balances Irrecoverable

  11,590

  14

  7

  —

  —

  —

  194,032

  16

  11

  689,746

  0

  5

  1,610,116

  15

  7

  282,927

  2

  4

  Total Deficits £883,778 17 4

  Total Surpluses £1,893,043 17 11

  Net Surplus £1,009,265 0 7"

  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. A. M. Samuel.]
  Mr. KELLY: I wish to draw attention to the last item, "Balances irrecoverable," which amounts to £11,590 14s. 7d. May we have some explanation as to what is meant by that?
  Mr. GILLETT: I have four points on which I would like to put questions. The first refers to the figure of £604,000 in Vote No. 1, representing deficiencies of actual receipts in connection with the pay of the Army. I notice that there is a corresponding reduction of £261,000 in the gross expenditure. One would have thought the pay of the Army would have been more closely estimated, and these figures seem rather extraordinary. In regard to Votes No. 9 and No. 10, the question I have to raise is somewhat similar to the one I brought up in regard to the Navy. I wish to know whether Vote No. 9 means simply a, reduction in the amount of the holding of stores by the Army, and whether Vote No. 10, dealing
  1914
  with works, buildings and land, means a postponement of certain work which they had expected to undertake before now. The fourth figure to which I wish to draw attention, and which seems rather an amazing figure, comes under Vote No. 14, dealing with pensions and other non-effective charges. One would have thought the pensions would have been much more closely estimated.
  The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): I will answer the four points raised by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Gillett). With regard to the first question, the strength of the Army during the period in question was lower than had been estimated. That is part of the explanation. Then, the provisional payment made by India was £200,000 less than the estimate. That matter is under discussion with the Indian Government. The Egyptian Government's contribution had also not yet been settled, and £150,000 has not been received. The amount provisionally brought to account as regards the military contribution

  1915
  of the Straits Settlements was £140,000 less than the estimate, pending discussion. The portion of the Dawes Annuity received in respect of the Rhine Army was £116,000 less than estimated. The Hong Kong contribution was £43,700 below the Estimate. That is the explanation of that item. Items Nos. 9, 10 and 14 deal with warlike stores; works, buildings and lands, pensions and other non-effective charges. In reference to warlike stores, the explanation is the claim made by the Government of India for employing Indians in China. The policy of the Government was to make savings in order to meet the extra expenditure incurred in China. The deficiencies in regard to the expenditure on works, buildings, and land are due to the same reason. The expenditure was cut down to a minimum in order that we might have extra money to meet the extra expenditure in connection with China. As far as the increase in pensions is concerned, that is due to the efficiency of the Ministry of Pensions which has enabled them to settle more of their business than was expected within that period. With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) relating to irrecoverable balances, I will look into the point and communicate with him.

  SCHEDULE.

  No. of Vote.

  Air Services. 1927, Votes.

  Deficits.

  Surpluses

  Excesses of actual over estimated gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of estimated over actual gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of actual as compared with estimated Receipts.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, etc., of the Air Force

  —

  108,273

  10

  10

  87,207

  11

  3

  —

  2

  Quartering Stores (except Technical), Supplies, and Transport.

  —

  140,797

  0

  6

  88,229

  14

  0

  —

  3

  Technical and Warlike Stores (including Experimental and Research Services).

  —

  232,392

  4

  5

  471,727

  12

  1

  —

  4

  Works, Buildings, and Lands

  —

  55,820

  10

  9

  264,442

  14

  9

  —

  5

  Medical Services

  —

  14,222

  10

  8

  6,285

  15

  11

  —

  6

  Educational Services

  —

  4,863

  19

  8

  13,212

  6

  10

  —

  7

  Auxiliary and Reserve Forces

  —

  192

  6

  4

  5,607

  11

  4

  —

  8

  Civil Aviation

  —

  —

  47,343

  1

  5

  3,217

  4

  1

  9

  Meteorological and Miscellaneous Effective Services.

  3,039

  19

  10

  —

  —

  7,654

  5

  4

  10

  Air Ministry

  5,255

  16

  4

  647

  14

  5

  —

  —

  11

  Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-effective Services.

  —

  542

  9

  6

  11,848

  9

  5

  —

  —

  Balances irrecoverable and Claims abandoned.

  3,141

  18

  7

  —

  —

  —

  11,437

  14

  9

  557,752

  7

  1

  995,904

  17

  0

  10,871

  9

  5

  Total Deficits £569,190 1 10

  Total Surpluses £1,006,776 6 5

  Net Surplus 437,586 4 7"

  Mr. GILLETT: The hon. Member referred to the negotiations going on with the Indian Government as to their contribution for the services of the Army in India. That matter has been under negotiation for a number of years, and I should like to know whether there is any likelihood of an early settlement.
  Mr. COOPER: There is more likelihood of a settlement being made in the near future than there has been during any previous period.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  "III. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1928, that the aggregate Expenditure on Air Services has not exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services and that, as shown in the Schedule hereto appended, the net surplus of the Exchequer Grants for Air Services over the net Expenditure is £437,586 4s. 7d., namely:

  £

  s.

  d.

  Total Surpluses

  1,006,776

  6

  5

  Total Deficits

  569,190

  1

  10

  Net Surplus

  £437,586

  4

  7

  "And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Air Services as is necessary to make good the said total deficits on other Grants for Air Services.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[Mr. A. M. Samuel].
  Mr. KELLY: I would like to have an explanation of Item No. 3 dealing with technical and warlike stores (including experimental and research Services.) The deficiencies in this case amount to £232,392 4s. 5d., and I would like an explanation of that Item. I would also like some explanation of the last Item "Balances irrecoverable and claims abandoned." I do not want to raise any suspicion in regard to the Services, but in view of many questions raised in this House, we are certainly anxious to be sure that matters are going on smoothly.
  The SECRETARY of STATE for AIR (Sir Samuel Hoare): The answer to the first question put by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) is that, owing to the expenses at Shanghai and the falling off in revenue due to labour troubles, the Air Ministry were asked to make a substantial saving after the Air Estimates had been passed by this House. We were asked to save £500,000, and we succeeded in saving the greater part of that sum, amounting to £450,000. We had to make our principal economies on Votes 3 (Technical and warlike stores) and 4 (Works, buildings and lands). The discrepancy to which the hon. Member for Rochdale has called attention is chiefly due to the fact that we made substantial savings on Vote 3. Those two facts explain the discrepancy to which attention has been drawn. The hon. Member for Rochdale asked for further information about the last item in the Financial statement, "Balances irrecoverable and claims abandoned." This is only a question of a very small sum remaining to be written off.
  Mr. GILLETT: I do not quite understand the contribution relating to the Middle East. Does it depend on the policy of some other Department?
  Sir S. HOARE: It depends upon the expenditure of the garrisons during the period of reducing the units. The real reason is that we were able to make quicker reductions than we expected.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next, 6th May.

  POLICE MAGISTRATES SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Read the Third time, and passed.
  SALMON AND FRESHWATER FISHERIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered; read the Third time, and passed.

  AGE OF MARRIAGE BILL [Lords].
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."—[Mr. Withers.]
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: On behalf of the Opposition, I wish to state that we are glad that this Bill has been brought before the House. We regard it as a highly desirable thing that the marriage age should be amended in the way proposed by this Measure.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Mr. Withers.]
  Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.

  GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES BILL [Lords].
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."—[Mr. A. M. Samuel.]
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: We know that this is a Consolidation Bill, but we should like to have some little explanation of it.
  Mr. SAMUEL: This Bill is a Consolidation Bill dealing with the Government annuities issued by the National Debt Commissioners and the Post Office Savings Bank and with Government Life Insurance. Some of the Statutes dealing with this matter date back as far as 1829, and are very complicated and difficult to understand.

  1919
  This Bill consolidates no fewer than 20 Acts, and it also has the effect of making the law more easily understood by the public. I can assure the House that no change whatever has been made in the law. I am given to understand that the Bill has been before the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills of both Houses, and the Report of that Committee has been laid before Parliament in House of Commons Paper No. 71, of which I have a copy here, in case any hon. Member would like to look at it. The Joint Committee state that, subject to certain very minor points to which they draw attention, the Bill in its present form represents the existing statutory law with respect to Government annuities, that is to say, that no change has been made in the law.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Mr. A. M. Samuel.]
  Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
  [Mr. JAMES HOPE in the Chair.]
  Clauses 1 to 36, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  GOVERNMENT ANNUITIES BILL [Lords].

    CLAUSE 37.—(Power to grant savings bank annuities and insurances.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
    Mr. ALEXANDER: As I said in regard to another Bill, it is a pity to stop the speedway in the passage of a Bill of this kind, but we should like some information upon this one Clause, as to which we are not quite sure. Clause 37 deals generally wth savings bank annuities and insurances, but we understand that the Post Office have relinquished the whole of their life assurance business, except as regards existing policies—that they are not going to issue any more. We understand from the Financial Secretary that this Consolidation Bill does not make any alteration in the law. That may be so, but would he be good enough to explain the position with regard to the Post Office Insurance Department, having regard to the fact that the law is not being amended in the process of consolidation?
    Mr. SAMUEL: Here is the explanation quite simply. The Clause provides that:
    "Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act and of the regulations made thereunder, the Commissioners may, either themselves directly, or through savings banks or parochial or other societies or other duly authorised agents, grant savings bank annuities."
    It then goes on to state the different kinds of annuities, and that
    "Subject as aforesaid, the Commissioners may also in like manner enter into contracts (hereinafter referred to as savings bank insurances)—

    (a) for the payment of a sum of money on the death of the person or one of the persons with whom the contract is made; or

    (b) for the payment of a sum of money to be made on the attainment by the person with whom the contract is made of a specified age, or sooner in the case of his death."

    There is no difficulty about the position. It also lays down that
    "The Commissioners may refuse to grant a savings bank annuity or a savings bank insurance in any case where there are, in the opinion of the Commissioners, sufficient grounds for refusing so to do,"
    and that:
    "The Treasury may by warrant addressed to the Commissioners discontinue the granting of savings bank annuities or insurances if they think fit so to do."
    No alteration has been made in the law. If hon. Members will look at page 3, of House of Commons Paper No. 71, they will see the actual points to which the attention of Parliament is drawn by the Joint Committee. Clause 37 makes no alteration whatever in the law; otherwise, it would be so stated by the Joint Committee. Consequently, the fear as to Clause 37 which may exist in the hon. Member's mind that some alteration has taken place is, I am glad to say, without foundation.
    Mr. SHINWELL: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood the point which my hon. Friend put to him. It is, as I understand it, whether the provisions which the hon. Gentleman has just read apply to existing policies, or whether they relate to new policies that may be taken out by persons interested. The point of substance is whether the provisions of this Measure are to apply

    1921
    fully for the purposes of life assurance, and on that point the hon. Gentleman has maintained silence.
    Mr. SAMUEL: I think the hon. Member is under a misapprehension. I am not in a position to discuss the law as it exists, but the law is left as it stood before, and it is not altered by the Measure.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clauses 38 to 70, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Schedules agreed to.
    Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Sir W. Cope.]
    Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-five Minutes before One o'Clock.