HC Deb 04 February 1929 vol 224 cc1535-53
Dr. DRUMMOND SH1ELS

I beg to move, in page 2, line 21, to leave out paragraph (b)

It will be agreed that the changes in local government in Scotland which this Bill proposes are very much greater than those made by the corresponding Bill in England. It has been difficult to know why these very drastic changes in local government are being made in Scotland, because they do not seem to have any real or necessary relation to the de-rating proposals of the Bill. The changes in regard to education and the transfer of the functions of the smaller burghs, especially, do not seem to have any justification, and have little relation to de-rating.

It will prove, I am sure, that the proposal to transfer the functions of the smaller burghs to the county councils will be the most damaging feature in the Bill so far as the prospects of the Government are concerned. For hundreds of years these smaller burghs have been places of efficient government. They were, in ancient times, places of safety and refuge for the inhabitants of the uncivilised landward areas, to whose descend-ants they are now to be handed over. Some of these transferred functions are not important; some of them are; but the cumulative effect of the cutting out of duties which these bodies have carried out efficiently in the past is to insult these burghs, to decrease their dignity, and to weaken in influence what are valuable and historic administrative units. Besides, the main functions of local government are more efficiently carried out by the burghs than by the county councils. There are exceptions on each side, but, broadly, the burghs are more efficient, especially the larger ones.

This is quite natural. Why should it not be so? After all, the county councils are only comparative upstarts! They only date from 1889—a mere 40 years ago! The burghs have been in existence for hundreds of years, and carry with them a great deal of Scottish history. In these burghs there is a great tradition of public service, and the burgesses have an honourable ambition to take part in the management of their own towns. That is of some value! The high standard of public service which is associated with the importance attached to local government is of considerable effect in producing and maintaining efficiency. The personnel of these small burghs is excellent. The representatives are of considerable ability, and nave great zeal for public work. As I have said, their pride in the History of their burgh causes them to maintain a high standard, and it results in a greater efficiency of local government.

Take one of the functions which is to be transferred—the function of river pollution. What is the position with regard to river pollution? The burghs have been, generally, as far as they can be, zealous and anxious about this matter. County councils have been most unsatisfactory, and one could quote instances of where burghs have called the attention of the county councils again and again to the pollution of the rivers which came through those burghs and which not only spoilt very considerably the amenity, but which also lowered the standard of public health. Yet it is proposed to hand over this function from the burghs to the county councils which, up to now, have shown little or no interest in the subject. Then, in regard to matters like the inspection of food, milk, and so on, I think the direct representatives of the people who have to eat the food and drink the milk are more likely to be anxious about its quality than the people who reside in some distant part of the county.

The Government will be making a very serious mistake indeed if they carry their proposals as they are in the Bill. I hope they will he induced to accept some of the Amendments, bringing down the figure from 20,000 to a lower figure. There are 22 burghs which have populations exceeding 10,000 and under 20,000. These contain names which are historic in Scotland, and they are well known to he efficiently managed at the present time. It is interesting to note that Members of the party opposite are beginning to get very anxious about this part of the Bill. That is why one sees that the Government have been stupid to make such unnecessary proposals in regard to the smaller burghs. Take the bonder burghs like Galashiels, Hawick and Selkirk. One knows the local patriotism there, and the pride in local traditions, which has nothing comparable to it south of the Tweed. They are proud of their traditions; they are proud of their efficiency, and they have good reason to be. With regard to housing and other matters, they have set a very fine example to the county councils round about. Yet all of these burghs are to be swept away under this Bill. What has been the result? The Noble Earl who represents Roxburgh and Selkirk (Earl of Dalkeith) has had an exciting and anxious time, and he has had to use all the tact which he possesses in an endeavour to smooth things over. But he has not succeeded! The Government have been unkind to him, and they have put him at a disadvantage in regard to these proposals.

I have the honour to represent the historic burgh of Musselburgh. It is one of the largest of the burghs that will be shut out. I think it is the largest, and it has always been efficiently conducted. It is anxious about the treatment which it is likely to get, because, what is the position? The position is that these larger burghs, just below the 20,000 level, are going to be the milch cows of the county councils, and they are going to supply them with the funds which the county councils spend. Any new proposals, any new ventures, which require more money, will be financed by the rating of the householders and shopkeepers of these smaller burghs. I am not surprised to see on the Paper Amendments in the name of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ayr Burghs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore) in regard to Prestwick and Troon. We have, within the last few days, been celebrating the birthday of Robert Burns, and I am sure that no one could have been more eloquent than our national bard had he been proposing the Amendment which I am putting forward. I am not surprised that the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Ayr has found it necessary to ask that these historic places, associated with a district which has always stood for freedom and independence should be left out of the engulfing proposals of the Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Argyllshire (Mr. Macquisten) has, we know, the most patriotic sentiments and we are aware that he would consent to any scheme which he thought would be in the interest of Scotland, and yet he has put down Amendments to exclude Dunoon and Oban from this proposal. In view of the support which the hon. and learned Member gives to the Government, and in view of the joy which he causes to hon. Members of this House, it would be unfortunate to jeopardise his prospects at the next election by pressing these proposals forward.

There are other Members on the Government side who, although they have not put down specific Amendments in regard to burghs in their districts, are feeling very unhappy at this proposal. They do not think it is necessary or that it is necessarily bound up with the more fundamental proposals of the Bill. I suggest that if the Government were to pass this Amendment they would be allaying what is a very real and serious anxiety felt by the burghs of Scotland. Their functions are not only to be transferred but the burghal representatives in the re-constituted county councils, are to be on a lower plane than the landward Members. They are not to be permitted to vote on all subjects, hut only on subjects which concern services in operation in their own burghs. The Convention of Burghs, under Sir Henry Keith's leadership have, to their honour, and quite independently of party, raised the standard of revolt. We gladly here express that revolt, not as party men, for although we are always glad to have an opportunity of attacking the Government, or of finding some occasion of grievance against them, we have so many of these occasions, so much material against the Government, that we are really embarrassed and do not require anything more. It is quite impossible during an ordinary political speech to deal with more than half of the counts against the Government, and it is annoying to have to leave so many out.

We have moved this Amendment, not as party men, but as Scotsmen, and as sympathisers with the revolt of the smaller burghs and with their desire to maintain their personality and independence and to be allowed to go on doing that efficient public work which has been the admiration of Scotsmen for many generations. I suggest that the local government proposals of this Bill are quite uncalled for, and that the Government would be wise, in their own interests to accept this Amendment.

Sir J. GILMOUR

The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Dr. Shiels), in moving this Amendment, used language of very great exaggeration and of a provocative nature, quite uncalled for, in referring to those institutions of our country which, whatever their failings and shortcomings may be, have earned the confidence and respect of a large part of the population of our country. Speaking as a Scotsman, I deprecate the use of language which will lead people to think that the population outside the burghs are uncivilised.

Dr. SHIELS

That was ancient history.

Sir J. GILMOUR

Historic or not, what is the object of using historic references of that kind as applicable to this period? It is done for one sole reason and object, and I am bound to say that I think it was hardly worthy of the nature of the Amendment which the hon. Member was moving. I do not know of any medical man of any standing, nor do I know of any great Commission or Committee of Inquiry which has been held in reference to the problems of the larger health ser- vices of our country, who have not ad vised and repeatedly urged that there should he larger areas. Some hon. Members and some members of the public outside have felt constrained to say that it is unjust, unreasonable, and uncalled for that there should be any unification between those who represent the burghs and the counties, in the interests of the general public, because, forsooth, in their opinion the burghs have always administered their affairs without reproach. I am not going to say that there does not lie some measure of reproach for neglect of some of these services both upon the burghs and the counties; but I will add this; the argument that because a burgh has admirably and properly and effectively and efficiently administered these services on that account no change to deal with altered conditions should ever take place is no argument, and there is no justification why, because of that, this opportunity should not be taken of bringing into a wider area and linking up with the districts surrounding, that burgh however efficient its administration.

I ask Members of this Committee to pause for one moment and to consider what is the object of the Bill. It is not for the aggrandisment or setting up of this or that unit of administration, but for the unification of the whole of the service in such a way as will prove beneficial to the general public. Because one burgh may have an efficient hospital, or maternity service, can anyone say, looking to the modern conditions in which we live, that there is not going to be the possibility of the widening of that service and bringing the surrounding areas into it? It is not true to claim that county councils are inefficient. If reference is made to questions like river pollution, it should be remembered that there have been cases in which the counties have had to take legal action against the burghs. The truth is that we are setting up new bodies, freshly constituted bodies, representing both the county and the burghs.

The hon. Member who spoke last made reference to my Noble Friend the Member for Roxburgh and Selkirk (Earl of Dalkeith), and appeared to think that he should express sympathy with my Noble Friend. I think there is no ground upon which that is called for, and I shall explain why. If you take the counties of Roxburgh and Selkirk, what is going to be the constitution of the new county council, this new authority? I have here a White Paper which we have issued to all these authorities. It is true that this is merely a draft constitution, and a suggestion issued to all the authorities in Scotland, and it will receive their criticism and comment. It is not to be taken, of course, as in any way a completely final form, but I venture to say that it is calculated upon such factors as will commend themselves to the great majority of local authorities and that, whatever alterations may be made in the figures and numbers, they will be comparatively small. If we take the newly constituted Roxburgh authority, the landward electoral division will consist of 19 representatives, and the small burghs of 17, making a total of 36. It will be seen at once that the small burghs are going to play a very large and important part in the policy and administration with which they will be entrusted. In the case of Selkirk, the landward electoral division which is suggested would be seven, and the small burghs 17. In that case, obviously by far the most powerful influence and control in that newly-constituted body will be that of the very small burghs—more than two to one.

When this matter was being considered various points of view were put to me, and, after consideration, I decided that the administration of housing, water and sewerage would be left to the burghs subject always to a proper regard for the general interest, not only of the particular burgh, but of the surrounding areas. It, therefore, cannot be said that any blow has been struck at the dignity or efficiency of these small burghs. They are being left, so long as they are efficient, with the control of these important services, and they are being asked—indeed directed—to co-operate with the surrounding areas in the great services of hospitals and main roads. When these facts are realised, neither here nor in Scotland can it be said that anything has been done derogatory to the ancient history, traditions, or standing of these burghs, whether they are Royal, Parliamentary or police burghs. In my judgment this is not a question of the amour propre of any individual or any unit. It lies within the province of the House of Commons to make the most efficient machine for the circumstances and the problems with which we have to deal, and I submit that that has been done.

Sir A. SINCLAIR

Nothing lies between these Royal and Parliamentary and police burghs and that deprivation of the powers which they have inherited through long centuries of efficient service to the public, but the decision of this Committee and though it was very able, never did I listen to a less convincing indictment than that levelled by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State. What is the charge against these small burghs? Are they negligent? Does the right hon. Gentleman give us any instances of negligence? Are they inefficient? Are they extravagant? Any one of these counts the right hon. Gentleman might have tried to prove, if he had any case against these small burghs but on none of them has he a word to say. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about health and criticised my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Dr. Shiels). Do the health statistics of these burghs compare badly with those of the counties and large burghs? On the contrary, they compare very well indeed. It is not the fact judging by any standard you can take, that they are inefficient. On the contrary, these small communities have devoted themselves with skill, keenness

and local patriotism to the development of all these services.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Roxburgh and Selkirk. Let us look at the figures. We find that a council of 15 in Selkirk would be reduced, in their influence over these services which they have built up in the burgh of Selkirk, to a representation of five members on this new-fangled council of the right hon. Gentleman. In Roxburgh the burghs of Jedburgh, Kelso and Melrose would be reduced to two members, three members and two members respectively. [Laughter.] Some hon. Members opposite treat all this with hilarity, but the Noble Lord the Member for Roxburgh and Selkirk (Earl of Dalkeith) will not treat it with hilarity. This proposal is one of the most indefensible in this Measure and we have no hesitation in opposing it. We are only sorry that we have not a longer time in which to tear it still further to shreds and tatters.

It being half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th December, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.

Question put, "That the words 'the functions,' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 215; Noes, 106.

Division No. 161.] AYES. [10.30 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Carver, Major W. H. Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Cassels, J. D. Everard, W. Lindsay
Albery, Irving James Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Fanshawe, Captain G. D.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Fielden, E. B.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Ford, Sir P. J.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Chapman, Sir S. Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Applin, Colonel B. V. K. Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Forrest, W.
Apeley, Lord Clarry, Reginald George Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Ashley. Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Clayton, G. C. Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Atkinson, C. Cobb, Sir Cyril Galbraith, J. F. W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Ganzonl, Sir John
Balniel, Lord Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Gates, Percy
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Gilmour, Colonel Rt. Han. Sir John
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Conway, Sir W. Martin Cower, Sir Robert
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cooper, A. Duff Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Couper, J. B. Grant, Sir J. A.
Berry, Sir George Courtauld, Major J. S. Greene, W. p. Crawford
Betterton, Henry B. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E)
Birchall, Major J. Dearman cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Grenfell, Edward C. (City of Londan)
Blundell, F. N. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Hacking, Douglas H.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)
Briggs, J. Harold Dalkeith, Earl of Hamilton, Sir George
Brittain, Sir Harry Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hammersley, S. S.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Davies, Dr. Vernon Hanbury, C.
Brown-Lindsay, Major H. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, s.) Harland, A.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Dawson, Sir Philip Harrison, G. J. C.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Dixey, A. C. Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington)
Buchan, John Eden, Captain Anthony Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.
Buckingham, Sir H. Edmondson, Major A. J. Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley)
Bullock, Captain M. Elliot, Major Walter E. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian
Burman, J. B. Ellis, R. G. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Honn, Sir Sydney H. Maitland, Sir. Arthur D. Steel- Shepperson, E. W.
Hennessy, Major Sir C. R. J. Margesson, Captain D. Skelton, A. N.
Hills, Major John Waller Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Hilton, Cecil Meller, R. J. Somerville, A. A (Windsor)
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Werw'k, Nun.) Meyer, Sir Frank Sprot, Sir Alexander
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Milne, J. S. Wardlaw- Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F
Hopkins, J. W. W. Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Stanley, Hon. O. f. G. (Westm'eland)
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M Streatfeild, Captain S. R.
Howard-Bury, Colonel, C. K. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Moore, Sir Newton J. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hudson, R.S. (Cumberl'and, Whiteh'n) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hume, Sir G. H. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Nelson, Sir Frank Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Hurd, Percy A. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Tinne, J. A.
Hurst, Gerald B. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Nuttall, Ellis Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Oakley, T. Turton, Sir Edmund Ruseborough
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon Cuthbert O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Vaughan-Morgan, Col. K. P.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Wallace, Captain D. E.
Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Kindersley, Major Guy M. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Warrender, Sir Victor
King, Commodore Henry Douglas Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Power, Sir John Cecil Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Knox, Sir Alfred Ramsden, E. Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Lamb, J. Q. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Watts, Sir Thomas
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Remer, J. R. Wayland, Sir William A.
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Rhys, Hon. C. A. U. Wells, S. R.
Loder, J. de V. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) White, Lieut.-Col. Sir G. Dalrymple-
Long, Major Eric Roberta, E. H. G. (Flint) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Lucas-Tooth, sir Hugh Vere Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford) Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Luce, Major-Gen. sir Richard Harmas Ropner, Major L. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds Central)
Lumley, L. R. Ross, R. D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Withers, John James
Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Womersley, W. J.
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Sandeman, N. Stewart Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
McLean, Major A. Sandon, Lord
Macquisten, F. A. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
MacRobert, Alexander M. Savery, S. S. Captain Bowyer and Mr. Penny.
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl.(Renfrew, W.)
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Potts, John S.
Alexander, A V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Ritson, J.
Ammon, Charles George Hardle, George D. Runciman, Rt. Hon, Walter
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilsfon) Harris, Party A. Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A. Hayday, Arthur Scurr, John
Barr, J. Hayes, John Henry Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph Hirst, G. H. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Bellamy, A. Hollins A. Shinwell, E.
Benn, Wedgwood Hors-Bellsha, Leslie Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bowerman, Rt. Hen. Charles W. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Broad, F. A. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Smillie, Robert
Bromfield, William John, William (Rhondda, west) Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Bromley, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Jones, T. J. Mardy (Pontypridd) Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G. Kelly, W. T. Stewart, J (St. Rollox)
Charleton, H. C. Kennedy, T. Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Kirkwood, D. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Cove, W. G. Lansbury, George Tomlinson, R. P.
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lawrence, Susan Townend, A. E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawson, John James Viant, S. P.
Duncan, C. Les, F. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Edge, Sir William Lindley, F. W. Wellock, Wilfred
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Lowth, T. Welsh, J. C.
Evahs, Capt. Ernest (Wersh Univer.) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Westwood, J.
Fenby, T. D Mackinder, W. Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Gardner, J. P. MacLareh, Andrew Wilkinson, Elian C.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Gillett, George M. MacNeill-Weir, L. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maxton, James Wilson, H. J. (Jarrow)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Mitchell, E. Rosslyn (Paisley) Windsor, Walter
Greenall, T. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wright, W.
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coine) Mosley, Sir Oswald Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Murnin, H.
Griffith, F. Kingaley Oliver, George Harold TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Groves, T. Palin, John Henry Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Grundy, T. W. Parkinson, John Allan (Wigan) Henderson.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Ponsonby, Arthur

The CHAIEMAN then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments' moved by the Government of which notice had been given and the Question necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's Sitting.

Amendment made:

In page 2, line 34, after the word "churchyard," insert the words "so far as."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Amendment proposed:

In page 2, line 38, at the end, to insert the words:

"(f) the functions of the town council of any large burgh under the Registration of Births, Deaths, and Marriages Acts so far as relating to any area outwith the burgh and within the county."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 104.

Division No. 162.] AYES. [10.40 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Erskine, James Malcolm Monteith Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Everard, W. Lindsay McLean, Major A
Albery, Irving James Falle, Sir Bertram G. Macquisten, F. A.
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Fanshawe, Captain G. D. MacRobert, Alexander M.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Fielden, E. B. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Ford, Sir P. J. Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Margesson, Captain D.
Applin, Colonel R. V. K. Forrest, W. Marriott, Sir J. A. R.
Apsley, Lord Fraser, Captain Ian Meller, R. J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Atkinson, C. Gadie, Lieut. Col. Anthony Meyer, Sir Frank
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Galbraith, J. F. W. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Balniel, Lord Ganzonl, Sir John Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gates, Percy Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Gower, Sir Robert Moore, Sir Newton J.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Bennett, A. J. Grant, Sir J. A. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)
Berry, Sir George Greene, W. P. Crawford Nelson, Sir Frank
Betterton, Henry B. Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (W'th's'w, E) Neville, Sir Reginald J.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Blundell, F. N. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Nuttall, Ellis
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Hacking, Douglas H. Oakley, T.
Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton)
Brassey, Sir Leonard Hamilton, Sir George O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Briggs, J. Harold Hammersley, S. S. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Brittain, Sir Harry Hanbury, C. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Harland, A. Peto, G. (Somerset, Freme)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Harrison, G. J. C. Pilcher, G.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Power, Sir John Cecil
Brown, Brig.-Gen. HC(Berks, Newb'y) Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Ramsden, E.
Buchan, John Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Reld, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington)
Buckingham, Sir H. Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Remer, J. R.
Burman, J. B. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Carver, Major W. H. Henn, Sir Sydney H. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Cassels, J. D. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hills, Major John Waller Roberts, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hilton, Cecil Ropner, Major L.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ross, R. D.
Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k. Nun.) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Cbapman, Sir S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Charteris, Brigadier-General J. Hopkins, J. W. W. Sandeman, N. Stewart
Clarry, Reginald George Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Sandon, Lord
Clayton, G. C. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.) Savery, S. S.
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hudson, R. S. (Cumberl'nd, Whiten'n) Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W.)
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Hume, Sir G. H. Shepperson, E. W.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Skelton, A. N.
Conway, Sir W. Martin Hurd, Percy A. Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Cooper, A. Duff Hurst, Gerald B. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Couper, J. B. Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Sprot, Sir Alexander
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islingtn, N.) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Kennedy, A. R. (Preston) Streatfelld, Captain S. R.
Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Kindersley, Major Guy M. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro) King, Commodore Henry Douglas Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Dalkeith, Earl of Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sueter, Roar-Admiral Murray Fraser
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Knox, Sir Alfred Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Lamb, J. Q. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Tinne, J. A.
Dawson, Sir Philip Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Dixey, A. C. Loder, J. de V. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Eden, Captain Anthony Long, Major Eric Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vere Vaughan-Morgan. Col. K. P.
Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington) Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L.(Kingston-on-Hull)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Lumley, L. R. Warrender, Sir Victor
Ellis, R. G. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Watson, Sir F. (Pudssy and Otlay) White, Lieut.-Col Sir G. Dalrymple Withers, John James
Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle) Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) Womersley, W. J.
Watts, Sir Thomas Williams, Herbert G. (Reading) Woodcock, Colonel H. C.
Wayland, Sir William A. Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central)
Walls, S. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hardie, George D. Potts, John S.
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Harris, Percy A. Ritson, J.
Amman, Charles George Hayday, Arthur Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hayes, John Henry Scrymgeour, E.
Barnes, A. Hirst, G. H. Scurr, John
Barr, J. Hollins, A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Batey, Joseph Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Bellamy, A. Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwell, E.
Benn, Wedgwood Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Broad, F. A. Jonas, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smillie, Robert
Bromfield, William Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Bromley, J. Kelly, W. T. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell
Buchanan, G. Kirkwood, D. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Charleton, H. C. Lansbury, George Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S. Lawrence, Susan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawson, John James Tomilnson, R. P.
Duncan, C. Lee, F. Townend, A. E.
Edge, Sir William Lindley, F. W. Viant, S. P.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer.) Lowth, T. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Fenby, T. D. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Wellock, Wilfred
Gardner, J. P. Macdonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Welsh, J. C.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. Mackinder, W. Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M. MacLaren, Andrew Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm.(Edin., Cent.) MacNeill-Weir, L. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Greenall, T. Maxton, James Wilson, C. H, (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins) Mitchell, E. Rossiyn (Paisley) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Granted, D. R. (Glamorgan) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Windsor, Walter
Griffith, F. Kingsley Mosley, Sir Oswald Wright, W.
Groves, T. Murnin, H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Oliver, George Harold
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Palin, John Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T.
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Ponsonby, Arthur Henderson.

Further Amendment made:

In page 3, line 11, leave out the word "may," and insert instead thereof the word"shall."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 104.

Division No. 163.] AYES. [10.49 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Dalkeith, Earl of
Albery, Irving James Bushan, John Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Ysovil)
Alexander, E. E. (Leyton) Buckingham, Sir H. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bullock, Captain M. Dawson, Sir Philip
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman Burman, J. B. Dixey, A. C.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Carver, Major W. H. Eden, Captain Anthony
Applin, Colonel. R. V. K. Cassels, J. D. Edmondson, Major A. J.
Apsley, Lord Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Edwards, J. Hugh (Accrington)
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Eillot, Major Walter E.
Atkinson, C. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston) Ellis, R. G.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Erskine, James Malcolm Monfeith
Balniel, Lord Chapman, Sir S. Everard, W. Lindsay
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Charterls, Brigadier-General J. Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Barnett, Major Sir Richard Clarry, Reginald George Fanshawe, Captain G. D.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Clayton, G. C. Fielden, E. B.
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.) Cobb, Sir Cyril Ford, Sir P. J.
Bennett, A. J. Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Forestier-Walker, sir L.
Betterton, Henry B. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George Forrest, W.
Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cohen, Major J. Brunel Fraser, Captain Ian
Blundell, F. N. Conway, Sir W. Martin Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Cooper, A. Duff Gadie, Lieut.-Col. Anthony
Bowyer, Capt. G. E. W. Couper, J. B. Galbraith, J. F. W.
Brassey, Sir Leonard Courtauld, Major J. S. Ganzoni, Sir John
Briggs, J. Harold Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Gates, Percy
Brittain, Sir Harry Cowan, Sir Wm. Henry (Islington, N.) Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend) Gower, Sir Robert
Broun-Lindsay, Major H. Crookshank, Col. C. de W. (Berwick) Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grant, Sir J. A. Long, Major Erie Ruggles, Brise, Lieut-Colonel E. A.
Greene, W. P. Crawfore Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh Vera Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Luce, Maj-Gen. Sir Richard Harman Sandeman, N. Stewart
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter R. Lumley, L. R. Sandon, Lord
Hacking, Douglas H. MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.
Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.) Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Savery, S. S.
Hamilton, Sir George McLean, Major A. Shaw, Lt.-Col. A.D. Mcl. (Renfrew, W)
Hanbury, C. Macquisten, F. A. Shepperson, E. W.
Harland, A. MacRobert, Alexander M. Skeiton, A. N.
Harrison, G. J. C. Maitland, A. (Kent, Favartham) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Harvey, G. (Lambeth, Kennington) Maitland, Sir Arthur D. steel Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Headiam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M. Margesson, Captain D. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Marriott, Sir J. A. R. Sprot, Sir Alexander
Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian Meller, R. J. Stanley, Lieut. Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'sland)
Henn, Sir Sydney H. Meyer, Sir Frank Streatfelld, Captain S. R.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. D. J. Milne, J. S. Wardlaw. Stuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Hills, Major John Waller Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hilton, Cecil Monseil, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray Fraser
Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Moore, Lieut-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)
Hope, Capt. A. O. J. (Warw'k, Nun.) Moore, Sir Newton J. Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Moora-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Tinne, J. A.
Hopkins, J. W. W. Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury) Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of
Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Messley) Nelson, Sir Frank Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Neville, Sir Reginald J. Turton, Edmund Russborough
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeten) Vaughan-Morgan. Col. K. P.
Hudson, R. S. (Cumberlnd, Whiteh'n) Nuttall, Eills Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Hume, Sir G. H. Oakley, T. Warrenaer, Sir Victor
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Ayhuer O'Connor, T. J. (Bedford, Luton) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Hurd, Percy A. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Hurst, Gerald B. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon William Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)
Inskip, Sir Thomas Walker H. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wayland, Sir William A.
Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l) Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome) Wells, S. R.
James, Lieut.-Colonal Mon, Cuthbert Pilcher, G. White, Lieut.-Col. sir G. Dalrymple-
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gten) Power, Sir John Cocil Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)
Kennedy, A. ft. (Preston) Ramsden, E. Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)
Kindersley, Major Guy M. Reid, Capt. Cunningham (Warrington) Wilson, Sir C. H. (Leeds, Central).
King, Commodore Henry Doaglas Remer, J. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Rnye, Hon. C. A. U. withers, John James
Knox, Sir Alfred Richardson, Sir R. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y) Womersley, W. J.
Lamb, J. Q. Roberts, E. H. G. (Flint) Woodcock, Colonel H. G.
Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley) Roberta, Sir Samuel (Hereford)
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ropner, Major L. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Leder, J. de V. Rose, R. D. Mr. Penny and Captain Wallace.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Ponsonby, Arthur
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro') Hamilton, sir R. (Orkney & Shetland) Potte, John S.
Ammon, Charles George Hardie, George D. Ritson, J.
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Harris, Percy A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Barnes, A. Hayday, Arthur Scrymgeour, E.
Barr, J. Hfrst, G. H. Scurr, John
Batey, Joseph Hoillne, A. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Bellamy, A. Hore-Bellsha, Ladie Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Benn, Wedgwood Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield) Shinwall, E.
Bowarman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Broad, F. A. John, William (Rnodda, West) Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Bromfield, William Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smillie, Robert
Bromley, J. Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Smith, Rennie (Penistene)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Kelly, W. T. Snewden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Buchanan, G. Kennedy, T. Stephen, Campbell
Charieton, H. C. Kirkwood, D. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Cluse, W. S. Lansbury, George Sutton, J. E.
Crawfurd, H. E. Lawrence, Sugan Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Dunsan, C. Lawson, John James Tomilnton, R. P.
Edge, Sir William Lee, F. Towneno, A. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lindley, F. W. Vient, S. P.
Evans, Capt. Brnest (Welsh Univer.) Lowth, T. Watson, W. M (Dunfermline)
Fenby, T. D. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon) Welleck, Wilfred
Gardner, J. P. Mackinder, W. Welsh, J. C.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M. MaoLaren, Andrew Westwood, J.
Gillett, George M. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Gevan) Wheatley. Rt. Hon. J.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) MacNeill-Welr, L. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Graham, Rt. Hon Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Maxton, James Williams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly)
Greenall, T. Mitchell, E. Rossiyn (Paisley) Wilson, C H. (Sheffield Atterllffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Mosley, Sir Oswald Windsor, Walter
Griffith, F. Kingsley Murnin, H. Wright, W.
Groves, T. Oliver, George Harold Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W. Palin, John Henry
Hall, F. (York, W. R. Normanton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) TELLERS FOR THE. NOES.—
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Hayes.

Resolved, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

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