HC Deb 06 March 1929 vol 226 cc508-21
Mr. HARDIE

I beg to move to leave out the Clause.

I move this Amendment in order to see that fair play should be obtained. If the Clause had been clear as to what the Bill was to do, there would have been no need for a governing Clause such as this. Sub-section (3) reads: The Secretary of State may by order make such adaptations in the provisions of any local Act as may seem to him to be necessary in order to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Act or in order to make an equitable adjustment or apportionment of any expenditure or payment under the local Act consequent on the carrying into effect of the provisions of this Act. This is a very big power to give to any person. We talk about Mussolini and about dictators but we propose to give to the Secretary of State for Scotland power to make such adaptations in the provisions of any local Act as may seem to him—not to Parliament—to be necessary in order to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Measure. We on this side who have been used to practical administration and to the drafting of rules for practical purposes hold the view that unless you can see things clearly before you you cannot put them down in practical words. This Clause simply means that the preceding Clauses are not clear and that they do not hang together. They cannot be left as they are. It is necessary to put in this Clause because it is felt that the other Clauses may not work. You insert this Clause in order to protect yourselves against your own inefficiency. I do not blame the draftsmen so much as those who put forward these inadequate ideas. These matters call for real vision such as an engineer uses when he can visualise a machine working before be begins to draw a plan of it. But here we have the dullards of the Tory party, in their last year of office, trying to do something spectacular. Well, it may be spectacular but it is very impracticable. This Clause, in effect, says that if the Bill does not work in the ordinary way powers are to be taken to make it work. All the traffic is to be set aside in order to allow this Juggernaut to pass along.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

I beg to second the Amendment.

This Clause is a specimen of the legislation which the Government tell us is progressive. It is nothing else but a reversion to mediaevalism. It is the sort of thing against which our forefathers fought when Kings in former days attempted it. Now the servants of the King are asking for powers which the Members of this House have withheld from their Masters in the past. This Clause includes the power not only to vary the provisions of this Act, but to vary the provisions of other Acts. The English Members did not put up a very good fight, generally speaking, on their Bill, but all honour to them for the fact that, at any rate, they fought well against the proposal to give the English Minister power to vary any provisions in the English Measure which he thought necessary. This proposal goes much further. It enables the Secretary of State to make provision for any matters incidental to or consequential on any provision of this Act including any incidental or consequential adaptations of the provisions of any Act of Parliament. I do not believe that any Minister in the last 50 years has demanded powers as wide as that. The Secretary of State may also make such adaptations in the provisions of any local Act as may seem to him necessary, in order to make those provisions conform with this Measure. It is time we protested against legislation of this sort, and I hope we shall be joined by Members of all parties and by representatives of all the nationalities in these islands who are represented in this House in objecting to it. I hope if the right hon. Gentleman does not withdraw the Clause that it will be rejected by the House.

Sir J. GILMOUR

The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie), who moved the Amendment to delete the Clause, did not make any mention of the numerous Amendments which are on the Paper in my name in regard to the Clause as it exists in the Bill, and the hon. and gallant Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir A. Sinclair), who seconded and who spoke so dramatically, seemed to have forgotten the past history of his party, who, in fact, are as much responsible as any party in the House for the inclusion in Measures of such Clauses as are under discussion at this time. I would say to the hon. and gallant Member that, at any rate, he also has apparently failed to observe any of the Amendments which are down in my name dealing with this Clause, and I would say to the House at once that I agree with most of my colleagues that it would be very undesirable that these powers should be so far extended as to become in any sense a menace, an engine to be used, either by the Minister or by the officials in his Department, against the considered view of Parliament. But everyone who has had experience in the administration of Measures dealing, as this Measure deals, not only with Acts of Parliament governing the concerns of these local authorities, but almost infinitely more with the numerous private Acts affecting these local authorities—Acts of which, I may point out, there is no codification, and where it is only after a course of time that even the local authorities concerned can themselves become aware of the circumstances—everyone with this experience knows that it is essential that, for a limited time, there shall be some power given to the Minister. All I would say is that we have, in the earlier part of the day, dropped out one of the Clauses giving powers to deal with this matter, and, in concentrating the remaining powers in this Clause, we have accepted exactly all those Amendments which were accepted on the English Bill dealing with a similar problem. In practically every case these Orders will have to be laid upon the Table of the House; and I think, in view of that fact and of the great modifications on the original Clause, the House need have less anxiety than it has had hitherto on this subject.

Sir R. HORNE

Will my right hon. Friend read the Clause as it would read with his Amendments inserted?

HON. MEMBERS

No time!

Sir JOHN MARRIOTT

I am exceeding reluctant, even by a momentary intrusion upon this Debate, to offer to my hon. Friends opposite any sort of argument in favour of Home Rule for Scotland, but this is a matter on which, I think, there can be no distinction whatever of nationality. It is a matter which goes to the very root of our constitutional procedure in this House. I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Sir. A. Sinclair) into those very interesting discussions of the constitutional issues of the 17th century, but, if I may respectfully say so, he is absolutely right in suggesting that we are attempting to go back upon issues which we did think had been settled for all time as between the Crown and the individual subject in this country. After all, what the Minister is asking for in this Clause is that dispensing power which we abolished by the constitutional struggles of the 17th century, for it is a dispensing power.

The Minister has said he is going to move Amendments which will bring this Clause into conformity with the corresponding Clause in the English Bill. I am sure everyone will recognise the most conciliatory temper in which the right hon. Gentleman has approached the consideration of this Clause, and in which he is going to propose his Amendments, but although many of us recognise that some such Clause as this is a necessity under the complexities of a Bill like this, yet few of us who took an active part in the discussions on the English Bill were at all satisfied with the Amendments

which the Minister of Health put into that Bill. Therefore, it is no recommendation to us for the Secretary of State for Scotland to assure us that his Amendments will bring this Clause into conformity with the corresponding Clause in the English Statute—or, rather, Bill, because it has not yet become a Statute, and I hope very much that it will not find it way on to the Statute Book until the Clause is again and drastically amended. There may be others who de sire to speak on this subject—[HON. MEMBERS: "Go on!"]—but it is a question on which I have the strongest possible convictions, and I do not think any considerations of party ought to prevent one from giving expression to his views on it. I should oppose this Clause, I say frankly, quite as strongly, and perhaps a little more strongly, if it came in one of the Bills from the opposite Benches, but none the less do I welcome any help which we may obtain from hon. or right hon. Gentlemen opposite, whether above or below the Gangway, in order to defeat a proposal which, in its details, is still, to my mind, exceedingly objectionable on the broadest constitutional grounds.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'by' in line 37, stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 96.

Division No. 257.] AYES. [10.28 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Grant, Sir J. A.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Christie, J. A. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Apsley, Lord Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Greene, W. P. Crawford
Atkinson, C. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Grotrian, H. Brent
Balniel, Lord Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hacking, Douglas H.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Conway, Sir W. Martin Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cooper, J. B. Hamilton, Sir George
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Hammersley, S. S.
Bethel, A. Dalkeith, Earl of Harrison, G. J. C.
Betterton, Henry B. Davies, Dr. Vernon Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Eden, Captain Anthony Haslam, Henry C.
Boothby, R. J. G. Edmondson, Major A. J. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Elliot, Major Walter E. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Ellis, R. G. Henn, Sir Sydney H.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Briscoe, Richard George Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Hills, Major John Waller
Brittain, Sir Harry Fairfax, Captain J. G. Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Hopkins, J. W. W.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Fermoy, Lord Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Fielden, E. B. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Ford, Sir P. J. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Burman, J. B. Foster, Sir Harry S. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n)
Campbell, E. T. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Carver, Major W. H. Gates, Percy Iveagh, Countess of
Cassels, J. D. Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John King, Commodore Henry Douglas
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Goff, Sir Park Lamb, J. O.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Gower, Sir Robert Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Chapman, Sir S. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)
Loder, J. de V. Oakley, T. Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Looker, Herbert William O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Skelton, A. N.
Lougher, Sir Lewis Oman, Sir Charles William C. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Lumley, L. R. Pennefather, Sir John Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Storry-Deans, R.
Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Power, Sir John Cecil Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
MacIntyre, Ian Price, Major C. W. M. Styles, Captain H. Walter
Macmillan, Captain H. Radford, E. A. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Macquisten, F. A. Raine, Sir Walter Templeton, W. P.
MacRobert, Alexander M. Reid, D. D. (County Down) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel Remer, J. R. Tinne, J. A.
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Ward, Lt. Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Warrender, Sir Victor
Margesson, Captain D. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford) Wayland, Sir William A.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Ropner, Major L. Wells, S. R.
Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Moreing, Captain A. H. Rye, F. G. Withers, John James
Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Salmon, Major I. Womersley, W. J.
Murchison, Sir Kenneth Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Wright, Brig-General W. D.
Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Sandeman, N. Stewart Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Sandon, Lord TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Savery, S. S. Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.
Nuttall, Ellis Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hayday, Arthur Potts, John S.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Purcell, A. A.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Barnes, A. Hirst, G. H. Riley, Ben
Barr, J. Hollins, A. Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)
Batey, Joseph Hore-Belisha, Leslie Saklatvala, Shapurji
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Scrymgeour, E.
Bellamy, A. Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Shield, G. W.
Benn, Wedgwood John, William (Rhondda, West) Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shinwell, E.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Broad, F. A. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromfield, William Kelly, W. T. Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Bromley, J. Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W.
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Lawrence, Susan Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G. Lawson, John James Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lowth, T. Sutton, J. E.
Clarke, A. B. Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph
Cluse, W. S. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Tomlinson, R. P.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Townend, A. E.
Cove, W. G. MacNeill-Weir, L. Viant, S. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Wallhead, Richard C.
Day, Harry Maxton, James Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Gillett, George M. Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Wellock, Wilfred
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) Morris, R. H. Westwood, J.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Griffith, F. Kingsley Mosley, Sir Oswald Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Naylor, T. E. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Owen, Major G.
Hamilten, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hardie, George D. Ponsonby, Arthur Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Whiteley.

It being after half-past Ten of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th December, successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given.

Amendment proposed:

In page 65, to leave out from the word "may," in line 37, to the word "and," in line 39, and to insert instead thereof the words: make such order for removing the difficulty as he may judge necessary for that purpose."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Question put, "That the Amendment he made."

The House divided: Ayes, 173; Noes, 94.

Division No. 258.] AYES. [10.38 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Glyn, Major R. G. C. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Goff, Sir Park Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Gower, Sir Robert Nuttall, Ellis
Apsley, Lord Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Oakley, T.
Atkinson, C. Grant, Sir J. A. O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Balniel, Lord Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Greene, W. P. Crawford Pennefather, Sir John
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Grotrian, H. Brent Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bethel, A. Hacking, Douglas H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Betterton, Henry B. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Power, Sir John Cecil
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Hamilton, Sir George Price, Major C. W. M.
Boothby, R. J. G. Hammersley, S. S. Radford, E. A.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Harrison, G. J. C. Raine, Sir Walter
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Haslam, Henry C. Remer, J. R.
Briscoe, Richard George Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brittain, Sir Harry Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hills, Major John Waller Ropner, Major L.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Brown, Brig-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Burman, J. B. Hopkins, J. W. W. Rye, F. G.
Campbell, E. T. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Salmon, Major I.
Carver, Major W. H. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Casseis, J. D. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hume, Sir G. H. Sandon, Lord
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Savery, S. S.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Iveagh, Countess of Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Chapman, Sir S. King, Commodore Henry Douglas Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Skelton, A. N.
Christie, J. A. Lamb, J. Q. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Lister, Cunliffe, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Loder, J. de V. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Collox, Major Wm. Phillips Looker, Herbert William Storry-Deans, R.
Conway, Sir W. Martin Lougher, Sir Lewis Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Couper, J. B. Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Styles, Captain H. W.
Crooks, J. Smedley (Deritend) Lumley, L. R. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Dalkeith, Earl of MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Templeton, W. P.
Davies, Dr. Vernon Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Eden, Captain Anthony Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Tinne, J. A.
Edmondson, Major A. J. MacIntyre, I. Ward, Lt Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Macmillan, Captain H. Warrender, Sir Victor
Ellis, R. G. Macquisten, F. A. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) MacRobert, Alexander M. Wayland, Sir William A.
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Wells, S. R.
Fairfax, Captain J. G. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Fanshawe, Captain G. D. Margesson, Captain D. Withers, John James
Fermoy, Lord Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Womersley, W. J.
Fielden, E. B. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Wright, Brig-General W. D.
Ford, Sir P. J. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Foster, Sir Harry S. Moreing, Captain A. H.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Gates, Percy Murchison, Sir Kenneth Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Wallace.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cove, W. G. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Barr, J. Day, Harry John, William (Rhondda, West)
Batey, Joseph Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)
Bellamy, A. Gillett, George M. Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen)
Benn, Wedgwood Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Kelly, W. T.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Kennedy, T.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Kirkwood, D.
Broad, F. A. Griffith, F. Kingsley Lawrence, Susan
Bromfield, William Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lawson, John James
Bromley, J. Grundy, T. W. Lowth, T.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Lunn, William
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hardie, George D. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)
Buchanan, G. Hayday, Arthur Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Henderson, T. (Glasgow) MacNeill-Weir, L.
Clarke, A. B. Hirst, G. H. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Cluse, W. S. Hollins, A. Maxton, James
Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives) Tinker, John Joseph
Morris, R. H. Saklatvala, Shapurji Tomlinson, R. P.
Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Scrymgeour, E. Townend, A. E.
Mosloy, Sir Oswald Shield, G. W. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Naylor, T. E. Shiels, Dr. Drummond Wellock, Wilfred
Oliver, George Harold Shinwell, E. Westwood, J.
Owen, Major G. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness) Whiteley, W.
Ponsonby, Arthur Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Potts, John S. Snell, Harry Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Purcell, A. A. Stamford, T. W. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Stephen, Campbell
Riley, Ben Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Sutton, J. E. Mr. Hayes and Mr. A. Barnes.

Further Amendments made:

In page 66, line I, leave out the words "him necessary or expedient," and insert instead thereof the words "the Secretary of State necessary."

In page 66, leave out lines 3 to 5.—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Amendment proposed:

In page 66, to leave out from the word

"order," in line 6, to the end of the Sub-section, and to insert instead thereof the words: make any adaptations or modifications of the provisions of any Act necessary to bring those provisions into conformity with the provisions of this Act."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 176; Noes, 91.

Division No. 259.] AYES. [10.46 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fairfax, Captain J. G. Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard Herman
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lumley, L. R.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Fanshawe, Captain G. D. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen
Apsley, Lord Fermoy, Lord Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fielden, E. B. Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart)
Atkinson, C. Ford, Sir P. J. MacIntyre, Ian
Balniel, Lord Foster, Sir Harry S. Macquisten, F. A.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Gates, Percy Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Bethel, A. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Betterton, Henry B. Golf, Sir Park Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Gower, Sir Robert Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Boothby, R. J. G. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grant, Sir J. A. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Moreing, Captain A. H.
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Briscoe, Richard George Greene, W. P. Crawford Murchison, Sir Kenneth
Brittain, Sir Harry Grotrian, H. Brent Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hacking, Douglas H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Hamilton, Sir George Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Hammersley, S. S. Nuttall, Ellis
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harrison, G. J. C. Oakley, T.
Burman, J. B. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Campbell, E. T. Haslam, Henry C. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Carver, Major W. H. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Cassels, J. D. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Pennefather, Sir John
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hills, Major John Waller Power, Sir John Cecil
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Price, Major C. W. M.
Chapman, Sir S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Radford, E. A.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hopkins, J. W. W. Raine, Sir Walter
Christie, J. A. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Reid, D. D. (County Down)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Remer, J. R.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiteh'n) Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Conway, Sir W. Martin Hume, Sir G. H. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes., Stretford)
Couper, J. B. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Ropner, Major L.
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Iveagh, Countess of Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Dalkeith, Earl of King, Commodore Henry Douglas Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rye, F. G.
Eden, Captain Anthony Lamb, J. Q. Salmon, Major I.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Sandeman, N. Stewart
Ellis, R. G. Loder, J. de V. Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Looker, Herbert William Sandon, Lord
Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Lougher, Sir Lewis Savery, S. S.
Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfraw, W.) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down) Templeton, W. P. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Skelton, A. N. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland) Withers, John James
Smith-Carington, Neville W. Thomson, Sir Frederick Womersley, W. J.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Tinne, J. A. Wright, Brig-General W. D.
Stanley, Lieut. Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F. Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland) Warrender, Sir Victor
Storry-Deans, R. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Wayland, Sir William A. Captain Margesson and Captain Wallace.
Styles, Captain H. Walter Wells, S. R.
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, George D. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayday, Arthur Ponsonby, Arthur
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Henderson, T. (Glasgow) Potts, John S.
Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Batty, Joseph Hollins, A. Riley, Ben
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)
Bellamy, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Benn, Wedgwood Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Scrymgeour, E.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) John, William (Rhondda, West) Shield, G. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Broad, F. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bromfield, William Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J. Kelly, W. T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G. Lawrence, Susan Stephen, Campbell
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lawson, John James Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Clarke, A. B. Lowth, T. Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Tomlinson, R. P.
Day, Harry Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Townend, A. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacNeill-Weir, L. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Wellock, Wilfred
Gillett, George M. Maxton, James Westwood, J.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morris, R. H. Whiteley, W.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Griffith, F. Kingsley Mosley, Sir Oswald Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Naylor, T. E. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Owen, Major G. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Hayes and Mr. A. Barnes.

Amendment made:

In page 66, line 18, at the end, insert the words: (4) An order under the foregoing provisions of this Section shall not be made after the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and thirty-one."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Amendment, proposed:

In line 20, after the word "section," to insert the words: or under Sub-section (2) of Section two or Sub-section (1) of Section seventeen or Subsection (2) of Section sixty-three of this Act."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 179; Noes, 91.

Division No. 260.] AYES. [10.54 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Edmondson, Major A. J.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Burman, J. B. Elliot, Major Walter E.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Campbell, E. T. Ellis, R. G.
Apsley, Lord Carver, Major W. H. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cassels, J. D. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Atkinson, C. Cautley, Sir Henry S. Fairfax, Captain J. G.
Balniel, Lord Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Fanshawe, Captain G. D.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Fermoy, Lord
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Chapman, Sir S. Fielden, E. B.
Bethel, A. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Ford, Sir P. J.
Betterton, Henry B. Christie, J. A. Foster, Sir Harry S.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Boothby, R. J. G. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Gates, Percy
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gilmour, Lt Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive Colfox, Major Wm. Philip Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Briscoe, Richard George Conway, Sir W. Martin Goff, Sir Park
Brittain, Sir Harry Couper, J. B. Gower, Sir Robert
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I. Dalkeith, Earl of Grant, Sir J. A.
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Davies, Dr. Vernon Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Eden, Captain Anthony Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter
Greene, W. P. Crawford Macdonald, R. (Glasgow, Cathcart) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John MacIntyre, Ian Rye, F. G.
Grotrian, H. Brent Macmillan, Captain H. Salmon, Major I.
Hacking, Douglas H. Macquisten, F. A. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) MacRobert, Alexander M. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Hamilton, Sir George Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel- Sanders, Sir Robert A.
Hammersley, S. S. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Sandon, Lord
Harrison, G. J. C. Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn Savory, S. S.
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Haslam, Henry C. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Simms, Dr. John M. (Co. Down)
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Skelton, A. N.
Heneage, Lieut.-Col. Arthur P. Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Henn, Sir Sydney H. Moreing, Captain A. H. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Hills, Major John Waller Murchison, Sir Kenneth Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Nall, Colonel Sir Joseph Storry-Deans, R.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hopkins, J. W. W. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Styles, Captain H. Walter
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hon. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld.) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Nuttall, Ellis Templeton, W. P.
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Oakley, T. Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Thomson, Sir Frederick
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Tinne, J. A.
Hume, Sir G. H. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Wallace, Captain D. E.
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Pennefather, Sir John Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Iveagh, Countess of Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Warrender, Sir Victor
Kindersley, Major G. M. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
King, Commodore Henry Douglas Power, Sir John Cecil Wayland, Sir William A.
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Price, Major C. W. M. Wells, S. R.
Lamb, J. Q. Radford, E. A. Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)
Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Raine, Sir Walter Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Reid, D. D. (County Down) Withers, John James
Loder, J. de V. Remer, J. R. Womersley, W. J.
Looker, Herbert William Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wright, Brig.-General W. D.
Lougher, Sir Lewis Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Yerburgh, Major Robert D. T.
Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harmon Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Lumley, L. R. Robinson, Sir T. (Lanes, Stretford) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Ropner, Major L. Captain Margesson and Captain Bowyer.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
NOES.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Owen, Major G.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hardie, George D. Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery) Hayday, Arthur Ponsonby, Arthur
Barnes, A. Hayes, John Henry Potts, John S.
Barr, J. Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Batey, Joseph Hollins, A. Riley, Ben
Beckett, John (Gateshead) Hore-Belisha, Leslie Runciman, Hilda (Cornwall, St. Ives)
Bellamy, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Saklatvala, Shapurji
Benn, Wedgwood Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Scrymgeour, E.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) John, William (Rhondda, West) Shield, G. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Johnston, Thomas (Dundee) Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Broad, F. A. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bromfield, William Jones, W. N. (Carmarthen) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromley, J. Kelly, W. T. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, T. Snell, Harry
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kirkwood, D. Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G. Lawrence, Susan Stephen, Campbell
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel Lawson, John James Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Clarke, A. B. Lowth, T. Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Lunn, William Tinker, John Joseph
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Tomlinson, R. P.
Day, Harry Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Townend, A. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) MacNeill-Weir, L. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Wellock, Wilfred
Gillett, George M. Maxton, James Westwood, J.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morris, R. H. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Griffith, F. Kingsley Mosley, Sir Oswald Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Naylor, T. E.
Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Whiteley.

Question put, and agreed to.