Commons Sitting of 8 May 1928

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Caerphilly Urban District Council Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Regent's Canal and Dock Company (Grand Junction Canal Purchase) Bill,
Regent's Canal and Dock Company (Warwick Canals Purchase) Bill,
Rickmansworth and Uxbridge Valley Water Bill,
Zoological Society of London Bill,
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
London County Council (Money) Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS (CONSOLIDATION) BILL,
  Resolution of the House of the 25th day of April relative to the South Suburban Gas (Consolidation) Bill, which was ordered to be communicated to the Lords, and Message from the Lords of the 2nd day of May, signifying their concurrence in the said Resolution read.
  Order [23rd February] relating to the committal of the South Suburban Gas (Consolidation) Bill read and discharged, and Bill committed to the Joint Committee appointed for the consideration of the Dover Gas Bill [Lords].
  Ordered,
  "That all Petitions in favour of or against the Bill, presented three clear days before the meeting of the Committee, be referred to the Committee. That the Petitioners praying to be heard against the Bill, by themselves, their Counsel, Agents, or witnesses be heard, and Counsel be heard in support of the Bill."—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

  PRIVATE BILL (Lords).—(Standing Orders not previously inquired into and complied with.)
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of
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  Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely,
  South Essex Waterworks Bill [Lords].
  Bill to be read a Second time.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
  MERCANTILE MARINE.

    NATIONAL UNION OF SEAMEN.
    Mr. STEPHENasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that in certain cases sailors are only allowed to sign on on their ships on giving an I.O.U. authorising the shipowners to pay a sum of money to the National Union of Seamen; and whether he will take steps to prevent this practice?
    The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister): I understand that many shipowners have agreed to employ as seamen in their vessels only members of the National Union of Seamen, and that an arrangement is in force by which seamen desiring employment who are not members of the union, or whose subscriptions are in arrear, can get the privileges of membership on signing an authorisation for the union entrance fee, or arrears of subscription, to be deducted from their wages at the end of the voyage. The matter is not one which calls for intervention by the Board of Trade.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Seeing that the Government have taken steps to protect workmen against trade unions which they wish to join, would the Government not take steps also to prevent men being compelled to join unions which they do not wish to join?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. Even accepting that as a statement of the case, I think it is wise for the Board of Trade in this Administration to follow the lines adopted by the Board of Trade in the Socialist Administration.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Is the Minister aware that men who have been unemployed for a long time are sometimes compelled to pay as much as £2 or £2 10s. before they are allowed to obtain employment, and will the right hon. Gentleman not do something to protect these men?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have no power to intervene between a trade union organisation and its members.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Is it not a fact that the amounts deducted from the men are returned in the account of wages, and that the account of wages is a Board of Trade document; and does not that fact give the Board of Trade power to intervene?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No doubt the hon. Member, when a member of the Socialist Government, made all these representations to his colleagues in that Government.
    Sir ROBERT THOMAS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 95 per cent. of all British sailors and firemen are voluntarily members of the Sailors' and Firemen's Union and that it is the only union in this country that has not had a strike during the last quarter of a century?
    Mr. SHINWELL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the question addressed to him does not relate to the proposed intervention of his Government; and will he reply to my question, as to whether his Department is not bound to intervene where the account of wages, an official Government document, is used for purposes other than that for which it is intended?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: No, Sir. I am quite satisfied that the Board of Trade is not bound to intervene. If the hon. Member's argument is correct, it would have been as correct when addressed to his colleagues in the Socialist Government as it is addressed to the present Government.
    Mr. STEPHEN: I give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment.

    PILOTAGE RATES.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that shipowners regard pilotage charges,
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    particularly on the west coast of England and Wales, as being unreasonably high, especially in the case of coasting steamers; and whether he will institute a general inquiry into the pilotage rates of all the ports of the United Kingdom?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am aware that shipowners hold the view mentioned as regards pilotage charges in some of our ports, but, under the Pilotage Act of 1913, they can obtain full consideration of any representations they desire to advance. As I informed the hon. Member on 24th April, I do not think that a general inquiry into these charges would be useful.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Bristol Channel pilotage rates from Barry Roads are 94.7 per cent. higher than the charges of pre-War days?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I cannot answer off-hand questions of detail relating to comparative charges with anything like accuracy; but the very fact that he cites one example seems to show that the argument used by me on previous occasions is right, and that these matters are much more conveniently dealt with, as provided by Statute, by going into the individual cases where necessary rather than by general inquiry.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the rates in the West of England are fixed by the pilotage authorities on which the shipowners are well represented; and is he aware that in the case cited by the hon. Member for Anglesey (Sir R. Thomas) the pilots have to keep their vessels going at much greater cost than before the War and that the rates are well justified?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: All this seems to show how sound is the answer that each case should be investigated and decided; on its own merits.
    Sir R. THOMAS: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that a general inquiry is necessary, having regard to the great anomalies that exist—for instance a deeply-laden ship being charged the same rates as a lightly-laden ship?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I think the fact that hon. Members who take different views can produce such a

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    variety of instances based on differing circumstances shows how wise it is to deal with the individual cases, and not to attempt to deal with the matter in a general way.

  BUDGET.

    RATING RELIEF.
    Mr. LAWSONasked the President of the Board of Trade if he can give an approximate estimate of the amount per ton relief that will come to coal and steel as the result of the relief to productive concerns in respect of rates and freights?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Relief from three-quarters of the local rates would, for the year 1927, have been equivalent to about 2½d. a ton on the saleable coal raised. The proposed freight rate reduction would amount to about 4d. a ton on all coal carried by railways. Three-quarters of the local rates on collieries, coke ovens, iron ore and limestone mines, furnaces and rolling mills are equivalent to about 3s. a ton on finished steel, and the proposed freight rate reductions on coal, coke, ore and limestone are equivalent to about 1s. a ton on finished steel.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Since the suggested relief to collieries only approximates to 6½d. per ton, when the actual loss is about 1s. a ton, what advantage are the miners going to get out of this rating relief?
    Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEasked the Minister of Health whether he has any information as to the amount of rates paid annually by hospitals which are supported by voluntary contributions; and whether he will consider the possibility of relieving them of this burden when he brings in his proposals for the relief of rates in industries?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Sir Kingsley Wood): No complete statement of the amount of rates paid in respect of voluntary hospitals is available. In my right hon. Friend's opinion any proposal to de-rate voluntary hospitals must be considered in the light of past inquiries into that proposal and in relation to similar claims made on behalf of other
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    charitable and public institutions. It is not germane to the Government's proposals for giving relief from rating burdens to agriculture and industry.
    Mr. KELLYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate has been made as to the relief in rates by which he expects to relieve the engineering trade in October, 1929, under the Budget proposals?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I have been asked to reply. No comprehensive information is available, but on the basis of the available data it is roughly estimated that the direct relief to the engineering industry in respect of local taxation will be from £2 millions to £2½millions a year.
    Mr. KELLY: May we be given the line that has been drawn indicating what is the engineering trade for the purposes of this relief?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I assume that the hon. Gentleman in putting down his question took the line given in the Census of Production, and that is the line which I took.
    Mr. ERNEST BROWN: Does that line include marine engineering?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: I rather think that marine engineering is under a separate heading, but I would like notice of that question.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Are we to take it that marine engineering is not to get any relief from the rates?
    Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER: Certainly not. The question is whether marine engineering is included in general engineering, or included, as I think it is, in shipbuilding.
    Mr. JAMES HUDSONasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether under the proposals of the Budget for the partial de-rating of productive industries, breweries and distilleries will be classed as productive enterprises?
    Sir K. WOOD: I have been asked to reply. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Croydon North (Colonel Mason).
    Mr. THURTLE: Are not these industries in exactly the same position as factories which manufacture ginger-beer and lemonade?
    Mr. J. HUDSON: On what grounds has it been decided to effect these de-rating proposals when, since the War, between £100,000,000 and £200,000,000 profit has been made by them? In what sense do they need de-rating?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member can debate that later.

    IMPORTED OILS.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to charge a duty on the turpentine, white spirit, and other oils contained in paints, colours and varnishes imported into this country; and, if so, at what rate?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel): The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Under the provisions of Section 7 (1) of the Finance Act, 1901, duty will be chargeable in respect of imported paints, varnishes, colours, etc., which contain dutiable hydrocarbon oils, at the rate of 4d. per gallon on the quantity of such oils used in their manufacture.

    MECHANICAL LIGHTERS.
    Captain GARRO-JONESasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he now contemplates reducing the Excise duty on mechanical lighters from sixpence to threepence?
    Mr. SAMUEL: It was understood that there would be a further opportunity of discussing this matter during the Debates on the Finance Bill.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Has the hon. Gentleman taken the opportunity in the meantime to consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter?

  BRITISH ARMY.

    SERVICE PENSIONS.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for War if there is any Regulation which states that a man who has not less than 14 years' qualifying service
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    and is in receipt of a disability pension of not less than 20 per cent. shall be entitled to a service pension?
    The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Duff Cooper): The Regulation to which the hon. Member refers is contained in Army Order 330 of 1918. It provides that a soldier who served in the Army during the Great War and left with between 14 and 21 years' total service, of which at least 14 years reckoned as qualifying service, may be given a service pension provided that he was disabled in the Great War and granted a disability pension by the Ministry of Pensions. If the soldier's total service is less than 18 years, the disability pension must be a permanent one.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Can the hon. Gentleman send me a copy of the Regulation?
    Mr. COOPER: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for War whether, in the event of any man being recalled to the colours during a time of national emergency, the time served in the Reserve counts as a qualifying service or, if he volunteers for service in such an event when Sections A, B and D have been recalled, does such service count as qualifying towards pension?
    Mr. COOPER: No, Sir, not if he enlisted after 12th September, 1919, and is therefore governed by the current Regulations.
    Mr. MACLEAN: In the case of any reserve soldier who joined in 1914, does this particular regulation not govern his period of service and any disability which he suffered during the late War?
    Mr. COOPER: If he joined at the earlier date, his case would be governed by the earlier Regulation.
    Mr. MACLEAN: What is the earlier date? Is it 1914?
    Mr. COOPER: Prior to September, 1919.

    11TH HUSSARS (BAND UNIFORMS).
    Mr. RAMSDENasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what is the number of men serving in the band of the 11th Hussars; how frequently new uniforms are issued to them; what length of

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    cloth is required to make these uniforms, and how many years will be taken to use up for this purpose the uniform cloth in stock which was formerly worn by this regiment?
    Mr. COOPER: The authorised establishment of the band is 27, but uniform is also provided for supplementary players, including boys under training, not in-chided in the establishment. New uniforms are not issued at fixed periods but are supplied as and when required. There are approximately 2⅙ yards in these uniforms, of which more than a yard is required for the trousers made of the material peculiar to this regiment.
    Mr. RAMSDEN: How long does the hon. Gentleman estimate it will take to use up the cloth which they have in stock? That is asked in the Question, but there is no reply to it.
    Mr. COOPER: As already stated new uniforms are issued when required and not at fixed intervals. It is therefore impossible to calculate the exact period for which the present supply of cloth will last, but, roughly speaking, it should last for a considerable period—some 50 or 60 years, or even longer.
    Mr. LUMLEY: Is my hon. Friend aware that the wearing of crimson pants has been a tradition of this regiment for many years and will he make sure of preserving the tradition by preserving the crimson cloth?
    Mr. RAMSDEN: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that long before 50 or 60 years this cloth will be of no value whatever?

  SCOTLAND.

    FLOODING (RIVER SPEY).
    Mr. JOHNSTONasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his attention has been drawn to the damage done to crops and property in the neighbourhood of Garmouth, Morayshire, owing to the repeated flooding of the River Spey, due to the sweeping away of a bulwark on a neighbouring estate; whether he is aware that no compensation is payable to the farmers and others for their losses; and what steps he proposes to take, by legislation or otherwise, to remedy this state of affairs?
    The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): I am aware that considerable damage is caused to agricultural land by the periodical flooding of the River Spey, and my attention has already been drawn by the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. J. Stuart) to the damage in this instance. I am not aware that there is any statutory provision for the payment of compensation in such cases. Regarding the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 1st instant on the subject of the flooding of the River Kelvin. The whole problem is under consideration.
    Mr. JOHNSTON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that floods have taken place on this land on 15 different occasions since September, 1927; that the land is going out of cultivation; that the railway embankment is being undermined, and that a village has been cut off; and cannot he, as the representative of the Government, take steps to deal with the situation?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am getting the Board of Agriculture to report on the whole circumstances of the case. I can do no more at present.

    SMALL HOLDINGS.
    Mr. MACLEANasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he has taken to provide George Ross, of North Cluanie, Glenshill, and his brother with small holdings; whether he is aware that George Ross served in the Army from August, 1914, to 1919, and that he and his brother applied to the Scottish Board of Agriculture while in the Army in France and whether he is aware that they have since applied to the Board of Agriculture, and that they are at present unemployed and without land?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: An application by these men on the grounds stated in the question is at present before the Board, and inquiries are proceeding relative to the possibility of providing holdings at North Cluanie.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is it not the case that these individuals sent in their applications while they were serving in the Army in France; and does it take the right hon. Gentleman a matter of 10 years to find suitable land in this part of Scotland to give these two men small holdings?
    Mr. MACPHERSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I made application some time ago to the Board of Agriculture asking them to give special consideration to the case of these two men who are very deserving applicants; and will the right hon. Gentleman see to it that, in the consideration of the whole question, their cases are not overlooked?
    Sir J. GILMOUR: I am aware that the right hon. Gentleman drew the attention of the Board to the circumstances of these cases. All I can say at present is that the Board is investigating the circumstances in the hope of finding some solution.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to my Supplementary Question Does it take the Board of Agriculture 10 years to find, in this part of Scotland, suitable ground for small holdings for two ex-service men? Could not this matter have been dealt with long ago? The right hon. Gentleman has been Secretary of State for Scotland for several years, and the matter has not come to an end yet.

  COAL INDUSTRY.

    BY-PRODUCTS.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Secretary for Mines, if he will give a list of the collieries in South Wales and Monmouthshire which have installations for the treatment of coal for by-products; and the figures for the output of the more important by-products during the last five years?
    The SECRETARY for MINES (Commodore Douglas King): The only information I have relates to coke-ovens. I will send the hon. Member a list of the colliery companies to which these works are attached, but I regret that I am unable to state the amount of the byproducts recovered.

    MEIROS COLLIERY.
    Mr. MARDY JONESasked the Secretary for Mines, whether he is aware that pumping operations were discontinued at the South Rhondda Colliery early last February, causing a great accumulation of water in the workings of this colliery in seams to the rise of the same seams which were being worked
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    at the adjacent Meiros Collieries at Llanharran, Glamorgan; and why the Mines Department permitted this situation to arise, which has resulted in the throwing out of work of about 200 miners, whose lives were endangered at the Meiros Collieries by the risk of an inundation of water from the abandoned mine at South Rhondda Colliery?
    Commodore KING: On 11th April, there was a small make of water in the Pentre Seam of the Meiros Colliery and the manager withdrew the workmen from the Six Feet Seam pending examination. Work has not been re-started in that seam, but in the opinion of the Divisional Inspector of Mines the position is devoid of danger.
    Mr. JONES: Is it not a fact that the South Rhondda and the Meiros Collieries which adjoin, are owned by the same parent company, Messrs. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold; and are they not responsible for providing for the safety of the whole undertaking? Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that 200 miners have been thrown out of work because of this carelessness?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir, I am not. As I have just informed the hon. Member, the opinion of the divisional inspector is that the position is devoid of danger.
    Mr. JONES: If that is so, why have these 200 men been withdrawn? Was it not specifically because of the danger of an inundation of water from this abandoned mine. Ought not the hon. and gallant Gentleman to make special inquiries into this carelessness of his Department?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir. I presume that the reason they are not working the seam is because the seam is not economic.
    Mr. JONES: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman prepared to give his authority for the statement that the seam is not economic; and is he not aware of the fact that this is the most valuable seam in South Wales, and that to my personal knowledge the company is making handsome profits this year out of this very seam of coal?
    Mr. KELLY: Arising out of his reply, may I ask the hon. and gallant Gentle-

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    man if this is one of the mines dealt with in the catalogue of abandoned mines?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir. It is not abandoned.
    Mr. JONES: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment.

    DURHAM COALFIELD.
    Mr. BATEYasked the Secretary for Mines the number of pits working, the number of men employed, and the weekly wages paid in the Durham coalfield in October, 1924, and April, 1928, respectively?
    Commodore KING: In October, 1924, 226 pits were at work, employing 158,700 wage-earners. The corresponding figures for April, 1928, were 217 and 126,200. The estimated wekly wage hill in October, 1924, was £378,000, and in March, 1928, the latest month for which information is available, £248,000.
    Mr. BATEY: In view of the large number of men who have been thrown out of work since this Government came into office, do not the Government propose to take any steps to help these men now instead of in 18 months' time?
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is a matter for debate.

    LOCAL RATES AND ROYALTIES, SCOTLAND.
    Mr. W. M. WATSONasked the Secretary for Mines the total amount paid as local rates and the amount paid to royalty owners in each mining county in Scotland by coal companies; and the rates, or amount per ton, on output during the latest available six months?
    Commodore KING: Information is only available for Scotland as a whole. The estimated amount of local rates payable in respect of the six months ended March, 1928, was £108,000, or 1.46d. per ton of saleable output, and of royalties, £453,000, or 6.13d. per ton.
    Mr. MARDY JONES: Why is it impossible for the hon. and gallant Member's Department to give the specific amounts for each local authority's area in all the Scottish coalfields, instead of merely a lump sum for the entire country?
    Commodore KING: Because we have not the information, which is not supplied to us.
    Mr. JONES: Is it not a simple thing for each local authority in every coalfield in Scotland to give the specific information for its own area?

    PRODUCTION AND PRICES (CANNOCK CHASE COLLIERIES).
    Mr. W. M. ADAMSONasked the Secretary for Mines whether he can state the terms of the Cannock Chase Collieries Commercial Association's decision to fix a quota of coal production; whether it is intended to increase the price of coal for industrial and domestic purposes; and to what extent the proposal will limit employment in the pits?
    Commodore KING: I understand that the quotas under the Midland scheme are fixed by a committee of the Central Association and not by the District Association. As regards the answer to the second part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on the 3rd May to the hon. Member for Plaistow (Mr. W. Thorne). More experience of the scheme is necessary before its effect on employment can be judged.
    Mr. ADAMSON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is indicated already that the number of shifts will be reduced 12 per month?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir, I am not aware of that.

    YORKSHIRE.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Secretary for Mines how many collieries were working full time in Yorkshire during the week ending 28th April; and how many collieries were working three days a week or less?
    Commodore KING: During the week ended 28th April, 1928, 62 pits worked full time, 132 pits for four or five days, 132 pits for three days, and nine pits for less than three days.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that the short time is absolutely attributable to the Five Counties' Scheme, and can he say what the Government intend to do to help those men who are suffering from underemployment and from low wages?
    Commodore KING: No, Sir, the unemployment is due to lack of demand for the commodity.
    Mr. WILLIAMS: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that there has been a large demand for Yorkshire coal at the Humber ports which could not be supplied, although the pits were only working three or four days a week?
    Commodore KING: I understand there was a temporary shortage in Hull, but I believe that is being dealt with.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is the hon. and gallant Member aware that there is still a great shortage in Hull?
    Mr. AUSTIN HOPKINSON: Is not the Five Counties' Scheme, with its raising of coal prices, in direct accord with the recommendations of Sir Herbert Samuel's Commission?

    MINERS (NEW ENTRANTS).
    Mr. SHINWELLasked the Secretary for Mines how many boys between the ages of 14 and 16 have entered the mining industry in the first three months of this year, and the number of new entrants other than boys for the same period?
    The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of LABOUR (Mr. Betterton): I have been asked to reply. The available statistics include only persons insured under the Unemployment Insurance Acts and accordingly do not relate to boys below 16 years of age. During the three months to 31st March last, 7,506 boys, aged 16 and 17, in the coal mining industry entered insurance as well as 95 girls of those ages, 511 men and 34 women. Most of the boys and girls were, no doubt, already in the industry when they reached 16 years of age and became insurable, but separate statistics of these cases are not available.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Does not that prove that the voluntary arrangement between the owners and the Miners' Federation in respect of the recruitment of new labour for the mining industry has completely failed?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I should draw precisely the opposite conclusion.

    RESEARCH.
    Mr. HARDIEasked the Secretary for Mines (1) the quantity or the equivalent of coal required to produce the hydrogen for hydrogenation, gas for heating, and power for compression, etc., in working the Bergius plant;
    (2) what has been the experience of the Research Department with regard to the identity of all neutral oils from bituminous coal?
    Commodore KING: With regard to these questions, replies on such highly technical subjects would need so much qualification that it is not possible to keep them to a reasonable length. If the hon. Member will communicate to me more exact details of his requirements, I will provide him with a statement.
    Mr. HARDIE: How is the House to be informed of that which it is supposed to deal with if we get answers like this? The two questions I have put down are the most simple questions that could be put to the Mines Department. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I am not talking about those who are cackling now. I want to know—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]—I want your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on this point. After having put down two questions, I am requested, as there seems to be so great a wealth of detail in them, to submit to some sort of underhand, behind-the-Speaker's-Chair method, because they do not want these things made public. It is these underhand efforts—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech!"]
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot allow questions to be put in that form.
    At the end of Questions—
    Mr. HARDIE: On a point of Order. I desire to get this information through a question on the Order Paper, and I want to know whether, if I put these questions down in different words, they will be again ruled out of order?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot rule in advance on something I have not seen. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt take into account what the Secretary for Mines said to-day, and perhaps between them they will be able to arrive at a form of question which will enable the technical and scientific information to be given for the benefit of the whole House.
    Mr. HARDIE: Is it not in order to put "et cetera" when we get the impression from the answers given that there is something that we cannot get to know, and we use "et cetera" in order to get at the truth?
    Mr. HOPKINSON: May I submit that the information required cannot be, in the nature of the case, within the cognisance of the Secretary for Mines or any other Minister in this House; and that such information as is available has already been published in the public Press and in the proceedings of the various scientific societies, and that all those who are really interested in this matter are perfectly well aware that the information which has already been published is as much as we can expect to get in the present state of our knowledge?
    Mr. SHINWELL: Can we not arrange for the hon. Member for Mossley (Mr. Hopkinson) to sit on the Treasury Bench to answer these questions?

  TRANSPORT.

    OMNIBUS FARES.
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Transport whether he has received any reply to the invitation he made to the omnibus proprietors in the London area asking them for their observations with reference to the recent increases in omnibus fares; and whether he will inform the House what further action he proposes to take?
    The MINISTER of TRANSPORT (Colonel Ashley): No, Sir. I am still awaiting replies.
    Captain GARRO-JONESasked the Minister of Transport whether steps are being taken to watch and record the increases of fares imposed by the London General Omnibus Company, in view of the fact that the cost of petrol to-day, including the tax, is lower than when the standard fares were fixed?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The London Traffic Act, 1924, provides that any person to whom a licence has been granted for an omnibus to ply for hire in the City of London and the Metropolitan Police area, subject to the condition of maintaining a regular service, shall deposit with the licensing authority a schedule of the
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    fares which he intends to charge. Copies of such schedules are sent to me and recorded in my Department. I am not sure that I understand the hon. and gallant Member's reference to the fixing of standard fares.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statement made by the officials of the London General Omnibus Company to the effect that they have lost some hundreds of thousands of pounds by the imposition of the tax of 4d., and has he compared that with the figure of the amount they have saved by the decrease in the cost of petrol since they fixed the present fares?
    Colonel ASHLEY: No, Sir, I have not seen that statement.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to inform himself upon these vital matters?
    Colonel ASHLEY: If the hon. and gallant Member will kindly send me the statement, I will certainly go into it.
    Mr. COVEasked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that the United Counties Omnibus Company, operating in the Wellingborough Parliamentary area, has increased its workmen's fare by 50 per cent., and that as a consequence workmen have to pay a day's wage per week in omnibus fares; and what steps he proposes to take in order to prevent this increase?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The company to which the hon. Member refers is not a statutory company, and I have no control over the fares charged by them.
    Mr. COVE: Will the Minister make representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, pointing out to him that the workmen are paying for the Petrol Duty?

    ESCALATORS, LEICESTER SQUARE STATION.
    Sir R. THOMASasked the Minister of Transport when the Underground companies propose to instal escalators at Leicester Square Station?
    Colonel ASHLEY: I am informed by the railway company that they realise that, in view of the continued growth of the traffic at Leicester Square Station, this station must, in order to avoid congestion, be reconstructed at an early date, and that schemes with this object are under consideration.

    BOOTHFERRY BRIDGE ROAD.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHYasked the Minister of Transport whether, seeing that in the agreement between himself and the county council in October, 1924, it was agreed to bear the whole cost of the section of the Liverpool-Hull trunk road between Selby and Hull, including the road connecting with the new bridge to be built at Boothferry, and that his engineers and the trunk road engineers sketched out the route for this section of the road instead of the county surveyor, he can state when the road leading from the Boothferry bridge to link up with the new road to Hull will be commenced; whether he has now received the report of his chief road engineer, who recently examined the existing state of affairs and, if so, what is its nature; and if he is aware that the first span of the new bridge at Boothferry has been placed in position and that there is no time to he lost before commencing the necessary road leading from this bridge?
    Colonel ASHLEY: The understanding between the county council and my Department was that a certain allocation should be made from the Road Fund towards the improvement of the Hull-Selby road. That allocation is being duly spent, and will not cover the cost of the Boothferry Bridge approach, only a small part of which can be said to lie on the Hull-Selby road. It is true that my staff have taken part in the preparation of plans for the bridge approach, but assistance of this nature which is not infrequently given to local authorities, does not, in any way, imply that the execution of the work will be undertaken by my Department. I am aware of the progress of the bridge construction, towards which I have made a 50 per cent. grant, and I am desirous of assisting the local authorities in the formation of the approach on the terms usually applicable to such schemes.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, but may I ask him what steps the Corporation of Hull are to take in this matter, as until the county council and the right hon. Gentleman's Department come to some agreement the whole work on the road is held up and traffic is disorganised?
    Colonel ASHLEY: If the local authorities will approach me, I shall be pleased to hear what they have to say.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Does that apply to the Corporation of Hull?
    Colonel ASHLEY: Certainly.

  ELECTRICITY CHARGES (BOURNEMOUTH AND POOLE).
  Mr. A. V. ALEXANDERasked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the issue of bonus shares, equal to 100 per cent. of the ordinary share capital, by the Bournemouth and Poole Electric Light and Power Company; what was the price of electricity per unit charged by this company during each of the four quarters of 1927; and whether he is satisfied that the price so charged was reasonable having regard to the high profits secured?
  Colonel ASHLEY: I have seen reports in the Press to the effect stated in the first part of this question. As regards the second part, I understand that the prices charged by the company in question during 1927 were 7d. to 3d. per unit for lighting, 3d. to 1¾d. for power, and 2d. to 1¾d. for heating and cooking. As regards the third part, I am not in a position to express any opinion on the reasonableness of the prices charged. If the local authority or consumers consider that the existing maximum prices are unreasonable it is open to them to apply to me, in accordance with the prescribed procedure, to revise those prices.
  Mr. ALEXANDER: Does not the Minister of Transport regard it as his duty to prevent what is obviously a ramp against the consumer both from the point of view—
  Mr. SPEAKER: I should like to see that question on the Paper.
  Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: Is not this bonus distribution an accumulation of profits that have been made during past years; and is it not also a fact that the company has only three or four years more of tenure before it becomes purchasable—
  HON. MEMBERS: Speech!
  Mr. ALEXANDER: In view of the very high prices charged and the high profits shown, is not the Minister of Transport prepared to hold a local inquiry?
  Colonel ASHLEY: As I said in the last part of my answer, if the local authority or the consumers consider the existing maximum prices unreasonable, they can apply to me and ask me to revise those prices, and when they do so I shall make it my duty to go into the whole question.
  Mr. ALEXANDER: I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question to-morrow evening on the Adjournment.

  POST OFFICE.

    TRANSATLANTIC TELEPHONE CHARGES.
    Mr. DAYasked the Postmaster-General whether there are any negotiations at present pending for the purpose of reducing the transatlantic telephone charges between Canada and Great Britain; and can he make a statement thereon?
    The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Sir William Mitchell-Thomson): The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second does not therefore arise.
    Mr. DAY: Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that ten guineas for three minutes is an inducement to the public to use this service?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The hon. Member is under a misapprehension. The Transatlantic charge is precisely the same as in the case of Canada, £9 for three minutes.
    Mr. DAY: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that £9 for three minutes is an inducement to the public to use the service?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: Yes, I do, otherwise I should not be charging it.

    CONTRACT (STAMPS).
    Captain GARRO-JONESasked the Postmaster-General by whom postage stamps, bill stamps, and other such documents are printed and on what terms; when the last contract was allotted; and how many firms tendered?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: The bulk of postage stamps, entertainments duty stamps, and insurance stamps are printed by Messrs. Waterlow and Sons, under a contract running for ten years from the 1st January, 1924. High value postage stamps (2s. 6d. and upwards) are printed by Messrs. Bradbury, Wilkinson and Company under a contract originally concluded for three years from the 1st August, 1918, and now running from year to year. Four tenders were received for the former, and six for the latter contract. Sixpenny postage stamps, Inland Revenue stamps and a few insurance stamps are printed at Somerset House by the Inland Revenue Stamping Department.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the disclosures which have come to light in the case of "Waterlow and another," and learn any lesson which is to be learned from those facts?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I think that is a reference to a legal case now before the Courts.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: May I submit that the legal case has a direct reference to my question on the Paper? In that case it came to light that certain firms conspired not to tender—
    Mr. SPEAKER: I am under the impression that there is a case on this point before the Courts which has not yet concluded.
    HON. MEMBERS: It has concluded.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I did not know that.
    Captain GARRO-JONES: May I therefore, ask the Postmaster-General whether he will examine the facts which have come to light in that case of "Waterlow and another," and see whether he cannot do anything to ensure that such malpractices will not occur again if he can help it?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: I have already told the hon. and gallant Gentleman—of course, I am not accepting any statement of alleged facts; obviously, it would not be proper to do so—that this particular contract was concluded for the first time in 1924 and has a currency of 10 years. I do not know, because I have not examined it, whether when the con-

    169
    tract was entered into provision was made for its determination at an earlier date, but, as the hon. Member has asked me, I will look into it.
    Major PRICE: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the terms of the contract are being carried out?

    MAIL TRAIN, PERTH AND ABERDEEN.
    Mr. BARCLAY-HARVEYasked the Postmaster-General on how many occasions from 1st July, 1927, to 30th April, 1928, the 8.30 mail train from Euston was more than 15 minutes late at Perth and Aberdeen, respectively; and on how many occasions it missed the connecting trains at Aberdeen in consequence?
    Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON: During the period in question the lateness of the train at Perth and Aberdeen on week-days exceeded 15 minutes on 85 and 80 occasions respectively: the mails failed to connect at Aberdeen with the Keith-Elgin and Deeside trains on 60 occasions and with the Buchan train on 33 occasions.

  NAVAL ESTABLISHMENT, PORT EDGAR.
  Mr. SHINWELLasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is intended to dispose of the site and buildings at Port Edgar; and whether any offers have been received by the Admiralty?
  The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the ADMIRALTY (Lieut.-Colonel Headlam): Inquiry is being made whether the site and buildings at Port Edgar, except the oil fuel establishment which is not to be closed, down, are required for any other Government purpose. Meanwhile no action is being taken to dispose of them. No offers to purchase have been received by the Admiralty.
  Mr. SHINWELL: Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the Admiralty will be in a position to decide shortly as to whether this site has to be disposed of?
  Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM: My answer, really, is a reply to the supplementary question.

  BRITISH HOLIDAY RESORTS (ADVERTISING).
  Sir CHARLES CAYZERasked the Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department what assistance is now given by the British Government in the direction of establishing a system of advertising its holiday resorts on a national and organised basis; and whether, if no such policy is adopted, he will consider the creation of a section of his Department intended to develop tourist traffic in the United Kingdom?
  Mr. DOUGLAS HACKING (Secretary, Overseas Trade Department): My Department has for some time past taken a keen interest in this question and has been in close consultation with the parties concerned. I am not, however, convinced, even apart from the question of expense, that it is desirable for the Government to make itself directly responsible for the task of advertising abroad the holiday resorts of Great Britain. This would appear to be a matter rather for private enterprise with as much assistance as this Department and its overseas officers can properly afford.

  DEAD SEA SALTS (CONCESSION).
  Colonel HOWARD-BURYasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the British group of financiers who, in February of this year, applied for the concession of the Dead Sea, salts were prepared to take into the scheme any of the other applicants for the concession; and whether their offer was such as to ensure that the maximum benefits were to be given to Palestine and Transjordania by devoting to them the surplus profits arising from the concession?
  Captain MARGESSON (Lord of the Treasury): As my right hon. Friend stated yesterday in reply to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham (Captain Cazalet), he was approached in February last by a firm of chartered accountants acting on behalf of a British group desiring to interest itself in the exploitation of the Dead Sea salts. In their letter to him the firm intimated that the group was prepared to take into its scheme any other applicants for the concession. They also described the group's offer in the terms of the last part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question.
  Colonel HOWARDBURY: Will my hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State whether he is aware that this prolonged delay is playing into the hands of the German monopoly, and cannot he soon come to a decision on the matter, as there are applicants who are already waiting to work this?
  Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: You want them to clear out of Palestine.
  Mr. THURTLE: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is really a question for the Palestine Government, and not for the Colonial Secretary?

  FACTORIES (TWO-SHIFT SYSTEM).
  Mr. KELLYasked the Secretary Of State for the Home Department the period of time during which the firms who received permits for the two-shift system operated such system; and is there a periodic inspection of the factories whilst the system is in operation?
  The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir William Joynson-Hicks): It was provided in Section 2 of the Employment of Women, Young Persons and Children Act, 1920, under which these Orders are made, that all Orders should be in force for the same period as the Section, namely, a period of five years from the commencement of the Act. The Section has since been continued in force each year by the Expiring Laws Continuance Acts, and the effect has been to extend the duration of the Orders accordingly. The works are periodically inspected both by the district staffs and by the women deputy superintending inspectors who are specially charged with the supervision of these Orders.
  Mr. KELLY: Is a close look kept upon some of them, particularly those engaged in food production and in explosives manufacture?
  Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I cannot give the hon. Member particulars as to any exact inspection without notice. If he will put down a question, or write to me, I will let him know exactly when an inspection has been made.

  VAGRANCY.
  Mr. W. M. ADAMSONasked the Minister of Health the number of casual vagrants for the areas of Staffordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire for the quarter ending March last?
  Sir K. WOOD: The available figures as to numbers of casual vagrants are those relating to Friday of each week. The average numbers on Friday nights in the quarter ended March last in the Union Counties of Staffordshire, Worcestershire and Warwickshire were 278, 127 and 318 respectively.
  Mr. W. M. ADAMSONasked the Minister of Health whether he has approved of any proposals to sanction improved wards for casual vagrants under the joint vagrancy committees of Staffordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire; and if he can state the estimated costs, with the districts within these areas to which they apply?
  Sir K. WOOD: My right hon. Friend's sanction is not as a rule required to minor improvements made by guardians to Poor Law premises, and I am therefore unable to give the hon. Member a total figure, but during the past five years expenditure amounting to £13,412 in respect of major structural improvement of casual wards in this area has been sanctioned. I am forwarding details of this expenditure to the hon. Member.

  UNEMPLOYMENT.

    BENEFIT DISALLOWED, BOROUGH.
    Mr. DAYasked the Minister of Labour whether any special instructions have been issued from his Department to the Walworth Road (Borough) Employment Exchange, during the period of 12 months ended to the 9th April, 1928, which caused the local employment committee to recommend for disallowance 4,037 applications for extended benefit out of a total of 12,363 applications considered?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, Sir.
    Mr. DAY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that 1,300 of these applications have been refused, because the committee have considered that the

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    applicants have not been genuinely seeking work, and does he not think that this is an absurd number for such a cause to be given?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No, I am not aware of that figure. It is obviously a question for the committee.
    Mr. DAY: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is the figure which he gave me last week?
    Mr. BETTERTON: If the hon. Gentleman says so, I take it that it is so.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Does the hon. Gentleman not consider that 33⅓ per cent. of disqualifications is a very large proportion, and can he say what is the general figure for the country?
    Mr. SPEAKER: The question on the Paper asks if there were any special instructions issued.

    MINE WORKERS.
    Mr. SHINWELLasked the Minister of Labour how many shale miners and oil workers in the county of West Lothian were registered as unemployed at the Employment Exchanges in March of this year, and how many were in receipt of benefit?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As stated by my hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary for Mines, on 15th March last in reply to the hon. Member for the Bothwell Division (Mr. Sullivan), separate figures

    Insured Persons classified as belonging to the COAL MINING INDUSTRY recorded as Unemployed at the Doncaster and Mexborough Employment Exchanges.

    Date.

    Doncaster.

    Mexborough.

    Wholly Unemployed.

    Temporarily Stopped.

    Total.

    Wholly Unemployed.

    Temporarily Stopped.

    Total.

    26th April, 1926

    …

    111

    1

    112

    62

    2

    64

    23rd April, 1928

    …

    710

    4,592

    5,302

    386

    1,547

    1,933

    JUVENILES (TRANSFER).
    Mr. KELLYasked the Minister of Labour what districts have made application for the transfer of juveniles into their area for placing in employment?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Vacancies notified by individual employers have been filled
    in respect of unempoyment among shale mining workers are not available.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Why is it that the figures cannot be furnished in respect of unemployment in this particular industry; are shale miners not classified in a separate category?
    Mr. BETTERTON: No; that is exactly the reason I cannot give them; they are not classified.
    Mr. SHINWELL: Will the hon. Gentleman make arrangements to have the proper qualification made?
    Mr. BETTERTON: I will consider that, but I cannot say at the moment if it is practicable or advisable.
    Mr. A. V. ALEXANDER: Is there any reason why the hon. Gentleman cannot get this from the local Employment Exchange?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Yes, because they are not classified.
    Mr. T. WILLIAMSasked the Minister of Labour how many mine workers were registered as unemployed at the Doncaster and Mexborough Employment Exchanges on 23rd April, 1926, and on the same date in 1928?
    Mr. BETTERTON: As the reply includes a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Following is the statement:
    by the transfer of juveniles from other districts, including mining areas. I am not aware of any applications by districts for such transfers.
    Mr. KELLY: Will the hon. Gentleman make known to the House the district or the areas into which these juveniles have been sent?
    Mr. BETTERTON: Yes; Yorkshire, the Midlands and the South of England are three of the districts, and there may be others.

    NEW EMPLOYMENT EXCHANGE, DARLINGTON.
    Mr. SHEPHERDasked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, when building operations will be commenced for the new Employment Exchange at Darlington?
    The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Lieut.-Colonel Sir Vivian Henderson): The plans of the new Employment Exchange at Darlington are at present under discussion, but it is hoped to commence building towards the end of the year.
    Mr. SHEPHERD: Cannot the matter be expedited, so that the building can be occupied before the winter?
    Sir V. HENDERSON: That would not be possible, because provision has only been taken in this year's Estimates for part of the building, and we cannot complete the building on the amount taken in this year's Estimates.

    PRINCE CAROL OF RUMANIA.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the manifesto drawn up by Prince Carol of Rumania, now in this country, and printed in London, calling upon the people of Rumania to oust King Michael and recall Prince Carol to the Throne; and whether he does not consider this action a breach of the comity of nations which would justify him in requesting Prince Carol to leave this country forthwith?
    Mr. L'ESTRANGE MALONE: I would like to ask you, Mr. Speaker, why this question was ruled out of order yesterday and has been permitted to be answered to-day?
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think that I had a question submitted to me yesterday on this subject.
    Mr. MALONE: I handed several questions in at the Table last week.
    Mr. SPEAKER: I do not think I saw them.
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; and, after consultation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, I have caused Prince Carol to be informed that his presence in this country is no longer welcome, and that he should terminate his visit without delay.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May I ask if, when the right hon. Gentleman gave permission for Prince Carol to visit this country, he invited assurances from him as to his conduct—
    Mr. SPEAKER: That is the subject of a further question.
    Mr. E. BROWN(by Private Notice) asked the Home Secretary whether Prince Carol of Rumania was granted a permit to reside in this country, and, if so, when it expires?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: Prince Carol was allowed to land on the 28th April last for a temporary visit of two months.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: May I put my question to the Home Secretary—I had no idea that my hon. Friend the Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) was going to ask this question—as to whether, when permission was given by the Home Secretary for Prince Carol to land, assurances were invited from him that he would not engage in any intrigues or political activities in this country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: No, Sir.
    Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Why not?
    Mr. THURTLE: Is the Home Secretary in a position to say whether there is any foundation in fact for the statement in the "Morning Post" and other papers to-day to the effect that this so-called Rumanian plot is really only a stunt organised by certain newspapers?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I can only say that I have received an intimation from Prince Carol, who was served early this morning with my request to leave, that he is writing to me on the whole subject. I cannot say any more.
    Mr. HORE-BELISHA: May I ask whether Prince Carol had a passport in the ordinary way, or whether some special arrangement was made in his case?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I must have notice of that question.
    Miss WILKINSON: With reference to the reply which the Home Secretary has given to the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), may I ask why the Home Secretary treats royalty differently in this matter of propaganda from ordinary citizens?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: It is quite obvious from the action which I have taken that I make no distinction.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is the Foreign Secretary going to make any statement upon this matter covering the application made by Prince Carol to visit this country, if he made any such application; and may I also ask whether the activities of Prince Carol were watched while he was in this country to see whether this plot was actually being carried out?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I am not in a position to make any further statement to-day. I have made a communication to Prince Carol, and he has promised that I shall have a full statement from him. I shall probably receive it in the course of to-day or by to-morrow morning's post, and I can say nothing further in the meantime.
    Mr. MACLEAN: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to take up this question with the Foreign Secretary to find out anything in regard to the matter which I have raised?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: The Foreign Secretary and I are in very close touch with one another in regard to the whole matter.
    Mr. STEPHEN: Are we to understand that the Home Secretary may reconsider his decision if Prince Carol's letter is satisfactory?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is purely a hypothetical question, and it is quite impossible for me to answer it.
    Mr. HARDIE: Since it has been found necessary to take these steps with regard to the gentleman who is asked to retire from this country, did it not
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    come into the right hon. Gentleman's purview whether he had a passport when he came into the country, and was it an ordinary passport?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: I have already explained that a visa or permission was given to this gentleman to come into the country. As to the exact nature of the passport, I cannot say, because I have not seen it.
    Mr. HARDIE: What are the reasons for sending him out of the country?
    Mr. MACQUISTEN: Is it not perfectly clear that whatever Prince Carol was doing, he was not doing anything that concerned this country and was not intriguing against this country?
    Sir W. JOYNSON-HICKS: That is not the point. The point is that Prince Carol is not a British subject. He has come here to enjoy our hospitality, and he must do nothing while he is here which might involve us in trouble abroad.

RECONSTITUTED AND SYNTHETIC CREAM.
Mr. EVERARD: I beg to move,
"That leave be given to bring in a Bill to control the production, distribution, and sale of reconstituted and synthetic cream."
I am sure that the House will allow me its indulgence for a few minutes for the purpose of introducing a Bill which very seriously affects a very large number of people in this country. The dairy farmers and the great consuming public are materially affected by this Bill, and, before I explain to the House its general provisions, I should like to state the reasons leading up to its introduction. As is well known to all Members of the House, the Minister of Health, acting, as he believed, in the interests of the consuming public of this country, thought fit, as from the 1st January this year, to prohibit the use of any preservatives in the manufacture or sale of cream in this country, and the effect of that has been two-fold. While it has to a certain extent prevented or diminished the importation of cream from foreign countries and from Ireland, it has at the same time very materially increased the use in this country of synthetic and reconstituted cream, and that is the point to which

179
I wish the House to give its mind this afternoon.
As the House is, of course, aware, we have, up to the last few days, been having a considerable amount of cold weather, and therefore it would be reasonable to suppose that cream without preservatives, if it were going to keep at all, would keep during that period, but I have here a letter from the owner of a large creamery in the City of Birmingham—I do not know whether he is a constituent of the Minister of Health himself—in which he says:
"The first week that the Order came into force, I had 10 churns of cream sour—a loss of £50, and that during frosty weather. Since then I have lost 50 customers out of 70."
He goes on to say that whereas, before the Order came into force, his weekly sale was 500 gallons of cream, it has now been reduced to less than 100 gallons weekly. If that be so during cold weather, it is perfectly certain that worse conditions will prevail during hot weather.
For this reason a very large number of people in this country, comprising bakers, confectioners, ice cream merchants and hotel and restaurant proprietors, are installing machines called emulsifiers. I do not know whether Members of the House are aware what these emulsifiers are, but they produce by mechanical means cream of two distinct varieties. They produce what is called reconstituted cream, which is made from skim milk powder, very largely—indeed, practically entirely—imported from Holland, and from butter, which is generally imported from New Zealand, though a great deal of it is also imported from continental countries, and a certain amount of course, is English butter; and very often the only English product that is used in this particular method of making cream is the water with which it is mixed. The other variety, namely, synthetic cream, is a slightly different product. It is made in the same way, but, instead of butter, margarine is used, or some other imported vegetable oil. Therefore, I say that the public who are buying in the shops of this country what they believe to be cream buns, what they believe to be ice cream, or what they believe to be cream, are, in fact, getting something which has not nearly the same nutritive value. I am certain that anyone with any knowledge of
180
medical matters will know that, as far as synthetic cream is concerned, there is practically no food value in it at all, while, as far as reconstituted cream is concerned, it is perfectly certain that the very important vitamins which exist in ordinary cream do not exist to the same degree in reconstituted cream, so that it is a very much less valuable food for the people of this country.
What I want to impress upon the House is that, while it is stated in the advertisements relating to these machines—I have several of them here—that large extra profits can be made by using them, the general public are being asked to pay the same price for a very much worse article than ordinary English cream, and, therefore, I am asking leave to introduce this Bill, which will put the cream trade in exactly the same position as the dairy trade under the Milk and Dairies Consolidation Act. What the Bill does is, roughly, this: It gives the Minister of Health power to make special Orders for the registration with the local authorities of manufacturers of reconstituted and synthetic cream, and also for the registration of sellers of these articles, the inspection of premises, the labelling and marking of vessels, and the designation of the articles, so that they may be distinguished by the general public from ordinary natural cream. I am certain that there is no Member of this House who would not be willing that the general public should know, when they are buying cream, whether it is real, natural cream, or whether it is synthetic or reconstituted cream. The penalties under the Bill are exactly the same as those which are at present in operation under the Milk and Dairies Consolidation Act.
I should like to give one example, if I may, of some of the things which have happened in my own constituency within the last few weeks. I have seen the manager of a very large creamery in my Division, and he has given me some replies which he has received from some of his customers. This is one of them:
"I am sorry for not replying to your letter before. The reason we have not taken any further supplies of cream is that we have bought an emulsifier."
I have several others of the same sort, and I think that that will give the House a good idea of what is happening. I

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hope that the House will give permission for this Bill to be brought in, because, first of all, of the effect of these articles on the health of the general public, since the general public are being sold something which they do not understand, and which, while they believe it to be cream, is not really cream at all; and also because it affects the great dairying industry and the farming industry of this country. I ask the House to allow me to introduce this Bill in the interest of the farming industry and the still more important interest of the consumer and the general public.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Everard, Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte, Brigadier-General Clifton Brown, Dr. Vernon Davies, Captain Ronald Henderson, Mr. Lamb, Mr. Riley, Mr. Smith-Carington, and Mr. Alfred Williams.

RECONSTITUTED AND SYNTHETIC CREAM.
  RECONSTITUTED AND SYNTHETIC CREAM BILL,
  "to control the production, distribution, and sale of reconstituted and synthetic cream," presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 125.]
ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION (AMENDMENT) BILL,
"to amend the Law with respect to the regulation of advertisements," presented by Mr. Looker; supported by Lieut.-Colonel Heneage, Dr. Vernon Davies, and Mr. T. Williams; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 124.]

BETTING (JUVENILE MESSENGERS) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Reported, with an Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed.
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  SUPPLY.
  [6TH ALLOTTED DAY.]
  SUPPLY.

    CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1928.
    Considered in Committee.
    [Captain FITZROY in the Chair.]

    CLASS IV.

      PUBLIC EDUCATION, SCOTLAND.
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That a sum, not exceeding £3,353,616, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Public Education in Scotland, and for the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh, including a Grant-in-Aid." — [Note.—£2,750,000 has been voted on account.]
      Mr. THOMAS HENDERSON: I desire to raise a question of some importance relative to the Estimates we are to discuss. I find, on going to the Vote Office and inquiring for reports of the different Departments, the latest we can get is dated 1926. The 1926 reports deal with the financial year 1925–26 and it is rather serious that we should be called upon to discuss Estimates for 1928–29 without a report on which to base our criticism. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will be prepared to give an explanation as to why there are no available reports for last year and an assurance that some attention will be given to the question in the future?
      Mr. MACPHERSON: I wish to reinforce what the hon. Member has said. It is unfortunate, for two reasons, that we should have this Debate to-day. I had not realised that it was only a half-day, otherwise I should have resisted yesterday the Prime Minister's announcement that Scottish Estimates were to be taken. I understand that Private Business is put down for half-past seven, and I am sure Scottish Members did not realise that when they consented. It is extremely unfortunate that the whole of the Scottish Estimates should be put down for a half-day of Parliamentary time. I see that hon. Members above the Gangway are going to discuss three important questions—education, agricul-
      190
      ture and the Board of Health. Anyone who has any knowledge of Scottish interests knows that these are three colossal subjects. We have often discussed one of them alone for a whole day. There is no guarantee that we are to have any other time to discuss anything. I, therefore, think the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised to consult the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury with a view to allotting another day for Scottish Estimates.
      With regard to what the hon. Member above the Gangway has said, it is very unfortunate that there is not a single Report on any one of these three subjects at present in our hands. Last year we were discussing the Board of Health Report. It was one of the most interesting Reports I have ever seen published, but it was out of date. This year we have no Report at all. Education is one of the noblest subjects of which our native country has any cognisance, and we have not a single Report of any kind. For agriculture and afforestation there is not a Report in existence of later date than 18 months ago. I, therefore, reinforce as strongly as I can the hon. Member's appeal that we should have another day for a discussion of Scottish Estimates.
      The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Sir John Gilmour): Of course, the Government are not involved in this except in so far as we agreed to the request of the Opposition to put down Scottish Estimates for this day. It is in the power of the Opposition to ask for a day for the subjects they desire, and if they desire another day for Scottish Estimates, they can make that request. With regard to the interruption of business, that is a matter over which the Government have no control. In so far as the Reports are concerned, of course it is regrettable that we should have this Debate without them. I have been expediting their publication, and I am told they will be available earlier this year than on any previous occasion, but that they are not available at the present moment is certainly the fact. At the same time, the matter was in the hands of the Whips and their request for this day was granted.
      Mr. T. KENNEDY: In putting down Scottish Estimates for this day, Scottish Members have to avail themselves of the opportunities that are open to them, and

      191
      the simple point before us is the responsibility of the Scottish Office in publishing these Reports in time for the Estimates to be discussed, as the other Estimates are discussed, within the time at our disposal. That responsibility is on the right hon. Gentleman, and he has not met it on this occasion.
      Mr. JAMES BROWN: I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
      I would rather not have anything to do with the discussion to-day on Scottish Estimates if we are only to get a half-day. It never entered into my mind that that was all we were to get. Scottish education would be good for two days at any time. As for the Scottish Board of Health, we require several days. I notice that the Under-Secretary is not in his place. That itself might have moved us to report Progress. I do not think Scottish Members should sit under such an insult as to be offered half a day for the business that is before us.
      Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.
      Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
      The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

      ADJOURNMENT.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Commander Eyres Monsell.]
      4.0 p.m.
      Mr. STEPHEN: I gave notice at Question time that I would raise the question of the way in which seamen are being treated, but I want to protest now that there is no member of the Government present who can answer me. The way in which the House is being treated by the Government is disgraceful. When we were in Committee a few minutes ago, the Government had not reports available for us regarding Scottish affairs, and now there is no Minister in his place to deal with the question of which I gave notice. It is, therefore, no use for me
      192
      to continue my speech when I cannot get an adequate reply. I protest most strongly against the discourtesy of the Minister concerned and the Members of the Government.
      Mr. SHINWELL: The episode which has led to the wasting of hon. Members' time is one for which the Government are directly responsible. It has arisen because of the absence of material upon which Members representing Scottish constituencies can base their case against the Scottish Office. I am placed at a particular disadvantage inasmuch as, after prolonged absence from the House, I come here without the necessary material for Debate, and I find that the Secretary of State for Scotland is not in a position to furnish that material either to myself or to my hon. Friends. In these circumstances, we on this side were entitled to raise a protest in the manner that we did. We complain not alone of the absence of material, but of the procedure for which the Secretary of State for Scotland is responsible. The Government appear to have shirked their responsibility this afternoon by evading the issue in the Division Lobby.
      Mr. SPEAKER: I thought the hon. Member rose to raise some question on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House. It would be out of order for him to proceed with the speech he is now making.
      Mr. SHINWELL: I naturally desire to respond to your ruling, but it did appear to me that the circumstances which gave rise to the extraordinary episode of a few minutes ago were a subject that might properly be raised now.
      Mr. SPEAKER: I understand that the Committee was unanimous in passing the Motion to report Progress.
      Mr. SHINWELL: The episode is one to which the attention of the House should be directed. We are entitled to complain of the attitude of the Government in the matter. I respond to your ruling, however, and shall say nothing further.
      Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
      The House divided: Ayes, 170; Noes, 102.

      Division No. 113.]

      AYES.

      [4.13 p.m.

      Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel

      Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John

      Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M

      Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles

      Glyn, Major R. G. C.

      Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)

      Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)

      Grace, John

      Morrison, H. (Wilts, Salisbury)

      Allan, Lieut.-Col. Sir William James

      Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.

      Nelson, Sir Frank

      Applin, Colonel R. V. K.

      Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John

      Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

      Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W

      Grotrian, H. Brent

      Penny, Frederick George

      Atholl, Duchess of

      Gunston, Captain D. W.

      Perkins, Colonel E. K.

      Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

      Hacking, Douglas H.

      Peto, G. (Somerset, Frome)

      Barclay-Harvey, C. M.

      Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

      Pownall, Sir Assheton

      Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. p. H.

      Hall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)

      Price, Major C. W. M.

      Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

      Hamilton, Sir George

      Ralne, Sir Walter

      Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish.

      Hammersley, S. S.

      Ramsden, E.

      Bethel, A.

      Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry

      Reid, D. D. (County Down)

      Betterton, Henry B.

      Harrison, G. J. C.

      Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)

      Blades, Sir George Rowland

      Hartington, Marquess of

      Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell

      Bourne, Captain Robert Croft

      Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)

      Ropner, Major L.

      Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

      Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.

      Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.

      Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William Clive

      Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley)

      Salmon, Major I.

      Briggs, J. Harold

      Henderson, Lieut.-Col. Sir Vivian

      Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

      Briscoe, Richard George

      Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.

      Sandeman, N. Stewart

      Brittain, Sir Harry

      Henn, Sir Sydney H.

      Sanders, Sir Robert A.

      Brocklebank, C. E. R.

      Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.

      Sandon, Lord

      Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.

      Hills, Major John Waller

      Savery, S. S.

      Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y)

      Hilton, Cecil

      Shaw, Lt.-Col. A. D. Mcl. (Renfrew. W)

      Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

      Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G.

      Sheffield, Sir Berkeley

      Burman, J. B.

      Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

      Skelton, A. N.

      Burton, Colonel H. W.

      Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)

      Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.)

      Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward

      Hopkins, J. W. W.

      Smith-Carington, Neville W.

      Cautley, Sir Henry S.

      Hopkinson, Sir A. (Eng. Universities)

      Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)

      Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)

      Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.

      Spender-Clay, Colonel H.

      Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)

      Hurd, Percy A.

      Sprot, sir Alexander

      Charteris, Brigadier-General J.

      James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

      Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Rt. Hon. G. F.

      Clarry, Reginald George

      Jephcott, A. R.

      Stanley, Lord (Fylde)

      Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

      Kindersley, Major Guy M.

      Steel, Major Samuel Strang

      Cooper, A. Duff

      King, Commodore Henry Douglas

      Streatfeild, Captain S. R.

      Cope, Major William

      Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

      Sugden, sir Wilfrid

      Couper, J. B.

      Knox, Sir Alfred

      Templeton, W. P.

      Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)

      Lamb, J. O.

      Thorn, Lt.-Col. J. G. (Dumbarton)

      Crookshank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey, Gainsbro)

      Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.

      Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)

      Curzon, Captain viscount

      Lloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)

      Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Mitchell-

      Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)

      Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

      Tinne, J. A.

      Davits, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)

      Loder, J. de V.

      Turton, Sir Edmund Russborough

      Davies, Dr. Vernon

      Long, Major Eric

      Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)

      Dean, Arthur Wellesley

      Looker, Herbert William

      Warrender, Sir Victor

      Dixey, A. C.

      Lougher, Lewis

      Watson, Rt. Hon. W. (Carlisle)

      Ellis, R. G.

      Luce, Maj.-Gen. Sir Richard Harman

      Watts, Dr. T.

      Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)

      Lumley, L. R.

      Wayland, Sir William A.

      Everard, W. Lindsay

      Lynn, Sir R. J.

      Williams, A. M. (Cornwall, Northern)

      Falle, Sir Bertram G.

      MacAndrew, Major Charles Glen

      Williams, Com. C. (Devon, Torquay)

      Fanshawe, Captain G. D.

      Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)

      Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)

      Fermoy, Lord

      Macintyre, Ian

      Wilson, Sir Murrough (Yorks, Richm'd)

      Fielden, E. B.

      Macnaghten, Hon. Sir Malcolm

      Wilson, R. R. (Stafford, Lichfield)

      Forestier-Walker, Sir L.

      Macqulsten, F. A.

      Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley

      Fraser, Captain Ian

      MacRobert, Alexander M.

      Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

      Frece, Sir Walter de

      Manningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn

      Ganzoni, Sir John

      Marriott, Sir J. A. R.

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

      Gates, Percy.

      Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-

      Mr. F. C. Thomson and Captain

      Gauit, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton

      Mitchell, W. Foot (Saffron Walden)

      Margesson.

      NOES.

      Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)

      Day, Harry

      John, William (Rhondda, West)

      Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)

      Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwelity)

      Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)

      Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')

      Gibbins, Joseph

      Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

      Attlee, Clement Richard

      Gillett, George M.

      Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd)

      Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)

      Gosling, Harry

      Kelly, W. T.

      Barr, J.

      Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

      Kennedy, T.

      Briant, Frank

      Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Coins)

      Lansbury, George

      Broad, F. A.

      Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)

      Lawrence, Susan

      Bromfieid, William

      Griffith, F. Kingsley

      Lawson, John James

      Bromley, J.

      Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

      Lee, F.

      Brown, Ernest (Leith)

      Groves, T.

      Lindley, F. W.

      Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

      Hall, F. (York., W.R., Normanton)

      Lowth, T.

      Cape, Thomas

      Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)

      Lunn, William

      Cluse, W. S.

      Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)

      MacLarsn, Andrew

      Compton, Joseph

      Hardle, George D.

      Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

      Connolly, M.

      Hayday, Arthur

      Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Jamas I.

      Cove, W. G.

      Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)

      Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)

      Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

      Hollins, A.

      Maxton, James

      Dalton, Hugh

      Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)

      Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)

      Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)

      Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)

      Murnin, H.

      194

      195

      Palin, John Henry

      Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip

      Wellock, Wilfred

      Parkinson, John Allan (Wigan)

      Stamford, T. W.

      Welsh, J. C.

      Ponsonby, Arthur

      Stephen, Campbell

      Westwood, J.

      Potts, John S.

      Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)

      Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.

      Ritson, J.

      Sutton, I. E.

      Whiteley, W

      Robinson, W. C. (Yorks, W. R. Elland)

      Thomas, Sir Robert John (Anglesey)

      Wiggins, William Martin

      Rote, Frank H.

      Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

      Williams, C. P. (Denbigh, Wrexham)

      Batter, Dr. Alfred

      Thurtle, Ernest

      Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)

      Shepherd, Arthur Lewis

      Tinker, John Joseph

      Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)

      Shiels, Dr. Drummond

      Townend, A. E.

      Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)

      Shinwell, E.

      Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.

      Windsor, Walter

      Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)

      Varley, Frank B.

      Wright, W.

      Smillie, Robert

      Walihead, Richard C.

      Smith, Rennie (Penistone)

      Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

      Snail. Harry

      Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney

      Mr. A. Barnes and Mr. T. Henderson.

      Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes after Four o'Clock.