§ Mr. GODFREY LOCKER-LAMPSONI beg to move, in page 7, line 24, after the word "subject," to insert the words:
to the consent of the insured person and.This Clause gives the Minister power to make regulations for the payment of contributions by workpeople who go abroad on contracts which are being carried out by firms in this country. In doing this, the Minister is going directly contrary to the recommendation of the Blanesburgh Committee, which she herself signed. On page 58 the Blanesburgh Committee say:It would have been agreeable to us to propose some change that would be of assistance in such cases. But to extend the scope of unemployment insurance to work abroad would, we are assured, give rise to serious practical difficulties. The collection of contributions, While in the cases referred to by the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation it might be possible, would, in most other cases, he exceedingly difficult; and any concession on this point must be general.In spite of that the right hon. Lady is taking power to levy contributions on these workpeople who are employed abroad. I have put down three Amendments which are in the nature of alternatives, in the hope that one of them at least may appeal to the right hon. Lady. The Amendment I am moving has the effect of making this insurance optional. 1076 The right hon. Lady told us on Monday last, I think, that under her regulations arrangements would be made whereby these contributions would be paid, but she has not told us how they are going to be paid, whether they will be paid week by week, or whether a lump sum is to be deducted when the man returns to this country. She also indicated that this Clause would be restricted to firms who are under contract to bring their men back. That is a very good plan, but there is nothing whatever about it in the Clause, and it will depend entirely on the right hon. Lady's regulation. Under the Clause as it stands a man after he has been employed abroad may be stranded there through sickness or lack of funds, and may not be able to get back to this country, and he will get no benefit. The right hon. Lady also told us on Monday last that this insurance would be optional, but there is nothing in the Clause about that, and that again, will depend entirely on the regulations.Much the most important thing which she told us on Monday was that no benefit will be paid abroad. However much a man may need benefit abroad, he cannot possibly get it according to what the Minister of Labour has told us. Administratively, it may be impossible to pay the benefit abroad, but at any rate that creates a differentiation between the man under insurance in this country and the man who is working abroad, and this is a very great disadvantage to the man who works abroad. I think it ought to be made clear that there is no compulsion upon anybody under these regulations to pay the contributions while a man is abroad. The right hon. Lady says that is her intention, and, if that is so, why not put it into the Bill? The whole thing is left to the regulations. This is all the more important, because the Amendment which was proposed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for North Hackney (Captain A. Hudson) providing that the regulations should be subject to a Resolution of the House of Commons was defeated. Now those regulations are merely going to be laid on the Table of the House, and that is no safeguard at all, because they always come up for consideration very late at night in a thin House, after the other business has been concluded. The right hon. Lady has definitely stated that it is her intention 1077 that the payment of contributions should be optional, and I cannot see why it should not be p at into the Bill.
§ Miss BONDFIELDI fully recognise the difficulty in connection with this matter, because it is an experiment. I am asking for power to enter into discussions as to the practical forms which regulations may take. The power for which I am asking is very limited. It is perfectly true that this matter was considered by the Blanesburgh Committee, and they put it aside because of the practical difficulties involved. We have had applications from the employers as well as from the trade unions in the engineering trade. This Clause wants to provide that where a firm is undertaking a contract, and that firm and its workers desire to continue in insurance, I shall have power to make regulations by which that particular firm, and any other firm that makes application, shall be permitted to pay its insurance in the ordinary way.
The question arises whether we are going to allow every workman to choose whether he will be insured or not. I do not think that is possible. If a firm and its workmen, by a majority, want to remain in insurance and pay their contributions, one man ought not to be allowed to prevent the firm from doing that. I want to make it clear that the only thing we are trying to obtain is power to frame regulations, as in the case of a firm having a contract undertaking to take so many people out of the country and both they and the workmen desiring to come into an arrangement to allow them to come in. I think the Amendment which is suggested would be too limiting even for that purpose, because it would suggest that every insured person is required to give a separate consent and one person would be able to contract out. It is on that account alone that I must resist the Amendment.
Earl WINTERTONI do not think that the Minister of Labour has dealt with the main point which was raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wood Green G. Locker-Lampson). We cannot permit the fact that we are short of time to allow a matter of this kind to go through without protest. Let me recapitulate the arguments used on this side of the House against the Clause in its present form, and the arguments 1078 in favour of this Amendment. In the first place, under the Clause you are making it conditional upon a man obtaining employment in certain industries that he should continue his contributions without receiving one penny of benefit in the country to which he may be going. The right hon. Lady has not answered that question, and she has refused to accept opinions expressed on this side of the House on that point. If there is an arrangement between her Department and any small class of workmen affected who are engaged in such work as bridge building and they are stranded abroad, why does she refuse to accept this limiting Amendment which will bring those men back? If those unfortunate men were stranded abroad through no fault of their own, the right hon. Lady has told me that she has no power by which it would be possible to pay out benefit to them. The Minister of Labour does not seem to have considered the case of paying these men through the British Consul. The arrangement is very unfair to a man offering himself for a job overseas, because he pays his contributions and cannot receive any benefit.
§ Miss BONDFIELDMay I point out to the Noble Lord that we are dealing now with people who are insured at this moment?
Earl WINTERTONThose who are insured here are not insured when they go abroad. Suppose that there is a bridge-building contract held by a firm in this country and by some misfortune the directors fail to fulfil the conditions of that contract and another firm has to take it on--the men in the employ of the first contractor are thrown out of work, and they cannot draw any benefit. If this Clause is adopted and a firm takes on a contract overseas under the same conditions, and it turns out that the firm cannot fulfil their contract, all those workmen are thrown out of work, and not one penny of benefit will go to them. Those men will become D.B.S.'s, that is to say, distressed British subjects, and that is not right. Although we are not discussing the whole Clause now, we say that in these circumstances it is only reasonable that a man should have an option of contracting out if he wishes to do so. The Minister of Labour has already told us that this Clause only applies to a small number of people. I 1079 asked the right hon. Lady a question about those employed in certain work like bridge building.
§ Miss BONDFIELDI said that the Clause, provided they were insured persons whoever had the contract, would make no difference and the same thing would apply.
Earl WINTERTONIf that be so, why does the right hon. Lady not put those words in the Bill? I think she has been very unreasonable in this matter, and, in view of the way in which she has just accepted an important manuscript Amendment from a Member of her own party, at any rate an Amendment which has been on the Order Paper for a very short time, I think she might accept this proposal which is only a limiting Amendment and gives the right of option to the individual. If we were not working under intolerable conditions we should have discussed this important matter at much greater length, because we do not think it is fair to ask men to accept work overseas under the conditions which are proposed. The right hon. Lady talks about getting the consent of the worker. I would like
§ to know how she is going to get that consent, because it can only be got through a mass meeting of the men.
§ Mr. LAWSONIt can be got through the workmen's organisations.
Earl WINTERTONHow can those organisations know what will happen overseas, because, when he is abroad, the man is not controlled by those organisations. If a man is working overseas, do the trade unions pay his benefit? Is that man to have all the privileges from the trade unions if he is working overseas? Hon Gentlemen opposite know that that is not so.
§ Mr. LAWSONThe trade unions are world-wide in their operations.
Earl WINTERTONI know that a man in the engineers union would not get his benefit while working in South America nor the trade union advantages which he enjoys in this country. I think it would be more reasonable if the right hon. Lady would accept this Amendment.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 134: Noes, 266.
1083| Division No. 104.] | AYES. | [7.59 p.m. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) |
| Albery, Irving James | Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) | Dixey, A. C. | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) |
| Astor, Maj. Hn. John J.(Kent, Dover) | Duckworth, G. A. V. | Llewellin, Major J. J. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Dugdale, Capt. T. L. | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey |
| Atkinson, C. | Edmondson, Major A. J. | Long, Major Eric |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Elliot, Major Walter E. | Lymington, Viscount |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Macquisten, F. A. |
| Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) | Ferguson, Sir John | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Fielden, E. B. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Fison, F. G. Clavering | Margesson, Captain H. D. |
| Berry, Sir George | Forestler-Walker, Sir L. | Marjoribanks, E. C. |
| Bird, Ernest Roy | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Ganzoni, Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Gower, Sir Robert | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Grace, John | Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive |
| Boyce, H. L. | Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Muirhead, A. J. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd'., Hexham) | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Buckingham, Sir H | Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Butler, R. A. | Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Power, Sir John Cecil |
| Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Purbrick, R. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J.A. (Birm.,W.) | Hartington, Marquess of | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Christie, J. A. | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Remer, John R. |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Hurd, Percy A. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cranbourne, Viscount | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Croft, Brigadler-General Sir H. | Iveagh, Countess of | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Knox, Sir Alfred | Skelton, A. N. |
| Davies, Dr. Vernon | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) | Turton, Robert Hugh | Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay) |
| Smith-Carington, Neville W. | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyan | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Smithers, Waldron | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland) | Warrender, Sir Victor | |
| Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur | Waterhouse, Captain Charles | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Stuart, J. C. (Moray and Nairn) | Wayland, Sir William A. | Sir George Penny and Marquess of Titchfield. |
| Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement | Wells, Sydney R. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Marley, J. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Granville, E. | Matters, L. W. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Gray, Milner | Maxton, James |
| Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) | Melville, Sir James |
| Alpass, J. H. | Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan} | Messer, Fred |
| Ammon, Charles George | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'W.) | Middleton, G. |
| Angell, Norman | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Millar, J. D. |
| Arnott, John | Groves, Thomas E. | Mills, J. E. |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Grundy, Thomas W. | Montague, Frederick |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. |
| Ayles, Walter | Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Morley, Ralph |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) | Mort, D. L. |
| Bellamy, Albert | Hardle, George D. | Moses, J. J. H. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Harris, Percy A. | Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) |
| Bennett, Capt. E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon | Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Muggeridge, H. T. |
| Benson, G. | Haycock, A. W. | Murnin, Hugh |
| Bentham, Dr. Ethel | Hayday, Arthur | Naylor, T. E. |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Hayes, John Henry | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Birkett, W. Norman | Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) |
| Bowen, J. W. | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Oliver, p. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Owen, H. F. (Hereford) |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Harriotts, J. | Palin, John Henry |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Palmer, E. T. |
| Bromfield, William | Hoffman, P. C. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Bromley, J. | Hollins, A. | Perry, S. F. |
| Brothers, M. | Hopkin, Daniel | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) | Hore-Belisha, Leslie. | Phillips, Dr. Marion |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Horrabin, J. F. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Pole, Major D. G. |
| Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) | Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Ponsonby, Arthur |
| Burgess, F. G. | Isaacs, George | Potts, John S. |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) | Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) | Price, M. P. |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Caine, Derwent Hall- | Johnston, Thomas | Raynes, W. R. |
| Cameron, A. G. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Richards, R. |
| Cape, Thomas | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Kelly, W. T. | Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chater, Daniel | Kennedy, Thomas | Ritson, J. |
| Clarke, J. S. | Kinley, J. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. | Knight, Holford | Romeril, H. G. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lathan, G. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Compton, Joseph | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Rothschild, J. de |
| Cove, William G. | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Rowson, Guy |
| Daggar, George | Lawrence, Susan | Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) |
| Dallas, George | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Dalton, Hugh | Lawson, John James | Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Sanders, W. S. |
| Day, Harry | Leach, W. | Sandham, E. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Dickson, T. | Lees, J. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Scurr, John |
| Dukes, C. | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Sexton, James |
| Duncan, Charles | Longden, F. | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Lowth, Thomas | Shield, George William |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lunn, William | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Elmley, Viscount | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Shinwell, E. |
| Forgan, Dr. Robert | McElwee, A. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | McEntee, V. L. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N) | Mackinder, W. | Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | McKinlay, A. | Sinkinson, George |
| Gibbins, Joseph | McShane, John James | Sitch, Charles H. |
| Gill, T. H. | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) |
| Glassey, A. E. | Mansfield, W. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Gosling, Harry | March, S. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Marcus, M. | Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley) |
| Gould, F. | Markham, S. F. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Smith, Tom (Pontefract) | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Smith, W. R. (Norwich) | Thurtle, Ernest | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip | Tillett, Ben | Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) |
| Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) | Tinker, John Joseph | West, F. R. |
| Sorensen, R. | Toole, Joseph | Westwood, Joseph |
| Spero, Dr. G. E. | Tout, W. J. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Stamford, Thomas W. | Townend, A. E. | Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) |
| Stephen, Campbell | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) | Turner, B. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Strachey, E. J. St. Loe | Vaughan, D. J. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Strauss, G. R. | Viant, S. P. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Sullivan, J. | Walker, J. | Wise, E. F. |
| Sutton, J. E. | Wallace, H. W. | Wright, W. (Rutherglen) |
| Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) | Wallhead, Richard C. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) | Watkins, F. C. | |
| Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline). | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Paling. |